Is Dwight Howard for Arron Afflalo and second round picks the worst trade of all time

[Nick Young]

I seriously can't remember any trade worse than D12 for Arron Afflalo and late round draft picks.

Pau for Kwame wasnt that bad, as Marc Gasol (whom many call a better player than Pau) +$10million in expiring cap space for a PF who has never won a single playoff game does not seem like a ripoff.

But D12 the best center in the league for a roleplayer shooting guard, I dont think a trade has ever been that bad.

Maybe Rashard Lewis for Gilbert Arenas, simply because both teams lost badly in that one.

The Magic are a poorly run organization.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Vince Carter trade to NJ

[SevereUpInHere]

I seriously can't remember any trade worse than D12 for Arron Afflalo and late round draft picks.

Pau for Kwame wasnt that bad, as Marc Gasol (whom many call a better player than Pau) +$10million in expiring cap space for a PF who has never won a single playoff game does not seem like a ripoff.

But D12 the best center in the league for a roleplayer shooting guard, I dont think a trade has ever been that bad.

Maybe Rashard Lewis for Gilbert Arenas, simply because both teams lost badly in that one.

The Magic are a poorly run organization.

It has to be. If it was a straight up Howard-Bynum swap, it would have made sense. What makes it worse is the other deals they could have got instead. Plus they didn't offload any bad contracts. Truly horrible. I feel bad for Magic fans.

[bagelred]

It has to be. If it was a straight up Howard-Bynum swap, it would have made sense. What makes it worse is the other deals they could have got instead. Plus they didn't offload any bad contracts. Truly horrible. I feel bad for Magic fans.

Yup. There's really no defending this trade. I understand Magic didn't want expensive "talent" back, but they didn't even get good draft picks or any cap space. Honestly, this is the most baffling trade. I'm surprised the media isn't going off on Orlando even more, but they are entranced with Howard to Lakers...so........

[bfrombleacher]

or any cap space

I thought they got quite a bit of cap space.

[Pra]

I thought they got quite a bit of cap space.

Indeed. Howard, Richardson, Duhon

Eyenga, Ayon and Vucevic... can all be cut in the 2013-2014 season.

So... 2nd round picks + AA and Big Al for 1 season.. (he can be bought out in 2013-2014)

1 yr left on Hedo in 2013-2014... so they have cap relief now, and next off season. In the 2014-2015 season they could sign 2 superstars lol.

[All Net]

I thought they got quite a bit of cap space.

They would of got more cap space if they took the Houston deal who were giving them 12 Milllion worth of cap space

For trading a top 2-3 player it was pretty bad for the magic.

[niko]

People need to remember, we don't know the Houston deal. Houston doesn't seem particularly upset the trade did not happen. It's possible the Houston deal was utter crap too. Or non existant. Or out there but the owner not signing off.

I'm not arguing the trade was good, but i can't say they took the worse of the two deals. My criticism would be after waiting seemingly forever, it felt like they weren't willing to wait another week or two to squeeze more.

[All Net]

People need to remember, we don't know the Houston deal. Houston doesn't seem particularly upset the trade did not happen. It's possible the Houston deal was utter crap too. Or non existant. Or out there but the owner not signing off.

I'm not arguing the trade was good, but i can't say they took the worse of the two deals. My criticism would be after waiting seemingly forever, it felt like they weren't willing to wait another week or two to squeeze more.

Well if the only two options was this or the nets deal what else could they do? 90% of teams were put off due to dwights demands.

[Kblaze8855]

It is awful....but looking at history?

Even ignoring situations where a young guy who went on to be a star was traded for nothing(TR dunn for the pick that was Drexler...things like that)...vets..flat out stars...get moved for nothing all the time.


You look at what Wilt, Moses Malone(though it was something of a FA signing compensation), and Bob Mcadoo brought back?

Combine what all 3 were traded for in their primes it doesnt add up to the value of any of them.

AI, VC, and so on more recently? Same deal. Bucks traded Ray in his prime for like 25 games of Gary Payton? Jeff Hornacek was a lot better than people remember but....traded for Charles Barkley in his prime? Its like trading James Harden straight up for like....Wade in 2008.

So many teams just get it raw....no latex no STD check. Its hard to even call trade ideas by fans stupid anymore. How do you say "Why would they take Troy Murphy, and an expiring Kaman with a second round pick for Blake?" when a team accepts a good role player for Dwight Howard.

Cant even expect trades to make sense. Just...hope they do.

[niko]

Well if the only two options was this or the nets deal what else could they do? 90% of teams were put off due to dwights demands.
It seemed like they gave up on Houston too quickly. I thought the Nets deal was horrible, they essentially became the Nets, unfortunately the pre Deron ones.

I don't want to argue from Orlando's side because i really think they could have got more. So i think they failed. But i can't argue the mythical Houston deal was better. The only Houston deal i saw was WOW but Aldridge immediately said the real deal wasn't even a third of that.

[ZenMaster]

Well if the only two options was this or the nets deal what else could they do? 90% of teams were put off due to dwights demands.

Nothing, which is probably why they took the deal.

[niko]

I don't get the Nets perspective, they trade the pick which would have been valuable to possibly get Howard, then tried to get Howard without it, then loaded their cap with JJ and couldn't take salary, then tried to get Howard again (with less flexibility) then signed Hump to a 2 year contract AGAIN thinking they might get Howard.

Combine that with Howard opting in and it's all been very strange.

[G-Funk]

Lakers could had offered Philly Gasol and they would have done it

[niko]

Think about the fact Philly wanted to trade Iguodala, and not only got value, they got a better player. Sixer fans must still be giddy.

[gasolina]

I don't get the Nets perspective, they trade the pick which would have been valuable to possibly get Howard, then tried to get Howard without it, then loaded their cap with JJ and couldn't take salary, then tried to get Howard again (with less flexibility) then signed Hump to a 2 year contract AGAIN thinking they might get Howard.

Combine that with Howard opting in and it's all been very strange.
I guess they didn't want to put all of their eggs in the Howard basket. In the end they extended their own superstar and young star, and added an overpaid 2nd rate all-star. It's better than nothing I guess :D

[niko]

I guess they didn't want to put all of their eggs in the Howard basket. In the end they extended their own superstar and young star, and added an overpaid 2nd rate all-star. It's better than nothing I guess :D
I don't love the Nets moves. I think people think they sucked, and now they are good but you don't get a lot of chances to totally rebuild like they did, and they built a team locked into for 4 years with no title chance and they cockblocked themselves from getting Dwight in order to secure Gerald Wallace of all people (and the guy Portland took with their pick looks like a star in the making).

Lakers, Nuggets and Sixers were the clear winners in all of this, i think when its all said and done Nets, Rockets and Cavs will lament their missed chance. The Magic were going to suck no matter what, if they get the first pick next year no one will care this trade sucked ass.

[KB2009Champ]

They didn't get a lot back but the Magic GM pretty much hinted that the deal wasn't all that it was cracked up to be in the media.

Read something a few days ago that the rockets either offered cap space or their rookies, not both. Think about it from the Rockets standpoint. Why would you take on bad deals and move all your rookies for a rental? No way Dwight stays in Houston.

So imagine being left with the shitty contracts of Duhon, Hedo and Jrich with no Howard, Lamb, Tjones and White? So IMO it makes sense that the Rockets offered one or the other (cap space relief or rookies).

If I'm Orlando I'm looking for both. The deal they did provided that. Granted those picks are protected - that's the part I don't get.

But with the contracts the offloaded and deals that are set to expire next off season and the off season after, Orlando is primed to have the cap space to sign two significant FAs if they chose to do so.

IMO the only real mistake was re-signing Jameer for 3 years.

[gasolina]

I don't love the Nets moves. I think people think they sucked, and now they are good but you don't get a lot of chances to totally rebuild like they did, and they built a team locked into for 4 years with no title chance and they cockblocked themselves from getting Dwight in order to secure Gerald Wallace of all people (and the guy Portland took with their pick looks like a star in the making).

Lakers, Nuggets and Sixers were the clear winners in all of this, i think when its all said and done Nets, Rockets and Cavs will lament their missed chance. The Magic were going to suck no matter what, if they get the first pick next year no one will care this trade sucked ass.
Yep, especially when it took them the three losing seasons to do this. TBH if they drafted well, they could have had a mini OKC with all those high picks

[highwhey]

One thing is clear, orlando needs to clean the house starting with FO executives. Wether the trade was bad or not, they should have surrounded dwight with true talent. You can't expect to keep a top 5 player satisfied without giving him a better team, especially when superteams are forming all around. Kg left minny, lebron and bosh left, even kobe wanted out at one point. Klove already expressed his desire to win(but minny FO has done decent moves as of late).

Stupid, stupid, stupid. Yes, hes imature, left on bad terms, but the FO cant say they did everything in their power to keep him content.

[kurple]

dont hate on Afflalo.. he will surprise a lot of people this year

+ AA wasnt all they got

[gasolina]

they should have surrounded dwight with true talent. You can't expect to keep a top 5 player satisfied without giving him a better team, especially when superteams are forming all around. Kg left minny, lebron and bosh left, even kobe wanted out at one point. Klove already expressed his desire to win(but minny FO has done decent moves as of late).
Orlando just followed Cleveland on how to lose your star in X years. Both teams got good immediately and didn't have a chance to stockpile talent. This resulted in questionable/marginal talent upgrades that didn't pan out.

Sometimes I think it's better to tank for 2-3 years (similar to what Cleveland is doing now) rather than trying to be good asap.

[highwhey]

Orlando just followed Cleveland on how to lose your star in X years. Both teams got good immediately and didn't have a chance to stockpile talent. This resulted in questionable/marginal talent upgrades that didn't pan out.

Sometimes I think it's better to tank for 2-3 years (similar to what Cleveland is doing now) rather than trying to be good asap.
You have a point, especially with them making the finals, still, lakers have been contenders and still manage to make moves. ORL gm should have been on the phone day n night tryin to pull a "magic" trick...theres always desperate teams

[Sarcastic]

#1 Babe Ruth to the Yankees
#2 Dwight Howard for Afflalo

[kurple]

but why are people saying Dwight for Afflalo?

What about Harkless, and the picks?

I'm fine with people leaving Harrington out

[wang4three]

Close, but these things tend to always end horribly. Hilarious that people were laughing at the Nets offer in comparison to this crap.

[niko]

Close, but these things tend to always end horribly. Hilarious that people were laughing at the Nets offer in comparison to this crap.

The Net offer was not better. It meant Orlando was the Nets pre Deron (with Brook coming off a stress fracture as opposed to healthy getting better no doubt Brook) and the picks would have sucked because the Nets would have been great. At what point was the Net offer good?

The Net offer is only good IF your thought is Brook Lopez will be a star. Not could be. WILL BE. Because he is your centerpice for four years.

[wang4three]

The Net offer was not better. It meant Orlando was the Nets pre Deron (with Brook coming off a stress fracture as opposed to healthy getting better no doubt Brook) and the picks would have sucked because the Nets would have been great. At what point was the Net offer good?

The Net offer is only good IF your thought is Brook Lopez will be a star. Not could be. WILL BE. Because he is your centerpice for four years.

They didn't get rid of Hedo or Glen Davis.. I'm sorry, what? They didn't really get any talent back and the best Moe Harkless will be is Richard Jefferson, which is really not that good if you consider that if Marshon Brooks best is probably around the same area if not better. And I LOVE Richard Jefferson.

They took in crap picks--the same crap picks that would've came with the Nets deal.

Pre-Deron Nets is greater than what they have now. There's quite a difference between being the worst team in the league with 10 wins and being the worst team in the league with 20 wins. Either way you get the same ping pong balls, but rebounding from that is way harder and people get fired for poor management like that. Whatever capspace they afforded is retarded considering NO ONE will sign with Orlando to play with that cast of Aron Afflalo and NBDL players. The Bobcats look like the Lakers next to this team.

I'm sorry, they didn't accomplish anything with their trade. Didn't get any real young talent, didn't get any good picks, and didn't clear the contracts they needed to clear. Chris Duhon, Jason Richardson, while bad contracts were still productive players. Hedo Turkoglu? His pre-game ritual is to eat a slice of pizza. Guess what, he's 33 years old and after nearly 1000 games, it shows.

It's not only good if you think Brook Lopez was going to be a superstar. Give me Brook Lopez on a max contract and Marshon Brooks while getting rid of Hedo over Aron Afflalo, Moe Harkless, and keeping Hedo.

[madmax17]

How about Wilt Chamberlin for Paul Neumann, Connie Dierking, Lee Shaffer (who retired rather than play for the Warriors) :D

[DStebb716]

People are ****ing idiots. It wasn't Arron Afflalo and 2nd round picks. It was three first rounders (and there's no guarantee that Philly or Denver won't be first round exits that make those picks between 15-20 or so). Two second rounders, you might find a decent role player in there but those are pretty useless.

But they got one of the better shooters in the game two play the two guard, a good young prospect in Harkless who could be a steal, depth at the forward positions and a very young seven-footer. I like the deal for Orlando, they didn't acquire a terrible contract like Brook Lopez on a max deal, and they got multiple pieces to build around. They also got a shit ton of cap space to potentially make a move in FA.

[niko]

They didn't get rid of Hedo or Glen Davis.. I'm sorry, what? They didn't really get any talent back and the best Moe Harkless will be is Richard Jefferson, which is really not that good if you consider that if Marshon Brooks best is probably around the same area if not better. And I LOVE Richard Jefferson.

They took in crap picks--the same crap picks that would've came with the Nets deal.

Pre-Deron Nets is greater than what they have now. There's quite a difference between being the worst team in the league with 10 wins and being the worst team in the league with 20 wins. Either way you get the same ping pong balls, but rebounding from that is way harder and people get fired for poor management like that. Whatever capspace they afforded is retarded considering NO ONE will sign with Orlando to play with that cast of Aron Afflalo and NBDL players. The Bobcats look like the Lakers next to this team.

I'm sorry, they didn't accomplish anything with their trade. Didn't get any real young talent, didn't get any good picks, and didn't clear the contracts they needed to clear. Chris Duhon, Jason Richardson, while bad contracts were still productive players. Hedo Turkoglu? His pre-game ritual is to eat a slice of pizza. Guess what, he's 33 years old and after nearly 1000 games, it shows.

It's not only good if you think Brook Lopez was going to be a superstar. Give me Brook Lopez on a max contract and Marshon Brooks while getting rid of Hedo over Aron Afflalo, Moe Harkless, and keeping Hedo.

It's not Brook. It's Brook AND Hump. And for Hump to be included, he'd have wanted 3/4 years, not 2 years. It was happening at the time. It's basically commiting to a team of Brook/Hump/Brooks, no rebuild, and no high lottery pick because Brooks Brothers would have made them too good to be bottom 2/3 in the league.

It's terrible. It's 100% more talent, and 100% a worse way to try to rebuild.

[wang4three]

People are ****ing idiots. It wasn't Arron Afflalo and 2nd round picks. It was three first rounders (and there's no guarantee that Philly or Denver won't be first round exits that make those picks between 15-20 or so). Two second rounders, you might find a decent role player in there but those are pretty useless.

But they got one of the better shooters in the game two play the two guard, a good young prospect in Harkless who could be a steal, depth at the forward positions and a very young seven-footer. I like the deal for Orlando, they didn't acquire a terrible contract like Brook Lopez on a max deal, and they got multiple pieces to build around. They also got a shit ton of cap space to potentially make a move in FA.

I'm sure top players are lining up around the block to go play with Aron Afflalo and Moe Harkless and whatever guys they get with those late first round or second round picks.

[wang4three]

It's not Brook. It's Brook AND Hump. And for Hump to be included, he'd have wanted 3/4 years, not 2 years. It was happening at the time. It's basically commiting to a team of Brook/Hump/Brooks, no rebuild, and no high lottery pick because Brooks Brothers would have made them too good to be bottom 2/3 in the league.

It's terrible. It's 100% more talent, and 100% a worse way to try to rebuild.

And yet, after trading away Kidd and Vince, that's exactly who we've rebuilt around and within 3 years have become an ECF Force. Orlando is lucky to be a playoff team by 2017. They don't even have an assets to pull of a Deron-type trade now--unless they want to give up their OWN top 5 pick next year.

It's pathetic.

[DStebb716]

I'm sure top players are lining up around the block to go play with Aron Afflalo and Moe Harkless and whatever guys they get with those late first round or second round picks.

I'm not saying Kobe, LeBron or Chris Paul are headed there, but they could round out their roster with some high level guys. Or they can suck for a few years and get some elite young guys. They're in a better position now than they would be with Lopez. Does Lopez make them more of a contender than these guys? No. Either way they're at best a seven seed who gets bounced in the first round. Lopez isn't a max player.

[All Net]

Think about the fact Philly wanted to trade Iguodala, and not only got value, they got a better player. Sixer fans must still be giddy.

It's very rare for that to happen nevermind getting a player who is the 2nd best center in basketball.

[wang4three]

I'm not saying Kobe, LeBron or Chris Paul are headed there, but they could round out their roster with some high level guys. Or they can suck for a few years and get some elite young guys. They're in a better position now than they would be with Lopez. Does Lopez make them more of a contender than these guys? No. Either way they're at best a seven seed who gets bounced in the first round. Lopez isn't a max player.

Wait, what? You're being negligent and somewhat dismissive. So you acknowledge that the NBA elite won't go there. Ok. So we're excluding the three you mentioned, Wade, Rose, Dwight, Durant, Melo, Deron, Dirk, and Duncan.

Then what "high level" guys are you talking about? Are we talking about Blake Griffin, Kevin Love, Russell Westbrook, Rondo LaMarcus Aldridge, type players? Al Jefferson, Rudy Gay?

Let's forget that most of these guys are already on longterm contracts, but most likely none of these guys--just like Brook--will make you a contending team.

So who exactly are you talking about? If anything, their future is filled with uncertainty and doubt.

[Droid101]

Aaron Afflalo plus two second round picks for Dwight Howard would be the worst trade of all time.

The actual trade was not.

[Sarcastic]

If you are the Magic and your goal is to stink, then why not take the Brook, Hump, + picks deal at the trade deadline last year, and then let Brook and Hump walk?

[Optimus Prime]

They would of got more cap space if they took the Houston deal who were giving them 12 Milllion worth of cap space

For trading a top 2-3 player it was pretty bad for the magic.

Nobody knows what the Houston deal was if there even was a real deal. It was all rumors and speculation ... Broussard SOURCES type of stuff.

The deal they settled for does seem pretty bad though. There has to be other things that the public wasn't aware of for them to make this deal. That or this new Magic GM is more incompetent than Otis Smith ever was.

:kobe:

[Optimus Prime]

Nets fans still super mad. Get over it. The Nets deal was bad especially for what the Magic are trying to accomplish. Why would they clog up their cap with two average (at best) players just to stay mediocre when they could go all in on being awful and try to rebuild that way?

Fact: Nets offer was bad.

:kobe:

[Droid101]

If you are the Magic and your goal is to stink, then why not take the Brook, Hump, + picks deal at the trade deadline last year, and then let Brook and Hump walk?
Because Dwight signed to stay the rest of the season.

But other than that, y'know, you're on to something!

[bagelred]

Nets fans still super mad. Get over it. The Nets deal was bad especially for what the Magic are trying to accomplish. Why would they clog up their cap with two average (at best) players just to stay mediocre when they could go all in on being awful and try to rebuild that way?

Fact: Nets offer was bad.

:kobe:

That Kobe signature is not working. Lose that.

[niko]

And yet, after trading away Kidd and Vince, that's exactly who we've rebuilt around and within 3 years have become an ECF Force. Orlando is lucky to be a playoff team by 2017. They don't even have an assets to pull of a Deron-type trade now--unless they want to give up their OWN top 5 pick next year.

It's pathetic.

They're going to suck. Which might allow them to get the #1 pick. The Net deal even took that possibility away.

The Net deal was a better trade in terms of talent. It was a better trade if you wanted to be better today. It was an awful trade if you wanted to try to tear down and build up a contender. They need to be awful and have flexibility. The Net trade made them average with no flexibility.

Lopez & Hump as complimentary pieces are great, as a core of a team, they are awful.

[R.I.P.]

Would you rather have Bynum with a worst case scenario that his knees go Brandon Roy or Arron Afflalo? The new CBA market for players like OJ Mayo and all these short term deals shows that Afflalo at 8.0/year is clearly overpaid. For that kind of money you

[BoutPractice]

And then the Magic get Shabazz Muhammad and Andrew Wiggins or whoever's worthy of a top 5 pick the next two years and suddenly this trade doesn't look so bad in retrospect.
It really all depends on how well the Magic draft in the future.

[Optimus Prime]

That Kobe signature is not working. Lose that.

You're probably right but do you have anything else to contribute other than disliking my Kobe face sig?

:kobe:

(Sorry just had to)

[wang4three]

They're going to suck. Which might allow them to get the #1 pick. The Net deal even took that possibility away.

The Net deal was a better trade in terms of talent. It was a better trade if you wanted to be better today. It was an awful trade if you wanted to try to tear down and build up a contender. They need to be awful and have flexibility. The Net trade made them average with no flexibility.

Lopez & Hump as complimentary pieces are great, as a core of a team, they are awful.

Wait, what? You said Kris and Brook make them average, but then again they're awful? What are you talking about?

The Nets deal was better in terms of talent, future prospects, and having something to build around. They were going to be bad either way. The only thing you've done is make your team go from a 20 win team to a 10 win team.. same amount of ping pong balls, but different outlooks from the outside and outside of getting Shabazz or Noel (which they had a shot at getting with Brook, Brooks, and Hump), nothing looks good.

I mean come on, At least you can have some semblance of a future with Brook, Brooks, and Hump. At least maybe a guy of James Harden's age and talent (or Stephen Curry, Monta Ellis, Josh Smith) can say "I can go to that team and try to be the man" and get you into the playoffs within two years. You think they're going to go to a team to play with Afflalo and Moe Harkless?

But now? What are you rebuilding with? You've fortuned off one of the leagues most coveted assets, kept your biggest liabilities, and received trivial/inconsequential assets in return.

Their only hope is if it's 2004 again and they get another Dwight Howard talent.

[wang4three]

Nets fans still super mad. Get over it. The Nets deal was bad especially for what the Magic are trying to accomplish. Why would they clog up their cap with two average (at best) players just to stay mediocre when they could go all in on being awful and try to rebuild that way?

Fact: Nets offer was bad.

:kobe:

Never said it wasn't bad, it was just much better than the crap they took. I've repeatedly said throughout the entire ordeal that the Rockets offer was by far the best. I found it hilarious that people think that the Nets offer is terrible when they took an even worse deal that basically gave Dwight away for nothing. Whatever cap they were afforded is clearly negated by the fact that no one wants to go play for them.

[General]

Just because the Knicks were stupid enough to gut their whole team for Melo doesn't mean everyone else will line up to do the same thing. Cavs and Rockets probably weren't offering what the media said they were.

[Optimus Prime]

Never said it wasn't bad, it was just much better than the crap they took. I've repeatedly said throughout the entire ordeal that the Rockets offer was by far the best. I found it hilarious that people think that the Nets offer is terrible when they took an even worse deal that basically gave Dwight away for nothing. Whatever cap they were afforded is clearly negated by the fact that no one wants to go play for them.

You're not getting it's because you are clouded by anger. The Nets deal was awful because the Magic didn't want to end up being a mediocre team stuck fighting for the 8 seed with a bunch of average players clogging up their cap. They wanted to tear it all down suck really bad and hope to strike gold in the draft. The Nets offer was like the opposite of what the Magics plan is.

Stop with all the trash that nobody will play for Orlando now. Players still went there after Shaq left for nothing. Beautiful weather. Low taxes. Fantastic new arena. Some players only want to get paid. Etc ...

[gasolina]

I think people agree that the Nets proposal at the trade deadline trumps the Magic trade now. The recent one with extended Hump and Lopez, not so much. Depends on what Orlando is planning to do.

Am I the only one getting the feeling that even if they have all these capspace, they'll do a 2010 Nets and sign the Petros, the Outlaws, the Farmars, and Morrows? Does anyone know who the Magic could snatch in the next three years with that capspace? Someone relatively young, who could team up with whoever they draft next year?

[kaiteng]

Vince Carter trade to NJ
This.

It is basically Vince for a sack of potatoes.

[Sarcastic]

Because Dwight signed to stay the rest of the season.

But other than that, y'know, you're on to something!

He only agreed to stay with them because they begged him.

[wang4three]

You're not getting it's because you are clouded by anger. The Nets deal was awful because the Magic didn't want to end up being a mediocre team stuck fighting for the 8 seed with a bunch of average players clogging up their cap. They wanted to tear it all down suck really bad and hope to strike gold in the draft. The Nets offer was like the opposite of what the Magics plan is.

Clouded by anger? How are you in any position to judge my emotional state? At what point did we fight for 8th seed when Brook and Hump were our best players? Have you not remembered our 17 win season with Brook and Devin Harris being our best players?

They're going to suck REGARDLESS. It's just a matter of how much they are going to suck. There's a MUCH different outlook to a team that's 20 wins with real young talent and a team that's 10 wins with no real young talent.



Stop with all the trash that nobody will play for Orlando now. Players still went there after Shaq left for nothing. Beautiful weather. Low taxes. Fantastic new arena. Some players only want to get paid. Etc ...

After Shaq left, where was Orlando exactly? At best they were getting bounced out of the first round year after year as a low seed. Wait, isn't that just the outcome you predicted for the Nets trade?

Even if they were to suck, the only time they returned to contender status is when they got lucky in the draft and got Dwight. That outcome is still achievable if they had Brook, Brooks, and Humphries. It's a quicker fix too cause if you add a guy of Dwight's talent to those set of guys, instant 4-5 seed.

I find it laughable that you argue "some people just want to get paid" as players to rebuild around. That's great, rebuild around mercenaries. That's a good reason to clear cap space.

[boozehound]

Vince Carter trade to NJ
this was worse. at least they get 3 first rounders, even if they arent lotto picks.

[niko]

Wait, what? You said Kris and Brook make them average, but then again they're awful? What are you talking about?

The Nets deal was better in terms of talent, future prospects, and having something to build around. They were going to be bad either way. The only thing you've done is make your team go from a 20 win team to a 10 win team.. same amount of ping pong balls, but different outlooks from the outside and outside of getting Shabazz or Noel (which they had a shot at getting with Brook, Brooks, and Hump), nothing looks good.

I mean come on, At least you can have some semblance of a future with Brook, Brooks, and Hump. At least maybe a guy of James Harden's age and talent (or Stephen Curry, Monta Ellis, Josh Smith) can say "I can go to that team and try to be the man" and get you into the playoffs within two years. You think they're going to go to a team to play with Afflalo and Moe Harkless?

But now? What are you rebuilding with? You've fortuned off one of the leagues most coveted assets, kept your biggest liabilities, and received trivial/inconsequential assets in return.

Their only hope is if it's 2004 again and they get another Dwight Howard talent.

Kris and Brook are not bad players. (Lopez is a pretty good player, and id take Hump on the Knicks any day). But they are not players you build around. You wanted the Magic to get those two players, become a 30 win team with not cap flexibility? Exactly what purpose does that serve?

They have a $17M trade exception, probably will have a top 5 pick for a year or two, and cap space. . You hope to hit a home run and then have someone want to play with that player.

The Nets deal did not give the Magic a chance to rebuild. That is the point. Not to go from Good to average and stay there. It's to go from good to bad so you can go back to good.

It's better than the 3 ex nets and no possibillity of improvement.

[kobron23]

just another case of the lakers cheating again just like when they got pau. must be nice

[bagelred]

You're probably right but do you have anything else to contribute other than disliking my Kobe face sig?

:kobe:

(Sorry just had to)

:kobe:

[wang4three]

Kris and Brook are not bad players. (Lopez is a pretty good player, and id take Hump on the Knicks any day). But they are not players you build around. You wanted the Magic to get those two players, become a 30 win team with not cap flexibility? Exactly what purpose does that serve?

They have a $17M trade exception, probably will have a top 5 pick for a year or two, and cap space. . You hope to hit a home run and then have someone want to play with that player.

The Nets deal did not give the Magic a chance to rebuild. That is the point. Not to go from Good to average and stay there. It's to go from good to bad so you can go back to good.

It's better than the 3 ex nets and no possibillity of improvement.

I completely 100% disagree with everything you said. They have a great chance to rebuild. They will be a 20 win team, good enough to put them in a running of a top 5 pick. In one year, Humphries' contract is a 12 million expirer. You don't think a team like Golden State, Milwaukee, Atlanta would not want to part with Curry, Monta, Jennings, or Josh Smith? Each of those teams are middle of the pack no where so it'd be a great chance for them to rebuild and clear contract space. Now you're looking to rebuild with Brook Lopez, Curry/Monta/Jennings/Josh Smith, Marshon Brooks + a top 5 pick. Not to mention you got rid of one of the biggest waste of spaces in the league in Hedo.

Tell me how is that a WORSE rebuilding position than around a 17 million trade exception, Aron Afflalo, Hedo, and a top 5 pick?

[ILLsmak]

wow this is a terrible thread. I kept reading it and expecting it to get better.

WHICH DEAL WAS WORSE? It happened. It was a bad deal. It was dumb.

The Magic's only possible desire would be to **** with the top tier teams by making the Lakers godmode and giving Philly a tough inside guy to go against Miami.

-Smak

[Lamar Odumbb]

I think the Lakers Miami trade in 2004 was the worst in recent years because Lakers traded away 3 time champ and 3 time Finals MVP Shaq who was the closest thing to a guaranteed title to whomever he wen to for lazy Lamar Odom, 2nd year Caron Butler, and old man Brian Grant

As good as Dwight is, he has never won a title, MVP, or dominated like a Duncan, Shaq, or Lebron.

[R.I.P.]

And then the Magic get Shabazz Muhammad and Andrew Wiggins or whoever's worthy of a top 5 pick the next two years and suddenly this trade doesn't look so bad in retrospect.
It really all depends on how well the Magic draft in the future.

Because drafting is such an exact science. Everybody points to the recent poster child Thunder, but the only reason they are a serious title contender now, is that Portland took Oden. If the Blazers took Durant the Thunder are a 45-50 win team losing in the 1st and 2nd round every year, despite having great follow-up drafts with Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka.

[niko]

I completely 100% disagree with everything you said. They have a great chance to rebuild. They will be a 20 win team, good enough to put them in a running of a top 5 pick. In one year, Humphries' contract is a 12 million expirer. You don't think a team like Golden State, Milwaukee, Atlanta would not want to part with Curry, Monta, Jennings, or Josh Smith? Each of those teams are middle of the pack no where so it'd be a great chance for them to rebuild and clear contract space. Now you're looking to rebuild with Brook Lopez, Curry/Monta/Jennings/Josh Smith, Marshon Brooks + a top 5 pick. Not to mention you got rid of one of the biggest waste of spaces in the league in Hedo.

Tell me how is that a WORSE rebuilding position than around a 17 million trade exception, Aron Afflalo, Hedo, and a top 5 pick?

And Moe Harkless and Three other picks. And they can do the same thing you suggested, trade the $17M exception (which is more valuable than a player like Humphries because it's free, no salary is taken on by the acquiring team - combine that with a pick and you can do a lot). You took the Nets deal, and followed it out to a good conclusion. You can take this deal, and follow it out too. The difference is, if Lopez's foot snaps (which may happen - big men and stress fractures in the NBA don't have a good history together) the Magic rebuild is done.

Again, the Nets deal is only better if you want Lopez to be an important member of your team. I'm a Knick fan, we do cap clogging contracts better than anyone. If you are good, it's ok. If you are building, it's terrible.

[longtime lurker]

The Magic definitely took it up the A with that trade. What's baffling is that it seems they had no interest in Andrew Bynum. I think the Houston trade gets ridiculously overrated. Know one knows what Houston was giving up in that trade package

[wang4three]

And Moe Harkless and Three other picks. And they can do the same thing you suggested, trade the $17M exception (which is more valuable than a player like Humphries because it's free, no salary is taken on by the acquiring team - combine that with a pick and you can do a lot). You took the Nets deal, and followed it out to a good conclusion. You can take this deal, and follow it out too. The difference is, if Lopez's foot snaps (which may happen - big men and stress fractures in the NBA don't have a good history together) the Magic rebuild is done.

Again, the Nets deal is only better if you want Lopez to be an important member of your team. I'm a Knick fan, we do cap clogging contracts better than anyone. If you are good, it's ok. If you are building, it's terrible.

Is Moe Harkless any better than Marshon Brooks? They're both going to be scoring wings in the future. You can argue over some semantics, but the reality is they're just going to score in their future. Marshon has proved to do it at the pro level and may be more gifted skill wise. You can follow to the same conclusion except when you consider Aron Afflalo is way worse than Brook Lopez, whether you think Brook is worth his max contract or is the player that he is. Or if you consider the fact that very large trade exceptions seem to be harder to deal than expiring contracts. When has trade exceptions that large played out for a team? Do teams just suddenly trade out 10+ million dollar a year productive players? The best they could probably get is guys like Carlos Boozer who are not worth that much money. You're not getting a productive player worth the money with a 17 million dollar trade exception.

I don't see how being Knick fan has anything to do with it. What if I were a Toronto fan that traded their superstar away and haven't rebounded since? They had an exception too right? What did they get out of it? Nothing And they have not even sniffed playoffs since Bosh left. Did Cleveland get anything out of their LeBron trade exception?

Your personal experience has nothing to do with the reality that they took a deal while turning down deals that now look like diamonds.

[Whoah10115]

Yup. There's really no defending this trade. I understand Magic didn't want expensive "talent" back, but they didn't even get good draft picks or any cap space. Honestly, this is the most baffling trade. I'm surprised the media isn't going off on Orlando even more, but they are entranced with Howard to Lakers...so........




Imagine the Knicks did this? Hahaha.




I have to disagree with kblaze...this is about the worst trade I've ever heard. They didn't get Bynum, involved Philly, didn't get Iguodala.



Why did they bring in Harrington? They got rid of Richardson and Duhon...OK, if you get rid of those two guys and keep Turk, I can understand. But to get rid of only those two guys, when you don't get back anything that's top tier...other than Afflalo's defense, lol. It's just dumb.


Shit.

[josh99]

I seriously can't remember any trade worse than D12 for Arron Afflalo and late round draft picks.

Pau for Kwame wasnt that bad, as Marc Gasol (whom many call a better player than Pau) +$10million in expiring cap space for a PF who has never won a single playoff game does not seem like a ripoff.

But D12 the best center in the league for a roleplayer shooting guard, I dont think a trade has ever been that bad.

Maybe Rashard Lewis for Gilbert Arenas, simply because both teams lost badly in that one.

The Magic are a poorly run organization.
Yea a pretty bad trade but better than letting him walk in FA.

[bagelred]

Yea a pretty bad trade but better than letting him walk in FA.

Not really. This trade is so bad, I'd rather keep Howard for one more year in his prime....milk as much money as I could. Then next summer, I'll probably STILL be able to do a sign and trade with the Nets or Lakers for talent. If he leaves outright, who cares? Is it really much of a difference?

This trade is awful....I understand Magic want to be awful on purpose now, but this trade is beyond pathetic. The Magic got ZERO lottery picks. ZERO. :hammerhead: For a Top 3 player in his prime.

[Rubio2Gasol]

They got a 18 million dollar TPE.

If they are smart enough to use it is a different matter.

[ihatetimthomas]

Not really. This trade is so bad, I'd rather keep Howard for one more year in his prime....milk as much money as I could. Then next summer, I'll probably STILL be able to do a sign and trade with the Nets or Lakers for talent. If he leaves outright, who cares? Is it really much of a difference?

This trade is awful....I understand Magic want to be awful on purpose now, but this trade is beyond pathetic. The Magic got ZERO lottery picks. ZERO. :hammerhead: For a Top 3 player in his prime.

If this situation didnt get so bad in the media, then I think they would have held onto him. But they let it get to the point where he likely wouldnt even show up for camp. Thats how strained the relationship had become. It was a hasty decision but it was necessary to move him. In any other situation where it wasnt so overblown in media, I would have held onto him. I just think it was far too gone to have him start the season with them.

[Optimus Prime]

Clouded by anger? How are you in any position to judge my emotional state? At what point did we fight for 8th seed when Brook and Hump were our best players? Have you not remembered our 17 win season with Brook and Devin Harris being our best players?

They're going to suck REGARDLESS. It's just a matter of how much they are going to suck. There's a MUCH different outlook to a team that's 20 wins with real young talent and a team that's 10 wins with no real young talent.



After Shaq left, where was Orlando exactly? At best they were getting bounced out of the first round year after year as a low seed. Wait, isn't that just the outcome you predicted for the Nets trade?

Even if they were to suck, the only time they returned to contender status is when they got lucky in the draft and got Dwight. That outcome is still achievable if they had Brook, Brooks, and Humphries. It's a quicker fix too cause if you add a guy of Dwight's talent to those set of guys, instant 4-5 seed.

I find it laughable that you argue "some people just want to get paid" as players to rebuild around. That's great, rebuild around mercenaries. That's a good reason to clear cap space.

The words you choose to use and the incessant whining from Nets fans conveys how mad you all are because you just assumed Dwight was going to the Nets. You are more reasonable than most though I will give you that.

The supposed Houston deal was nothing more than rumors and MULTIPLE SOURCES. The Nets deal was worse than what they got in every way considering what the new Magic GM wants to accomplish. They want to be BAD and they will be.

Tmac and Grant Hill were in Orlando post Shaq ... are they just a bunch of greedy mercenaries? That team could have been pretty good too if Hill wasn't decimated by injuries. So don't act like Orlando was some sort of toxic wasteland after Shaq left. Beautiful weather, a nice city, low taxes, a fat paycheck and a chance to be "The Man" are enough for some players.

[bagelred]

The words you choose to use and the incessant whining from Nets fans conveys how mad you all are because you just assumed Dwight was going to the Nets. You are more reasonable than most though I will give you that.

The supposed Houston deal was nothing more than rumors and MULTIPLE SOURCES. The Nets deal was worse than what they got in every way considering what the new Magic GM wants to accomplish. They want to be BAD and they will be.

Tmac and Grant Hill were in Orlando post Shaq ... are they just a bunch of greedy mercenaries? That team could have been pretty good too if Hill wasn't decimated by injuries. So don't act like Orlando was some sort of toxic wasteland after Shaq left. Beautiful weather, a nice city, low taxes, a fat paycheck and a chance to be "The Man" are enough for some players.

Your posts aren't the same without your Kobe signature. Add that.

[niko]

I think people are taking the good net deal (the initial one) and comparing it to the current deal. The first Net deal was the best. HOWEVER, Howard opted in and everyone was all smiles and giggles so they kept him. Saying they should have traded him then is completely 20/20 hindsight. (And note: Orlando had either a Houston or an LA deal at that point they liked better, that's where Howard was going and that's where he opted in.)

The Net deal this year required Lopez and Humphries on long term deals (the 2 yr deal is for the Nets and after the Net deal was no longer able to be done, the Magic would have needed to give him more years). The current Net deal had the same crappy picks (almost literally the same, arguably worse as the Nets would probably be better than Denver or Philly) and gave the Magic more long term salary. It would have been 4 years of Brook, and 3 years of Hump which would have give the Magic even less cap room that what they got. And Harkless vs. Brooks is a push, you can argue it isn't but that's just speculation.

Like i said, to me the problem i have is that the Magic were prepared to wait endlesly, but they proceded like they had a gun to their head to get everything done all of a sudden. As far as deals go, i think the thought the current Nets deal was vastly better is ridiculous, Brook Lopez at max dollars is a ridiculous thing to build around.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Just putting this out there.

The Magic now have 22 Million in TPE + Cap.

The Cavs not too long ago turned Cap into Kyrie Irving in return for absorbing Baron Davis' contract.

If they swing this properly they can get great picks in return for absorbing shitty contracts, + they can suck and get great picks anyway.There's a way to work this trade but I'm not sure Magic FO can do it.

[Optimus Prime]

Your posts aren't the same without your Kobe signature. Add that.

I don't know the Kobe smiley is the best but it loses it's novelty if I use it all the time.

:kobe:

[niko]

I don't know the Kobe smiley is the best but it loses it's novelty if I use it all the time.

:kobe:
Use a different smily depending on the tone of you post. SOmetimes Kobe, sometimes Durant, etc.

[Optimus Prime]

Use a different smily depending on the tone of you post. SOmetimes Kobe, sometimes Durant, etc.

Why would I use a smiley of a player I hate or don't really care for? Kobe is my boy.

:kobe:

[wang4three]

I think people are taking the good net deal (the initial one) and comparing it to the current deal. The first Net deal was the best. HOWEVER, Howard opted in and everyone was all smiles and giggles so they kept him. Saying they should have traded him then is completely 20/20 hindsight. (And note: Orlando had either a Houston or an LA deal at that point they liked better, that's where Howard was going and that's where he opted in.)

The Net deal this year required Lopez and Humphries on long term deals (the 2 yr deal is for the Nets and after the Net deal was no longer able to be done, the Magic would have needed to give him more years). The current Net deal had the same crappy picks (almost literally the same, arguably worse as the Nets would probably be better than Denver or Philly) and gave the Magic more long term salary. It would have been 4 years of Brook, and 3 years of Hump which would have give the Magic even less cap room that what they got. And Harkless vs. Brooks is a push, you can argue it isn't but that's just speculation.

Like i said, to me the problem i have is that the Magic were prepared to wait endlesly, but they proceded like they had a gun to their head to get everything done all of a sudden. As far as deals go, i think the thought the current Nets deal was vastly better is ridiculous, Brook Lopez at max dollars is a ridiculous thing to build around.


You seem to be resigned to an opinion that's illogical, irrational, and even factually incorrect. But I've made my point and if you want to continue to think that somehow the Magic took a better deal, then I guess that's on you. Some people just like to believe what they want to believe.

If you believe Brook Lopez not worth 14 million/year for the next four years but rather have Aron Afflalo until he's 30 and Al Harrington til he's 35 for $15/year for the next 3 years, then I guess that's on you.

[niko]

You seem to be resigned to an opinion that's illogical, irrational, and even factually incorrect. But I've made my point and if you want to continue to think that somehow the Magic took a better deal, then I guess that's on you. Some people just like to believe what they want to believe.
They didn't want to take on the contracts of Humphries and Lopez, because it made them too good (not top 5 pick worthy) and it restricted their ability to acquire players (despite you listing Orlando as this place no one wants to go which i disgree with. It's certainly not A list location but it's not Cleveland). You want to ignore what Orlando wanted to accomplish in looking at the deals. How does that work?

I don't think this was a good deal, but neither was the Nets deal.

[wang4three]

They didn't want to take on the contracts of Humphries and Lopez, because it made them too good (not top 5 pick worthy) and it restricted their ability to acquire players (despite you listing Orlando as this place no one wants to go which i disgree with. It's certainly not A list location but it's not Cleveland). You want to ignore what Orlando wanted to accomplish in looking at the deals. How does that work?

I don't think this was a good deal, but neither was the Nets deal.


I don't know if you just dismiss or disregard what I say because you're resigned to an false opinion, or you're just not reading at all. With Brook, Brooks, and Humphries, they will be top 5 pick bound.

What in history, led you to think otherwise? They still wouldn't have a bench. They still have a rookie, unproven coach in Jacque Vaughn..who just not too long ago was a player. And they still have no leader. They'd be one of the youngest and most inexperience teams in the league...

Really, what are you thinking when you say they will be "too good to be a top 5?" I really hope you read this and understand the what you're saying. We needed Deron Williams to score 57 points to beat the Bobcats by 3 points! Humps played 40 minutes in that game. Brooks played nearly 30 minutes. Say Brook Lopez takes 20 of Deron's 57 points, and we still would've needed AT LEAST a 35 point effort from Deron to beat the Bobcats.... and yet you think with these guys, they'd be "too good" to be a top 5 team.

I am not ignoring anything the Magic want to accomplish. Want to be bad? They got it, they'd be bad. Want to have young talent? They got that too. Want to get rid of Hedo? Done. Want some meaningless low level draft picks? We have that too.

Both deals are not worth the value of Dwight Howard, but we offered them a way sweeter deal.

[niko]

I don't know if you just dismiss or disregard what I say because you're resigned to an false opinion, or you're just not reading at all. With Brook, Brooks, and Humphries, they will be top 5 pick bound.

What in history, led you to think otherwise? They still wouldn't have a bench. They still have a rookie, unproven coach in Jacque Vaughn..who just not too long ago was a player. And they still have no leader. They'd be one of the youngest and most inexperience teams in the league...

Really, what are you thinking when you say they will be "too good to be a top 5?" I really hope you read this and understand the what you're saying. We needed Deron Williams to score 57 points to beat the Bobcats by 3 points! Humps played 40 minutes in that game. Brooks played nearly 30 minutes. Say Brook Lopez takes 20 of Deron's 57 points, and we still would've needed AT LEAST a 35 point effort from Deron to beat the Bobcats.... and yet you think with these guys, they'd be "too good" to be a top 5 team.

I am not ignoring anything the Magic want to accomplish. Want to be bad? They got it, they'd be bad. Want to have young talent? They got that too. Want to get rid of Hedo? Done. Want some meaningless low level draft picks? We have that too.

Both deals are not worth the value of Dwight Howard, but we offered them a way sweeter deal.

But they do not want Brook Lopez. To me this means they see him as an injury risk. If you remember, the Nets/Magic were initially talking. Then Lopez got hurt. From that point, the nets were endlessly strung along.

They don't want Brook Lopez. He takes up the majority of the cap space in the deal (he makes the Nets deal take up more space. I am having trouble with saying "Well they should have taken him anyway". Maybe they see him as an injury risk?

I am having trouble with the thought of bashing Orlando because they didn't make the deal they didn't want. I'll bash them for not waiting on a better deal, but you want to bash them for not taking shitty deal A instead of shitty deal B. I can't do that.

[wang4three]

But they do not want Brook Lopez. To me this means they see him as an injury risk. If you remember, the Nets/Magic were initially talking. Then Lopez got hurt. From that point, the nets were endlessly strung along.

They don't want Brook Lopez. He takes up the majority of the cap space in the deal (he makes the Nets deal take up more space. I am having trouble with saying "Well they should have taken him anyway". Maybe they see him as an injury risk?

I am having trouble with the thought of bashing Orlando because they didn't make the deal they didn't want. I'll bash them for not waiting on a better deal, but you want to bash them for not taking shitty deal A instead of shitty deal B. I can't do that.

So you have a problem with a person taking 50 cents on the dollar if he wanted 10 cents on the dollar. Got it.

[niko]

So you have a problem with a person taking 50 cents on the dollar if he wanted 10 cents on the dollar. Got it.

The Nets were offering 15 cents, not 50. Hell, i'll give you 20 cents. BUT the 15/20 cents came with the caveat that in the future, the plan they had to get back to 100 cents had to be totally changed to a new plan they didn't like, instead of the plan they had starting with the 10 cents.

That's what happened. Nets offer was better, sure. But it didn't fit what they wanted to do.

[bdreason]

Pretty obvious these owners are doing side deals for cash/assets. Buss probably wired an extra 50 million to Devos's Swiss bank account to get the deal done.

[bagelred]

Why would I use a smiley of a player I hate or don't really care for? Kobe is my boy.

:kobe:

Nah, changed my mind again. Lose that.