#22 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops

[Deuce Bigalow]

John Havlicek was voted the #21 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops.

20.8 PPG | 6.3 RPG | 4.8 APG

8

[JMT]

Bob Cousy

[Snoop_Cat]

George Mikan

[JellyBean]

George Mikan

[IGotACoolStory]

http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/1007/pistons.1989.photos/images/isiah-letterman.jpg

[Deuce Bigalow]

Dirk is still not up there even though TD, KG, Malone, Barkley are there already. Dirk belongs with the latter 3 of those PFs so he needs to get this spot. I've been voting for Mikan the last 3 times but to no avail.
Dirk Nowitzki is my vote.

NBA Champion
NBA Finals MVP
NBA Most valuable Player
26-10-3 Playoff average

[Wally450]

Read up a little bit on Zeke, so he's my vote.

[EnoughSaid]

I'm gonna go head and vote for the German UBOAT, Dirk Nowitzki. :applause:

[DTreats]

This shit is so stupid, Isaiah Thomas is a top 15 player in NBA history

[ThatCoolKid]

Sabonis

[Heavincent]

Pippen

[fpliii]

to be honest, it looks like this list might be fine (aside from the order) through the top 30

the voting in these polls is always going to be weird, but if you look at it as a list of guys who are in the top 50 all-time that just happened to be voted in the order in which they were nominated rather than an exact ranking, it's not bad

[Raz]

George Mikan

[MasterDurant24]

Zeke

[StateOfMind12]

The credibility of this list has officially been tarnished. Havlicek over Dirk? Really. :facepalm

I'll still vote and my vote is Dirk as it has been for like the past 4-5 votes/threads.

[Sarcastic]

Isiah Thomas.

[Mr Know It All]

Such disrespect to Dirk at this point, it's quite laughable. The list is void.

[WillC]

George Mikan.

Voted the best player of the first half of the 20th century and arguably one of the most dominant players ever relative to his peers.

Mikan was a far bigger star in his time than Nowitzki or Isiah were in theirs.

Bob Cousy runs him close though.

[MiamiThrice]

My vote will go towards Horsecock Nowitzki. ****ing joke that he hasn't been picked yet.

[ThatCoolKid]

Sabonis

[kurple]

Zeke for the 3rd time

stop underrating this little man

dirk can **** off

[Duncan21formvp]

David Robinson

[sipitri]

Dirk

[ScalabrineStan]

Mikan

[Heilige]

George Mikan

[Eric Cartman]

http://psychstateofmind.com/wp-content/themes/duotive-three/includes/timthumb.php%3Fsrc%3D/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/dirk-normal-hat.jpg%26h%3D300%26w%3D630%26zc%3D1%26q%3D100

[Deuce Bigalow]

Dirk was 2nd in the #20 voting, then he was tied for 3rd for #21 voting.
Kind of like the Bird-Wilt situation on #4 and #5 where Wilt had more votes than Bird on #4, but Bird won the #5 voting.

[magnax1]

David robinson

[dyna]

David Robinson

[Ancient Legend]

Isiah Thomas

[po3try]

Nowitzki!

[Deuce Bigalow]

Nowitzki!
Who was the best player on the 09 and 10 Lakers?

[Mirko Cro Cop]

Dirk NOwitzki

[nycelt84]

George Mikan

[Freedom Kid7]

Screw it, as much as I wanna vote Zeke, I'm voting Dirk. I'd be pissed if he wasn't in the top 25.

[Coffee Black]

If there is one thing to learn from this list, it is the main trends in the opinions of the ISH posters.

I vote Mikan.

[pauk]

I feel its between these guys here...


................D-ROB......DIRK......ISIAH....GARNETT....
MVP..............1............1............0...... .......1..........
FMVP............0............1............1....... .......0.........
CHAMP..........2............1............2........ ......1........
ROTY...........Yes.........No..........No......... ...No........
DPOY............1............0............0....... .......1........
1st All-NBA....4............4............3..............4. ........
1st All-Def.....4............0............0..............9 .........
All-Star........10..........11...........12........... .14.........


Isiah & Dirk had by far the better championship runs as D-Rob & Garnett were really not the best players in those championship teams nor were they that productive-dominant as Isiah & Dirk were in those championship playoff runs....

Meanwhile D-Rob & Garnett in their primes were probably better overall individual talents, especially defensively, the defensive accolades speak for themselves....

Close, but I am leaning towards Isiah & Dirk... if it has to be one of them then i say Dirk Nowitzki, he has 1 MVP compared to Isiah and i feel Dirk had a better playoff championship run especially with the competition he was facing...

I vote DIRK NOWITZKI...

[Round Mound]

Scottie Pippen
Rick Barry
John Stockton

[Colbertnation64]

George Mikan

[KOBE143]

David "The Admiral" Robinson

[pauk]

If there is one thing to learn from this list, it is the main trends in the opinions of the ISH posters.

I vote Mikan.

He had one EXTREMLY short career and the only tagged "NBA" accomplishments he has is 5 x BAA/NBA Championships, 1 x NBA All-Star MVP, 6 all-BAA/NBA, 4 x NBA allstar...... and his statistical totals were ridicilously low....... What about NBL accomplishments? Do we count that as the NBA before the merger? Does the fact of him being probably the first NBA pioneer give him a bonus, by how much? What about his era? So many questions, so little time....

Mikan is a very acquired subject, extremly mindbogling to value & rank correctly.... especially compared to players such as in this case Dirk, Robinson, Isiah, Garnett who have done nothing but strictly advancing NBA accomplishments in much longer NBA careers in a much more evolved & competitive era...

[Colbertnation64]

He had one EXTREMLY short career and the only tagged "NBA" accomplishments he has is 5 x BAA/NBA Championships, 1 x NBA All-Star MVP, 6 all-BAA/NBA, 4 x NBA allstar...... his statistical totals were extremly low but his averages were fantastic....... What about NBL accomplishments? Do we count that as the NBA before the merger? Does the fact of him being probably the first NBA pioneer give him a bonus, by how much? What about his era? So many questions, so little time....

Mikan is a very acquired subject, extremly mindbogling to value & rank correctly.... especially compared to players such as in this case Dirk, Robinson, Isiah, Garnett who have done nothing but strictly advancing NBA accomplishments in much longer NBA careers in a much more evolved & competitive era...

Oh wow, all he did in the NBA was lead a team offensively and defensively to 5 NBA championships while being considered hands down the best player in the league for most if not all all of those runs?

[pauk]

Oh wow, all he did in the NBA was lead a team offensively and defensively to 5 NBA championships while being considered hands down the best player in the league for most if not all all of those runs?

Exactly... thats all he did...

What about longevity and the accomplishments THAT gives? He has...

4 x NBA All-Star
6 x All-NBA team
1 x All-Star MVP

10-11000 pts
4000 rbs
1000 asts

Do we maybe count his NBL accomplishments as NBA before the merger?

I am no critic, for me its just extremly mindbogling to rank him correctly on my list....

[Colbertnation64]

Exactly... thats all he did...

What about longevity and the accomplishments THAT gives? He has...

4 x NBA All-Star
6 x All-NBA team
1 x All-Star MVP

10-11000 pts
4000 rbs
1000 asts

Do we maybe count his NBL accomplishments as NBA before the merger?

I am no critic, for me its just extremly mindbogling to rank him correctly on my list....
Just for reference

Rebounds and the all-star game didn't start until the 1951 season.

No MVPs, no final MVPs. No defensive teams, no defensive player of the year award, only 1 all nba team. It makes his resume look much more bare than it would have been otherwise. Realistically you're looking at 3-4 MVPs, 4-5 Finals MVPs, a Rookie of the Year, 3 more all star games, some all defensive teams and possibly a DPOY to throw on top of that.

So something conservative like this(he could've had more MVPs but this is the bottom end of an estimate)

5 Championships
5 Finals MVPs
3 MVPs
6 All NBA Teams
6 All Defensive Team
1 Rookie of the year
6 All Stars
1 Defensive player of the year.

Also had killer instinct, he WANTED and NEEDED the ball in the closing moments. He'd will his team to win. You don't lead your team to 5 championships in 7 years in any era unless you've got killer instinct.


All while helping modernize the NBA, that's not top 20? Not to mention that's in 7 seasons...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Exactly... thats all he did...

What about longevity and the accomplishments THAT gives? He has...

4 x NBA All-Star
6 x All-NBA team
1 x All-Star MVP

10-11000 pts
4000 rbs
1000 asts

Do we maybe count his NBL accomplishments as NBA before the merger?

I am no critic, for me its just extremly mindbogling to rank him correctly on my list....
Allstar teams were not selected until 1951
MVP awards were not awarded until 1956
Finals MVPs were not awarded until 1969

Mikan would have more Allstar selections, at least multiple MVPs, and 5 Finals MVPs.

With a resume like that, who cares about longevity.

[BlackVVaves]

I feel its between these guys here...


................D-ROB......DIRK......ISIAH....GARNETT....
MVP..............1............1............0...... .......1..........
FMVP............0............1............1....... .......0.........
CHAMP..........2............1............2........ ......1........
ROTY...........Yes.........No..........No......... ...No........
DPOY............1............0............0....... .......1........
1st All-NBA....4............4............3..............4. ........
1st All-Def.....4............0............0..............9 .........
All-Star........10..........11...........12........... .14.........


Isiah & Dirk had by far the better championship runs as D-Rob & Garnett were really not the best players in those championship teams nor were they that productive-dominant as Isiah & Dirk were in those championship playoff runs....

Meanwhile D-Rob & Garnett in their primes were probably better overall individual talents, especially defensively, the defensive accolades speak for themselves....

Close, but I am leaning towards Isiah & Dirk... if it has to be one of them then i say Dirk Nowitzki, he has 1 MVP compared to Isiah and i feel Dirk had a better playoff championship run especially with the competition he was facing...

I vote DIRK NOWITZKI...

:crazysam:

[pauk]

Just for reference

Rebounds and the all-star game didn't start until the 1951 season.

No MVPs, no final MVPs. No defensive teams, no defensive player of the year award, only 1 all nba team. It makes his resume look much more bare than it would have been otherwise. Realistically you're looking at 3-4 MVPs, 4-5 Finals MVPs, a Rookie of the Year, 3 more all star games, some all defensive teams and possibly a DPOY to throw on top of that.

So something conservative like this(he could've had more MVPs but this is the bottom end of an estimate)

5 Championships
5 Finals MVPs
3 MVPs
6 All NBA Teams
6 All Defensive Team
1 Rookie of the year
6 All Stars
1 Defensive player of the year.



All while helping modernize the NBA, that's not top 20? Not to mention that's in 7 seasons...

Thats exactly what i mean, that is hypothetical........ with those accomplishments he would be #3 or something of all time in my list.... kindof like when talking about Bill Russell and how many FMVP/DPOYs he would have if those accomplishments did exist at that time, in which if he would have he would be the undisputed GOAT by far (considering he was the best player in his team and often the best defensive player in the NBA)....

[rhythmic]

Why is Pauk naming Garnett? He's already been voted in.
Anyways, I vote for Mikan again.

[pauk]

:crazysam:

There was no undisputed best player, leader, mvp, alpha or whatever you want to call it in that team... or was it?

[Colbertnation64]

Allstar teams were not selected until 1951
MVP awards were not awarded until 1956
Finals MVPs were not awarded until 1969

Mikan would have more Allstar selections, at least multiple MVPs, and 5 Finals MVPs.

With a resume like that, who cares about longevity.
Pretty much exactly what I'm saying. He domination of the NBA(respective of era) is right at the top.

[pauk]

Why is Pauk naming Garnett? He's already been voted in.
Anyways, I vote for Mikan again.

Just for the comparasants sake.

[rhythmic]

Just for the comparasants sake, my top 25 looks different.

:cheers:

[DatAsh]

George Mikan

[KG215]

Thats exactly what i mean, that is hypothetical........ with those accomplishments he would be #3 or something of all time in my list.... kindof like when talking about Bill Russell and how many FMVP/DPOYs he would have if those accomplishments did exist at that time, in which if he would have he would be the undisputed GOAT by far (considering he was the best player in his team and often the best defensive player in the NBA)....

And the only reason Mikan doesn't have those awards is because they didn't exist. How hard is that to understand? Why should he be penalized for a "bare" resume due to a bunch of the things that bolster other resumes not existing during his career?

God, did you not learn anything from that LeBron/West/Oscar debate about POTM, All-Defense Teams, and DPOY?

[Sarcastic]

Isiah Thomas winning not 1, but 2 rings during the Magic/Bird/Jordan era is way more valuable than any of the awards Robinson and Dirk have. On top of that he had 4 consecutive 20/10 seasons as a point guard. Magic Johnson only had 3 in his whole career. The only other point guard to do that was Oscar Robertson.

[pauk]

Pretty much exactly what I'm saying. He domination of the NBA(respective of era) is right at the top.


And the only reason Mikan doesn't have those awards is because they didn't exist. How hard is that to understand? Why should he be penalized for a "bare" resume due to a bunch of the things that bolster other resumes not existing during his career?

God, did you not learn anything from that LeBron/West/Oscar debate about POTM, All-Defense Teams, and DPOY?


Do we rank them by hypothetics, myths and legends or the actual awards they actualy yield... that is the million dollar question....

If your answer is hypothetics, then Bill Russell is the undisputed GOAT and George Mikan is probably top 5 of all time.

If your answer is no, then Bill Russell is still in the top 10 but George Mikan is faaaaar away from top 5...

How do you plead?

[BlackVVaves]

There was no undisputed best player, leader, mvp or whatever you want to call it in that team... or was it?

Garnett was the best player, most valuable individual, and undisputed leader of the Celtics until the latter part of the 2010-2011 season.

On that 2008 championship team? Garnett was the guy.

Pierce was awarded the FMVP, but that team, as blasphemous as it may have seemed to Boston fans at that time (considering Pierce's long and brittle tenure with the Celtics organization) was more impacted by Garnett's post-peak prowess than anyone else.

Did you not watch the NBA back then? Serious question, requesting an honest answer.

[BlackVVaves]

And the only reason Mikan doesn't have those awards is because they didn't exist. How hard is that to understand? Why should he be penalized for a "bare" resume due to a bunch of the things that bolster other resumes not existing during his career?

God, did you not learn anything from that LeBron/West/Oscar debate about POTM, All-Defense Teams, and DPOY?

Apparently not.

[ganja0710]

it was close between dirk, d-rob and zeke. but ill go with dirk.

[Sarcastic]

Do we rank them by hypothetics, myths and legends or the actual awards they actualy yield... that is the million dollar question....

If your answer hypothetics, then Bill Russell is the undisputed GOAT and George Mikan is probably top 5 of all time.

If your answer is no, then Bill Russell is still in the top 10 but George Mikan is faaaaar away...

That's the problem with using awards as your basis to form your opinions. Almost all these awards were not always available to every player.


It's like saying Cy Young was not a good pitcher because he never won a Cy Young award.

[fpliii]

Do we rank them by hypothetics, myths and legends or the actual awards they actualy yield... that is the million dollar question....

If your answer is hypothetics, then Bill Russell is the undisputed GOAT and George Mikan is probably top 5 of all time.

If your answer is no, then Bill Russell is still in the top 10 but George Mikan is faaaaar away from top 5...

well, think about it this way

if one thinks of the MVP and Finals MVP as valuable awards, then they must measure something, right?

if one knows what they're measuring, then they must reflect something done on the court

all hypothetical MVPs and Finals MVPs do is label great achievements during the regular season and Finals respectively, just as actual MVPs and Finals MVPs do

so it has nothing to do with actual awards, but more to do with noting the accomplishments that the aforementioned awards signify

at least that's my take

[KG215]

Do we rank them by hypothetics, myths and legends or the actual awards they actualy yield... that is the million dollar question....

If your answer is hypothetics, then Bill Russell is the undisputed GOAT and George Mikan is probably top 5 of all time.

If your answer is no, then Bill Russell is still in the top 10 but George Mikan is faaaaar away from top 5...

How do you plead?

No, you just don't use those accolades to compare players and make a case for a player over another player who didn't even have the opportunity to win the award. Just like you should judge a player for what he did in his era, and not what he could or couldn't have done in a different era, you don't penalize a player for not having an award or more accolades when sai accolades weren't available during his career.

No one said anything about hypothetical situations. You're the one knocking Mikan for not having more All-Star game appearances (and I guess Finals MVPs) even though one didn't exist during his career and the other was only around the last few years of his career.

[pauk]

Garnett was the best player, most valuable individual, and undisputed leader of the Celtics until the latter part of the 2010-2011 season.

On that 2008 championship team? Garnett was the guy.

Pierce was awarded the FMVP, but that team, as blasphemous as it may have seemed to Boston fans at that time (considering Pierce's long and brittle tenure with the Celtics organization) was more impacted by Garnett's post-peak prowess than anyone else.

Did you not watch the NBA back then? Serious question, requesting an honest answer.

That is your opinion.... my opinion is that Paul Pierce & Kevin Garnett were the best players on that team.... that nobody really significantly stood out as the best player in that team...

We agree to disagree then...

[fpliii]

No, you just don't use those accolades to compare players and make a case for a player over another player who didn't even have the opportunity to win the award. Just like you should judge a player for what he did in his era, and not what he could or couldn't have done in a different era, you don't penalize a player for not having an award or more accolades when sai accolades weren't available during his career.

No one said anything about hypothetical situations. You're the one knocking Mikan for not having more All-Star game appearances (and I guess Finals MVPs) even though one didn't exist during his career and the other was only around the last few years of his career.

another issue is the lack of DPOYs and all-defensive teams during Russell's era

[pauk]

No, you just don't use those accolades to compare players and make a case for a player over another player who didn't even have the opportunity to win the award. Just like you should judge a player for what he did in his era, and not what he could or couldn't have done in a different era, you don't penalize a player for not having an award or more accolades when sai accolades weren't available during his career.

No one said anything about hypothetical situations. You're the one knocking Mikan for not having more All-Star game appearances (and I guess Finals MVPs) even though one didn't exist during his career and the other was only around the last few years of his career.

You dont get it do you? We are not talking about individuals careers here, we are talking about all time rankings... in which all players are FORCED to be compared to all players from any eras in order to assume their rightful place on the rankings....

I am not knocking on anybody, i am just asking... how do we do this?!?? :confusedshrug:

[Deuce Bigalow]

You dont get it do you? We are not talking about individuals careers here, we are talking about all time rankings... in which all players are FORCED to be compared to all players from any eras in order to assume their rightful place on the rankings....

I am not knocking on anybody, i am just asking... how do we do this?!?? :confusedshrug:
We are just saying to not compare certain accolades of someone who played at a time in which that award never exsisted.

[KG215]

I am not knocking on anybody, i am just asking... how do we do this?!?? :confusedshrug:
It kind of sounds like to me that's what you're doing.



Thats exactly what i mean, that is hypothetical........ with those accomplishments he would be #3 or something of all time in my list.... kindof like when talking about Bill Russell and how many FMVP/DPOYs he would have if those accomplishments did exist at that time, in which if he would have he would be the undisputed GOAT by far (considering he was the best player in his team and often the best defensive player in the NBA)....
You say he would be "#3 or something of all time in my list" if he had all those accomplishments. He doesn't have those accomplishments because they didn't exist, not because he wasn't deserving. If you would think so highly of him with those accomplishments, then why can't you think as highly of him for what he did accomplish without those accolades due to them not existing?

I'm not saying vote for Mikan here, but don't say you would rank someone as high as #3 all-time with certain accolades, but act confused on what to do with him because he doesn't have the accolades that weren't available to him during his career.


You dont get it do you? We are not talking about individuals careers here, we are talking about all time rankings... in which all players are FORCED to be compared to all players from any eras in order to assume their rightful place on the rankings....
Yes, we're comparing careers of players from different eras. A player from the 50s, 60s, and even 70s isn't going to have as impressive of a resume as one from the 80s, 90s, and 00s due to not being afforded the same opportunity to win awards that weren't made available until after they retired.

[lilblingy]

Dirk

[The Choken One]

"I vote LeBron. He's so good he should be on the list twice."-Pauk

[KG215]

another issue is the lack of DPOYs and all-defensive teams during Russell's era

Right. And who knows how many DPOYs, All-Defense 1st teams, and Finals MVPs Russell would have if they did exist. But pauk is saying if he did have all of those, he'd be the undisputed GOAT. Why? Does the attachment of those awards all of a sudden make him a better player and what he did achieve look better? No. Anyone that knows the history of the NBA understands that Russell was the anchor for 11 championship teams and arguably the greatest defensive player of all-time. If he did have something like 10 or 11 Finals MVPs, 12 or 13 All-Defense 1st teams, and 10 DPOYs wouldn't change anything for me. He's still the same player and his career would would still look the exact same.

[rhythmic]

Right. And who knows how many DPOYs, All-Defense 1st teams, and Finals MVPs Russell would have if they did exist. But pauk is saying if he did have all of those, he'd be the undisputed GOAT. Why? Does the attachment of those awards all of a sudden make him a better player and what he did achieve look better? No. Anyone that knows the history of the NBA understands that Russell was the anchor for 11 championship teams and arguably the greatest defensive player of all-time. If he did have something like 10 or 11 Finals MVPs, 12 or 13 All-Defense 1st teams, and 10 DPOYs wouldn't change anything for me. He's still the same player and his career would would still look the exact same.

It's just easier for people who don't really understand the game to compare player A and player B. I usually just ignore people who spoon feed me straight stats as their sole reasoning.

[RRR3]

"I vote LeBron. He's so good he should be on the list twice."-Pauk
http://i36.tinypic.com/1ptcn5.jpg

[fpliii]

Right. And who knows how many DPOYs, All-Defense 1st teams, and Finals MVPs Russell would have if they did exist. But pauk is saying if he did have all of those, he'd be the undisputed GOAT. Why? Does the attachment of those awards all of a sudden make him a better player and what he did achieve look better? No. Anyone that knows the history of the NBA understands that Russell was the anchor for 11 championship teams and arguably the greatest defensive player of all-time. If he did have something like 10 or 11 Finals MVPs, 12 or 13 All-Defense 1st teams, and 10 DPOYs wouldn't change anything for me. He's still the same player and his career would would still look the exact same.

not speaking of Pauk per se (since I haven't had many exchanges with him), but most posters on here sometimes let their 'stanning' totally take over their posting on this board

when people try to have discussions about the game instead of pushing meaningless agendas, we actually have some conversation on this board; I'm certain that every individual posting on this board has a large volume of useful knowledge to impart on the community, but some people take this 'gawd/hater' stuff (particularly that pertaining to Kobe, LeBron, but other players as well) waaaaay too far, to the point where it detracts from the actual dialogue

[Horatio33]

Sam jones.

[pauk]

We are just saying to not compare certain accolades of someone who played at a time in which that award never exsisted.

So you mean to say that if we are to compare lets say Larry Bird to George Mikan we can compare only championships since those are the only significant accolades both could deploy.... in which Mikan would come out on top considering not only did Mikan win more championships but he was the best player on both ends of the floor in his team while also being the best player in the NBA at that time...

Russell should be GOAT because of the FMVPs/DPOYs he hypothetically achieved...
Mikan should be a top 5 player because of the FMVPs/MVPs/DPOYs he hypothetically achieved...

Does it work like that? It certainly doesnt if you take a look at any top 50 list existing today.... including this one we just made... where majority were fully aware of these hypothetical accomplishments but did NOT vote for the hypothetical career, but chose to vote for the authentic ones....

[fpliii]

So you mean to say that if we are to compare lets say Larry Bird to George Mikan we can compare only championships since those are the only significant accolades both could deploy.... in which Mikan would come out on top considering not only did Mikan win more championships but he was the best player on both ends of the floor in his team while also being the best player in the NBA at that time...

Russell should be GOAT because of the FMVPs/DPOYs he hypothetically achieved...
Mikan should be a top 5 player because of the FMVPs/MVPs/DPOYs he hypothetically achieved...

Does it work like that? It certainly doesnt if you take a look at any top 50 list existing today.... including this one we just made...

stats (including DRtg for defensive anchors after the shot clock)

context (number of playoff series needed to win a title, level of competition)

role on team

performance in deep playoff runs that didn't result in championships

peak dominance

longevity

it's not the awards that make players great, but what they accomplished to earn those awards (that's why I started the retroactive Finals MVP award project, so we can all come to a consensus)

[pauk]

stats (including DRtg for defensive anchors after the shot clock)

context (number of playoff series needed to win a title, level of competition)

role on team

performance in deep playoff runs that didn't result in championships

peak dominance

longevity

it's not the awards that make players great, but what they accomplished to earn those awards (that's why I started the retroactive Finals MVP award project, so we can all come to a consensus)

I agree...

[fpliii]

I agree...

:cheers:

[KG215]

Russell should be GOAT because of the FMVPs/DPOYs he hypothetically achieved...
Mikan should be a top 5 player because of the FMVPs/MVPs/DPOYs he hypothetically achieved...

Does it work like that? It certainly doesnt if you take a look at any top 50 list existing today.... including this one we just made... where majority were fully aware of these hypothetical accomplishments but did NOT vote for the hypothetical career, but chose to vote for the authentic ones....
There are so many holes in this logic. Why, all of a sudden, would Russell or Mikan be better players if they could list 5+ Finals MVPs, multiple DPOY awards, ect. on their resume? They're still the same player. Nothing about their legacy would change just because they could list more accolades on their resume.

If there's uneducated people voting that don't realize this, that's their problem. I feel very confident that the knowledgeable people on ISH would still vote for Russell in the 2-5 range somewhere, even if he did have 10 or 11 Finals MVPs and who knows how many DPOYs. The knowledgeable posters know he was the anchor for those 11 championship teams and arguably the greatest defensive player in NBA history. Same with Mikan.

[pauk]

:cheers:

But even with those criterias, how do we go forth to compare lets say Larry Bird & Goerge Mikan again.... here is how i see it with those criterias (where awards are not important)... very quickly :

Stats = Mikan had much better stats...

Context = Mikan won 5 championships as the best player in the NBA, best player in his team on both ends of the floor

Role on team = Both Mikan & Bird were the best players in their teams...

Performance in deep playoff runs that didn't result in championships = Mikan did much better...

Peak dominance = Mikan takes this again...

Longevity = Bird takes this...

So should Mikan be ranked over Larry Bird.. :)

[pauk]

There are so many holes in this logic. Why, all of a sudden, would Russell or Mikan be better players if they could list 5+ Finals MVPs, multiple DPOY awards, ect. on their resume? They're still the same player. Nothing about their legacy would change just because they could list more accolades on their resume.

If there's uneducated people voting that don't realize this, that's their problem. I feel very confident that the knowledgeable people on ISH would still vote for Russell in the 2-5 range somewhere, even if he did have 10 or 11 Finals MVPs and who knows how many DPOYs. The knowledgeable posters know he was the anchor for those 11 championship teams and arguably the greatest defensive player in NBA history. Same with Mikan.

Thats my exact point..

[Deuce Bigalow]

So you mean to say that if we are to compare lets say Larry Bird to George Mikan we can compare only championships since those are the only significant accolades both could deploy.... in which Mikan would come out on top considering not only did Mikan win more championships but he was the best player on both ends of the floor in his team while also being the best player in the NBA at that time...

Russell should be GOAT because of the FMVPs/DPOYs he hypothetically achieved...
Mikan should be a top 5 player because of the FMVPs/MVPs/DPOYs he hypothetically achieved...

Does it work like that? It certainly doesnt if you take a look at any top 50 list existing today.... including this one we just made... where majority were fully aware of these hypothetical accomplishments but did NOT vote for the hypothetical career, but chose to vote for the authentic ones....
Mikan would be a top 10 player, maybe even better if he had done what he did in the 60s. It's just he accomplished this in a...let's just be honest, weak era. That is why he isn't ranked over Bird, ect even though he has the better resume (if you understand that FMVPs and MVPs didn't exist in his time). The era is questionable. And to be honest I don't understand why it doesn't also apply to Wilt/Russ since they played in a weaker era as well, but I guess people think it's like today. The league is so much different today than the 60s, you can see this simply by watching clips of that era.

[Deuce Bigalow]

stats (including DRtg for defensive anchors after the shot clock)

context (number of playoff series needed to win a title, level of competition)

role on team

performance in deep playoff runs that didn't result in championships

peak dominance

longevity

it's not the awards that make players great, but what they accomplished to earn those awards (that's why I started the retroactive Finals MVP award project, so we can all come to a consensus)
fpliii, you still think Kobe's better than Shaq all-time?

[fpliii]

But even with those criterias, how do we go forth to compare lets say Larry Bird & Goerge Mikan again.... here is how i see it with those criterias (where awards are not important)... very quickly :

Stats = Mikan had much better stats...

Context = Mikan won 5 championships as the best player in the NBA, best player in his team on both ends of the floor

Role on team = Both Mikan & Bird were the best players in their teams...

Performance in deep playoff runs that didn't result in championships = Mikan did much better...

Peak dominance = Mikan takes this again...

Longevity = Bird takes this...

So should Mikan be ranked over Larry Bird.. :)

well those factors aren't weighted equally (stats and context I disagree in particular, since there were only a handful of teams and Mikan played before the shot clock...he literally didn't do anything of note in the modern game)

also, in his championship seasons (BAA/NBA, I don't have the NBL info in front of me at the moment):

1949: (8 of 12 made playoffs) best of 3 WDF, best of 7 Finals
1950: (12 of 17) best of 3 central semis, best of 3 CDF, best of 3 semis, best of 7 Finals
1952: (8 of 10) best of 3 west semis, best of 5 WDF, best of 7 Finals
1953: (8 of 10) best of 3 west semis, best of 5 WDF, best of 7 Finals
1954: (6 of 9) 3 games west round robin, best of 3 WDF, best of 7 Finals

it was a different game back then; Russell had to win at least two seven game series (3 in his last four years, after Philly started winning the division), Bird had to win three seven game series, and later a mini series as well to start

when the league started, it wasn't even the highest level of basketball with regards to attracting talent, AAU was king (with college close behind the NBA/BAA/NBL)...really, I don't give much weight before the shot clock was introduced since it saved the game

I don't have a problem with those who rank Mikan highly (G.O.A.T is one guy, and has made a great case), but I just don't have him there

of the guys on the 35th anniversary team:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_35th_Anniversary_Team

which was published at the beginning of what most consider the modern era, Mikan IMO is the only one who wouldn't have a chance to compete in today's game, with proper diet/training (I don't think he'd be a star in the 60s either, but that's just me)

[fpliii]

fpliii, you still think Kobe's better than Shaq all-time?

I keep going back and forth on this, but all-time rankings mean little to me since they're not set in stone

I'm going Shaq at the present, but the new hand-checking guidelines, 5 seconds back to the basket, and zone defenses, among others have pushed the game away from the basket and made it a league of athletic wing players

there's no way in hell a center, even Shaq, is going to dominate today's game though

EDIT: the one problem is I have an issue putting Shaq ahead of Hakeem and Duncan, so it's hard to say he's better than Kobe who I think is probably better than the other two

very difficult stuff

[iamgine]

I think it's futile to rank players based on ability across eras and the # of championships won. Nikola Pekovic is 100x better than Mikan. Hakeem/Moses/Drob/Ewing/etc would've won a lot more championships had they played with Phil/Pippen/Rodman.

[pauk]

As opposed to what we have been talking about here, think about it, there is a reason why there is no official ranking list. Its fun to talk about and cool if it would exist, but it is really impossible to rank players accordingly & accurately without complaint, there is just so many different opinions (and credible at that).... a system of requirements/criterias would have to be created, a point system.. and even that would have many holes in it... its impossible...

All-time rankings are just personal lists based on criterias and a little bit of bias maybe... what this ISH ranking voting does is just shows what majority of us lean towards, still interesting.. :)

[Dragonyeuw]

Looking at the bottom half of these rankings thus far, Garnett stands out to me as being too high especially since, at this stage in this ISH all-time listings, Dirk at best can be ranked #22. Garnett's a better two-way player, but in terms of career, impact, leadership and intangibles I really don't feel like Garnett is 6 places( minimum) ahead of Dirk. For the totality of their career, I don't think there's much seperation ranking-wise( like Malone-Barkley) so if Garnett is #16, then Dirk at worst should have been #19 ( note, IMO both those rankings are too high for the respective player. I'm simply saying that if Garnett is #16, Dirk shouldn't be 'that' far behind).

Right now I'm stuck between Isiah and Dirk, but I'm going with the latter because he's been the one constant for the Mavs over a decade and they've always been a very good to great team even amidst several major roster moves. I don't think the 2011 team was really all that great when you look at the roster, a solid core of veterans but Dirk was the lone star and he played out of his mind in the 2011 playoffs.

I go with Dirk at #22.

[alenleomessi]

pistol pete

[Alan Ogg]

Isiah was only top 5 in MVP voting once in his career. And that year, he came in 5th. My vote goes to Dirk.

[creepingdeath]

Dirk

[BoutPractice]

Dirk.

[pegasus]

Dirk!:rant

[Deuce Bigalow]

#22 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops Voting

18- Dirk Nowitzki
10- George Mikan
7- Isiah Thomas
4- David Robinson
1- Bob Cousy
1- Scottie Pippen
1- Sam Jones
1- Pete Maravich

[Rnbizzle]

Dirk

[JellyBean]

What is the criteria for this ISH top 100 NBA Player of All-Time anyway? Are we looking at current players and their stats, their contribution to their team? Just wondering.

[JellyBean]

Current Results

16- Dirk Nowitzki
10- George Mikan
7- Isiah Thomas
4- David Robinson
1- Bob Cousy
1- Scottie Pippen
1- Sam Jones
1- Pete Maravich

Dirk over Pippen, Mikan, D-Robinson? :confusedshrug:

[Deuce Bigalow]

What is the criteria for this ISH top 100 NBA Player of All-Time anyway? Are we looking at current players and their stats, their contribution to their team? Just wondering.
I would guess people use everything to form their opinion, well at least they should.
Individual dominance, team success, accolades, prime, peak, intangibles, impact, stats, ect.

[Sakkreth]

Dirk

[JellyBean]

I would guess people use everything to form their opinion, well at least they should.
Individual dominance, team success, accolades, prime, peak, intangibles, impact, stats, ect.

Cool. Thanks. At least now I have a better understanding of how the top 100 is shaping up. Thanks again.

[fsvr54]

george mikan

[DaHeezy]

Zeke

[chips93]

the voting for this one finished, dirk got it

this is the thread for the 23rd best player

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=276194