Which player in NBA history has lost in the Finals with the most stacked team?

[ripthekik]

Ya'll know who before you even clicked this thread :roll:

How does the most dominant, number 1 player of the league Lebron James, lose with:

- Top 3 NBA player in 2011 Dwyane Wade, a proven Champion
- Top 5 PF and all star Bosh who has led his own team for 7 years putting up 20 points and 10 rebounds.

Put 2 of the top 3 players in any NBA season and an all star all in their PRIMES and they will NOT lose.

So how did Lebron lose? How is it possible? Is he the biggest choker on the history of the NBA?

http://mavsmag.com/redirk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/258027_522846740410_162900200_30684324_6201276_o-500x373.jpg

[StateOfMind12]

Kobe lost with a Top 5 Center of all-time, a Top 10 PG of all-time, and a top 5 PF of all-time in 2004.

[DaSeba5]

Yet another LeBron thread to bash him. Now we just need the Kobe stans in here.

[SilkkTheShocker]

The OP is so mentally weak he made this thread after getting destroyed in another thread. You must have hit your head hard on that floor when your mother shit you out.

[get these NETS]

sixers team that lost to blazers


had at least 4 guys who were top five in their positions in the league



it's not choking, the better TEAM is going to win a 7 game series..not necessarily the best assortment of talent

[SilkkTheShocker]

Kobe lost with a Top 5 Center of all-time, a Top 10 PG of all-time, and a top 5 PF of all-time in 2004.


Malone/Payton both averaged 20ppg the season before. Wanted to get that out before some Kobe stan said "but..but..they were old" :oldlol:

[ripthekik]

The OP is so mentally weak he made this thread after getting destroyed in another thread. You must have hit your head hard on that floor when your mother shit you out.
Destroyed? more like destroyed your ass everytime. All you do is run away from my questions after I burned your ass.


And to the guy that said Kobe, you must be real dumb. Using all-time? So a team with 5 washed up old guys will be the best team in history? :facepalm

Please take into consideration at what level of career they are at. For lebron, all 3 of them were in their prime :lol

[RaininTwos]

92 Blazers.

[swag2011]

Don't forget about the GOAT'S EPIC 8 point game that series. Let's refresh our memory shall we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFe8KUEQdn4

[ripthekik]

Don't forget about the GOAT'S EPIC 8 point game that series. Let's refresh our memory shall we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFe8KUEQdn4
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
omfg i busted out laughing

GOAT :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Droid101]

Kobe lost with a Top 5 Center of all-time, a Top 10 PG of all-time, and a top 5 PF of all-time in 2004.
ERRRR! False.

Malone was severely injured by the finals and Gary Payton was sitting in the corner waiting to shoot threes all season (at a piss poor 25% rate in the playoffs).

So, no.

[Jimmy2k8]

Kobe lost with a Top 5 Center of all-time, a Top 10 PG of all-time, and a top 5 PF of all-time in 2004.
........

A top 5 PF of all time that went down with an injury in the series (if my memory serves right)and an out of prime, broken down Gary Payton who didn't fit in the triangle offense.

I'd say that's worse than Lebron choking with another superstar and a top 5 PF.:rolleyes:

[ripthekik]

Not two. Not three. Not four. Not five.  Not six. Not seven... but EIGHT points.
:roll: :roll:


When NBA 2K do the Lebron Challenge you have to get Sweep 4-0 in the Finals, miss a lot of clutch shoots, and score 8 points and lost in a finals game.
:roll: :roll:

[get these NETS]

92 Blazers.
looked it up

and while that was a stacked team, only one member of the blazers made first second or third team all nba


sixers team that lost to blazers in 77 had 2 players on second team all nba...only 2 teams back then

not a scientific comparison because sometimes those lists are bullshit, but sixers team was more stacked in my opinion

[DaSeba5]

Wait we were stacked? I thought our bench sucked and was no match for Chicago in the ECF?

[NOHCP3]

That team wasn't anywhere closed to stacked.

[DaSeba5]

In fact, Dallas had better depth than we had. They were the better team; we just had the better talent (mainly the big 3).

We lost, it happened. We made up for it. Now on to 2012-2013.

[kennethgriffin]

Kobe lost with a Top 5 Center of all-time, a Top 10 PG of all-time, and a top 5 PF of all-time in 2004.


when the kobe/shaq lakers won... it was all shaq

when the kobe/shaq lakers lost... it was all kobe

:sleeping

[ripthekik]

In fact, Dallas had better depth than we had. They were the better team; we just had the better talent (mainly the big 3).

We lost, it happened. We made up for it. Now on to 2012-2013.
So what was the number 1 reason why you lost?

BTW Dallas had ONE top 10 player. The rest were defensive or role players.
The heat top 3 alone playing like 38 minutes is more than enough to cover the lack of a bench. You even had Haslem, a great role player.

[Gotterdammerung]

Other candidates:
1969 Lakers with Wilt, West and Baylor. Granted, Wilt was 2 years past his peak, but he was still in his prime. Coach Van Breda Kolff misused him horribly. West had a long prime, and his unparalleled play made him the Finals MVP that series. Tho Baylor was past his peak, 4 years after that horrific knee injury in 1964, he was still effective. The bench was thin though. :facepalm

[DaSeba5]

So what was the number 1 reason why you lost?

BTW Dallas had ONE top 10 player. The rest were defensive or role players.
The heat top 3 alone playing like 38 minutes is more than enough to cover the lack of a bench. You even had Haslem, a great role player.

If LeBron played like he did this year than Miami would have won. I'm not a LeBron stan. That made him humble and he grew up.

Why repeat this over and over again? We know LeBron choked.

That doesn't mean we were stacked. All year people laughed on how bad our bench was. As soon we win a title we're extremely stacked.

In fact, after game 1 in the ECF against the Bulls everyone laughed at how Miami had nobody after the big 3.

Dallas also made clutch shots and played terrific zone defense. I have to give them credit. They were terrific.

[Odinn]

2004 Lakers. Backfired.:roll: :roll:

[CelticBaller]

Kobe lost with a Top 5 Center of all-time, a Top 10 PG of all-time, and a top 5 PF of all-time in 2004.
all past their prime :violin:

[kennethgriffin]

2004 Lakers. Backfired.:roll: :roll:


so the kobe/shaq lakers were kobes team afterall
:lebronamazed:

[SilkkTheShocker]

all past their prime :violin:


Shaq was still in his prime and Payton/Malone both averaged 20ppg the season before. They were ****ing stacked

[DaSeba5]

I don't like the Lakers and Kobe, but I don't waste my entire day making threads with agendas about players. If I ever saw Kobe I would definitely want to meet him. Why can't we just respect greatness and enjoy the basketball?

[ripthekik]

If LeBron played like he did this year than Miami would have won. I'm not a LeBron stan. That made him humble and he grew up.

Why repeat this over and over again? We know LeBron choked.

That doesn't mean we were stacked. All year people laughed on how bad our bench was. As soon we win a title we're extremely stacked.

In fact, after game 1 in the ECF against the Bulls everyone laughed at how Miami had nobody after the big 3.

Dallas also made clutch shots and played terrific zone defense. I have to give them credit. They were terrific.
Props. One last thing to consider though, in the playoffs some teams like the Celtics even have only 8 player rotations. To have 3 out of the 5 spots, and 1 decent role player, that's pretty good.


Shaq was still in his prime and Payton/Malone both averaged 20ppg the season before. They were ****ing stacked
Payton was in his 16th season, and he was 36 years old. If you followed him 2 years later as a heat fan (which you're probably not) you'd know how crap he was by then.

Malone was also in his late 30's and was injured.

[ripthekik]

Yes, heat fans, make your decision.

Is it Shaq or Kobe's team? If it's Shaq's team, then why is it mainly Kobe's fault they lost? If it's Kobe's team, then dream away for Lebron ever reaching the 5 ring status of Kobe. Pick your poison.

[swag2011]

I don't like the Lakers and Kobe, but I don't waste my entire day making threads with agendas about players. If I ever saw Kobe I would definitely want to meet him. Why can't we just respect greatness and enjoy the basketball?

Seriously? have you NOT read all the threads your Lebron/heat stans have been making on the front page dissing Kobe and the Lakers and Dwight etc? Every damn day there's a Kobe hate agenda thread, done by Lebron stans. He finally got a ring, so they think they can talk sh*t :oldlol: They're scared of Lakers getting Dwight, cause they know what's up.

[DaSeba5]

Seriously? have you NOT read all the threads your Lebron/heat stans have been making on the front page dissing Kobe and the Lakers and Dwight etc? Every damn day there's a Kobe hate agenda thread, done by Lebron stans. He finally got a ring, so they think they can talk sh*t :oldlol: They're scared of Lakers getting Dwight, cause they know what's up.

1.) Those aren't Heat fans. Those are LeBron stans. They don't represent us in any way.

2.) It goes both ways. LeBron stans do the same thing. They have an agenda as well.

3.) Yes Howard to LA is scary, but I'm up to the challenge.

[thelucifer69]

when the kobe/shaq lakers won... it was all shaq

when the kobe/shaq lakers lost... it was all kobe

:sleeping

Actually that's all Kobe

He was suck that series

Shot ball under 40%

In other way Shaq had great series

[t-rex]

I hate to do this but:

The 1985 Celtics-Prime Kevin McHale, Prime Robert Parish, HOFamer Dennis Johnson, and very good players Scott Wedman, Danny Ainge, and Cedric Maxwell. Oh yea... some guy named Bird was there too.

The 1984 Celtics won the NBA Championship. The 1986 Celtics won the NBA Championship. But the 1985 Team was nearly as dominant.

The 1985 Celtics had the best record in the NBA and the best home record in basketball. Going through the difficult Eastern Conference playoffs, they dropped just a total of 4 games before entering the NBA Finals as huge favorites.

In game 1, famously called the "The Memorial Day Massacre" the Celtics scored 148 points and blew out the Lakers by 34.

From that point forward the Celtics would lose 4 out of 5 to the Lakers and drop the NBA championship at the historic Boston Garden.

And I want to stress, the rest of the series wasn't even close.

The only other game the Celtics won in the series took a buzzer beater shot by Dennis Johnson to do so. It is easily won of the greatest and most mysterious one-week collapses in sports history. And it came out of nowhere. Sports Illustrated once called the 1985 Celtics one of the greatest sports teams of all time not to win a championship.

Because the Celtics of the 1980s had great players and won championships, they are immune from criticism. But what happened to the team in 1985, is easily one of the great failures in NBA history.

Its easy to look back now and recognize the Lakers as the great team they were. But at the time, there was nobody who left Game 1 of the 1985 NBA Finals, and thought Celtics were going to lose the title to the Lakers. (Except maybe Kareem and Magic:oldlol: )

Epic collapse.:facepalm

[NumberSix]

Bill Russell, obviously.

[dunksby]

Malone/Payton both averaged 20ppg the season before. Wanted to get that out before some Kobe stan said "but..but..they were old" :oldlol:
I think this is a stupid thread but this is a stupid response, here is Wade and Bosh's averages the season before:
Bosh: 24/11
Wade: 27/5/7

[Calabis]

Yet another LeBron thread to bash him. Now we just need the Kobe stans in here.

They'll be here, I'm sure the OP blew his Kobe whistle(only heard by his apostles) to let them know it is Lebronhate time on ISH

[IllegalD]

Shaq in 2004 lost with a Top 2 SG all time, Top 10 PG All Time, Top 3 PF all time, and the GOAT coach along with uber-clutch players like Derek Fisher.

[clayton]

2004 Lakers.

[Quickening]

Shaq in 2004 lost with a Top 2 SG all time, Top 10 PG All Time, Top 3 PF all time, and the GOAT coach along with uber-clutch players like Derek Fisher.

This.

Most dominant player ever in Shaq,stacked roster and GOAT coach.

Kobe still found a way to lose.

[ripthekik]

Shaq in 2004 lost with a Top 2 SG all time, Top 10 PG All Time, Top 3 PF all time, and the GOAT coach along with uber-clutch players like Derek Fisher.
Again, quit with this ALL-TIME shit. Otherwise tons of teams will be on this level. Lebron had Shaq in his team as well :confusedshrug:

[ripthekik]

This.

Most dominant player ever in Shaq,stacked roster and GOAT coach.

Kobe still found a way to lose.
So it was Kobe's to lose?
Then it was Kobe's to win as well right? 5 rings :rockon:
Lebron can go sit in a corner, we won't need to discuss about him until at least 2016

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe lost with a Top 5 Center of all-time, a Top 10 PG of all-time, and a top 5 PF of all-time in 2004.
But that PF and PG were old and busted...way past their primes.
Not unlike today's Lakers...except now Kobe is old.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

This.

Most dominant player ever in Shaq,stacked roster and GOAT coach.

Kobe still found a way to lose.
wait, how can it be that KOBE found a way to lose..and not the supposed most dominant player ever? Remember, Kobe was merely a 2nd option, RIGHT?

[Quickening]

wait, how can it be that KOBE found a way to lose..and not the supposed most dominant player ever? Remember, Kobe was merely a 2nd option, RIGHT?
Yes he was, and he actually had a hugely detrimental effect on the team.. if you take him off that Lakers team, they win it all.

[Deuce Bigalow]

wait, how can it be that KOBE found a way to lose..and not the supposed most dominant player ever? Remember, Kobe was merely a 2nd option, RIGHT?
Exactly :oldlol:

Kobe was just along for the ride. He was getting carried by Shaq. It's not the fault of the guy who's just getting carried, right?

[NumberSix]

wait, how can it be that KOBE found a way to lose..and not the supposed most dominant player ever? Remember, Kobe was merely a 2nd option, RIGHT?
Kobe went full out chucker mode and refused to pass to Shaq. Have you not seen that series?

[Freedom Kid7]

Before I mention what OP wants to hear (either '04 Lakers or '11 Heat, whatever they both had a fairly impressive starting line up but beyond that there was nothing of true substance) I wanna share my two cents.

-The Stockton-Malone Jazz had a very good team when they went to the finals. They did lose to the better team both times though, so whatever.

-The 1992 Trailblazers had immense depth, but Jordan had one of his best series against them (Clyde's team)

-The 1977 Philadelphia incident was the Big 3 collapse before '11 happened. (Dr. J's team)

-Without a doubt, the worst and the best example of this occurance has to go to the 1969 Lakers. Wilt, Baylor, West and Goodrich. I mean Jesus Christ that's a good line up and they lost to an inferior team in a terrible manner. West was probably at his best, Wilt and Baylor were past their peak but could still play well, and Goodrich was before his prime but could still play well. And they collapsed like nothing else before.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe went full out chucker mode and refused to pass to Shaq. Have you not seen that series?
Why did they lose by 20 when he only took 13 shots in Game 3?

[NumberSix]

Why did they lose by 20 when he only took 13 shots in Game 3?
Shaq averaged 27PPG on 63% shooting.
Kobe averaged 23PPG on 38% shooting.

This is beyond clear cut.

[ripthekik]

Shaq averaged 27PPG on 63% shooting.
Kobe averaged 23PPG on 38% shooting.

This is beyond clear cut.
so if you want to say Kobe lost it for the lakers, you're saying he also won it for the lakers right?
5 rings, suck on that biitch :rockon:

btw where's my fries.. told u extra salt man.

[NumberSix]

so if you want to say Kobe lost it for the lakers, you're saying he also won it for the lakers right?
No.

[ripthekik]

No.
It was Kobe's fault he averaged 23PPG on 38% shooting and the lakers lost. So how is it that when he produced better stats on other years, he didn't help the lakers win?

Lebron fans :applause:

[NumberSix]

It was Kobe's fault he averaged 23PPG on 38% shooting and the lakers lost. So how is it that when he produced better stats on other years, he didn't help the lakers win?
2000 finals: Shaq takes more shots than Kobe. Lakers win.
2001 finals. Shaq takes more shots than Kobe. Lakers win.
2002 finals. Shaq takes more shots than Kobe. Lakers win.
2004 finals. Kobe takes more shots than Shaq. Lakers lose.


Better player shoots more. You win. Worse player shoots more. You lose.


Pretty fckin simple, right?


by the way. I never said he didn't help them win. He was a crucial contributor when he accepted his role as the #2 man on the team. When he tried to force his way into the #1 spot, they lost because of it.

[Hank]

2000 finals: Shaq takes more shots than Kobe. Lakers win.
2001 finals. Shaq takes more shots than Kobe. Lakers win.
2002 finals. Shaq takes more shots than Kobe. Lakers win.
2004 finals. Kobe takes more shot than Shaq. Lakers lose.


Better player shoots more. You win. Worse player shoots more. You lose.


Pretty fckin simple, right?

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/flashB.gifhttp://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/flashB.gifhttp://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/flashB.gif

[Deuce Bigalow]

2000 finals: Shaq takes more shots than Kobe. Lakers win.
2001 finals. Shaq takes more shots than Kobe. Lakers win.
2002 finals. Shaq takes more shots than Kobe. Lakers win.
2004 finals. Kobe takes more shot than Shaq. Lakers lose.


Better player shoots more. You win. Worse player shoots more. You lose.


Pretty fckin simple, right?
Kobe took more shots than Shaq in '01 and '02 Playoffs

[NumberSix]

Kobe took more shots than Shaq in '01 and '02 Playoffs
do you understand that "playoffs" and "finals" are different words? :confusedshrug:

[StateOfMind12]

Kobe went full out chucker mode and refused to pass to Shaq. Have you not seen that series?
Even though this thread is infested with trolls and this thread is a troll thread, this post needs to be informed.

Kobe did not refuse to pass the ball to Shaq.

Shaq couldn't get the ball because he couldn't get open and he couldn't get open because he was being fronted by Ben and Rasheed Wallace. It was a complete pain in the ass for Shaq to get the ball. It was honestly easier for Shaq to score the ball than it was for him to get the ball. The Lakers tried to force feed him plenty.

Kobe fans don't know this though because most of them just started watching basketball in 2006.

[noosaman]

Kevin Fraudrant

[SilkkTheShocker]

First Lebron wins a ring and than his two dad's kick him out of the house. Rip is having a bad summer. Maybe that welfare will kick in soon, loser. :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

do you understand that "playoffs" and "finals" are different words? :confusedshrug:
I understand. But you know what I mean.

Through the first 3 rounds Kobe averaged more PPG and shot attempts than Shaq.

Just using your logic that more shots = better player

It's isn't true.

[NumberSix]

Shaq couldn't get the ball because he couldn't get open and he couldn't get open because he was being fronted by Ben and Rasheed Wallace. It was a complete pain in the ass for Shaq to get the ball.
This excuse has been DRASTICALLY over exaggerated, but I'll just agree with you to move on to other things.

Let's say your right. Shaq couldn't get the ball as much as he was usually able to. How does that explain Kobe jacking up 5 3's per game on 17%? How does that account for Kobe jacking up 23 shots per game on 38%?

If you're gonna make excuses that Kobe SHOULD shoot that much, you have to holding him accountable for MISSING that much.

[ripthekik]

First Lebron wins a ring and than his two dad's kick him out of the house. Rip is having a bad summer. Maybe that welfare will kick in soon, loser. :oldlol:
I can't help but notice you changed like 5 different lebron avatar pictures today.. wow. Obsessed much? I bet he's on your desktop wallpaper too, you have a folder that's 30 gigs filled with videos and pictures of him. Your room in the basement has about 5 posters of him on the wall, and he is the wallpaper on your cellphone too huh? Am I hurting your feelings?

[NumberSix]

I understand. But you know what I mean.

Through the first 3 rounds Kobe averaged more PPG and shot attempts than Shaq.

Just using your logic that more shots = better player

It's isn't true.
That's not my logic at all. The simple logic is, a 40% shooter shouldn't take that many more shots than a 60% shooter. You just can't waste that many possessions.

It's actually ok for Kobe to shoot more than Shaq, just not THAT MUCH more. It's ok if he averages 1 or 2 more shots, but averaging 6 more than the most dominant player on earth is just dumb. Especially if you're gonna shoot that wildly inefficient.

[Kblaze8855]

The heat arent even a top 10 team to lose in the finals.

[NumberSix]

The heat arent even a top 10 team to lose in the finals.
If you factor in the level of competition, they are. The Heat SHOULD have won that series.

A stacked team losing to an even better team is not as bad as a team losing to a team it should have easily beaten.

[ripthekik]

2000 finals: Shaq takes more shots than Kobe. Lakers win.
2001 finals. Shaq takes more shots than Kobe. Lakers win.
2002 finals. Shaq takes more shots than Kobe. Lakers win.
2004 finals. Kobe takes more shots than Shaq. Lakers lose.

So shouldn't it still be Shaq's fault? He wilted, and let Kobe take more shots :confusedshrug: He should have dominated but he did not, when it was his team. He had a top SG, GP, and KM, but still lost. Sucks for him.

However, if you want to blame Kobe for the loss, going by your logic, Kobe also willed the Lakers to 3 championships because he willingly took less shots.

Thanks biatch, 5 rings :cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

That's not my logic at all. The simple logic is, a 40% shooter shouldn't take that many more shots than a 60% shooter. You just can't waste that many possessions.

It's actually ok for Kobe to shoot more than Shaq, just not THAT MUCH more. It's ok if he averages 1 or 2 more shots, but averaging 6 more than the most dominant player on earth is just dumb. Especially if you're gonna shoot that wildly inefficient.
I agree. That is a logical post. It wouldn't have been a problem if Kobe was shooting like 55 TS% at least which is around Shaq's TS%.

[lebeast666]

So what I'm getting from this thread is that OP is mad. Your boy Kobe ain't got shit on the best

[TheAesirsFinest]

Why do 95% of the people here either pathetically puppy-love LeBron or hate him with a disturbing passion.

[jlauber]

Before I mention what OP wants to hear (either '04 Lakers or '11 Heat, whatever they both had a fairly impressive starting line up but beyond that there was nothing of true substance) I wanna share my two cents.

-The Stockton-Malone Jazz had a very good team when they went to the finals. They did lose to the better team both times though, so whatever.

-The 1992 Trailblazers had immense depth, but Jordan had one of his best series against them (Clyde's team)

-The 1977 Philadelphia incident was the Big 3 collapse before '11 happened. (Dr. J's team)

-Without a doubt, the worst and the best example of this occurance has to go to the 1969 Lakers. Wilt, Baylor, West and Goodrich. I mean Jesus Christ that's a good line up and they lost to an inferior team in a terrible manner. West was probably at his best, Wilt and Baylor were past their peak but could still play well, and Goodrich was before his prime but could still play well. And they collapsed like nothing else before.

If you going to make a post like this, at least do yourself a favor and research it first. GOODRICH was one of THREE Laker players that Wilt essentially replaced. Chamberlain was "traded" for three players, one a 20 pg all-star guard, the other a 10-13 journeyman center, and a throw-in by the name of Jerry Chambers. HOWEVER, GOODRICH and his 13 ppg was lost in the expansion draft. The Lakers went from having the best backcourt in basketball (West, Clark, and Goodrich) down to having ONE (and he missed 20 games that season.) Chamberlain had to replace 42 ppg and 18 rpg.

Furthermore, the Lakers had no depth at all. That combined with perhaps the most inept coach to ever grace the NBA, and the result was a game seven, two point loss (and with a BENCHED Chamberlain sitting out the last five minutes.)

The Lakers did find journeyman backup Johnny Egan, who managed to score 8 ppg as a starter. BUT, his ONE PLAY in the '69 Finals cost the Lakers a 4-1 series romp. LA was leading the series, 2-1, and leading late in game four, 88-87 with only seconds left. Instead of West handling the ball, Van Breda Kolf decided to ride the brilliance of Egan...who was stripped, which led to a buzz-beater by Sam Jones, who never saw the shot go in because he was falling down when he threw it up.

Not only that, but Baylor was on a rapid decline, and it REALLY surfaced in the post-season, when he averaged 15.3 ppg on the worst shooting of any Laker player, ... .385. And, in the Finals he personally cost LA THREE games. In the game three loss, six point loss, he and West combined to shoot 1-14 from the field in the 4th quarter, and for the game, Baylor shot 4-14. In that aformentioned game four, one point loss, Baylor not only shot 2-12 from the floor, he also went 1-6 from the line. And in the game seven, two point loss, while Wilt and his 7-8 shooting from the floor was watching from the bench, Baylor bricked his way to an 8-22 game.

Here was a team with really only TWO players, and they missed winning a title by one boned-headed play, which was probably drawn up by a bone-headed coach.

[NumberSix]

So shouldn't it still be Shaq's fault? He wilted, and let Kobe take more shots :confusedshrug: He should have dominated but he did not, when it was his team. He had a top SG, GP, and KM, but still lost. Sucks for him.

However, if you want to blame Kobe for the loss, going by your logic, Kobe also willed the Lakers to 3 championships because he willingly took less shots.

Thanks biatch, 5 rings :cheers:
Bladers

[lbj23clutch]

He choked. Old news. You may now fap OP.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Malone/Payton both averaged 20ppg the season before. Wanted to get that out before some Kobe stan said "but..but..they were old" :oldlol:
Admit it, you didn't even watch the series.

[ripthekik]

Bladers
What's up, got owned by me AGAIN? You were my biitch the other day and here you come crawling back. Tore you a new one didn't I, cause this is the only thing you got to say back :roll: I went by your logic and you still lost.

Well not surprising someone who can't finish HS can only get this far :confusedshrug:

I'll just give you Good job, good effort! for at least trying :roll:

[NumberSix]

What's up, got owned by me AGAIN? You were my biitch the other day and here you come crawling back. Tore you a new one didn't I, cause this is the only thing you got to say back :roll: I went by your logic and you still lost.

Well not surprising someone who can't finish HS can only get this far :confusedshrug:

I'll just give you Good job, good effort! for at least trying :roll:
Bladers

[ripthekik]

Bladers
Officially my biitch. Go flip more burgers. Gimme the big mac set, and you can keep the change.

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Officially my biitch. Go flip more burgers. Gimme the big mac set, and you can keep the change.
:lol

[NumberSix]

Officially my biitch. Go flip more burgers. Gimme the big mac set, and you can keep the change.
Bladers

[ripthekik]

Bladers
Didn't I tell you it was "Master" instead? Actually it's fine. You can say "Bladers" whenever you want to call me Master too.

[Freedom Kid7]

If you going to make a post like this, at least do yourself a favor and research it first. GOODRICH was one of THREE Laker players that Wilt essentially replaced. Chamberlain was "traded" for three players, one a 20 pg all-star guard, the other a 10-13 journeyman center, and a throw-in by the name of Jerry Chambers. HOWEVER, GOODRICH and his 13 ppg was lost in the expansion draft. The Lakers went from having the best backcourt in basketball (West, Clark, and Goodrich) down to having ONE (and he missed 20 games that season.) Chamberlain had to replace 42 ppg and 18 rpg.
You're right. I'm wrong. I apologize and feel like a dumbass.

Regarding your last point, he didn't have to replace 42 ppg and 18 rpg. If the rpg/ppg stat of the Lakers dropped, it doesn't mean they're a lesser team. Wilt could have contributed with intangibles/nonstat factors. Sometimes stats don't tell the whole story. Look at the sixers of 1985 when they drafted Barkley. They should've done more damage, but they didn't. Yet statistically they were solid. Sometimes stats aren't good indicators of stuff

Furthermore, the Lakers had no depth at all. That combined with perhaps the most inept coach to ever grace the NBA, and the result was a game seven, two point loss (and with a BENCHED Chamberlain sitting out the last five minutes.)
Not completely true there. First off, the Lakers actually had a head coach that season. The Celtics did not have a true head coach. It was just Russell. So the coach argument was invalid. Now, did the coach screw up with benching Wilt? Sure. However, Wilt had five fouls so putting myself in his shoes, I see why he did it. Oh, and if you lose a game you lose a game. It isn't made by a mental error by a coach. It was made by cultivating mistakes that peak at stupidity with the coach's error. Wilt's FT% were awful that game, and that certainly doesn't help. Also, regarding the depth of the team, they had 4 guys at at least 12 ppg and the whole roster had pretty impressive 36minute stats. And the Celtics crew may have been filled with HOFers, but most of them weren't in their prime. Hondo didn't enter his true prime yet. Russell was a dinosaur. The Jones's weren't all that young either. Lakers weren't that undermanned.

The Lakers did find journeyman backup Johnny Egan, who managed to score 8 ppg as a starter. BUT, his ONE PLAY in the '69 Finals cost the Lakers a 4-1 series romp. LA was leading the series, 2-1, and leading late in game four, 88-87 with only seconds left. Instead of West handling the ball, Van Breda Kolf decided to ride the brilliance of Egan...who was stripped, which led to a buzz-beater by Sam Jones, who never saw the shot go in because he was falling down when he threw it up.
Again, one play doesn't decide the game. The Lakers still made mistakes throughout and Wilt missed 9 Goddamn free throws. Two for eleven. That's not even 20%. He's as much to blame, if not more, because his average FT was around 50%, so he should have made at least 3 more, costing 3 points and therefore the game.

Not only that, but Baylor was on a rapid decline, and it REALLY surfaced in the post-season, when he averaged 15.3 ppg on the worst shooting of any Laker player, ... .385. And, in the Finals he personally cost LA THREE games. In the game three loss, six point loss, he and West combined to shoot 1-14 from the field in the 4th quarter, and for the game, Baylor shot 4-14. In that aformentioned game four, one point loss, Baylor not only shot 2-12 from the floor, he also went 1-6 from the line. And in the game seven, two point loss, while Wilt and his 7-8 shooting from the floor was watching from the bench, Baylor bricked his way to an 8-22 game.
Baylor was past his prime. True. However, his shooting slump isn't necessarily his fault. Defense matters. That is part of the reason to blame his shooting. He also got 9 rebounds and 4 assists, so he certainly wasn't garbage. He averaged 25/11/5 on .447 in the regular season. That's not bad. He was still an established decent player. However, come playoff time his game decreased as defense increased. He is a reason why I think what I think

Here was a team with really only TWO players, and they missed winning a title by one boned-headed play, which was probably drawn up by a bone-headed coach.
If you lose by a single play like you are making the case to be, you do not deserve to win. My point still stands. The 1969 had a 2-0 lead going into game 3 and they blew that. That was the first time that happened. They had three strong players and were huge favorites. And they lost.
To each their own, and I get why you disagree, but they had a great assortment of talent (like Miami did in '11 and Philly in '77) but came up short for a various number of reasons

[DaSeba5]

It's not healthy to hate a guy you don't know this much.

[Gotterdammerung]

In fact, none of the teams listed make the Greatest Coulda Shoulda Woulda teams Ever™ list here (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170045). :no:

[jlauber]

To each their own, and I get why you disagree, but they had a great assortment of talent (like Miami did in '11 and Philly in '77) but came up short for a various number of reasons

You brought up some valid points. And it was certainly Wilt's worst post-season and Finals of his career, too (although it could be argued that he still outplayed Russell.)

Enjoyed the discussion...

:cheers:

[The Iron Fist]

Yes he was, and he actually had a hugely detrimental effect on the team.. if you take him off that Lakers team, they win it all.
So name every year Shaq won a title before Kobe. Should be easy since all that has to be dome is remove Kobe from the team.

[Brickz187]

I really don't get this idiotic logic that Kobe somehow doesn't get credit for his 5 rings because he played with Shaq. People need to let it go. Kobe has 5 rings and helped win ALL 5 rings. Let it go already.

[LikeABosh]

The Heat are champs and Lebron is FMVP. You can suck his big, fat , royal ****.

[b1imtf]

So it was Kobe's to lose?
Then it was Kobe's to win as well right? 5 rings :rockon:
Lebron can go sit in a corner, we won't need to discuss about him until at least 2016
Nah, In 04 he started to take over the team

[KyrieTheFuture]

Seriously unless LeBron went to town on you, your sister's or your mother's ass you have no reason to disrespect him this much. Hate all you want but the disrespect you have for him is astounding.

[I LUV KOBE]

True, Lebrick 2011 has the most stacked team to lost in the finals.. Lebrick cost their team a real 1 ring.. Even with wade and bosh carried him, he still choked.. Lebrick knows he cant win in a regular season thats why he takes his chance during the lock out season to win cause he knows this was the only chance for him to get his first .5 cheap/worthless ring..

[Freedom Kid7]

You brought up some valid points. And it was certainly Wilt's worst post-season and Finals of his career, too (although it could be argued that he still outplayed Russell.)

Enjoyed the discussion...

:cheers:
Agreed :cheers: . I have two respectful questions for you jlauber:
1. What was Wilt's best season in your opinion?
2. Where do you find all your stats?

[williams012]

Yes, heat fans, make your decision.

Is it Shaq or Kobe's team? If it's Shaq's team, then why is it mainly Kobe's fault they lost? If it's Kobe's team, then dream away for Lebron ever reaching the 5 ring status of Kobe. Pick your poison.

Same goes for the Kobe stans. They were ALL calling it Wades team, so why was it Lebrons fault each time they lost?

[NumberSix]

True, Lebrick 2011 has the most stacked team to lost in the finals.. Lebrick cost their team a real 1 ring.. Even with wade and bosh carried him, he still choked.. Lebrick knows he cant win in a regular season thats why he takes his chance during the lock out season to win cause he knows this was the only chance for him to get his first .5 cheap/worthless ring..
Kobe's heart

[I LUV KOBE]

Kobe's heart
Now I think you're just being jealous of us Kobe's fan.. Always posting that to get my attention.. Are you really that obsess with me? For you to know, we Kobe's fan always has a special place in Kobe's heart.. I feel sorry for you kid coz Lebrick doesnt even care about you or any of his fan.. He only cares about his stats and his receding hairline.. :lol

[ThePointGuard11]

Now I think you're just being jealous of us Kobe's fan.. Always posting that to get my attention.. Are you really that obsess with me? For you to know, we Kobe's fan always has a special place in Kobe's heart.. I feel sorry for you kid coz Lebrick doesnt even care about you or any of his fan.. He only cares about his stats and his receding hairline.. :lol

:biggums: :wtf:

[Lebron23]

Now I think you're just being jealous of us Kobe's fan.. Always posting that to get my attention.. Are you really that obsess with me? For you to know, we Kobe's fan always has a special place in Kobe's heart.. I feel sorry for you kid coz Lebrick doesnt even care about you or any of his fan.. He only cares about his stats and his receding hairline.. :lol

http://www.funnypicturespace.com/files/700d450a7f97.gif

[Cali Syndicate]

Now I think you're just being jealous of us Kobe's fan.. Always posting that to get my attention.. Are you really that obsess with me? For you to know, we Kobe's fan always has a special place in Kobe's heart.. I feel sorry for you kid coz Lebrick doesnt even care about you or any of his fan.. He only cares about his stats and his receding hairline.. :lol

I knew it. You're 12.

[1987_Lakers]

'84 Lakers (I put blame on Magic, he choked that series away)
'85 Celtics (This team was STACKED, but they did play another all-time great team and Bird was playing injured)
'88 Pistons (Many feel Detroit should have won that year, Isiah got injured and refs called a questionable foul on Laimbeer)

[ThePointGuard11]

'84 Lakers (I put blame on Magic, he choked that series away)
'85 Celtics (This team was STACKED, but they did play another all-time great team and Bird was playing injured)
'88 Pistons (Many feel Detroit should have won that year, Isiah got injured and refs called a questionable foul on Laimbeer)

:applause: I can respect a Lakers fan that admits that it was a questionable call. All of the teams that you listed were pretty stacked.

[I LUV KOBE]

I knew it. You're 12.
You're wrong, Im 15 already..

Edit: Oops I mean by Sept.. :D

[ripthekik]

Same goes for the Kobe stans. They were ALL calling it Wades team, so why was it Lebrons fault each time they lost?
Alright then, if it's Wade's team:
2011: His fault they lost, he couldn't help that his teammate choked on a national level
2012: He put up great all-around numbers even while injured, and gave tremendous help to Lebron to win, so Lebron didn't win convincingly. His 1 ring is same value as Kobe's first 3.

Lebron's team
2011: national choke
2012: he lead his team with 2 stars to the win.

Which one do you prefer? Personally I don't really care.

[WockaVodka]

Now I think you're just being jealous of us Kobe's fan.. Always posting that to get my attention.. Are you really that obsess with me? For you to know, we Kobe's fan always has a special place in Kobe's heart.. I feel sorry for you kid coz Lebrick doesnt even care about you or any of his fan.. He only cares about his stats and his receding hairline.. :lol
:roll:

[PistolPete44]

:roll:
:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Quickening]

:oldlol: :oldlol:
:roll: :lol :applause:

[jlauber]

Agreed :cheers: . I have two respectful questions for you jlauber:
1. What was Wilt's best season in your opinion?
2. Where do you find all your stats?

To answer your second question, I have found many sources throughout the years. A few years ago Harvey Pollack released all 142 (now we find out it was actually 143) H2H games with Russell (scoring and rebounding.) Basketball Reference now has virtually every scoring game that anyone has played in the history of the NBA. Posters here like Julizaver, ThaRegul8r, Psileas, PHILA, and other's have provided info in the last few years. And recently poster fpliii came out with these two links (some info added by the aforementioned posters)...

http://nbastats.prv.pl/

(scroll down and click on the Wilt Chamberlain game logs)

and this new one...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdEpOeFRwY29NRTUtWVlFWVJ5TkFDY 3c#gid=0

I have also read numerous books and articles.


As for your first question, I am not sure there is really an answer. In fact, if you include post-season play, it is almost an impossibility. His worst regular season was 70-71, when he was 34 and coming off of a season in which he shredded his knee. And even his post-season numbers were relatively poor (for him.) BUT, he faced a PRIME Kareem, in perhaps Kareem's greatest season, in five regular season games, and then in five post-season games, and nearly matched him in scoring, while outrebounding and outshooting him. One can only wonder what a prime Chamberlain would have dealt.

Of course, he was injured for much of the 69-70 season, missing 70 games. But, what was interesting though, was that in his first nine games that season, and before he was injured, he was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg, and on .579 shooting. This came about because his new coach that season, Joe Mullaney, had asked him to become the focal point of the offense. He pounded centers like Unseld, Rule, Boerwinkle, and even Kareem in those first nine games.

And he came back from that devastating injury way ahead of schedule, too. And even at considerably less than 100%, he hung the only 20-20-.600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on .625 shooting), which included a "must-win" game six of 45 points on 20-27 shooting.

His 64-65 season would have been among the greatest statistical seasons ever...except that he had SEVERAL that were better than that. However, it may have been his greatest post-season ever against Russell (although '67 was certainly right there.)

He was accused of being a "stats-padder" in his 62-63 season, when he averaged 44.8 ppg, 24.3 rpg, and shot a then record .528 from the field...on a 31-49 team. However, a closer look actually reveals a Chamberlain who came out and played his heart out every game, even for a pathetic cast of clowns roster that was perhaps the worst ever assembled in NBA history. Wilt played 47.6 mpg, and while his team had that 31-49 record, they lost 35 games by single digits (and were only involved in eight games decided by 20+ points....going 4-4 in those.) And their point differential was only -2.1 ppg. And even though they could only go 1-8 against the Celtics that season (and their NINE HOFers), FIVE of the games were very close, and his team won another. And in his H2H's with Russell, he not only outrebounded him, he outscored him by a 38-14 ppg margin.

MANY "experts" rank Wilt's 61-62 as not only the NBA's greatest season, but some have even claimed that it was the greatest ever by an athlete in a major team sport. His numbers were unfathomable, of course, but think about this. He averaged 39.7 ppg against Russell in ten H2H games, and a staggering 52.7 ppg against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy in ten H2H games (and then 43.7 ppg in ten more in 62-63.)

Personally, I believe his three greatest seasons were from '65-66 thru '67-68. Of those three, most "experts" will claim his '67 season was his greatest (especially since he finally won a ring.) He was truly the best player, and by a mile, in those three years, but statistically his 65-66 may have been his greatest season. He absolutely murdered Bellamy in ten H2H games, Thurmond in nine, and including the playoffs, he slaughtered Russell in 14 games. Of those 33 games, you might find three in which he was slightly outplayed. And in the remaining 30, there were many in which he just destroyed those guys.

So, I apologize for not giving you a clear-cut answer to your first question, but the reality was, he had so MANY outtanding seasons, that it just impossible to cite just one.

[cavsfanatic]

lol people are funny. That Heat team was not stacked, they had 3 players.

Oh yeah look at how you named the question. "Which player in Nba history has lost in the finals with the most stacked team?" you really dumb if you think that Heat team was the most stacked team to the lose in the Finals...

[jlauber]

'84 Lakers (I put blame on Magic, he choked that series away)'85 Celtics (This team was STACKED, but they did play another all-time great team and Bird was playing injured)
'88 Pistons (Many feel Detroit should have won that year, Isiah got injured and refs called a questionable foul on Laimbeer)

Yep..."Tragic" Johnson. With his seven game series numbers of 18.1 ppg, 13.6 apg, and on .560 shooting, and with a team-leading 7.7 rpg. While Bird shot .488 and Kareem an even worse .481.

I will agree with you that the LAKERS collectively choked that series away. Hell, even Bird admitted that LA should have SWEPT them. But having said, though, it must be admitted that the series went seven games, and Boston, with a better seasonal record, won the seventh game at home.

Of course, the Lakers easily beat Boston in the '85 and '87 Finals, behind brilliant series' by "Tragic." And "Tragic's" '87 Finals was one of the greatest ever, by anyone.

[Freedom Kid7]

To answer your second question, I have found many sources throughout the years. A few years ago Harvey Pollack released all 142 (now we find out it was actually 143) H2H games with Russell (scoring and rebounding.) Basketball Reference now has virtually every scoring game that anyone has played in the history of the NBA. Posters here like Julizaver, ThaRegul8r, Psileas, PHILA, and other's have provided info in the last few years. And recently poster fpliii came out with these two links (some info added by the aforementioned posters)...

http://nbastats.prv.pl/

(scroll down and click on the Wilt Chamberlain game logs)

and this new one...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdEpOeFRwY29NRTUtWVlFWVJ5TkFDY 3c#gid=0

I have also read numerous books and articles.


As for your first question, I am not sure there is really an answer. In fact, if you include post-season play, it is almost an impossibility. His worst regular season was 70-71, when he was 34 and coming off of a season in which he shredded his knee. And even his post-season numbers were relatively poor (for him.) BUT, he faced a PRIME Kareem, in perhaps Kareem's greatest season, in five regular season games, and then in five post-season games, and nearly matched him in scoring, while outrebounding and outshooting him. One can only wonder what a prime Chamberlain would have dealt.

Of course, he was injured for much of the 69-70 season, missing 70 games. But, what was interesting though, was that in his first nine games that season, and before he was injured, he was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg, and on .579 shooting. This came about because his new coach that season, Joe Mullaney, had asked him to become the focal point of the offense. He pounded centers like Unseld, Rule, Boerwinkle, and even Kareem in those first nine games.

And he came back from that devastating injury way ahead of schedule, too. And even at considerably less than 100%, he hung the only 20-20-.600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on .625 shooting), which included a "must-win" game six of 45 points on 20-27 shooting.

His 64-65 season would have been among the greatest statistical seasons ever...except that he had SEVERAL that were better than that. However, it may have been his greatest post-season ever against Russell (although '67 was certainly right there.)

He was accused of being a "stats-padder" in his 62-63 season, when he averaged 44.8 ppg, 24.3 rpg, and shot a then record .528 from the field...on a 31-49 team. However, a closer look actually reveals a Chamberlain who came out and played his heart out every game, even for a pathetic cast of clowns roster that was perhaps the worst ever assembled in NBA history. Wilt played 47.6 mpg, and while his team had that 31-49 record, they lost 35 games by single digits (and were only involved in eight games decided by 20+ points....going 4-4 in those.) And their point differential was only -2.1 ppg. And even though they could only go 1-8 against the Celtics that season (and their NINE HOFers), FIVE of the games were very close, and his team won another. And in his H2H's with Russell, he not only outrebounded him, he outscored him by a 38-14 ppg margin.

MANY "experts" rank Wilt's 61-62 as not only the NBA's greatest season, but some have even claimed that it was the greatest ever by an athlete in a major team sport. His numbers were unfathomable, of course, but think about this. He averaged 39.7 ppg against Russell in ten H2H games, and a staggering 52.7 ppg against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy in ten H2H games (and then 43.7 ppg in ten more in 62-63.)

Personally, I believe his three greatest seasons were from '65-66 thru '67-68. Of those three, most "experts" will claim his '67 season was his greatest (especially since he finally won a ring.) He was truly the best player, and by a mile, in those three years, but statistically his 65-66 may have been his greatest season. He absolutely murdered Bellamy in ten H2H games, Thurmond in nine, and including the playoffs, he slaughtered Russell in 14 games. Of those 33 games, you might find three in which he was slightly outplayed. And in the remaining 30, there were many in which he just destroyed those guys.

So, I apologize for not giving you a clear-cut answer to your first question, but the reality was, he had so MANY outtanding seasons, that it just impossible to cite just one.
Thanks for the links man. The thing that's always impressed me about Wilt's '62 season was the fact he played 48.5 minutes per game. I mean, holy atheist christ that's a lot of minutes. Most games are 48 minutes, but he played the extra 30 seconds (I figure cuz of overtime and all, but still impressive nonetheless).

[jlauber]

Thanks for the links man. The thing that's always impressed me about Wilt's '62 season was the fact he played 48.5 minutes per game. I mean, holy atheist christ that's a lot of minutes. Most games are 48 minutes, but he played the extra 30 seconds (I figure cuz of overtime and all, but still impressive nonetheless).

Along the same lines...a couple of other interesting points:

Chamberlain played all but 8 minutes and 33 seconds of the entire 61-62 season. And while he never fouled out of an NBA game, he was THROWN out of that one game in that season. Also, he played in six separate streaks of three games-in three nights, another three separate streaks of four games-in four nights, and even yet another separate streak of five games-in five straight nights.

Oh, and he AVERAGED 47.2 mpg in his entire 160 post-season game career, including a 47.1 mpg average in his LAST post-season (which covered 17 games.)

[pauk]

Larry Bird & Magic Johnson.... also Lakers 2004... just to name a few...


...and "Which player in NBA history got to the Finals with the WORST team to ever be in a Finals?".... Lebron/Cavs 2007... and then Iverson/Sixers 2001...

[willds09]

lebron bum ass:confusedshrug:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt - '69, '70, '73 Finals

35.7 FT% combined. 27.0 FT% in the series clinchers combined.
He had Jerry West who averaged 38 ppg in the '69 series, the 2nd highest ever in a finals series.

[Smoke117]

Kobe lost with a Top 5 Center of all-time, a Top 10 PG of all-time, and a top 5 PF of all-time in 2004.


Malone was injured and Payton just lost his head in the playoffs...and that's a Celtics fan defending him. Not to mention that Pistons team is incredibly underrated. That defense was absolutely devastating.

[DTreats]

Shaq lost with a Top 10 all time player, a top 10 PG all-time, a top 3 PF all-time, aka 3 first ballot hall of famers.

That was Shaqs team

[RazorBaLade]

Lakers 04 lmfao. We started slava medvenko for half those games you ******s. Malone was dead and there was no one else on that team besides an awful payton kobe shaq and fisher. What a stacked team.

I take 11 heat tho and as pauk said magic/bird teams are a good bet as well.

[MisterAmazing]

Kobe lost with a Top 5 Center of all-time, a Top 10 PG of all-time, and a top 5 PF of all-time in 2004.

came here to post this

[The Iron Fist]

came here to post this
Thought it was shaqs team?

[LT Ice Cream]

Lakers 04 lmfao. We started slava medvenko for half those games you ******s. Malone was dead and there was no one else on that team besides an awful payton kobe shaq and fisher. What a stacked team.

I take 11 heat tho and as pauk said magic/bird teams are a good bet as well.


Doesn't matter if they played awful. That's still the very definition of a stacked team you dumb fk.

[ripthekik]

Doesn't matter if they played awful. That's still the very definition of a stacked team you dumb fk.
It doesn't matter that they played awful. But does it matter they were both 36+ age and in their 16th+ season? They were both few seasons away from retirement, far from their primes.

Using the -all-time PG, all-time PF is dumb because then you will have teams that were even more stacked. Heat 06- Wade, Shaq, Payton, Alonzo Mourning, Jason William, etc etc

And if you really want to say the 2004 even considering the old Payton and Malone, it's still Shaq's team. Funny the guy up there with the shaq avatar pointed out the 2004 team. How ironic. :rolleyes:

[Inactive]

Lakers 04 lmfao. We started slava medvenko for half those games you ******s. Malone was dead and there was no one else on that team besides an awful payton kobe shaq and fisher. What a stacked team.

I take 11 heat tho and as pauk said magic/bird teams are a good bet as well.The 11 Heat started 4>ppg 30%> shooting Mike Bibby, and 3/5/37% Joel Anthony. Until the actual Finals series, Malone played fairly well. 04 LA was every bit as much of a superteam as Miami. IMO 04 LA had better pieces, all things considered. They just had a lot of personal drama, and chemistry issues.

[Champ]

Yep..."Tragic" Johnson. With his seven game series numbers of 18.1 ppg, 13.6 apg, and on .560 shooting, and with a team-leading 7.7 rpg. While Bird shot .488 and Kareem an even worse .481.

I will agree with you that the LAKERS collectively choked that series away. Hell, even Bird admitted that LA should have SWEPT them. But having said, though, it must be admitted that the series went seven games, and Boston, with a better seasonal record, won the seventh game at home.

Of course, the Lakers easily beat Boston in the '85 and '87 Finals, behind brilliant series' by "Tragic." And "Tragic's" '87 Finals was one of the greatest ever, by anyone.

For the '84 series, I think it's important to look beyond numbers and remember the context. Though Magic's overall numbers were great, he made costly mistakes at key moments that the Celtics were able to capitalize on. And plucking out Bird's shooting percentage isn't at all indicative of the great series he had, which included clutch performances of 29/21 and 34/17 in the pivotal games 4 and 5.

I also don't think the Lakers "easily" beat Boston in '87, despite their superior talent. Despite this and injuries, the C's hung tough, and if the Lakers weren't so fortunate in game 4, the series would've gone to the brink.

[Arroyo8]

kobe

[RazorBaLade]

Doesn't matter if they played awful. That's still the very definition of a stacked team you dumb fk.

It kind of does matter that one of the biggest pieces of the team, the 3rd best player goes down to an injury in the finals and they have to play slava medvenko. That kind of kills the whole the team is super stacked argument.


The 11 Heat started 4>ppg 30%> shooting Mike Bibby, and 3/5/37% Joel Anthony. Until the actual Finals series, Malone played fairly well. 04 LA was every bit as much of a superteam as Miami. IMO 04 LA had better pieces, all things considered. They just had a lot of personal drama, and chemistry issues.

Yeah but they also had Wade lebron and bosh. 04 did not have that.

[Champ]

I hate to do this but:

The 1985 Celtics-Prime Kevin McHale, Prime Robert Parish, HOFamer Dennis Johnson, and very good players Scott Wedman, Danny Ainge, and Cedric Maxwell. Oh yea... some guy named Bird was there too.

The 1984 Celtics won the NBA Championship. The 1986 Celtics won the NBA Championship. But the 1985 Team was nearly as dominant.

The 1985 Celtics had the best record in the NBA and the best home record in basketball. Going through the difficult Eastern Conference playoffs, they dropped just a total of 4 games before entering the NBA Finals as huge favorites.

In game 1, famously called the "The Memorial Day Massacre" the Celtics scored 148 points and blew out the Lakers by 34.

From that point forward the Celtics would lose 4 out of 5 to the Lakers and drop the NBA championship at the historic Boston Garden.

And I want to stress, the rest of the series wasn't even close.

The only other game the Celtics won in the series took a buzzer beater shot by Dennis Johnson to do so. It is easily won of the greatest and most mysterious one-week collapses in sports history. And it came out of nowhere. Sports Illustrated once called the 1985 Celtics one of the greatest sports teams of all time not to win a championship.

Because the Celtics of the 1980s had great players and won championships, they are immune from criticism. But what happened to the team in 1985, is easily one of the great failures in NBA history.

Its easy to look back now and recognize the Lakers as the great team they were. But at the time, there was nobody who left Game 1 of the 1985 NBA Finals, and thought Celtics were going to lose the title to the Lakers. (Except maybe Kareem and Magic:oldlol: )

Epic collapse.:facepalm

Great post, Rex.

I remember this season well and everything you said here is true.

There are two key points to remember about this series that played a big role in the outcome:

1. Larry Bird was nursing an injured elbow and finger, the latter reputedly the result of a scuffle he got into at a Chelsea bar during the ECF against Philly. After a fantastic shooting season he slumped badly for the remainder of the playoffs.

2. The resurgence of KAJ. Give the big man credit, he stepped up big time after the Memorial Day blowout and played fantastic basketball the rest of the series, in what was arguably the last dominant playoff stretch of his great career.

[Lordragoonx1x]

Now I think you're just being jealous of us Kobe's fan.. Always posting that to get my attention.. Are you really that obsess with me? For you to know, we Kobe's fan always has a special place in Kobe's heart.. I feel sorry for you kid coz Lebrick doesnt even care about you or any of his fan.. He only cares about his stats and his receding hairline.. :lol

:wtf: :wtf: Dam man you gay or what.

[BlueandGold]

As far as total meltdowns and a a team/player playing way way below his capable level of play it's gotta be 2011 miami heat. Even though Wade was dominant in that series (ppl were talking about him winning FMVP even in the loss), Lebron averaged less than 18 points a game (compared to his usual 28 ppg) and scored 2 or less points in 4 straight fourth quarters... he also froze up and made key mental mistakes in countless huge moments of the game and if he even would have showed up with 75% of his usual capacity the heat would have won.

[ShaqAttack3234]

People often confuse a teams that are generally talented with stacked.

Stacked teams aren't only talented, but they're deep as well.

Recent examples of stacked teams are the '93-'96 Sonics, the '00 Blazers and the '02 Kings. Those teams come to mind whenever I hear stacked.

As far as most stacked teams to lose in the finals, this isn't in order, but these ones come to mind.

1977 Sixers- one of many examples of the more talented team not winning.

1983 Lakers- They lost to an all-time great team that essentially had 5 all-stars(4 officially made the all-star team that season and another was an '82 all-star and that year's 6th man of the year).

1984 Lakers- Another example of the most talented team not winning.

1985 Celtics- They lost to an extremely stacked opponent, so this is understandable. Especially with Bird clearly limited by injuries.

1988 Pistons

1990 and 1992 Blazers

1991 Lakers- Worthy and Scott both missed the last game, though. But they were behind 3-1 anyway. Worthy had been injured in game 6 of the WCF, iirc,

1993 Suns

1995 Magic

1996 Sonics

Lebron's '11 team was arguably the most talented in the league that year, though due to their big 3, and most agree they'd have won the finals if Lebron plays close to his usual level, or if they don't blow the game 2 lead. Their opponent was a surprise, I didn't expect Dallas to lose in the 1st round like some, but I certainly wasn't thinking about them winning a title after they lost Caron Butler.


Malone/Payton both averaged 20ppg the season before. Wanted to get that out before some Kobe stan said "but..but..they were old" :oldlol:

Malone was hobbled and couldn't even really play that series. Malone was also out for half the regular season. When he did play in the regular season and the first 3 rounds of the playoffs, he fit very well and contributed with his mid-range shot, passing, rebounding and post defense which made him not only a good fit in the triangle, but an ideal fit with Shaq, much like Horace Grant in '95 and '96 and the best PF he had played with by far since at least those 2 years in Orlando. A healthy Malone was easily the best 3rd guy the Shaq/Kobe/Phil Lakers had, unfortunately, he couldn't play in the most important series.

But Payton was a poor fit, and he declined greatly in '04. He was still about average for a starting PG, but he was trash in the playoffs (8 ppg, 5 apg, 37 FG%) and especially the finals(getting outscored by Billups 21 ppg to 4 ppg while shooting 32%)

So this is a terrible attempt on your part.


Shaq was still in his prime and Payton/Malone both averaged 20ppg the season before. They were ****ing stacked

Shaq was still elite, but a little past his prime, his prime was really '98-'02 or '03. '03 was the last of 10 consecutive seasons where he averaged between 26-30 ppg and about 28 ppg on average. He averaged 21.5 in '04, some of that had to do with having 2 more scorers than he had in several seasons(though Malone only played 1/2 the season), but he had played on stacked teams in '95, '96 and '98 and still averaged 27-29 ppg on those teams.

[jlauber]

People often confuse a teams that are generally talented with stacked.

Stacked teams aren't only talented, but they're deep as well.

Recent examples of stacked teams are the '93-'96 Sonics, the '00 Blazers and the '02 Kings. Those teams come to mind whenever I hear stacked.

As far as most stacked teams to lose in the finals, this isn't in order, but these ones come to mind.

1977 Sixers- one of many examples of the more talented team not winning.

1983 Lakers- They lost to an all-time great team that essentially had 5 all-stars(4 officially made the all-star team that season and another was an '82 all-star and that year's 6th man of the year).

1984 Lakers- Another example of the most talented team not winning.

1985 Celtics- They lost to an extremely stacked opponent, so this is understandable. Especially with Bird clearly limited by injuries.

1988 Pistons

1990 and 1992 Blazers

1991 Lakers- Worthy and Scott both missed the last game, though. But they were behind 3-1 anyway. Worthy had been injured in game 6 of the WCF, iirc,

1993 Suns

1995 Magic

1996 Sonics

Lebron's '11 team was arguably the most talented in the league that year, though due to their big 3, and most agree they'd have won the finals if Lebron plays close to his usual level, or if they don't blow the game 2 lead. Their opponent was a surprise, I didn't expect Dallas to lose in the 1st round like some, but I certainly wasn't thinking about them winning a title after they lost Caron Butler.



Malone was hobbled and couldn't even really play that series. Malone was also out for half the regular season. When he did play in the regular season and the first 3 rounds of the playoffs, he fit very well and contributed with his mid-range shot, passing, rebounding and post defense which made him not only a good fit in the triangle, but an ideal fit with Shaq, much like Horace Grant in '95 and '96 and the best PF he had played with by far since at least those 2 years in Orlando. A healthy Malone was easily the best 3rd guy the Shaq/Kobe/Phil Lakers had, unfortunately, he couldn't play in the most important series.

But Payton was a poor fit, and he declined greatly in '04. He was still about average for a starting PG, but he was trash in the playoffs (8 ppg, 5 apg, 37 FG%) and especially the finals(getting outscored by Billups 21 ppg to 4 ppg while shooting 32%)

So this is a terrible attempt on your part.



Shaq was still elite, but a little past his prime, his prime was really '98-'02 or '03. '03 was the last of 10 consecutive seasons where he averaged between 26-30 ppg and about 28 ppg on average. He averaged 21.5 in '04, some of that had to do with having 2 more scorers than he had in several seasons(though Malone only played 1/2 the season), but he had played on stacked teams in '95, '96 and '98 and still averaged 27-29 ppg on those teams.


Pretty much spot on.

:applause:

And I vividly recall that '04 Lakers team. "Experts" were tabbing them for an dominating world title before the season even began. Why? Both Malone and Payton were well past their primes. And, has been mentioned, Malone was playing hurt in the post-season, while Payton was atrocious (and very over-rated at that point in his career.)

On top of that, Jackson lost control of Kobe in the post-season. Shaq had a 38 point game, on 16-21 shooting, against a mostly single coverage by DPOY Wallace, but Kobe kept firing blanks. Even Jack Ramsey made the comment that Shaq could have scored 60 in that game.

I am a huge Kobe fan, and I will defend him in much of his post-season career, BUT, he was definitely a BIG factor in the Lakers getting blown out by the Pistons in that Finals. Of course, the Lakers had very little ACTUAL firepower aside from Shaq and Kobe. But, had Kobe at least played at his regular season level, the series might have been more competitive.

[jlauber]

BTW, I have long maintained that had Wilt stayed in Philly, and the Sixers could have kept the core of their '67 title team, that they might have gone on to win 3-4 more rings. I have no doubt that the '69 Sixers, WITH Chamberlain, would have been the best team in the league. And barring injuries, which just killed them in the '68 post-season, they would probably have romped to a title.

[Smoke117]

People need to shut up about payton averaging 20ppg the previous season in 03. He was averaging 20ppg on 18 shots. You know how many players there were in the league in 03 who could do that? A LOT. Payton had no business taking 18 shots a game anymore and was no legit 20 point scorer in the league anymore the season before he joined the Lakers.

[iamgine]

I would vote for Devean George.



He had Shaq, Kobe, Payton and Malone and still lost.

[Freedom Kid7]

Along the same lines...a couple of other interesting points:

Chamberlain played all but 8 minutes and 33 seconds of the entire 61-62 season. And while he never fouled out of an NBA game, he was THROWN out of that one game in that season. Also, he played in six separate streaks of three games-in three nights, another three separate streaks of four games-in four nights, and even yet another separate streak of five games-in five straight nights.

Oh, and he AVERAGED 47.2 mpg in his entire 160 post-season game career, including a 47.1 mpg average in his LAST post-season (which covered 17 games.)
How the hell did he get thrown out of a game but not foul out? Serious question.

[jlauber]

How the hell did he get thrown out of a game but not foul out? Serious question.

Without looking into the exact situation, I believe he actually accumulated THREE technical fouls in that game.

BTW, Wilt averaged 2.0 PF's in his 1045 regular season career, and then 2.5 PF's in his 160 post-season career. The reality was, Wilt was seldom even close to being in foul trouble for the vast majority of his career.

[lilgodfather1]

Can Durant get some love in here? Dude had the best 6th man in the league on his team, a top 5 player, a DPOY candidate, and a top 5 C in the league.

[MisterAmazing]

I would vote for Devean George.



He had Shaq, Kobe, Payton and Malone and still lost.
:roll:

That was obviously Kareem Rush's team :D

[Freedom Kid7]

Without looking into the exact situation, I believe he actually accumulated THREE technical fouls in that game.

BTW, Wilt averaged 2.0 PF's in his 1045 regular season career, and then 2.5 PF's in his 160 post-season career. The reality was, Wilt was seldom even close to being in foul trouble for the vast majority of his career.
Three technical fouls? Jeez :lol . And I've always heard stuff that Wilt did not pick up that many fouls.

Back to being on topic, I must mention dem '04 Lakers and dem '11 Heat. I mentioned them in my first post, but didn't go into it extensively. '04 Kobe played like crap. Part of that was because the Pistons had incredible defense, and the other part of it is Kobe had a bad series. It was not all that stacked because Malone and Payton were past their peak, but still, they were solid players at their point in their careers. The Pistons also made it impossible to ride Shaq. In that series, the better Team won. The '11 Heat was a little similar. '11 James played like crap. Part of it was due to Dallas's defense and the other part was he just played bad. Wade and Bosh were well established stars. Their team wasn't all that good beyond them, but still, 3 all stars is fairly fortunate.

[Hank]

d-post

[Hank]

Can Durant get some love in here? Dude had the best 6th man in the league on his team, a top 5 player, a DPOY candidate, and a top 5 C in the league.

they creamed the LA Fakers in 5, swept the Mavs, they beat a Spurs team that A LOT of ISH posters were saying is one of the best all-time teams with an unstoppable passing offense and deep as hell.........but against the Heat they're "too young"


:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

BTW, I have long maintained that had Wilt stayed in Philly, and the Sixers could have kept the core of their '67 title team, that they might have gone on to win 3-4 more rings. I have no doubt that the '69 Sixers, WITH Chamberlain, would have been the best team in the league. And barring injuries, which just killed them in the '68 post-season, they would probably have romped to a title.
Nope. Wilt choked too much

He had a teammate in LA that averaged 31-8-4 in the '69 and '70 Playoffs, with 38 ppg in the '69 Finals AND STILL LOST

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_bianchi/files/2011/07/choking-method1.jpg

[dannysc305]

Dude I'm a LeBron fan and even I can admit the OP is correct. I don't remember another player losing with such a stacked team..

Depends how you define stacked, though. The 2011 Heat were more "top heavy" than anything. Our bench and role players were shit that year. Chalmers [Has improved]...Big Z...Dampier...Haslem...Injured Mike Miller...Mike Bibby...James Jones who is strictly a 3 pt specialist... Joel Anthony with no offensive presence whatsoever

[WockaVodka]

Can Durant get some love in here? Dude had the best 6th man in the league on his team, a top 5 player, a DPOY candidate, and a top 5 C in the league.
:wtf: :no: :facepalm

[jlauber]

Nope. Wilt choked too much

He had a teammate in LA that averaged 31-8-4 in the '69 and '70 Playoffs, with 38 ppg in the '69 Finals AND STILL LOST

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/sports_bianchi/files/2011/07/choking-method1.jpg

How about this?


Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points and 14 rebounds. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points. Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points and 18 rebounds. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points and 31 rebounds. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points and 28 rebounds. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points. Thurmond had 9 points in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.

[jlauber]

And continuing...

Julizaver added the following:


19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.


28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.


34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.



And finally, my compilation...


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games. In those two clinching games, Wilt shot 18-33 (.545), while Kareem shot 23-60 (.383.)

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Doesn't change the fact that he choked

He had HCA in the '69 Finals. A 2-0 lead, and a teammate that averaged 38 PPG in the Finals series which is the 2nd highest ever behind MJ's 41 PPG.

Went 4-13 from the freethrow line in a 2 point LOSS in Game 7

[EnoughSaid]

Jlauber highjacking the shit out of this thread. :eek:

[ripthekik]

Lebron's '11 team was arguably the most talented in the league that year, though due to their big 3, and most agree they'd have won the finals if Lebron plays close to his usual level, or if they don't blow the game 2 lead. Their opponent was a surprise, I didn't expect Dallas to lose in the 1st round like some, but I certainly wasn't thinking about them winning a title after they lost Caron Butler.



Malone was hobbled and couldn't even really play that series. Malone was also out for half the regular season. When he did play in the regular season and the first 3 rounds of the playoffs, he fit very well and contributed with his mid-range shot, passing, rebounding and post defense which made him not only a good fit in the triangle, but an ideal fit with Shaq, much like Horace Grant in '95 and '96 and the best PF he had played with by far since at least those 2 years in Orlando. A healthy Malone was easily the best 3rd guy the Shaq/Kobe/Phil Lakers had, unfortunately, he couldn't play in the most important series.

But Payton was a poor fit, and he declined greatly in '04. He was still about average for a starting PG, but he was trash in the playoffs (8 ppg, 5 apg, 37 FG%) and especially the finals(getting outscored by Billups 21 ppg to 4 ppg while shooting 32%)

So this is a terrible attempt on your part.



Shaq was still elite, but a little past his prime, his prime was really '98-'02 or '03. '03 was the last of 10 consecutive seasons where he averaged between 26-30 ppg and about 28 ppg on average. He averaged 21.5 in '04, some of that had to do with having 2 more scorers than he had in several seasons(though Malone only played 1/2 the season), but he had played on stacked teams in '95, '96 and '98 and still averaged 27-29 ppg on those teams.
Good post.
Those lebron fans come in and list this team just because of the names, without knowing anything about it.

and with the Stack/Talent thing, teams play a lot less players in the playoffs. Celtics have a 8-man rotation, other teams too. In the playoffs, the stars play the most minutes.. didn't Lebron play like almost a full game quite a few times this playoffs as well?

You could call them the most talented I agree, it rarely happens in history that you have 2 of the top 3 players and another all-star to compliment them.

[L.A. Jazz]

*1969 LA Lakers:
all i have read about them, they should have easily won this series. Wilt, West and Baylor. but they had a major problem, the coach. (maybe we will say this about the current coach in a few years when we talk about the 2011 - 20?? LA Lakers)

*2004 LA Lakers:
please rewatch the series, the Lakers played like crap and even with all the injuries, Shaq and Kobe were fit and didnt do what they had to do. Kobe wanted to win as the best player (hero ball) and Shaq was passive because he was mad at Kobe. I am pretty sure they would have won with Malone (played great for his age before injury) ,Fisher (3rd leading scorer and the best he ever was) and Fox not being injured. to give the Piston some credit, they played great team basketball and had the deepest big men rotation i have ever seen.

*2011 Miami Heat:
the BIG 3 with some good players should have won, but they let it slip away in game 3 and never recovered. and for that i blame them. Allright, you lost a game you should have won, but if you have the two best players in the NBA (thats how i saw it 2011), you cant be passive and wait for it. go and get it. they learned that the hard way and won 2012, but 2011 is now Nowitzkis ring and like 2004 is Kobe's dark spot in his legacy, the 4th quaters of 2011 are Lebron's.

[ihoopallday]

2010-2011 Heat team. I'm guessing that's the answer you want to hear right?

[Bandito]

Even though this thread is infested with trolls and this thread is a troll thread, this post needs to be informed.

Kobe did not refuse to pass the ball to Shaq.

Shaq couldn't get the ball because he couldn't get open and he couldn't get open because he was being fronted by Ben and Rasheed Wallace. It was a complete pain in the ass for Shaq to get the ball. It was honestly easier for Shaq to score the ball than it was for him to get the ball. The Lakers tried to force feed him plenty.

Kobe fans don't know this though because most of them just started watching basketball in 2006.
I see you're a true fan, I was about to post this but you beat me to it. That's exactly what happened, the pistons won the series by playing as a team and beating the most stacked team at the time.

[Nash]

Kobe fans, there is something seriously wrong with them. You go into any Kobe video on youtube and they're hating on Lebron, you go to any Lebron video and they are still there hating on Lebron. Why so insecure?

[ripthekik]

:mad: :mad: :mad: :cry: :cry:
:roll: :roll:
Wow I had you on a roll there didn't I? :roll:
You must be real mad you had to go chase around all my posts :oldlol:
What's up, can't face the truth of what I post?
Anyways, if you read through this thread you might actually learn something, instead of only posting crap. I'm done with you.
http://i46.tinypic.com/1oarg3.gif

You might want to consider this though:
http://www.apa.org/topics/anger/control.aspx

[LBJ 23]

Phong?

[Nash]

They scurred, dawg. They straight scurred dat Bron shit all over Kobe doe like lil homey, namsaying? Aight nikka peace out den
I am being serious, its weird. Its always like that, they hate on Lebron on Kobe videos and on Lebron videos. And then they walk around calling Lebron stans the biggest trolls. There are so many of them, which is probably understandable since Kobe is the most popular basketballer in the world.. But anyway. Seems like most hate Lebron as much or even more than they love Kobe.

[scandisk_]

Phong?

Nowhere to be found after

http://jerseychaser.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/LeBron-NBA-Championship.png

:lol

[ripthekik]

I am being serious, its weird. Its always like that, they hate on Lebron on Kobe videos and on Lebron videos. And then they walk around calling Lebron stans the biggest trolls. There are so many of them, which is probably understandable since Kobe is the most popular basketballer in the world.. But anyway. Seems like most hate Lebron as much or even more than they love Kobe.
Maybe you missed out on all the threads created by your fellow lebron fans, like PistolPete, because they were so dumb they had to be deleted. Maybe you haven't seen the ":lol :roll: :applause: " posts by Quickening all over the place. Maybe you haven't seen the RRR3 childish eruptions on this page. Oh and all the Hank posts? But yeah.. they might be reasons why.

[Nash]

Maybe you missed out on all the threads created by your fellow lebron fans, like PistolPete, because they were so dumb they had to be deleted. Maybe you haven't seen the ":lol :roll: :applause: " posts by Quickening all over the place. Maybe you haven't seen the RRR3 childish eruptions on this page. Oh and all the Hank posts? But yeah.. they might be reasons why.
The fact that you can name the Lebron stans that did this tells you a lot about how few they are. I can't even name all the Kobe stans that hate on Lebron on a daily basis because there are so damn many of them.

[Inactive]

It kind of does matter that one of the biggest pieces of the team, the 3rd best player goes down to an injury in the finals and they have to play slava medvenko. That kind of kills the whole the team is super stacked argument.



Yeah but they also had Wade lebron and bosh. 04 did not have that.Payton was one season removed from being an all-star. He just didn't play up to expectations in the playoffs. Do the 11 Heat get a pass, because Lebron turned into Andre Iguodala in the Finals?

Malone missed one game. He was playing hurt, but would the 12 Heat have gotten a pass, because Wade had a knee injury?

LA started off loaded with talent, and the expectations were huge. They had some bad luck along the way, but so what? Every stacked team that loses has bad luck, and underperforming players.

[Quickening]

2004 Lakers stacked as fck.. shame their second option spoiled it with shot jacking.:lol :roll: :applause:

[ripthekik]

The fact that you can name the Lebron stans that did this tells you a lot about how few they are. I can't even name all the Kobe stans that hate on Lebron on a daily basis because there are so damn many of them.
No, the fact that I can name them so easily shows how widespread and annoying they are. I only named a few obvious examples and ones that you can see yourself. If we were to list them all, it'd be a lot longer than that.

[Quickening]

No, the fact that I can name them so easily shows how widespread and annoying they are. I only named a few obvious examples and ones that you can see yourself. If we were to list them all, it'd be a lot longer than that.

Who is this homo? :lol :roll: :applause:

[Derka]

Kobe lost with a Top 5 Center of all-time, a Top 10 PG of all-time, and a top 5 PF of all-time in 2004.

Very much that.

Pretty lame way to blindly Lebron-bash.

[ripthekik]

Who is this homo? :lol :roll: :applause:
Your master who's owned you too many times?

[KingBeasley08]

Phong, bladers or nick young
its probably phong

[Quickening]

Your master who's owned you too many times?

Did you get a boner when you said this? :lol :roll: :applause:

[ripthekik]

Here comes the full retarded lebron fan team :sleeping

[JtotheIzzo]

1 Shaquille O'Neal
2 Kobe Bryant
3 Gary Payton
4 Rick Fox
5 Devean George
6 Derek Fisher
7 Stanislav Medvedenko
8 Karl Malone
9 Kareem Rush
10 Horace Grant
11 Bryon Russell
12 Brian Cook
13 Jannero Pargo
14 Jamal Sampson
15 Luke Walton






END THREAD

[ripthekik]

1 Shaquille O'Neal
2 Kobe Bryant
3 Gary Payton
4 Rick Fox
5 Devean George
6 Derek Fisher
7 Stanislav Medvedenko
8 Karl Malone
9 Kareem Rush
10 Horace Grant
11 Bryon Russell
12 Brian Cook
13 Jannero Pargo
14 Jamal Sampson
15 Luke Walton

END THREAD
If you actually could read, you'll see that argument has been debunked like 50 times in this thread. But you can't read. :applause:

[DaSeba5]

Why do you keep trolling this forum? Why do you hate LeBron so much?

[PJR]

Why do you keep trolling this forum? Why do you hate LeBron so much?

It's quite amazing. For someone who holds LeBron in such low regard, he sure does post a lot about him. Obsessed much?

[DaSeba5]

It's quite amazing. For someone who holds LeBron in such low regard, he sure does post a lot about him. Obsessed much?

A lot of Laker fans/Kobe stans do this. It's astounding.

I don't like Kobe and the Lakers, but I don't make thousands of Kobe threads to hate the dude. Just respect the great players.

This dude hates LeBron like he knows him personally.

[Ne 1]

2004 Lakers stacked as fck.. shame their second option spoiled it with shot jacking.:lol :roll: :applause:

Yeah, it was all Kobe's fault. The rest of the team outside Shaq of shooting 33%, Malone injured, Shaq's lazy play defensively and on the boards, and Payton's crappy play had nothing to do with it. It's all Kobe's fault. That's why the biggest blow-out loss came in the game where he only had 13 shots, right? lmao.

What a moron.

[Ne 1]

Actually that's all Kobe

He was suck that series

Shot ball under 40%

In other way Shaq had great series

Why do people rewrite history when it comes to that 2004 finals? Don't get me wrong Kobe was horrendous.

But not only that, Tex Winter criticized Shaq's play in that series for being lazy on defense and the glass, and not establishing position in the paint... now don't get it twisted, Kobe played like shit also, but so did Shaq... And I think Shaq only had the one great game that series.


During the '04 series Shaq wasn't getting in position to get the ball. (when he did he was able to score though). But even if you look at the game where Kobe wasn't looking to score, Shaq still couldn't get off. That's why Phil made the comment about wasting Shaq's great game cause he knew Shaq couldn't bring that level of energy every game. Karl Malone was hurt. Gary Payton was a bad fit and even criticized the triangle offense that year. And the Lakers really had no one else to take those shots so of course it was left to Kobe to gun, it wasn't him just forcing up bad shots.

The Lakers own coaches came out saying how Shaq wasn't working for position and wasn't working to get the ball. You can make the judgment on if that was just Shaq pouting cause he wasn't getting the ball enough or you can credit Detroit's defense. Shaq had some great offensive games but was slow defensively coming off the pick and Rip and Chauncy got to the rim at will. Don't remake your own history by looking up some box scores. Anyone can do that.

[LBJ 23]

Nowhere to be found after

:lol


Yea, it's to embarrassing for him(Phong) to show up and swallow all the shit he was spitting about Lebron all these years so he started posting on one of his first accounts probably and totally lost his mind. You would think that after Lebron wins a ring, his main life mission(hating on Lebron) will somehow slow down, but no, it has become even more ridiculous and daunting at the same time.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Payton was one season removed from being an all-star. He just didn't play up to expectations in the playoffs. Do the 11 Heat get a pass, because Lebron turned into Andre Iguodala in the Finals?

This analogy doesn't work, Lebron didn't average 4 ppg on 32% shooting in the finals, a guy who is an all-star doesn't do that when healthy, nor did Lebron get lit up for 21 ppg on the other end by a guy who wasn't even an all-star yet.

Plus, Lebron played quite well prior to the finals. Payton averaged 8 ppg on 37% shooting.

And why use the season before for comparison? Payton was 35 years old that season, almost 36 by the time the finals took place, players have to decline sometime, that was the time for Payton.

Payton's '03 season is no more relevant to his '04 season than his '05 season is. And he averaged 11/3/6 on an ordinary Celtic team that lost in the 1st round in the East. Not terrible, but not near all-star caliber either.

Payton also did fit in the triangle offense, and he didn't transition well to a reduced role as he was started to decline rapidly, and could no longer perform at an all-star level. It's not uncommon, we saw the same thing with Glen Rice on the 2000 Lakers, and it's also why Mitch Richmond didn't get playing time on the '02 Lakers.


Malone missed one game. He was playing hurt, but would the 12 Heat have gotten a pass, because Wade had a knee injury?

Wade wasn't limping around the court averaging 5 ppg on 33% shooting, and he wasn't almost 41 years old either.

It's not just that Malone missed 1 game, he wasn't effective when he did play. I don't blame him, but he just couldn't do it physically.


LA started off loaded with talent, and the expectations were huge. They had some bad luck along the way, but so what? Every stacked team that loses has bad luck, and underperforming players.

The thing is, with Malone injured and not able to play effectively and Payton playing like a scrub in the playoffs, particularly the finals, they're no longer loaded with talent.

They became a 2 man team, and Shaq/Kobe weren't at the level they were in previous seasons, so they needed more help than in the past.


Why do people rewrite history when it comes to that 2004 finals? Don't get me wrong Kobe was horrendous.

But not only that, Tex Winter criticized Shaq's play in that series for being lazy on defense and the glass, and not establishing position in the paint... now don't get it twisted, Kobe played like shit also, but so did Shaq... And I think Shaq only had the one great game that series.


During the '04 series Shaq wasn't getting in position to get the ball. (when he did he was able to score though). But even if you look at the game where Kobe wasn't looking to score, Shaq still couldn't get off. That's why Phil made the comment about wasting Shaq's great game cause he knew Shaq couldn't bring that level of energy every game. Karl Malone was hurt. Gary Payton was a bad fit and even criticized the triangle offense that year. And the Lakers really had no one else to take those shots so of course it was left to Kobe to gun, it wasn't him just forcing up bad shots.

The Lakers own coaches came out saying how Shaq wasn't working for position and wasn't working to get the ball. You can make the judgment on if that was just Shaq pouting cause he wasn't getting the ball enough or you can credit Detroit's defense. Shaq had some great offensive games but was slow defensively coming off the pick and Rip and Chauncy got to the rim at will. Don't remake your own history by looking up some box scores. Anyone can do that.

Shaq definitely didn't play like shit.

He had 34 points and 11 rebounds on 13/16 shooting and 8/12 from the line in game 1. This was one that the Lakers had a chance to win, but blew it. They were actually leading by 1 at halftime, they still only trailed by 6 entering the 4th.

But as the game went on, they stopped going to Shaq as much.

Kobe's approach and shot selection did greatly hurt their chances of winning game 1. He ended up with 25 points on 10/27 shooting, 1/6 on 3s, and just 4/4 from the line.

Taking 11 more shots than Shaq while scoring 9 fewer points is unacceptable, as is attempting 2 more 3s than free throws. And that was a huge problem for the Lakers all series, settling for long jumpers that were well-contested by Tayshaun Prince.

Shaq was fine in game 2 with 29 points, 7 rebounds and 3 assists on 10/20 shooting and 9/14 from the line, though Kobe was the hero in this game.

In the pivotal game 4 that pretty much decided whether the Lakers would lose this series, or stay in it, Shaq had 36 points and 20 rebounds on 16/21 shooting, and this was a winnable game, it was tied through 3 quarters, and the same story as game 1.

Kobe ended up with 20 points, 0 rebounds and 2 assists on 8/25 shooting, 2/6 on 3s and 2/2 from the line. There's no excuse for him attempting 4 more shots than Shaq while scoring 16 fewer points, and just like game 1, more FGA than points, and now 4 more 3 point attempts than free throw attempts, again demonstrating how much he was settling.

I'll agree that Shaq's defense should have been better, but in addition to the game the Lakers did win, he played more than well enough for the Lakers to have been the team up 3-1.

I've read the Tex Winter quote, and I certainly can't question his knowledge of the game, but I've seen the series myself, once when it happened in 2004, and twice since then, and I have my own opinion.

Shaq not getting position was an exaggeration, there were plenty of other opportunities to get him the ball. Even if he wasn't getting position right under the basket, if Detroit wasn't going to double when he'd put the ball on the floor, he'd score anyway. And if they doubled after a few triples, his teammates get an open shot.

You have to take advantage of Detroit guarding Shaq 1 on 1, especially when he's scoring almost every time like games 1 and 4.

You give Shaq a chance to score 50+ in games like that, if Detroit isn't going to double, well, that's your best chance of scoring, and if you pound the ball inside enough that they're forced to double, well then that's your best chance of getting good shots, certainly a lot better than what they were getting.

As I've posted in this thread and numerous other threads, Kobe did not lose the series by himself and was far from the only problem. But he did really hurt the Lakers chances of winning games 1 and 4, either of those games could have changed the series dramatically.

[Inactive]

This analogy doesn't work, Lebron didn't average 4 ppg on 32% shooting in the finals, a guy who is an all-star doesn't do that when healthy, nor did Lebron get lit up for 21 ppg on the other end by a guy who wasn't even an all-star yet.

Plus, Lebron played quite well prior to the finals. Payton averaged 8 ppg on 37% shooting.

LA's problems were more severe than Miami's, but they were fundamentally the same problems. Players didn't perform up to the standards that they set in previous seasons. They had trouble adjusting to their new roles, and the pieces(and egos) didn't necessarily fit.



Payton's '03 season is no more relevant to his '04 season than his '05 season is. And he averaged 11/3/6 on an ordinary Celtic team that lost in the 1st round in the East. Not terrible, but not near all-star caliber either. Yes it is. When the team was formed, it was loaded with talent. We can look back at them in hindsight, and understand why they lost, but we can do that for any "stacked" team. If you asked people in 03 if a big 3 of Payton/Kobe/Shaq would be favorites to win, most people would probably say "Duh. A big 3 of Fisher/Kobe/Shaq would be favorites!". Throw in Malone, and you have a team that looks unstoppable.


Payton also did fit in the triangle offense, and he didn't transition well to a reduced role as he was started to decline rapidly, and could no longer perform at an all-star level. It's not uncommon, we saw the same thing with Glen Rice on the 2000 Lakers, and it's also why Mitch Richmond didn't get playing time on the '02 Lakers.
Saying "the pieces didn't fit together, and some of players couldn't perform up to the standard they set in previous seasons" does not make the team less stacked. Those are explanations for their loss. If you're loaded with more talent than every other team, and everyone plays as well as you'd expect, you will never lose. Every stacked team that loses can give a list of excuses, not just LA.

If we decide to determine how stacked a team is after the fact, and we take into account the issues that prevented them from performing up to expectations, then we would have to conclude that no stacked team has ever lost. I can understand making exceptions for a team that actually loses one of it's players for the entire season, but not for a team that just has players under perform, regardless of the reason.