Magic Johnson vs Larry Bird. Year-by-Year.

[1987_Lakers]

1980 - Bird
1981 - Bird
1982 - Bird
1983 - Bird
1984 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1986 - Bird
1987 - Magic
1988 - Magic
1989 - Magic
1990 - Magic
1991 - Magic

[StateOfMind12]

I would give Magic in '85 but the rest is correct and I think most people already know this though, at least the people that know anything about the two.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

That's funny because the years that Magic is given the edge just happen to coincide with the years he was asked to score more and take on more responsability because Kareem was getting super old. Hmmmmmm.

[1987_Lakers]

That's funny because the years that Magic is given the edge just happen to coincide with the years he was asked to score more and take on more responsability because Kareem was getting super old. Hmmmmmm.

That's funny because the years that Magic is given the edge just happen to coincide with the years Bird was starting to have back issues. Hmmm.

[clipps]

1980 - Magic
1981 - Bird
1982 - Bird
1983 - Bird
1984 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1986 - Bird
1987 - Magic
1988 - Magic
1989 - Magic
1990 - Magic
1991 - Magic

Fixed. FMVP > ROY

[1987_Lakers]

Fixed. FMVP > ROY

Kareem was the REAL FMVP that year.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

That's funny because the years that Magic is given the edge just happen to coincide with the years Bird was starting to have back issues. Hmmm.

That's a stretch homie. Magic beat Bird in the NCAA Championship in 1979, he was finals MVP in 1980 and 1982 and he beat Bird in the NBA finals in 1985. Bird's back was fine during all of these things. I'm not shitting on Larry Bird becasue I think the dude was a God. I just don't see what your list is supposed to be telling people.

[plowking]

Fixed. FMVP > ROY

Bird made a 29 win team a 61 win team... And was voted the better regular season player throughout the year. Was All NBA first team...

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Kareem was the REAL FMVP that year.

Not to the people that had votes that counted. The REAL FMVP is the guy who has the trophy in his case. Anybody else is a woulda been, coulda been, shoulda been MVP and that dont count for much in the real world.

Again I'm not shitting on Kareem because he's my second favorite player ever. I'm just stating that fact that Magic got the award hence he is the REAL FMVP.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Bird made a 29 win team a 61 win team... And was voted the better regular season player throughout the year. Was All NBA first team...

The Lakers and their fans don't give a shit about the regular season.

[1987_Lakers]

That's a stretch homie. Magic beat Bird in the NCAA Championship in 1979, he was finals MVP in 1980 and 1982 and he beat Bird in the NBA finals in 1985. Bird's back was fine during all of these things. I'm not shitting on Larry Bird becasue I think the dude was a God. I just don't see what your list is supposed to be telling people.

Doesn't that just mean that Magic had the better team?:confusedshrug:

[plowking]

The Lakers and their fans don't give a shit about the regular season.

That's great, the rest of the league does when it comes to ranking players. Winning championships is not the end all and be all.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Doesn't that just mean that Magic had the better team?:confusedshrug:

And how the player's team did isn't one of the most important factors in deciding who is the regular season MVP?

[1987_Lakers]

And how the player's team did isn't one of the most important factors in deciding who is the regular season MVP?

Yes it is. Which is why Kareem won the MVP in 1980.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

That's great, the rest of the league does when it comes to ranking players. Winning championships is not the end all and be all.

The rest of the league doesn't give a shit about ranking players homie. That honor is reserved for armchair basketball analysts. I think that 99.9% of the players and teams in the league do think winning the championship is the be all and end all.

[plowking]

The rest of the league doesn't give a shit about ranking players homie. That honor is reserved for armchair basketball analysts. I think that 99.9% of the players and teams in the league do think winning the championship is the be all and end all.

And yet while Kobe was dominating in 05-06 and 06-07, not winning championships, NBA players were still ranking him the best in the league. Funny that.

[LeBird]

Doesn't that just mean that Magic had the better team?:confusedshrug:

It does, clearly. Bird took a few guys off a pick up truck to the NCAA finals, unbeaten IIRC.

[fpliii]

son of a bitch, we all knew these vs threads would eventually give birth to Magic v Bird

I don't have time to do this now (not that anybody cares), but I'm looking forward to reading responses tomorrow before putting my list together

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Having the better team doesn't win you the FMVP. Yes, you and your team have to get there. Once you do get there it's the people that perform that are given the FMVP. FMVP is not a team award. Magic performed and he was declared the MVP.

He was also voted the 1979 NCAA Tournament's "Most Outstanding Player" for those of you scoring at home.

[LeBird]

Having the better team doesn't win you the FMVP. Yes, you and your team have to get there. Once you do get there it's the people that perform that are given the FMVP. FMVP is not a team award. Magic performed and he was declared the MVP.

He was also voted the 1979 NCAA Tournament's "Most Outstanding Player" for those of you scoring at home.

You need a great team to get to the finals to become the finals MVP. A relatively small sample vs a whole season? You can't be serious. This is akin to arguing that Pierce was actually the best player in the year he won his finals MVP.

Magic got the final 4 award because his team won. His team was far better than Larry's. Larry owned the NCAA as a whole. It isn't close. Magic was great, but Larry was a phenom.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

You need a great team to get to the finals to become the finals MVP. A relatively small sample vs a whole season? You can't be serious. This is akin to arguing that Pierce was actually the best player in the year he won his finals MVP.

Magic got the final 4 award because his team won. His team was far better than Larry's. Larry owned the NCAA as a whole. It isn't close. Magic was great, but Larry was a phenom.

Bird played like shit in the final and he admits this. So he owned the NCAA as a whole. Except Magic.

[nycelt84]

1988- Bird. If Jordan didn't have such a strong season Larry would have again been MVP otherwise I agree with the OP.

[LeBird]

Bird played like shit in the final and he admits this. So he owned the NCAA as a whole. Except Magic.

Players have off days and Bird is no different. It's strange since Bird is up there with the most clutch players of all time - in any sport IMO - but that was a game where he wasn't at his best.

Regardless, the comparison is flawed. Bird had to deal with Magic's much superior team and Magic had to deal with a team that almost entirely depended on Bird. Just look at their college basketball numbers: it. is. not. even. close.

I have to reiterate - since I seem to be a bigger Bird fan, especially here - that I think Magic was, well, simply Magical. He is one of the GOAT. But in the beginning of his career Bird was simply just that much better and it showed.

As an aside, I am always amazed why basketball fans put so much credence in certain opinions with such small samples to back it up.

[Psileas]

Players have off days and Bird is no different. It's strange since Bird is up there with the most clutch players of all time - in any sport IMO - but that was a game where he wasn't at his best.

Regardless, the comparison is flawed. Bird had to deal with Magic's much superior team and Magic had to deal with a team that almost entirely depended on Bird. Just look at their college basketball numbers: it. is. not. even. close.

I have to reiterate - since I seem to be a bigger Bird fan, especially here - that I think Magic was, well, simply Magical. He is one of the GOAT. But in the beginning of his career Bird was simply just that much better and it showed.

As an aside, I am always amazed why basketball fans put so much credence in certain opinions with such small samples to back it up.

A team that "almost entirely depended on Bird" would not have as a Finals' MVP (1981) another player but Bird. OK, you may argue that the voting was flawed, but a team that depended on Bird that much would not easily win Finals' games when Bird would only score 8 and 12 points respectively, regardless of the rest of his game, unless maybe he played some Bill Russell level defense (than again, we all know Russell himself had plenty of help).
Also, a team that dependent on Bird would not include multiple other All-Stars (not even multiple All-Stars including Bird, but multiple All-Stars except Bird), including the 1981 ASG MVP, it would not have a guy producing close to 19/10/3 blocks/54.5% FG in just 28.0 mpg (for PER lovers, that's 25.2, compared to Bird's 19.9), it would not use Kevin McHale as a 6th man, it would not have 8 of its players play for 80-82 games, etc.
Enough with this "Celtics were not deep" myth.

[Psileas]

Something more: The OP's comparison is flawed, not only because it doesn't indicate who had the better season (for example, Magic had easily the better 1982 season), but also because it doesn't obviously take into account the 3+ years of difference between Magic and Bird and because it doesn't mention the year by year margin between the 2 players. Therefore, declaring Bird the "winner" because the OP gives him a 7-5 lead isn't accurate to say the least.

[Sarcastic]

So we'll bring up Bird's back, but we won't bring up Magic's knee in 1981? Seems fair.

[TheBigVeto]

So we'll bring up Bird's back, but we won't bring up Magic's knee in 1981? Seems fair.

MAgic made that up, just like he made up his HIV excuse because he knew Jordan was going to slap him silly every year since 1991.

[LeBird]

@Psileas

You've gone on a rant without realizing I am talking about their NCAA sides. As far as Celtics v Lakers go; they were both talent filled teams although Lakers were probably better for most of the time both played.

In Bird's first year there is no debate that he had a much weaker side.

[Odinn]

1980 - Bird
1981 - Bird
1982 - Bird
1983 - Bird
1984 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1986 - Bird
1987 - Tie ***
1988 - Magic or Tie
1989 - Magic
1990 - Magic
1991 - Magic

Remember, the Celtics in 1987 NBA Finals had horrible bench.

[Ne 1]

Kareem was the REAL FMVP that year.

After originally voting 4-3 for Kareem Abdul Jabbar as NBA Finals MVP, one writer was apparently persuaded by CBS to change his vote to Magic Johnson. The vote was 4-3 in Magic's favor, although it was announced on TV that the vote was unanimous. It was not. And actually, Kareem WAS the true MVP of that Finals series.

Magic did lead the Lakers to victory in the closeout game 6, but Kareem was easily more valuable in the other 3 games the Lakers won.



Not to the people that had votes that counted. The REAL FMVP is the guy who has the trophy in his case. Anybody else is a woulda been, coulda been, shoulda been MVP and that dont count for much in the real world.


True. However Kareem was the biggest reason why the Lakers won in 1980. It was kind of an awkward situation with him missing the last game and Magic having a monster closeout game, but he was still more important than Magic overall in the series.

[Champ]

I would give Magic in '85 but the rest is correct and I think most people already know this though, at least the people that know anything about the two.

Bird was the better player in 1985 and it really wasn't close.

Bird slipped a bit in the finals that year with a thumb injury, but was otherwise at the top of his game for the majority of the 1985 season.

I remember that season well, and Bird was the consensus pick as the best player in the league. Much like what we're seeing with Lebron right now, he was at his peak and nobody else was really in the conversation.

1985 stats: PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3P% FT%


Bird: 28.7 10.5 6.6 1.61 1.23 .522 .427 .882
Magic: 18.3 6.2 12.6 1.5 0.3 .561 .189 .843

[Champ]

Players have off days and Bird is no different. It's strange since Bird is up there with the most clutch players of all time - in any sport IMO - but that was a game where he wasn't at his best.

Regardless, the comparison is flawed. Bird had to deal with Magic's much superior team and Magic had to deal with a team that almost entirely depended on Bird. Just look at their college basketball numbers: it. is. not. even. close.

I have to reiterate - since I seem to be a bigger Bird fan, especially here - that I think Magic was, well, simply Magical. He is one of the GOAT. But in the beginning of his career Bird was simply just that much better and it showed.

As an aside, I am always amazed why basketball fans put so much credence in certain opinions with such small samples to back it up.

It was also much easier for the Spartans to surround and bother Bird, which they did during the most of game, than for the Sycamores to do the same to Magic because of Michigan State's depth advantage.

[Champ]

Fixed. FMVP > ROY

I disagree when you're talking about who had the better year.

[Champ]

1988- Bird. If Jordan didn't have such a strong season Larry would have again been MVP otherwise I agree with the OP.

It's really close.

Bird had his best statistical year, offensively speaking, and as you said, came in second in MVP voting.

But in fairness, given Magic's great post-season run, I'm inclined to give him the nod for having the better season.

[Sarcastic]

Magic averaged a rounded up triple double in 1982 and won Finals MVP. I would put that ahead of Bird's 82 season.

[Champ]

Bird played like shit in the final and he admits this. So he owned the NCAA as a whole. Except Magic.


That's only one game, and as I noted, Michigan State had the luxury of paying way more attention to Bird than Indiana State could give to Magic.

Not taking anything away from Magic here, as he had a great game and deserved the accolades that came along with it, but Bird was the more dominant player throughout the rest of the season and tournament. Just watch the DePaul game.

[Champ]

Magic averaged a rounded up triple double in 1982 and won Finals MVP. I would put that ahead of Bird's 82 season.

Again, I agree this is another close season between the two. Those numbers from Magic are hard to argue with. This was a great comeback season for him, too.

Too bad the '81-'82 season couldn't have been a Celtics/Lakers final. Archibald's knee injury in the ECF against Philly crippled Boston's chance to defend its title.

I would've been really interesting to see Magic and Bird meet in the finals this early in their careers; the outcome would've also had a direct impact on this debate.

[kurt_rambis]

1980 - tie
1981 - bird
1982 - magic
1983 - bird
1984 - bird
1985 - bird
1986 - bird
1987-1991 - magic

magic's 1982 season has to be one of the most overlooked ever. he went 18.5/9.5/9.5, led the league in steals with 2.7 and was finals mvp. imagine if he didn't have to share the ball with 3 other guys who averaged close to or over 20ppg a game.....magic was 4th on the lakers that year in shot attempts per game

[StateOfMind12]

Bird was the better player in 1985 and it really wasn't close.

Bird slipped a bit in the finals that year with a thumb injury, but was otherwise at the top of his game for the majority of the 1985 season.

I remember that season well, and Bird was the consensus pick as the best player in the league. Much like what we're seeing with Lebron right now, he was at his peak and nobody else was really in the conversation.
Are we comparing their seasons or how good they were? I give Magic the edge because he played better overall in the post-season specifically in that Finals.

Plus, Bird got a thumb injury but he suffered that injury on his own since he got into a bar fight. It's not like he just happened to have hurt it or something. It was his own fault he got that thumb injury in the first place. It's not an excuse for Bird, if anything that is a black mark for Bird.

I would consider giving Magic in '82 as well.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

That's only one game, and as I noted, Michigan State had the luxury of paying way more attention to Bird than Indiana State could give to Magic.

Not taking anything away from Magic here, as he had a great game and deserved the accolades that came along with it, but Bird was the more dominant player throughout the rest of the season and tournament. Just watch the DePaul game.

Excuses. That was only one game but it just happened to be the most important game of their college careers and a game in which they competed directly with one another. This is a results oriented world we live in and all excuses in the world cant take away these simple facts. Bird competed against Magic in the final, he didn't play well, and he lost. Period.

[LeBird]

Excuses. That was only one game but it just happened to be the most important game of their college careers and a game in which they competed directly with one another. This is a results oriented world we live in and all excuses in the world cant take away these simple facts. Bird competed against Magic in the final, he didn't play well, and he lost. Period.

In sports if you want to say a player is better than another player - in a given year or overall - you need a bigger sample than 1 game. This is merely straw-clutching on your behalf.

[Smoke117]

I would give Magic in '85 but the rest is correct and I think most people already know this though, at least the people that know anything about the two.

You have to be joking. The 1985 season was probably Larry Bird's Greatest season. There is no way you can give Magic 85. Larry Bird was the MVP of the season. Just because the Celtics lost to the Lakers in the finals that doesn't mean Magicwas better that season. He wasn't even the FMVP, Kareem was.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

In sports if you want to say a player is better than another player - in a given year or overall - you need a bigger sample than 1 game. This is merely straw-clutching on your behalf.

How can you be the best player if you don't play well when it matters the most? Also, at what point did I say that this 1 game is what my entire opinion is based on? It's an important benchmark used as an example.

[get these NETS]

it's acknowledged by everybody that Magic and Bird's popularity ushered in the modern nba...ratings, game show on tv live....finals airing LIVE,etc



Nobody since russell in the 1960s has gotten 3 consecutive mvp awards except Bird. Do you think it's a legit accomplishment, or do you think it was the league and reporters working to market the nba to white audience?

not Jordan,KAJ, Magic,Moses,Shaq, Duncan,Dream,...literally nobody else has done it.

I say there's no legit way that anyone can say that Bird enjoyed the most dominant 3 year stretch(relative to other players) in the NBA....post 1970..and that the 3 consecutive mvps were bullshit, to promote a white superstar to mainstream audiences.

Bird was in fact a Great player....an alltime great..legit superstar and winner..but I'm calling bull on the fact that he got award three straight years ...first and only player since Russell.

[Sarcastic]

The most dominant 3 year run was by Jordan. In fact it was so dominant that it lasted for 7 years.

[StateOfMind12]

You have to be joking. The 1985 season was probably Larry Bird's Greatest season. There is no way you can give Magic 85. Larry Bird was the MVP of the season. Just because the Celtics lost to the Lakers in the finals that doesn't mean Magicwas better that season. He wasn't even the FMVP, Kareem was.
You could argue that that was when Bird was at his best but that was not his best season.

His best season was either 1986 or 1984, I would go with 1986.

Bird was the MVP in that 1985 season but he didn't particularly play well in the post-season mainly because of his hand injury. That hand injury was his own problem considering how he only injured it because he got in a bar fight. It's not like he just hurt it in a game or he just hurt it on accident, he put himself in a situation where he hurt his own hand.

Kareem was the Finals MVP in 1985 but Magic was the best player in LA. Plus, Magic had a great Finals series in '85 too, maybe not better than Kareem but still great.

18.4/14.0/6.8/2.2 with 49.4% shooting.

[Round Mound]

1980 - Bird
1981 - Bird
1982 - Bird
1983 - Bird
1984 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1986 - Bird
1987 - Magic
1988 - Magic
1989 - Magic
1990 - Magic
1991 - Magic

This

[gengiskhan]

1980 - Bird
1981 - Bird
1982 - Bird
1983 - Bird
1984 - Bird
1985 - Bird
1986 - Bird
1987 - Magic
1988 - Magic
1989 - Magic
1990 - Magic
1991 - Magic

This

&

Give Bird Kareem & take away The Chief. I say Bird will have run table on Magic every year. Bird will have like 8-9 yrs & magic will have 2 yrs over him.

[get these NETS]

it's acknowledged by everybody that Magic and Bird's popularity ushered in the modern nba...ratings, game show on tv live....finals airing LIVE,etc



Nobody since russell in the 1960s has gotten 3 consecutive mvp awards except Bird. Do you think it's a legit accomplishment, or do you think it was the league and reporters working to market the nba to white audience?

not Jordan,KAJ, Magic,Moses,Shaq, Duncan,Dream,...literally nobody else has done it.

I say there's no legit way that anyone can say that Bird enjoyed the most dominant 3 year stretch(relative to other players) in the NBA....post 1970..and that the 3 consecutive mvps were bullshit, to promote a white superstar to mainstream audiences.

Bird was in fact a Great player....an alltime great..legit superstar and winner..but I'm calling bull on the fact that he got award three straight years ...first and only player since Russell.


other times I've posted this...people have avoided answering the question..so this will be last time I bring this up..

clearly makes some people uncomfortable to mention this,but hey...c'est la vie.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Think about who votes for the regular season MVP award. If you don't know let me help you. Since the 1980

[get these NETS]

the 3 consec. mvps were bull...

when they talk about magic and bird "rescuing the league" , it was based on both of those guys winning games....winning rings...playing at a high level..and about them both being highly marketable players.

Bird and Magic doc. goes into detail about how the rise of the Celtics and white star players helped the league expand.
Nobody with a straight face can honestly say that Bird dominated the league over a 3 year stretch more than any other player...but he was nba dream come true....had backstory...played for storied franchise in huge sports city AND....lived up to the hype...and was white.

I like to think that alltime great players are in contention for mvp (1-5 finish in voting) for the bulk of their careers..so I mean Bird was obviously in contention those 3 years..legitimately, but him getting those 3 straight was bullshit.....especially in light of dominant all time great players before him and after him who haven't gotten same shine.

Don't expect any serious rebuttal on this topic because there is none....

People identify with Bird because he was a legitimately great white superstar....so logic and reasoning goes out of the window when his name comes up.

[fpliii]

1979-80: tie (edge to Magic)
1980-81: Bird
1981-82: Magic
1982-83: tie (edge to Bird)
1983-84: Bird
1984-85: Bird
1985-86: Bird
1986-87: Magic
1987-88: Bird
1988-89: Magic
1989-90: Magic
1990-91: Magic

total: 5-5-2 (6-6 if you want to eliminate ties)

it's pretty close :confusedshrug: Magic is the better player IMO

[LeBird]

Rubbish. The documentary did nothing of the sort. It just said that some people tried to play the white angle and Bird was having none of it. It was more than just their skin colour that drew comparisons.

You can't get a serious rebuttal because most people think he deserved the 3, and you think he didn't. Obviously, there are contenders most years and it can go either way sometimes. It can be subjective. But your initial point that Bird had to have the 3 consecutive best years of any player ever to win the 3 MVPs in a row is fallacious. He just had to be the best during those 3 years. A runner up in one year may be better than a winner in another year. Thems the breaks.

[Champ]

the 3 consec. mvps were bull...

when they talk about magic and bird "rescuing the league" , it was based on both of those guys winning games....winning rings...playing at a high level..and about them both being highly marketable players.

Bird and Magic doc. goes into detail about how the rise of the Celtics and white star players helped the league expand.
Nobody with a straight face can honestly say that Bird dominated the league over a 3 year stretch more than any other player...but he was nba dream come true....had backstory...played for storied franchise in huge sports city AND....lived up to the hype...and was white.

I like to think that alltime great players are in contention for mvp (1-5 finish in voting) for the bulk of their careers..so I mean Bird was obviously in contention those 3 years..legitimately, but him getting those 3 straight was bullshit.....especially in light of dominant all time great players before him and after him who haven't gotten same shine.

Don't expect any serious rebuttal on this topic because there is none....

People identify with Bird because he was a legitimately great white superstar....so logic and reasoning goes out of the window when his name comes up.

Of course there's a rebuttal; I had one for you on the last thread and you've already forgotten about it.

To refresh your memory, it's not about race -- he was the best player in the league during each of those three years.

But by all means, please go ahead and enlighten the rest of us on who you think deserved the award more in '84, '85, and '86.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Rubbish. The documentary did nothing of the sort. It just said that some people tried to play the white angle and Bird was having none of it. It was more than just their skin colour that drew comparisons.



Just because Bird didn't care about in and feed into it doesn't mean that him being a white superstar wasn't a huge factor in revitalizing the league. Of course it's not the only thing that drew comparisons between Bird and Magic but I feel the documentary is pretty clear that race was a big issue.

[Sarcastic]

Race is ALWAYS an issue, especially when it comes to the NBA. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

[LeBird]

Just because Bird didn't care about in and feed into it doesn't mean that him being a white superstar wasn't a huge factor in revitalizing the league. Of course it's not the only thing that drew comparisons between Bird and Magic but I feel the documentary is pretty clear that race was a big issue.

In College the race issue didn't exist (the rivalry barely did) and he still got an incredible amount of attention. He was a phenom and he got the attention his talent merited. This is about as stupid as saying that any black player got their MVP because of their race.

[get these NETS]

In College the race issue didn't exist (the rivalry barely did) and he still got an incredible amount of attention. He was a phenom and he got the attention his talent merited. This is about as stupid as saying that any black player got their MVP because of their race.


highest rated ncaa finals ever was ...guess which year?
still the highest rated..


coincidence?????

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2009-03-08-bird-magic-cover_N.htm


Larry Bird of Indiana State and Earvin "Magic" Johnson of Michigan State embarked on a path through the NCAA tournament that would take them to the championship game of the Final Four, a showdown that remains the highest rated televised college basketball game.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

In College the race issue didn't exist (the rivalry barely did) and he still got an incredible amount of attention. He was a phenom and he got the attention his talent merited. This is about as stupid as saying that any black player got their MVP because of their race.

At no time did I say the only reason Bird gets attention or wins awards is because he's white but I think you'd be a fool to ignore race and it's impact.

[get these NETS]

HIGHEST selling Sports illustrated cover EVER????


happens to be a special mid week edition they put out....when Mark McGwire beat the (then) single season home run record of Maris


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/1998/62/coverfront.jpg


remember....the regular issue had come out already...but the midweek special edition sold more than any edition they had ever put out...

coincidence?

sammy and mark "brought back" baseball......... and we both know that had sosa broken the record that there is no way that the American public reaction would have been the same

one Sosa is not American
two..he's Black

[LeBird]

At no time did I say the only reason Bird gets attention or wins awards is because he's white but I think you'd be a fool to ignore race and it's impact.

Race gives the rivalry more exposure because they contrasted in so many ways: black, white; recluse, partygoer; Celtics, Lakers; College adversaries; two great players. But to suggest that Larry was pushed to the front as a conspiracy and didn't deserve his MVPs is bullcrap.

[1987_Lakers]

Are people here suggesting that Bird won those 3 MVPs because he was white? I would love to hear who people would have voted over Bird in the MVP race in '84, '85, & '86 because Bird was clearly the best player in the league at that time.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

In 1941 Joe Dimaggio won the regular season AL MVP award largely on the strength of his 56 game hitting streak. A legend for the ages and a season for the ages. Also in the 1941 season Ted Williams hit .406 and won the AL Triple Crown.

So because Dimaggio won the MVP then we can say with certainty that Dimaggio > Williams in 1941, right?

:biggums:

[get these NETS]

Of course there's a rebuttal; I had one for you on the last thread and you've already forgotten about it.

To refresh your memory, it's not about race -- he was the best player in the league during each of those three years.

But by all means, please go ahead and enlighten the rest of us on who you think deserved the award more in '84, '85, and '86.

I think I did reply to you that in ANY given year...there are 2-3 players who could legitimately considered the MVP of the league..
if things are close..generally other criteria is used..such as best player on team with best record is going to win the award

Barkley could have gotten mvp one year that Magic got it...had phenomenal year but off court stuff and being outspoken kept CB from getting it..and Sixers record was bad

Kidd could have gotten it one year, but domestic issue doomed him and Duncan got it.

I think in any one of those years that there were 2 other players who had equal or close to equally phenomenal years....or who were the best players on teams with better records.

if things are close...the white superstar who plays for the big sports city gets the knod.....
3 straight years....which neither KAJ..nor Jordan ever did...

[get these NETS]

In 1941 Joe Dimaggio won the regular season AL MVP award largely on the strength of his 56 game hitting streak. A legend for the ages and a season for the ages. Also in the 1941 season Ted Williams hit .406 and won the AL Triple Crown.

So because Dimaggio won the MVP then we can say with certainty that Dimaggio > Williams in 1941, right?

:biggums:


speaking of Ted Williams..I'm not a baseball guy nor am I from boston but I read this story when I was a very young kid and never really respected sports reporters

Forget the details but ....Ted didn't get along with a reporter...and after a stellar,even for him..year...he either missed out on unanimous mvp or didn't get some award because the reporter left him off the ballot or didn't vot eofr him in the top 3 or something

really petty shit....even though Williams' numbers...and in baseball numbers do all of the talking....williams' number justified him being mvp?

maybe someone can clarify the real story but petty ass, childish reporter tried to screw Williams.

[LeBird]

if things are close...the white superstar who plays for the big sports city gets the knod.....
3 straight years....which neither KAJ..nor Jordan ever did...

What's your point? Some people consider Bird better than both those players, so why wouldn't he deserve an accolade that they didn't get? Then again, you could consider them better but say that they weren't consistently - 3 years in a row, at least - the best in the NBA.

Your argument is just shambolic and embarrassing. Especially since you've brought up Mark McGwire into this as well. The thing to take away is that the MVP award is not the be-all and end-all.

[nycelt84]

In 1941 Joe Dimaggio won the regular season AL MVP award largely on the strength of his 56 game hitting streak. A legend for the ages and a season for the ages. Also in the 1941 season Ted Williams hit .406 and won the AL Triple Crown.

So because Dimaggio won the MVP then we can say with certainty that Dimaggio > Williams in 1941, right?

:biggums:

What's the comparison that you're making? Joe DiMaggio was either #1 or #2 in the game playing for the best team in the world that was a clear juggernaut at the time. Larry Bird was being already called the GOAT during his 3 year MVP run winning 2 titles and dominating the game. Are you comparing Magic to Ted Williams or something?

[Kobe 4 The Win]

speaking of Ted Williams..I'm not a baseball guy nor am I from boston but I read this story when I was a very young kid and never really respected sports reporters

Forget the details but ....Ted didn't get along with a reporter...and after a stellar,even for him..year...he either missed out on unanimous mvp or didn't get some award because the reporter left him off the ballot or didn't vot eofr him in the top 3 or something

really petty shit....even though Williams' numbers...and in baseball numbers do all of the talking....williams' number justified him being mvp?

maybe someone can clarify the real story but petty ass, childish reporter tried to screw Williams.

Thes douchebags play favorites and screw over players they don't like or get along with all the time. They usually favor the guys that kiss their asses. I f**king hate sportswriters. some of the lowest scum of society in my opinion.

Just to clarify Larry Bird did not kiss the ass of sportswriters. Quite the opposite. He ignored them and treated them with distain. Another reason why I love Larry Bird.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

What's the comparison that you're making? Joe DiMaggio was either #1 or #2 in the game playing for the best team in the world that was a clear juggernaut at the time. Larry Bird was being already called the GOAT during his 3 year MVP run winning 2 titles and dominating the game. Are you comparing Magic to Ted Williams or something?

What I'm pointing out is that people overrate the signifigance of regular season MVP awards. In any given year there could be 2, 3 or more guys that are worthy of winning the damn thing. Just because one guy wins it doesn't mean he is hands down the better player than the guys who didn't. It's an arbitrary award decided by petty douchbags.

Bird won 3 in a row from 84 to 86. Great.

Magic won 3 out of 4 from 87 to 90. So what?

[Champ]

I think I did reply to you that in ANY given year...there are 2-3 players who could legitimately considered the MVP of the league..
if things are close..generally other criteria is used..such as best player on team with best record is going to win the award

Barkley could have gotten mvp one year that Magic got it...had phenomenal year but off court stuff and being outspoken kept CB from getting it..and Sixers record was bad

Kidd could have gotten it one year, but domestic issue doomed him and Duncan got it.

I think in any one of those years that there were 2 other players who had equal or close to equally phenomenal years....or who were the best players on teams with better records.

if things are close...the white superstar who plays for the big sports city gets the knod.....
3 straight years....which neither KAJ..nor Jordan ever did...

Trying to stay on topic here.

Yes. Sadly, race is always a factor.

However, it had far, far less to do with Bird winning three straight MVPs than the fact that he was simply the best player in the league during those three years.

Were you watching the NBA then? I would venture that most anyone who was at that time and paying attention would agree that Bird was the best player in the game.

You had said that during that period, the award could've gone to perhaps 2 or 3 other guys who also had great years, and I'm still waiting to hear who those guys might be.

King in '84? He came in second and it wasn't close.

Magic in '85? Bird had 73 first place votes and Magic had one.

And who, pray tell, would it have been in '86? Again, Bird had 73 votes, and Wilkins got 5.

Bird's accomplishments had permeated American sports so deeply that year that he was voted the AP athlete of the year -- unprecedented at the time for an NBA athlete and the only other player ever to do it since is Jordan.

[MiamiThrice]

Bird was superior to Magic every single year until he had that gruesome back injury. Magic just had better team accolades in certain years because....welll he had the better team. Kareem has a better case for being the GOAT than Magic does. I mean LOL. Magic forced his way to LA because he specifically wanted to play with Kareem, while Bird inherited a 29 win Celtics team and built them as a dynasty.

The 80s Lakers had more success than the 80s Celtics, but to say Magic was a better player is laughable for anyone that watched them both. During the 80s people were talking about Bird as the GOAT. Magic didn't get overrated until after Bird got hurt.

[StateOfMind12]

During the 80s people were talking about Bird as the GOAT.
They said the same about Magic as well and they said that even in the 90s.

Plus, I read a post about it earlier saying that the main reason why Bird may have gotten more GOAT recognition because most news and broadcasts were from the East coast which is to Bird's advantage. It doesn't mean he is better, it just means Bird was in a better situation to get more recognition.


Magic didn't get overrated until after Bird got hurt.
Magic didn't get overrated, Magic just got better and was utilized more for the Lakers. Magic's prime was from like '87-'90 whereas Bird's prime was '84-'86. Magic always did whatever it took to win. Earlier in his career, he set up his teammates a lot because he played on a great team and he won. Later in his career, he started having more responsibility with the scoring load because his teammates weren't that great anymore and they still won.

It's not Magic's fault that he happens to be very good at the game of basketball.

[Champ]

Plus, I read a post about it earlier saying that the main reason why Bird may have gotten more GOAT recognition because most news and broadcasts were from the East coast which is to Bird's advantage. It doesn't mean he is better, it just means Bird was in a better situation to get more recognition.



Not buying it. They both got plenty of press.

Magic was in a bigger media market, and sought public attention far more than Bird did.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

This has become tiresome. Bird had a slightly better peak. Magic won more championships and had better longevity.

Bird = Magic

/Thread

[get these NETS]

What's your point? Some people consider Bird better than both those players, so why wouldn't he deserve an accolade that they didn't get? Then again, you could consider them better but say that they weren't consistently - 3 years in a row, at least - the best in the NBA.

Your argument is just shambolic and embarrassing. Especially since you've brought up Mark McGwire into this as well. The thing to take away is that the MVP award is not the be-all and end-all.

I've never heard of sports fan who believes that Bird was a better player or had a better career than either KAJ or Jordan. I note that you're not even saying that..

highest rated ncaa finals ever...think highest rated college basketball game EVER...as in EVER..

and the Sycamores weren't shit before Bird..haven't been shit since..

why do you think that game drew such high ratings?

[get these NETS]

Not buying it. They both got plenty of press.

Magic was in a bigger media market, and sought public attention far more than Bird did.

Bird played for a storied franchise..in fact THE storied franchise of the NBA at the time....in a MAJOR sports town...and he lived up to the incredible hype immediately....reflected in addition team wins from previous year

he resurrected the Celtics...was a legitimately great clutch player...white guy dominating a sport where majority of the players were Black..and he played in one of the top 3 sports cities in America



central casting couldn't have created a better sports icon for the NBA...

[eliteballer]

Magic completely outplayed Peak Bird in the Finals despite being 3 years younger.

More versatile due to speed and ballhandling ability. More efficient scorer. Led the league in steals. It's Magic.

[get these NETS]

Trying to stay on topic here.

Yes. Sadly, race is always a factor.

However, it had far, far less to do with Bird winning three straight MVPs than the fact that he was simply the best player in the league during those three years.

Were you watching the NBA then? I would venture that most anyone who was at that time and paying attention would agree that Bird was the best player in the game.

You had said that during that period, the award could've gone to perhaps 2 or 3 other guys who also had great years, and I'm still waiting to hear who those guys might be.

King in '84? He came in second and it wasn't close.

Magic in '85? Bird had 73 first place votes and Magic had one.

And who, pray tell, would it have been in '86? Again, Bird had 73 votes, and Wilkins got 5.

Bird's accomplishments had permeated American sports so deeply that year that he was voted the AP athlete of the year -- unprecedented at the time for an NBA athlete and the only other player ever to do it since is Jordan.


Trying to stay on topic here.

Yes. Sadly, race is always a factor.

However, it had far, far less to do with Bird winning three straight MVPs than the fact that he was simply the best player in the league during those three years.

Were you watching the NBA then? I would venture that most anyone who was at that time and paying attention would agree that Bird was the best player in the game.

You had said that during that period, the award could've gone to perhaps 2 or 3 other guys who also had great years, and I'm still waiting to hear who those guys might be.

King in '84? He came in second and it wasn't close.

Magic in '85? Bird had 73 first place votes and Magic had one.

And who, pray tell, would it have been in '86? Again, Bird had 73 votes, and Wilkins got 5.

Bird's accomplishments had permeated American sports so deeply that year that he was voted the AP athlete of the year -- unprecedented at the time for an NBA athlete and the only other player ever to do it since is Jordan.


ok..let's go by the same criteria I've been using all along

the amount of votes given to other players doesn't mean anything to as I've already established that I think reporters were promoting Bird

in 84 Magic went for 17.6 13.1 7.3 lakers went 54-28
...Magic in 85 for 18.3 points 12.6 assists 6.3 rebounds for 62-20 lakers team

86 magic went 18 12.3 5. 9 and lakers went 62-20

here is magic's statline for the 3 years he did win the mvp

1987 23.9 12.2 6.3 65-17

1988 22.5 12.8 7.9 62-20
1990 22.3 11.5 6.6 63-19 team record

[Champ]

Magic completely outplayed Peak Bird in the Finals despite being 3 years younger.

More versatile due to speed and ballhandling ability. More efficient scorer. Led the league in steals. It's Magic.

Bird was every bit a versatile and multifaceted as Magic.

[Champ]

ok..let's go by the same criteria I've been using all along

the amount of votes given to other players doesn't mean anything to as I've already established that I think reporters were promoting Bird

in 84 Magic went for 17.6 13.1 7.3 lakers went 54-28
...Magic in 85 for 18.3 points 12.6 assists 6.3 rebounds for 62-20 lakers team

86 magic went 18 12.3 5. 9 and lakers went 62-20

here is magic's statline for the 3 years he did win the mvp

1987 23.9 12.2 6.3 65-17

1988 22.5 12.8 7.9 62-20
1990 22.3 11.5 6.6 63-19 team record

If reporters were promoting Bird to such a degree, and he was the beneficiary of preferential voting as you say, then why did he suddenly fall out of favor with those same voters during the '87 and '88 seasons, when he was still one of the best players in the game? Did American sportswriters secretly conspire and agree that 3 MVPs were enough?

Of course not. The reason was the same as when Bird had one his awards -- other players, namely Magic and Jordan, had better seasons.

While we're at it, why didn't they give Bird the MVP award in '81 over Dr. J? Given how close it was, and how both players had very comparable seasons, you'd think an agenda-driven, racially-motivated votership would've given the award to Bird easily.

[eliteballer]

Bird was every bit a versatile and multifaceted as Magic.


No, he wasn't. He didnt have the ballhandling or slashing ability Magic did.

[MiamiThrice]

They said the same about Magic as well and they said that even in the 90s.

Plus, I read a post about it earlier saying that the main reason why Bird may have gotten more GOAT recognition because most news and broadcasts were from the East coast which is to Bird's advantage. It doesn't mean he is better, it just means Bird was in a better situation to get more recognition.


Magic didn't get overrated, Magic just got better and was utilized more for the Lakers. Magic's prime was from like '87-'90 whereas Bird's prime was '84-'86. Magic always did whatever it took to win. Earlier in his career, he set up his teammates a lot because he played on a great team and he won. Later in his career, he started having more responsibility with the scoring load because his teammates weren't that great anymore and they still won.

It's not Magic's fault that he happens to be very good at the game of basketball.

I'd like to see a video/article/quote/anything of someone with any kind of credibility whatsoever saying Magic was the GOAT during the 80s. Sounds like a bullshit statement with nothing to back it up. Prove me wrong.

Yeah Bird got more recognition than the guy who was a media whore, drafted first by the lakers, and won an NCAA title and NBA Title in back to back years. Cool story bro.

Magic won in the late 80s because the Celtics reign ended due to them setting up their reliance in a Len Bias drafted 2nd overall in 86, which was great as the 86 Celtics are arguably the best team of all-time and ON TOP OF THAT adding arguably the greatest prospect. Magics team was still better. His competition just wasn't as good due to Bird breaking down and not having the help Magic did. The Sixers were also done too at the time. The only real great team was the Pistons and they didn't have any top tier hall of famers like other great teams. (Bird-Jordan-Malone tier)

Magic didn't get any better in those later years. He just scored more, and he had to be a bigger scoring option. This came at a price as his efficiency dropped and he never was above 50% after 87 which you said his prime was.

[StateOfMind12]

I'd like to see a video/article/quote/anything of someone with any kind of credibility whatsoever saying Magic was the GOAT during the 80s. Sounds like a bullshit statement with nothing to back it up. Prove me wrong.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7623446&postcount=114


Los Angeles bounded into championship orbit on a booster rocket provided by the Utah Jazz. For signing Gail Goodrich as a free agent three years earlier, Utah surrendered a first-round draft choice the Lakers used to select the greatest player in the history of hoops: Magic Johnson.


Billy Cunningham -If someone said Magic is the greatest of all time, I couldn’t disagree.



Cotton Fitzsimmons - Magic might be the greatest player I’ve ever seen, and at 6 feet 9, he’s definitely the best point guard I’ve seen.


He is, arguably, the best player of all time. Unquestionably, he is the most versatile.


The greatest basketball player in the history of the game is playing in this NBA championship — and it isn’t Michael Jordan.

Do you believe in Magic?


Bob Ryan - he’s the greatest basketball player I’ve ever seen


There is more in that post that I linked for you. He posted all the people that said Magic was the greatest ever or arguably. Even Bob Ryan, who is from Boston said that Magic is the greatest he's ever seen and better than Bird.


Magic didn't get any better in those later years. He just scored more, and he had to be a bigger scoring option. This came at a price as his efficiency dropped and he never was above 50% after 87 which you said his prime was.

1987 - 23.9 ppg with 52.2% FG
1988 - 19.6 ppg with 49.2% FG
1989 - 22.5 ppg with 50.9% FG
1990 - 22.3 ppg with 48% FG

It would appear he did and he was still close to the 50% range even after '87 when he took on more of the scoring load.

Also, he was injured in 1988 for about 10 games and he even came off the bench for two games that season.

His TS% was also the same, if not better during his prime years which goes to show you that he was more aggressive with his scoring and got more trips to the line.

1987 - 60.2% TS
1988 - 58.1% TS
1989 - 62.5% TS
1990 - 62.2% TS

He almost always shot in the low 60% range for TS% every season in his career.

His playoff numbers were always great as well even his efficiency and that lies the difference between Bird and Magic. Magic was a much better post-season performer than Bird was.



Magic won in the late 80s because the Celtics reign ended due to them setting up their reliance in a Len Bias drafted 2nd overall in 86, which was great as the 86 Celtics are arguably the best team of all-time and ON TOP OF THAT adding arguably the greatest prospect.
The biggest reason is actually because most Celtics players especially Bird were not very durable.

The Lakers stayed healthy longer which led them to play longer and win more championships specifically Magic Johnson.

[Champ]

No, he wasn't. He didnt have the ballhandling or slashing ability Magic did.

And Magic didn't have the rebounding or shooting ability Bird had.

This could go point/counterpoint ad nauseum because both players are so comparable. Trust me.

[pauk]

Magic might have arguably accomplished more, but i think Larry Bird was a better talent/more skilled individual player...

Hell, if Larry Bird had 1st all-defensive/DPOY type of defense would there even be any doubt who the most complete individual player ever was? He could do literally anything as good as anybody...

[eliteballer]

Magic might have arguably accomplished more, but i think Larry Bird was a better talent/more skilled individual player...

Hell, if Larry Bird had 1st all-defensive/DPOY type of defense would there even be any doubt who the most complete individual player ever was?

I'm willing to bet your foreign a$$ hasn't seen one full game of either of them.

[eliteballer]

And Magic didn't have the rebounding or shooting ability Bird had.

This could go point/counterpoint ad nauseum because both players are so comparable. Trust me.

Magic was just good a rebounder. He was getting 8-10 boards from the PG spot, and shooting ability doesnt affect positional versatility as much as ballhandling does. Magic could play 1-5. Bird couldnt play PG or SG due to his lack of comparable ballhandling ability.

[pauk]

I'm willing to bet your foreign a$$ hasn't seen one full game of either of them.

I have over 200 80s Lakers and Celtics games on dvd/vhs/divx.. excluding those i dont have which i have seen thanks to youtube and various sites... so if you have not seen more than that then its to bad you didnt really put your money on my "foreign a$$" because you would have lost, big time...

Larry Bird was a better individual talent/skill than Magic... ask Magic and travel back in time and witness majority of fans/players/coaches etc. consider Larry Bird being better... Magic was not any noticeably better until 1988-1991... all due to a screwed back Larry had (which he played thru)...

[MiamiThrice]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7623446&postcount=114

So your source is some poster on this website? Wrong, I want the actual newspaper articles/quotes or videos saying such. I want credible sources, not probable bullshit. I googled the first few quotes and the only result I got was insidehoops pages

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rto2_oYVs0I

See 2:40 of this video, this is in 1985 and the announcer mentions how Naismith basketball hall of famers Red Auerbach(Mr 9 rings), Bob Cousy(best point guard other than Magic), and KC Jones all say that Bird is the best they've ever seen. Again this is in 1985. And this is indefinetly, not arguably as most of your probable BS Magic quotes are.



1987 - 23.9 ppg with 52.2% FG
1988 - 19.6 ppg with 49.2% FG
1989 - 22.5 ppg with 50.9% FG
1990 - 22.3 ppg with 48% FG

It would appear he did and he was still close to the 50% range even after '87 when he took on more of the scoring load.

Also, he was injured in 1988 for about 10 games and he even came off the bench for two games that season.

His TS% was also the same, if not better during his prime years which goes to show you that he was more aggressive with his scoring and got more trips to the line.

1987 - 60.2% TS
1988 - 58.1% TS
1989 - 62.5% TS
1990 - 62.2% TS

He almost always shot in the low 60% range for TS% every season in his career.

How does this disprove that his efficiency was worse at the end of his career when he took on a bigger load? That was my claim. Compare them for yourself if you don't believe me.


His playoff numbers were always great as well even his efficiency and that lies the difference between Bird and Magic. Magic was a much better post-season performer than Bird was.

Playoff numbers
Bird: 24 PPG 10 RPG 7 APG 47% shooting 89% FT shooting
Magic: 19 PPG 7 RPG 12 APG 50% shooting 83% FT shooting

Yeah bro Magic was definetly a "much better post-season performer" LOL. Shit Ill argue that Bird was better. Better go to scorer, more points, superior rebounding, only averages less assists because he doesn't hog the ball.




The biggest reason is actually because most Celtics players especially Bird were not very durable.

The Lakers stayed healthy longer which led them to play longer and win more championships specifically Magic Johnson.

Funny since Magic Johnson had to retire from basketball prematurely for contracting the HIV virus via a homosexual affair he had in the later part of his career. At least Birds premature retirement was because he gave it his all on the court and his body paid for it.

[eliteballer]

to retire from basketball prematurely for contracting the HIV virus via a homosexual affair he had in the later part of his caree

Yeah, you DONT have an agenda:roll:

[pauk]

Magic Johnson was a better:

Ballhandler
Passer

Larry Bird was a better:

Defender (He was a 3 time all-defensive team defender)
Scorer & Scoring Arsenal
Shooter
Rebounder

and when talking about passing skills themselves, Larry was actually not so bad at it himself....

[eliteballer]

Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).

[StateOfMind12]

How does this disprove that his efficiency was worse at the end of his career when he took on a bigger load? That was my claim. Compare them for yourself if you don't believe me.

'80-'86 - 17.8 ppg with 54.2% FG, 60.8% TS, 54.6% eFG
'87-'90 - 22.1 ppg with 50.2% FG, 60.8% TS, and 52.2% eFG

Lower FG% but same TS% despite much more points in '87-'90

This is just regular season stats as well.

Before you discredit TS%, it just goes to show you that Magic was more aggressive at scoring and taking it to the hoop in '87-'90 and that is why his TS% remained the same despite a lower FG%. He was also an improved FT shooter from '87-'90.


Playoff numbers
Bird: 24 PPG 10 RPG 7 APG 47% shooting 89% FT shooting
Magic: 19 PPG 7 RPG 12 APG 50% shooting 83% FT shooting
Career it looks like the same, maybe an edge to Bird but if you point out specific and important series like Finals, Conference Finals, etc. you would see that Bird had far more poor playoff series than Magic did.

Bird was up and down in the playoffs which is why his averages are like that. Magic was consistently great in the playoffs.

I can only think of like 1-2 poor playoff series by Magic, I can think of a decent amount for Bird.


Funny since Magic Johnson had to retire from basketball prematurely for contracting the HIV virus via a homosexual affair he had in the later part of his career. At least Birds premature retirement was because he gave it his all on the court and his body paid for it.
:oldlol: It doesn't matter, Magic was still going strong and dominant from '87-'90 whereas Bird wasn't anymore. Bird was actually arguably the MVP in '88 and some argue that he should have been the MVP over Jordan but Bird played pretty poor in that post-season specifically the ECF against the Pistons.

[Champ]

Magic was just good a rebounder. He was getting 8-10 boards from the PG spot, and shooting ability doesnt affect positional versatility as much as ballhandling does. Magic could play 1-5. Bird couldnt play PG or SG due to his lack of comparable ballhandling ability.

Magic was not just as good a rebounder. You're grasping at straws with this one.

Please explain how shooting ability doesn't affect "positional versatility" as much as ball handling. Give me a shooter that can hit from all areas of the court, inside and out, with or without his back to the basket, and if necessary, with both hands and you can have your ball handler.

Lastly, you underrate Bird's handles. He practically created the point forward position, had perhaps the greatest off-hand in NBA history, and was a very secure dribbler who didn't need flash to be effective.

[pauk]

Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender.

How come? Both were 6'9".... and both attacked the boards... You should really see some of the footage of Magic and focus on how he attacks the boards, he would run in on the defensive rebounds as fast as possible (allowed him to start the offensive break even faster and he is supposed to have the ball anyways) and on offense he would especially those first 3-4 years in the NBA attack the offensive boards all the time instead of running back to play defense.. both attacked the boards, position is no excuse here...

Also, Magic didnt even touch the PG position until around 1983, during 1980-83 Norm Nixon was the starting PG, Magic started Forward (played a la point-forward)... his season rebound average career high came during that time actually at 9.6 RPG... During those years of not starting PG he averaged between 7.7 - 9.6 rpg...

Larry Bird averaged 10-11 rpg from the get go... his career average is 10.0 rpg...

A more productive rebounder is a more productive rebounder....

[1987_Lakers]

Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).

Bird was indeed a better rebounder. You can't use Magic playing PG and Bird SF as an excuse to why Bird's rebounding numbers are better. Like I said in the other thread, Bird played with rebounders like Parish, McHale, & Walton, Magic didn't play with any very good rebounders (Kareem, Rambis, Worthy was the frontcourt). You always saw Bird inside the post fighting players to death for rebounds, Magic wasn't as willing to battle others inside for rebounds.

Bird nearly out-rebounded Moses Malone (greatest rebounding center ever arguably) in the '81 Finals, you think Magic would ever come close to out rebounding a peak Moses Malone? In the 1984 NBA Finals, Larry Bird nearly out-rebounded Magic & Kareem by himself. Bird was just a more physical player who would sacrifice his body for a rebound.

I don't know where you are getting that Magic was a better one on one defender than Bird, both were below average in that department, I would call individual defense a wash, both were very good help/team defenders, but I might give Bird a slight edge in that department and Bird was clearly a better low post defender than Magic.

[nycelt84]

Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).

Leading the league in steals doesn't make someone a good defender. AI used to be among the league leaders in steals and was never a good defender. More to the point Bird made multiple All NBA defense teams and Magic never made none. Magic couldn't stay in front of many point guards such as KJ and Isiah and often never guarded points. Magic was an average defender at best and sometimes quite poor.

[Champ]

Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).

Magic was not a better passer. Bird getting 7 assists a game from the forward position was more impressive than Magic getting 11 from the point guard position.

I can play that game, too.

[jlauber]

I always found Magic's '84 Finals fascinating. He was labeled "Tragic" in that series (yes, he missed a couple of FTs that would have ultimately won the series), but all he could do in that series was average 18.1 ppg, LEAD the Lakers in rebounding, at 7.7 rpg, was miles ahead of everyone in assists at 13.6 apg, and shot, get this... .560 from the field (Bird shot .488 and Kareem shot .481.)

In any case, since no one else has mentioned it, here was another view of Bird's post-season career...


How about this from Colts18:


Quote:
Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.


Bird played in an NBA that shot about .485 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .472. Which is bad enough, BUT, wait...it gets worse. He shot a CAREER .455 in his five FINALS. In fact, he shot UNDER .399 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .499...ELEVEN times (including TWO games of under .299!) His HIGH Finals series was only .488, and his LOW was .419.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in TWO of them, and in fact, lost out to a TEAMMATE in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the SECOND best player on the floor in TWO more ('85 and '87 Finals.)

[eliteballer]

Nope. Bird didnt double Magic in boards.

Magic DID practically double Bird in assists, and you can get assists from ANYWHERE on the court so saying position matters as much is FOLLY considering how much Bird had the ball in his hands..

...and being a PG directing the offense being far from the basket makes it WAY harder to accumulate rebounds

Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed Bird in the Finals. You have NO counter for that.

[MiamiThrice]

'80-'86 - 17.8 ppg with 54.2% FG, 60.8% TS, 54.6% eFG
'87-'90 - 22.1 ppg with 50.2% FG, 60.8% TS, and 52.2% eFG

Lower FG% but same TS% despite much more points in '87-'90

This is just regular season stats as well.

Before you discredit TS%, it just goes to show you that Magic was more aggressive at scoring and taking it to the hoop in '87-'90 and that is why his TS% remained the same despite a lower FG%. He was also an improved FT shooter from '87-'90.


TS? Huh? How about we use Actual statistics recorded by the NBA, not some shit you and your friends use in your fantasy league.


Career it looks like the same, maybe an edge to Bird but if you point out specific and important series like Finals, Conference Finals, etc. you would see that Bird had far more poor playoff series than Magic did.

Bird was up and down in the playoffs which is why his averages are like that. Magic was consistently great in the playoffs.

I can only think of like 1-2 poor playoff series by Magic, I can think of a decent amount for Bird.

In the playoffs everything is just as important. You think these guys wouldn't be embarassed as **** losing in the first round? Every game matters. You are just being selective and picking whichever benefits your argument. Nice try.


:oldlol: It doesn't matter, Magic was still going strong and dominant from '87-'90 whereas Bird wasn't anymore. Bird was actually arguably the MVP in '88 and some argue that he should have been the MVP over Jordan but Bird played pretty poor in that post-season specifically the ECF against the Pistons.

So first you say Bird wasn't dominant anymore, and then you go on to say that he was the MVP? Interesting. Strong contradicting paragraph. Anyone can pick out one series and blame them for the loss. Here I'll play that game. LOL nice 43% shooting by Magic against the Bulls in the 91 finals!!! Choker!!!!! Also I'm not sure if you realize just how bad of a defender Magic was in those later years. You can jerk off to those offensive statistics all you want, but LA had to hide him on defense. I don't think there was one point guard he could actually guard.

[eliteballer]

Nope. Bird didnt double Magic in boards.

Magic DID practically double Bird in assists, and you can get assists from ANYWHERE on the court so saying position matters as much is FOLLY considering how much Bird had the ball in his hands..

...and being a PG directing the offense being far from the basket makes it WAY harder to accumulate rebounds

Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed Bird in the Finals. You have NO counter for that.


Your elementary arguments are no match:pimp:

[MiamiThrice]

Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).

Cool so I guess Jason Kidd is a better rebounder than Pau Gasol since he gets more rebounds relative to his position.

http://darkjournal.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/borat-not-jb.jpg

[1987_Lakers]

...

Chamberlain

Regular Season - 30 PPG
Postseason - 22.5 PPG

His PPG dropped EVERY YEAR in the postseason.

[StateOfMind12]

TS? Huh? How about we use Actual statistics recorded by the NBA, not some shit you and your friends use in your fantasy league.
It is used on basketball reference and ESPN which is very credible. It is just an advanced stat because it is hard to do the calculation off of the top of your head.


So first you say Bird wasn't dominant anymore, and then you go on to say that he was the MVP? Interesting. Strong contradicting paragraph.
He was dominant in the regular season in '88 but he wasn't great in the post-season. He was easily less dominant than what he was from '84-'86 though.

Magic is ahead of Bird because Magic and Bird were close each season when Bird was better from their rookie season to '86 whereas Magic was clearly better and better than Bird by a lot from '87 to '91.


Also I'm not sure if you realize just how bad of a defender Magic was in those later years. You can jerk off to those offensive statistics all you want, but LA had to hide him on defense. I don't think there was one point guard he could actually guard.
Magic and Bird were like the same defensively. Both of them were below average man defenders but good help defenders. Bird was probably a little better but nothing significant.

[1987_Lakers]

Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed Bird in the Finals. You have NO counter for that.

Bird was injured.

[Champ]

Magic was 3 years younger and CLEARLY outplayed Bird in the Finals. You have NO counter for that.

It's not clear what I'm supposed to be countering. Which finals are you referring to?

[1987_Lakers]

It's not clear what I'm supposed to be countering. Which finals are you referring to?

I'm assuming '85 when Bird played the entire postseason with a broken thumb.

[eliteballer]

85 AND 87. His numbers were also clearly better in 84 even if he made a couple of mistakes down the stretch of games.

[Champ]

His numbers were also clearly better in 84 even if he made a couple of mistakes down the stretch of games.

:facepalm

And with that, I say "goodnight".

[1987_Lakers]

85 AND 87. His numbers were also clearly better in 84 even if he made a couple of mistakes down the stretch of games.

Magic was a better player and he did outplay Bird in '87.

Magic also played better in '85, but then again Bird wasn't 100%.

I clearly give the edge to Bird in '84. Much better scorer, more active on the boards, and he came threw in the clutch while Magic didn't.

[Round Mound]

Bird was A WAY BETTER DEFENDER Than Magic Was

Defensive Rating

1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1980-81 NBA 98.6 (10)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (6)
1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (9)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)
Career NBA 101.4 (61)

NBA & ABA Yearly Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating

2012 NBA Josh Smith 93.20 ATL
2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.73 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Jason Kidd 94.63 NJN
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson* 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 95.76 PHI
1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS
1981 NBA Truck Robinson 94.51 PHO
1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS

Defensive Win Shares

1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1)
1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1)
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1)
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1)
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (25)

[eliteballer]

Bird was A WAY BETTER DEFENDER Than Magic Was

Defensive Rating

1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1980-81 NBA 98.6 (10)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (6)
1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (9)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)
Career NBA 101.4 (61)

NBA & ABA Yearly Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating

2012 NBA Josh Smith 93.20 ATL
2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.73 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Jason Kidd 94.63 NJN
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson* 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 95.76 PHI
1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS
1981 NBA Truck Robinson 94.51 PHO
1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS

Defensive Win Shares

1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1)
1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1)
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1)
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1)
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (25

Yet another foreigner who never watched 80's ball:facepalm

[Round Mound]

Yet another foreigner who never watched 80's ball:facepalm

:no:

Bird Was Better Defensively. Fact!

[jlauber]

Chamberlain

Regular Season - 30 PPG
Postseason - 22.5 PPG

His PPG dropped EVERY YEAR in the postseason.

Hmmm...he absolutely SHELLED his OPPOSING centers in the vast majority of his 29 playoff series. He outrebounded them ALL (and by generally by HUGE margins...as well as ELEVATING his rebounding.)

Scoring? Yep. Wilt gets ripped for "only" averaging 34 ppg, on .468 shooting, against Russell in the '62 ECF's (all while taking a cast of clowns to a game seven, two point loss), because it came in his 50 ppg season. But wait...in his ten regular season H2H's against Russell (and a SWARMING Celtic defense which didn't have to concern themselves with the four other boobs that Wilt was shackled with)...Chamberlain could "only" average 39.7 ppg, on .471 shooting. Now, when you factor in that the regular season NBA averaged 118.8 ppg on .426 shooting, and the post-season NBA averaged 112.6 ppg on .411 shooting, ...well, it puts a much better perspective on that "decline." Oh, and incidently, Russell shot .457 against the NBA in the regular season...BUT, against Chamberlain in that seven game series? .399. Yep. .399.

Or how about a Chamberlain in the '64 post-season? In the regular season, Wilt averaged 36.9 ppg on .524 shooting, in an NBA that averaged 111 ppg on .433 shooting. However, in the POST-SEASON, the NBA averaged 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting. How about Chamberlain in that post-season? 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and on .543 shooting.

And how about this example? In the 64-65 season, after Wilt was traded to the Sixers at mid-season, he averaged 30.1 ppg, 22.3 rpg, and shot .528...in a league that averaged 110.6 ppg on .426 shooting.

He then took that 40-40 team, which had gone 34-46 the year before, thru the 48-32 Royals in the first round, and then to a game seven, one point loss against Russell's HOF-laden Celtics, that had gone 62-18, which was their best record in the Russell-era. And, in that series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 from the floor (while holding Russell to 15.6 ppg, 25.3 rpg, and .447 shooting.) Where's the DECLINE?

Of course, Chamberlain had SIX post-seasons in which he averaged more ppg than Bird's BEST post-season, too. He had FOUR of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. Oh, and he had four post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg. And where are Bird's 50 point playoff games? Chamberlain had FOUR, THREE of which were in "must-win" games.

And how about this? In Wilt's first seven post-seasons, covering 67 games (35 of which came against Russell) he AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515. Find me ONE post-season game in which Bird accomplished that feat.

Shooting? In Wilt's SIX Finals, he shot .517, .525, .534, .560, .600, and a seven game series of .625. Bird? In his FIVE Finals, and in league's that shot .485 on average (Wilt's shot about .440 on average BTW), Bird shot .488, .484, .455, .450, and a horrible .419.

Rebounding in the post-season? Chamberlain's WORST post-season, of 20.2 rpg, blows away Bird's BEST post-season of 14.0 rpg.

Defense? Chamberlain was reducing Kareem to just awful FG%'s, and probably blocked more shots in one post-season, than Bird did in his post-season career. Wilt was arguably the second greatest defensive center in NBA HISTORY.

Yep. Wilt sure "declined" didn't he?

[MiamiThrice]

Bird was A WAY BETTER DEFENDER Than Magic Was

Defensive Rating

1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1980-81 NBA 98.6 (10)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (6)
1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (9)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)
Career NBA 101.4 (61)

NBA & ABA Yearly Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating

2012 NBA Josh Smith 93.20 ATL
2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.73 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Jason Kidd 94.63 NJN
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson* 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 95.76 PHI
1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS
1981 NBA Truck Robinson 94.51 PHO
1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS

Defensive Win Shares

1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1)
1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1)
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1)
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1)
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (25)

Great post dude.

Larry Bird was a great defender in comparison to that era. People dont want to give him respect because he wouldn't hound people and he wasn't laterally quick. Guy could read the plays before they happened and this led to turnovers. His feet weren't quick, but he may have had faster hands than anyone in NBA History. Larry Bird = great defensive player. Magic was terrible on that end of the court.

Hopefully StateofMind12 reads that post and realizes that Magic was by far inferior.

[jlauber]

Chamberlain

Regular Season - 30 PPG
Postseason - 22.5 PPG

His PPG dropped EVERY YEAR in the postseason.

Let's compare shall we?


Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, on 8-18 shooting, while Russell had a 25-25 game, and on 11-26 shooting.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds, on 12-28 shooting. Russell had 14 points and 26 points, on 5-11 shooting in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game, on 13-23 shooting. Russell with a 22-21 game, on 8-19 shooting, in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds, on 4-6 shooting, in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.


continued...

[jlauber]

With this resume...


How about this from Colts18:


Quote:
Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.


Bird played in an NBA that shot about .485 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .472. Which is bad enough, BUT, wait...it gets worse. He shot a CAREER .455 in his five FINALS. In fact, he shot UNDER .399 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .499...ELEVEN times (including TWO games of under .299!) His HIGH Finals series was only .488, and his LOW was .419.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in TWO of them, and in fact, lost out to a TEAMMATE in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the SECOND best player on the floor in TWO more ('85 and '87 Finals.)



Continued...

[jlauber]

And this...


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games, while Chamberlain shot 18-33 (.545.)

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[Champ]

With this resume...



Continued...
jlauber:

Though I respect all the data and info you continually come up with, I must say that list of Bird's playoff exploits you posted comes across as cherry-picked, and more than a bit biased in terms of its language and tone. There's simply too much of his playoff success that is ignored or passed over for the sake of argument, while other excerpts strike me as being flat-out wrong.

For starters, I'll point to '81 Finals, where your post stated that Bird played poorly, which simply isn't accurate. Yes, he did shoot poorly, but he also did so many other things during that series to help his team win, while coming through at key moments -- especially down the stretch -- yet there's no mention of this. Why?

You could even argue that he should've been awarded Finals MVP that year.

[jlauber]

jlauber:

Though I respect all the data and info you continually come up with, I must say that list of Bird's playoff exploits you posted comes across as cherry-picked, and more than a bit biased. There's simply too much of his playoff success that is ignored or passed over for the sake of argument, while other excerpts strike me as being flat-out wrong.

For starters, I'll point to '81 Finals, where your post stated that Bird played poorly, which simply isn't accurate. Yes, he did shoot poorly, but he also did so many other things during that series to help his team win, while coming through at key moments -- especially down the stretch -- yet there's no mention of this. Why?

You could even argue that he should've been awarded Finals MVP that year.

Well, it addresses these myths that somehow Bird was more "clutch" than Magic. Bird had HOF-laden teams that lost with HCA SEVEN times. And in some of those series, he played poorly.

Magic was called "Tragic" in a series in which he put up 18.1 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 13.6 apg, and shot .560...based on a couple of plays and missed FTs.

And I understand Bird's '81 Finals, but it galls me that at least some of the "Bird-lovers" on this site, praise Birdfor his hustle and grit in that series, and then bash Chamberlain, who took far more putrid rosters to within an eye-lash of beating Russell's vaunted "Dynasty" on SEVERAL occassions (and did in fact beat him in one) dominating the games ALL OVER THE COURT. Chamberlain was defending entire teams, and being defended by entire teams, and playing 48 mpg, and yet he is labeled a "choker" by the "Simmonites." An unfair DOUBLE STANDARD.

[TheBigVeto]

Great post dude.

Larry Bird was a great defender in comparison to that era. People dont want to give him respect because he is white.


FTFY

[jlauber]

BTW, Bird was a GREAT post-season player. Much like Magic, he made his teammates better. Personally, I would have taken Magic, but I would have done quite well with Larry, too.

[WockaVodka]

Defensive rating is like the worst way to evaluate individual defense.

Carlos Boozer had a better defensive rating than Dwight Howard did last season.

Are any of you seriously going to tell me Boozer is better defensively?

[jlauber]

Including the post-season...

80 Magic
81 Bird
82 Magic
83 Magic
84 Bird
85 Magic
86 Bird
87 Magic
88 Magic
89 Magic
90 Magic
91 Magic

[ShaqAttack3234]

1980- Bird
1981- Bird
1982- Bird
1983- Bird
1984- Bird
1985- Bird
1986- Bird
1987- Magic
1988- Bird
1989- Magic
1990- Magic
1991- Magic

Magic and Bird really became debatable to me in '87, which was probably Magic's best year(though I'm not truly convinced he was better than he was in '90). Magic took his game to the next level that year, while Bird was still in his prime. I'm not convinced Magic actually was a better player than Bird in '87, but with the 65-17 record, a well-deserved MVP, a great finals series, a 24/6/12 season. He seems like the safer choice.

Magic improved a lot throughout his career. When he was young, he was a pretty limited half court player. He'd still be active running give and go plays with Kareem, getting offensive rebounds, finding Wilkes under the basket by threading the needle, and sometimes driving to the basket.

But '80-'83 Magic didn't have the outside shot or post game yet that would take his game to another level. Kareem was really their half court offense.

Magic started showing an outside shot around '84 or '85, and the post game in '87. Magic also didn't become the 1st option until his 8th season.

As much as these 2 are linked, a lot of their primes didn't overlap. Magic's prime was really from '87-'90. And Bird's was from '84-'88.

It is a good comparison comparing those 2 versions because Magic could control the game so much offensively when he became a great half court player. His post game was unstoppable so most teams didn't guard him 1 on 1, but he passed as well as anyone out of the post, so he'd just pick apart double teams. So the best strategy probably was to guard him 1 on 1 and get his. Phoenix did that in '90 when they upset the Lakers. Magic averaged 30, and ended the series with back to back 43 point games, but they lost both and lost in 5. Guarding Magic 1 on 1 most of the time with Dan Majerle seemed to prevent his teammates from going off. Granted, Hornacek exploiting Magic's defense was also a factor.

And the outside shot made a big difference, along with the fact that he started taking the ball to the basket more aggressively when he became the first option in '87.

[1987_Lakers]

1980- Bird
1981- Bird
1982- Bird
1983- Bird
1984- Bird
1985- Bird
1986- Bird
1987- Magic
1988- Bird
1989- Magic
1990- Magic
1991- Magic

Magic and Bird really became debatable to me in '87, which was probably Magic's best year(though I'm not truly convinced he was better than he was in '90). Magic took his game to the next level that year, while Bird was still in his prime. I'm not convinced Magic actually was a better player than Bird in '87, but with the 65-17 record, a well-deserved MVP, a great finals series, a 24/6/12 season. He seems like the safer choice.

Magic improved a lot throughout his career. When he was young, he was a pretty limited half court player. He'd still be active running give and go plays with Kareem, getting offensive rebounds, finding Wilkes under the basket by threading the needle, and sometimes driving to the basket.

But '80-'83 Magic didn't have the outside shot or post game yet that would take his game to another level. Kareem was really their half court offense.

Magic started showing an outside shot around '84 or '85, and the post game in '87. Magic also didn't become the 1st option until his 8th season.

As much as these 2 are linked, a lot of their primes didn't overlap. Magic's prime was really from '87-'90. And Bird's was from '84-'88.

It is a good comparison comparing those 2 versions because Magic could control the game so much offensively when he became a great half court player. His post game was unstoppable so most teams didn't guard him 1 on 1, but he passed as well as anyone out of the post, so he'd just pick apart double teams. So the best strategy probably was to guard him 1 on 1 and get his. Phoenix did that in '90 when they upset the Lakers. Magic averaged 30, and ended the series with back to back 43 point games, but they lost both and lost in 5. Guarding Magic 1 on 1 most of the time with Dan Majerle seemed to prevent his teammates from going off. Granted, Hornacek exploiting Magic's defense was also a factor.

And the outside shot made a big difference, along with the fact that he started taking the ball to the basket more aggressively when he became the first option in '87.

You believe Bird was better than Magic in '88? I will say Bird was the better player during the regular season, but Magic was much more consistent in the postseason.

[eliteballer]

Bird has no argument over Magic in 85. NONE.:coleman:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Bird has no argument over Magic in 85. NONE.:coleman:

:oldlol: More like Magic has no argument. Whether Magic was even the best player on his own team over a 38 year old Kareem is debatable.

Bird was widely considered the best player in the league in the mid 80's. Many were calling him the best of all time, this wasn't said about Magic.

Magic is lucky that Bird was injured in the '85 finals, of course, Kareem was the best player in that series anyway. Bird beat Magic's team...well, Kareem's team actually, in the '84 finals with a team that was considered by everyone to be less talented. And the Celtics had improved by '85, Kevin McHale in particular was approaching his prime.

It wasn't that close until '87.


You believe Bird was better than Magic in '88? I will say Bird was the better player during the regular season, but Magic was much more consistent in the postseason.

Yes, Bird was still arguably the best player in the league, and would probably be my choice for MVP.

Bird's shot was really off in the Detroit series at first due to fatigue(from the 7 game Hawks series) and eventually it got into his head according to Larry himself because you can see him force a few uncharacteristic shots in the series, and he was also just missing shots he usually makes. Despite that, Boston had a chance to win that series(2 games went to OT), and Larry played very well in every other area. His rebounding and passing were phenomenal and his defense was very good, both individual vs Dantley and his team defense.

Larry led a Boston team without a bench to 57 games(would have probably been 59 had he not rested the final 2), He had gotten in much better shape and some were calling it his best season. He led Boston to a 10-3 record without McHale(who missed the first month), and they were 9-2 excluding Bird's 2 limited minute games, and in those 11 games, he averaged 32/11/7 on 51%.

30/9/6 on 53/41/92 shooting for the entire season is incredible. Especially since Bird wasn't a particularly ball-dominant player and played extremely well without the ball.

Magic was in his prime by '88, but it was only his 4th best season, imo, clearly behind '87, '90 and '89.


Larry was not a better rebounder(Magic getting 8-10 from the PG spot is far more impressive than Bird getting 10-11 from forward) nor was he a better defender(Magic led the league in steals and was a better man defender).

Tough to compare their rebounding due to their positions, but look at the frontline Bird was getting 10-11 rpg with. 14 rpg for the entire '81 playoffs.

And in no way was Magic a better 1 on 1 defender. He'd get lit up by good shooters because he roamed a lot, and quicker players who were good off the dribble. In other words, he couldn't guard good scorers.

Bird wasn't a great man defender either, but average and better than Magic.

Bird's help defense was definitely superior though.

[LeBird]

I've never heard of sports fan who believes that Bird was a better player or had a better career than either KAJ or Jordan. I note that you're not even saying that..

Having a better 'career' (however you define that) does not mean you are the better player. Horry might have had a better career Drexler; Shaq may have had a better than Hakeem, but it doesn't determine who is better than the other.


highest rated ncaa finals ever...think highest rated college basketball game EVER...as in EVER..

and the Sycamores weren't shit before Bird..haven't been shit since..

why do you think that game drew such high ratings?

Why did Lebron's games get so much coverage? Because he was black? No, because he was that much better than everyone else it was astounding.

[juju151111]

1980- Bird
1981- Bird
1982- Bird
1983- Bird
1984- Bird
1985- Bird
1986- Bird
1987- Magic
1988- Bird
1989- Magic
1990- Magic
1991- Magic

Magic and Bird really became debatable to me in '87, which was probably Magic's best year(though I'm not truly convinced he was better than he was in '90). Magic took his game to the next level that year, while Bird was still in his prime. I'm not convinced Magic actually was a better player than Bird in '87, but with the 65-17 record, a well-deserved MVP, a great finals series, a 24/6/12 season. He seems like the safer choice.

Magic improved a lot throughout his career. When he was young, he was a pretty limited half court player. He'd still be active running give and go plays with Kareem, getting offensive rebounds, finding Wilkes under the basket by threading the needle, and sometimes driving to the basket.

But '80-'83 Magic didn't have the outside shot or post game yet that would take his game to another level. Kareem was really their half court offense.

Magic started showing an outside shot around '84 or '85, and the post game in '87. Magic also didn't become the 1st option until his 8th season.

As much as these 2 are linked, a lot of their primes didn't overlap. Magic's prime was really from '87-'90. And Bird's was from '84-'88.

It is a good comparison comparing those 2 versions because Magic could control the game so much offensively when he became a great half court player. His post game was unstoppable so most teams didn't guard him 1 on 1, but he passed as well as anyone out of the post, so he'd just pick apart double teams. So the best strategy probably was to guard him 1 on 1 and get his. Phoenix did that in '90 when they upset the Lakers. Magic averaged 30, and ended the series with back to back 43 point games, but they lost both and lost in 5. Guarding Magic 1 on 1 most of the time with Dan Majerle seemed to prevent his teammates from going off. Granted, Hornacek exploiting Magic's defense was also a factor.

And the outside shot made a big difference, along with the fact that he started taking the ball to the basket more aggressively when he became the first option in '87.
The list you made seems like a regular season nd not including everythin. How is Bird better then Magic in 82 and 88?

[eliteballer]

oldlol: More like Magic has no argument. Whether Magic was even the best player on his own team over a 38 year old Kareem is debatable.

Bird was widely considered the best player in the league in the mid 80's. Many were calling him the best of all time, this wasn't said about Magic.

Magic is lucky that Bird was injured in the '85 finals, of course, Kareem was the best player in that series anyway. Bird beat Magic's team...well, Kareem's team actually, in the '84 finals with a team that was considered by everyone to be less talented. And the Celtics had improved by '85, Kevin McHale in particular was approaching his prime.

It wasn't that close until '87.

Everything in 85 is even until you look at the Finals where Magic completely outplayed him. Everyone is banged up by that point, using a thumb injury of all things as if its a knee, ankle, or wrist issue is completely laughble.



Tough to compare their rebounding due to their positions, but look at the frontline Bird was getting 10-11 rpg with. 14 rpg for the entire '81 playoffs.

And in no way was Magic a better 1 on 1 defender. He'd get lit up by good shooters because he roamed a lot, and quicker players who were good off the dribble. In other words, he couldn't guard good scorers.

Bird wasn't a great man defender either, but average and better than Magic.

Bird's help defense was definitely superior though.

Magic could get burned by smaller players, but so would Bird-even worse I might add. Difference is Magic was far better at guarding players at or near his own size.



Magic improved a lot throughout his career. When he was young, he was a pretty limited half court player.

:oldlol: Limited. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYNDWaEmqto

I have to add Magic has a great argument in 82 and 83 as he was FAR SUPERIOR in the playoffs.

[Rolando]

Including the post-season...

80 Magic
81 Bird
82 Magic
83 Magic
84 Bird
85 Magic
86 Bird
87 Magic
88 Magic
89 Magic
90 Magic
91 Magic

Your bias against Bird takes away from your credibility. It makes me question all the you have written about Wilt, which I have found interesting.

[Math2]

That's funny because the years that Magic is given the edge just happen to coincide with the years he was asked to score more and take on more responsability because Kareem was getting super old. Hmmmmmm.

What a coincidence! Bird was having back problems and was a shell of his former self during those years. Hmmmmm.


MAYBE give 1987 to Bird, because he was still going strong for some of the year and he SHOULD have won that finals, but otherwise I completely agree.

[colts19]

Well, it addresses these myths that somehow Bird was more "clutch" than Magic. Bird had HOF-laden teams that lost with HCA SEVEN times. And in some of those series, he played poorly.

Magic was called "Tragic" in a series in which he put up 18.1 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 13.6 apg, and shot .560...based on a couple of plays and missed FTs.

And I understand Bird's '81 Finals, but it galls me that at least some of the "Bird-lovers" on this site, praise Birdfor his hustle and grit in that series, and then bash Chamberlain, who took far more putrid rosters to within an eye-lash of beating Russell's vaunted "Dynasty" on SEVERAL occassions (and did in fact beat him in one) dominating the games ALL OVER THE COURT. Chamberlain was defending entire teams, and being defended by entire teams, and playing 48 mpg, and yet he is labeled a "choker" by the "Simmonites." An unfair DOUBLE STANDARD.
jlauber, I understand your point of view on this. I hope you know from our previous post that I to am a big Wilt fan and believe him to be one of if not the Greatest player ever.

That being said, you don't make wilts light burn any brighter by trying to blow out Birds. Just as a lot of people cherry pick things about Wilt, you do the same thing to Bird. I think Wilt's greatness stands on it's own. I am as big a Bird fan as their is, but even I think if your building a team, it always starts with the Center. People can say they would take Jordan, Bird and Magic all they want. Give me a great center. I would take Wilt myself but I can understand people who would go with Russell or KAJ. I don't understand people who would take a forward, point guard or a shooting guard.

Have a great day.

[Gifted Mind]

These year-by-year threads are getting more and more popular....

Anyway I agree with the OP

[get these NETS]

If reporters were promoting Bird to such a degree, and he was the beneficiary of preferential voting as you say, then why did he suddenly fall out of favor with those same voters during the '87 and '88 seasons, when he was still one of the best players in the game? Did American sportswriters secretly conspire and agree that 3 MVPs were enough?

Of course not. The reason was the same as when Bird had one his awards -- other players, namely Magic and Jordan, had better seasons.

While we're at it, why didn't they give Bird the MVP award in '81 over Dr. J? Given how close it was, and how both players had very comparable seasons, you'd think an agenda-driven, racially-motivated votership would've given the award to Bird easily.

first things first

you asked me who "should" have gotten the award over Bird..I posted Magic Johnson's(by then already a champion, proven player) statline and team record for the years that Bird won the mvp

and I posted his statline from years when he won it himself


It's not a stretch to say that Magic COULD have gotten the award one of the 3 straight years that Bird won.

Do you concede that much?

and I note AGAIN.....that you haven't said that Bird was a better player than KAJ or Jordan, but you are dancing around the fact that he won 3 straight MVP awards and that neither of them did.

[Round Mound]

People are Still Avoiding and Talking as if Bird Wasn`t a Great Defender.

Statistically It Is Shown He Was

Much Better than Magic Defensively

[get these NETS]

People are Still Avoiding and Talking as if Bird Wasn`t a Great Defender.

Statistically It Is Shown He Was

Much Better than Magic Defensively
you also said that stockton was better than isiah...so...

[Round Mound]

you also said that stockton was better than isiah...so...

He Was :confusedshrug: ....Only Things Isiah Was Better than Stockton at Was Driving to the Basket or Slashing 1 on 1 and Rebounding

Stockton Had Better Fundamentals, Better Creator and Passer, Better Floor General, Better Shooter and Better Defender.

[Pointguard]

How come? Both were 6'9".... and both attacked the boards... You should really see some of the footage of Magic and focus on how he attacks the boards, he would run in on the defensive rebounds as fast as possible (allowed him to start the offensive break even faster and he is supposed to have the ball anyways) and on offense he would especially those first 3-4 years in the NBA attack the offensive boards all the time instead of running back to play defense.. both attacked the boards, position is no excuse here...

Also, Magic didnt even touch the PG position until around 1983, during 1980-83 Norm Nixon was the starting PG, Magic started Forward (played a la point-forward)... his season rebound average career high came during that time actually at 9.6 RPG... During those years of not starting PG he averaged between 7.7 - 9.6 rpg...

Larry Bird averaged 10-11 rpg from the get go... his career average is 10.0 rpg...

A more productive rebounder is a more productive rebounder....

Magic was the more productive rebounder. Not all rebounds are created equal. When Magic rebounded the opposing team went in panic mode. Magic was an impact rebounder. He unbalanced the floor and could get points off of the rebound unlike any player ever. I doubt that there is a coach around that would want 10 of Bird's rebounds over 8 of Magics. The whole Laker team would lick their lips when Magic would get the rebound. Their juices got flowing. There is no way you could have seen 87 or 85 finals and could possibly think that there was any semblance of their rebounds being equal. Boston got deflated when Magic rebounded or stole the ball and the inverse happened for the Lakers.

[1987_Lakers]

Magic was the more productive rebounder. Not all rebounds are created equal. When Magic rebounded the opposing team went in panic mode. Magic was an impact rebounder. He unbalanced the floor and could get points off of the rebound unlike any player ever. I doubt that there is a coach around that would want 10 of Bird's rebounds over 8 of Magics. The whole Laker team would lick their lips when Magic would get the rebound. Their juices got flowing. There is no way you could have seen 87 or 85 finals and could possibly think that there was any semblance of their rebounds being equal. Boston got deflated when Magic rebounded or stole the ball and the inverse happened for the Lakers.

I'll take Bird's 10 rpg on great outlet passing over Magic's 7 rpg which may potentially start a fast break. You are forgetting that Bird himself started alot of fastbreaks when he grabbed a rebound with his outlet passing.

[eliteballer]

Magic was the more productive rebounder. Not all rebounds are created equal. When Magic rebounded the opposing team went in panic mode. Magic was an impact rebounder. He unbalanced the floor and could get points off of the rebound unlike any player ever. I doubt that there is a coach around that would want 10 of Bird's rebounds over 8 of Magics. The whole Laker team would lick their lips when Magic would get the rebound. Their juices got flowing. There is no way you could have seen 87 or 85 finals and could possibly think that there was any semblance of their rebounds being equal. Boston got deflated when Magic rebounded or stole the ball and the inverse happened for the Lakers.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Pointguard]

So the best strategy probably was to guard him 1 on 1 and get his. Phoenix did that in '90 when they upset the Lakers. Magic averaged 30, and ended the series with back to back 43 point games, but they lost both and lost in 5. Guarding Magic 1 on 1 most of the time with Dan Majerle seemed to prevent his teammates from going off. Granted, Hornacek exploiting Magic's defense was also a factor.
So let me get this straight, the best way to guard Magic is hold him to 43 ppg while shooting a stellar 55% and this great defense will somehow transfer into Coop, Worthy and Scott missing every shot Magic didn't spoon feed them with? And you wonder why it didn't catch on, huh?

Hornacek wasn't breaking Magic down off of the dribble. Rarely ever did Hornacek get points on the initial defender. He scored like Reggie Miller. Magic was by far the best player in that series. And he was twice as good as any Laker in the series. While Majerle's good defense on Magic was stoping Magic at 43/7/8 we somehow missed how it totally crushed Worthy to 24% shooting in his last 80 minutes.

[juju151111]

:applause: :applause: :applause:
:applause: I just don't get how people have Bird over Magic in 82. He averaged basically a triple double.

[Pointguard]

I'll take Bird's 10 rpg on great outlet passing over Magic's 7 rpg which may potentially start a fast break. You are forgetting that Bird himself started alot of fastbreaks when he grabbed a rebound with his outlet passing.
Watch the '85 and '87 finals and you couldn't even pretend they were remotely on the same scale. And you got the screenname to boot. :lol

[juju151111]

Watch the '85 and '87 finals and you couldn't even pretend they were remotely on the same scale. And you got the screenname to boot. :lol
Even Bird fans know Magic comes to play in the nba finals/playoffs. He so good in finals they cliamed Magic putting up 18/12/56% is tragic. Magic made a mistake put so did his teammates. 85 n 87 made up for it.

[Pointguard]

Bird was A WAY BETTER DEFENDER Than Magic Was

Defensive Rating

1979-80 NBA 98.2 (6)
1980-81 NBA 98.6 (10)
1981-82 NBA 99.4 (6)
1983-84 NBA 100.8 (2)
1984-85 NBA 102.8 (9)
1985-86 NBA 99.4 (4)
Career NBA 101.4 (61)

NBA & ABA Yearly Playoff Leaders and Records for Defensive Rating

2012 NBA Josh Smith 93.20 ATL
2011 NBA Dwight Howard 95.73 ORL
2010 NBA Dwight Howard 92.98 ORL
2009 NBA Dwight Howard 98.35 ORL
2008 NBA Tim Duncan 98.51 SAS
2007 NBA Jason Kidd 94.63 NJN
2006 NBA Alonzo Mourning 95.13 MIA
2005 NBA Ben Wallace 93.48 DET
2004 NBA Ben Wallace 83.91 DET
2003 NBA Ben Wallace 90.51 DET
2002 NBA Ben Wallace 86.41 DET
2001 NBA David Robinson* 92.42 SAS
2000 NBA David Robinson* 84.01 SAS
1999 NBA David Robinson* 87.33 SAS
1998 NBA David Robinson* 93.42 SAS
1997 NBA Alonzo Mourning 94.64 MIA
1996 NBA Scottie Pippen* 96.07 CHI
1995 NBA David Robinson* 97.53 SAS
1994 NBA Patrick Ewing* 94.34 NYK
1993 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 96.56 HOU
1992 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.35 DET
1991 NBA Scottie Pippen* 99.52 CHI
1990 NBA Bill Laimbeer 96.32 DET
1989 NBA Dennis Rodman* 99.38 DET
1988 NBA Bill Laimbeer 99.51 DET
1987 NBA Hakeem Olajuwon* 102.24 HOU
1986 NBA Bill Walton* 100.62 BOS
1985 NBA Ralph Sampson* 97.16 HOU
1984 NBA Buck Williams 99.41 NJN
1983 NBA Moses Malone* 95.76 PHI
1982 NBA Larry Bird* 94.21 BOS
1981 NBA Truck Robinson 94.51 PHO
1980 NBA Larry Bird* 95.93 BOS

Defensive Win Shares

1979-80 NBA 5.6 (1)
1980-81 NBA 6.1 (1)
1981-82 NBA 5.7 (2)
1982-83 NBA 5.6 (5)
1983-84 NBA 5.6 (1)
1984-85 NBA 5.2 (2)
1985-86 NBA 6.2 (1)
1986-87 NBA 4.8 (6)
Career NBA 59.0 (25)

Magic controlled the pace of the game. The game was usually centered around Magic's ability to get the other team off of their game and onto his pace. They had to keep another player at the top of the key in fear of Magic's running ability. So there was always one player compromised on offense because of Magic and five players confused about taking the bait of playing at Magic's pace. Only Nash influenced pace as much as Magic.

[Round Mound]

Magic controlled the pace of the game. The game was usually centered around Magic's ability to get the other team off of their game and onto his pace. They had to keep another player at the top of the key in fear of Magic's running ability. So there was always one player compromised on offense because of Magic and five players confused about taking the bait of playing at Magic's pace. Only Nash influenced pace as much as Magic.

That`s His Jobe cause he is a Point-Guard. I Know He Influced Pace More Than Any PG Ever (but Maybe Stockton, More than Nash) but Still It Was His Job..While Having Alot of Athletic Players Along Side Him for Break Passes Made It Easier for Himself and His Fellow Teamates.

Still Doesn`t Change the Fact that Bird Had More Impact on Defense than Magic. While Magic Had More Impact on Offense Slightly...Yet Bird Had Both Impacts In the Game While Magic One.

[TheBigVeto]

Bird > Magic
Stockton >>>> Isiah
Nash > Magic
/thread

[Pointguard]

That`s His Jobe cause he is a Point-Guard. I Know He Influced Pace More Than Any PG Ever (but Maybe Stockton, More than Nash) but Still It Was His Job..While Having Alot of Athletic Players Along Side Him for Break Passes Made It Easier for Himself and His Fellow Teamates.

Still Doesn`t Change the Fact that Bird Had More Impact on Defense than Magic. While Magic Had More Impact on Offense Slightly...Yet Bird Had Both Impacts In the Game While Magic One.
Ohhhh, so KG is definitely had more impact than Barkley??? Glad that argument is put to rest. And you say it so convincingly!

The argument of pace is an argument of defense. If I can control the way an opponents team executes its offense, then it's under the category of defense. When teams get tired and start missing at the end of games its like Motombo back there for defense, except tiredness affects judgement and all execution. I don't care if it is their job. If it affected the other's teams offensive execution it's under the category of defense. If it affects their shots at the end of the game its clutch defense. I know you don't see it that way but its a reality that the offensive team has to deal with because they played Magic's pace.

Bird shot about 54% in the first two games of '87 and about 37% the last two games. And Bird could handle Worthy. In '85 he starts missing foul shots and just doesn't have the energy to shoot in the last two games. Magic pushes the pace, Bird gets tired. Bird's execution level goes down. A very definite relationship between the events. Bird and Celtics can't stop Magic. One player has definitely affected the game and series more than the other. At the very least, pace affects offense and is in the category of defense.

Why did you say Stockton had impact on pace??? He was a great precision passer off of the pick and role but no way was he on Nash's level of influence on pace. MJ's flu game is a classic example of Stockton not pushing the pace when he should have, MJ showed signs of being tired at half time - no way do Nash or Magic do not go on their horse upon seeing that. Nash, Magic and Kidd are in their separate category in regards to pace - except Kidd's pace didn't suck you up mentally like Nash and Magic. Wall has the capacity to supersede them all but that's guess work for now. But this is why you won't hear me complain about Nash's MVP. Overall teams were missing a lot at the end of games and he was the reason why.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Why exactly are some taking Magic over Bird in '80?


The list you made seems like a regular season nd not including everythin. How is Bird better then Magic in 82 and 88?

No, my list is just the better player. Postseason is factored in, and it's one of the reasons I went with Magic over Bird in '87 despite not being convinced Magic was the better player yet. Despite Bird having a great playoff run, Magic playing so well in the finals sealed it.

Magic's regular season in '88 definitely didn't reach his '87 level, while Bird's '88 regular season was at least as good as '87, probably a bit better.

With Magic and Bird being so close in '87, the fact that Magic's '88 season was clearly below his '87 one, and Bird's '88 season has a case over '87, but just barely falls short, imo due to his superior playoff run in '87 it makes '88 an easier choice to me.

I'm not going to say Bird is a worse player because he shot poorly in the Detroit series. Shooting that poorly was an anomaly for prime Larry Bird. But look at what he did up until that point, not just the duel with Nique, but he was ridiculously good all year. Whether it was leading the Celtics to such a great record without his second best player McHale despite no bench, or getting Boston to a record not far below the Lakers despite not having nearly the depth Magic did.

Give Boston a bench in '88 and they probably get the championship back, as it is, even with no bench, fatigue(with an older team having to play such big minutes due to the lack of a bench after coming off 4 straight deep playoff runs to the finals), and Bird shooting so poorly, they still had a legitimate chance to beat Detroit. And despite that being one of Bird's worst series, if not his worst, it shows how good his all around game.

And while I rarely do this type of thing, the Lakers got extremely lucky in the finals, just look at the call Kareem got on that missed sky hook. The Lakers should have lost that series.

Magic was not a better player in 1982, I can see why some choose it just looking at the season on paper, but he was not as complete of a player. He didn't have much of a half court skill set yet due to the lack of an outside shot or post game.

Bird was more complete entering the league, which isn't a knock on Magic who was 3 years younger and not the man on his team. While Magic was arguably the Lakers best player by '84, he didn't get to be the man until '87.

Yes, he won a championship, but that was still Kareem's team. Not only because Kareem was by far their best scorer and the one Laker consistently drawing double teams, but because he was still blocking about 3 shots per game which gives him a considerable edge over Magic as far as defensive impact.

Plus, while Magic always had his incredible ability as a passer, his impact as a playmaker on that team wasn't the same as '84-'91 because he was still splitting ball-handling duties with Norm Nixon.

Team success is not a fair way to compare. Kareem was the Lakers clear 1st option in '82, and also their best player. And the Lakers also had Nixon and Wilkes to give them at least 4 all-star caliber players, and they had a rejuvenated Bob McAdoo who played like an all-star, plus Michael Cooper who is arguably the best role player of all-time.

Magic and Bird were not in comparable situations for the first 5 seasons of their career. And the '82 Lakers in particular are one of the most talented teams of all-time.


Everything in 85 is even until you look at the Finals where Magic completely outplayed him. Everyone is banged up by that point, using a thumb injury of all things as if its a knee, ankle, or wrist issue is completely laughble.

How the **** is everything even until the '85 finals? :facepalm Larry averaged 29/11/7, 1.6 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52/43/88 shooting.

Bird didn't just have a thumb injury, he had an assortment of injuries, they were mentioned during the series. Look at how limited Larry was in the Philly series. The first 2 series, Bird averages 30.3 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 6.1 apg on 49% in 9 games despite missing a game in the Cleveland series with bursitis on bone chips in his elbow.

He then averages just 20.8 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6 apg on 42% in the Philly series. But yeah, he was healthy, despite numerous reports to the contrary and his performance suffering greatly.


Magic could get burned by smaller players, but so would Bird-even worse I might add. Difference is Magic was far better at guarding players at or near his own size.

Bird usually didn't guard smaller players, in fact, he guarded power forwards quite often. Neither were known for their man to man defense, but I haven't seen Bird exploited the way Magic was defensively. If you're going to give Magic credit for his rebounding because of his position you can't ignore his inability to guard smaller players since he faced them much more than Bird because of his position.


I have to add Magic has a great argument in 82 and 83 as he was FAR SUPERIOR in the playoffs.

He doesn't have a great argument, he was clearly not even the best player on his team at that point. His argument is reasonable, but more looking at the season on paper than actually watching their games from those seasons.

And Magic over Bird in '85 is just laughable. Bird was about as clear cut of a best player as you'll see. If you're going to choose Magic over Bird because of a better finals series then you should remain consistent and rank Kareem over Magic because he was clearly the best player in that series.

The difference is, Kareem and Magic were debatable in '85, Bird and Magic really weren't. You have to wait until '87 for that.


Magic was the more productive rebounder. Not all rebounds are created equal. When Magic rebounded the opposing team went in panic mode. Magic was an impact rebounder. He unbalanced the floor and could get points off of the rebound unlike any player ever. I doubt that there is a coach around that would want 10 of Bird's rebounds over 8 of Magics. The whole Laker team would lick their lips when Magic would get the rebound. Their juices got flowing. There is no way you could have seen 87 or 85 finals and could possibly think that there was any semblance of their rebounds being equal. Boston got deflated when Magic rebounded or stole the ball and the inverse happened for the Lakers.

I think the exact opposite, Bird's rebounding was something I noticed more watching the games. His technique and instinct seemed better. Magic was a better rebounder than Jason Kidd for example, but much like Kidd, he got quite a few uncontested rebounds the other players conceded so he could start the break.

Bird also played with clearly superior rebounders. Parish for example averaged 12.5 rpg in '89 when Bird missed the season, then there was McHale who was definitely capable of 10 rpg on most teams, as it is, he basically averaged 10 with Bird and Parish(9.9 rpgin '87), and in a season like '86, you add Walton into the mix, and he was still an excellent rebounder.

Kareem post-'81 wasn't a great rebounder either. Plus, before '84 especially, Magic was rarely used as a 1 on 1 player in the half court, with the ball frequently going in to Kareem, Magic could move without the ball and get in position for rebounds


So let me get this straight, the best way to guard Magic is hold him to 43 ppg while shooting a stellar 55% and this great defense will somehow transfer into Coop, Worthy and Scott missing every shot Magic didn't spoon feed them with? And you wonder why it didn't catch on, huh?

My point was that Magic was such a good passer that if you double teamed him, he pick your team apart. Instead, they made him a scorer, and went with the strategy of letting Magic get his instead of letting everyone else. It's a strategy that's been used a variety of times, and with success, even vs guys who were more scorers than Magic.

The Lakers weren't built with Magic averaging 30 or dropping 40+ in mind. But playing him 1 on 1 most of the time may have contributed to the other Lakers struggling. Those players have to be held accountable offensively, not Magic, but credit also goes to Cotton Fitzsimmons for the strategy.


Hornacek wasn't breaking Magic down off of the dribble. Rarely ever did Hornacek get points on the initial defender. He scored like Reggie Miller. Magic was by far the best player in that series. And he was twice as good as any Laker in the series. While Majerle's good defense on Magic was stoping Magic at 43/7/8 we somehow missed how it totally crushed Worthy to 24% shooting in his last 80 minutes.

As far as defense, well, that is the one thing you can blame Magic for. That's why his defense could be a problem, they knew they couldn't put him on KJ(who went off on a much smaller, better defender in Scott, just as he had outplayed another good defender around his size in Stockton the previous series), so he ended up on Hornacek a lot, but Hornacek was a phenomenal shooter, and since Magic roamed quite a bit, he was vulnerable against shooters.

Offensively, Worthy was a legit star in his prime, and he deserved the blame, especially with Tom Chambers guarding him a lot. And there's no excuse for a cast as talented as the '90 Lakers to not get theirs regardless.

Again, I'm not blaming Magic for his offense, or even in general for the series loss. There's not really much of an argument to be had on the '90 series.

[Sarcastic]

Magic 82 >>> Bird 82.

Don't know why people put Bird as the better player other than seeing a double/double.

[Celtic_Pride]

20 years from now people on ISH will say,

"Kobe in 01 and 02 >> Duncan in 01 and 02

Don't know why people put Duncan as the better player other than seeing a double/double"

[juju151111]

Magic 82 >>> Bird 82.

Don't know why people put Bird as the better player other than seeing a double/double.
He averaged a near triple double. You can even look at the 84 finals Magic shot 56% I think and Bird like 49%. Birds teammates saved his ass. Shaqattacck blaming Bird inconsistent Finals performer on his injury. Ohh pls cry me a river everybody is nicked up. What happen in 87 then? Was he injured again. Bird never really dominated FG% wise in the finals. Bird got outplayed

[Pointguard]

Yes, he won a championship, but that was still Kareem's team. Not only because Kareem was by far their best scorer and the one Laker consistently drawing double teams, but because he was still blocking about 3 shots per game which gives him a considerable edge over Magic as far as defensive impact.
Magic not only controlled the pace but he made all the major decisions. When they ran, and when they didn't, what side of the floor the play would flow and who got it where. Do we wait for Kareem or do we not. When do we set up Worthy instead of Kareem. Kareem came down the court late and was neatly placed on the blocks. He wasn't the leader, he wasn't the inspirational leader, he barely rebounded, he wasn't the first option, he wasn't the glue - he bocked a few shots and posted up. The majority of execution, leadership, team guidance, excitement, attention to detail, risk taking and setting up was on Magic. At the end of the day, Magic's leadership, decision making, winning ways had more impact on the team than Kareem had on any of his previous teams when he did much more than he did on those 80 Laker teams.

In fact Kareem's Laker lead teams lacked leadership, excitement, cohesion and good decision making. They were always a dead end team. Kareem was the better scorer and shot blocker but too much of the Laker teams were a mix and gel of other qualities.



I think the exact opposite, Bird's rebounding was something I noticed more watching the games. His technique and instinct seemed better. Magic was a better rebounder than Jason Kidd for example, but much like Kidd, he got quite a few uncontested rebounds the other players conceded so he could start the break.
You missed the point I made about the difference in the value of Magic's rebounding vs. anybody else in the game. Its not just the rebound it's what happens after the rebound. Once Magic rebounded the ball the opposing team immediately began playing Magic ball and was subject to Magic's decision making. Its not like just grabbing a rebound. With Magic it was transition, and playing on your heels if you were the defense.


My point was that Magic was such a good passer that if you double teamed him, he pick your team apart. Instead, they made him a scorer, and went with the strategy of letting Magic get his instead of letting everyone else. It's a strategy that's been used a variety of times, and with success, even vs guys who were more scorers than Magic.

The Lakers weren't built with Magic averaging 30 or dropping 40+ in mind. But playing him 1 on 1 most of the time may have contributed to the other Lakers struggling. Those players have to be held accountable offensively, not Magic, but credit also goes to Cotton Fitzsimmons for the strategy.

The team has to adjust. I too would try to isolate the brain from the body. But Worthy played horribly (24% is just crazy), Scott played scared and Coop was just off. Magic was on an island by himself. It wasn't the last time Scott and Worthy would do that to Magic. When Worthy lost his blinding speed he lived off of Magic and lost his creativity.



As far as defense, well, that is the one thing you can blame Magic for. That's why his defense could be a problem, they knew they couldn't put him on KJ(who went off on a much smaller, better defender in Scott, just as he had outplayed another good defender around his size in Stockton the previous series), so he ended up on Hornacek a lot, but Hornacek was a phenomenal shooter, and since Magic roamed quite a bit, he was vulnerable against shooters.
When Cooper and Scott were in the game they frequently guarded Horny and KJ like the Laker's did with most teams that had guys like Majerle and Eddie Johnson at SF. That was the usual and it made sense height wise. It was like that with Coop and Nixon before Scott came. Coop always took the hardest cover and Scott usually the smallest. I can't say I remember this series like that, but I thought it was Magic on Majerle.

[1987_Lakers]

The team has to adjust. I too would try to isolate the brain from the body. But Worthy played horribly (24% is just crazy), Scott played scared and Coop was just off. Magic was on an island by himself. It wasn't the last time Scott and Worthy would do that to Magic. When Worthy lost his blinding speed he lived off of Magic and lost his creativity.

That's the thing that bugs me about Scott. He was a great athlete with some offensive skill, but in big games he always seemed to disappear. Pat Riley use to have private conversations with Scott just to boost his confidence.

[oolalaa]

Magic not only controlled the pace but he made all the major decisions. When they ran, and when they didn't, what side of the floor the play would flow and who got it where. Do we wait for Kareem or do we not. When do we set up Worthy instead of Kareem. Kareem came down the court late and was neatly placed on the blocks. He wasn't the leader, he wasn't the inspirational leader, he barely rebounded, he wasn't the first option, he wasn't the glue - he bocked a few shots and posted up. The majority of execution, leadership, team guidance, excitement, attention to detail, risk taking and setting up was on Magic. At the end of the day, Magic's leadership, decision making, winning ways had more impact on the team than Kareem had on any of his previous teams when he did much more than he did on those 80 Laker teams.


Great stuff :applause: People can compare respective Xs & Os of players all they want but it's about IMPACT. Magic was running that Laker team from '82 onwards. He was their leader and their driving force. I certainly wouldn't call him their clear cut best player but I've always thought it was a 1a/1b scenario (Magic 1a, Kareem 1b) until 83/84, when Magic officially took over.

[SHAQisGOAT]

1980: Bird
1981: Bird
1982: Magic
1983: Bird
1984: Bird
1985: Bird
1986: Bird
1987: Magic
1988: Magic
1990: Magic
1991: Magic

imo

[G.O.A.T]

Magic was not a better player in 1982, I can see why some choose it just looking at the season on paper, but he was not as complete of a player. He didn't have much of a half court skill set yet due to the lack of an outside shot or post game.

Yes, he won a championship, but that was still Kareem's team. Not only because Kareem was by far their best scorer and the one Laker consistently drawing double teams, but because he was still blocking about 3 shots per game which gives him a considerable edge over Magic as far as defensive impact.



Magic not only controlled the pace but he made all the major decisions. When they ran, and when they didn't, what side of the floor the play would flow and who got it where. Do we wait for Kareem or do we not. When do we set up Worthy instead of Kareem. Kareem came down the court late and was neatly placed on the blocks. He wasn't the leader, he wasn't the inspirational leader, he barely rebounded, he wasn't the first option, he wasn't the glue - he bocked a few shots and posted up. The majority of execution, leadership, team guidance, excitement, attention to detail, risk taking and setting up was on Magic. At the end of the day, Magic's leadership, decision making, winning ways had more impact on the team than Kareem had on any of his previous teams when he did much more than he did on those 80 Laker teams.


Great stuff :applause: People can compare respective Xs & Os of players all they want but it's about IMPACT. Magic was running that Laker team from '82 onwards. He was their leader and their driving force. I certainly wouldn't call him their clear cut best player but I've always thought it was a 1a/1b scenario (Magic 1a, Kareem 1b) until 83/84, when Magic officially took over.

A good discussion. I don't think there is any way to say it was Kareem's team in 1982. Certainly he was still there most overall skilled player, but all the evidence says it was Magic's team and that he was perceived to have more impact/value. From 1982 on Magic always finished higher in the MVP voting. During the 1982 season the Lakers organization made a clear shift from Kareem to Magic as their centerpiece. They fired a coach who favored an offense built around Kareem and hired a coach whose offense would be tailored to Magic.

Now this was however intended to be a subtle transition. Kareem's role did not diminish except for what time took away. He was still their number one scoring option in the half court. It wasn't until 1986-87 that coach Pat Riley went to Magic and told him he needed to be more assertive and that Kareem too now felt it was Magic's time. Magic had thought it was his team for years, but in reflection understood the difference after the 86-87 season and the junior sky hook which punctuated it.

Still the primary reason I just can't see calling it Kareem's team is he didn't do anything to suggest it was off the court. He didn't even try, or feel he needed to. That wasn't much different then before Magic, but when you have a player as dynamic as Magic with the personality to match, that's whothe rest of the team is turning to. In the case of LA, that's very much how it played out.

[Pointguard]

1980: Bird
1981: Bird
1982: Magic
1983: Bird
1984: Bird
1985: Magic
1986: Bird
1987: Magic
1988: Magic
1990: Magic
1991: Magic

[Pointguard]

A good discussion. I don't think there is any way to say it was Kareem's team in 1982. Certainly he was still there most overall skilled player, but all the evidence says it was Magic's team and that he was perceived to have more impact/value. From 1982 on Magic always finished higher in the MVP voting. During the 1982 season the Lakers organization made a clear shift from Kareem to Magic as their centerpiece. They fired a coach who favored an offense built around Kareem and hired a coach whose offense would be tailored to Magic.

Now this was however intended to be a subtle transition. Kareem's role did not diminish except for what time took away. He was still their number one scoring option in the half court. It wasn't until 1986-87 that coach Pat Riley went to Magic and told him he needed to be more assertive and that Kareem too now felt it was Magic's time. Magic had thought it was his team for years, but in reflection understood the difference after the 86-87 season and the junior sky hook which punctuated it.

Still the primary reason I just can't see calling it Kareem's team is he didn't do anything to suggest it was off the court. He didn't even try, or feel he needed to. That wasn't much different then before Magic, but when you have a player as dynamic as Magic with the personality to match, that's whothe rest of the team is turning to. In the case of LA, that's very much how it played out.

Yes. Magic setup Kareem but the team played/vibed around Magic. The Lakers and Celtics were dynasty oriented and vaulued their players as such. There's a reason the Lakers totally invested in Magic after a couple of years and always looked at Kareem differently. The owners, president, vice-president, GM and coaches all knew where the bread and butter was. Magic had convinced everybody in a way Kareem never could. And the 80's could be labelled the rise of the dynasties. Kareem wasn't dynastic when there were few good teams.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Magic not only controlled the pace but he made all the major decisions. When they ran, and when they didn't, what side of the floor the play would flow and who got it where. Do we wait for Kareem or do we not. When do we set up Worthy instead of Kareem. Kareem came down the court late and was neatly placed on the blocks. He wasn't the leader, he wasn't the inspirational leader, he barely rebounded, he wasn't the first option, he wasn't the glue - he bocked a few shots and posted up. The majority of execution, leadership, team guidance, excitement, attention to detail, risk taking and setting up was on Magic. At the end of the day, Magic's leadership, decision making, winning ways had more impact on the team than Kareem had on any of his previous teams when he did much more than he did on those 80 Laker teams.

I'm not interested in the typical sports cliches like inspirational leader which is impossible to measure how much of a difference that makes. Plus "winning ways" is too vague for me. But I'm not giving Magic the edge for intangibles in '82.

Magic got their coach Paul Westhead fired purely for selfish reasons. It wasn't that the Lakers weren't winners under Westhead, they were a little over a year removed from a championship, and it was still early in the '81-'82 season, but the Lakers were on a 5 game winning streak. That's not leadership to me.

You're pretty much just listing things a point guard does that a center won't, and I'm not factoring in excitement to who the better player is.

These are some quotes from '82 and describe some of the big advantages Kareem had at that time over Magic.

As I've mentioned, Kareem had a huge advantage as a scorer, and particularly a half court scorer. Here's Robert Parish talking about how unstoppable he still was.


"There's not much you can do when Kareem gets the ball down there. You just try to deny him position, but that's easier said than done," said Celtics center Robert Parish,

Here's Bernard King talking about how Kareem being out of the line up allowed them to play strong man to man defense since they didn't have to double without Kareem.


"Sure, having Kareem out of there made a difference," said Bernard King, who scored 20 of his game-high 33 points in the first half for the Warriors. "With him out we could play real strong man-to-man defense."

Here's Magic talking about Kareem's presence defensively.


"They could do a lot of different things when they didn't have to worry about the big guy in there," said the Lakers' Magic Johnson. "They took advantage of that situation by running hard, getting inside and taking advantage of some mismatches."

And here's one more quote, this time from Pat Riley talking about Kareem had not lost anything. I think he had declined a bit, but not a huge decline..


"Kareem, the guy never left, he's never going anywhere," said Los Angeles coach Pat Riley. "It was a difficult game Thursday night. For him to come back tonight showed me the guy's got just about everything he always had."

Did you seriously say Kareem wasn't the 1st option? It's a documented fact that kareem was the first option for the first 7 seasons they played together. It was only in the '86-'87 season that Riley decided to make Magic the 1st option.

Credit to ThaRegul8r for this quote.

[QUOTE=Magic Johnson]
In 1986, the Lakers finished the season with a record of 62-20. That was a great start, but we were only warming up. As always, we came into the playoffs with high hopes and expectations. For five of the previous six years we had gone all the way to the championship series In 1980, and again in 1982, we had defeated Philadelphia to win the title. We had lost to Boston in 1984, but the following year we came back to beat them. Now, as the defending champions, we were looking forward to another title series against the Celtics.......

We won the opening game in the Forum. But Houston shocked us by winning the next four to take the series. The Rockets, with their

[get these NETS]

pre Magic, what exactly did the Kareem Lakers do?


pressure forms diamonds or busts pipes

magic blamed for getting coach fired..then goes out and wins more rings with new and inexperienced coach

years later penny is blamed for getting coach fired, tries to spread blame around to entire team and then his game regressed and he doesn't ever amount to shit after that

[juju151111]

Magic Johnson averaged a near triple double in 82. Who cares about the coach? They won the chip.

[eliteballer]

How the **** is everything even until the '85 finals? :facepalm Larry averaged 29/11/7, 1.6 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52/43/88 shooting.

Bird didn't just have a thumb injury, he had an assortment of injuries, they were mentioned during the series. Look at how limited Larry was in the Philly series. The first 2 series, Bird averages 30.3 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 6.1 apg on 49% in 9 games despite missing a game in the Cleveland series with bursitis on bone chips in his elbow.

He then averages just 20.8 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6 apg on 42% in the Philly series. But yeah, he was healthy, despite numerous reports to the contrary and his performance suffering greatly.



and Magic averaged 18/6/13/1.5 on 57/84. Gee, I wonder if Birds dropoff in production had anything to do with the fact that the Sixers were a FAR FAR superior team to those he played in the first two rounds. Magic outplayed Bird statistically in 84 and completely outplayed in him in 87, so for you to jump around and assume Bird would outplay him in 85 based on a couple of tit tat injuries, is beyond laughable. All the evidence points in Magics favor.


Bird usually didn't guard smaller players, in fact, he guarded power forwards quite often. Neither were known for their man to man defense, but I haven't seen Bird exploited the way Magic was defensively. If you're going to give Magic credit for his rebounding because of his position you can't ignore his inability to guard smaller players since he faced them much more than Bird because of his position.


He doesn't have a great argument, he was clearly not even the best player on his team at that point. His argument is reasonable, but more looking at the season on paper than actually watching their games from those seasons.

And Magic over Bird in '85 is just laughable. Bird was about as clear cut of a best player as you'll see. If you're going to choose Magic over Bird because of a better finals series then you should remain consistent and rank Kareem over Magic because he was clearly the best player in that series.

The difference is, Kareem and Magic were debatable in '85, Bird and Magic really weren't. You have to wait until '87 for that.


I'm saying Bird WOULD get burned worse than Magic if he had to guard those players, and usually Magic was switched with the SG if there was great potential for being burned. Magic wasn't as big a liability as you're trying to make him out to be, especially when you see how teams purposely attacked Bird because he was such a bad man defender of ANY position. You think Maagic couldn't have played forward like Bird? He played PG because the advantages FAR outweighed any negatives. That positional versatility is an advantage over Bird. As for Magic being superior in 82 and 83, one only need look at their peformances in the playoffs. Magic was putting up historical numbers while Bird was choking to the Bucks and failing to crack 42% shooting in either run.

[mehyaM24]

Pointguard
Magic not only controlled the pace but he made all the major decisions. When they ran, and when they didn't, what side of the floor the play would flow and who got it where. Do we wait for Kareem or do we not. When do we set up Worthy instead of Kareem. Kareem came down the court late and was neatly placed on the blocks. He wasn't the leader, he wasn't the inspirational leader, he barely rebounded, he wasn't the first option, he wasn't the glue - he bocked a few shots and posted up. The majority of execution, leadership, team guidance, excitement, attention to detail, risk taking and setting up was on Magic. At the end of the day, Magic's leadership, decision making, winning ways had more impact on the team than Kareem had on any of his previous teams when he did much more than he did on those 80 Laker teams.

agreed...and adding onto your point,la had prime kareem for years before magic....and year after year of failure....what happens when magic comes? year after year of success with an old kareem

i always hear things like "shaq had kobe"..."shaq had wade". who says kareem had oscar robertson and magic? mj(magic) and shaq were far more valuable than kareem and kobe.

[Pointguard]

I'm saying Bird WOULD get burned worse than Magic if he had to guard those players, and usually Magic was switched with the SG if there was great potential for being burned. Magic wasn't as big a liability as you're trying to make him out to be, especially when you see how teams purposely attacked Bird because he was such a bad man defender of ANY position. You think Maagic couldn't have played forward like Bird? He played PG because the advantages FAR outweighed any negatives. That positional versatility is an advantage over Bird. As for Magic being superior in 82 and 83, one only need look at their peformances in the playoffs. Magic was putting up historical numbers while Bird was choking to the Bucks and failing to crack 42% shooting in either run.
Excellent Post.

I didn't know the playoff difference was that humongous in those two years. I do remember thinking that Bird had problems in the playoffs but I didn't know it was that bad. In what way are people even thinking about giving Bird 1982??? Its not close. It wasn't close in the regular season. Not only did Magic win FMVP, but he was, like you said, flirting with a triple double in the regular season.

Regular Season 1982
Magic..18.6 ppg 9.6ast. 9.5reb 527% 226% 3pt 3.7 TO
Bird....22.9ppg 5.8 ast. 10.9reb 503% 212% 3pt 3.3 TO

Magic lead the league in steals. Magic has one of the best years of a player showing great balance and judgment. The rebounds are very close as are the turnovers. Two huge plus for Magic. Magic gets distance on shooting percentage and obviously assist. The shooting percentage coupled with scoring is close to even but we'll give Bird a slight edge.


Playoffs 1982
Bird.. .427% .822FT 17.8ppg 12.5reb 5.6ast 80%FT
Magic .529% .828FT 17.4ppg 11.3reb 9.3ast 83%FT

Magic wins Finals MVP. Bird has a very bad shooting percentage for that time period. Bird barely outscores Magic. Bird has only one decent shooting game in two series (12 games) and had other guys hitting at a much better clip and who were scorers.

The funny thing is that Magic was like Kidd in that stats don't really show his impact. He rebounded with more value than any other rebounder. He lead the league in steals and that too had more value than any other defensive play in the game because it was usually a 4 point reversal. His control of pace wasn't recorded, and neither was his ability to keep everybody in the offense.

A lot of people here either did not see 1982 and just assumed Bird was a more polished player. Magic was much further along in the playoffs the first four years. His spontaniety and adaption to different teams was just a lot better than Birds. I couldn't tell if it was good defenses or the playoffs that got Bird off of his game. Magic was playoff ready since day one and therefore was further along than Bird was. Until '84 Bird was unpredicatable and, in general had a bad shooting touch in the playoffs. Though, like Magic, he had all around game he could resort to when his shot went astray as it often did. Magic used better judgment to navigate his shooting woes but that rarely happened in the years in question here.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Magic Johnson averaged a near triple double in 82. Who cares about the coach? They won the chip.

If people are going to bring up Magic's intangibles then that's certainly relevant. Any player today gets slammed for anything remotely similar.

Intangibles were brought up in the Magic/Kareem debate for '82. Kareem also won a title, went about his business, didn't try to play GM and was the best player on that championship team.


and Magic averaged 18/6/13/1.5 on 57/84. Gee, I wonder if Birds dropoff in production had anything to do with the fact that the Sixers were a FAR FAR superior team to those he played in the first two rounds. Magic outplayed Bird statistically in 84 and completely outplayed in him in 87, so for you to jump around and assume Bird would outplay him in 85 based on a couple of tit tat injuries, is beyond laughable. All the evidence points in Magics favor.

Magic's regular season was not as impressive as Bird's, and it's not particularly close.

:oldlol: at you acting like the numerous reports of Bird's injuries were bullshit.

Here's a list of Bird's injuries from a May 20th, 1985 article, and it's basically what I remembering them saying throughout the finals broadcasts.

[QUOTE]Larry Bird floating bone chips

[Hands of Iron]

Bird was a better basketball player up until his injuries began to surface.

[Math2]

Bird was a better basketball player up until his injuries began to surface.

Yup, but the fact that Magic continued at such a high level (hell, he could have kept going after HIV) for those extra couple years puts him above Bird. Barely.

[Hands of Iron]

Yup, but the fact that Magic continued at such a high level (hell, he could have kept going after HIV) for those extra couple years puts him above Bird. Barely.

No problem with that at all. He ended up accomplishing more in the end and outlasted Larry. He was never far behind to begin with. That was probably the most blunt, worst post I've made so far on here. I do consider it the truth, though. We can talk numbers all day long, particular seasons and series and this and that. Overall, Bird was a better scorer, shooter and rebounder. Even at Magic's forte, Bird registers in all likelihood as the greatest passing forward there's ever been. He is - at worst - amongst the top three all-time clutch players. He will take over games and murder you in cold blood. Obviously neither were great defensively on the ball, but Larry was phenomenal as far as playing team defense when healthy and it's thanks in large part to his basketball IQ, instincts and relentless hustle. Damn near Perfect Player.

[juju151111]

If people are going to bring up Magic's intangibles then that's certainly relevant. Any player today gets slammed for anything remotely similar.

Intangibles were brought up in the Magic/Kareem debate for '82. Kareem also won a title, went about his business, didn't try to play GM and was the best player on that championship team.



Magic's regular season was not as impressive as Bird's, and it's not particularly close.

:oldlol: at you acting like the numerous reports of Bird's injuries were bullshit.

Here's a list of Bird's injuries from a May 20th, 1985 article, and it's basically what I remembering them saying throughout the finals broadcasts.



I don't think it's a coincidence that with numerous reports of injuries, Bird's performance suffers greatly.

No evidence points in Magic's favor. It's complete revisionist history to rank Magic over Bird in '85.

Your entire case is that Magic had a better finals series than Bird. Well, Kareem had a better finals series than both, so by this logic, he was better than both.

Are you willing to be consistent and admit this? Not that I believe you're finally going to answer this question because you've continued to dodge it.

The difference is, Magic vs Kareem was debatable in '85. Bird was clearly better than both and anyone in the league at that time.



Bird wasn't in a position to defend guards so I don't really care what either of us think would happen. He did a better job defending the players he actually defended than Magic did and was also the better help defender.

Magic didn't have the half court skill set to be ranked over Bird in '82 and '83. No real outside shot or post game.

Bird was close to getting voted MVP over Moses Malone who had a historic season in '82. Nobody else got a significant amount of votes. And that was with Bird dealing with injuries throughout that season.
I am sorry, but thats BS. Magic outlayed Bird twice in the finals and in 84 his stats were still good. I am not paying this injury excuse, when Bird never really outplayed him Magic. Why does it matter if Magic didn't master his Post game in 82? He was more athlethic back then and ur missing the fact that he averged a near triple double.

[Champ]

I am sorry, but thats BS. Magic outlayed Bird twice in the finals and in 84 his stats were still good. I am not paying this injury excuse, when Bird never really outplayed him Magic. Why does it matter if Magic didn't master his Post game in 82? He was more athlethic back then and ur missing the fact that he averged a near triple double.

Bird outplayed Magic in the '84 finals.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I am sorry, but thats BS. Magic outlayed Bird twice in the finals and in 84 his stats were still good. I am not paying this injury excuse, when Bird never really outplayed him Magic. Why does it matter if Magic didn't master his Post game in 82? He was more athlethic back then and ur missing the fact that he averged a near triple double.

First of all, Bird did have a better finals series in '84 than Magic, and what does Magic outplaying Bird in the finals twice mean? It's not like it's inevitable no matter how many times they play each other as we saw in '84 when Bird outplayed Magic. 1 series doesn't decide who the better player is either.

It's not an "injury excuse", he was injured. It's just a fact.

Why does it matter that he didn't have a post game back then? :oldlol: Because his half court game was limited, especially without an outside shot too.

I'm well aware of the fact that he nearly averaged a triple double, I'm not missing that. But it doesn't make him a better basketball player than Bird was in 1982, and certainly not better than Kareem was. And 1982 Magic was certainly not the player he'd become from '87-'91, or '84-'86 for that matter.

Was that post supposed to convince me?

[BlackVVaves]

Excellent Post.

I didn't know the playoff difference was that humongous in those two years. I do remember thinking that Bird had problems in the playoffs but I didn't know it was that bad. In what way are people even thinking about giving Bird 1982??? Its not close. It wasn't close in the regular season. Not only did Magic win FMVP, but he was, like you said, flirting with a triple double in the regular season.

Regular Season 1982
Magic..18.6 ppg 9.6ast. 9.5reb 527% 226% 3pt 3.7 TO
Bird....22.9ppg 5.8 ast. 10.9reb 503% 212% 3pt 3.3 TO

Magic lead the league in steals. Magic has one of the best years of a player showing great balance and judgment. The rebounds are very close as are the turnovers. Two huge plus for Magic. Magic gets distance on shooting percentage and obviously assist. The shooting percentage coupled with scoring is close to even but we'll give Bird a slight edge.


Playoffs 1982
Bird.. .427% .822FT 17.8ppg 12.5reb 5.6ast 80%FT
Magic .529% .828FT 17.4ppg 11.3reb 9.3ast 83%FT

Magic wins Finals MVP. Bird has a very bad shooting percentage for that time period. Bird barely outscores Magic. Bird has only one decent shooting game in two series (12 games) and had other guys hitting at a much better clip and who were scorers.

The funny thing is that Magic was like Kidd in that stats don't really show his impact. He rebounded with more value than any other rebounder. He lead the league in steals and that too had more value than any other defensive play in the game because it was usually a 4 point reversal. His control of pace wasn't recorded, and neither was his ability to keep everybody in the offense.

A lot of people here either did not see 1982 and just assumed Bird was a more polished player. Magic was much further along in the playoffs the first four years. His spontaniety and adaption to different teams was just a lot better than Birds. I couldn't tell if it was good defenses or the playoffs that got Bird off of his game. Magic was playoff ready since day one and therefore was further along than Bird was. Until '84 Bird was unpredicatable and, in general had a bad shooting touch in the playoffs. Though, like Magic, he had all around game he could resort to when his shot went astray as it often did. Magic used better judgment to navigate his shooting woes but that rarely happened in the years in question here.

:applause:

I share these same thoughts, but for once didn't feel like creating a book long post, LoL.

Waiting for a rebuttal with actual evidence to combat this (Magic was the better player in 1982) from any of the posters who said/believe Bird was the better player that season.

[juju151111]

First of all, Bird did have a better finals series in '84 than Magic, and what does Magic outplaying Bird in the finals twice mean? It's not like it's inevitable no matter how many times they play each other as we saw in '84 when Bird outplayed Magic. 1 series doesn't decide who the better player is either.

It's not an "injury excuse", he was injured. It's just a fact.

Why does it matter that he didn't have a post game back then? :oldlol: Because his half court game was limited, especially without an outside shot too.

I'm well aware of the fact that he nearly averaged a triple double, I'm not missing that. But it doesn't make him a better basketball player than Bird was in 1982, and certainly not better than Kareem was. And 1982 Magic was certainly not the player he'd become from '87-'91, or '84-'86 for that matter.

Was that post supposed to convince me?
I said Magic tats were still good in 84 finals not that he outplayed him. The fact is Bird got outplayed twice. What did Bird do in 1982 then have a poor performance in the playoffs. Magic averaged a near triple double and then won finals MVP

[KevinNYC]

A team that "almost entirely depended on Bird" would not have as a Finals' MVP (1981) another player but Bird. OK, you may argue that the voting was flawed, but a team that depended on Bird that much would not easily win Finals' games when Bird would only score 8 and 12 points respectively, regardless of the rest of his game, unless maybe he played some Bill Russell level defense (than again, we all know Russell himself had plenty of help).
Also, a team that dependent on Bird would not include multiple other All-Stars (not even multiple All-Stars including Bird, but multiple All-Stars except Bird), including the 1981 ASG MVP, it would not have a guy producing close to 19/10/3 blocks/54.5% FG in just 28.0 mpg (for PER lovers, that's 25.2, compared to Bird's 19.9), it would not use Kevin McHale as a 6th man, it would not have 8 of its players play for 80-82 games, etc.
Enough with this "Celtics were not deep" myth.

McHale was a rookie in 1981 and played 20 minutes a game, just slightly more than the 19 played by Rick Robey or Gerald Henderson.

In the game Bird scored 8 points and the Celtics won, he had 13 rebounds, 10 assists and 5 steals and two blocks. In the game he scored 12 points and they won he had 12 rebounds and 8 assists and a block. So he pretty active otherwise. But you're right, when the Celtics defense was playing well and they got out on the break, that team could roll you over.

[KevinNYC]

it's acknowledged by everybody that Magic and Bird's popularity ushered in the modern nba...ratings, game show on tv live....finals airing LIVE,etc



Nobody since russell in the 1960s has gotten 3 consecutive mvp awards except Bird. Do you think it's a legit accomplishment, or do you think it was the league and reporters working to market the nba to white audience?

not Jordan,KAJ, Magic,Moses,Shaq, Duncan,Dream,...literally nobody else has done it.

I say there's no legit way that anyone can say that Bird enjoyed the most dominant 3 year stretch(relative to other players) in the NBA....post 1970..and that the 3 consecutive mvps were bullshit, to promote a white superstar to mainstream audiences.

Bird was in fact a Great player....an alltime great..legit superstar and winner..but I'm calling bull on the fact that he got award three straight years ...first and only player since Russell.

So who else should have won the MVP in 1984 or 85 or 86?

[Hands of Iron]

So who else should have won the MVP in 1984 or 85 or 86?

Nobody.

[jlauber]

Given their play in the post-season, I would give Magic an edge in the majority of their seasons in the league together. Furthermore, Magic could have scored considerably more had he been so inclined. Instead, he directed the most prolific offense of the 80's, with a devastating fast break that just torched the league. Hell, the '85 Lakers AVERAGED 126 ppg in the entire post-season. As great an offensive player as Kareem was, it was Magic that LED the Laker attack.

Having said, that, the fact that opinions on this subject are divided nearly down the middle is all we need to know. They were BOTH great, and they brought the NBA back from the decline that followed Wilt's retirement. (Yes, read Rosen's book on the '72 Lakers, and then take a look at where the NBA was by the 78-79 season.)

They were both among the greatest "winners" in NBA history, and are generally ranked pretty close to each other in all-time "rankings"...and that is as it should be. The two were tied together, just as Russell and Chamberlain were tied together.

[Hands of Iron]

Given their play in the post-season, I would give Magic an edge in the majority of their seasons in the league together. Furthermore, Magic could have scored considerably more had he been so inclined. Instead, he directed the most prolific offense of the 80's, with a devastating fast break that just torched the league. Hell, the '85 Lakers AVERAGED 126 ppg in the entire post-season. As great an offensive player as Kareem was, it was Magic that LED the Laker attack.

Having said, that, the fact that opinions on this subject are divided nearly down the middle is all we need to know. They were BOTH great, and they brought the NBA back from the decline that followed Wilt's retirement. (Yes, read Rosen's book on the '72 Lakers, and then take a look at where the NBA was by the 78-79 season.)

They were both among the greatest "winners" in NBA history, and are generally ranked pretty close to each other in all-time "rankings"...and that is as it should be. The two were tied together, just as Russell and Chamberlain were tied together.

So too could Bird, really. He could score playing with or off the ball from pretty much anywhere on the floor. It came all too natural, and was within the team concept. You don't earn the title of 'Greatest Passing Forward' by being a selfish or limited player. He was just as good at setting up and feeding teammates as he was at dropping 30 or 40 on you.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:applause:

I share these same thoughts, but for once didn't feel like creating a book long post, LoL.

Waiting for a rebuttal with actual evidence to combat this (Magic was the better player in 1982) from any of the posters who said/believe Bird was the better player that season.

Yeah, Bird was already getting talk of being the best player of all time by '82. I don't agree with it at all, but he was better than Magic.

As I said, Moses Malone had a historically dominant '82 season which I covered here. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272312

And Bird, who struggled with injuries and even came off the bench for a significant stretch because of thst led Boston to 63 wins, was selected to the all-defensive second team and was still almost voted MVP.

Moses had 40 first place votes and 507 points overall, Bird had 20 first place votes and 456 points overall. Nobody else was close.

But outside of just listing accomplishments and playing paper basketball(which is the only type of case I've seen made for '82 Magic), Larry's skill set was just far above Magic's at that point. Their impact was closer than skill sets, but Larry's vastly superior half court game matters to me.


I said Magic tats were still good in 84 finals not that he outplayed him. The fact is Bird got outplayed twice. What did Bird do in 1982 then have a poor performance in the playoffs. Magic averaged a near triple double and then won finals MVP

I'm not really concerned with Magic's stats in the '84 finals, my claim was purely that Bird played better than him. Bird didn't have what I'd call bad stats in any of his finals vs the Lakers either.

Why do you keep repeating Magic's near triple double? It may seem more significant, and it's a cooler stat line, but it doesn't make you a better player.

Magic won a title, but that doesn't automatically make him better. The best player isn't always on a championship team. Moses Malone was the best player in '82, yet he lost in the first round best of 3 mini-series. Kareem was either the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league, right there with Bird.

We're not talking about '87-'91 Magic here, or '84-'86 Magic for that matter. We're talking about Magic in his 3rd year at 22 years old. A great player already, top 5 in the league, imo, but he still had a lot to add to his game.

You can list his near triple double all you want, but it doesn't mean as much to me as watching '82 Laker games and simply seeing that while he was great in transition, he wasn't a dominant half court player yet. That means a lot to me, and it's why watching the games will always help more than stats.

[Pointguard]

Yeah, Bird was already getting talk of being the best player of all time by '82. I don't agree with it at all, but he was better than Magic.

As I said, Moses Malone had a historically dominant '82 season which I covered here. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272312

And Bird, who struggled with injuries and even came off the bench for a significant stretch because of thst led Boston to 63 wins, was selected to the all-defensive second team and was still almost voted MVP.

Moses had 40 first place votes and 507 points overall, Bird had 20 first place votes and 456 points overall. Nobody else was close.

But outside of just listing accomplishments and playing paper basketball(which is the only type of case I've seen made for '82 Magic), Larry's skill set was just far above Magic's at that point. Their impact was closer than skill sets, but Larry's vastly superior half court game matters to me.


Who was the better playoff performer? Whose level of play went down considerably the bigger the games got their first four years? Whose level of play got better the bigger the games got their first 4 years? Who was the better clutch player til that point? You need paper for that? In 1982 the league was very excited about Bird looking like he was as ready, and when Magic got caught up in that coach mess the league needed somebody to concentrate on because it had definitely built up some momentum with Magic and Bird. Malone wasn't the man you could turn to - and Bird was ripe. Otherwise, Magic gets significantly more votes than he ended up with. Afterall, Magic was proven on the big stage. That MVP count was much like DH's last year - it wasn't about the play.

Bird did have a better skill set... until the playoffs hit. All of a sudden Magic shoots 100 percentage points better and even shoots a better FT percentage and they score an almost identical amount per game. Magic executes significantly better, shows better judgement of when to shoot or pass, and rebounds pretty much at the same clip. Who handled the ball better? Who passed better? Which player could play at two speeds? Whose team looked more organized under pressure? Who created more chaos for the other team?

Which player was affected by good defenses more? Which player found more ways to win?

[aau]

Yeah, Bird was already getting talk of being the best player of all time by '82. I don't agree with it at all, but he was better than Magic.

But outside of just listing accomplishments and playing paper basketball(which is the only type of case I've seen made for '82 Magic), Larry's skill set was just far above Magic's at that point. Their impact was closer than skill sets, but Larry's vastly superior half court game matters to me.

wow

what type of skillset produces

17/12/5 on .427 in 12 playoff games after avg

23/11/6 on .503 during the regular season

show me anyone that said bird was best ever in 82
and i'll show you an idiot . . . was he even the
most dominant on his team ... parish avg
21/11 on .488 and 4blk in the playoffs

17/12 on .427 = far above magic?

.

was mr. skillset his team's best player 81 finals

was he even better than the doctor in 82
H2H doc avg 27 to bird's 19 during rs
and knocked him from the playoffs

magic in 82

18/9/9/3 on .537 in rs
17/11/9/3 on .529 in ps
16/11/8/2 on .533 and fmvp

led the league in steals

but bird's halfcourt game was vastly superior

incredible

.

first 4 years

bird
rs 22/11/5/2 on 48% ........ 18/8/9 on 53%
ps 20/12/5/2 on 45% ........ 18/10/10 on 50%
fin 15/15/7/2 on 42% ......... 19/11/8 on 55% 2f

1 title / zero fmvp ................. 2 titles / 2 fmvp

the only rookie ever to be named fmvp

. . . . . . . but that bird skillset

.

.

.

.

best ever

[aau]

in 1986 a panel of 60 experts chose

kareem as the best player ever

oscar got 14 votes

bird got 4

from

red , cousy , kc jones and tommy heinsohn

[colts19]

in 1986 a panel of 60 experts chose

kareem as the best player ever

oscar got 14 votes

bird got 4

from

red , cousy , kc jones and tommy heinsohn

Not to Hi-jack the thread. This just show how underated Oscar has become on this board.

[ILLsmak]

I'm not white and I'm not black.

I'm not a Laker fan and I'm not a Celtics fan.

I don't have bias in this argument. I really like Magic, but Bird is better. I don't understand how anyone can say Magic is better.

Magic is an amazing player, but Bird has a GOAT argument. Magic doesn't...

Well, you can say I am biased because Bird is one of my favorite players ever. But that's just because while watching him I am constantly amazed at what he does. I wonder if people who don't really understand basketball realize how well Larry played the game.

-Smak

[LeBird]

I am a big Bird fan but how can you say Magic doesn't have a case?

I really love Bird's game - I wish players coming up tried to model themselves on him more than trying to imitate Jordan for example. He was a much more cerebral player, playing chess when everybody else is playing checkers. Magic has a very high basketball IQ too but IMO he lacked Bird's offensive threat when it came to shouldering the scoring himself. I also identify more with Bird's attitude towards the game too.

But amongst the top candidates for GOAT, it gets a bit subjective so I can see how people vote for Magic and he's got a fine case. Admittedly, on this forum there seems to be more clamour for Kareem than Magic from that Lakers team.

[Pointguard]

in 1986 a panel of 60 experts chose

kareem as the best player ever

oscar got 14 votes

bird got 4

from

red , cousy , kc jones and tommy heinsohn
Is this a joke?

At any rate the same people who trump up Bird are likely to be the same people that trump up Kareem. It's called downing Magic. Its the exact same agenda poster's here use.

[LeBird]

Is this a joke?

At any rate the same people who trump up Bird are likely to be the same people that trump up Kareem. It's called downing Magic. Its the exact same agenda poster's here use.

Big Bird fan here and I'd take Magic over Kareem.

[aau]

honestly

what does it really mean that kevin mchale led bird
in points and rebounds in both the 85 & 86 finals

what it means is that bird was outscored by a
teammate in 3 of his 5 final appearances

81 cornbrd 17 on .568 . . . bird 15 on .419
85 mchale 26 on .598 . . . bird 23 on .449
86 mchale 26 on .573 . .. bird 24 on .482

84 bird 27 on .484 . . . . no one was close
87 bird 24 on .445 . . . . dj 21 on .481

.

bird better than magic in 85?

84 was bird's absolute best season ........ magic's 85

rs 24/10/6 on .492 mvp .................. 18/6/12 on .561
ps 27/11/6 on .524 ......................... 17/7/15 on .513
fin 27/14/3 on .484 fmvp ................. 18/6/14 on .494

.

no doubt bird's best rs was in 85

28/10/6 on .522 . . . only oscar has done that

but again , , he str8 no-showed in the finals after coming
to the aid of a friend who was talking to another guy's
girl in a bar after G3 - knocked dude out cold with
one punch - - - but injured his right index finger

.

seeing that only a few can truly understand the ultrally-unique
impact he was having , , let's contextualize magic's numbers
knowing that not even the league understood their meaning

.

using basketball reference's game and season index
(final numbers since 1985 only)

to keep it somewhat close i'll use bird's 84 avgs

enter bird's rs 24/10/6 . . . . 3 names pop up - oscar bird wilt
enter bird's ps 27/11/6 . . . . one name pops up , twice - - oscar
bird's final avg 27/14/3 . . . . 6 names pop up incl td worthy lebron

somewhat rare performances indeed . . . just not moreso than magic's

.

enter magic's rs 18/6/12 . . . one name appears , 4x - magic
enter magic's ps 17/7/15 . . . one name appears , 2x - magic
magic's final avg 18/6/14 . . . one name appears , 2x - magic

that's individual finals games - - not finals averages

.

what really blows bird away is that this wasn't
even close to magic's best performance

1987

rs 24/6/12 on .522
ps 21/7/12 on .539
fin 26/8/13 on .541

no need to index these being that no one was
even close to his more pedestrian numbers

.

but strictly for schitts n giggles
let's remove an assist from his finals average

just 3 new names pop up

jordan had 36/8/12 game in 91 finals
lebron had 26/11/13 game vs thunder
mr.bird had 29/11/12 game vs rockets

.

that's all folks

[Pointguard]

Big Bird fan here and I'd take Magic over Kareem.

You haven't posted much but from what I see of you, I never see an agenda. You are uncommonly balanced.

[KevinNYC]

Big Bird fan here and I'd take Magic over Kareem.

I think the thing with Magic Johnson is a 6'9" point guard is just so disruptive and creates crazy matchup problems. Bird used to create match-up problems on offense too, as the guys tall enough to guard him, usually weren't quick enough on the perimeter. Then if you put a smaller guy on him, he would take them inside. But this is still not nearly the matchup problems that Magic caused.

Magic was a threat to go coast-to-coast after any missed shot. Then in a half-court set, he almost always could see over or pass over the top of the defense. And once Magic's outside shot improved, he was just an offensive threat from virtually anywhere.

Magic's height and mobility allowed him to get so many easy baskets in his career. If the defense wasn't set, he could pretty much get to the rim on anyone. His FG% for his career is .520. That is pretty crazy for a point guard. Steve Nash is a crazy shooter now, but his career percentage is still under 50%. John Stockton's is .515 and he took 4 shots less per game than Magic.

Is there any top 15 point guard with a higher FG%?

[KevinNYC]

Even Penny Hardaway at 6'7" never shot .520 for a single season, let alone a career.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Who was the better playoff performer? Whose level of play went down considerably the bigger the games got their first four years? Whose level of play got better the bigger the games got their first 4 years? Who was the better clutch player til that point? You need paper for that? In 1982 the league was very excited about Bird looking like he was as ready, and when Magic got caught up in that coach mess the league needed somebody to concentrate on because it had definitely built up some momentum with Magic and Bird. Malone wasn't the man you could turn to - and Bird was ripe. Otherwise, Magic gets significantly more votes than he ended up with. Afterall, Magic was proven on the big stage. That MVP count was much like DH's last year - it wasn't about the play.

Bird did have a better skill set... until the playoffs hit. All of a sudden Magic shoots 100 percentage points better and even shoots a better FT percentage and they score an almost identical amount per game. Magic executes significantly better, shows better judgement of when to shoot or pass, and rebounds pretty much at the same clip. Who handled the ball better? Who passed better? Which player could play at two speeds? Whose team looked more organized under pressure? Who created more chaos for the other team?

Which player was affected by good defenses more? Which player found more ways to win?

Which player was the primary focus of opposing defenses? As Bill Russell said in the '82 finals "When you talk about the Lakers, you start with number 33."

Bird was playing the Kareem role if you will as the number 1 option to go along with his own brilliant passing, rebounding that was also second to none at his position and defense that was superior to Magic's.

You can praise Magic's all around game all you want, and it was great, even by his 3rd year, but Bird was also one of the great all around players who has ever played, and unlike Magic in '82, he was an excellent scorer who you could go to when you needed a basket, regardless of if you were in your half court set.


wow

Rather than quote that mess, I'm just going to say what I've always said to you. If you want me to engage in any sort of discussion with you, try writing your posts like an adult.

[LeBird]

You haven't posted much but from what I see of you, I never see an agenda. You are uncommonly balanced.

Cheers, I hope so!

[Pointguard]

I think the thing with Magic Johnson is a 6'9" point guard is just so disruptive and creates crazy matchup problems. Bird used to create match-up problems on offense too, as the guys tall enough to guard him, usually weren't quick enough on the perimeter. Then if you put a smaller guy on him, he would take them inside. But this is still not nearly the matchup problems that Magic caused.

Magic was a threat to go coast-to-coast after any missed shot. Then in a half-court set, he almost always could see over or pass over the top of the defense. And once Magic's outside shot improved, he was just an offensive threat from virtually anywhere.

Magic's height and mobility allowed him to get so many easy baskets in his career. If the defense wasn't set, he could pretty much get to the rim on anyone. His FG% for his career is .520. That is pretty crazy for a point guard. Steve Nash is a crazy shooter now, but his career percentage is still under 50%. John Stockton's is .515 and he took 4 shots less per game than Magic.

Is there any top 15 point guard with a higher FG%?
This KNYC, Magic had the best judgment of when to shoot and when not to. Along with when to dribble/lob or bounce pass/push/slow down/delay attack/create/ put pressure on, Magic was on a level by himself (Nash, Kidd and CP get props tho). He did it efficienctly and with great control. He could incorporate Kurt Rambis into the offense if he saw him not getting rebounds - and Kurt wasn't made for offense. He would make the play slightly in front of players so that his teammate would catch up to the play - this kept his teammates alert and active. Magic could beat you in the chess match and if you got too mental he would beat you athletically. The mental skill mix belonged to Magic.

There were definitely more skilled players than Magic... but there no players that knew when to use which skill better than Magic.

[aau]

Rather than quote that mess, I'm just going to say what I've always said to you. If you want me to engage in any sort of discussion with you, try writing your posts like an adult.

wow , shaq

i'm impressed . . you actually replied

wasn't expecting that . . . . . wasn't expecting you to come off like
a pompous bhitch neither , as if we've been going at it for years

not even close

you and i have had one , count it , ONE debate a long long
time ago , , about shaq being the first option and kobe
going outside the offense , , , obviously you caught
feelings as we havn't exchanged a word since

why you trying to come off as if we have , i'm not sure

just know that it's not a good look either way

either reply , or stfu and keep it pushin

like you been doin

[juju151111]

wow , shaq

i'm impressed . . you actually replied

wasn't expecting that . . . . . wasn't expecting you to come off like
a pompous bhitch neither , as if we've been going at it for years

not even close

you and i have had one , count it , ONE debate a long long
time ago , , about shaq being the first option and kobe
going outside the offense , , , obviously you caught
feelings as we havn't exchanged a word since

why you trying to come off as if we have , i'm not sure

just know that it's not a good look either way

either reply , or stfu and keep it pushin

like you been doin:lol
Shit getting real lmao

[ShaqAttack3234]

wow , shaq

i'm impressed . . you actually replied

wasn't expecting that . . . . . wasn't expecting you to come off like
a pompous bhitch neither , as if we've been going at it for years

not even close

you and i have had one , count it , ONE debate a long long
time ago , , about shaq being the first option and kobe
going outside the offense , , , obviously you caught
feelings as we havn't exchanged a word since

why you trying to come off as if we have , i'm not sure

just know that it's not a good look either way

either reply , or stfu and keep it pushin

like you been doin

Actually, I didn't even remember that particular debate. Although if you're a clown who disputes that Shaq was the 1st option too(and that's the only way I could imagine us having a debate about the "subject"), then that tells me all I need to know about your NBA knowledge, or lack thereof. The only thing memorable about you is how obnoxious and nonsensical your posting style is.

If you do have any intelligent points to be made, why don't you try composing your posts in a way that highlight them, not distract from them with this type of drivel.

Don't expect me to engage in any sort of debates with you in the future. You don't seem like much of a challenge, however, it seems that the English language is giving you all of the challenges you can handle.