The official jlauber and Wilt Chamberlain thread

[Raz]

I have been reading jlauber's posts over the years, and for a perceived homer, he does offer a lot of good history.

I have no business commenting on any basketball pre-1989. All I have watched before then is old game tapes. Ask me anything about the 90's and I'll ramble on and on for hours.

jlauber, I was wondering if you could give us some insight into your age, did you see Wilt in person, and how you formulate your posts? I know there are a lot of posters here who may be uneducated about you and they assume you copy and paste text. I'm altogether quite sure you do a lot of typing, but have sources ready for quotes etc.

I just wanted to say, that even though you're a big Wilt fan, I'm glad that you're on ISH and sharing all this history with us all.

:cheers:

Raz (Ced)

[DaHeezy]

The guy gets alot of flack for being an intellegent poster.

The people that use "in before jlauber...." are the people who can't articulate an argument so they try and strike him down by attenpting to make him look like a homer. He knows his stuff.

[Raz]

I wish we had 50 more of him that were all equally knowledgeable about past players.

[Punpun]

Oh please, the guy c/p every other post he posts.

[DaHeezy]

Oh please, the guy c/p every other post he posts.


As long as he's recycling his own material, what's the big deal? The guy does his homework, he comes up with great conclusions, and those are his ideas. If the argument fits the discussion why not copy and paste? No need to rewrite something he's already written.

[ripthekik]

I agree. He goes into trolling topics and actually still makes a serious and good response. Gotta give props to that.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I have been reading jlauber's posts over the years, and for a perceived homer, he does offer a lot of good history.

I have no business commenting on any basketball pre-1989. All I have watched before then is old game tapes. Ask me anything about the 90's and I'll ramble on and on for hours.

jlauber, I was wondering if you could give us some insight into your age, did you see Wilt in person, and how you formulate your posts? I know there are a lot of posters here who may be uneducated about you and they assume you copy and paste text. I'm altogether quite sure you do a lot of typing, but have sources ready for quotes etc.

I just wanted to say, that even though you're a big Wilt fan, I'm glad that you're on ISH and sharing all this history with us all.

:cheers:

Raz (Ced)


Im pretty sure they have online dating sites. Maybe you will have more luck with one of those.

[Raz]

Oh please, the guy c/p every other post he posts.

Wait for him to reply before bashing. You're one of the reasons people would choose not to post here.

[Psileas]

I wish we had 50 more of him that were all equally knowledgeable about past players.

Imagine 50 Jlaubers going at each other in the same thread. :D
System/board collapse?

[Raz]

Imagine 50 Jlaubers going at each other in the same thread. :D
System/board collapse?

It would be great. I wish we had a version of jlauber that was a Bill Russell expert, maybe Bill Simmons' dad if someone taught him how to use the internet. It would be great if we had one for every major player from past eras. Even for the 90's, we wouldn't have idiots claiming Griffin to be better than a guy like Shawn Kemp. We need a jlauber dedicated to Shawn Kemp, and protecting his legacy (actually, he probably has enough illegitimate legacies floating around out there).

What I'm trying to get at is that a lot of "homers" are really good for the board. They often have great opinions, although slightly biased, and they help balance the board. Although I'm sure we could do with less uneducated Heat homers, Laker homers, Knicks homers, Bulls homers, Clippers homers and Celtic homers.

I wish we had posters dedicated to the following guys:
-Jeff Hornacek
-Elden Campbell
-Nate Thurmond
-Bob Pettit
-Jo Jo White
-Sidney Moncrief
-Bobby Jones
and many more!

[LAClipsFan33]

Bob Pettit


This is one guy who was apparently a really great player that I know pretty much nothing about. It would be interesting to get a first hand account of his game

[millwad]

The guy never really saw Wilt play, this is the same guy who changed his mind regarding Wilt and his era just a couple of years ago and he did it over some youtube-footage and quotes.

He says that he's 57 years old and that he remembers 40 year old games in detail but this is the same guy who used to write that Wilt's competition was weak which he later changed his mind about and suddenly Wilt played in the best era...

Jlauber got exposed a long time ago, can't believe that people still find him credible on this board.

Just check this out;

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

[PistolPete44]

This is one guy who was apparently a really great player that I know pretty much nothing about. It would be interesting to get a first hand account of his game
Dude showed up in the finals and killed russell :bowdown:

[LAClipsFan33]

Dude showed up in the finals and killed russell :bowdown:

I've heard some, but footage is very limited. All accounts I've heard were that he was real nice

[Raz]

Jlauber got exposed a long time ago, can't believe that people still find him credible on this board.

Just check this out;

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

His quotes are taken completely out of context. He's admitting the athletes are better now days, but I think people need to take into consideration he wouldn't be taking improved training methods, longer practice times, and sports evolution into consideration when he made those posts.

I would not call that being exposed. Being exposed is finding out a poster is 14.

[DKLaker]

I have been reading jlauber's posts over the years, and for a perceived homer, he does offer a lot of good history.

I have no business commenting on any basketball pre-1989. All I have watched before then is old game tapes. Ask me anything about the 90's and I'll ramble on and on for hours.

jlauber, I was wondering if you could give us some insight into your age, did you see Wilt in person, and how you formulate your posts? I know there are a lot of posters here who may be uneducated about you and they assume you copy and paste text. I'm altogether quite sure you do a lot of typing, but have sources ready for quotes etc.

I just wanted to say, that even though you're a big Wilt fan, I'm glad that you're on ISH and sharing all this history with us all.

:cheers:

Raz (Ced)


jlauber does hit on some very good points and does his research but by some of the comments he's made I don't think he ever saw him play during his career......I could be wrong :confusedshrug:

I am a Wilt fan and have joined jlauber in defending against the bashers.
My basketball viewership began in 1960 when the Lakers first moved to LA, my dad bought season tickets and we would stay around after to get autographs, it was extremely easy back then. I'm more of a Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Gail Goodrich fan than a Wilt fan, hey they were in LA first.
My hatred of the Celtics dates back to those days......they ruined my childhood :cry:
Because of those days I never wear green.
It's been good to finally get some revenge with Magic & Kobe.

I can tell you, the sensational.....seemingly impossible stories of Wilt are true, just like jlauber says.

[PistolPete44]

jlauber does hit on some very good points and does his research but by some of the comments he's made I don't think he ever saw him play during his career......I could be wrong :confusedshrug:

I am a Wilt fan and have joined jlauber in defending against the bashers.
My basketball viewership began in 1960 when the Lakers first moved to LA, my dad bought season tickets and we would stay around after to get autographs, it was extremely easy back then. I'm more of a Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Gail Goodrich fan than a Wilt fan, hey they were in LA first.
My hatred of the Celtics dates back to those days......they ruined my childhood :cry:
Because of those days I never wear green.
It's been good to finally get some revenge with Magic & Kobe.

I can tell you, the sensational.....seemingly impossible stories of Wilt are true, just like jlauber says.
many of them are actually reasonable, for example playground legend blocking his finger roll then got dunked 10 times , Gus Johnson's shoulder, his leaping ability, his strength ( he has to stand behind the FT line to shoot, showing how strong he is )

[millwad]

His quotes are taken completely out of context. He's admitting the athletes are better now days, but I think people need to take into consideration he wouldn't be taking improved training methods, longer practice times, and sports evolution into consideration when he made those posts.

I would not call that being exposed. Being exposed is finding out a poster is 14.

No, they're not.


Originally Posted by jlauber
“not to diminish guys like Russell and West, two great defenders...but defense back then was nowhere near as good as it is today.”

Going from that to calling todays defensive era a really weak one compared to Wilt's is not taking anything out it's context.



Originally Posted by jlauber
“I know that this is getting away from the original post some, but most people tend to diminish Wilt's accomplishments because he was so much bigger, taller, stronger, and more athletic than his opposing centers. And it is true, that when Wilt was scoring 50 ppg, it was Russell at 6-9 and Bellamy at 6-11, and the rest were pretty much 6-8 or 6-9 "stiffs."

Going from that to calling Wilt's era the greatest center era, that is a huge difference.


Originally Posted by jlauber “I know both you and I will get some flak from "old-timers" about how great some of them were . . . , but realistically, todays basketball players, although many lacking in fundamental skills, are far superior to the players of the 60's.”

Going from that to calling Wilt's era just as good as today's, that's a huge difference.


Originally Posted by jlauber
“My personal opinion on athletics today is that, yes, today's athletes are generally bigger, stronger, faster, better trained, and better fed than those of 20 years ago or more.”

Nowadays he'll tell you the direct opposite and he "proves" it with quotes from eye-witnesses.

It's not taken out of context, not at all, he changed his mind about Wilt and his era more than 40 years after those games were played. I don't know why you're defending him so much, he's not even a credible poster. He uses the most silly sources just to make Wilt look greater.

This is the same guy who used CavaliersFTW mistyped youtube-comment as a source..
Don't believe me? Ask CavaliersFTW.. :facepalm

[Raz]

I am a Wilt fan and have joined jlauber in defending against the bashers.
My basketball viewership began in 1960 when the Lakers first moved to LA, my dad bought season tickets and we would stay around after to get autographs, it was extremely easy back then.

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? It's great to hear from an experienced NBA viewer! I'd love to see your all-time Lakers 15.

[KG215]

His quotes are taken completely out of context. He's admitting the athletes are better now days, but I think people need to take into consideration he wouldn't be taking improved training methods, longer practice times, and sports evolution into consideration when he made those posts.

I would not call that being exposed. Being exposed is finding out a poster is 14.

I'd have to see the rest of the thread or see jlauber explain himself but, if that thread legit, then he absolutely got exposed.

[Raz]

It's not taken out of context, not at all, he changed his mind about Wilt and his era more than 40 years after those games were played. I don't know why you're defending him so much, he's not even a credible poster. He uses the most silly sources just to make Wilt look greater.

He provides statistical evidence and reports that I would never even think to look for. He compiles so much information it truly is mind-boggling.

Just looking at defensive ratings for those historical games, as well as the pace, it's easy to see that defense wasn't as advanced as it is today. Most teams were looking to play a fast break style of basketball after Russell came on the scene.

You're calling jlauber out for changing his opinion? I don't see how he changed his opinion. I think what happened is jlauber commenting on how defense was worse back then due to pace. I think defensive talent was still there, and I don't think he is suggesting that guys like David Robinson are on par with Nate Thurmond defensively.



This is the same guy who used CavaliersFTW mistyped youtube-comment as a source... :facepalm

We all make mistakes. I don't see how it makes him any less credible.

[DKLaker]

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? It's great to hear from an experienced NBA viewer! I'd love to see your all-time Lakers 15.

With apologies, I never tell my age......but you get a good idea.....just say OLD :oldlol:

I won't do a top 15 in order, It's like picking between your kids, I love them all except 1;

Magic = Nicest person on earth
Kobe = Cool and smooth, also nice. I was at the "81" game!!!
Jerry West = Mr. Laker
Chick Hearn = Never played but for me had more impact than everyone combined
Elgin Baylor = Kobe before there was Kobe
Goodrich = Lights out
Jamaal Wilkes = Silent assassin
Michael Cooper = Everything you need off the bench
Adrian Dantley = size never mattered, he worked and dominated
Horry = Lived for the moment
DFish = Lived to break opponents hearts, as nice as Magic
Wilt = Greatness/Coolness/ Dominance
Worthy = Big Game!!!!
Nick Van Exel = Cocky but clutch!!!
KAJ = Awesome player but biggest A-Hole to ever wear a sports uniform.....anywhere!!!

Left out plenty other of my faves.

I've met and talked to all but about 4-5 Lakers from 1960-2012.

[Raz]

I'd have to see the rest of the thread or see jlauber explain himself but, if that thread legit, then he absolutely got exposed.

No way he got exposed.

I'd need to see him post first. I can't stand threads where someone takes snippets of a poster's comments and tries to make a story arc out of them.

[millwad]

No way he got exposed.

I'd need to see him post first. I can't stand threads where someone takes snippets of a poster's comments and tries to make a story arc out of them.

Again, it's not snippets, it's direct opposite thoughts to the ones he have today. This is the same guy who claims he remember specific details a la 40 year old games but still he changed his mind completely over youtube videos and quotes.

I don't know why you are defending him so much, he's not a credible poster and he is crazy biased. This is always the story with new members on this board, you don't know anything about the guy and what he's been up to but his wall of text and stats make you believe that he really know what he's talking about.

[KG215]

No way he got exposed.

I'd need to see him post first. I can't stand threads where someone takes snippets of a poster's comments and tries to make a story arc out of them.

Right, that's why I said I'd have to see the rest of the thread or jlauber explain, but if those posts aren't taken out of context, and he really said those things, then he got exposed.

[Raz]

With apologies, I never tell my age......but you get a good idea.....just say OLD :oldlol:

:cheers:
Well let's see that Lakers 15!

I could try and put a Celtics team together - but I have only seen classic games of the 60's, 70's and 80's Celtics.

I guess my team would look like:
CT: Bill Russell/ Dave Cowens/ Robert Parish
PF: Kevin McHale/ Tommy Heinsohn/ Kevin Garnett
SF: Larry Bird/ Paul Pierce/ Reggie Lewis
SG: John Havlicek/ Sam Jones/ Bill Sharman/ Dennis Johnson
PG: Bob Cousy/ Jo Jo White/ Rajon Rondo

It ended up being 16 guys. That will have to do.

I know DJ and Hondo are out of position, I was just trying to go 3 deep at each, and DJ can guard SG, and Hondo was 6'5" and played SG half the time on the court.

I know I could have picked someone over Reggie Lewis - but he was my favorite Celtic ever. If he hadn't of died, his career may have warranted the selection.

[Asukal]

No way he got exposed.

I'd need to see him post first. I can't stand threads where someone takes snippets of a poster's comments and tries to make a story arc out of them.

So let's just pretend he didn't post those comments a few years back? :rolleyes:

Because according to you, he must've been on drugs when he posted those. :roll:

[Raz]

Again, it's not snippets, it's direct opposite thoughts to the ones he have today. This is the same guy who claims he remember specific details a la 40 year old games but still he changed his mind completely over youtube videos and quotes.

I don't know why you are defending him so much, he's not a credible poster and he is crazy biased.

One question for you then. Do you think ISH would be better off without jlauber?

If you answer yes, I'll know not to take you seriously. This isn't a thread to start arguments, or to try and dig at one poster. I like the guy, and I enjoy how much he puts into his posts. I'm getting a little sick of these online attempts to try and discredit posters.

[millwad]

One question for you then. Do you think ISH would be better off without jlauber?

If you answer yes, I'll know not to take you seriously. This isn't a thread to start arguments, or to try and dig at one poster. I like the guy, and I enjoy how much he puts into his posts. I'm getting a little sick of these online attempts to try and discredit posters.

This is a forum, it's open for everyone but everyone should be aware of his post history and his antics and how biased he is.

I don't discredit him, I am writing the truth about him, we always have the same stuff on ISH when new posters join and they see Jlauber's walls of text.

If you want to think a guy who uses youtube and yahoo comments as sources is a credible poster, go ahead. If you want to think a guy who spms constantly about how he remembers 40 year old games in detail but still couldn't remember how good Wilt and his era was until a few years ago is a credible poster, then go ahead.

Personally I think he's nonsense, way too biased and insecure about his love for Wilt and he uses the most worthless sources like eye-witness accounts and youtube and yahoo-comments if it fits his agenda which is hyping up Wilt like crazy.

[Raz]

I don't discredit him, I am writing the truth about him, we always have the same stuff on ISH when new posters join and they see Jlauber's walls of text.

I have been around since about 2001/02 on EZ Board. You know me, I'm Ced.



Personally I think he's nonsense, way too biased and insecure about his love for Wilt and he uses the most worthless sources like eye-witness accounts and youtube and yahoo-comments if it fits his agenda which is hyping up Wilt like crazy.

I called him a homer in the OP. But he gives us a lot of information, that we otherwise might not be privy to, because we wouldn't think to look for it.

You seem to have a clear agenda in this thread, and I appreciate your concerns, I think you are attacking a very useful and informative poster. You should turn your attentions to trolls.

[Owl]

:cheers:
Well let's see that Lakers 15!

I could try and put a Celtics team together - but I have only seen classic games of the 60's, 70's and 80's Celtics.

I guess my team would look like:
CT: Bill Russell/ Dave Cowens/ Robert Parish
PF: Kevin McHale/ Tommy Heinsohn/ Kevin Garnett
SF: Larry Bird/ Paul Pierce/ Reggie Lewis
SG: John Havlicek/ Sam Jones/ Dennis Johnson
PG: Bob Cousy/ Jo Jo White/ Rajon Rondo

I know DJ and Hondo are out of position, I was just trying to go 3 deep at each, and DJ can guard SG, and Hondo was 6'5" and played SG half the time on the court.

I know I could have picked someone over Reggie Lewis - but he was my favorite Celtic ever. If he hadn't of died, his career may have warranted the selection.
No Sharman :eek:

[DKLaker]

:cheers:
Well let's see that Lakers 15!

I could try and put a Celtics team together - but I have only seen classic games of the 60's, 70's and 80's Celtics.

I guess my team would look like:
CT: Bill Russell/ Dave Cowens/ Robert Parish
PF: Kevin McHale/ Tommy Heinsohn/ Kevin Garnett
SF: Larry Bird/ Paul Pierce/ Reggie Lewis
SG: John Havlicek/ Sam Jones/ Dennis Johnson
PG: Bob Cousy/ Jo Jo White/ Rajon Rondo

I know DJ and Hondo are out of position, I was just trying to go 3 deep at each, and DJ can guard SG, and Hondo was 6'5" and played SG half the time on the court.

I know I could have picked someone over Reggie Lewis - but he was my favorite Celtic ever. If he hadn't of died, his career may have warranted the selection.

I edited my earlier post to put in my fave 15, not in order.....mainly from an enjoyment factor.

[Punpun]

Wait for him to reply before bashing. You're one of the reasons people would choose not to post here.

Resorting to namecalling when all I did was point out a known fact ? Way to go Raz.

:yaohappy:

[Punpun]

Ps : Don't take it personally but I've never seen such an attention whore like you. Every three post you feel the need to remind people you are Ced and give every single name you posted with.

[Raz]

Resorting to namecalling when all I did was point out a known fact ? Way to go Raz.

:yaohappy:

I don't see where I called you a name in my post.

[no pun intended]

I don't see where I called you a name in my post.
I don't either. lol.

[Raz]

Ps : Don't take it personally but I've never seen such an attention whore like you. Every three post you feel the need to remind people you are Ced and give every single name you posted with.

Nope. I was asked a couple of times in PMs. So I thought I would make it clear. People know the poster Ced, because I had been around for such a long time - which has a lot to do with credibility.

[Punpun]

I don't see where I called you a name in my post.
>You're the reason people would not like posting here

This is as passive-agressive as it gets. Just because I posted a known and accepted fact that not even Jlaube tries to refutate as he admits it himself.

What did you do ? You went all passive-aggresive on me. Or in otehr words resorted to namecalling.

THought you would make it clear ? You did it again on this thread.

Ps : Credibility because age is a logical fallacy by the way. Or in otehr words, doesn't add any credibility. Look it up.

[Raz]

What did you do ? You went all passive-aggresive on me. Or in otehr words resorted to namecalling.


That's not name calling - you yourself have called yourself a troll and a homer before. You seem very upset, so sorry to you Captain Intelligence.

I will not get into back and forward posts with you - that's a waste of my time. I don't have extended conversations with posters such as yourself.

[Punpun]

Haha, way to prove me right. :applause:

[Raz]

I edited my earlier post to put in my fave 15, not in order.....mainly from an enjoyment factor.

Looks great. Nice giving props to Chick Hearn, and to Van Exel - he was part of the only Lakers team I ever liked.
Divac, Campbell, Ceballos, Jones, Van Exel. I loved that starting 5.

[ThaRegul8r]

Jlauber got exposed a long time ago, can't believe that people still find him credible on this board.

Just check this out;

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

His quotes are taken completely out of context.

As the guy who wrote the post, no they were not. The entire conversation only reinforces what was said, and makes it looks even worse.

But it annoys me that some Johnny-come-lately would come after the fact and comment on something 1)that didn't even involve him; and 2)he knows nothing about, in the process also casting aspersions on my integrity. The mistake was made of challenging the wrong person, and as a result there were consequences. For that I do not apologize. But as that was in the past, until the same mistake is repeated (which I doubt it will), then I have no reason to revisit the past, as it was strictly between him and I. So--and I'll say this as politely as I can--stay out of what does not concern you.

[ThaRegul8r]

I wish we had 50 more of him that were all equally knowledgeable about past players.

Unfortunately, there aren't many people knowledgeable about the past greats of the sports. Many think that nothing of importance happened before they were born and started watching the game, and embark on smear campaigns against past players in order to make their chosen favorite player look good. People can never just appreciate greatness when and wherever it is, but have agendas which must be fulfilled.

The funny thing is when some people whine and complete about the "hate" their favorite player receive, yet have no problem with "hating" on past players who aren't covered by the agenda.

[ThaRegul8r]

I wish we had posters dedicated to the following guys:
...
-Nate Thurmond

I have attempted to discuss Nate Thurmond in the past, but on every occasion without exception, the thread was derailed. Because of my disgust with this board, I no longer discuss past players here. IMO this board is a lost cause, and not worth wasting my time with trying to educate people about the past, since "most people" here don't give a damn about anyone not covered by their respective agendas. And the lack of moderation allows trolls to run wild. There's no order.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

It's hard to quantify what Wilt did in today's terms because his numbers were so obscene. I do belive that the game has improved since the 50s and 60s but I don't think "The Big Dipper" would have any trouble today against guys like Howard and Bynum.

jlauber does bring the fact to back up his opinions. Respect to him.

[fpliii]

I don't have any problems with jlauber. He seems largely reasonable as long as you don't take a strong stance on some of the major guys from the era.

I'm not on the same page as him with Wilt, but I think he has a good idea of what he's talking about.

[Raz]

I have attempted to discuss Nate Thurmond in the past, but on every occasion without exception, the thread was derailed. Because of my disgust with this board, I no longer discuss past players here. IMO this board is a lost cause, and not worth wasting my time with trying to educate people about the past, since "most people" here don't give a damn about anyone not covered by their respective agendas. And the lack of moderation allows trolls to run wild. There's no order.

I agree with you completely. Mods really need to take care of the OP is a ******* guys, the Did Not Read guys and people that add absolutely nothing to conversations.

I'm going to scale back to lurker, and occasional poster. This place has definitely declined.

[jlauber]

The guy never really saw Wilt play, this is the same guy who changed his mind regarding Wilt and his era just a couple of years ago and he did it over some youtube-footage and quotes.

He says that he's 57 years old and that he remembers 40 year old games in detail but this is the same guy who used to write that Wilt's competition was weak which he later changed his mind about and suddenly Wilt played in the best era...

Jlauber got exposed a long time ago, can't believe that people still find him credible on this board.

Just check this out;

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

Dickwad continually brings this up even though I have addressed it MANY times. And I will again.

But first, let's acknowledge Dickwad's creditibility.

One of Fecal9's very few intelligent posts brought up the FACT that a 38-39 year old Kareem just MURDERED a HELPLESS 23 year old Hakeem. It was just staggering. A 38-39 Kareem, who could barely play 30 mpg, and who could barely leap (only getting 6 rpg) was able to score AT WILL against Hakeem.

I have said it before, but I seriously doubt that you will ever find a string of 10 STRAIGHT H2H games in which an all-time great just CRUSHED another all-time great, like a 38-39 year old Kareem did to a Hakeem, whose averages in those seasons were on par with a supposed peak Hakeem (don't take my word for it....look them up, per mpg, they were as good as any 90's Hakeem.) 32 ppg on, get this... .630 shooting. Which included THREE games of 40+ points, and on staggering FG%'s (40 points on 16-29, 43 points on 16-24 shooting, and 46 points, in only 37 minutes, and on 21-30 shooting.) The fact was, Hakeem was HEMMORAGING when faced with an old Kareem.

Which brings me to two points. One, Kareem was "the Bridge"...the player who played in the NBA in 1969, and who retired from the NBA in 1989. His career was one year short of spanning FOUR decades. Here was a Kareem, a PRIME Kareem, who was, by ALL ACCOUNTS, outplayed by a 34 and 35 year old Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee, and at the twillight of his career. A Chamberlain who not only held a PRIME Kareem to .464 shooting in 28 career H2H games, but who held him down to .434 shooting in their LAST TEN H2H games. In fact, in the last FOUR pivotal games of the '72 WCF's, Chamberlain reduced Kareem to a .414 shooter. AND, those like myself, who saw EVERY game of that series, would attest, that even the shots Kareem made were awful looking. Wilt not only repeatedly blocked the "unblockable" sky hook, his fingertips were nearly grazing almost EVERY shot that Kareem took. And, while a much older Kareem had his skyhook blocked later in his career, it was always in his hand when it was blocked. An OLD Wilt, at 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee, was blocking the skyhoo at it's APEX.

Furthermore, a PRIME Kareem who had a TOTAL of SEVEN 30+ point games, and with a HIGH game of 34 points, in 43 H2H games against an older, and declining Thurmond. Think about that...a geriatric Kareem had SIX 30+ point games, at ages 38 and 39, against a near prime Hakeem, and in only TEN H2H's (and ALL on just mind-numbing efficiencies.) And yet, in 43 H2H's against a declining Nate...SEVEN. In fact, Nate held Kareem to SEVEN games UNDER 20 points in those 43 games. Even more shocking, was that the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence suggests that Kareem may not have even shot .430 against Thurmond in those 43 H2H's. He had a KNOWN three straight playoff series of .486, .405 (in a series in which Thurmond outscored and outshot him), and .428. Oh, and BTW, a 38-42 year old Kareem not only outscored Hakeem in their 23 career H2H's, he outshot him by an astonishing .610 to .512 margin (and keep in mind that Kareem couldn't guard his grandmother at those ages, either.)

All of which is interesting. Here was a Kareem just PLASTERING not only Hakeem, and at will, but in the same week he was embarrassing Hakeem with that 46 point game, a 39 year old Kareem outscored Patrick Ewing by a 40-9 margin, in a game in which he outshot Patrick, 15-22 to 3-17!

So what you ask? Kareem never faced a PRIME Chamberlain. A PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain who had an entire SEASON, and in nine H2H games, of AVERAGING 40.1 ppg against HOFer Willis Reed. Included in those nine games were games in which Wilt outscored Reed by margins of 41-9, 52-23, and a mind-boggling 58-28 beatdown.

Oh, and back to the TEN STRAIGHT GAMES in which a 38-39 year old Kareem just BURIED Hakeem. The only as impressive run as there has been in NBA history, was a string of TWENTY (yes 20) STRAIGHT GAMES in which Chamberlain AVERAGED 48.2 ppg against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy. Included in that amazing stretch, were FOUR games of 60+ points, and a HIGH game of 73 points (on 29-48 shooting, and along with 36 rebounds.)

And, a PRIME "scoring" Wilt only faced Thurmond in about a dozen games. After his 65-66 season, Wilt dramatically cut back his shooting. And, in 11 STRAIGHT games, from their last H2H in 64-65, through nine H2H's in 65-66, and even their first encounter in 66-67, Wilt AVERAGED 30 ppg against Thurmond. And he had nearly as many 30+ point games, SIX, in those 11 games, as Kareem did, seven, in his 43 H2H's against Thurmond. Included in that run were games of 30 (their first game in the '66-67 season, when Wilt's coach asked Wilt to take it to Nate in the second half...and he responded with 24 points in that half), 33, 34, 34, 38, and 45. And, Wilt was outscoring Nate by margins of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and even 45-13. Once again, a PRIME Kareem's HIGH game against Nate? 34 points.

Not only that, but in their known H2H FG%'s, Wilt was BLOWING Thurmond away. Interesting too, was that Kareem, in his three straight playoff series against Thurmond, could only shot .486, .428, and a HORRID .405. And yet, Wilt also faced Thurmond in three playoff series, and outshot him by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .392; and an unfathomable (especially against Thurmond) margin of .560 to .343 in the '67 Finals (in a season in which Thurmond had his highest MVP voting...second, and behind Wilt.)

And, Wilt, in his 68-69 season, and in a season in which he hardly shot the ball, hung TWO games of 60+ point games (including a 66 point game, on 29-35 shooting, which the all-time most efficient 60+ point game in NBA history.)

What is the significance of all of the above? Kareem joined the NBA the very next season after Wilt's last two 60+ point games. And he faced the SAME centers that Wilt destroyed in those 60 point games...and never approached those numbers.

In fact, Kareem would face MANY of the SAME centers that a PRIME Chamberlain just annihilated. Where were Kareem's multiple 50 point games against Reed? Where were his multiple 60 point games against Bellamy? Where were his 38 and 45 point explosions against Thurmond? Hell, where was his 72 point game (as well as other 60 point games) against LeRoy Ellis? Where was his 60 point game against Dierking? Or his 66 point game against Fox? Or, how about this...where was Kareem's 100 point game against Imhoff?

The fact was, Kareem never came with the other side of the Galaxy at dominating the SAME centers that a PRIME Chamberlain just slaughtered. Kareem's career HIGH game, in 20 years, was a 55 point game. Chamberlain had 32 of 60+, and in only 14 seasons.

Another interesting point, as well. 6-11 265 lb. Bob Lanier joined the NBA in the '71 season. Chamberlain would face Lanier in TEN STRAIGHT games, and in his LAST two seasons, and in which Wilt AVERAGED 24.5 ppg on, get this... .750 shooting! Lanier would battle Kareem on nearly even terms throughout the 70's. As would Artis Gilmore.

Gilmore is another interesting case. I haven't been able to determine if Hakeem guarded him in their TEN H2H games in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, but in any case, Gilmore was, BY FAR AND AWAY, the BEST player on the floor in those TEN STRAIGHT GAMES. And, the boxscore has the two lined up in every one. In any case, in those TEN STRAIGHT H2H's, Gilmore dramatically outscored and outshot Hakeem. In fact, a 35-36 year old Gilmore AVERAGED 23.7 ppg, on, get this... .677 shooting in those games.

We KNOW that Hakeem TRIED to defend Kareem in those 10 STRAIGHT GAMES in the 84-85 season, and there is a strong possibility that he also TRIED to guard Gilmore in those other TEN STRAIGHT GAMES. If, indeed Hakeem guarded both, he was arguably the WORST defensive center in the NBA in those two seasons. Neither Kareem, nor Gilmore, came close to those numbers against the rest of the NBA in those years.

Continued...

[DKLaker]

Very solid jlauber :applause: :applause: :applause:

Hey, do me a favor, please post comparisons of how Wilt and Kareem did against Wes Unseld. I used to get pissed off at Unseld outplaying Kareem, I wasn't into stats back then so your research has made me curious.

[DKLaker]

Looks great. Nice giving props to Chick Hearn, and to Van Exel - he was part of the only Lakers team I ever liked.
Divac, Campbell, Ceballos, Jones, Van Exel. I loved that starting 5.

Thanks, yeah that 5 was fun to watch for sure.

We Lakers and Celtic fans have been blessed!!!!
Your 15 are :bowdown: I have to respect them.

Don't let the trolls get you down, there are plenty of good people on here that appreciate you.

[jlauber]

Continuing...

Now, the previous post brings me back to Dickwad's "credibilty." After I researched those Kareem-Hakeem H2H's, and back in around 2008, or so, I completely changed my mind on just how much better the newer generation of athletes were, as compared to those of even the 60's.

In any case, here was an OLD Chamberlain, and in the '71 season, and in TEN STRAIGHT GAMES, and against a PRIME Kareem, and on a surgically repaired knee, literally matching Kareem's points, while significantly outshooting and outrebounding him. Not only that, but in their one H2H before Wilt shredded his knee, he just ABUSED Kareem in EVERY facet of the game. He outscored Kareem, 25-23; outrebounded Kareem, 25-20; outassisted Kareem, 5-2; outblocked Kareem, 3-2 (and as Julizaver pointed out...in that first game, game recaps had Wilt with a block on a skyhook); and outshot Kareem by a 9-14 to 9-21 margin (.643 to .429.)

In that post-season, Chamberlain performed so brilliantly, that as he left the floor in the last minute of the last game, the crowd arose and gave him a standing ovation. Oh, and BTW, the game was played in MILWAUKEE.

In the very next season's WCF's, Wilt by ALL ACCOUNTS, outplayed Kareem. Now, Dickwad challenged me on that, and I produced article and link-after-link which claimed that Wilt not only outplayed Kareem, some, like Time Magazine, even went so far as to declare Wilt with a "DECISIVE WIN." BTW, where were Dickwad's sources to the contrary? That's right...as always, he couldn't produce ANY.

Even in Wilt's LAST season, and in six H2H regular season games, Wilt held Kareem to .450 shooting, while shooting a mind-boggling .737 himself. Included was even a game in which a 36 year old Wilt outscored the 26 year old Kareem, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.

Ok, that brings us back to Dickwad's "credibilty." When I brought up those Wilt-Kareem H2H's, and then the Kareem-Hakeem H2H's, Dickwad immediately jumped in and claimed that he had WATCHED all of the Kareem-Hakeem H2H's, and that Hakeem did NOT guard Kareem. Well, as always, he was proven to be a LIAR. I produced a VIDEO of a game in the 84-85 season in which Kareem dumped 40 points on him. Then, thanks to PHILA, a newspaper recap of the game in which Kareem poured in 46 points, and in only 37 minutes. The writer ripped the Houston coach for allowing the massacre, too...and claimed that had Kareem played more minutes, he likely would have shattered his career high game of 55 points (all at age 39!)

Well, the Rocket's coach finally relented, and yanked the helpless Hakeem off of Kareem in the '86 WCF's, and with a longer and more athletic Sampson finally guarding Kareem, (and with double team help from Hakeem) Kareem could "only" average 27 ppg on .496 shooting. Of course, it was NOT Hakeem who was the primary defender, or else the bloodshot from the regular season would have carried over into that series.

In any case, Dickwad was PROVEN to be a LIAR. Which would be just one of MANY times that I nailed him here. Oh, and before Dickwad mentions that Hakeem outcored Kareem in that series (31-27 ppg), keep in mind that Hakeem was 23, and Kareem, who was 39. I have long asked Dickwad what the outcome of a series between a 39 year old Hakeem, and facing a 23 year Kareem, who led the NBA in scoring, anchored the best team defense in the league, won the MVP, and then the FMVP...would have fared? He could only respond that Hakeem was washed up by then.

Other instances? Dickwad disputed my claim that when Hakeem was paired with 6-5 Charles Barkley, that Barkley not only outrebounded Hakeem, he outrebounded him by over FOUR rpg. Of course, that was easy to prove, and as always, Dickwas was proven to be a LIAR.

He questioned Wilt's "outside shooting" by producing ONE FT, by a Wilt late in his career, in which he clanked a FT. I produced a direct quote, from a HOF coach, which validated Wilt's early career "outside shooting." Then when Dickwad contested that view, based on lack of VIDEO footage, I then produced VIDEO FOOTAGE of a young Wilt hitting shots from up to 15-16 ft, including a JUMP SHOT from behind the FT line. Dickwad challenged that footage as a "highlight reel", and that even Mbenga could look good in limited footage. Well, thanks to CavsFan and his archived footage, I produced near full games of Wilt hitting a steady stream of shots from 12-16 ft. Even Wilt's FT SHOOTING was MUCH better in that footage (and he did hit as high as .613 early in his career...including an NBA record 28 FTs in one game.)

Dickwad challenged my take that Wilt blocked 15 of Kareem's skyhooks in the '72 WCF's. I WATCHED EVERY game of that series, and it was probably MORE. We do know that SEVERAL sources, including Charley Rosen and Robert Cherry have Wilt with AT LEAST 15 blocks, in three of those games, on Kareem shots in that series (and combined it is around 21.) Even Julizaver, who was the FIRST person to post the Kareem-Wilt H2H's, had several recaps of Wilt with a ton of blocks in that series.

Not only that, but in six of their career 28 H2H games, Wilt had a KNOWN 29 blocks on Kareem (and not including a recap with "numerous blocks." Then, he had a KNOWN block of a SKYHOOK in their FIRST game. We also have VIDEO FOOTAGE of Wilt blocking, not one, but TWO skyhooks within a matter of seconds...and both at the APEX. Given that Chamberlain had a KNOWN 30 blocks, just against Kareem, in SEVEN of their 28 H2H's...doing the math, and that would translate to 120 in 28. Even if you only go with about two per game in the other 21 H2H's, that would STILL have meant that Wilt had over 70 career blocks against Kareem...and CLEARLY, the majority would have been the "skyhook", which was Kareem's go-to shot (and BTW, why would Kareem have shot anything else against Wilt, if Wilt wasn't rountinely blocking and challenging it."

True, Dickwad did challenge ONE of my sources...CavsFan, who, at one time posted that Wilt blocked 23 skyhooks in that '72 series. However, it was NOT a "typo"...it was a blatant fabrication, plain-and-simple. CavsFan is only 25, and given the fact that virtually no footage exists from the '72 WCF's (even though EVERY game was NATIONALLY televised...and I SAW them ALL.) Still, CavsFan has the most extensive video library of Wilt, and he because of that, he has been a VALUABLE source.

And the reality is/was, you can always question "sources." I mentioned Charley Rosen. He did a book on the '72 Lakers (BTW, I either listened to, or watched EVERY game that season), and his work was exceptional. He used recaps and box scores from the LA Times. HOWEVER, in the early chapter, he CLEARLY LIED about Wilt's performance in the '69 Finals. That rubbish has been blown away. Of course, those that use Bill Simmons as some kind of "source" will also be shredded in almost any debate on the Russell-Wilt rivalry.

Dickwad then made a post claiming that Wilt was seldom double-teamed in his career. Of course, I produced ARTICLE-AFTER-ARTICLE, which clearly PROVED that Wilt was not only the most defended center in NBA history, he was the most BRUTALIZED, as well.

Dickwad challenged my take that little known Gus Johnson probably had a vertical leap as high as MJ...and back in the early 60's to boot. I produced a link in which Joey Johnson finally surpassed a KNOWN leap by Gus. Of course, Dickwad challenged Joey Johnson as a leaper. And I produced SEVERAL links crediting Joey with leaps as high as 52", and with his chin above the rim.

Dickwad challenged my take that Wilt was touching the top of the backboard. I produced TWO respected first hand accounts which validated that. However, Dickwad wanted VIDEO footage (like someone would have been following Wilt around 24 hours a day back then with a camera.) Well, guess what, CavsFan came out with a VIDEO which CLEARLY depicts Wilt's fingertips within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard (CavsFan claims it was at the top level BTW), on a leap in which he had no time to react, and in which he goes straight up (no running start), and blocks the shot with his off-hand. Of course Dickwad disputed the "angle." But, as we KNOW by now, Dickwad would have disputed the video if Chamberlain were doing backflips over the backboard.

Then, Dickwad challenged my point that Wilt, with only a couple of steps behind the FT line, could dunk a ball with a leap from behind the FT line. "Impossible!" Guess what? We now have a VIDEO interview with none other tha TEX WINTER, who claimed to have seen a HIGH SCHOOL Wilt (and not yet fully grown BTW) taking three steps from behind the line, leaping, and dunking the ball. In fact, he was so stunned that he organized a committe which would ban such "freakish activity." Of course Dickwad even challenged Winter. BUT, why would have someone, as highly respected as Winter (and Sonny Hill who claimed to have witnessed Wilt touching the top of the backboard), have gone to such an extent if there wasn't something behind the motivation?

On top of all of that...while I produced articles, links, first hand accounts, VIDEO footage, stats, logical reasoning, transitory numbers, etc...where are Dickwas's "sources?" Absolutely NOTHING. Nada. He challenges MY takes (and even he has admitted he lied about the Hakeem-Kareem H2H's), yet, he can't produce anything to CHALLENGE them. Why?

There have been many other's.

However, how about this "agenda?"

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229509&page=6


Haha, you're the same person so you should give it up too..
And yeah, if it was possible to put Bynum in a game in the 60's vs Wilt he'd without no doubt dominate Wilt..

And, ...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229509&page=12


Stop it, Bynum is better.

And, if you read those idiotic posts, he is completely SERIOUS when making those claims.

Continuing...

[Legends66NBA7]

I just did a search:

The word "Dickwad" (not counting this one, since it's just an example) is mentioned 24 times by jlauber in his 2 posts above.

Me thinks these 2 don't get along too well ?

[jlauber]

Ok, back to my "changing my mind" a few years ago (back in 2007 or before)...

For years it was a given that every generation became bigger, stronger, faster, more skilled.

I remember reading an SI article in '84 which compared the '84 Nebraska Cornhuskers to their '71 counterparts. Player-after-player were bigger and faster. The fastest '71 Husker was Johnny Rodgers, who had run a 4.5 40. The '84 team had several that could run that, including Irving Fryar who ran a 4.28.

And, in 1988, Ara Parseighian claimed that the '88 Irish would have beaten his '66 National Champs by 40 points.

However, football is the one major sport which is overwhelmingly dependent on physical size and strength. Today, we see o-linemen who average 325 lbs. We have QBs that weigh 260 lbs, and even QBs that run 4.3 40's.

But, sports like baseball and basketball are far more SKILL-dependent. If they were based solely on size or strength, and players like Hank Aaron and Willie Mays would never have been dominant HR hitters (and I'll bring up Mantle in a bit.) And, if size and athelticism were the only requirement in the NBA, then James White, Priest Lauderdale, and Javale McGee would have dominated the NBA. And, how could someone like the 6-1 150 lb Tiny Archibad average 34 ppg in a season? Or 6-5 Charles Barkley lead the league in rpg? And, think about this...how many 7-3+ players have led the NBA in rebounding (hint:...ZERO)?

Anyway...in the NFL, while size and strength have grown dramatically since the 60's, SPEED has not. In fact, there have been many players even before the mid-80's who were faster than the fastest NFL player in TODAY's NFL.

Why did I change my mind?

Continued...

[jlauber]

I have made simiar posts even before this one...but in any case, this one is from 2010...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=194899&page=3


I have been on record as saying the GENERALLY, the players of today in the three major sports (baseball, football, and basketball) are bigger, stronger, and faster. They are probably slightly more skilled as, well, because they have had previous generations of athletes from their particular sport to build upon.

However, aside from the fact that football players of today, are considerably bigger than those of 50 years ago (my god, we have 260 lb. quarterbacks today), almost every other area has, ...IMHO...only seen a SLIGHT increase.

Most uneducated posters here believe that Wilt was a stumbling frankenstein that dunked on helpless, nerdy, skinny, 6-6 white centers. Here are some interesting FACTS: One, the average starting center in Wilt's historic 1962 season was 6-10. In fact, in the following season, Wilt wasn't even the tallest player in the league (Swede Halbrook was 7-3...and barely on a roster.) The average starting center in Wilt's last season of 72-73, was 6-11. How about in 2010? 7-0. That is a whopping two inch increase in nearly 50 years. Not only that, but those that even use the height argument are overlooking,..Two, that there has never been a 7-3+ center to ever lead the league in rebounding. In fact, there have only been THREE 7-2 centers to lead the league in rebounding, in a TOTAL of FOUR seasons. If you take Wilt and his ELEVEN rebounding titles out of the discussion, there have been far more players at 6-10, or less, who have won rebounding titles. And you only need go back a few years when 6-7 Ben Wallace (that's right...6-7, NOT 6-9) won TWO rebounding titles in a row.

Ok, let's get back to my original point here, which is that the players of today are MARGINALLY better, on AVERAGE, than those of yesteryear.

If I were to tell you that a peak Babe Ruth would be a great player in TODAY's game, you, and perhaps the vast majority of this forum would probably laugh me off the board. How could that rotund, tooth-picked legged "athlete" be a GREAT player in TODAY's game?

This is where the "bridges" come in. Players like Ted Williams, Willie Mays, Henry Aaron, and Nolan Ryan.

Ted Williams is a good place to start. His career spanned FOUR decades. In his rookie season, in 1939, he batted .327 with 31 HRs. In his LAST season, in 1960, he batted .316 with 29 HRs (in only 310 ABs.) Back to his rookie season. In his rookie year, Jimmy Foxx batted .360 with 35 HRs. So, we know that Foxx was a better player, in 1939 than Williams was. And just the year before, in 1938, Foxx batted .349 with 50 HRs. In 1932 Foxx batted .364 with 58 HRs. In that same season, Ruth, at well past his prime, batted .341 with 41 HRs. And just five years prior, Ruth slugged 60 HRs.

Ok, continuing...there were pitchers that Williams faced in 1939 that Foxx faced in 1938. There were also pitchers in 1932 that Foxx faced, that also pitched to Ruth in that season.

But wait...those players played before integration. There is no way they would have accomplished those numbers against the players post-1947. Hmmm...interesting point...except that Williams batted .406 in 1941 (pre-integration), and then, in 1957, he batted .388 (with 38 HRs in 420 ABs)...or POST-integration.

In that 1957 season, Mickey Mantle batted .365 with 34 HRs. Just the year prior, in 1956, Mantle batted .356 with 52 HRs. And just the year before that, in 1955, Willie Mays hit 51 HRs. Why is that significant you ask? Those players not only faced many of the same pitchers in the decade of the 50's, they also faced pitchers who pitched in the 40's, and pitcher's who would pitch in the 60's. Incidently, I will get back to Mantle a little later, but for now, let's go with Mays. Mays had a long career. Once again, in 1955, he hit 51 HRs. Ten years later, in 1965, he hit 52. So, his great seasons lasted for many years. How about Aaron? In 1957 he hit 44 HRs. In 1973, and well past his peak, he hit 40 in 392 ABs. He faced pitchers like Robin Roberts, Warren Spahn, Don Newcombe, and many other great hurlers in the 50's. He also faced Koufax, Gibson, Marichal, and Seaver in the 60's. And, in the 70's, he faced Carlton, Palmer, and even Ryan.

Ryan is the next "bridge." He pitched for 27 years, and in FOUR decades. In the early 70's, he was clocked (by a SLOW radar gun) at 101 MPH, in the eighth inning of a game in which he had thrown 162 pitches. His very LAST pitch, in the early 90's, and on an injured arm, was clocked at 98!

BTW, I mentioned a SLOW gun. Here is an interesting article about Ryan's speed... and it might actually have been as high as 108 MPH...

http://www.efastball.com/baseball/st...major-leagues/

Oh, and BTW, how about the name of Steve Dalkowski? He never made it the major's, but he was pitching in the 1950's and 60's. Just take a moment and read this article...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Dalkowski


Quote:
Estimates of Dalkowski's top pitching speed abound. Cal Ripken Sr. guessed that he threw up to 115 miles per hour (185 km/h).[18


Back to Ryan. While we know that Ryan was a great pitcher, and for many years, he was seldom the best in his era. There were spectacular seasons turned in by Ron Guidry and Doc Gooden, among others. Furthermore, as hard as Ryan threw (and he may have been the fastes of all time), there were MANY pitchers that threw hard long before him. Koufax reportedly was clocked at 98 MPH in the mid-60's...and after he had SLOWED down his fastball to control it. Back in the 30's and 40's, Bob Feller was throwing nearly 100 MPH. And, think about this...as hard as Feller was throwing, hw didn't have the K/9 IP that many of the pitchers of today do. In other words, even with his blinding fastball, the players of his era were hitting him. Before him it was rumored that Walter Johnson was probably close to 100 MPH in the "dead ball" era.

Ok, so we have basically covered the Williams thru the Ryan eras...or from the 30's thru the 90's...and there were MANY great players. Williams was certainly among the best, but he played against guys like Aaron, Mays, and Mantle...all of whom were as great, or nearly as great.

We have covered the hard-throwers, but how about the power-hitters? Certainly the players of TODAY hit the ball much farther, right? I recall reading an article in SI about five years ago. The writer claimed that Barry Bonds' LONGEST measured HR was 490 ft. Interesting...Reggie Jackson's HR in the '71 All-Star game may have still been rising at that distance. BTW, Jackson would clear that wall in 1984. Lou Brock, of all people, hit a HR in the Polo Grounds that cleared the 505 ft. sign. Furthermore, there were many power hitters that were hitting tape measure shots back then. 6-8 250 lb. Frank Howard, Harmon Killebrew, Willie McCovey, and Willie Stargell to name just a few.

But the most powerful HR hitter of all-time? I will submit a player that was all of 5-11, and 195 lbs. Not only that, but he was hitting "tape measure" HRs from BOTH sides of the plate. In fact, the term "tape measure home runs" was coined after him.

Mickey Mantle hit MANY HRs over 500 ft.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mickey_Mantle


Quote:
Mantle also hit some of the longest home runs in Major League history. On September 10, 1960, he hit a ball left-handed that cleared the right-field roof at Tiger Stadium in Detroit and, based on where it was found, was estimated years later by historian Mark Gallagher to have traveled 643 feet (196 m). Another Mantle homer, hit right-handed off Chuck Stobbs at Griffith Stadium in Washington, D.C. on April 17, 1953, was measured by Yankees traveling secretary Red Patterson (hence the term "tape-measure home run") to have traveled 565 feet (172 m). Though it is apparent that they are actually the distances where the balls ended up after bouncing several times,[4] there is no doubt that they both landed more than 500 feet (152 m) from home plate. Mantle twice hit balls off the third-deck facade at Yankee Stadium, nearly becoming the only player (along with Negro Leagues star Josh Gibson, though Gibson's home run has never been conclusively verified) to hit a fair ball out of the stadium during a game. On May 22, 1963, against Kansas City's Bill Fischer, Mantle hit a ball that fellow players and fans claimed was still rising when it hit the 110-foot (34 m) high facade, then caromed back onto the playing field. It was later estimated by some that the ball could have traveled 620 feet (190 m) had it not been blocked by the ornate and distinctive facade. While physicists might question those estimates, on August 12, 1964, he hit one whose distance was undoubted: a center field drive that cleared the 22-foot (6.7 m) batter's eye screen, beyond the 461-foot (141 m) marker at the Stadium.




As amazing as those numbers are, how about this link...

http://www.themick.com/10homers.html

Ok, now, after all of that, is it still laughable to presume that Babe Ruth would be a GREAT player today? Incidently, Ruth reportedly swung a 42 ounce bat. Try to swing one if you can even find one. Furthermore, can you imagine what players of yesteryear could accomplish with all of the benefits of modern technology.

Now, we have covered baseball...on to football...

[jlauber]

Continuing...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=194899&page=3


I already admitted that the average football player of TODAY, is considerably bigger than those of 50+ years ago. And I will be the first to admit that the AVERAGE NFL player of today is faster than those of 20-30-40-50 years ago. However, are TODAY's football players the fastest?

Let's start with another "bridge." Darrell Green played from 1983 to 2002. At his fastest, he was clocked at 10.08 in the 100 meters. Remember that number. Now, you can dispute hand-held 40 yard times if you like, but Green had some downright ridiculous one's. There was even one at 4.09. In any case, Green won the "NFL's fastest man" competition FOUR times. Furthermore, at age 40 he was clocked eletronically at a 4.35.

How about Bo Jackson in the 80's, He was a WORLD-CLASS 60 meter man. AND, he has the fastest recorded time at the NFL combine ever, of 4.13.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bo_Jackson


Quote:
he won the 1985 Heisman Trophy, the prize annually awarded to the most outstanding collegiate football player in the United States. He also reportedly ran a hand-timed 4.13 40 yard dash, still considered the fastest verifiable 40 time at an NFL Combine.


Deion Sanders was timed at 4.18 in the 40.

Before him, there was Hershel Walker, who reportedly ran a 10.1 100 meters in the early 80's. And before him were players like Cliff Branch and Mel Gray who were running 9.2 100 yard dash times (or probably around 10.2 in the 100 meters.) Back in the 60's OJ Simpson was part of USC's STILL world-record holding 4x100 yard relay team (I know, it is a little deceptive, since there have been teams in the last few years that ran a faster 4x100 meters.) In any case, OJ was a 9.3 or 9.4 sprinter in the 100 yards. And, players like Henry Childs and Travis Williams were running 9.3's in the 60's as well.

However, the FASTEST NFL player EVER? I will submit Bob Hayes, who played in the 60's, and was a LEGITIMATE HOF NFL player. (My god, the man AVERAGED 42 yards on his 76 career TD's.) He ran a 10.0 100 meters in the mid-60's! There has NEVER been a LEGITIMATE NFL player (not some two-bit track star that got cut, but legitimate) who has run a faster 100 meters.

Furthermore, as big as the players of today are, there were huge athletes back in the 60's. Buck Buchanon was 6-9 285 lbs. Ernie Ladd was over 300 lbs. And how about Jim Brown, who was 6-2 and 230 lbs back then (and a 9.6 sprinter)?

Ok, that was a much more brief look at the football players of today, compared to those of yesteryear...

[jlauber]

Continuing (and yes, some of this is redundant)...and keep in mind this was posted in 2010...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=194899&page=4


Ok, hopefully we put some the ridiculous myths to rest about Wilt's competition. Chamberlain faced players nearly the same height, on average, that Shaq would face some 40 years later. BTW, who is generally regarded as the best center of the CURRENT NBA? It is 6-10 (or shorter) Dwight Howard. And we know that Wilt was not only taller than Howard, he was bigger, stronger, more athletic, and more skilled. Chamberlain was a high-jump champion, a long jumper, a sprinter, and was not only regarded as the strongest man in the NBA at the time, but there were those that believed him to be among the strongest men in the world at the time (most noteably Howard Cosell.)

And I will apologize up front to those who have read this take many times, but, here we go again...

We have a "bridge" in Kareem that we can compare different eras with. Kareem was the best player in the league in the 70's, no question. BUT, he struggled mightily against Thurmond and Wilt in his H2H games against each.

Thanks to Alexbre and Julizaver, we have virtually EVERY H2H game between Wilt and Thurmond. Kareem faced Nate 61 times, and Wilt 28 times. He seldom scored 30 points against Thurmond (in fact, I believe his high was around 34.) In the VAST MAJORITY of those 61 games, he didn't even shoot 50%. And there were MANY in the low 40's, and even some in the 30% range. In the '72 playoffs, Thurmond not only held Kareem to an awful .405 from the floor, he outscored and outshot him. In the '73 playoffs, Thurmond held Kareem to .428 shooting, and his Warriors stunned Kareem's heavily-favored Bucks. Even well past his prime, in the mid-70's, Kareem seldom shot close to 50% against Thurmond.

Meanwhile, in the 28 H2H games between Wilt and Kareem, Chamberlain held Abdul-Jabbar, who was a CAREER .559 shooter, to a .464 FG% (while shooting 53% himself.) In the '71 WCF's, and only a year removed from major knee surgery, and 11 years older (and well past his prime), Wilt battled Kareem to a statistical draw (in fact, the recaps actually credited Wilt with outplaying Kareem.) In the '72 WCF's, and despite being heavily outscored Wilt, by virtually every account, outplayed or even "decisively outplayed" (Time Magazine) the younger Kareem who had the BEST statistical season of his career. Wilt outrebounded Kareem, and held him to .457 shooting (and only .414 over the last four pivotal games of that six game series.) In fact, Chamberlain took over in the clinching game six, and dominated Kareem down the stretch. Then, in their last six regular games, Wilt not only outshot Kareem, .637 to .450, he even outscored him in one game, despite the fact that he had dramatically cut back his shooting late in his career. Furthermore, in their only H2H game before Wilt was injured in 1969-70 season, Chamberlain just buried Kareem in EVERY aspect. Granted Kareem was a rookie, but, to be fair to Wilt, he was considerably past his "scoring" seasons of the mid-60's, and his overwhelming seasons in '67 and '68.

Continuing, in Wilt's PRIME, he pounded Thurmond on numerous occassions. He had a game in which he outscored him 45-13, and another game with 38 points and 31 rebounds. Even in the '67 season, when his coach asked him to shoot in the second half of a game against Nate, he poured in 24 second half points (30 in all), along with 26 rebounds, and 12 blocks. In fact, in their three post-season series, Wilt shot a combined 54% to Nate's 37%, and outrebounded him in all three (and by over six rebounds a game in '73.) Chamberlain shot over 50% in all three series (with a high of .560), and Thurmond NEVER shot even 40% against Wilt, (with a low of .343.)

Why is all of that significant? Because Kareem would go on to be among the best centers in the 80's. In the '85 Finals, after a poor first game, he averaged 30 ppg over the last five games against Boston's HOF frontline, and won the MVP. He had one season in the 80's when he shot .604. He had another, at age 38, when he shot .599. And amazingly, at age 39, in the '85-86 season, he had three regular season games against Hakeem, in which he scored 35, 42, and 46 points (on 21-30 shooting.) He also added a couple of 30 point games in the post-season against him that season, as well. And, in the same season, he hung a 40 point game on Ewing, while Patrick only managed a 2-16 shooting performance against him. Incredibly, Kareem played three more seasons, all from age 40 on. In those three seasons, H2H against Hakeem, in 13 games, he outshot him, .567 to .475. And, in those three seasons, he had six games against Ewing. Ewing had a slight scoring edge of 18.8 to 16.5, but Kareem easily outshot him, .551 to .483.

We all KNOW that both Hakeem and Ewing went on to be two of the best centers of the 90's. In fact, by most accounts, Hakeem was THE best center of the 90's. And we KNOW that Hakeem battled Shaq to a draw in the '95 Finals (some would even say he "won" that battle.) And, of course, Shaq would go on to dominate the early 00's.

What does all of this mean? Well, if Shaq was the best center of the 00's, and Hakeem was the best center of the 90's, and if an aged, and well past his prime Kareem could outplay Hakeem in the 80's...just what does that say about the greats of the 60's, like Wilt and Thurmond, both of whom were well past their primes when they were giving Kareem fits? In fact, if Wilt were able to win his H2H battles with Kareem, at well past his prime, and on a surgically repaired knee, just what would have a PRIME Chamberlain done to him?

Furthermore, players like 6-9 Dave Cowens gave Kareem trouble in the 70's (even outplaying him in a game seven of the Finals.) 6-7 Wes Unseld outrebounded Kareem in the '71 Finals. Meanwhile, 6-11 Walt Bellamy, who was a force in the entire decade of the 60's (he was routinely among the top scorers and shooters) went on into the 70's, and near the end of his career, in Kareem's spectacular 71-72 season, Bellamy averaged 18.6 ppg on .545 shooting. There were other's, of course. Willis Reed, Bob Lanier, Elvin Hayes, Spencer Haywood, Bob McAdoo (who outscored Kareem in two seasons in the 70's), as well as 7-2 Artis Gilmore, who dominated the ABA, and then had MANY quality seasons in the 80's (he retired as the all-time FG% leader...and still is.)

The 60's and 70's also had players like the great Russell (once again, a world-class leaper with a wingspan of a condor), Jerry Lucas who could grab 20+ rebounds per game in a season, and still shoot from as far as 25 ft. (the "Lucas Layup"), McAdoo, who was 6-11 and could score from anywhere on the floor; Rick Barry who led the NBA in scoring in '66 at 35.6, and then 10 years later, in 74-75, averaged 30.6 ppg; Connie Hawkins, Oscar, David Thompson, Jerry West (who routinely dominated Walt Frazier); Walt Frazier, a truly great guard in the 60's and 70's; Nate Archibald (he and Oscar are the only two players to ever lead the league in ppg and apg in the same season); and thye magical Pete Maravich, who would make Jason "White Chocolate" Williams look ridiculous today.

Each decade gave us new great players, but keep in mind, most of those greats in that new decade, were playing against (and often times being outplayed) by the greats of the previous decade.

Finally, I always bring up this point. If you truly believe that the players of today are MUCH better than those of yesteryear, then give me the EXACT year in which the players became competitive with those of today. Would the Shaq of 2000 be as great today? Would the Hakeem of '95 be as great today? Would the MJ of '91 be as great today? Would the Magic of '87 be as great today? Would the Bird of '86 be as great today? Would the Moses of '83 be as great today? Would the Walton of '77 be as great today? Would the McAdoo of '75 be as great today. The Dr. J of '72? The Kareem of '72? Wilt in '67? Russell in '64? Oscar and Wilt in '62? And if not all of them, give the players that would in the years that they would. But be careful...because I will show the peers of those players in the same seasons, and BEFORE.

The bottom line? Yes, today's players are MARGINALLY better than those of the 60's. But they are not SIGNIFICANTLY better...in ANY sport. I recall reading a post here a while back in which the poster claimed that WNBA all-stars would beat the best of the NBA in the 60's. Just think about how ridiculous that statement is. Do you think the gals of the current WNBA could battle someone like Gus Williams, who was 6-6 235 lbs, and was shattering multiple backboards back then? Or a 6-8 225 lb Lucas who could not only pound them on the glass, but disgrace them all from over 20+ ft? Or 6-10 WORLD-CLASS Bill Russell? Or 6-11 Thurmond with his HUGE wingspan? Or 6-5 225 Oscar? Or Jerry West, who many consider had the perfect shooting form? Or 7-1 (or taller) Chamberlain, with his 300 lbs and reported 500 lb. bench press, along with his 40"+ vertical leap?

The same goes for a "good college team" of TODAY beating the best in the NBA in the 60's. Give me a break! The top players of the 60's would be among the best players in the NBA TODAY. And they would certainly smoke a "good college team."

[jlauber]

I have been reading jlauber's posts over the years, and for a perceived homer, he does offer a lot of good history.

I have no business commenting on any basketball pre-1989. All I have watched before then is old game tapes. Ask me anything about the 90's and I'll ramble on and on for hours.

jlauber, I was wondering if you could give us some insight into your age, did you see Wilt in person, and how you formulate your posts? I know there are a lot of posters here who may be uneducated about you and they assume you copy and paste text. I'm altogether quite sure you do a lot of typing, but have sources ready for quotes etc.

I just wanted to say, that even though you're a big Wilt fan, I'm glad that you're on ISH and sharing all this history with us all.

:cheers:

Raz (Ced)

Thank you for the kind words...

:cheers:

[jlauber]

Very solid jlauber :applause: :applause: :applause:

Hey, do me a favor, please post comparisons of how Wilt and Kareem did against Wes Unseld. I used to get pissed off at Unseld outplaying Kareem, I wasn't into stats back then so your research has made me curious.

Thanks again...

:cheers:

I am too tired to research much of it now, but Kareem got the best of Unseld in the '71 Finals (albeit, the 6-7 Unseld outrebounded him in that series.)

And, I have posted the H2H's before, but Chamberlain just murdered Unseld in the '68-69 H2H's (which is when Unseld won the ROY and MVP...including one game in which he outscored Unseld, 25-4, while outrebounding Wes, 38-9.) Then, in their first meeting the very next season, and before Wilt shredded his knee, Chamberlain dumped a 38 point game on Unseld.

[ILLsmak]

Imagine 50 Jlaubers going at each other in the same thread. :D
System/board collapse?

hahaha.

I don't mind him, though, but he does come out with some shit. He brings up the same points too often. he's like Larry the Cable guy. Good at first but then you're like... didn't he just say that?

-Smak

[Colbertnation64]

damn, jlauber catching bodies in this thread.

it's sad that idiots like millwad just can't accept the fact that guys from the 1960's were actually good players and athletic. I can't imagine being so blinded that I would deprive myself of the history of the NBA. Refusing to open up to NBA history makes you lose so much perspective and miss out on so many great players.

Keep up the good work jlauber.

[Linspired]

jlauber, not sure what you are implying... but hakeem didn't really go up against kareem too much. it was ralph sampson who guarded kareem most of the time. sampson probably wanted to challenge kareem not only because they were similar in height, but because sampson was viewed as 2nd best center in his own team. him preferring to play PF rather than center time to time also probably made him to go up against kareem more. kareem has no problem shooting over smaller hakeem even at age 38 -39. hakeem at this career was finisher & shot blocker. he didn't dominate guys with his signature dream shake just yet. i recall hakeem guarding worthy and rambis alot in 86 series. he also did guard kareem, but again kareem wasn't his main asignment.


anyway,

23 regular season H2H
hakeem 22.3/11.9/2.6 .51%
kareem 22.5/6.6/1.9 .60%

playoffs
hakeem 31/11.2/2.2/2/4block
kareem 27/6.8/3.4.8/2.4block

but again, they really didn't go at it each other. it was sampson's job to neutralize kareem, not hakeem.

if i had to guess, older and more experienced 38 kareem would still hold his own against 72 wilt especially if he was playing with worthy, magic & etc. kareem not having to do everything on his own would allow him to be efficient IMO even against great wilt. i won't even be surprised if 38 year old kareem shoots over .50% against 72 wilt. after all when you have Magic on your side, you will get some easy baskets for sure. he probably won't score more than 20pts though.

[LAClipsFan33]

jlauber has some very good info...it's not for the "Didn't Read LOL" gif trolls. So many people can't even manage to read a paragraph in a decent amount of time so they diss him because he likes to be thorough.

Nobody wants to go head to head with him because his info is so thorough...instead of these guys that talk sh*t to him deciding to come up with an argument against him just as detailed they resort to "LOL Didn't Read/OP is a fakkit" posts. Which in my eyes are just an admission of defeat.

[Linspired]

wilt blocking kareem's sky hook
http://youtu.be/EwHP04TWOps


but let's stop acting like kareem's sky hook is totally unblockable. he barely had any lift on the first block. 2nd block was impressive, but still kareem's hand was barely over the rim when the ball was released. wilt with freaky length timed it perfectly and got a clean block. looks like his finger tip is about foot over the rim meaning guys like dwight or mcgee could also block that shot if they time it right.

[Colbertnation64]

wilt blocking kareem's sky hook
http://youtu.be/EwHP04TWOps


but let's stop acting like kareem's sky hook is totally unblockable. he barely had any lift on the first block. 2nd block was impressive, but still kareem's hand was barely over the rim when the ball was released. wilt with freaky length timed it perfectly and got a clean block. looks like his finger tip is about foot over the rim meaning guys like dwight or mcgee could also block that shot if they time it right.
"if they timed it right"

have you ever played basketball before? timing is sort of everything

[Linspired]

"if they timed it right"

have you ever played basketball before? timing is sort of everything



of course shot blocking is all about timing. but people think sky hook is like a something mythical monster that no one can stop. it's not. great shot blocker could block it. it would be very difficult, but it can be done. i've seen hakeem do it. i've seen eaton do it. shot being released at 12ft is just nothing but a myth. maybe kareem did few times in his absolute peak, but his 'normal' sky hook wasn't released that high. it barely was over 10ft, and many times below the rim.

but he didn't have to. it was quick & methodical, and he guarded himself with left elbow so there is a separation between him and a defender. and later his sky hook had much more arc than before, so in compensated his lack of athleticism.

and in that 2nd block, kareem kinda rushed it and he leaned a little. maybe he learned his lesson against the great wilt. no doubt kareem's sky hook was work in progress at this point of his career.

[Deuce Bigalow]

jlauber, not sure what you are implying... but hakeem didn't really go up against kareem too much. it was ralph sampson who guarded kareem most of the time. kareem has no problem shooting over smaller hakeem even at age 38 -39. hakeem at this career was finisher & shot blocker. he didn't dominate guys with his signature dream shake just yet. i'm certain hakeem was athletic enough to guard 3 positions. i recall him guarding worthy and rambis in 86 series.




23 regular season H2H
kareem 22.5/6.6/1.9 .60%
hakeem 22.3/11.9/2.6 .51%


playoffs
kareem 31/11.2/2.2/2/4block
hakeem 27/4.4/6.8/.8/2.4block

but again, they really didn't go at it each other. it was sampson's job to neutralize kareem, not hakeem.

if i had to guess, older and more experienced 38 kareem would still hold his own against 72 wilt especially if he was playing with worthy, magic & etc. kareem not having to do everything on his own would allow him to be efficient IMO even against great wilt. i won't even be surprised if 38 year old kareem shoots over .50% against 72 wilt. after all when you have Magic on your side, you will get some easy baskets for sure. he probably won't score more than 20pts though.
4.4 rpg for a center?
:eek:

[Linspired]

4.4 rpg for a center?
:eek:


woops typo

this is correct h2h

playoffs
hakeem 31/11.2/4block .520%
kareem 27/6.8/2.4block .496%

but again his assignment really wasn't kareem.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=abdulka01

[Pointguard]

I have been reading jlauber's posts over the years, and for a perceived homer, he does offer a lot of good history.

Raz (Ced)
As in real time, those who have passion for what they do and give time to, are the engines of good conversation. He backs up his post intellectually and thoroughly, in fact, he's among the best on this site, if not the best. As a player and coach, I can tell when posters haven't played but Jlauber doesn't show a weakness in understanding player dynamics. His creative arguments are also at a high level. So yeah, he's the type of poster that you wish there were more of.

[Pointguard]

Which brings me to two points. One, Kareem was "the Bridge"...the player who played in the NBA in 1969, and who retired from the NBA in 1989. His career was one year short of spanning FOUR decades. Here was a Kareem, a PRIME Kareem, who was, by ALL ACCOUNTS, outplayed by a 34 and 35 year old Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee, and at the twillight of his career. A Chamberlain who not only held a PRIME Kareem to .464 shooting in 28 career H2H games, but who held him down to .434 shooting in their LAST TEN H2H games. In fact, in the last FOUR pivotal games of the '72 WCF's, Chamberlain reduced Kareem to a .414 shooter.

Furthermore, a PRIME Kareem who had a TOTAL of SEVEN 30+ point games, and with a HIGH game of 34 points, in 43 H2H games against an older, and declining Thurmond. Think about that...a geriatric Kareem had SIX 30+ point games, at ages 38 and 39, against a near prime Hakeem, and in only TEN H2H's (and ALL on just mind-numbing efficiencies.) And yet, in 43 H2H's against a declining Nate...SEVEN. In fact, Nate held Kareem to SEVEN games UNDER 20 points in those 43 games. Even more shocking, was that the overwhelming preponderance of the evidence suggests that Kareem may not have even shot .430 against Thurmond in those 43 H2H's. He had a KNOWN three straight playoff series of .486, .405 (in a series in which Thurmond outscored and outshot him), and .428. Oh, and BTW, a 38-42 year old Kareem not only outscored Hakeem in their 23 career H2H's, he outshot him by an astonishing .610 to .512 margin (and keep in mind that Kareem couldn't guard his grandmother at those ages, either.)

All of which is interesting. Here was a Kareem just PLASTERING not only Hakeem, and at will, but in the same week he was embarrassing Hakeem with that 46 point game, a 39 year old Kareem outscored Patrick Ewing by a 40-9 margin, in a game in which he outshot Patrick, 15-22 to 3-17!

Oh, and back to the TEN STRAIGHT GAMES in which a 38-39 year old Kareem just BURIED Hakeem. The only as impressive run as there has been in NBA history, was a string of TWENTY (yes 20) STRAIGHT GAMES in which Chamberlain AVERAGED 48.2 ppg against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy. Included in that amazing stretch, were FOUR games of 60+ points, and a HIGH game of 73 points (on 29-48 shooting, and along with 36 rebounds.)

Not only that, but in their known H2H FG%'s, Wilt was BLOWING Thurmond away. Interesting too, was that Kareem, in his three straight playoff series against Thurmond, could only shot .486, .428, and a HORRID .405. And yet, Wilt also faced Thurmond in three playoff series, and outshot him by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .392; and an unfathomable (especially against Thurmond) margin of .560 to .343 in the '67 Finals (in a season in which Thurmond had his highest MVP voting...second, and behind Wilt.)

In fact, Kareem would face MANY of the SAME centers that a PRIME Chamberlain just annihilated. Where were Kareem's multiple 50 point games against Reed? Where were his multiple 60 point games against Bellamy? Where were his 38 and 45 point explosions against Thurmond? Hell, where was his 72 point game (as well as other 60 point games) against LeRoy Ellis? Where was his 60 point game against Dierking? Or his 66 point game against Fox? Or, how about this...where was Kareem's 100 point game against Imhoff?

The fact was, Kareem never came with the other side of the Galaxy at dominating the SAME centers that a PRIME Chamberlain just slaughtered. Kareem's career HIGH game, in 20 years, was a 55 point game. Chamberlain had 32 of 60+, and in only 14 seasons.

Another interesting point, as well. 6-11 265 lb. Bob Lanier joined the NBA in the '71 season. Chamberlain would face Lanier in TEN STRAIGHT games, and in his LAST two seasons, and in which Wilt AVERAGED 24.5 ppg on, get this... .750 shooting! Lanier would battle Kareem on nearly even terms throughout the 70's. As would Artis Gilmore.

Gilmore is another interesting case. I haven't been able to determine if Hakeem guarded him in their TEN H2H games in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, but in any case, Gilmore was, BY FAR AND AWAY, the BEST player on the floor in those TEN STRAIGHT GAMES. And, the boxscore has the two lined up in every one. In any case, in those TEN STRAIGHT H2H's, Gilmore dramatically outscored and outshot Hakeem. In fact, a 35-36 year old Gilmore AVERAGED 23.7 ppg, on, get this... .677 shooting in those games.

We KNOW that Hakeem TRIED to defend Kareem in those 10 STRAIGHT GAMES in the 84-85 season, and there is a strong possibility that he also TRIED to guard Gilmore in those other TEN STRAIGHT GAMES. If, indeed Hakeem guarded both, he was arguably the WORST defensive center in the NBA in those two seasons. Neither Kareem, nor Gilmore, came close to those numbers against the rest of the NBA in those years.

These bridge arguments were among the some of the best post I've seen on this board or among all of the boards I've read. They provide context for change and how the game didn't change.

It takes courage to change your mind. The bridge argument encouraged Jlauber to change his prior thoughts on how things change. Its not being hypocritical or twisted, its called moving on to a better place with your ideas and how they apply to the game. You can't really grow unless you do that.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Just remember that Kareem was old and getting to the point where he should retire by the time Hakeem entered the league. Camparing those two head to head from 85 to 89 is kinda silly. Jabbar was 42 in 1989.

[Pointguard]

of course shot blocking is all about timing. but people think sky hook is like a something mythical monster that no one can stop. it's not. great shot blocker could block it. it would be very difficult, but it can be done. i've seen hakeem do it. i've seen eaton do it. shot being released at 12ft is just nothing but a myth. maybe kareem did few times in his absolute peak, but his 'normal' sky hook wasn't released that high. it barely was over 10ft, and many times below the rim.

but he didn't have to. it was quick & methodical, and he guarded himself with left elbow so there is a separation between him and a defender. and later his sky hook had much more arc than before, so in compensated his lack of athleticism.

and in that 2nd block, kareem kinda rushed it and he leaned a little. maybe he learned his lesson against the great wilt. no doubt kareem's sky hook was work in progress at this point of his career.
People talk about Dirk's shot being unlockable and its about a foot lower in its release than Kareem's. Eaton could, on rare ocassion, block the 'later' sky hook he had no chance of catching the one that Chamberlain caught in that video. Kareem does a "Dream shake" (its actually a Rutger playground move made popular by the Pearl) in that video and was way too quick for most centers - that video you provided is in slow motion. Eaton could not have aligned his footing to be close to matching KAJ's quickness and torques. Kareem had way more bounce in his step when he first came into the league.

The later skyhook was slower, more methodical and much more predictable. As he got older it was a lazier shot with just more arch and shoulder space. When 6'5 Dantley had bounce in his step his release point was about at 7 feet and his shot was rarely blocked and he lived posting up. When he slowed down it was getting swatted. And you also didn't factor in that Kareem never scored like that ever again and that back then KAJ had to be more creative like the rest of the centers in that league at that time - No Magic with the hook up down low. The sky hook was a work in regress after that. You never see the footing get set as quick, and you never see the preliminary moves as fluid than in that Chamberlain film.

[Linspired]

kareem shot .434 in the playoffs between 1972 and 1973. Kareem played 17 games in that 2 year pan and he played wilt 6 times and rest was against Nate thurmond. 2 time first nba defensive teamer thurmond did a great job playing D holding kareem to shoot below 44% in two series just like wilt did. so it wasn't just wilt who did a great job guarding a young superstar.

IMO, kareem really wasn't peaking at that time of his career even though his regular season stat may suggest that he was indeed in his peak. most definitely he was in his athletic prime, but he still had rooms to grow as a player and a leader.

kareem was probably thinking he was invincible. i mean this is a dude who couldn't lose at UCLA, being heralded as the next big thing. and winning a championship so early in his career made him a god like status, and most likely made everyone to forget about wilt/russell. he probably got a big bullseye in his back and these veterans(wilt/thurmond) wanted show the young stud that they still have something left. and sometimes when player experiences success too early in his career is not always a great thing.

anyway, how did kareem do against wilt in 70-71 in the playoffs?

[Linspired]

People talk about Dirk's shot being unlockable and its about a foot lower in its release than Kareem's. Eaton could, on rare ocassion, block the 'later' sky hook he had no chance of catching the one that Chamberlain caught in that video. Kareem does a "Dream shake" (its actually a Rutger playground move made popular by the Pearl) in that video and was way too quick for most centers - that video you provided is in slow motion. Eaton could not have aligned his footing to be close to matching KAJ's quickness and torques. Kareem had way more bounce in his step when he first came into the league.

The later skyhook was slower, more methodical and much more predictable. As he got older it was a lazier shot with just more arch and shoulder space. When 6'5 Dantley had bounce in his step his release point was about at 7 feet and his shot was rarely blocked and he lived posting up. When he slowed down it was getting swatted. And you also didn't factor in that Kareem never scored like that ever again and that back then KAJ had to be more creative like the rest of the centers in that league at that time - No Magic with the hook up down low. The sky hook was a work in regress after that. You never see the footing get set as quick, and you never see the preliminary moves as fluid than in that Chamberlain film.

dirk's shot is unblockable because he creates so much separation. something we've never seen before by a 7ft guy.
http://community.statesmanjournal.com/blogs/sportsblog/files/2011/05/saldc5-5zpypr2k9qe1h98qc1ql_original.jpg

http://nbcprobasketballtalk.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/dallas-mavericks-forward-dirk-nowitzki-41-shoots-a-fade-away-jump-shot-in-the-second-half-against-oklahoma-city-thunder-power-forward-serge-ibaka-9-during-game-1-of-the-nba-western.jpeg
http://blogimages.thescore.com/tbj/files/2011/05/dirk-nowitzki-fadeaway.jpg
IMO dirk shot is slightly more unblockable than kareem's because it is guarded by much smaller defenders, and dirk really creates absurd amount of spaces with his knee. ESPN sports science broke down the dirk fadeaway, and they said dirk creates 4ft of separation. and i remember host was saying even yao ming(9ft 8 standing reach) with derrick rose's 40 inch vertical can't block dirk's classic fadeaway. 9ft 8 + 40 inch = 13ft

but of course kareem's sky hook was more dominant because it was such a high % shot. at the end of the day, dirk is below .50% shooter.

[julizaver]

kareem shot .434 in the playoffs between 1972 and 1973. Kareem played 17 games in that 2 year pan and he played wilt 6 times and rest was against Nate thurmond. 2 time first nba defensive teamer thurmond did a great job playing D holding kareem to shoot below 44% in two series just like wilt did. so it wasn't just wilt who did a great job guarding a young superstar.

IMO, kareem really wasn't peaking at that time of his career even though his regular season stat may suggest that he was indeed in his peak. most definitely he was in his athletic prime, but he still had rooms to grow as a player and a leader.

kareem was probably thinking he was invincible. i mean this is a dude who couldn't lose at UCLA, being heralded as the next big thing. and winning a championship so early in his career made him a god like status, and most likely made everyone to forget about wilt/russell. he probably got a big bullseye in his back and these veterans(wilt/thurmond) wanted show the young stud that they still have something left. and sometimes when player experiences success too early in his career is not always a great thing.

anyway, how did kareem do against wilt in 70-71 in the playoffs?

You can find your answers here.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170340

[jlauber]

jlauber, not sure what you are implying... but hakeem didn't really go up against kareem too much. it was ralph sampson who guarded kareem most of the time. sampson probably wanted to challenge kareem not only because they were similar in height, but because sampson was viewed as 2nd best center in his own team. him preferring to play PF rather than center time to time also probably made him to go up against kareem more. kareem has no problem shooting over smaller hakeem even at age 38 -39. hakeem at this career was finisher & shot blocker. he didn't dominate guys with his signature dream shake just yet. i recall hakeem guarding worthy and rambis alot in 86 series. he also did guard kareem, but again kareem wasn't his main asignment.


anyway,

23 regular season H2H
hakeem 22.3/11.9/2.6 .51%
kareem 22.5/6.6/1.9 .60%

playoffs
hakeem 31/11.2/2.2/2/4block
kareem 27/6.8/3.4.8/2.4block

but again, they really didn't go at it each other. it was sampson's job to neutralize kareem, not hakeem.

if i had to guess, older and more experienced 38 kareem would still hold his own against 72 wilt especially if he was playing with worthy, magic & etc. kareem not having to do everything on his own would allow him to be efficient IMO even against great wilt. i won't even be surprised if 38 year old kareem shoots over .50% against 72 wilt. after all when you have Magic on your side, you will get some easy baskets for sure. he probably won't score more than 20pts though.

Actually, we have a considerable amount of evidence clearing pointing to Hakeem TRYING to guard a 38-39 year old Kareem in most of their H2H's. There was VIDEO footage of the Kareem's 40 point game against Hakeem on YouTube, (and it might still be there in it's entirety, but I am too lazy to look), but here is the edited version (and probably edited by a Rocket's fan) of that 40 point game. In it you will see Hakeem as the prmary defender.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q5QEFLydLA&feature=related

And thanks to PHILA, we have this recap of Kareem's monstrous 46 point effort against Hakeem (in only 37 minutes BTW.)

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=206575


Worthy after the game: "Kareem always plays better against Olajuwon. It's because of all the comparisons. He's been around 17 years but he still has to show the kids that he's the best."

Hakeem after the game: "He played real tough. I tried to go around him and steal the ball but he slipped around me and went to the basket."


Los Angeles Times:

While Akeem Olajuwon spent the whole game trying to steal the ball from Abdul-Jabbar, the Laker center spent the whole game throwing down a breathtaking series of hook shots on his way to a 46-point explosion.

For some reason, Rocket Coach Bill Fitch thinks it is a good idea to let Olajuwon go one-on-one with Abdul-Jabbar. It proved to be the biggest coaching blunder in any Laker game this season.

Abdul-Jabbar made 21 of 30 shots in 37 minutes to reach his high this season. He probably could have scored 50 points (his career high is 55) had he played any longer.

As for your H2H numbers between the two, you are a good poster, but you made the same mistake that Dickwad did in a similar topic on the Gilmore-Hakeem H2H's...you are forgetting the Kareem-Hakeem FIVE H2H games of the '84-85 season (Basketball Reference has the box scores, but only goes back to 85-86 for H2H's.)

Here were Kareem's numbers in the 84-85 H2H's...




32 14-22 .636
34 14-20 .700
40 16-29 .551
19 8-16 .500
30 13-17 .765



And here are the 38-39 Kareem's numbers in their first ten straight H2H games overall...




32 14-22 .636
34 14-20 .700
40 16-29 .551
19 8-16 .500
30 13-17 .765

35 17-26 .654
46 21-30 .700
43 16-24 .667
18 7-12 .583
23 10-19 .526

320
136-215 .633

Or 32 ppg on an astonishing .633 FG%...all from a 38-39 year old.



As for the Gilmore-Hakeem H2H's, I am not certain how much the two defended each other, but CLEARLY, in their first TEN STRAIGHT H2H games, a 35-36 year old Gilmore, in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, put up these numbers against either Hakeem (incidently they were lined up against each other in the box scores)...


84-85 season


1.

Gilmore 8-11 11-13 27
Olajuwon 7-12 0-1 14

2.

Gilmore 9-14 5-6 23
Olajuwon 11-20 5-7 27

3.

Gilmore 4-7 4-7 12
Olajuwon 10-18 2-5 22

4.

Gilmore 11-18 13-17 35
Olajuwon 6-14 6-9 18

5.

Gilmore 10-13 12-13 32
Olajuwon 6-13 4-4 16

6.

Gilmore 10-15 9-10 29
Olajuwon 7-18 2-3 16


Gilmore 52-78 54-66 158
Olajuwon 47-95 19-29 113

Gilmore .666 26.3 ppg
Olajuwon .494 18.8 ppg



85-86

4 games

Gilmore 34-49 .694 79 19.8 ppg
Olajuwon 28-57 .491 74 18.5 ppg


Thru 85-86

10 games

Gilmore 86-127 .677 237 23.7 ppg
Olajuwon 75-152 .493 187 18.7 ppg



More to come...

[jlauber]

BTW, and regarding the 10 Gilmore-Hakeem H2H's from the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, Dickwad challenged my facts...and

as always, came out looking like a fool...

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=259815

Here were his initial responses...




Jlauber, you're full of shit as always

This is the correct stats regarding Olajuwon's head to head vs Artis;

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1&p2=olajuha01

And Artis didn't even face Olajuwon 10 times from 84-86..



and again...



The moron, Jlauber, even posted the wrong stats and he made up games they didn't even play against each other..




and yet again...




Hakeem fans will argue that you're full of shit and that you posted the wrong stats..





and here was MY reply




Dickwad...

Do you EVER do ANY research?

They faced each other SIX times in the 84-85 season. I don't have time to pull the numbers right now, but Gilmore

dominated Hakeem in those six meetings.

Of course, all YOU have to do is look up the actual H2H's YOURSELF!

What a complete IDIOT!




But, the idiot wanted to come back for even more...


http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=259815&page=2





You're the complete idiot, you always have time..

Show the stats from those 6 games from 84-85, just share the link you got it from..





So, as always, I shot him down...






Here again, I WILL do the RESEARCH, unlike yourself who NEVER does.


Quote:
84-85 season


1.

Gilmore 8-11 11-13 27
Olajuwon 7-12 0-1 14

2.

Gilmore 9-14 5-6 23
Olajuwon 11-20 5-7 27

3.

Gilmore 4-7 4-7 12
Olajuwon 10-18 2-5 22

4.

Gilmore 11-18 13-17 35
Olajuwon 6-14 6-9 18

5.

Gilmore 10-13 12-13 32
Olajuwon 6-13 4-4 16

6.

Gilmore 10-15 9-10 29
Olajuwon 7-18 2-3 16


Gilmore 52-78 54-66 158
Olajuwon 47-95 19-29 113

Gilmore .666 26.3 ppg
Olajuwon .494 18.8 ppg





Now, I don't have much time (I have to work for a living), I will give you ONE link. From that YOU can do the rest.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...504070SAS.html

BTW, ANYONE can do this. You just have to take the time. It's all out there.

Now, whether Hakeem was actually defending Gilmore, or if it was Sampson, it does not matter. In Gilmore's first ten

games against Hakeem's teams, Gilmore was the better player.

[jlauber]

wilt blocking kareem's sky hook
http://youtu.be/EwHP04TWOps


but let's stop acting like kareem's sky hook is totally unblockable. he barely had any lift on the first block. 2nd block was impressive, but still kareem's hand was barely over the rim when the ball was released. wilt with freaky length timed it perfectly and got a clean block. looks like his finger tip is about foot over the rim meaning guys like dwight or mcgee could also block that shot if they time it right.

Keep in mind that Chamberlain battled Kareem in 27 of their 28 H2H games, from age 34 on, at around 300 lbs., and on a surgically repaired knee. And, he was blocking the skyhook in the air and at it's apex.

Then, think about this. A mid-60's Wilt had TWO eye-witness accounts, one by Philly sports icon, Sonny Hill, and the other by longtime Sixer trainer, Al Domenico, who claimed they witnessed Wilt touching the top of the backboard (something Wilt acknowledged himself, of course.)

Now, take that mid-60's Wilt, at around 280-290 lbs, and with more speed and athleticism, and pit him against the Kareem that an old Chamberlain faced. There would be no telling how many more blocks of the "unblockable" skyhook that the world would have witnessed. It would have certainly been a common sight.

[jlauber]

These bridge arguments were among the some of the best post I've seen on this board or among all of the boards I've read. They provide context for change and how the game didn't change.

It takes courage to change your mind. The bridge argument encouraged Jlauber to change his prior thoughts on how things change. Its not being hypocritical or twisted, its called moving on to a better place with your ideas and how they apply to the game. You can't really grow unless you do that.

Thanks again. I have long respected your opinions here, and you are among the best posters on the site.

Something else to consider, too. As we have been finding out more-and-more, players from the 80's to current have been "over-measured." Ben Wallace was really 6-7, and not 6-9. Dwight Howard is barely over 6-9. Hakeem was nowhere near 7-0, and was barely 6-10. Sampson may not have even been a full 7-2, and it was running joke that he was 7-4.

On the fip side, Wilt was taller than his listed 7-1. Russell was taller than his listed 6-9. Thurmond was a full 6-11, but had a higher reach than Wilt (who had a 7-8 wingspan.) In fact, you could add at least an inch to nearly all of the "pre-80" players, most of whom were measured in barefeet.

The reality is/was, players in the past 20-30 years are, at best, only slightly taller than those of the 60's and 70's.

[nightprowler10]

I have said it before and I'll say it again, I have had a lot of respect for jlauber since I joined here. Regardless of if I agree or disagree with some of his points, the fact is that he reaches his conclusions based on logical reasoning, even if it is backed by strong bias. That's more than anyone can say about almost any other poster on ISH.

That said, I feel the main reason he catches so much flak from the average ISHer is because he so often just slams everybody with a wall of information. I imagine if he addressed the point in discussion more often rather than just throwing his textbook of facts at everyone he debates with, he'd get through more often.

[Yung D-Will]

The second people actually start to give Wilt respect, will be the day when jlauber will no longer need to post.

[nightprowler10]

Most credible people have Wilt pretty high in their rankings already. So why waste your time on trolls?

[Inactive]

Most credible people have Wilt pretty high in their rankings already. So why waste your time on trolls?It's unlikely that you'll convince the person you're arguing with, but your posts can still influence the neutral readers. Since most people didn't see his career for themselves, their opinion can be easily swayed by trolls, if no one provides a counter argument. Even if most of them rank Wilt high by default, it's useful to solidify his status in their minds, by teaching, or reminding them of the reasons for his high ranking.

[millwad]

As usual Jlauber writes nonsense without writing the full context of our conversation.

90% of all his "ownage" is him "proving" stuff by posting quotes, not actual facts, but quotes.

This self-proclaimed historian once tried to make a list of all big's Wilt faced in the NBA and he completely made a fool of himself. He listed players who never even played in the NBA, players who just played in the ABA and college players who arrived after Wilt retired as Wilt's competition just to hype him up.

This is the same guy who changed his mind after watching box-scores and youtube-videos, his info is pure copy and paste job, he even uses youtube-comments as sources but still you people think he's a "historian".

This is the same guy who wrote garbage like "Kareem got 20 skyhooks blocked by Wilt in '72 series" and when confronted he had the worst comeback of all-time, he told us to prove his statement wrong.. :facepalm

When that nonsense didn't work he told us that he remembers that Kareem actually got 20 blocks blocked, the same guy who couldn't remember how good the 60's and early 70's were suddenly remembered 40 year old games in detail.

The man is a hoax...

[millwad]

Then, think about this. A mid-60's Wilt had TWO eye-witness accounts, one by Philly sports icon, Sonny Hill, and the other by longtime Sixer trainer, Al Domenico, who claimed they witnessed Wilt touching the top of the backboard (something Wilt acknowledged himself, of course.)
.

Yeah, I can find 1000 eye-witness accounts who have seen the Loch Ness monster, it still doesn't prove a crap, you clown.

[millwad]

Actually, we have a considerable amount of evidence clearing pointing to Hakeem TRYING to guard a 38-39 year old Kareem in most of their H2H's. There was VIDEO footage of the Kareem's 40 point game against Hakeem on YouTube, (and it might still be there in it's entirety, but I am too lazy to look), but here is the edited version (and probably edited by a Rocket's fan) of that 40 point game. In it you will see Hakeem as the prmary defender.


Still spamming the living crap about rookie and 2nd year pro Olajuwon having problem against Kareem. But as always you never menntion the fact that 2nd year pro Olajuwon absolutely abused Kareem and the Lakers in the '86 playoffs. Spam some more about meaningless regular season games, oldie, fact still remains that 2nd year pro Olajuwon who by no means was close to his prime absolutely destroyed Kareem in the playoffs along with his Laker buddies.






As for the Gilmore-Hakeem H2H's, I am not certain how much the two defended each other, but CLEARLY, in their first TEN STRAIGHT H2H games, a 35-36 year old Gilmore, in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, put up these numbers against either Hakeem (incidently they were lined up against each other in the box scores)...


You still don't know if Olajuwon actually guarded Gilmore in those games and still you're spamming about them, you're such a clown. You watch boxscores day in and out and then make judgements based on them boxscores, you even created a Olajuwon vs Gilmore thread when you didn't even know if Hakeem even guarded him... :facepalm

[millwad]

Continuing...

Now, the previous post brings me back to Dickwad's "credibilty." After I researched those Kareem-Hakeem H2H's, and back in around 2008, or so, I completely changed my mind on just how much better the newer generation of athletes were, as compared to those of even the 60's.
.

Which only proves what kind of a clown you are.
You changed your mind over boxscores, you didn't even see the games and you challenged me when I told you that Kareem got abused by 2nd year pro Olajuwon in the '86 playoffs.

What happened with watching basketball since the 60's?

And that you even make a judgement on whole era's based on a matchup between Kareem and rookie and 2nd year pro Olajuwon only proves that you're clueless and stupid. And especially when you never mention the fact that Olajuwon was no where close to his prime, the fact that Olajuwon only had proper training just a couple of years prior to his rookie season and barely had no game in the beginning of his college career and that 2nd year pro who was no where close to his prime absolutely destroyed the Lakers and Kareem in the playoffs.. :facepalm

Keep digging your own grave.

[DKLaker]

Thanks again...

:cheers:

I am too tired to research much of it now, but Kareem got the best of Unseld in the '71 Finals (albeit, the 6-7 Unseld outrebounded him in that series.)

And, I have posted the H2H's before, but Chamberlain just murdered Unseld in the '68-69 H2H's (which is when Unseld won the ROY and MVP...including one game in which he outscored Unseld, 25-4, while outrebounding Wes, 38-9.) Then, in their first meeting the very next season, and before Wilt shredded his knee, Chamberlain dumped a 38 point game on Unseld.

U da Man :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

[Owl]

Still spamming the living crap about rookie and 2nd year pro Olajuwon having problem against Kareem. But as always you never menntion the fact that 2nd year pro Olajuwon absolutely abused Kareem and the Lakers in the '86 playoffs. Spam some more about meaningless regular season games, oldie, fact still remains that 2nd year pro Olajuwon who by no means was close to his prime absolutely destroyed Kareem in the playoffs along with his Laker buddies.





You still don't know if Olajuwon actually guarded Gilmore in those games and still you're spamming about them, you're such a clown. You watch boxscores day in and out and then make judgements based on them boxscores, you even created a Olajuwon vs Gilmore thread when you didn't even know if Hakeem even guarded him... :facepalm
Not that I care because the Jlauber vs Millwad thread has happened many times before and they tend to be full of ad hominiem attacks and attempts to catch the other person out rather than reasoned big picture debates of the facts. Perhaps one side more than the other but I'll let other people decide on that.

But to Gilmore versus Olajuwon you'd expect Olajuwon to have been guarded by Olajuwon because:
a) They were the ones playing the center position
and
b) Sampson didn't have the lower body heft or low center of gravity to keep Gilmore from getting great post position. Not that Olajuwon necessarily did but he had by far the better chance.
In any case if you had chosen to reject an argument based on the assumption that they matched up you wouldn't be in this position instead you have repeatedly engaged in debate, implying Jlauber had fabricated games in which the two played in the 84-86 period.

[Linspired]

Actually, we have a considerable amount of evidence clearing pointing to Hakeem TRYING to guard a 38-39 year old Kareem in most of their H2H's. There was VIDEO footage of the Kareem's 40 point game against Hakeem on YouTube, (and it might still be there in it's entirety, but I am too lazy to look), but here is the edited version (and probably edited by a Rocket's fan) of that 40 point game. In it you will see Hakeem as the prmary defender.

i find that hard to believe. and i did watch that footage before. that video really doesn't prove much. i saw sampson guarding kareem more than akeem guarding kareem. i vaguely remember watching this series as young kid, and only thing i remember was watching 2 tall dudes going at each other. i was saying to myself. 'hm.. kareem must be 7ft 4 too.' i always was fascinated with tall people. lol wish this game was on espn classic. i would have to find tapes and really watch it. if i was a coach, i don't put hakeem on kareem when i have a guy who can match kareem's size. sampson was weak, but it's not like kareem was bulldozing anybody at this point of his career. you gotta match him with length because kareem would just shoot over akeem all day every day.

and i really think you are underrating late 30's kareem. he was an efficient machine playing in a perfect system with a perfect role. he didn't have do too much. he just had to pick a spot and score, and he did that magnificently. no doubt he aged well. and this is one of the reason why Magic is top 3 all time IMO. he just made everybody better. i really believe Magic is the one who made kareem to play as long as he did. playing with magic is just so fun, and players know they will get the ball in a perfect spot.

no doubt wilt will be great in any era. but there really is no definite proof on how great will he be in 80's, 90's or 00's. i think wilt's dominance will be more defensive than offense. and wilt will probably be 25/16 type of a player. shaq like, but with less points, but more rebounds. i just don't think the era we live in favors a center scoring all the time.

[Linspired]

i'm not gonna pretend i watched every kareem vs. akeem match up. i didn't. but it's not a rocket science why kareem had a great success against akeem whenever akeem was guarding kareem.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/NBA%20Height%20Comparison/KareemandHakeem.jpg

[Raz]

But to Gilmore versus Olajuwon you'd expect Olajuwon to have been guarded by Olajuwon because:
a) They were the ones playing the center position
and
b) Sampson didn't have the lower body heft or low center of gravity to keep Gilmore from getting great post position. Not that Olajuwon necessarily did but he had by far the better chance.


100% correct.
Sampson was used exclusively at power forward defensively, he was rail thin, and was not up to the task of guarding huge players like Gilmore. It would be like putting a young Garnett on Shaq in terms of size.

millwad has decided that jlauber has switched opinions on one issue, and can't let it go. I like the guy as a poster usually, but in any jlauber thread, I feel like I need to have millwad on ignore.

[Linspired]

this would be more frequent match up, logically. but i was just too young to remember. one thing certain though is that sampson did guard kareem. question is how often? i wish i can find a tape and watch it.
http://tinyurl.com/cozb6us
http://basketball91.com/files/2011/11/Ralph-Sampson-and-Kareem-Abdul-Jabaar.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/clq8sao
http://tinyurl.com/caqoqla

maybe akeem and sampson just alternated and kareem just owned them both.

[millwad]

100% correct.
Sampson was used exclusively at power forward defensively, he was rail thin, and was not up to the task of guarding huge players like Gilmore. It would be like putting a young Garnett on Shaq in terms of size.

millwad has decided that jlauber has switched opinions on one issue, and can't let it go. I like the guy as a poster usually, but in any jlauber thread, I feel like I need to have millwad on ignore.

You got to understand where I'm coming from to actually understand why I never bought Jlauber's nonsense.

He is spreading his agenda and it's a new one, I can't respect a guy who constantly tells people off and acts like he's some kind of historian with his biased essays.

I can't respect a guy who claims that he actually remembers details in 40 year old series but couldn't remember how good that era was until few years ago.

And I can't especially respect a guy who only spreads one sided and biased info which he copy and pastes from other sites.

Example: Jlauber is the first to tell EVERYONE how dominated Olajuwon got in his rookie and 2nd season as a pro by Kareem, but he's always the last person to tell you that the same 2nd year pro Olajuwon who was no where close to his prime absolutely dominated Kareem in the '86 playoffs.

He's always the first to tell you how Wilt "locked down" Kareem in '72 playoffs but he is the last to tell you that the same Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting on prime defensive Wilt.

And I can't respect a guy who lives on quotes and then make them facts in his imaginary life. He is discrediting every single all-time great big man who played after Wilt just because it fits his agenda. He is the same guy who in this thread called it him owning me because he used quotes as proof.. :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Damn, Milwad popping jhummer like a zit. :oldlol:

Here are the REAL facts: Wilt WILTED in the postseason. Guy averaged 50.4 ppg during the 1962 regular season yet ELGIN BAYLOR had more ppg in the playoffs.

How about Wilt in game 7's vs Boston? Just 21.0 ppg and 0-4 in those game 7

[Pointguard]

no doubt wilt will be great in any era. but there really is no definite proof on how great will he be in 80's, 90's or 00's. i think wilt's dominance will be more defensive than offense. and wilt will probably be 25/16 type of a player. shaq like, but with less points, but more rebounds. i just don't think the era we live in favors a center scoring all the time.
I always had young Wilt moving like prime Amare (26ppg) in terms of speed but back then you primarily created your own shots. Wilt's athletism was like D Robinson - (league leading 28ppg). His power game second to only to Shaq. Dwight Howard is rare in his activity and his attention to center responsibilities these days. Wilt was way more skilled, fundamental, active and tenacious than they ever were. And flat out had a much better touch. If he was on a running pure point guard's team these days (Wall, Kidd, Nash) Wilt would be a terror.

I think a skilled young Amare type of big man would be the most prolific offensively these days. When Kidd and Nash wanted to run defenses had to go along with it. Even Kenyon Martain and Shawn Marion looked good when they did it. Amare had no polish and no offense ran around him and scored 26 ppg. Should tell you something.

[dunksby]

jlauber always whining about ppl disprespecting wilt while the only way he props up Wilt is by trying to disrespect Kareem which is very hypocritical of him. Fact of the matter is Kareem won championships and shitloads of them on every team he played for whether it was NBA, NCAA and even High School. He is arguably the best Basketball player of all time so it's obvious why jlauber is trying to pretend Wilt dominated Kareem in their matchups. Here are the stats for every match up you be the judge:



As I promised before two weeks I published the data collected by me:

Regular season – 1969-70

1. Date: Fri 10/24/69
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 25 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 9-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 23 pts, 20 rebs, 2 as, 2 blocks, 9-21 FG/FGA L

Regular season – 1970-71

2. Date: Fri 11/20/70
- Chamberlain 28 pts, 23 rebs, 3 as, 10 blocks, 7-20 FG/FGA – 6 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 13 rebs, 0 as, 2 blocks, 13-32 FG/FGA W

3. Date: Mon 12/21/70
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 2 blocks, 11-23 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 0 as, 4 blocks, 17-33 FG/FGA W

4. Date: Fri 02/05/71
- Chamberlain 14 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 6 blocks, 7-10 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 27 pts, 10 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA L

5. Date: Thu 02/11/71
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 11 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 21 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 13-30 FG/FGA – 2 blocks against Wilt W

6. Date: Wed 03/03/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 13 rebs, 5 as, 8 blocks, 7-15 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 15 pts, 6 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-21 FG/FGA W

Post season – 1970-71 – WCF playoffs

7. Date: Fri 04/09/71
- Chamberlain 22 pts, 20 rebs, 1 as, 8 blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA – 3 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 32 pts, 22 rebs, 1 as, 1 blocks, 14-30 FG/FGA W

8. Date: Sun 04/11/71
- Chamberlain 26 pts, 22 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA - Wilt blocked numerious shots L
-Abdul-Jabbar 22 pts, 10 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W

9. Date: Wed 04/14/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 24 rebs, 3 as, 3 blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 19 rebs, 6 as, 0 blocks, 8-16 FG/FGA L

10.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 15 pts, 16 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-14 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 14-20 FG/FGA W

11.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 23 pts, 12 rebs, 4 as, 6 blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA – 5 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 15 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 7-23 FG/FGA W

Regular season – 1971-72

12.Date: Sat 11/21/71
- Chamberlain 11 pts, 26 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 4-9 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 39 pts, 17 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 17-33 FG/FGA L

13.Date: Sun 01/09/72
- Chamberlain 15 pts, 12 rebs, 2 as, 6 blocks, 7-11 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 39 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, 9 blocks, 18-34 FG/FGA W

14.Date: Fri 02/04/72
- Chamberlain 18 pts, 25 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 8-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 40 pts, 18 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 16-33 FG/FGA L

15.Date: Wed 03/01/72
- Chamberlain 8 pts, 17 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 33 pts, 12 rebs, 8 as, * blocks, 13-33 FG/FGA L

16.Date: Fri 03/17/72
- Chamberlain 18 pts, 25 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 7-15 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 50 pts, 8 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 22-39 FG/FGA L

Post season – 1971-72 – WCF playoffs

17.Date: Sun 04/09/72
- Chamberlain 10 pts, 24 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 3-12 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 33 pts, 18 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 14-26 FG/FGA W

18.Date: Wed 04/12/72
- Chamberlain 11 pts, 17 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 40 pts, 7 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 18-31 FG/FGA L

19.Date: Fri 04/14/72
- Chamberlain 7 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, 10 blocks, 1-3 FG/FGA – 6 blocks against Jabbar W
-Abdul-Jabbar 33 pts, 21 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 15-37 FG/FGA L

20.Date: Sun 04/16/72
- Chamberlain 5 pts, 11 rebs, 4 as, 3 blocks, 2-7 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 18 rebs, 3 as, 7 blocks, 14-33 FG/FGA W

21.Date: Tue 04/18/72
- Chamberlain 12 pts, 26 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 2-3 FG/FGA - 4 blocks against Jabbar W
-Abdul-Jabbar 28 pts, 16 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 13-33 FG/FGA L

22.Date: Sat 04/22/72
- Chamberlain 20 pts, 24 rebs, 2 as, 9 blocks, 8-12 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 25 rebs, 8 as, * blocks, 16-37 FG/FGA L

Regular season – 1972-73

23.Date: Tue 11/14/72
- Chamberlain 16 pts, 15 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 8-12 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 6 as, 7 blocks, 17-32 FG/FGA L

24.Date: Tue 12/05/72
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 15 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 4-4 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 17 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 11-30 FG/FGA L

25.Date: Sun 01/07/73
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 18 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 12 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 17-36 FG/FGA W

26.Date: Fri 02/09/73
- Chamberlain 8 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 3-3 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 24 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 14-24 FG/FGA W

27.Date: Sun 02/25/73
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 20 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 10-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 21 pts, 21 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 10-27 FG/FGA L

28.Date: Tue 03/27/73
- Chamberlain 0 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 0-0 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 24 pts, 17 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 12-31 FG/FGA W

W = team wоn
L = team lost

* Blocked stats are collected from archive newspapers articles (as most of the data), NBA doesn't kept track of blocked shots before 1973/74 season. I have some blocked shots numbers ( for example if Wilt blocked 20 shots - 11 of Jabbar in two consecutive games in 1972 WCF - and if that were the game 5 and 6 - it will be like Wilt had 11 blocks (4 against Jabbar) in game 5 and 9 blocks (7 against Jabbar) in game 6. But since if I am not able to cross checked it I did not put that data. Also I find in the forum info about Wilt blocked 8 shots in game 1 of 1971/72 regular season, but I was not able to find evidence in google news archive search,so again I do not post it.

[Math2]

i'm not gonna pretend i watched every kareem vs. akeem match up. i didn't. but it's not a rocket science why kareem had a great success against akeem whenever akeem was guarding kareem.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/NBA7902/NBA%20Height%20Comparison/KareemandHakeem.jpg

What is it? That fact that Akeem had quicker speed at that point? Or is it his obvious stronger build?

A couple inches doesn't mean anything. Unless you are saying that height can make the difference in a matchup. Thanks for the info, I always wondered why most ranked Manute Bol above Kareem

Nice post jlauber....In the words of John Sununu, you're struggling milwad

[Owl]

Context for the stats in the post above, Wilt was seriously injured in the 69-70 season.
When he came back he completed his transition to a defense and rebounding focused played. Wilt had often changed roles throughout his career and even prior to that season had accepted a vastly decreased role on offense in LA the previous year taking just 13.6 shots a game third to West (19) and Baylor (21.5) per minute Wilt had taken less shots than all but one other Laker (Freddie Crawford). http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1969.html

This is not to detract from Jabbar who I have rated as 2-3 all time, but merely contextual info which should be borne in mind when comparing the two's statistical performances. In any case any attempt to damage the legacy of one is silly and counterproductive as it makes the their rivals accomplishments against them seem trivial.

[Linspired]

What is it? That fact that Akeem had quicker speed at that point? Or is it his obvious stronger build?

A couple inches doesn't mean anything. Unless you are saying that height can make the difference in a matchup. Thanks for the info, I always wondered why most ranked Manute Bol above Kareem

Nice post jlauber....In the words of John Sununu, you're struggling milwad

do you only see couple of inches there? :no: do you only see couple of inches between shaq & ben wallace too?
kareem is taller than hakeem by 4 inches. imagine 6ft 8 dude guarding a 7ft dude. no matter how fast and quick 6ft 8 dude maybe, a legit 7ft dude who has 4 inches on a smaller defender will have easier time scoring.

i'm still not convinced akeem guarded kareem all 4 qtrs of basketball. if akeem ever did, he would have a trouble against kareem's legendary sky hook which he clearly perfected.

akeem was far away from being a dominant force at this stage of his career. i will not be surprised that kareem just owned inexperienced young stud in stretches because kareem was that good even in late 30's.

dwight howard is quicker and many times more athletic than Yao. but Yao owned dwight more often than not because of the height and skill advantage.

[SyRyanYang]

he's definitely better educated than most posters here

[dunksby]

Context for the stats in the post above, Wilt was seriously injured in the 69-70 season.
When he came back he completed his transition to a defense and rebounding focused played. Wilt had often changed roles throughout his career and even prior to that season had accepted a vastly decreased role on offense in LA the previous year taking just 13.6 shots a game third to West (19) and Baylor (21.5) per minute Wilt had taken less shots than all but one other Laker (Freddie Crawford). http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/1969.html

This is not to detract from Jabbar who I have rated as 2-3 all time, but merely contextual info which should be borne in mind when comparing the two's statistical performances. In any case any attempt to damage the legacy of one is silly and counterproductive as it makes the their rivals accomplishments against them seem trivial.
jlauber always tells one side of the story so I decided to bring things into perspective.

[jlauber]

I don't have a lot of time right now, but there some excellent responses above.

In any case, here is the bottom line...

A 34 year old Wilt battled a statistically prime Kareem to a statistical draw in the entire 10 H2H games in the 70-71 season (including the playoffs.) This, a year after major knee surgery, and well past his prime.

Nate Thurmond outscored and outshot Kareem in the '72 playoffs, and held him to .428 in the '73 playoffs.

Dave Cowens outplayed Kareem in game seven of the '74 Finals.

Bob McAdoo in the mid-70's routinely outscored Kareem (and without taking the time to look it up, McAdoo mah have had a 41 point game against him.)

In my preliminary research, both Lanier and Gilmore pretty much battled Kareem to standstills in their H2H's.

And Moses pounded Kareem in the late 70's thru the early 80's.


And yet an OLD Kareem could just annihilate Hakeem and Ewing in the mid-80's.

And both Hakeem and Ewing would go on to be among the top-4 centers of the 90's. A Prime Hakeem actually battled a young Shaq to a draw in the '95 Finals.

And, think about this...Shaq's career high game against Hakeem, was 37 points. An OLD Kareem had THREE of 40 just against Hakeem.

And Shaq would go to dominate the late 90's and early 00's.

[Raz]

^Interesting points, I think something you've discovered that experience and guile trump inexperience and youthfulness.

That's why you would see an old Shaq beating up on Greg Oden or Dwight Howard. The same reason you see an old, creaky Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett play Dwight Howard to a standstill.

[Linspired]

I don't have a lot of time right now, but there some excellent responses above.

In any case, here is the bottom line...

A 34 year old Wilt battled a statistically prime Kareem to a statistical draw in the entire 10 H2H games in the 70-71 season (including the playoffs.) This, a year after major knee surgery, and well past his prime.

Nate Thurmond outscored and outshot Kareem in the '72 playoffs, and held him to .428 in the '73 playoffs.

Dave Cowens outplayed Kareem in game seven of the '74 Finals.

In my preliminary research, both Lanier and Gilmore pretty much battled Kareem to standstills in their H2H's.

And Moses pounded Kareem in the late 70's thru the early 80's.


And yet an OLD Kareem could just annihilate Hakeem and Ewing in the mid-80's.

And both Hakeem and Ewing would go on to be among the top-4 centers of the 90's. A Prime Hakeem actually battled a young Shaq to a draw in the '95 Finals.

And, think about this...Shaq's career high game against Hakeem, was 37 points. An OLD Kareem had THREE of 40 just against Hakeem.

And Shaq would go to dominate the late 90's and early 00's.

1. kareem was a still doing his thing in 80's. he still was a great offensive weapon up until 87 ish. high fg% is a good indication.
2. kareem played for a dominant team. why are you ignoring this?
3. ewing & hakeem was still young pups compared to kareem in mid 80's. kareem dropped 40 on ewing in 86. in 1986, ewing was far away from being a great center. ewing & hakeem came to their own in late 80's and became dominant early 90's to mid 90's. ewing's statistical jump happened in 1989.


go watch hakeem in 94 & 95 and watch young akeem. and tell me if they are same players. they aren't. and ewing became a dominant and complete center around 89. that was the first year he avg double digit reb.

:confusedshrug:

[Math2]

do you only see couple of inches there? :no:


Yes.




kareem is taller than hakeem by 4 inches.


My point exactly.


kareem is taller than hakeem by 4 inches. imagine 6ft 8 dude guarding a 7ft dude. no matter how fast and quick 6ft 8 dude maybe, a legit 7ft dude who has 4 inches on a smaller defender will have easier time scoring.

You mean that Darrell Imhoff had an easier time scoring on Russell than Wilt? Height doesn't mean everything.

[DatAsh]

in fact, he's among the best on this site, if not the best.

Jlauber has absolutely no case as the best poster on this site when there are guys who routinely post equally thought provoking and well thought out post, yet also manage to do it in an un-biased manner.

[Asukal]

Jlauber has absolutely absolutely no case as the best poster on this site when there are guys who routinely post equally thought provoking and well thought out post, yet also manage to do it in an un-biased manner.

Best poster? LOL! Jlauber understands only one thing and that is stats. :biggums:

Facts:
- He is extremely biased towards Wilt.
- He will never say anything that downgrades Wilt.
- He will prop up other stars from Wilt's era to prop up Wilt.
- He will diminish other stars from Wilt's era to prop up Wilt.
- He believes every feat that is said to be done by Wilt.

Sure he does great research but who's to say everything he copy pastes is 100% accurate? Fact is jlauber is a Wilt stan, and last I checked no stan makes the best posters list. If you believe everything he posts as facts, then... :facepalm

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Best poster? LOL! Jlauber understands only one thing and that is stats. :biggums:

Facts:
- He is extremely biased towards Wilt.
- He will never say anything that downgrades Wilt.
- He will prop up other stars from Wilt's era to prop up Wilt.
- He will diminish other stars from Wilt's era to prop up Wilt.
- He believes every feat that is said to be done by Wilt.

Sure he does great research but who's to say everything he copy pastes is 100% accurate? Fact is jlauber is a Wilt stan, and last I checked no stan makes the best posters list. If you believe everything he posts as facts, then... :facepalm

No answer for the H2H Kareem / Hakeem stats Milwad posted, so in typical Jlauber fashion, he goes on a tangent debating something else entirely.

Weird that it's only "cool" to stan when it's an oldschool player. :rolleyes:

[Linspired]

Yes.





My point exactly.



You mean that Darrell Imhoff had an easier time scoring on Russell than Wilt? Height doesn't mean everything.


4 inches is a huge difference. not only that the standing reach difference is 7 inch + and we are talking about great Kareem, not some scrub. kareem's 9ft 8 inch standing reach is part of his strength. his sky hook wouldn't be as effective if he was 6ft 10 like hakeem was. let's not act like it doesn't matter. it matters. akeem is vastly undersized when he is going up against 7ft 2 top 3-4 greatest all time.

[Pointguard]

Jlauber has absolutely no case as the best poster on this site when there are guys who routinely post equally thought provoking and well thought out post, yet also manage to do it in an un-biased manner.
:lol at you making sure you didn't get my full sentence.

But he has a case as being the best poster for the simple reason of attention, and energy he draws up while keeping another era relevant.

I don't know who is unbiased on this board? Why even make pretension that somebody is that way? Why come to a fan site and act like you are a computer? Not one person here is unbiased and if they have fooled you doesn't make them a good poster. This board isn't a court and posters don't need a court quality to be good. Much better to just be honest and say what you feel. Everybody here has their opinions and everybody here has an irrational one in there somewhere - there are no exceptions. You always hope that the poster is rational and coherent.

The fact that Jlauber has changed his mind, means he's in a better place than most posters. Because it means he's always assessing and evaluating what he knows. If you don't allow room for growth than you peaked before you really understood what you think you know.

When I coached a player like KG I totally felt different about KG's value to a team. I went from disliking a player to really seeing great value in him. Both were biases. Its important to distinguish judging and bias. I never judged this player as being harmful or unworthy - I initially just didn't like his style but I thought he was the best player around. I think too many of you confuse having a bias with being judgmental.

[millwad]

And yet an OLD Kareem could just annihilate Hakeem and Ewing in the mid-80's.

And both Hakeem and Ewing would go on to be among the top-4 centers of the 90's. A Prime Hakeem actually battled a young Shaq to a draw in the '95 Finals.

And, think about this...Shaq's career high game against Hakeem, was 37 points. An OLD Kareem had THREE of 40 just against Hakeem.

And Shaq would go to dominate the late 90's and early 00's.

No, Olajuwon didn't battle a young Shaq to a draw, you're obsessed with quotes so let me give you a quote from Shaq himself;

"If I can't beat you, I'll be a man and say I can't beat you. I'm not going to [cry about it]. . . . I'm the first guy to say that somebody is better than me. I was the first guy to say Hakeem Olajuwon beat me in the [1995] NBA finals. He killed me. He dominated me. I didn't go, 'Oh, he's traveling. They had experience. Wah-wah-wah.' I'm a man. Hakeem Olajuwon dusted my butt."

But still you are discrediting Olajuwon with your nonsense, you even claimed that Olajuwon got outplayed in that series but only changed your mind after people started to bash you like crazy for that BS.

It's funny how you use stats, everyone says that Olajuwon outplayed Shaq in the series in '95, even Shaq himself. You're the only one who thinks it was either Shaq outplaying Olajuwon or it being a draw.

Do you remember when you tried to make a game by game analyze after I told you to do so, you gave game 3 of that series to Shaq which proves that you didn't even see the series.

Not only that, stats makes you spam about the '95 series between Shaq and Hakeem was a draw, but you don't use the same logic when it comes to Wilt.

In his '72 series vs Kareem and the Bucks Wilt got outscored by 23 points per game on better FG% and outassisted etc, that is according to you "Wilt killing Kareem" but your logic fails completely when it doesn't fit your agenda.

You're garbage.

[DatAsh]

:lol at you making sure you didn't get my full sentence.


I only quoted the part I disagreed with. I'm with you in the sense that Jlauber is a generally one of the better posters on this site, and he does back up his points. As an old guy myself, I appreciate the light he sheds on the NBA's past. I just can't put him on the same tier as guys like G.O.A.T. and ShaqAttack who provide just as much insight(if not more) and do it with 100x less bias.

You're right that everyone is biased to at least some degree, but you're deluded if you think that someone like G.O.A.T. is anywhere near as biased as Jlauber.

[Nevaeh]

I only quoted the part I disagreed with. I'm with you in the sense that Jlauber is a generally one of the better posters on this site, and he does back up his points. As an old guy myself, I appreciate the light he sheds on the NBA's past. I just can't put him on the same tier as guys like G.O.A.T. and ShaqAttack who provide just as much insight(if not more) and do it with 100x less bias.

You're right that everyone is biased to at least some degree, but you're deluded if you think that someone like G.O.A.T. is anywhere near as biased as Jlauber.

It seems that Jlauber only really gets biased when it comes to defending Wilt's legacy. The problem is that when he begins defending Wilt, he tends to embellish and make constant excuses for Wilt's shortcomings, while at the same time trying to downplay other Greats with half truths, hoping that he doesn't get called on them.

He goes into "Troll" mode just like everyone else here at ISH. It just looks more sophisticated because he uses a lot more paragraphs instead of a "U Mad" pic like the youngsters do. Still like him as a poster though, but he ain't no saint, at least based on how he was getting praised earlier in this thread.

[DatAsh]

It seems that Jlauber only really gets biased when it comes to defending Wilt's legacy. The problem is that when he begins defending Wilt, he tends to embellish and make constant excuses for Wilt's shortcomings, while at the same time trying to downplay other Greats with half truths, hoping that he doesn't get called on them.

He goes into "Troll" mode just like everyone else here at ISH. It just looks more sophisticated because he uses a lot more paragraphs instead of a "U Mad" pic like the youngsters do. Still like him as a poster though, but he ain't no saint, at least based on how he was getting praised earlier in this thread.

It's mainly just Wilt, but he's also fairly biased for Magic/against Bird, and really biased against Olajuwon.

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=kuniva_dAMiGhTy]Damn, Milwad popping jhummer like a zit. :oldlol:

Here are the REAL facts: Wilt WILTED in the postseason. Guy averaged 50.4 ppg during the 1962 regular season yet ELGIN BAYLOR had more ppg in the playoffs.

How about Wilt in game 7's vs Boston? Just 21.0 ppg and 0-4 in those game 7

[jlauber]

No, Olajuwon didn't battle a young Shaq to a draw, you're obsessed with quotes so let me give you a quote from Shaq himself;

"If I can't beat you, I'll be a man and say I can't beat you. I'm not going to [cry about it]. . . . I'm the first guy to say that somebody is better than me. I was the first guy to say Hakeem Olajuwon beat me in the [1995] NBA finals. He killed me. He dominated me. I didn't go, 'Oh, he's traveling. They had experience. Wah-wah-wah.' I'm a man. Hakeem Olajuwon dusted my butt."

But still you are discrediting Olajuwon with your nonsense, you even claimed that Olajuwon got outplayed in that series but only changed your mind after people started to bash you like crazy for that BS.

It's funny how you use stats, everyone says that Olajuwon outplayed Shaq in the series in '95, even Shaq himself. You're the only one who thinks it was either Shaq outplaying Olajuwon or it being a draw.

Do you remember when you tried to make a game by game analyze after I told you to do so, you gave game 3 of that series to Shaq which proves that you didn't even see the series.

Not only that, stats makes you spam about the '95 series between Shaq and Hakeem was a draw, but you don't use the same logic when it comes to Wilt.

In his '72 series vs Kareem and the Bucks Wilt got outscored by 23 points per game on better FG% and outassisted etc, that is according to you "Wilt killing Kareem" but your logic fails completely when it doesn't fit your agenda.

You're garbage.

Hakeem's TEAMMATES badly outplayed Shaq's. For all of your nonsense about how little help Hakeem had, he had SAMPSON reducing Kareem's effectiveness in the '86 WCF's, and Thorpe shooting a huge percenatge while outrebounding Hakeem himself in the '94 Finals, and then he had his TEAMMATES collectively outshooting Shaq's in FG%, 2 3pt % and by a huge point differential at the foul line, in a series in which, Shaq scored 28 ppg on, get this... .595 shooting (contrast that with Kareem shooting .457, and only .414 over the course of his last FOUR games of the '72 WCF's), as well as outrebounding, outassisting, and outblocking Hakeem in that series.

And I get sick-and-tired of those that use Shaq's absolute dominance in second half over Hakeem, in a loss, as some kind of excuse. Hakeem was hanging on for dear life.

Of course, idiots like yourself also NEVER mention that Shaq BADLY outplayed Hakeem in their ENTIRE career H2H's, and especially in the '99 post-season. A young Shaq gets no excuse, even though YOU have used it in defense of HAKEEM (against Kareem), and then, you NEVER bring up a more PRIME Shaq just murdering Hakeem. BUT, you will point out a PRIME Kareem outscoring an OLD Wilt, playing on a surgically repaired knee in the '72 WCF's...and in series in which it was UNIVERSALLY accepted that Wilt outplayed Kareem.

This from the same CLOWN who, in all seriousness, claimed that Bynum would have dominated Wilt.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

jlauber, who would be better in Today's League - Wilt, Bynum, Ben Wallace, or Russell?

[jlauber]

jlauber, who would be better in Today's League - Wilt, Bynum, Ben Wallace, or Russell?

You tell me.

We KNOW that Wilt was taller, bigger, longer, stronger, faster, more athletic, and more skilled than either Bynum or Wallce, though.

[Pointguard]

I only quoted the part I disagreed with. I'm with you in the sense that Jlauber is a generally one of the better posters on this site, and he does back up his points. As an old guy myself, I appreciate the light he sheds on the NBA's past. I just can't put him on the same tier as guys like G.O.A.T. and ShaqAttack who provide just as much insight(if not more) and do it with 100x less bias.

You're right that everyone is biased to at least some degree, but you're deluded if you think that someone like G.O.A.T. is anywhere near as biased as Jlauber.
GOAT does make an effort to be less biased but that doesn't make him a better poster. In the end, he still is biased. When I first came on this board I had it out with GOAT about his biases and intolerance of different opinions. Perhaps to you being clear of biases is high on your list of being a good poster: I think there's some room for that in being a journalist but its useless on message boards. A message board is a place for opinions - not scientific journalism. You're deluded if you think people go to message boards to get the unbiased and undisputed truth about basketball from guys, as in many cases on these boards, that never played organized ball. I can tell GOAT played the game - so I'm not saying this about him.

You can only be a good poster here if you are a fan of the sport and understand competition. As a poster Jlauber is competitive and goes hard to score his point. He's supposed to do that.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You tell me.

We KNOW that Wilt was taller, bigger, longer, stronger, faster, more athletic, and more skilled than either Bynum or Wallce, though.
You said Russell would be Ben Wallace in today's league, and Russell won 11 rings in Wilt's era. So you tell me.

And lol @ being stronger than Ben Wallace

[jlauber]

You said Russell would be Ben Wallace in today's league, and Russell won 11 rings in Wilt's era. So you tell me.

And lol @ being stronger than Ben Wallace

And CHANGED my opinion long ago. Part of it though, was the fact that I didn't see Russell play before the '64 season. In the last half of his career, he cut back his scoring and shooting. BUT, he was a FAR greater offensive player than Wallace.

As for Wallace being stronger than Wilt. I believe Wallace benched 465. There are eye-witness accounts of Chamberlain benching that at age 59. And, the internet is PLASTERED with links giving Wilt a 500 lb bench.

So, yes, Chamberlain was better at EVERY aspect of the game than Wallace, even in FT shooting. And his IMPACT at the line was even better than Bynum's. So, here again, Wilt was better at EVETY facet of the game than Bynum too. And that doesn't even include the fact that Bynum could blow up his knee while brushing his teeth.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And CHANGED my opinion long ago. Part of it though, was the fact that I didn't see Russell play before the '64 season. In the last half of his career, he cut back his scoring and shooting. BUT, he was a FAR greater offensive player than Wallace.

As for Wallace being stronger than Wilt. I believe Wallace benched 465. There are eye-witness accounts of Chamberlain benching that at age 59. And, the internet is PLASTERED with links giving Wilt a 500 lb bench.

So, yes, Chamberlain was better at EVERY aspect of the game than Wallace, even in FT shooting. And his IMPACT at the line was even better than Bynum's. So, here again, Wilt was better at EVETY facet of the game than Bynum too. And that doesn't even include the fact that Bynum could blow up his knee while brushing his teeth.
Wilt can also
jump 50" off the ground
run a 4.6 40 yard dash
dunk so hard on opponent that it crushed his toes

yes, yes we know this :oldlol::facepalm

[jlauber]

Wilt can also
jump 50" off the ground
run a 4.6 40 yard dashdunk so hard on opponent that it crushed his toes

yes, yes we know this :oldlol::facepalm


Easily a 40" veritcal, and at nearly 7-2, with a 7-8 wingspan, and he was probably the highest reaching NBA player ever.

That 4.6 is interesting. None other than Hank Stram clocked him at 4.6 in a tryout for the Chiefs in the mid-60's. Wilt was 27 at the time, and weighed 290 lbs. Chamberlain, himself, claims to have run a 4.4 which is not really that unbelieveable, considering he was around 250 lbs when he was a member of KU's 4x100 relay team at age 20.

As for the "breaking of toes"...here again, take it up with Johnny Kerr. He is the one who made that comment...NOT Wilt.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Shredded this nonsense...

So why haven't you addressed the bit on Wilt being outscored by Sam Jones...in EVERY game 7 vs Boston?

1962: Wilt scored 22 pts; Jones scores 28 pts (Wilt's 50.4 ppg season)
1965: Wilt scored 30 pts; Jones scores 37 pts
1968: Wilt scored 14 pts; Jones scores 22 pts
1969: Wilt scored 18 pts; Jones scores 24 pts (and it was his last career NBA game. :oldlol:)

Bottom line: Where was he in those game 7's?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Easily a 40" veritcal, and at nearly 7-2, with a 7-8 wingspan, and he was probably the highest reaching NBA player ever.

That 4.6 is interesting. None other than Hank Stram clocked him at 4.6 in a tryout for the Chiefs in the mid-60's. Wilt was 27 at the time, and weighed 290 lbs. Chamberlain, himself, claims to have run a 4.4 which is not really that unbelieveable, considering he was around 250 lbs when he was a member of KU's 4x100 relay team at age 20.

As for the "breaking of toes"...here again, take it up with Johnny Kerr. He is the one who made that comment...NOT Wilt.
His head never gets near the rim in any video and the dude is 7'2"

[jlauber]

His head never gets near the rim in any video and the dude is 7'2"

Thanks to Cavs Fan


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpVZS26BUs

[Deuce Bigalow]

So why haven't you addressed the bit on Wilt being outscored by Sam Jones...in EVERY game 7 vs Boston?

1962: Wilt scored 22 pts; Jones scores 28 pts (Wilt's 50.4 ppg season)
1965: Wilt scored 30 pts; Jones scores 37 pts
1968: Wilt scored 14 pts; Jones scores 22 pts
1969: Wilt scored 18 pts; Jones scores 24 pts (and it was his last career NBA game. :oldlol:)

Bottom line: Where was he in those game 7's?
OUCH

[Deuce Bigalow]

Thanks to Cavs Fan


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpVZS26BUs
Are...You..For real?

:oldlol:

[jlauber]

Are...You..For real?

:oldlol:

BTW, none other than TEX WINTER claims that a high school Wilt (and not yet fully grown) was taking three steps behind the FT line, and dunking the ball with a leap from behind the line. In fact, he was so stunned, that he organized the rule committee and they subsequently banned the dunking of FTs because of "freakish activity."

And both Sonny Hill, a well respected Philly sports icon, and long time Sixer trainer, Al Domenico claimed that a mid-60's Wilt touched the top of the backboard.

[Deuce Bigalow]

BTW, none other than TEX WINTER claims that a high school Wilt (and not yet fully grown) was taking three steps behind the FT line, and dunking the ball with a leap from behind the line. In fact, he was so stunned, that he organized the rule committee and they subsequently banned the dunking of FTs because of "freakish activity."

And both Sonny Hill, a well respected Philly sports icon, and long time Sixer trainer, Al Domenico claimed that a mid-60's Wilt touched the top of the backboard.
"This is completely true, I've read it in an art book"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01GWCMGEsUw&feature=player_detailpage#t=10s

[Linspired]

Easily a 40" veritcal, and at nearly 7-2, with a 7-8 wingspan, and he was probably the highest reaching NBA player ever.

That 4.6 is interesting. None other than Hank Stram clocked him at 4.6 in a tryout for the Chiefs in the mid-60's. Wilt was 27 at the time, and weighed 290 lbs. Chamberlain, himself, claims to have run a 4.4 which is not really that unbelieveable, considering he was around 250 lbs when he was a member of KU's 4x100 relay team at age 20.

As for the "breaking of toes"...here again, take it up with Johnny Kerr. He is the one who made that comment...NOT Wilt.


hand timed 4.4 is more like 4.55 at the nfl combine. two very different thing. so 4.4 by 7ft 1 dude? highly unlikely. someone in NFL board calculated Usain bolt's 9.58 run and he ran 40 yard in 4.32.

i don't believe there is anybody in NBA who runs legit 4.4. i would say only guys like AI, westbrook, rose are 4.4 if they train really hard for it. i have to guess wilt would run 4.7s in today's NFL combine. and that's still plenty fast.

[Linspired]

Thanks to Cavs Fan


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpVZS26BUs


i've already discredited the legitimacy of that video in other thread. he hands are nowhere near 13ft.

[Deuce Bigalow]

i've already discredited the legitimacy of that video in other thread. he hands are nowhere near 13ft.
The man thinks Wilt dunked from the freethrow line..and not only that, he did it with just a couple of steps. It's no use talking logic about Wilt's mythical abilities with him.

[jlauber]

i've already discredited the legitimacy of that video in other thread. he hands are nowhere near 13ft.

YES...it is.

I would guesstimate at about 12' 10". And without a running start, and using his off-hand.

[DatAsh]

"This is completely true, I've read it in an art book"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01GWCMGEsUw&feature=player_detailpage#t=10s

I'm sorry but :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[jlauber]

The man thinks Wilt dunked from the freethrow line..and not only that, he did it with just a couple of steps. It's no use talking logic about Wilt's mythical abilities with him.

Take it up with TEX WINTER you moron. And, while you are at it, ask him why he went to so much trouble to legislate a ban of the dunking of FTs.

[jlauber]

hand timed 4.4 is more like 4.55 at the nfl combine. two very different thing. so 4.4 by 7ft 1 dude? highly unlikely. someone in NFL board calculated Usain bolt's 9.58 run and he ran 40 yard in 4.32.

i don't believe there is anybody in NBA who runs legit 4.4. i would say only guys like AI, westbrook, rose are 4.4 if they train really hard for it. i have to guess wilt would run 4.7s in today's NFL combine. and that's still plenty fast.

Completely off-topic, but...

So Bolt is slower than perhaps 20+ NFL players who have been electronically timed in the 4.2's?

[Linspired]

YES...they are.

I would guesstimate at about 12' 10". And without a running start, and using his off-hand.

wilt doesn't have an alien finger. his finger in that footage looks like 10 inch long

this really is not a good evidence.
http://tinyurl.com/bp7mydz

no doubt wilt displayed tremendous leaping ability for a 7ft 1 man, but again he didn't come close to 13ft

[jlauber]

wilt doesn't have an alien finger. his finger in that footage looks like 10 inch long

In any case, it is clearly an amazing leap. I watched Dwight Howard on Sport Science "break" Shaq's supposed record of 12' 5", with a running start, and on his second attempt...with a leap of 12' 6". Clearly, a younger Chamberlain (who was a part-time high-jump CHAMPION, as well as a long-jumper, triple-jumper, and sprinter), at nearly 7-2, and with a 7-8 wingspan, would have EASILY topped that "record."

[Linspired]

Completely off-topic, but...

So Bolt is slower than perhaps 20+ NFL players who have been electronically timed in the 4.2's?

yes. in first 40 yards. bolt is 6ft 5 and he is all about top speed.

only 11 players officially ran under 4.3.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40-yard_dash

holiday & ford are legit olympic level sprinters.

[jlauber]

yes. in first 40 yards. bolt is 6ft 5 and he is all about top speed.

only 11 players officially ran under 4.3.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40-yard_dash

holiday & ford are legit olympic level sprinters.

At the COMBINE. Many players have been clocked in the 4.2's in their CAREERs. Reggie Bush was timed at 4.28 while at USC. Just one of many examples.

And, I am SURE that Darrell Green, Bob Hayes, Bo Jackson, Deion, and other's would have easily been in the 4.2's.

[Linspired]

In any case, it is clearly an amazing leap. I watched Dwight Howard on Sport Science "break" Shaq's supposed record of 12' 5", with a running start, and on his second attempt...with a leap of 12' 6". Clearly, a younger Chamberlain (who was a part-time high-jump CHAMPION, as well as a long-jumper, triple-jumper, and sprinter), at nearly 7-2, and with a 7-8 wingspan, would have EASILY topped that "record."

dwight howard also had to dunk the ball. he probably could've squeezed another inch or two if he didn't have to worry about dunking the ball. wilt is 7ft 1.06 inch tall. he is 7ft 1, not 7ft 2.

and no, james white holds the mythical record of 12ft 10 inches according to this article
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4307/james-white-vs-a-jumping-myth

[Sarcastic]

yes. in first 40 yards. bolt is 6ft 5 and he is all about top speed.

only 11 players officially ran under 4.3.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40-yard_dash

holiday & ford are legit olympic level sprinters.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Bolt is not known for his great starts, he would not be a great 40 yard dash runner in comparison to fast NFL players. His speed in the 100m kicks in around 30-40m mark, when his long strides take over. It's not surprising at all that NFL players can run faster than him in the 40, which is all about explosiveness at the start.


Michael Jordan was timed at 4.3 in the 40 in college. That doesn't mean he would ever beat Bolt in the 100m though.

[jlauber]

dwight howard also had to dunk the ball. he probably could've squeezed another inch or two if he didn't have to worry about dunking the ball. wilt is 7ft 1.06 inch tall. he is 7ft 1, not 7ft 2.

and no, james white holds the mythical record of 12ft 10 inches according to this article
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4307/james-white-vs-a-jumping-myth

Dwight Howard was NOT dunking the ball in that Sports Science show. He gave it everything he had and on his second attempt, with a long running start, hit 12' 6". Chamberlain was eclipsing that in that video, and with no time to react, and with going straight up (and withOUT benefit of a running start.) BTW, Chamberlain was known to have dunked a ball on a 12' foot rim.

[jlauber]

dwight howard also had to dunk the ball. he probably could've squeezed another inch or two if he didn't have to worry about dunking the ball. wilt is 7ft 1.06 inch tall. he is 7ft 1, not 7ft 2.

and no, james white holds the mythical record of 12ft 10 inches according to this article
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4307/james-white-vs-a-jumping-myth

No, James White holds NO "mythical record" albeit, he had a higher vertical leap than just about every legitimate NBA player. We have no "official" attempts by Wilt or Russell.

[jlauber]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Bolt is not known for his great starts, he would not be a great 40 yard dash runner in comparison to fast NFL players. His speed in the 100m kicks in around 30-40m mark, when his long strides take over. It's not surprising at all that NFL players can run faster than him in the 40, which is all about explosiveness at the start.


Michael Jordan was timed at 4.3 in the 40 in college. That doesn't mean he would ever beat Bolt in the 100m though.

Actually, I think that was exactly what Linspired was saying.

[jlauber]

dwight howard also had to dunk the ball. he probably could've squeezed another inch or two if he didn't have to worry about dunking the ball. wilt is 7ft 1.06 inch tall. he is 7ft 1, not 7ft 2.

and no, james white holds the mythical record of 12ft 10 inches according to this article
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/4307/james-white-vs-a-jumping-myth

Anyway...it's bedtime here at the "home", and have to get off the internet before they pull the plug. Enjoyed the discussions.

[Linspired]

At the COMBINE. Many players have been clocked in the 4.2's in their CAREERs. Reggie Bush was timed at 4.28 while at USC. Just one of many examples.

And, I am SURE that Darrell Green, Bob Hayes, Bo Jackson, Deion, and other's would have easily been in the 4.2's.

and none of them are official. i really don't care about unofficial numbers. i'm certain those guys can run 4.3 or below, but again i've never seen them do it. there is no record of it.

and combine 40 is a totally different animal. many who runs disappointing numbers at the combine runs better at their pro day. they shave off at least .05 to .1 sec. maybe combine grass is slow, but that's the standard NFL goes by. holiday is a midget who is known for his fast start ran 4.29. a legit track dude. his best 100m was 10.01 sec. ford too. tall guys have hard time doing well in combine. that's why calvin johnson is considered a freak. his 4.33 to me is the most impressive combine 40 dash of all time.

[millwad]

Hakeem's TEAMMATES badly outplayed Shaq's. For all of your nonsense about how little help Hakeem had, he had SAMPSON reducing Kareem's effectiveness in the '86 WCF's, and Thorpe shooting a huge percenatge while outrebounding Hakeem himself in the '94 Finals, and then he had his TEAMMATES collectively outshooting Shaq's in FG%, 2 3pt % and by a huge point differential at the foul line, in a series in which, Shaq scored 28 ppg on, get this... .595 shooting (contrast that with Kareem shooting .457, and only .414 over the course of his last FOUR games of the '72 WCF's), as well as outrebounding, outassisting, and outblocking Hakeem in that series.


Haha, again a pile of crap.
Shaq's teammates got outplayed by Hakeem's, yes, but why are you making such a huge deal of it? Hakeem still outplayed Shaq.

And haha, that you even mention that fact is pathetic considering the fact that Wilt's teammates in '72 outplayed Kareem's by a big margin.

And I never said that Hakeem had little help in '86, you idiot, and in '86 the Rockets faced two teams with much more talent a la the showtime Lakers and the Boston Celtics.

And wow, how retarded are you really? So you mean that Hakeem had huge help in '94 just because Thorpe averaged 9.3 points per game on 52%. And haha, is 52% a huge percentage for a guy who averages 9.3 points? Hakeem himself averaged 26.9 points on 50 FG% while he was doubled and tripled the series out. And Thorpe averaged 2 more rebounds per game, so you're really trying to point out the the massive help Hakeem had by mentioning a guy who averaged 9 points and 11 rebounds?

It's funny how you use stats, everyone but you says that Hakeem outplayed Shaq in '95. And you of all people use stats to prove it, while you spam constantly about how Kareem got killed in '72 playoffs while outscoring Wilt with 23 points per game, outassisting Wilt and while shooting FT's twice as good. You're really retarded.



And I get sick-and-tired of those that use Shaq's absolute dominance in second half over Hakeem, in a loss, as some kind of excuse. Hakeem was hanging on for dear life.


Second half of game 3 was garbage time, you idiot, the game was over. Shaq got his points in garbage time, I know you're a huge fan of statpadding but Shaq got outplayed in game 3.



Of course, idiots like yourself also NEVER mention that Shaq BADLY outplayed Hakeem in their ENTIRE career H2H's, and especially in the '99 post-season. A young Shaq gets no excuse, even though YOU have used it in defense of HAKEEM (against Kareem), and then, you NEVER bring up a more PRIME Shaq just murdering Hakeem. BUT, you will point out a PRIME Kareem outscoring an OLD Wilt, playing on a surgically repaired knee in the '72 WCF's...and in series in which it was UNIVERSALLY accepted that Wilt outplayed Kareem.


Yeah, Hakeem got outplayed in '99 season when Shaq was in his prime and Hakeem was....... 36 years old, haha. This ain't even about Shaq vs Hakeem, not even about Wilt vs Hakeem, it is you being a hypocrite and how you use stats to prove a point but go the opposite direction when it comes to stats and when it's about another player.




This from the same CLOWN who, in all seriousness, claimed that Bynum would have dominated Wilt.

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Again you're mentioning Bynum vs Wilt, I have time after time made it clear for you that I was trolling you and still you're spamming about it just because you try to belittle me. It's not working, retard.

[Raz]

millwad, give up. You sound like an absolute fool.

[millwad]

millwad, give up. You sound like an absolute fool.

Exactly what is wrong with what I just wrote?

You're a clown, dude, you've had your head in Jlauber's ass since you joined ISH with your new crappy account and you've followed my ass as well while trying to correct me with moral stupid lessons.

Get a life, seriously, tired of you already, you average 40 posts per day and you try to get involved in every single discussion on ISH. You even told that you were leaving the site, please do so, mr 40 posts per day. You've written 1/3 of the posts I've written in 5 years on ISH, in one month, who are you to tell anyone to leave a discussion.

[DatAsh]

No, James White holds NO "mythical record" albeit, he had a higher vertical leap than just about every legitimate NBA player. We have no "official" attempts by Wilt or Russell.

We do have video evidence of him scraping anywhere from 12'9" - 12'11", it may not be official, but in my eyes he hold the record.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElTzC2M34cY

[Linspired]

No, James White holds NO "mythical record" albeit, he had a higher vertical leap than just about every legitimate NBA player. We have no "official" attempts by Wilt or Russell.

yes he does hold 'mythical record'. it's not official, but there is article written about it, and there is a pretty damn convincing video footage.

wilt could jump 20ft high but it was never recorded, so doesn't count. and that awful video analysis doesn't count. we will never know how high he got up there from that footage.

[jlauber]

yes he does hold 'mythical record'. it's not official, but there is article written about it, and there is a pretty damn convincing video footage.

wilt could jump 20ft high but it was never recorded, so doesn't count. and that awful video analysis doesn't count. we will never know how high he got up there from that footage.

Now, you have seen Wilt's block in that one game, and in which he had no time to react, goes straight up, and tips the ball with his off-hand. Just how much higher would Wilt have reached with a full-speed running start from near half-court, and using his normal hand? (And like BOTH Howard and White...give him multiple attempts, too.)

[Linspired]

Now, you have seen Wilt's block in that one game, and in which he had no time to react, goes straight up, and tips the ball with his off-hand. Just how much higher would Wilt have reached with a full-speed running start from near half-court, and using his normal hand? (And like BOTH Howard and White...give him multiple attempts, too.)

we don't know for sure if wilt has a better max vert than standing vert. most likely he does, but again we will never know. many NFL players have better standing vert than max vert because they trained to jump with 2 legs all the time with their massive thighs. tim tebow is a great example. instead of using 1 powerful leg, he uses 2 powerful leg. many wrestlers are also better standing vert leaper. i too am better 2 foot leaper. tyson chandler has 33.5 max vert, and 31 standing vert. that's only 2.5 inch advantage.

and that footage is just too blurry and wilt is too far from the backboard. it could easily be a camera angle trick. there are many supposed 'head over the rim' shot by bron, griffin and etc but usually it's a bad camera angle enhancements.

i have not seen 40 inch vert in any of the wilt pictures. 40 inch vert is noticeable. it's rare. i don't get that kinda vibe from wilt. IMO, wilt's max vert is anywhere from 33 - 36 inch range. that's still elite for 7ft 1 man.

[jlauber]

we don't know for sure if wilt has a better max vert than standing vert. most likely he does, but again we will never know. many NFL players have better standing vert than max vert because they trained to jump with 2 legs all the time with their massive thighs. tim tebow is a great example. instead of using 1 powerful leg, he uses 2 powerful leg. many wrestlers are also better standing vert leaper. i too am better 2 foot leaper. tyson chandler has 33.5 max vert, and 31 standing vert. that's only 2.5 inch advantage.

and that footage is just too blurry and wilt is too far from the backboard. it could easily be a camera angle trick. there are many supposed 'head over the rim' shot by bron, griffin and etc but usually it's a bad camera angle enhancements.

i have not seen 40 inch vert in any of the wilt pictures. 40 inch vert is noticeable. it's rare. i don't get that kinda vibe from wilt. IMO, wilt's max vert is anywhere from 33 - 36 inch range. that's still elite for 7ft 1 man.

There has been too many eye-witness accounts, and even measurements (George Kiseda measured Wilt with a leap in a hospital in which Chamberlain touched the ceiling, at 42") to suggest that Wilt "only had a 33-36 vertical.)

Furthermore, one of the running jokes here was that there was no footage of a spectacular leap by Chamberlain (until CavsFan came up with that footage)...BUT, I have long maintained that Wilt seldom had to make a max effort. Was he supposed to block shots with his head or chest? Furthermore, Wilt played in some 1200 NBA games, as well as over 40 college games...and all we have is a few total hours of footage. Surely Chamberlain made MANY spectacular plays in his career...albeit, with no footage. Billy Cunningham claims to have witnessed a Wilt block, in which he blocked a shot taken from near the corner, in which Chamberlain came from the other side of the lane, and blocked it at it's apex. Wilt was called for goal-tending on the play, and his coach jumped up to complain to the ref. The ref came over and said, "We both know what we just witnessed was a physical impossibility."

[Linspired]

There has been too many eye-witness accounts, and even measurements (George Kiseda measured Wilt with a leap in a hospital in which Chamberlain touched the ceiling, at 42") to suggest that Wilt "only had a 33-36 vertical.)

Furthermore, one of the running jokes here was that there was no footage of a spectacular leap by Chamberlain (until CavsFan came up with that footage)...BUT, I have long maintained that Wilt seldom had to make a max effort. Was he supposed to block shots with his head or chest? Furthermore, Wilt played in some 1200 NBA games, as well as over 40 college games...and all we have is a few total hours of footage. Surely Chamberlain made MANY spectacular plays in his career...albeit, with no footage. Billy Cunningham claims to have witnessed a Wilt block, in which he blocked a shot taken from near the corner, in which Chamberlain came from the other side of the lane, and blocked it at it's apex. Wilt was called for goal-tending on the play, and his coach jumped up to complain to the ref. The ref came over and said, "We both know what we just witnessed was a physical impossibility."

for sure his 6ft 6 high jump footage is nowhere near 40 inch. if he has 40 inch vert, he would be jumping 7ft 6, not 6ft 6. and that block footage really is a bad footage. i really can't make any sense out of that footage. he could be anywhere from 12ft to 12ft 8 inch. just not clear evidence of his leaping ability.

did he mildly jump all his career? maybe
leap like this is no more than 25 inch. still great for a big man with surgically repaired knee
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/KAREEM-ABDUL-JABBAR-AUTOGRAPHED-SIGNED-BUCKS-16X20-VS-WILT-CHAMBERLAIN-LAKERS-/00/s/NDEyWDMyNQ==/$(KGrHqV,!lEE7scsZ5ZcBPJtU5UhCQ~~60_12.JPG

this would probably be 30-32 inch vert. impressive for a big man
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17idokci98sjqjpg/original.jpg


i haven't seen a legit 40 inch by anybody over 7ft. definitely not from wilt.

this is charles woodson and he has 36 1/2 inch vert.
http://www.annarbor.com/assets_c/2012/05/UMFB_Woodson_97_NationalTitle-thumb-590x406-112418.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5wszdlNDefA/T1fF_DSZemI/AAAAAAAAARM/0pDSyiDsV3Q/s1600/wtzfbcthecatch2102597.gif


and we can rule out 50 inch vertical for sure because 50 inch vertical looks like this. this dude is 5ft 9 vertical trainer.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__azJmr6urTQ/Sx7AzHVAJ-I/AAAAAAAAAAk/6Xlel4bUrO0/s320/ac_barch.jpg

[jlauber]

for sure his 6ft 6 high jump footage is nowhere near 40 inch. if he has 40 inch vert, he would be jumping 7ft 6, not 6ft 6. and that block footage really is a bad footage. i really can't make any sense out of that footage. he could be anywhere from 12ft to 12ft 8 inch. just not clear evidence of his leaping ability.

did he mildly jump all his career? maybe
leap like this is no more than 25 inch. still great for a big man with surgically repaired knee
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/KAREEM-ABDUL-JABBAR-AUTOGRAPHED-SIGNED-BUCKS-16X20-VS-WILT-CHAMBERLAIN-LAKERS-/00/s/NDEyWDMyNQ==/$(KGrHqV,!lEE7scsZ5ZcBPJtU5UhCQ~~60_12.JPG

this would probably be 30-32 inch vert. impressive for a big man
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17idokci98sjqjpg/original.jpg


i haven't seen a legit 40 inch by anybody over 7ft. definitely not from wilt.

this is charles woodson and he has 36 1/2 inch vert.
http://www.annarbor.com/assets_c/2012/05/UMFB_Woodson_97_NationalTitle-thumb-590x406-112418.jpg

I believe Shaq was measured at 36" and he was nowhere near the leaper Chamberlain was (even in Wilt's LAST season.) BTW, Chamberlain coached the Conquistadors in the '74 season, and in a practice, the ball got hung up in a guidewire. None of the players could reach it, including a young 6-11 Caldwell Jones. Chamberlain showed up late, and in a suit-and-tie. He asked what was going on, and when they replied, he said something along the lines "put your money on the floor." He took off his shoes, and to their amazement, he easily tapped the ball down. He was 37 years old at the time.

[Linspired]

i honestly don't know why you are feeding us these stories. these stories are just stories. you can just choose to believe it or not.

and i actually don't believe everything i read. and who knows if shaq faked his standing reach? i can 'fake' my standing reach. anybody can. basically you can cheat your vertical. i really never understood this method. it's not accurate simply because you can half a$$ your standing reach. shaq's 9ft 5 reach could easily be 9ft 7 and that means his vert is 34 inch.

shaq may have a legit 36 inch vert when he was young, but that means he had better vert than blake and dwight. i do think dwight worked his vert up to 38 inch. but he entered the league with 35 1/2 inch vert.

i don't think you can say this kinda dunk is nowhere near wilt's dunk.
http://tinyurl.com/cd3h8m6
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IL_gXJ3U88k/TeeTWI1tesI/AAAAAAAAABA/4aFop6tPMdk/s1600/SHAQ.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-NRNs7q9QyBk/Te6pGCyOEJI/AAAAAAAAAQw/WX-Stwc3Obo/s1600/scan0016.jpg

wilt's
http://krui.fm/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/chamberlain_wilt.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_OzWla_7GOKo/TU6auObEugI/AAAAAAAAAOw/S5f6PAPD1HI/s1600/chamberlain01.jpg
http://media.lawrence.com/img/photos/2006/10/11/wilt_jam_t600.jpg
http://kuhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/1956/12/12031956_06ED.jpg


wilt has never shown me 40 inch leap in any of his footage. shaq has never shown me 36 inch leap either. maybe they can, but i guess i'm a skeptical person.

[abuC]

yes he does hold 'mythical record'. it's not official, but there is article written about it, and there is a pretty damn convincing video footage.

wilt could jump 20ft high but it was never recorded, so doesn't count. and that awful video analysis doesn't count. we will never know how high he got up there from that footage.


Doug Thomas touched 13 feet -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbVJ1IvYkaI

They set up a bell 13 feet high next to the backboard, he rang it.

[Linspired]

well the mythical record is for nba players. :D


i'm sure there is a dude who can get to 13ft in the world. there are 6 billion+ human being. the greatest leapers i've seen in youtube aren't even in the nba.

i believe NBA players' verts are very overrated. even in NFL there are 40+ inch vert every year and they only test standing vert.

[jongib369]

well the mythical record is for nba players. :D


i'm sure there is a dude who can get to 13ft in the world. there are 6 billion+ human being. the greatest leapers i've seen in youtube aren't even in the nba.

i believe NBA players' verts are very overrated. even in NFL there are 40+ inch vert every year and they only test standing vert.
Personally I disagree with you but you're entitled to your opinion. Its a GOOD thing your skeptical...I just think Dantheman's video proves it mathematically with those jumps. His coaches said if he had actually practiced his technique more he could have gotten 7 feet...before the Fflop.

http://www.answersfrommen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/wilt-1.jpg

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-BE051853.jpg?size=67&uid=4ac0c727-e916-4183-9d72-d8b6a09db03f

Those aren't 40 BUT I do believe he could...Shaq's max reach was said on sports science, and dwight was close to it also so I don't see why its out of the realm of possibility...Do you think Russell could? who was an olympic Jumper

[CavaliersFTW]

There has been too many eye-witness accounts, and even measurements (George Kiseda measured Wilt with a leap in a hospital in which Chamberlain touched the ceiling, at 42") to suggest that Wilt "only had a 33-36 vertical.)

Furthermore, one of the running jokes here was that there was no footage of a spectacular leap by Chamberlain (until CavsFan came up with that footage)...BUT, I have long maintained that Wilt seldom had to make a max effort. Was he supposed to block shots with his head or chest? Furthermore, Wilt played in some 1200 NBA games, as well as over 40 college games...and all we have is a few total hours of footage. Surely Chamberlain made MANY spectacular plays in his career...albeit, with no footage. Billy Cunningham claims to have witnessed a Wilt block, in which he blocked a shot taken from near the corner, in which Chamberlain came from the other side of the lane, and blocked it at it's apex. Wilt was called for goal-tending on the play, and his coach jumped up to complain to the ref. The ref came over and said, "We both know what we just witnessed was a physical impossibility."
Are you alive?

http://thesinglesward.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/f2l3937fb7fc43t-medium.gif

[Asukal]

After all those years of trying to convince people that Wilt is the GOAT, jlauber decided to take his talents to south beach... :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

"Um..in this fall, man ttthis is very tough, um..in this fall I'ma take my talents to the grave."