Who Is Luckier Bill Russell or Kobe Bryant?

[Round Mound]

http://childrensministryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/microsoft-help5.jpg

Always With Plenty of Great Superstars and All Stars Around Them To Win

Who You Got For Luckier?

[KyrieTheFuture]

The guy with 6 more rings obviously....

[Rubio2Gasol]

Larry freaking Bird and Magic Freaking Johnson.

Hakeem with either of their teams : 10 championships

[tmacattack33]

Derek Fisher is even luckier.

[Jacks3]

Kobe easily. The luckiest star ever.

I'm loving it. :roll:

[Round Mound]

Bryant and his NEW TWIN TOWER SIYSTEM...How Luckier Can u Get? :eek:

1-THE BEST CENTER IN THE GAME (like the days when he had Shaq he actually had the Best Player in the Game)

2- A TOP 5 PF/CF

3- A TOP 5 PG

Why Just Doesnt the NBA Just Give 6 More Rings to Kobe so he Can "Surpass" MJ and his Fans? :rolleyes: :facepalm :confusedshrug: :coleman:

[LamarOdom]

Lol still mad Chuck is a career loser?

[Kblaze8855]

Bill Russell joined a college team that had never been to the NCAA tournament and won 55 games in a row and back to back titles....that college may have produced nobody since...if so it was like...Bill cartwright. College has not been to the final four since he left. couple nice runs in the 70s but nothing in the 35-40 years since.

He then went and led his team to a gold medal winning by a record point margin. At which time he joins a team with a coach who had 16 years of never winning and a group of players who had never been to the finals. They won it all. Then lost in 7 with him injured the next finals. Then won 8 in a row and 10 of 11.

He retired.

They missed the playoffs back to back using those high picks to draft back to back superstars to rebuild for the 70s.

Bill Russell wasnt getting lucky. He was making every team he played for great.

If any of the teams he won on proved themselves capable of winning before he got there or after he left...he was lucky to share time with them.

Everyone who played with Russell was lucky to play with him. Not the other way around.

[Rubio2Gasol]

I find it difficult to see Kobe as lucky.

His prime was wasted on Smush Parker and Kwame Brown.

It was his own fault tho, he was a little bitc.h

[Round Mound]

Larry freaking Bird and Magic Freaking Johnson.

Hakeem with either of their teams : 10 championships

That is Why PER always shows who the More Dominant and Efficient Player is

Hakeem and Barkley > Magic and Bird in Terms of Impact...but Ofcourse Idiots Will Always Say...WHO GOT MORE RINGS? Crap...:rolleyes: :facepalm

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

Lol still mad Chuck is a career loser?

Yet he's a better player than Kobe Bryant

[Round Mound]

Lol still mad Chuck is a career loser?

Atleast He When to the Finals on His Own with a Less Talented Team Compared to Other Teams in 93.

Kobe have any 44 and 24 rebound games in the play-offs? :confusedshrug:

Or a 56 Point Game in the Play-Offs Where he Goes 11-11 FGs/FGAs in the 1st Quarter? :confusedshrug:

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

Hakeem and Barkley > Magic and Bird in Terms of Impact...but Ofcourse Idiots Will Always Say...WHO GOT MORE RINGS? Crap...:rolleyes: :facepalm

:applause:

[kennethgriffin]

technically kobe won with a pretty average team in 09 and 10 compared to most all time

bynum was a scrub back then ( 8 and 6ppg? )
odom never was an allstar before


i think having allot of help in todays nba is the only way to beat a team like miami

so its not like its going against anything


just like the 80's celtics and 80's lakers both needing 3-4 hall of famers to compete with each other..




OP is just a jealous fat hater who fell in love with a lazy no defense playing doughnut eating underachiver... and hes taking it out on the fortunate

[riseagainst]

definitely kobe. Career 45% chucker should never win as the leading man. he was carried by GOAT/dominant centers. Kobe's barely a top 30 player all time and barely a top 10 SG all time.

[TheBigVeto]

http://childrensministryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/microsoft-help5.jpg

Always With Plenty of Great Superstars and All Stars Around Them To Win

Who You Got For Luckier?

Duh. Kobe of course.
David Stern wasn't in the league during Russell's time. He won fairly.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Don't care about PER, Saw a 22 year old Hakeem take down the GOAT team in history with virtually no help in 86, took out another GOAT team on the way.

Then I saw him embarrass a series of Hall of Fame centers on his way to a chip, again with virtually no help.

The man was a god.

Also, don't take shots at Kobe man, he put up 48/16/6 already , saw him embarrass my Kings and Christie like they were nothing...the dude was special.

[G-Funk]

They Mad!

[DonDadda59]

The Lakers have always done right by Kobe, that's one player in modern NBA history who has absolutely no right to complain about his front office.

[Da Hammer]

:roll: The tears of Kobe Haters are pretty delicious. MOAR tears!!! :roll:

[Round Mound]

Kobe has had the Best Passing Creating Big Man of Today and a Top 5 PF/CF for his Rings and The Best 6tman in the NBA in Odom to Win his Rings Against Lesser Competition.

Man if Guys Like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Robinson would have had the Teams Kobe Has Had They Would Have Atleast 2 or 3 Championships but Ofcourse Today`s NBA is Full Marketing and Wan`ts to Force the MJ vs kobe Debate for the Next Years...

Kobe Has One of the Lowest PERs I Wonder Why...

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

technically kobe won with a pretty average team in 09 and 10 compared to most all time

bynum was a scrub back then ( 8 and 6ppg? )
odom never was an allstar before


i think having allot of help in todays nba is the only way to beat a team like miami

so its not like its going against anything


just like the 80's celtics and 80's lakers both needing 3-4 hall of famers to compete with each other..




OP is just a jealous fat hater who fell in love with a lazy no defense playing doughnut eating underachiver

You have to compare teams to their peers and not to other eras. Odom and Gasol by themselves are a lot of help. Gasol was, in my opinion, at least as important as Kobe in the 09/10 run.

[Round Mound]

The Lakers have always done right by Kobe, that's one player in modern NBA history who has absolutely no right to complain about his front office.

:applause:

[Rubio2Gasol]

Kobe has had the Best Passing Creating Big Man of Today and a Top 5 PF/CF for his Rings and The Best 6tman in the NBA in Odom to Win his Rings Against Lesser Competition.

Man if Guys Like Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Robinson would have had the Teams Kobe Has Had They Would Have Atleast 2 or 3 Championships but Ofcourse Today`s NBA is Full Marketing and Wan`ts to Force the MJ vs kobe Debate for the Next Years...

Kobe Has One of the Lowest PERs I Wonder Why...

Stop with the PER foolishness man.....Malone and Stock had great teams, Ewing less so, Kobe ate Robinson in 01 soI have no sympathy.

Kobe is great you don't need to discredit what he did to get those guys their rightful credit.

[Rubio2Gasol]

You have to compare teams to their peers and not to other eras. Odom and Gasol by themselves are a lot of help. Gasol was, in my opinion, at least as important as Kobe in the 09/10 run.

Gasol is my favorite player in the game...but he wasn't.Gasol was inconsistent throughout than Run, got outplayed by Amare an awful lot...if we look at the run as a whole Kobe was much much better,

But Gasol got it done in game 7 like a boss :bowdown:

[hawke812]

definitely kobe. Career 45% chucker should never win as the leading man. he was carried by GOAT/dominant centers. Kobe's barely a top 30 player all time and barely a top 10 SG all time.

Bynum carried Kobe:roll: :roll: :roll:

Mad as hell brah:roll: :roll: :roll:

[jlauber]

Luck?

Well, Russell was esentially drafted by the Celtics (he was actually traded to them) to a Celtics team that had gone 39-33 the year before, AND, who ALSO drafted Tom Heinsohn in the same draft. Then, the very next season they would draft Sam Jones. A few years later, when Cousy was in the twilight of his career, they essentially replaced him with John Havlicek.

And as great as Russell was, going 10-0 in his game seven's, his teams won SEVEN of them by margins of four points, or less, including a couple of OT wins.

Of course, he also had Sam Jones hitting something like 25 game winners in the post-season (and eight in the Finals), and players like Havlicek making miraculous plays, or Nelson hitting miraculous shots to win game seven's.

BTW, Havlicek continued to play after Russell retired, ands within a couple of years, the Celts added Dave Cowens and then went 56-26, and an all-time best 68-14 in 72-73, and then won two titles in the next three seasons.


Kobe? How much luckier can it get when he goes to a loaded Laker team, and plays with a Shaq who was the best player in the game for some five straight seasons in the Kobe-era. A Shaq who put up the most dominant Finals in three straight years.

When Shaq left, the Lakers immediately plummetted to a 34-48 record. A couple of years later they stole Gasol, and the rest is history. Three straight Finals, and two more rings.

True, Kobe was instrumental in getting past the Spurs in the early 00's, and was their best player in those three straight Finals appearances at the end of the decade, but there was no question he was somewhat "lucky."

The fact was, there was TON of "luck" involved in BOTH players winning their rings. And, the game is a TEAM game, too. Neither win rings without a TON of support.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The player who won 5 rings with just 1 HOF/All Star teammate per title team obviously :roll:

[Round Mound]

[B]If PER is Crap then Why Is that the GOAT Is N

[Heavincent]

Kobe is a consensus top 10 player of all time. Pissing and moaning isn't gonna change that fact.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Luck?

Well, Russell was esentially drafted by the Celtics (he was actually traded to them) to a Celtics team that had gone 39-33 the year before, AND, who ALSO drafted Tom Heinsohn in the same draft. Then, the very next season they would draft Sam Jones. A few years later, when Cousy was in the twilight of his career, they essentially replaced him with John Havlicek.

And as great as Russell was, going 10-0 in his game seven's, his teams won SEVEN of them by margins of four points, or less, including a couple of OT wins.

Of course, he also had Sam Jones hitting something like 25 game winners in the post-season (and eight in the Finals), and players like Havlicek making miraculous plays, or Nelson hitting miraculous shots to win game seven's.

BTW, Havlicek continued to play after Russell retired, ands within a couple of years, the Celts added Dave Cowens and then went 56-26, and an all-time best 68-14 in 72-73, and then won two titles in the next three seasons.


Kobe? How much luckier can it get when he goes to a loaded Laker team, and plays with a Shaq who was the best player in the game for some five straight seasons in the Kobe-era. A Shaq who put up the most dominant Finals in three straight years.

When Shaq left, the Lakers immediately plummetted to a 34-48 record. A couple of years later they stole Gasol, and the rest is history. Three straight Finals, and two more rings.

True, Kobe was instrumental in getting past the Spurs in the early 00's, and was their best player in those three straight Finals appearances at the end of the decade, but there was no question he was somewhat "lucky."

The fact was, there was TON of "luck" involved in BOTH players winning their rings. And, the game is a TEAM game, too. Neither win rings without a TON of support.
Wilt 2 rings.....

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]If PER is Crap then Why Is that the GOAT Is N

[LongLiveTheKing]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]If PER is Crap then Why Is that the GOAT Is N

[Rubio2Gasol]

Luck?

Well, Russell was esentially drafted by the Celtics (he was actually traded to them) to a Celtics team that had gone 39-33 the year before, AND, who ALSO drafted Tom Heinsohn in the same draft. Then, the very next season they would draft Sam Jones. A few years later, when Cousy was in the twilight of his career, they essentially replaced him with John Havlicek.

And as great as Russell was, going 10-0 in his game seven's, his teams won SEVEN of them by margins of four points, or less, including a couple of OT wins.

Of course, he also had Sam Jones hitting something like 25 game winners in the post-season (and eight in the Finals), and players like Havlicek making miraculous plays, or Nelson hitting miraculous shots to win game seven's.

BTW, Havlicek continued to play after Russell retired, ands within a couple of years, the Celts added Dave Cowens and then went 56-26, and an all-time best 68-14 in 72-73, and then won two titles in the next three seasons.


Kobe? How much luckier can it get when he goes to a loaded Laker team, and plays with a Shaq who was the best player in the game for some five straight seasons in the Kobe-era. A Shaq who put up the most dominant Finals in three straight years.

When Shaq left, the Lakers immediately plummetted to a 34-48 record. A couple of years later they stole Gasol, and the rest is history. Three straight Finals, and two more rings.

True, Kobe was instrumental in getting past the Spurs in the early 00's, and was their best player in those three straight Finals appearances at the end of the decade, but there was no question he was somewhat "lucky."

The fact was, there was TON of "luck" involved in BOTH players winning their rings. And, the game is a TEAM game, too. Neither win rings without a TON of support.


Agree , except you could make the argument that Kobe was just as important to their cumulative success in 01 and 02.He influenced the Sacramento and San Antonio series more and in 02 he was considered the best perimiter player in the league.

BTW I think Kobe's teams in 09 and 10 were relatively weak,but that problem was assuaged by the relative weakness of the opposition bar the Celts.

[jlauber]

Wilt 2 rings.....

Had he had TEN seasons with MAGIC, like Kareem, and he surpasses Kareem.

[jlauber]

Agree , except you could make the argument that Kobe was just as important to their cumulative success in 01 and 02.He influenced the Sacramento and San Antonio series more and in 02 he was considered the best perimiter player in the league.

BTW I think Kobe's teams in 09 and 10 were relatively weak,but that problem was assuaged by the relative weakness of the opposition bar the Celts.

Agreed (and I already acknowledged that in my post.)

[Round Mound]

If the stats don't favor Kobe(which most don't) they don't count. That's how his stans view it.

:applause:

Indeed the REAL GOAT PLAYRES are NOT the ones with Rings Or More Rings but with Better Productions with Analysis Involed (BROKEN DOWN STATS) as It is showd in EFF, PER (per minute) and Plus/Minus. T

hose are The REAL GOAT PLAYERS who NEEDED RULE CHANGES or WHO RECIEVED MORE DOUBLE TEAMING..Who Made an IMPACT OFFENSIVFELY OR DEFENSIVELY etc

Hakeem and Barkley where much Better than Bryant...Yet THe Kiddos of Today Will Say Kobe is Better Cause He Won More Rings. Bull I Saw ALL OF THEM PLAY and Hakeem and Barkley where Better than Bryant.

[Hands of Iron]

Barkley > Magic and Bird in Terms of Impact...

:oldlol:

[Round Mound]

:oldlol:

Was Bird or Magic Doubled Team like Hakeem and Barkley? :no:

Did They Force Rule Changes Like Barkley Did? :no:

They Where Great but They Had the Teamates To Validate Their Greatness and Stats

Barkley and Hakeem where MORE IMPACFTUL PLAYERS than them despite being Less "Skilled" or "Nice To Watch" (like Kobe is).

I Am Just Saying Truths....(and Bird is my 2nd Favorite Player Ever)

[Kblaze8855]

Great players are at the top of any formula that is a combo of numbers we find positive with points taken for what we find negative. win shares per 48 give you pretty much the same players in a different order(same #1 though).

You could ask why MJ is #1 if its bad...and it could be asked why Yao is ahead of Moses Malone, Bill Russell, and Willis Reed if its good. And why Brad Miller is ahead of Mutombo, Dave cowens, and Nate thurmond. Or why Marbury is ahead of Isiah Thomas, scottie Pippen, Kidd, and Tiny Archibald.

I could get roughly as accurate results with a formula made in 3 minutes. Ive seen people here come up with much simpler ones that result in the same basic players at the top and the same idiotic conclusions popping up hundreds of times.

Its just some numbers a guy decided to assign a value to...because he felt like it.

It matters as much as that mans opinion does. To me...his opinion means nothing.

[Legends66NBA7]

Bill Russell joined a college team that had never been to the NCAA tournament and won 55 games in a row and back to back titles....that college may have produced nobody since...if so it was like...Bill cartwright. College has not been to the final four since he left. couple nice runs in the 70s but nothing in the 35-40 years since.

He then went and led his team to a gold medal winning by a record point margin. At which time he joins a team with a coach who had 16 years of never winning and a group of players who had never been to the finals. They won it all. Then lost in 7 with him injured the next finals. Then won 8 in a row and 10 of 11.

He retired.

They missed the playoffs back to back using those high picks to draft back to back superstars to rebuild for the 70s.

Bill Russell wasnt getting lucky. He was making every team he played for great.

If any of the teams he won on proved themselves capable of winning before he got there or after he left...he was lucky to share time with them.

Everyone who played with Russell was lucky to play with him. Not the other way around.

Nice to see this post got looked over.

I wonder why.

[Pushxx]

This thread is filled with more player bias than I've ever seen on ISH.

Daaaaaaamn.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Stop grouping Barkley with Hakeem lmao.

[Kblaze8855]

Barkley and Hakeem where MORE IMPACFTUL PLAYERS than them despite being Less "Skilled" or "Nice To Watch" (like Kobe is).

I Am Just Saying Truths....

And what exactly caused the Celtics to become a 60 win team in Birds rookie season up from 29 when they added nobody else of note and actually lost some talent?

His teammates of the future?

Jerry Sloan had him as the GOAT before he so much as played a finals game:

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8673/birdfe.jpg

But it was teammates and success that got him his status...

People couldnt see he was an all time elite player the moment they glanced at him. It took riiiiiiiiiiiiings and such....

[Hands of Iron]

Stop grouping Barkley with Hakeem lmao.

You see I removed Hakeem from his quote above, right? :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Had he had TEN seasons with MAGIC, like Kareem, and he surpasses Kareem.
The same Wilt that DID NOT WIN THE TITLE playing alongside the BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD in Jerry West and HOFer Elgin Baylor in 1969 and 1970?

Don't act like Wilt didn't play with anyone special

[RIP CITY]

Shaq: Penny/Kobe/Wade/LeBron/Nash/Amare. That's 3 of arguably the Top 5 wing/perimeter players of All-Time (Kobe/Wade/LeBron) one that had the talent to be one of the Top 10-15 perimeter players of All-Time (Penny), one of the most offensively gifted PF's of All-Time (Amare) and one of the Top 15 PG's of All-Time (Nash). Not to mention most of those rosters were stacked with All-Time great role players like (Horry, Fisher, Horace Grant (ORL/LAL) etc. etc.).

But the answer to this topic in regards to the names mentioned in the title, Russell by a landslide. Different era though, it was easier to stockpile Hall of Famers on one team, far less teams, different cap, not as money driven of a League, etc. Russell playing with Havlicek and Cousy would be like Kareem playing with Magic AND Bird in comparison since Havlicek and Cousy were both arguably the greatest players at their positions during that era (Cousy being the greatest PG of All-Time at the time).

[Hands of Iron]

Bird

[B]They Where Great but They Had the Teamates To Validate Their Greatness and Stats

Yeah, they sure did. :oldlol:

Boston Celtics Season-by-Season:
1978: 32-50
1979: 29-53
~ Bird joins Boston Celtics ~
1980: 61-21
1981: 62-20
1982: 63-19
1983: 56-26
1984: 62-20
1985: 63-19
1986: 67-15
1987: 59-23
1988: 57-25
1989: 42-40 (Bird misses 76 games)
1990: 52-30
1991: 56-26
1992: 51-31

[tpols]

Damn people are mad as fvck tonight:roll:

[jlauber]

The same Wilt that DID NOT WIN THE TITLE playing alongside the BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD in Jerry West and HOFer Elgin Baylor in 1969 and 1970?

The same Wilt who WON a title while West choked in '72. Or the same Wilt who won a dominating title in '67, and knocking off the greatest dynasty in NBA history in the process, and with no player remotely close to Magic on that roster.

Of course, Baylor was not worth a damn in the ONLY full season they played together. And West played ONE truly great series (while Wilt was shackled by an incompetent coach), and the in the rest of his four years with Wilt, he choked horribly in a game seven in '70, MISSED the ENTIRE playoffs in '71 (remember, too, that a ONE-LEGGED Chamberlain CAME BACK and PLAYED in '70), and was AWFUL in the '72 and '73 post-seasons.

Now, can you imagine Chamberlain getting 8+ years of a CLUTCH Magic Johnson? A player who completely redirected Kareem's fading career, and even AFTER Kareem continued to lead the Lakers to great seasons?

A PRIME Kareem in his ten seasons BEFORE MAGIC? Two Finals, and ONE ring (and arguably the easiest run to an NBA title in NBA history), with several gag jobs, and teams that consistently underachieved nearly every season that he played with them.

Give Chamberlain TEN seasons with Magic and he easily surpasses Kareem in rings.

[Round Mound]

Stop grouping Barkley with Hakeem lmao.

Barkley Before 1995-96 was in the Level of Hakeem. Injuries Where the Problem with Barkley. Infact Barkley from 87-90 was proably the 2nd best player in the game taking the Crappy Sixers in a Tougher Conference after MJ.

Ofcourse Magic was Great and Bird still a Top 10 Player but no way where they Better than Barkley, Hakeem or Jordan.

Hakeem was Better but its not like he was WAY BETTER.

Barkley and Avanced Stats is Top 10 All Time in Every Category.

PER? Barkley is Top 9 and 10 All Time
EFF? Barkley is Top 10 All Time
Plus/Minus? Barkley is Top 5 All Time
Shot Made/Missed Diferential? Barkley is Top 4 All Time
Win Shares Per 48 Minutes? Barkley is Top 8 All Time

Barkley before 1995 was in Another Level among Forwards.

[Hands of Iron]

Damn people are mad as fvck tonight:roll:

LMAO.

Yeah, it's ****in wild in here. :oldlol: :lol

[Hands of Iron]

WTF with this Barkley stuff. :roll:

[Rubio2Gasol]

In 80 they got Mchale AND Parish man.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The same Wilt who WON a title while West choked in '72. Or the same Wilt who won a dominating title in '67, and knocking off the greatest dynasty in NBA history in the process, and with no player remotely close to Magic on that roster.

Of course, Baylor was not worth a damn in the ONLY full season they played together. And West played ONE truly great series (while Wilt was shackled by an incompetent coach), and the in the rest of his four years with Wilt, he choked horribly in a game seven in '70, MISSED the ENTIRE playoffs in '71 (remember, too, that a ONE-LEGGED Chamberlain CAME BACK and PLAYED in '70), and was AWFUL in the '72 and '73 post-seasons.

Now, can you imagine Chamberlain getting 8+ years of a CLUTCH Magic Johnson? A player who completely redirected Kareem's fading career, and even AFTER Kareem continued to lead the Lakers to great seasons?

A PRIME Kareem in his ten seasons BEFORE MAGIC? Two Finals, and ONE ring (and arguably the easiest run to an NBA title in NBA history), with several gag jobs, and teams that consistently underachieved nearly every season that he played with them.

Give Chamberlain TEN seasons with Magic and he easily surpasses Kareem in rings.
It amazing how you say that Wilt never choked ever, yet blast his own teammate nicknamed Mr Clutch and say he choked in '70 and '72.
Say that Bird is the biggest choker alltime great ever
Say Kareem was a big choker

All you ever do is prop up Wilt and bring every other great down.

[jlauber]

The same Wilt that DID NOT WIN THE TITLE playing alongside the BEST PLAYER IN THE WORLD in Jerry West and HOFer Elgin Baylor in 1969 and 1970?

Don't act like Wilt didn't play with anyone special

BTW, West was NOT the BEST player in the world that '70 season. In fact, BEFORE Chamberlain shredded his knee in game nine, it was WILT who was leading the NBA in scoring, at 32.2 ppg (West was at 30.8 ppg, and Baylor at 19.9 ppg BTW), while shooting .579 from the floor, and averaging a league leading 20.2 rpg. Of course, what a difference a year makes. In '69, Chamberlain had a clown for a coach. In '70, he had a coach who had the common sense to ask the game's greatest offensive player to SHOOT. And even AFTER Wilt's leg injury, all he did in that Finals was put up a 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 FG% seven game series...and all on ONE LEG (with a "must win" game six of 45 points, 20-27 shooting, and 27 rebounds.)

[jlauber]

It amazing how you say that Wilt never choked ever, yet blast his own teammate nicknamed Mr Clutch and say he choked in '70 and '72.
Say that Bird is the biggest choker alltime great ever
Say Kareem was a big choker

All you ever do is prop up Wilt and bring every other great down.

FACTS are FACTS my friend.

[Round Mound]

Yeah, they sure did. :oldlol:

Boston Celtics Season-by-Season:
1978: 32-50
1979: 29-53
~ Bird joins Boston Celtics ~
1980: 61-21
1981: 62-20
1982: 63-19
1983: 56-26
1984: 62-20
1985: 63-19
1986: 67-15
1987: 59-23
1988: 57-25
1989: 42-40 (Bird misses 76 games)
1990: 52-30
1991: 56-26
1992: 51-31

Bird is My 2nd Favorite Player but You re Overrating Him a Bit. He Played with the 2nd Best Cast from 80-87 in the League after the Lakers and Pistons 88 on.

When Bird Arrived The Celtics Still had MAXWELL (who should be in the HOF) and COWENS and ARCHIBALD Playing Pretty Well along Maravich too. So it wasn`t that bad of a Team.

Then When They Won the Ring the Next Year They Did cause they Picked Up ROBERT PARISH in 1980-81 and that dude had a Higher PER tha Bird and Maxwell that Season. Then the Next Rings with McHALE, DJ, AINGE AND WALTON.

After Bird Retired the Celtics still made it to the Play-Offs. Same with Magic and his Lakers. They Still Made the Play-Offs in 92-93

While for Barkley he left the Sixers which he carried from 87-92 THEY DIDN` MAKE THE PLAY-OFFS

[Deuce Bigalow]

BTW, West was NOT the BEST player in the world that '70 season. In fact, BEFORE Chamberlain shredded his knee in game nine, it was WILT who was leading the NBA in scoring, at 32.2 ppg (West was at 30.8 ppg, and Baylor at 19.9 ppg BTW), while shooting .579 from the floor, and averaging a league leading 20.2 rpg. Of course, what a difference a year makes. In '69, Chamberlain had a clown for a coach. In '70, he had a coach who had the common sense to ask the game's greatest offensive player to SHOOT. And even AFTER Wilt's leg injury, all he did in that Finals was put up a 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 FG% seven game series...and all on ONE LEG (with a "must win" game six of 45 points, 20-27 shooting, and 27 rebounds.)
How can you say a guy choked, when in that same game Wilt shot 1-11 FT?

[Deuce Bigalow]

FACTS are FACTS my friend.
The Facts are that those "chokers' have many more Championships, higher HCA win%, higher Finals Win% than the guy who never choked Wilt.

[tpols]

Barkley Before 1995-96 was in the Level of Hakeem. Injuries Where the Problem with Barkley. Infact Barkley from 87-90 was proably the 2nd best player in the game taking the Crappy Sixers in a Tougher Conference after MJ.

Ofcourse Magic was Great and Bird still a Top 10 Player but no way where they Better than Barkley, Hakeem or Jordan.

Hakeem was Better but its not like he was WAY BETTER.

Barkley and Avanced Stats is Top 10 All Time in Every Category.

PER? Barkley is Top 9 and 10 All Time
EFF? Barkley is Top 10 All Time
Plus/Minus? Barkley is Top 5 All Time
Shot Made/Missed Diferential? Barkley is Top 4 All Time
Win Shares Per 48 Minutes? Barkley is Top 8 All Time

Barkley before 1995 was in Another Level among Forwards.
Barkley was a selfish jackass who never elevated his teammates games and would be known as the biggest career loser superstar of all time if Tmac wasnt born.

[TheBigVeto]

FACTS are FACTS my friend.

Yes, fact is Wilt is the biggest choker in the HOF.

[TheBigVeto]

Had he had TEN seasons with MAGIC, like Kareem, and he surpasses Kareem.

LOL.
Magic wouldn't even win a ring if Wilt was in place instead of Kareem.
Wilt be choking.

[jlauber]

Kareem? Where to begin. Let's start with what some here claim was his BEST post-season, in 76-77. Yes, he and his 53-29 Lakers dominated the 46-36 Warriors in a tough seven game series. BUT, in the WCF's, and aside from ONE game, in which he poured in 40 points against Walton, the rest of those three games (a 4-0 SWEEP by the 49-33 Blazers), Walton battled him to s statistical draw, and played better in the clutch and 4th periods. And that was Kareem's best post-season, and only covering 11 games.

How about the fact that Kareem played with Nixon, Hudson, Wilkes (who won a title earlier in his career with Barry and a bunch of no-names), and a Dantley who came to LA after averaging 26.5 ppg, ...for TWO seasons. With all of that talent, they were wiped out by 47-35 and 50-32 Sonics teams that had ONE borderline HOF player in two straight post-seasons.

Kareem had a fantastic playoff series against Reed in the '70 ECF's. HOWEVER, in the deciding game five (of a 4-1 series loss), Reed outscored Kareem, 32-27, and in a 132-96 win.

The very next season, 70-71, when Kareem not only won the MVP, he also deserved won the FMVP. STILL, he was battled to a statistical draw by a 34 year old Wilt, and only a year removed from major knee surgery, and won kept LA in those games, despite not having BOTH West and Baylor. Inthe deciding game win, Kareem was completely outplayed by Wilt (Chamberlain outscored him 23-20, and outshot him, 10-21 to 7-23.)

Then, in the 71-72 post-season, a Kareem who again won the MVP, and who led the NBA in scoring at 34.8 ppg and shot .577 in the process, was OUTSCORED and OUTSHOT by Nate Thurmond. In the deciding win, Thurmond outscored Kareem, 26-23. In the series, Kareem shot an unbelieveable .405!

Kareem then took his defending champion and 63-19 Bucks up against Wilt's 69-13 Lakers, and after a blowout win in game one, the Lakers then won four of the next five, including a 25 point wipeout in game five, and a come-from-behind win in Milwaukee in the clinching game six. Overall, Kareem shot .457, which was way below his .574 seasonal FG%. Not only that, but over the course of the last four games, Kareem could only shoot .414. And he was badly outplayed by Wilt in the series clincher.

In his 72-73 playoffs, Kareem took his 60-22 team down in flames against the 47-35 Warriors in the first round, and in a season in which he averaged 30.0 ppg on .554 shooting, all he could do was average 22.8 ppg on ,428 shooting against Thurmond. BTW, Wilt then crushed Thurmond in the very next round, en route to leading HIS 60-22 Lakers to a 4-1 romp over that Warrior team.

Kareem played well in the '74 Finals, no question. BUT, in the deciding seventh game, and on his HOME FLOOR, he was outscored, outshot, and outrebounded by the 6-9 Dave Cowens, in yet ANOTHER blow-out loss.

Kareem was traded to the Lakers after a disappointing 74-75 season in which he broke his hand and missed 16 games (remember the "choker" Wilt PLAYING with a BROKEN hand, and DOMINATING, in game five of the Finals?)

His 75-76 season is interesting. Remember, in his 71-72 season, Kareem played 44.2 mpg, and scored 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting, for a 63-19 Bucks team that had a +11.1 scoring differential. How come, in his 75-76 season, and with an average, at best, roster, he only played 41.2 mpg, and only scored 27.7 ppg on .529 shooting? BTW, Bob McAdoo averaged 31.1 ppg that season.

I covered the rest of the decade already. In any case, Kareem, playing with mostly STACKED rosters, and in perhaps the weakest decade for champions in NBA history (the '75 Warriors, with Barry and Wilkes and a bunch of no-names, going 48-34; the 49-33 Blazers; the 44-38 Bullets; and the 52-30 Sonics), went to TWO Finals, and won ONE ring. And, in that one ring season, his 66-16 Bucks beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round; a 48-34 Lakers team without BOTH West and Baylor in the WCF's; and a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

After MAGIC arrived we all know what happened next. Kareem won FIVE rings, and was an integral part of four of them. BUT, in their first title together, while Kareem played brilliantly in the first five games of the Finals, he SAT OUT the clincher, and in a game in which MAGIC carried LA to a title. Here again, Kareem SAT OUT with a sprained ankle, and yet Wilt was ripped for sitting down for TWO MINUTES in a game seven. Just more of the Wilt "double standard."

And, Kareem was outplayed by Moses and his 40-42 '81 Rockets (Moses outscored him, and held him to .462 shooting) in a stunning loss. And in the '83 Finals, Moses just POUNDED Kareem. In the '84 Finals, Kareem shot .481 overall (in a league that shot .485), and in a pivotal game five, he went 7-25 from the floor.

In Kareem's 85-86 regular season, he averaged 33.0 ppg on .634 shooting against the Hakeem's Rockets in their five H2H's (going 4-1 against them.) Then, in the playoffs, he is outscored, outrebounded, and outshot by Hakeem...albeit by a slim margin (and Kareem was 39.)

In the '88 post-season, Kareem wins a ring, DESPITE his AWFUL play. He averaged 14.1 ppg, 5.5 rpg, and shot .464. It was even WORSE in the Finals, in which he averaged 13.1 ppg, 4.1 rpg, and shot .414 in his seven games. And, in the game seven win, and in 29 minutes, he scored 4 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 3 rebounds, and 5 PFs.

And, in his last season, albeit at the age of 42, he was basically worthless, and his team, without both Magic and Scott, were SWEPT by the Pistons.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kareem played well in the '74 Finals, no question. BUT, in the deciding seventh game, and on his HOME FLOOR, he was outscored, outshot, and outrebounded by the 6-9 Dave Cowens, in yet ANOTHER blow-out loss.

Kareem was traded to the Lakers after a disappointing 74-75 season in which he broke his hand and missed 16 games (remember the "choker" Wilt PLAYING with a BROKEN hand, and DOMINATING, in game five of the Finals?)

His 75-76 season is interesting. Remember, in his 71-72 season, Kareem played 44.2 mpg, and scored 34.8 ppg on .574 shooting, for a 63-19 Bucks team that had a +11.1 scoring differential. How come, in his 75-76 season, and with an average, at best, roster, he only played 41.2 mpg, and only scored 27.7 ppg on .529 shooting? BTW, Bob McAdoo averaged 31.1 ppg that season.

I covered the rest of the decade already. In any case, Kareem, playing with mostly STACKED rosters, and in perhaps the weakest decade for champions in NBA history (the '75 Warriors, with Barry and Wilkes and a bunch of no-names, going 48-34; the 49-33 Blazers; the 44-38 Bullets; and the 52-30 Sonics), went to TWO Finals, and won ONE ring. And, in that one ring season, his 66-16 Bucks beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round; a 48-34 Lakers team without BOTH West and Baylor in the WCF's; and a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

After MAGIC arrived we all know what happened next. Kareem won FIVE rings, and was an integral part of four of them. BUT, in their first title together, while Kareem played brilliantly in the first five games of the Finals, he SAT OUT the clincher, and in a game in which MAGIC carried LA to a title. Here again, Kareem SAT OUT with a sprained ankle, and yet Wilt was ripped for sitting down for TWO MINUTES in a game seven. Just more of the Wilt "double standard."

And, Kareem was outplayed by Moses and his 40-42 '81 Rockets (Moses outscored him, and held him to .462 shooting) in a stunning loss. And in the '83 Finals, Moses just POUNDED Kareem.

In the '84 Finals, Kareem shot .481 overall (in a league that shot .485), and in a pivotal game five, he went 7-25 from the floor.

In Kareem's 85-86 regular season, he averaged 33.0 ppg on .634 shooting against the Hakeem's Rockets in their five H2H's (going 4-1 against them.) Then, in the playoffs, he is outscored, outrebounded, and outshot by Hakeem...albeit by a slim margin (and Kareem was 39.)

In the '88 post-season, Kareem wins a ring, DESPITE his AWFUL play. He averaged 14.1 ppg, 5.5 rpg, and shot .464. It was even WORSE in the Finals, in which he averaged 13.1 ppg, 4.1 rpg, and shot .414 in his seven games. And, in the game seven win, and in 29 minutes, he scored 4 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 3 rebounds, and 5 PFs.

And, in his last season, albeit at the age of 42, he was basically worthless, and his team, without both Magic and Scott, were SWEPT by the Pistons.
But I made a huge list of Wilt doing bad but you said he never choked in any of them.
You're a biased, bring every other player down and prop up Wilt scumbag.

[jlauber]

But I made a huge list of Wilt doing bad but you said he never choked in any of them.
You're a biased, bring every other player down and prop up Wilt scumbag.

Yep. Like Chamberlain "doing bad" in a playoff series, in which he took his 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss, against HOF-laden 62-18 Celtic team, at their peak in the "Dynasty" run, with a game seven of 30 points, on 12-15 shooting from the field, and 32 rebounds, including scoring eight of Philly's last ten points (including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs left, and a dunk over Ruissell with five secs left)...in a series in which he outscored Russell, per game , 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 31.4 rpg to 25.2 rpg; outshot Russell from the floor by a staggering .555 to .447 margin; and even outshot Russell from the line by a .583 to .472 margin (and outscored him from the line by a 49-18 margin.)

But, as you pointed out, Wilt shot 6-13 from the line in that game seven (while Russell was at 1-2), and THAT was Wilt "the choker."

I could go on with series-after-series, in which Chamberlain just DOMINATED his OPPOSING CENTERS in virtually ALL 29 of his playoff series....

[Hands of Iron]

Bird is My 2nd Favorite Player but You re Overrating Him a Bit. He Played with the 2nd Best Cast from 80-87 in the League after the Lakers and Pistons 88 on.

When Bird Arrived The Celtics Still had MAXWELL (who should be in the HOF) and COWENS and ARCHIBALD Playing Pretty Well along Maravich too. So it wasn`t that bad of a Team.

Then When They Won the Ring the Next Year They Did cause they Picked Up ROBERT PARISH in 1980-81 and that dude had a Higher PER tha Bird and Maxwell that Season. Then the Next Rings with McHALE, DJ, AINGE AND WALTON.

After Bird Retired the Celtics still made it to the Play-Offs. Same with Magic and his Lakers. They Still Made the Play-Offs in 92-93

While for Barkley he left the Sixers which he carried from 87-92 THEY DIDN` MAKE THE PLAY-OFFS

There weren't any opinions in that post, nor did I rate him anywhere. If anything's being overrated here it's McHale and Parish with their whopping 1 combined All-NBA (1) team selection over their careers. They were instrumental in helping Bird win titles and on the flip side it played a huge role in their HOF designation.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yep. Like Chamberlain "doing bad" in a playoff series, in which he took his 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss, against HOF-laden 62-18 Celtic team, at their peak in the "Dynasty" run, with a game seven of 30 points, on 12-15 shooting from the field, and 32 rebounds, including scoring eight of Philly's last ten points (including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs left, and a dunk over Ruissell with five secs left)...in a series in which he outscored Russell, per game , 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 31.4 rpg to 25.2 rpg; outshot Russell from the floor by a staggering .555 to .447 margin; and even outshot Russell from the line by a .583 to .472 margin (and outscored him from the line by a 49-18 margin.)

But, as you pointed out, Wilt shot 6-13 from the line in that game seven (while Russell was at 1-2), and THAT was Wilt "the choker."

I could go on with series-after-series, in which Chamberlain just DOMINATED his OPPOSING CENTERS in virtually ALL 29 of his playoff series....
1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In the Game 5, Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7, Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in game 2. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Divisional Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Divisional Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-68 (41.2%)

1965 Divisional Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1962 Divisional Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

[kennethgriffin]

I find it difficult to see Kobe as lucky.

His prime was wasted on Smush Parker and Kwame Brown.

It was his own fault tho, he was a little bitc.h

lol@ you thinking kobes prime was 2 years

his prime is 2003-2009

his peak is 2006-2009

[SuperPippen]

Kobe.

Doens't make him any less great of a player (and :roll: at the Kobe haters panicking their asses off) but, yea, Kobe's been a pretty lucky player.

[Legends66NBA7]

Kobe.

Doens't make him any less great of a player (and :roll: at the Kobe haters panicking their asses off) but, yea, Kobe's been a pretty lucky player.

Would you say he's been the "luckiest" player of all-time ?

[SuperPippen]

Would you say he's been the "luckiest" player of all-time ?

Something like that is hard to quantify, really.

If you think about it, pretty much every all-time great with a ring has been extremely lucky.

MJ is lucky that the Bulls drafted Pippen.
Bird is lucky that he got to be a part of the greatest frontcourt ever.
Magic is lucky that he got to play with Kareem, and with a team that catered to his exact style.
Kobe is lucky that he got to spend his early years with Shaq at his peak.

The list goes on and on.

And that's not to say that a player's success comes solely from luck, or even mostly. There is obviously a lifetime of hard work that goes into the success of a player's career, and all-time great players are usually the most critical part of championship teams.

But to great, you definitely need some luck. To win a championship you need a little more luck.

Kobe's been very fortunate to have great teammates, but you could say that about every basketball legend. I don't know if I'd be willing to call him the luckiest ever.

[jlauber]

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In the Game 5, Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In game 7, Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in game 2. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Divisional Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Divisional Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-68 (41.2%)

1965 Divisional Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1962 Divisional Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

'73 FINALS...in the clinching game five loss, Chamberlain puts up a 23-21 game on 9-16 shooting, while West shoots 5-17. The Lakers lose four close games in the waning seconds, and West is awful in all of them.

70 FINALS. A Chamberlain, only four months removed from MAJOR KNEE SURGERY, puts up the ONLY 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA HISTORY, with a 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, .625 seven game series. In the "must win" game six, it is WILT who leads the Lakers with a 45 point, 27 rebound, 20-27 shooting performance. In game seven, while West is just murdered by Frazier, Chamberlain outscores MVP Reed by a 21-4 margin, outrebounds him by a 24-3 margin, and outshoots him from the floor by a 10-16 to 2-5 margin.

'69 FINALS. In game seven, and left on the bench in the last five minutes of a two point loss by a coach who would be fired immediately after the game because of it, Chamberlain outscores Russell, 18-6; outshoots Russell, 7-8 to 2-7; and outrebounds Russell, 27-21. Meanwhile, while Chamberlain is shooting .875 from the FIELD in that game seven, his teammates collectively shoot .360! BTW, and as ALWAYS, Chamberlain outscores Russell, outrebounds Russell, badly outshoots Russell from the field, and OUTSCORES Russell from the line in that series.

68 ECF's. Chamberlain, PLAYING with an assortment of injuries, and NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game two on (and playing every minute of the series) and with his roster DECIMATED by injuries, puts up a 22-25 series, and as ALWAYS, outscores, outrebounds, and outshoots Russell from the field in that series. In the clinching game seven loss, an injured and IGNORED Wilt outscores Russell, 14-12, and outrebounds him, 34-26. Oh, and his teammates collectively shot 25-74 from the field.

66 ECF's. In that game five loss, in which Wilt went 8-25 from the line, he STILL scores 46 points, with 34 rebounds (Russell was 18 points, 31 rebounds, and was 6-10 from the line.) In that series, Wilt averaged 28 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509. His teammates collectively shot .352 in that series.

65 ECF's. Covered it already. One of the most dominating series ever by an all-time great against another all-time great. Chamberlain DOMINATES Russell in EVERY facet of the game. 30 ppg, 31 rpg, and shoots .555. Probably the single greatest playoff series ever.

64 FINALS. Chamberlain's roster, outgunned 8-2 by HOFers, loses 4-1 in that series, BUT, they would lose the last two games of that series in the waning seconds. In game four, Chamberlain outscores Russell, 27-8, while outrebounding Russell, 38-19. Overall, Chamberlain outscores Russell, per game, 29.2 ppg to 11.2 ppg; outrebounds Russell, per game, 27.6 to 25.2 rpg; and outshoots Russell from the field, .517 to .386.

62 ECF's. In that game seven, Chamberlain is SWARMED, and the game recaps credit Wilt with "OUTSTANDING DEFENSE", in a two point loss, in which Chamberlain scored Philly's LAST FIVE points. In the series, he outscores Russell, per game, 34-22; outrebounds Russell, per game , 26-25, and outshoots Russell, .468 to .399. In game two, Wilt outscores Russell, 42-9, while outrebounding him, 37-20, in a seven point win. Oh, and in the entire post-season, Chamberlain's teammates collectively shoot .354.

[Round Mound]

Barkley was a selfish jackass who never elevated his teammates games and would be known as the biggest career loser superstar of all time if Tmac wasnt born.

Explain to me why he had a Higher Winning% than Jordan with NO PIPPEN NO GRANT AND NO PHIL JACKSON from 87 to 90?
Explain To Me Why He is...

Top 10 All Time in EFF?
Top 10 and 9 All Time in PER?
Top 8 All Time in WS Per 48 Minutes?
Top 5 All Time in Plus/Minus?
Top 4 All Time in Shot Made/Missed Diferential?

Looks More like a Top 10 All Time Player than a Loser.

[Hands of Iron]

Explain to me why he had a Higher Winning% than Jordan with NO PIPPEN NO GRANT AND NO PHIL JACKSON from 87 to 90?
Explain To Me Why He is...

Top All Time in EFF?
Top 10 and 9 All Time in PER?
Top 8 All Time in WS Per 48 Minutes?
Top 5 All Time in Plus/Minus?
Top 4 All Time in Shot Made/Missed Diferential?

Looks More like a Top 10 All Time Player than a Loser.

Round Mound, Do you feel like Charles outplayed Jordan in a lot of their head-to-heads from an individual standpoint? I was looking into this in regards to Bird and Jordan.

The best gauge of their head-to-heads at least for the regular season, would be the 1986-87 and 1987-88 years. Jordan was in his first two seasons in '85 and '86 and Larry suffered a career-threatening back injury in '89. In 87-88, Bird was in the final two seasons of his prime while Jordan averaged 37.1 and 35.0 ppg (his two highest) respectively and won his first MVP Award in 1988.

11-14-86
M. Jordan: 48 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 17/33 FG (51.5%)
L. Bird: 37 points, 5 rebounds, 10 assists, 13/25 FG (52.0%)

01-02-87
M. Jordan: 34 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 13/31 FG (41.9%)
L. Bird: 37 points, 8 rebounds, 9 assists, 11/18 FG (61.1%)

01-27-87
M. Jordan: 30 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 13/34 FG (38.2%)
L. Bird: 24 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists, 10/26 FG (38.5%)

01-28-87
M. Jordan: 27 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 11/23 FG (47.8%)
L. Bird: 26 points, 5 rebounds, 9 assists, 11/17 (64.7%)

03-27-87
M. Jordan: 22 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 9/23 FG (39.1%)
L. Bird: 41 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 17/29 FG (58.6%)

04-17-87
M. Jordan: 17 points, 4 rebounds, 8 assists, 5/15 FG (33.3%)
L. Bird: 38 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 17/29 FG (58.6%)

01-12-88
M. Jordan: 42 points, 4 rebounds, 6 assists, 19/35 FG (54.3%)
L. Bird: 38 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists, 18/31 FG (58.1%)

03-18-88
M. Jordan: 50 points, 5 rebounds, 9 assists, 19/32 FG (59.4%)
L. Bird: 19 points, 10 rebounds, 6 assists, 8/19 FG (42.1%)

03-20-88
M. Jordan: 26 points, 4 rebounds, 7 assists, 10/18 FG (55.6%)
L. Bird: 33 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists, 14/21 FG (66.7%)

04-21-88
M. Jordan: 39 points, 3 rebounds, 8 assists, 17/33 FG (51.5%)
L. Bird: 44 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 19/29 FG (66.7%)


Totals (10 Games):
M. Jordan: 33.5 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 5.9 apg, 48.0% FG, 27.7 FGA/G
L. Bird: 33.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 7.0 apg, 56.6% FG, 24.4 FGA/G

[keepinitreal]

Luck?

Well, Russell was esentially drafted by the Celtics (he was actually traded to them) to a Celtics team that had gone 39-33 the year before, AND, who ALSO drafted Tom Heinsohn in the same draft. Then, the very next season they would draft Sam Jones. A few years later, when Cousy was in the twilight of his career, they essentially replaced him with John Havlicek.

And as great as Russell was, going 10-0 in his game seven's, his teams won SEVEN of them by margins of four points, or less, including a couple of OT wins.

Of course, he also had Sam Jones hitting something like 25 game winners in the post-season (and eight in the Finals), and players like Havlicek making miraculous plays, or Nelson hitting miraculous shots to win game seven's.

BTW, Havlicek continued to play after Russell retired, ands within a couple of years, the Celts added Dave Cowens and then went 56-26, and an all-time best 68-14 in 72-73, and then won two titles in the next three seasons.


Kobe? How much luckier can it get when he goes to a loaded Laker team, and plays with a Shaq who was the best player in the game for some five straight seasons in the Kobe-era. A Shaq who put up the most dominant Finals in three straight years.

When Shaq left, the Lakers immediately plummetted to a 34-48 record. A couple of years later they stole Gasol, and the rest is history. Three straight Finals, and two more rings.

True, Kobe was instrumental in getting past the Spurs in the early 00's, and was their best player in those three straight Finals appearances at the end of the decade, but there was no question he was somewhat "lucky."

The fact was, there was TON of "luck" involved in BOTH players winning their rings. And, the game is a TEAM game, too. Neither win rings without a TON of support.

repped. good points

[Cali Syndicate]

technically kobe won with a pretty average team in 09 and 10 compared to most all time

bynum was a scrub back then ( 8 and 6ppg? )
odom never was an allstar before


i think having allot of help in todays nba is the only way to beat a team like miami

so its not like its going against anything


just like the 80's celtics and 80's lakers both needing 3-4 hall of famers to compete with each other..




OP is just a jealous fat hater who fell in love with a lazy no defense playing doughnut eating underachiver... and hes taking it out on the fortunate

Compare the 09 and 10 Lakers relative to the league, not of all-time. Sure the 09 team compared to the Showtime Lakers doesn't stand a chance but compared to the 09 Magic, Cavs, Nuggets? Lakers still had the most complete team outside of the Celtics, which didn't matter with KG going down

Same goes for 10 as well.

[Cali Syndicate]

Nice to see this post got looked over.

I wonder why.

His posts on Bill Russell are epic.

[DetroitPistonFan]

definitely kobe. Career 45% chucker should never win as the leading man. he was carried by GOAT/dominant centers. Kobe's barely a top 30 player all time and barely a top 10 SG all time.
LOL @ Pau and Bynum being dominant centers. Another one of those eh?

[jlip]

Round Mound, Do you feel like Charles outplayed Jordan in a lot of their head-to-heads from an individual standpoint? I was looking into this in regards to Bird and Jordan.

The best gauge of their head-to-heads at least for the regular season, would be the 1986-87 and 1987-88 years. Jordan was in his first two seasons in '85 and '86 and Larry suffered a career-threatening back injury in '89. In 87-88, Bird was in the final two seasons of his prime while Jordan averaged 37.1 and 35.0 ppg (his two highest) respectively and won his first MVP Award in 1988.

11-14-86
M. Jordan: 48 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 17/33 FG (51.5%)
L. Bird: 37 points, 5 rebounds, 10 assists, 13/25 FG (52.0%)

01-02-87
M. Jordan: 34 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 13/31 FG (41.9%)
L. Bird: 37 points, 8 rebounds, 9 assists, 11/18 FG (61.1%)

01-27-87
M. Jordan: 30 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 13/34 FG (38.2%)
L. Bird: 24 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists, 10/26 FG (38.5%)

01-28-87
M. Jordan: 27 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 11/23 FG (47.8%)
L. Bird: 26 points, 5 rebounds, 9 assists, 11/17 (64.7%)

03-27-87
M. Jordan: 22 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 9/23 FG (39.1%)
L. Bird: 41 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 17/29 FG (58.6%)

04-17-87
M. Jordan: 17 points, 4 rebounds, 8 assists, 5/15 FG (33.3%)
L. Bird: 38 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 17/29 FG (58.6%)

01-12-88
M. Jordan: 42 points, 4 rebounds, 6 assists, 19/35 FG (54.3%)
L. Bird: 38 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists, 18/31 FG (58.1%)

03-18-88
M. Jordan: 50 points, 5 rebounds, 9 assists, 19/32 FG (59.4%)
L. Bird: 19 points, 10 rebounds, 6 assists, 8/19 FG (42.1%)

03-20-88
M. Jordan: 26 points, 4 rebounds, 7 assists, 10/18 FG (55.6%)
L. Bird: 33 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists, 14/21 FG (66.7%)

04-21-88
M. Jordan: 39 points, 3 rebounds, 8 assists, 17/33 FG (51.5%)
L. Bird: 44 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 19/29 FG (66.7%)


Totals (10 Games):
M. Jordan: 33.5 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 5.9 apg, 48.0% FG, 27.7 FGA/G
L. Bird: 33.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 7.0 apg, 56.6% FG, 24.4 FGA/G

Thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=146170)

[Ne 1]

Compare the 09 and 10 Lakers relative to the league, not of all-time. Sure the 09 team compared to the Showtime Lakers doesn't stand a chance but compared to the 09 Magic, Cavs, Nuggets? Lakers still had the most complete team outside of the Celtics, which didn't matter with KG going down

Same goes for 10 as well.


There have been more teams that could pose front-courts on the Lakers level than guards that have been on Kobe's level in 2009 & 2010. Honesty there were probably 8-10 teams in the league with front-courts that would have been contenders with Kobe, while there were only 1 or 2 guards Kobe's level.

[Cali Syndicate]

There have been more teams that could pose front-courts on the Lakers level than guards that have been on Kobe's level in 2009 & 2010. Honesty there were probably 8-10 teams in the league with front-courts that would have been contenders with Kobe, while there were only 1 or 2 guards Kobe's level.

True, Not many guards on Kobe's level if any in 09 and 10. Perhaps Wade but that's about it. But Bynum, Gasol, Odom and Ariza/Artest was not only one of the if not the best front rotation in all of basketball but also each player was well suited for the triangle offense. Of those 8-10 teams, which teams had low post players who the triangle could play through?

[ThaRegul8r]

And as great as Russell was, going 10-0 in his game seven's, his teams won SEVEN of them by margins of four points, or less, including a couple of OT wins.

Of course, he also had Sam Jones hitting something like 25 game winners in the post-season (and eight in the Finals)

Hmm. 25 game-winners, in the postseason alone.

List them.

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
11)
12)
13)
14)
15)
16)
17)
18)
19)
20)
21)
22)
23)
24)
25)

For comparison, can one of the many Jordan fans list Jordan's postseason game-winners? We need to get a sense of the magnitude of the claim being made here. 25 postseason game-winners.

How many players in NBA history have 25 game-winners to their name overall? Counting everything. Regular and postseason. To get an idea of someone with 25 game-winners only counting the postseason, completely excluding anything that may have been done in the regular season.

[fpliii]

Hmm. 25 game-winners, in the postseason alone.

List them.

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
11)
12)
13)
14)
15)
16)
17)
18)
19)
20)
21)
22)
23)
24)
25)

For comparison, can one of the many Jordan fans list Jordan's postseason game-winners? We need to get a sense of the magnitude of the claim being made here. 25 postseason game-winners.

How many players in NBA history have 25 game-winners to their name overall? Counting everything. Regular and postseason. To get an idea of someone with 25 game-winners only counting the postseason, completely excluding anything that may have been done in the regular season.

I think I'm actually the origin of that claim...25 is a rough guess based on the articles I've read, but I don't think it's far from the truth. I'm going to try to put the list together over the next few days.

8 didn't originate from me, though...I think that's a quote from a former Celtic? Somebody mentioned it in another thread...

[Figlo]

Kobe the superstar who always gets carried. Main guy for 1 championship lol.

First Shaq, then Pau now Howard what's next? when he goes to the euroleague will he have Anthony Parker/Ike Doigu join forces with him

[Legends66NBA7]

For comparison, can one of the many Jordan fans list Jordan's postseason game-winners? We need to get a sense of the magnitude of the claim being made here. 25 postseason game-winners.

10 ?

1) Game winning shot (22 seconds left) vs 85 Bucs, Game 3
2) Potential game winner (6 seconds left) vs 89 Cavs, Game 5
3) "The Shot" vs 89 Cavs, Game 5
4) Game winning shot (3 seconds left) vs 89 Pistons
5) Game tying shot (3 seconds left) vs 91 Lakers, Game 3 (Would you count this ?)
6) "The Shot - Part 2" vs 93 Cavs, Game 4
7) Game tying shot (19 seconds left) vs 96 Knicks (See #5)
8) Game winning shot (end of regulation) vs 97 Jazz, Game 1
9) "Flu Game" (25 seconds left) vs 97 Jazz, Game 5
10) "The Shot - Part 3" (5 seconds left) vs 98 Jazz, Game 6


How many players in NBA history have 25 game-winners to their name overall? Counting everything. Regular and postseason.

While I don't have all the data for this, since 96-97 till now, these names should be the ones that have at least 25+ game winners:

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Vince Carter
Dirk Nowitzki
Carmelo Anthony
Tim Duncan
LeBron James
Ray Allen
Kevin Garnett


The above I am pretty sure have over 25+ game winners. The ones that have over 30+, I believe are Kobe, Vince, MJ, Dirk, Melo, and LeBron.

[Hands of Iron]

Thread (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=146170)

So basically I typed all that out on my phone for nothing. :facepalm

It's the truth, however. No Way was Larry Bird about to get Sonned like some clown while he still had the goods to do something about it. The guy had a fraction of the athleticism Jordan possessed. Too bad he just didn't have the skills To. Take. Those. Shots. Har har

[Bandito]

http://childrensministryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/microsoft-help5.jpg

Always With Plenty of Great Superstars and All Stars Around Them To Win

Who You Got For Luckier?
Well Bill Russell did win how many like 9 championships?:lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe the superstar who always gets carried. Main guy for 1 championship lol.

First Shaq, then Pau now Howard what's next? when he goes to the euroleague will he have Anthony Parker/Ike Doigu join forces with him
Pau Gasol was the best player on one of those last 2 Laker Championship teams?

I guess I learn something new everyday

[Cali Syndicate]

10 ?

1) Game winning shot (22 seconds left) vs 85 Bucs, Game 3
2) Potential game winner (6 seconds left) vs 89 Cavs, Game 5
3) "The Shot" vs 89 Cavs, Game 5
4) Game winning shot (3 seconds left) vs 89 Pistons
5) Game tying shot (3 seconds left) vs 91 Lakers, Game 3 (Would you count this ?)
6) "The Shot - Part 2" vs 93 Cavs, Game 4
7) Game tying shot (19 seconds left) vs 96 Knicks (See #5)
8) Game winning shot (end of regulation) vs 97 Jazz, Game 1
9) "Flu Game" (25 seconds left) vs 97 Jazz, Game 5
10) "The Shot - Part 3" (5 seconds left) vs 98 Jazz, Game 6



While I don't have all the data for this, since 96-97 till now, these names should be the ones that have at least 25+ game winners:

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Vince Carter
Dirk Nowitzki
Carmelo Anthony
Tim Duncan
LeBron James
Ray Allen
Kevin Garnett


The above I am pretty sure have over 25+ game winners. The ones that have over 30+, I believe are Kobe, Vince, MJ, Dirk, Melo, and LeBron.

MJ was 9/18 on game winners in the playoffs.

And MJ had I believe 28 game winners, didn't eclipse 30.

Also I think Kobe and VC are the only ones with 30+ GW's.

[Legends66NBA7]

MJ was 9/18 on game winners in the playoffs.

And MJ had I believe 28 game winners, didn't eclipse 30.

Well, I counted the "Flu Game" shot, because really... 1 second difference between 24-25. It's a Game winner to me.

I'm actually not sure about MJ's game winners, I actually guessed on who had over 30+, just thought MJ might have done it.


Also I think Kobe and VC are the only ones with 30+ GW's.

The last place I checked, Kobe and Vince are the only ones from 96-07 through 2010-11 season that had over 30+ game winners... but I'm pretty sure more players have added more by then. Again, just guess on the 30+.

[Cali Syndicate]

Well, I counted the "Flu Game" shot, because really... 1 second difference between 24-25. It's a Game winner to me.

I'm actually not sure about MJ's game winners, I actually guessed on who had over 30+, just thought MJ might have done it.



The last place I checked, Kobe and Vince are the only ones from 96-07 through 2010-11 season that had over 30+ game winners... but I'm pretty sure more players have added more by then. Again, just guess on the 30+.

Those were pretty good guesses.

[Legends66NBA7]

Those were pretty good guesses.

If you mean about MJ's playoff game winners, had to look it up again, but I was pretty certain about most of them.

I'm sure LeBron and Melo have over 25+ too, if not, their damn close to it. Melo also has the best conversion rate overall, for any known superstar player.

[Cali Syndicate]

If you mean about MJ's playoff game winners, had to look it up again, but I was pretty certain about most of them.

I'm sure LeBron and Melo have over 25+ too, if not, their damn close to it. Melo also has the best conversion rate overall, for any known superstar player.

I thought it said you guessed on his playoff game winners.

And yeah, Melo's cold blooded on game winners. He had that one taken away where Ginobli hit the game winner then took the charge. Kobe's obviously more decorated but it's hard pressed not to go with Melo with the game on the line.

[TheBigVeto]

The best gauge of their head-to-heads at least for the regular season, would be the 1986-87 and 1987-88 years. Jordan was in his first two seasons in '85 and '86 and Larry suffered a career-threatening back injury in '89. In 87-88, Bird was in the final two seasons of his prime while Jordan averaged 37.1 and 35.0 ppg (his two highest) respectively and won his first MVP Award in 1988.

11-14-86
M. Jordan: 48 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 17/33 FG (51.5%)
L. Bird: 37 points, 5 rebounds, 10 assists, 13/25 FG (52.0%)

01-02-87
M. Jordan: 34 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 13/31 FG (41.9%)
L. Bird: 37 points, 8 rebounds, 9 assists, 11/18 FG (61.1%)

01-27-87
M. Jordan: 30 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 13/34 FG (38.2%)
L. Bird: 24 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists, 10/26 FG (38.5%)

01-28-87
M. Jordan: 27 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 11/23 FG (47.8%)
L. Bird: 26 points, 5 rebounds, 9 assists, 11/17 (64.7%)

03-27-87
M. Jordan: 22 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 9/23 FG (39.1%)
L. Bird: 41 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 17/29 FG (58.6%)

04-17-87
M. Jordan: 17 points, 4 rebounds, 8 assists, 5/15 FG (33.3%)
L. Bird: 38 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 17/29 FG (58.6%)

01-12-88
M. Jordan: 42 points, 4 rebounds, 6 assists, 19/35 FG (54.3%)
L. Bird: 38 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists, 18/31 FG (58.1%)

03-18-88
M. Jordan: 50 points, 5 rebounds, 9 assists, 19/32 FG (59.4%)
L. Bird: 19 points, 10 rebounds, 6 assists, 8/19 FG (42.1%)

03-20-88
M. Jordan: 26 points, 4 rebounds, 7 assists, 10/18 FG (55.6%)
L. Bird: 33 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists, 14/21 FG (66.7%)

04-21-88
M. Jordan: 39 points, 3 rebounds, 8 assists, 17/33 FG (51.5%)
L. Bird: 44 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 19/29 FG (66.7%)


Totals (10 Games):
M. Jordan: 33.5 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 5.9 apg, 48.0% FG, 27.7 FGA/G
L. Bird: 33.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 7.0 apg, 56.6% FG, 24.4 FGA/G

Bird did pretty well against Jordan.
Of course after those 2 seasons it's all downhill for him.
Too bad he was born too early, if he plays in this era, he would've gone to Germany and got that magic injection.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Bill Russell joined a college team that had never been to the NCAA tournament and won 55 games in a row and back to back titles....that college may have produced nobody since...if so it was like...Bill cartwright. College has not been to the final four since he left. couple nice runs in the 70s but nothing in the 35-40 years since.

He then went and led his team to a gold medal winning by a record point margin. At which time he joins a team with a coach who had 16 years of never winning and a group of players who had never been to the finals. They won it all. Then lost in 7 with him injured the next finals. Then won 8 in a row and 10 of 11.

He retired.

They missed the playoffs back to back using those high picks to draft back to back superstars to rebuild for the 70s.

Bill Russell wasnt getting lucky. He was making every team he played for great.

If any of the teams he won on proved themselves capable of winning before he got there or after he left...he was lucky to share time with them.

Everyone who played with Russell was lucky to play with him. Not the other way around.

Russell still had 20 allstars to play with regardless.

[INDI]

Bill Russell played with multiple hall of famers.

Shaq played with Kobe, wade, penny, Nash, rondo, Garnett, ray Allen, and Lebron James.

Kobe played with shaq, gasol and Bynum ( he hasn't played with nash and Howard yet) and even when he gets the chance, shaq has still played with more talent

[swi7ch]

Prime Shaq
Prime Pau
Prime D12

2x MVP in Steve Nash
GOAT Coach in Phil Jackson

Damn.

If only LBJ was as lucky as the Mamba.

[Math2]

Bill Russell joined a college team that had never been to the NCAA tournament and won 55 games in a row and back to back titles....that college may have produced nobody since...if so it was like...Bill cartwright. College has not been to the final four since he left. couple nice runs in the 70s but nothing in the 35-40 years since.

He then went and led his team to a gold medal winning by a record point margin. At which time he joins a team with a coach who had 16 years of never winning and a group of players who had never been to the finals. They won it all. Then lost in 7 with him injured the next finals. Then won 8 in a row and 10 of 11.

He retired.

They missed the playoffs back to back using those high picks to draft back to back superstars to rebuild for the 70s.

Bill Russell wasnt getting lucky. He was making every team he played for great.

If any of the teams he won on proved themselves capable of winning before he got there or after he left...he was lucky to share time with them.

Everyone who played with Russell was lucky to play with him. Not the other way around.

Totally agree.........But I don't see how Kobe can be "lucky" to play with Dwight Howard. So I say Bill Russell, solely because he hasn't had to play with Howard.

[caved]

Honstly, i would put Jordan ahead of everyone to be honest..

[G.O.A.T]

And as great as Russell was, going 10-0 in his game seven's, his teams won SEVEN of them by margins of four points, or less, including a couple of OT wins.

Of course, he also had Sam Jones hitting something like 25 game winners in the post-season (and eight in the Finals), and players like Havlicek making miraculous plays, or Nelson hitting miraculous shots to win game seven's.


The idea of Jones having made 25 game winners is among the worst exaggerations of Jlaubers numerous hyperbolic claims.

The actual number is two. But let's not let facts get in the way. Anyway, here's a recap of Jones most significant late game playoff performances. The guy was most definitely super clutch, but as you'll see, not super-human.

Also important to note than Nelson never hit a game winner (just one lucky shot with like 2 minutes left in a game seven that hit the back of the rim went straight up and feel back down through the net.

Further to note, Havlicek made one miraculous play and even that was just a steal. The Celtics had three game winning baskets in total during the Russell dynasty, two by Jones, one by Heinsohn and one by Russell. Both Russell's and Heinsohn's were tip ins.


1959 NBA Finals game one - Jones scores either 8 or 10 fourth quarter points unexpected to help Boston survive the upstart Lakers and rookie sensation Elgin Baylor. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=WetPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YFUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4311,689325&dq=celtics&hl=en)

1962 Eastern Finals game seven - The birth of the Jones legend. Sam scores a team high 28 points including the winning basket with two seconds left. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8Y4oAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZcoEAAAAIBAJ&pg=818,1095819&dq=celtics&hl=en) playoff game winner #1

1962 NBA Finals game seven - Jones scores 27 in the final game, 25 after time and half of Boston's 10 overtime points as the Celtics win their 4th straight NBA title. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=lAVIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w_8MAAAAIBAJ&pg=900,5501646&dq=celtics&hl=en)

1963 NBA Finals game one - After rookie John Havlicek went down early, Jones has a huge game with 29 points, 15 rebounds and 7 assists including a key rebound and assist late as the Celtics hang on to a lead late and beat the Lakers by three. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Dj1QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9VYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5862,2101861&dq=celtics&hl=en)

1965 Eastern Finals game seven - The game known for Havlicek's steal only came down to that because of Jones 37 point performance, a game high.

1966 Eastern Finals game four - Jones leads a fourth quarter comeback as the Celtics stun Wilt's Sixers in overtime. Jones finished with a game high 27 points, 13 coming in the fourth and overtime as Boston took control of the series. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=PidIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=twANAAAAIBAJ&pg=3599,4903605&dq=celtics&hl=en)

1966 NBA Finals game one - Despite playing a poor all-around game, Jones did hit the game tying lay-up late in regulation off a dribble drive, but the Celtics lost in overtime.

1967 Eastern Finals game four - Jones was crucial in the only game Boston stole from the unstoppable Warriors. He scored a game high 32 points and with the score tied at 115 late hit a bank shot (around 35 seconds left) and then two free throws (17 seconds left) to put Boston up for good. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=mhhdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=SVoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=2806,452917&dq=celtics&hl=en)

1968 Eastern Finals game seven - Again it was Jones providing crucial scoring late in a game seven. His team and game high 22 points (six in the final two minutes) helped Boston win 100-96 and complete a 3-1 down comeback. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1UsqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xE8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6442,1458680&dq=celtics&hl=en)

1969 Eastern Finals game six - Boston clinches the series behind 29 from Jones. Sam hits a free throw with two seconds left that stretches Boston's lead from two to an insurmountable three. The Celtics win by one and advance to the Finals. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=OwkkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=rgEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7101,4673947&dq=celtics+jones&hl=en)

1969 NBA Finals game seven - Picket Fence play, the ultimate walk-off. 'nuff said.
playoff game winner #2

[fpliii]

The idea of Jones having made 25 game winners is among the worst exaggerations of Jlaubers numerous hyperbolic claims.

The actual number is two. But let's not let facts get in the way. Anyway, here's a recap of Jones most significant late game playoff performances. The guy was most definitely super clutch, but as you'll see, not super-human.


1959 NBA Finals game one - Jones scores either 8 or 10 fourth quarter points unexpected to help Boston survive the upstart Lakers and rookie sensation Elgin Baylor. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=WetPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=YFUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4311,689325&dq=celtics&hl=en)

1962 Eastern Finals game seven - The birth of the Jones legend. Sam scores a team high 28 points including the winning basket with two seconds left. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8Y4oAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ZcoEAAAAIBAJ&pg=818,1095819&dq=celtics&hl=en) playoff game winner #1

1962 NBA Finals game seven - Jones scores 27 in the final game, 25 after time and half of Boston's 10 overtime points as the Celtics win their 4th straight NBA title. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=lAVIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w_8MAAAAIBAJ&pg=900,5501646&dq=celtics&hl=en)

1963 NBA Finals game one - After rookie John Havlicek went down early, Jones has a huge game with 29 points, 15 rebounds and 7 assists including a key rebound and assist late as the Celtics hang on to a lead late and beat the Lakers by three. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Dj1QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9VYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5862,2101861&dq=celtics&hl=en)

1965 Eastern Finals game seven - The game known for Havlicek's steal only came down to that because of Jones 37 point performance, a game high.

1966 Eastern Finals game four - Jones leads a fourth quarter comeback as the Celtics stun Wilt's Sixers in overtime. Jones finished with a game high 27 points, 13 coming in the fourth and overtime as Boston took control of the series. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=PidIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=twANAAAAIBAJ&pg=3599,4903605&dq=celtics&hl=en)

1966 NBA Finals game one - Despite playing a poor all-around game, Jones did hit the game tying lay-up late in regulation off a dribble drive, but the Celtics lost in overtime.

1967 Eastern Finals game four - Jones was crucial in the only game Boston stole from the unstoppable Warriors. He scored a game high 32 points and with the score tied at 115 late hit a bank shot (around 35 seconds left) and then two free throws (17 seconds left) to put Boston up for good. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=mhhdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=SVoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=2806,452917&dq=celtics&hl=en)

1968 Eastern Finals game seven - Again it was Jones providing crucial scoring late in a game seven. His team and game high 22 points (six in the final two minutes) helped Boston win 100-96 and complete a 3-1 down comeback. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1UsqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xE8EAAAAIBAJ&pg=6442,1458680&dq=celtics&hl=en)

1969 Eastern Finals game six - Boston clinches the series behind 29 from Jones. Sam hits a free throw with two seconds left that stretches Boston's lead from two to an insurmountable three. The Celtics win by one and advance to the Finals. article link (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=OwkkAAAAIBAJ&sjid=rgEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7101,4673947&dq=celtics+jones&hl=en)

1969 NBA Finals game seven - Picket Fence play, the ultimate walk-off. 'nuff said.
playoff game winner #2

as I mentioned earlier, I think the 25 is my fault...I'd mentioned that I've seen his name about that many times in close game situations, and wouldn't be surprised if he had that many game winners

I've zeroed in on all of the close games during the time, and it looks like 25 is impossible (Boston only won 16 playoff games by 1-3 points during his tenure, so that would be the max if he made every one of those shots and in some cases free throws)...it appears it just 'seems' that he made that many big shots

[Ne 1]

True, Not many guards on Kobe's level if any in 09 and 10. Perhaps Wade but that's about it. But Bynum, Gasol, Odom and Ariza/Artest was not only one of the if not the best front rotation in all of basketball but also each player was well suited for the triangle offense. Of those 8-10 teams, which teams had low post players who the triangle could play through?

I agree with you for the most part. Maybe Wade or healthy Chris Paul. But Kobe's range is what has made the Lakers length especially successful, otherwise teams could just clog the paint.

I just feel Kobe detractors overrate the Lakers front court to try to diminish him.

Their "amazing" front-court and the Lakers didn't even finish top 5 in OREB%, DREB%, or rebounding differential. I especially like how they always bring up Bynum. I can understand Gasol/Odom, who were definitely key for the Lakers 3 straight Finals and back-to-back titles, but including Bynum?

Bynum-
2008 Reg season: Only played 35 games.
2008 Playoffs: Didn't play. Lakers still made the Finals without him.

2009 Reg season: Only played 50 games.
2009 Playoffs: Averaged 6/3.

2010 Playoffs: Averaged 9/7.

[Ikill]

I would say kevin Durants even luckier than Kobe he gets to play on a great that is very young. He's the clear cut best player and doesnt even get the most hate when his team loses

[SilkkTheShocker]

Kobe gets the edge because the Celtics were nothing before Russell. Kobe went to the 2nd best franchise (at the time) and a stacked team in 96. Great player, but Kobe needs a dominant frountcourt to thrive.

[scm5]

That is Why PER always shows who the More Dominant and Efficient Player is

Hakeem and Barkley > Magic and Bird in Terms of Impact...but Ofcourse Idiots Will Always Say...WHO GOT MORE RINGS? Crap...:rolleyes: :facepalm

Are you kidding me?

I would entertain the argument for Hakeem. He's at least in the Top 10.

BARKLEY?!

Even MJ said Barkley would never win a title and he was right.

[G.O.A.T]

as I mentioned earlier, I think the 25 is my fault...I'd mentioned that I've seen his name about that many times in close game situations, and wouldn't be surprised if he had that many game winners

I've zeroed in on all of the close games during the time, and it looks like 25 is impossible (Boston only won 16 playoff games by 1-3 points during his tenure, so that would be the max if he made every one of those shots and in some cases free throws)...it appears it just 'seems' that he made that many big shots

right. his resume in big games is very impressive too, but Russell's do-or-die game five & seven numbers show the real key to Boston's success.

1957 Finals - 19 points 32 rebounds 2 assists - 7-17 fg, 5-10 ft
1959 EDF - 18 points 32 rebounds 2 assists - 2-3 ft
1960 Finals - 22 points 35 rebounds 4 assists - 7-15 fg, 8-10 ft
1962 EDF - 19 points 22 rebounds 3 assists - 7-14 fg, 5-5 ft
1962 Finals - 30 points 40 rebounds at least 4 assists and 8 blocks -
1963 EDF - 20 points 24 rebound 6 assists - 8-14 fg, 4-6 ft
1965 EDF - 15 points 29 rebounds 8 assists - 7-16 fg, 1-2 ft
1966 ECSF - 16 points 31 rebounds 5 assists - 5-8 fg, 6-6 ft
1966 Finals - 25 points 32 rebounds 1 assist - 10-22 fg, 5-5 ft
1968 EDF - 12 points 26 rebounds 5 assists 10 blocks - 4-6 fg, 4-10 ft
1969 Finals - 6 points 21 rebounds 6 assists 7 blocks - 2-7 fg, 2-4 ft

In total (based on what numbers are out there I've found) - 18.2 ppg 29.5 rpg 4.6 apg shooting 48% from the field and 69% from the line. (both above his usual averages) Throw in 5-7 blocks per game and those numbers are unreal considering the circumstances.

[fpliii]

right. his resume in big games is very impressive too, but Russell's do-or-die game five & seven numbers show the real key to Boston's success.

1957 Finals - 19 points 32 rebounds 2 assists - 7-17 fg, 5-10 ft
1959 EDF - 18 points 32 rebounds 2 assists - 2-3 ft
1960 Finals - 22 points 35 rebounds 4 assists - 7-15 fg, 8-10 ft
1962 EDF - 19 points 22 rebounds 3 assists - 7-14 fg, 5-5 ft
1962 Finals - 30 points 40 rebounds at least 4 assists and 8 blocks -
1963 EDF - 20 points 24 rebound 6 assists - 8-14 fg, 4-6 ft
1965 EDF - 15 points 29 rebounds 8 assists - 7-16 fg, 1-2 ft
1966 ECSF - 16 points 31 rebounds 5 assists - 5-8 fg, 6-6 ft
1966 Finals - 25 points 32 rebounds 1 assist - 10-22 fg, 5-5 ft
1968 EDF - 12 points 26 rebounds 5 assists 10 blocks - 4-6 fg, 4-10 ft
1969 Finals - 6 points 21 rebounds 6 assists 7 blocks - 2-7 fg, 2-4 ft

In total (based on what numbers are out there I've found) - 18.2 ppg 29.5 rpg 4.6 apg shooting 48% from the field and 69% from the line. (both above his usual averages) Throw in 5-7 blocks per game and those numbers are unreal considering the circumstances.

that's pretty impressive for sure

my current focus of research is Russell (working on his game logs), so maybe I'll skip ahead to those games and help you flesh out the lines

[greymatter]

http://childrensministryonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/microsoft-help5.jpg

Always With Plenty of Great Superstars and All Stars Around Them To Win

Who You Got For Luckier?

Stupid question. Bryant by a landslide. Bill Russell made guys like Tommy Heinsohn and KC Jones into hall of famers. Kobe has only played with players who became great in their own right.

[Duncan21formvp]

Kobe because in no year was he the most productive player on the team the years the Lakers won the title.

[Hands of Iron]

Bird did pretty well against Jordan.
Of course after those 2 seasons it's all downhill for him.
Too bad he was born too early, if he plays in this era, he would've gone to Germany and got that magic injection.

Bird was one of the Coldest Mother****ers Ever (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp0NMFf9Dkg&feature=youtube_gdata_player). He hangs with Jordan any day of the week, prime-for-prime.

[Owl]

Stupid question. Bryant by a landslide. Bill Russell made guys like Tommy Heinsohn and KC Jones into hall of famers. Kobe has only played with players who became great in their own right.
Heinsohn was getting in anyway. Consistently 2nd team NBA behind Bayor and Pettit from 61-64. Here's the guys from that era who had his sort of numbers
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1957&year_max=1970&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=22&c2stat=trb_per_mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=10&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_mp

There's no one with more appearances on that list who isn't in the Hall of Fame but there are a few with less.

He got first place MVP votes in '61 and has a MVP shares total that no one from his era who is outside the Hall of Fame has.

But sure Heinsohn got into the Hall of Fame solely because he played with Bill Russell (who incidentally he beat out for RotY).

[Bigsmoke]

what about Barkley?

Moses Malone, Dr.J, Mo Cheeks, Kevin Johnson, Hakeem, Drexler, and Scottie Pippen

[greymatter]

Heinsohn was getting in anyway. Consistently 2nd team NBA behind Bayor and Pettit from 61-64. Here's the guys from that era who had his sort of numbers
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1957&year_max=1970&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=22&c2stat=trb_per_mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=10&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_mp

There's no one with more appearances on that list who isn't in the Hall of Fame but there are a few with less.

He got first place MVP votes in '61 and has a MVP shares total that no one from his era who is outside the Hall of Fame has.

But sure Heinsohn got into the Hall of Fame solely because he played with Bill Russell (who incidentally he beat out for RotY).

"There are two types of superstars. One makes himself look good at the expense of the other guys on the floor. But there's another type who makes the players around him look better than they are, and that's the type Russell was."

-- Don Nelson


"That team (the Celtics) wasn't so great until he got there. Once he got there, he (Bill Russell) was the piece that they were looking for. A lot of people have said to me, "Wilt, what if you had that team? Boy, you would never have lost!" NOT TRUE. If I was on their team, I would be taking away from some of what the other guys were doing. Everybody had a role on that team. (Tom) Heinsohn wouldn't be getting the same number of shots, nor would (Bill) Sharman, nor would (Bob) Cousy because I'd be shooting the ball a whole lot more. Bill Russell gave them just what they needed. I would've given them a little bit more in certain things, which I think would have made the team NOT AS GOOD. I've always believed that he made that team exactly what it was supposed to be. And you couldn't get any better."

- Wilt Chamberlain

PS: No one really gives a fcuk about ROY. However, the only reason Heinsohn won it was because Russell didn't play a full season.

[G.O.A.T]

Heinsohn was getting in anyway. Consistently 2nd team NBA behind Bayor and Pettit from 61-64. Here's the guys from that era who had his sort of numbers
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1957&year_max=1970&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=22&c2stat=trb_per_mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=10&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_mp

There's no one with more appearances on that list who isn't in the Hall of Fame but there are a few with less.

He got first place MVP votes in '61 and has a MVP shares total that no one from his era who is outside the Hall of Fame has.

But sure Heinsohn got into the Hall of Fame solely because he played with Bill Russell (who incidentally he beat out for RotY).


I don't think Heinsohn is a hall of famer without Russell.

I don't think he gets the all-nba love or mvp votes either if he's not a Celtic with Russell.

The guys Heinsohn's career was most like from that era were Tom Meschery and Rudy LaRusso, those guys are not in the Hall of Fame because the stars they played with didn't beat the star Tom played with.

In fact, look at this list of guys and their basic resumes. Only Heinsohn made the hall of this group...

(Career averages, Peak Averages, All-Star Teams, All-NBA 1st-2nd
Tom Heinsohn 19-9-2 - 22-11-2 - 6 - 0-4


Rudy LaRusso 16-9-2 - 22-10-3 - 5 - 0-0
Larry Foust 14-10-2 - 17-13-3 - 8 - 1-1
Willie Naulls 16-9-2 - 25-14-3 - 4 - 0-0
Richie Guerin 17-5-5 - 30-8-7 - 6 - 0-3
Bob Love 18-6-1 - 26-9-2 - 4 0-2
Chet Walker 18-7-2 - 22-10-3 - 7 - 0-0
Red Kerr 14-11-2 -18-15-3 - 3 - 0-0
Gene Shue 14-4-4 - 23-6-7 - 5 - 1-1
Larry Costello 12-4-5 - 18-6-7 - 6 - 0-1

[ihoopallday]

They still have to play the game. No championships are guaranteed.

[Hands of Iron]

what about Barkley?

Moses Malone, Dr.J, Mo Cheeks, Kevin Johnson, Hakeem, Drexler, and Scottie Pippen

:oldlol: :D

[Owl]

"There are two types of superstars. One makes himself look good at the expense of the other guys on the floor. But there's another type who makes the players around him look better than they are, and that's the type Russell was."

-- Don Nelson


"That team (the Celtics) wasn't so great until he got there. Once he got there, he (Bill Russell) was the piece that they were looking for. A lot of people have said to me, "Wilt, what if you had that team? Boy, you would never have lost!" NOT TRUE. If I was on their team, I would be taking away from some of what the other guys were doing. Everybody had a role on that team. (Tom) Heinsohn wouldn't be getting the same number of shots, nor would (Bill) Sharman, nor would (Bob) Cousy because I'd be shooting the ball a whole lot more. Bill Russell gave them just what they needed. I would've given them a little bit more in certain things, which I think would have made the team NOT AS GOOD. I've always believed that he made that team exactly what it was supposed to be. And you couldn't get any better."

- Wilt Chamberlain

PS: No one really gives a fcuk about ROY. However, the only reason Heinsohn won it was because Russell didn't play a full season.
RotY was peripheral, but no that isn't the reason. The reason Russell didn't get it was because the Celtics had a better record without him then they did with him. Look it up.

And Chamberlain had an interest in talking up Russell. It doesn't mean he didn't consistently say that Russell had better teammates (would be genuinely interested as to the source for that quote btw).

As for his point that Russell fit better than Wilt I won't argue, partially because I haven't seen nearly enough games to honestly know, but primarily because it's irrellevant to whether Heinsohn was a HOFer.

I'm not sure as to how a couple of quotes from Russell's friends (though that does depend on when Wilt said it) disproves the notion that Heinsohn was an Hall of Famer.

[DatAsh]

that's pretty impressive for sure

my current focus of research is Russell (working on his game logs), so maybe I'll skip ahead to those games and help you flesh out the lines

That would be awesome.

Off topic, but where can I find the google-doc you put up on all the Wilt-Russell H2Hs?

[greymatter]

RotY was peripheral, but no that isn't the reason. The reason Russell didn't get it was because the Celtics had a better record without him then they did with him. Look it up.

And Chamberlain had an interest in talking up Russell. It doesn't mean he didn't consistently say that Russell had better teammates (would be genuinely interested as to the source for that quote btw).

http://www.nba.com/history/chamberlain_50.html


Q: Can you talk more about Bill?

A: Bill's so unique. He's proud and intelligent. He and I were very close. We talked on the phone a lot. He's a lot different than people think he is, but he's very, very proud. One of the things that I used to laugh at him about -- cause he was always laughing at me for a number of things -- was that he asked for a dollar more than me. (laughs) He told the Celtics, "Whatever Wilt signs for, I want a dollar more." They had a headline, 'Wilt Signs For $100,000' which was a lot to begin with. Then in the Boston paper the very next day almost, 'Russ signs for $100,001!' I gave Russ a call the next day, I said, "Russ, they got you again my man! I signed for $300,000!" (laughs) He was really angry... but we used to have some fun.

He'd come over my house for Thanksgiving and he'd bring Sam Jones and KC Jones and we'd have dinner. My mother would cook and then Bill would go up to my bed and fall asleep. When he'd come back down my mom would say, "William, you take it easy on my son tonight." Then they'd go out and beat us the next day and my mother would say, "We're not going to invite them to dinner no more, no more!" (laughs)

What I respected about Bill, more than anything else, was that he basically played me in a manner that I think the game of basketball should be played. He knew he couldn't out physical me and he never tried. He would try to steal the ball, he would use his quickness, he would use his agility, he would use the things that he had going for him to play wonderfully strong defense with the help from his team. No other player ever played me that way. That team wasn't so great until he got there. Once he got there, he was the piece that they were looking for. A lot of people have said to me, "Wilt, what if you had that team? Boy, you would never have lost!" Not true. If I was on their team, I would be taking away from some of what the other guys were doing. Everybody had a role on that team. (Tom) Heinsohn wouldn't be getting the same number of shots, nor would (Bill) Sharman, nor would (Bob) Cousy because I'd be shooting the ball a whole lot more. Bill Russell gave them just what they needed. I would've given them a little bit more in certain things, which I think would have made the team not as good. I've always believed that he made that team exactly what it was supposed to be. And you couldn't get any better.



As for his point that Russell fit better than Wilt I won't argue, partially because I haven't seen nearly enough games to honestly know, but primarily because it's irrellevant to whether Heinsohn was a HOFer.

I'm not sure as to how a couple of quotes from Russell's friends (though that does depend on when Wilt said it) disproves the notion that Heinsohn was an Hall of Famer.

More than one teammate of his has said what Don Nelson said. Just haven't really gotten around to mining for those quotes.

[Owl]

I don't think Heinsohn is a hall of famer without Russell.

I don't think he gets the all-nba love or mvp votes either if he's not a Celtic with Russell.

The guys Heinsohn's career was most like from that era were Tom Meschery and Rudy LaRusso, those guys are not in the Hall of Fame because the stars they played with didn't beat the star Tom played with.

In fact, look at this list of guys and their basic resumes. Only Heinsohn made the hall of this group...

(Career averages, Peak Averages, All-Star Teams, All-NBA 1st-2nd
Tom Heinsohn 19-9-2 - 22-11-2 - 6 - 0-4


Rudy LaRusso 16-9-2 - 22-10-3 - 5 - 0-0
Larry Foust 14-10-2 - 17-13-3 - 8 - 1-1
Willie Naulls 16-9-2 - 25-14-3 - 4 - 0-0
Richie Guerin 17-5-5 - 30-8-7 - 6 - 0-3
Bob Love 18-6-1 - 26-9-2 - 4 0-2
Chet Walker 18-7-2 - 22-10-3 - 7 - 0-0
Red Kerr 14-11-2 -18-15-3 - 3 - 0-0
Gene Shue 14-4-4 - 23-6-7 - 5 - 1-1
Larry Costello 12-4-5 - 18-6-7 - 6 - 0-1
Heinsohn's career averages are better than every player you list and he had more All Star Game Appearances than the majority AND (and I hate it when people ignore this when putting down Russell's teammates) there was a cap of 3 players per team on the all-star squads, which meant Heinsohn, Cousy, Sharman, Jones and Havlicek were competing for spots and guys like Ramsey, Howell, Sanders, K.C. and Nelson were effectively locked out from being All-Stars. Finally he had more All-NBA appearances than any of the players listed.

There have been published lists placing Heinsohn at equal 16th, 57th, 61st, 68th and 71st best player of all time. But if you want to believe that Tom Heinsohn doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame, fine.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe because in no year was he the most productive player on the team the years the Lakers won the title.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Owl]

http://www.nba.com/history/chamberlain_50.html





More than one teammate of his has said what Don Nelson said. Just haven't really gotten around to mining for those quotes.
Cheers for the link I googled it and saw a lot of forums and Bleacher columns but couldn't see a concrete, legit source.

I know Bill's teammates are very complementary about him. I just don't think that means those quotes should be used to diminish the players making them. Suddenly dismissing the careers of Ramsey, Heinsohn, Sharman, Bailey Howell, K.C. Jones, Tom Sanders and to a lesser degree (and less directly) Cousy, Havlicek and Sam Jones, seems to be popular and I really dislike this.

I'm not even trying to do Russell down, I just want some perspective. He arrived on a team that went 39-33 the year before (2nd best record in the league) and had Cliff Hagan and Frank Ramsey away on military service. Even if they hadn't got Russell the Celtics would have lined up with

Macauley/Loscutoff
Heinsohn/Loscutoff/Hagan
Hagan/Ramsey
Sharman/Ramsey
Cousy/?

And that ? would be K.C. Jones if he too hadn't been called called up to serve the military. And that would be being coached by Red Auerbach.

Now I wouldn't phrase it as O.P. did. Any one player would be more lucky to have played with Russell than Russell was to play with them. But Bill Russell consistently played with excellent teammates. Up until Wilt arrived arrived on the 76ers Russell had had had the best 2-12 supporting cast of any star by a substantial margin every single year.

[Odinn]

Bill Russell joined a college team that had never been to the NCAA tournament and won 55 games in a row and back to back titles....that college may have produced nobody since...if so it was like...Bill cartwright. College has not been to the final four since he left. couple nice runs in the 70s but nothing in the 35-40 years since.

He then went and led his team to a gold medal winning by a record point margin. At which time he joins a team with a coach who had 16 years of never winning and a group of players who had never been to the finals. They won it all. Then lost in 7 with him injured the next finals. Then won 8 in a row and 10 of 11.

He retired.

They missed the playoffs back to back using those high picks to draft back to back superstars to rebuild for the 70s.

Bill Russell wasnt getting lucky. He was making every team he played for great.

If any of the teams he won on proved themselves capable of winning before he got there or after he left...he was lucky to share time with them.

Everyone who played with Russell was lucky to play with him. Not the other way around.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[DatAsh]

f course, he also had Sam Jones hitting something like 25 game winners in the post-season (and eight in the Finals)


The idea of Jones having made 25 game winners is among the worst exaggerations of Jlaubers numerous hyperbolic claims.

The actual number is two.

:facepalm

Stuff like this really makes me wonder how there are people out there that think he's the best poster on this site.

That sad part is that he seemingly knows quite a bit, and I love the fact that he defends the NBA old timers, but it's almost ruined with his ridiculous bias.

[Round Mound]

Round Mound, Do you feel like Charles outplayed Jordan in a lot of their head-to-heads from an individual standpoint? I was looking into this in regards to Bird and Jordan.

The best gauge of their head-to-heads at least for the regular season, would be the 1986-87 and 1987-88 years. Jordan was in his first two seasons in '85 and '86 and Larry suffered a career-threatening back injury in '89. In 87-88, Bird was in the final two seasons of his prime while Jordan averaged 37.1 and 35.0 ppg (his two highest) respectively and won his first MVP Award in 1988.

11-14-86
M. Jordan: 48 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 17/33 FG (51.5%)
L. Bird: 37 points, 5 rebounds, 10 assists, 13/25 FG (52.0%)

01-02-87
M. Jordan: 34 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists, 13/31 FG (41.9%)
L. Bird: 37 points, 8 rebounds, 9 assists, 11/18 FG (61.1%)

01-27-87
M. Jordan: 30 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 13/34 FG (38.2%)
L. Bird: 24 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists, 10/26 FG (38.5%)

01-28-87
M. Jordan: 27 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists, 11/23 FG (47.8%)
L. Bird: 26 points, 5 rebounds, 9 assists, 11/17 (64.7%)

03-27-87
M. Jordan: 22 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 9/23 FG (39.1%)
L. Bird: 41 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists, 17/29 FG (58.6%)

04-17-87
M. Jordan: 17 points, 4 rebounds, 8 assists, 5/15 FG (33.3%)
L. Bird: 38 points, 8 rebounds, 7 assists, 17/29 FG (58.6%)

01-12-88
M. Jordan: 42 points, 4 rebounds, 6 assists, 19/35 FG (54.3%)
L. Bird: 38 points, 9 rebounds, 8 assists, 18/31 FG (58.1%)

03-18-88
M. Jordan: 50 points, 5 rebounds, 9 assists, 19/32 FG (59.4%)
L. Bird: 19 points, 10 rebounds, 6 assists, 8/19 FG (42.1%)

03-20-88
M. Jordan: 26 points, 4 rebounds, 7 assists, 10/18 FG (55.6%)
L. Bird: 33 points, 7 rebounds, 8 assists, 14/21 FG (66.7%)

04-21-88
M. Jordan: 39 points, 3 rebounds, 8 assists, 17/33 FG (51.5%)
L. Bird: 44 points, 10 rebounds, 3 assists, 19/29 FG (66.7%)


Totals (10 Games):
M. Jordan: 33.5 ppg, 4.9 rpg, 5.9 apg, 48.0% FG, 27.7 FGA/G
L. Bird: 33.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, 7.0 apg, 56.6% FG, 24.4 FGA/G

Nope MJ got the Best of All of Them Individually but Bird

Bird Played Great vs MJ...That is Why MJ Always Mentions Bird as the Best Forward He Played Against.

[G.O.A.T]

:facepalm

Stuff like this really makes me wonder how there are people out there that think he's the best poster on this site.

That sad part is that he seemingly knows quite a bit, and I love the fact that he defends the NBA old timers, but it's almost ruined with his ridiculous bias.

Yeah he's very knowledgeable, but he also consistently distorts facts to serve his agenda du jour. Usually very much pro-Wilt related.

For a while he was claiming Russell was the greatest ever, but that was a ploy to again boost Wilt above the Kareem's and MJ's by saying he would have won so many more rings if it wasn't for Russell.

Now its back to the "Russell was lucky to escape thanks to his amazing teammates and Wilt only fell short because his pathetic teammates could not measure up" angle. Fun stuff...

I advise to ignore him as far as direct conversation goes, it will lead you in a very frustrating circle.

[lakers_forever]

Bill Russell joined a college team that had never been to the NCAA tournament and won 55 games in a row and back to back titles....that college may have produced nobody since...if so it was like...Bill cartwright. College has not been to the final four since he left. couple nice runs in the 70s but nothing in the 35-40 years since.

He then went and led his team to a gold medal winning by a record point margin. At which time he joins a team with a coach who had 16 years of never winning and a group of players who had never been to the finals. They won it all. Then lost in 7 with him injured the next finals. Then won 8 in a row and 10 of 11.

He retired.

They missed the playoffs back to back using those high picks to draft back to back superstars to rebuild for the 70s.

Bill Russell wasnt getting lucky. He was making every team he played for great.

If any of the teams he won on proved themselves capable of winning before he got there or after he left...he was lucky to share time with them.

Everyone who played with Russell was lucky to play with him. Not the other way around.


:applause:

In Round of Mound and other geeks world, PER is the only thing that matters.
Charles Barkley is not in the same league of the great Bill Russell. A man who did everything he could to win (and he did at all levels like no one else in history). Someone who gave it all, specially on defense and leadership, something people like Barkley could not.

[Round Mound]

what about Barkley?

Moses Malone, Dr.J, Mo Cheeks, Kevin Johnson, Hakeem, Drexler, and Scottie Pippen

[B]1st: 1984-85: Barkley was a ROOKIE and A SUB PLAYING FEW MINUTES...DR J was PASSED HIS PRIME Ages 34-37 from 84-87

2nd: 1985-86: Barkley Post Ups His Best All Around Season but MOSES LEFT FOR THE PLAY-OFFS!

3rd: 1985-86: Andrew Toney Suffers CAREER ENDING INJURY. Hardly Played.

4th: Mo Cheeks was Good Point Guard but He Never Passed the Ball to Barkley. He Was Good NOT Great.

5th: 1996-97: Barkley Goes to Houston as a 33 YEAR OLD PASSED HIS PRIME ROLE PLAYER FILLED WITH BACK INJURIES AND SUFFERS A KNEE INJURY IN THAT SAME SEASON. Hakeem was PASSED HIS PRIME AGE 34 and Drexler was PASSED HIS PRIME AGED 35

6th: 1997-98: PLAYS INJURED

7th: 1998-1999: Barkley COMES BACK FROM HIS KNEE INJURY STILL WITH BACK PROBLEMS and Pippen DID NOTHING IN THE PLAY-OFFS. OLD CRIPPLED BARKLEY WAS N

[Hands of Iron]

Nope MJ got the Best of All of Them Individually but Bird

Bird Played Great vs MJ...That is Why MJ Always Mentions Bird as the Best Forward He Played Against.

:applause:

There was definitely some serious flexin going on there. How to effortlessly and unselfishly be the unequivocal 'Alpha Dog'

Larry Bird Shows You How (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp0NMFf9Dkg&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

[G.O.A.T]

Heinsohn's career averages are better than every player you list and he had more All Star Game Appearances than the majority AND (and I hate it when people ignore this when putting down Russell's teammates) there was a cap of 3 players per team on the all-star squads, which meant Heinsohn, Cousy, Sharman, Jones and Havlicek were competing for spots and guys like Ramsey, Howell, Sanders, K.C. and Nelson were effectively locked out from being All-Stars. Finally he had more All-NBA appearances than any of the players listed.

There have been published lists placing Heinsohn at equal 16th, 57th, 61st, 68th and 71st best player of all time. But if you want to believe that Tom Heinsohn doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame, fine.

Heinsohn's career averages are inflated a bit by his short career.

Most of those guys were more productive players at their peak than Heinsohn and had as many or more prime years.

It's not that Heinsohn is worse than those guys, it's just that I'm not sure he's better than all of them or is the only one whose career numbers and skill level warrant him a spot in the HOF.

And while he did make a good number of all-NBA teams, it's hard to argue that that wasn't because of the teams success. After all guys with better numbers were passed over every year in favor of Heinsohn who played on a balanced champion.

[fpliii]

That would be awesome.

Off topic, but where can I find the google-doc you put up on all the Wilt-Russell H2Hs?

sorry, just saw your post, here you go:

http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdEpOeFRwY29NRTUtWVlFWVJ5TkFDY 3c

[kileer7]

sorry, just saw your post, here you go:

http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdEpOeFRwY29NRTUtWVlFWVJ5TkFDY 3c

Whoa awesome! I love learning as much as I can about Wilt and Russell.

[Owl]

Heinsohn's career averages are inflated a bit by his short career.

Most of those guys were more productive players at their peak than Heinsohn and had as many or more prime years.

It's not that Heinsohn is worse than those guys, it's just that I'm not sure he's better than all of them or is the only one whose career numbers and skill level warrant him a spot in the HOF.

And while he did make a good number of all-NBA teams, it's hard to argue that that wasn't because of the teams success. After all guys with better numbers were passed over every year in favor of Heinsohn who played on a balanced champion.
Guerin's peak was a single year that looks like a fluke (nearly 8ppg better than his next year), other than that his rebounds are significantly worse (despite not playing with a Russell calibre rebounder) and his prime was shorter than Heinsohn's, and he had less great players to share scoring with.

Naulls again shorter peak and prime hence worse career numbers despite not playing much longer than Heinsohn, and again much less competition for rebounds.

Foust, weaker era/competition, shorter prime hence worse career numbers despite not playing much longer than Heinsohn.

As we go through the list the players are different era and different position to Heinsohn so I'm not going to keep doing this in part because I don't feel like doing players who were very good in their own time down, and in part because not all the players are easily comparable, for example Bob Love and Chet Walker are different era and position.

So I'll put this way I've said where Heinsohn has ranked in GOAT type rankings I'll give them for the guys you listed

Rudy LaRusso #146 (Slam 500, 2011), Top 100 Appearances 0
Larry Foust #99 (Heroes ..., 2005), Top 100 Appearances 1
Willie Naulls #115 (Slam 500, 2011), Top 100 Appearances 0
Richie Guerin # 94 (Pro Basketball Statistics,1993), Top 100 Appearances 1
Bob Love #92 (Slam 500, 2011), Top 100 Appearances 1
Chet Walker #25 (Pro Basketball Statistics, 1993), Top 100 Appearances 3
Johnny Kerr #75 (Pro Basketball Statistics,1993), Top 100 Appearances 1
Gene Shue #86 (Pro Basketball Statistics,1993), Top 100 Appearances 1
Larry Costello #81 (Pro Basketball Statistics,1993), Top 100 Appearances 1

Walker was listed above Heinsohn once. None of the others ever were even if I look into seperate position based rankings. So virtually nobody has ever suggested those guys were better than Heinsohn and only Walker is considered within his ballpark. None other than Walker are particularly likely to make anyones top 100 these days. Heinsohn, thus far has invariably been in lists that go 100 deep.

Heinsohn belongs in the Hall of Fame and to compare his numbers without accounting for who he was playing with, and list all-star appearances without the caveat of the 3 player per team, is to my mind misleading.
You can't say other guys had better numbers and Heinsohn got accolades and say that was based on being on a winner without acknowledging that Heinsohn's numbers were damaged by who he was playing with. Sharing shots with Cousy, Sharman, Russell and to a lesser degree Ramsey and Loscutoff and later with Jones, Havlicek, Russell etc will have taken down his ppg. But that's not the big deal, the main thing is sharing rebounds with Russell. Heinsohn got over 10 boards per game in years when Russell claimed 22.7 and 24. I suspect no other player has reached double figures with a teammate making 20 a game. Tommy Heinsohn's rebounding numbers would look a heck of a lot better if he hadn't been playing with Bill Russell.

Even without bearing those 2 substantial caveats in mind though, I think his numbers are better and his All-NBA credentials are better, and his MVP shares are better. Tommy Heinsohn made the Hall of Fame on merit.

[pauk]

Kobe by far... Russell didnt get any significant change in lineup, he just spammed rings with what he had (11 rings in 13 seasons or something) and he was the MVP/FMVP/Best Player of his team in all those championship runs... unlike Kobe...

[asdf1990]

kobe by far, I can't remember the last time someone had a super stacked team for 80%+ of their career. He also had the goat nba coach for majority of his career. Luckbe ridebigmantoringsbe

[Rubio2Gasol]

Do you mean like a roster capable of winning or a healthy team in the playoffs capable of winning?

Wade has had a team capable of winning for like 6 of 9 years but his team hasn't always been healthy...like some of Kobe's.

Ducan has had what you would call a competitive team around him basically his entire career, Magic as well, Bird as well.

Kobe at the start of his career didn't really have a team capable of winning and then for those 3 years...so probably 5 of his 17 season were on a non competitive team.

[DatAsh]

Kobe Bryant, pretty easily. Russell played with much greater talent over all, but he played in a league where virtually ever team would be considered stacked by today's standards, so you have to look at it in perspective. Both guy were blessed with similar amounts of talent over their careers relative to the league they played in.

Bill played on what would be considered a great team(without him) for 10 years of his 13 year career.

Kobe played on what would be considered a great team(without him) for 14 years of his 17 year career.

The difference was, in the three years that Kobe's teammates faltered, the entire team fell apart; in the three years that Russell's teammates faltered, he led them to three finals appearances and two championships.

[swi7ch]

Neither.

It's Steve Nash. Dude was playing with scrubs one day to playing with not one, not two, not three, but FOUR future Hall of Famers!

Dreams/wishes do come true! :bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe Bryant, pretty easily. Russell played with much greater talent over all, but he played in a league where virtually ever team would be considered stacked by today's standards, so you have to look at it in perspective. Both guy were blessed with similar amounts of talent over their careers relative to the league they played in.

Bill played on what would be considered a great team(without him) for 10 years of his 13 year career.

Kobe played on what would be considered a great team(without him) for 14 years of his 17 year career.

The difference was, in the three years that Kobe's teammates faltered, the entire team fell apart; in the three years that Russell's teammates faltered, he led them to three finals appearances and two championships.
yeah, right :roll:

Russell was never the leading scorer, in fact he was the the 3RD leading scorer on the majority of the championships, 4TH on a couple and even 7TH in his last one.
And in Game 7s he had Sam Jones drop 30-40 points

In Kobe's 09 and 10 Championship teams he was the leading scorer on his team by atleast double digits and he also led in assists. In 01 and 02 he was less then 2 ppg behind Shaq.

11 rings while being the 3rd-7th leading scorer on the team.

And I know that defense and rebounding is a huge part of the game. Ben Wallace did that. Russell was like Ben Wallace was on the 04 Pistons. He led his team in bpg and rpg, but was the 4th leading scorer, and for a big man shot a bad % like Russell did. When you look at 60s rebounding numbers and compare it to the pace of today, his rpg wouldn't be close to 20.