Does Kobe have the lowest FG% in finals ever for a star player??

[Derivative]

Looking at Kobe's field goal % in the finals, it makes me wonder does he average the lowest FG% ever for star players in the finals?

2000: 36.7%
2001: 41.5%
2002: 51.4%
2004: 38.1%
2008: 40.5%
2009: 43.0%
2010: 40.5%
Average: 41.21%

[no pun intended]

Allen Iverson.

[Quotable]

I don't know. I wouldn't doubt if it was true. He's been better in the WCF's than the Finals that's for sure. He's had some really good games in the Finals but never one dominant series. He's ripped up the Spurs, Suns, Nuggets etc. in the West playoffs. But he's had a tougher go at it against hte Pistons and Celtics of the world.

[Derivative]

I don't know. I wouldn't doubt if it was true. He's been better in the WCF's than the Finals that's for sure. He's had some really good games in the Finals but never one dominant series. He's ripped up the Spurs, Suns, Nuggets etc. in the West playoffs. But he's had a tougher go at it against hte Pistons and Celtics of the world.

i think in the finals Kobe tries to be the MAN to much which induces him to be a ballhog and take bad shots which lowers his fG%

[Owl]

Looking at Kobe's field goal % in the finals, it makes me wonder does he average the lowest FG% ever for star players in the finals?

2000: 36.7%
2001: 41.5%
2002: 51.4%
2004: 38.1%
2008: 40.5%
2009: 43.0%
2010: 40.5%
Average: 41.6%
To clarify (I wondered, so I did the math) the average you've given is the average of the series' not weighting for the number of shots taken in each.

In total he has taken 808 shots in the finals and made 333 for a fg% of 41.2128713 .

[Deuce Bigalow]

How many 3s has he taken though?

[BEAST Griffin]

How many 3s has he taken though?

Probably far too many. Threes are overrated.

Kobe's bad shot selection makes it even worse.

[Derivative]

How many 3s has he taken though?

too many

[RazorBaLade]

Probably far too many. Threes are overrated.

Kobe's bad shot selection makes it even worse.

no they arent

[Deuce Bigalow]

too many
can you tell me?

[Derivative]

can you tell me?

actually i checked and its not alot, do the adding yourself on bball reference

this makes his low FG% even worse

[Owl]

How many 3s has he taken though?
Won't look at taken (a miss is a miss wherever its from) but he's made 48 3s.

He has however shot 223 of 263 from the line or .847908745

He has a finals TS% of .507188325

[Dave3]

Probably far too many. Threes are overrated.

Kobe's bad shot selection makes it even worse.
Threes aren't overrated. All stars who aren't good at them shooting them too much is overrated. Kobe's had one year actually shooting exceptionally from 3, at 38%, which was in 2003. LeBron has had none, and both are around 33-34% for their career. Neither of them should be shooting many 3s to begin with. That being said, Kobe has hit a couple of clutch ones and I'd rely on him to hit a clutch one (especially young Kobe or 2010 Kobe) but I wouldn't want him shooting 5 of them a game. Doesn't mean the shot itself is overrated, but the overuse of it by stars is overrated.

[gengiskhan]

Looking at Kobe's field goal % in the finals, it makes me wonder does he average the lowest FG% ever for star players in the finals?

2000: 36.7%
2001: 41.5%
2002: 51.4%
2004: 38.1%
2008: 40.5%
2009: 43.0%
2010: 40.5%
Average: 41.21%

we also has to remember, it was Shaq hogging the defensive assignments of sixers, nets, pacers in NBA finals. They triple team Shaq & literally left kobe standing to take the jumpshots.

still Kobe sucked. Its the MJ wannabe complex kobe has that destroyed his FG%. On the bright side, he did shoot 51.4% eventually which should've been much higher having Shaq on your side.

[Deuce Bigalow]

we also has to remember, it was Shaq hogging the defensive assignments of sixers, nets, pacers in NBA finals. They triple team Shaq & literally left kobe standing to take the jumpshots.

still Kobe sucked. Its the MJ wannabe complex kobe has that destroyed his FG%. On the bright side, he did shoot 51.4% eventually which should've been much higher having Shaq on your side.
Who was the 2nd best team in 2001?

[Owl]

we also has to remember, it was Shaq hogging the defensive assignments of sixers, nets, pacers in NBA finals. They triple team Shaq & literally left kobe standing to take the jumpshots.

still Kobe sucked. Its the MJ wannabe complex kobe has that destroyed his FG%. On the bright side, he did shoot 51.4% eventually which should've been much higher having Shaq on your side.
As the MJ comparison has come in

MJs numbers are

FGs 438 of 911 for 48.079034 fg%
42 3s made
FTs 245 of 315 for .777777778
TS% .554020579

[Derivative]

Who was the 2nd best team in 2001?

shouldn't kobe be able to shoot higher FG% against worse teams in the finals?

[Odinn]

.412 fg (333/808)
.848 ft (223/263)
.314 3pt (48/153)
.442 efg
.507 ts

As for efficiency, 2002 Finals was the only one Kobe was great.
.514 fg - .545 3pt - .806 ft - .557 efg - .623 ts

If we exclude 2002 Finals;
.408 fg (297/728)
.855 ft (194/227)
.296 3pt (42/142)
.437 efg
.501 ts

[Derivative]

As the MJ comparison has come in

MJs numbers are

FGs 438 of 911 for 48.079034 fg%
42 3s made
FTs 245 of 315 for .777777778
TS% .554020579

are you sure your math is right, should be around 58%

[gengiskhan]

As the MJ comparison has come in

MJs numbers are

FGs 438 of 911 for 48.079034 fg%
42 3s made
FTs 245 of 315 for .777777778
TS% .554020579

MJ was hogging defensive assigments of opposition in Finals just like Shaq.

That 48%FG for Finals is GOAT for a 6'6" perimeter player drawing triple teams every FGA in the FINALS. :bowdown: :bowdown:

They literally played Pippen 1-on-1 all 6 NBA Finals.

[Derivative]

.412 fg (333/808)
.848 ft (223/263)
.314 3pt (48/153)
.442 efg
.507 ts

As for efficiency, 2002 Finals was the only one Kobe was great.
.514 fg - .545 3pt - .806 ft - .557 efg - .623 ts

If we exclude 2002 Finals;
.408 fg (297/728)
.855 ft (194/227)
.296 3pt (42/142)
.437 efg
.501 ts

can you calculate for MJ's 6 finals, and separately for the 1st 3peat and 2nd 3 peat

[Owl]

are you sure your math is right, should be around 58%
Calculate it for yourself but I used the same excel formula as for Kobe. What do you think is wrong?
Anyways it's total finals points/(2x(fga+(.44xfta)))

fga is total finals field goal attempts
FTA is total finals free throw attempts

[Odinn]

are you sure your math is right, should be around 58%
1176 points - 911 fga - 320 fta

1176 / ( 2 * ( 911 + ( 320 * 0.44 ) ) ) = .5590416428978893

[Owl]

can you calculate for MJ's 6 finals, and separately for the 1st 3peat and 2nd 3 peat
I'll let Odinn field that as you asked him but the first three series will be more impressive as he has significantly higher fg%. Later series MJ got to the line more but not enough to offset the (relative) fall in fg%.

[Odinn]

can you calculate for MJ's 6 finals, and separately for the 1st 3peat and 2nd 3 peat
1st threepeat;
617 points - 466 fga - 128 fta
617 / ( 2 * ( 466 + ( 128 * 0.44 ) ) ) = .5906340940419666

2nd threepeat;
559 points - 445 fga - 192 fta
559 / ( 2 * ( 445 + ( 192 * 0.44 ) ) ) = .5278764070408703

[Derivative]

1st threepeat;
617 points - 466 fga - 128 fta
617 / ( 2 * ( 466 + ( 128 * 0.44 ) ) ) = .5906340940419666

2nd threepeat;
559 points - 445 fga - 192 fta
559 / ( 2 * ( 445 + ( 192 * 0.44 ) ) ) = .5278764070408703

dang MJ in his prime was godlike:bowdown: :bowdown:

[Quizno]

we also has to remember, it was Shaq hogging the defensive assignments of sixers, nets, pacers in NBA finals. They triple team Shaq & literally left kobe standing to take the jumpshots.

still Kobe sucked. Its the MJ wannabe complex kobe has that destroyed his FG%. On the bright side, he did shoot 51.4% eventually which should've been much higher having Shaq on your side.
possibly top 5 most bullshit post i've ever seen on ish :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Odinn]

possibly top 5 most bullshit post i've ever seen on ish :roll: :roll: :roll:
I do not like that guy but he has a point about that. Shaq was one of the most doubled player in the history if not the most. It was a lot easier to get wide open if you had Shaq by your side.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Jordan in '93 ECF vs NY Knicks: 40.0 FG%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1993_ECF.html

NY had a defensive rating below 100, like the teams Kobe faced in the Finals

[swi7ch]

Kobe has also NEVER gone past the 1st round w/o Shaq or Pau. He failed 2x and missed the playoffs 1x.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe has also NEVER gone past the 1st round w/o Shaq or Pau. He failed 2x and missed the playoffs 1x.
Jordan has NEVER gone past the 1st Round w/o Pippen

Kareem missed the playoffs TWICE in his prime

[Glide2keva]

Won't look at taken (a miss is a miss wherever its from) but he's made 48 3s.

He has however shot 223 of 263 from the line or .847908745

He has a finals TS% of .507188325
Who cares about TS%?

41% from the field is still 41% from the field. Can't hide that by using a TS% bumped up by FT%.

[Glide2keva]

Jordan has NEVER gone past the 1st Round w/o Pippen

Kareem missed the playoffs TWICE in his prime
Right because Pippen was an all time great as soon as he came into the league :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

Right because Pippen was an all time great as soon as he came into the league :facepalm
Read what I responded too

[RazorBaLade]

I do not like that guy but he has a point about that. Shaq was one of the most doubled player in the history if not the most. It was a lot easier to get wide open if you had Shaq by your side.

Yeah except no ****ing sane coach would ever double off of kobe. Who the **** doubles garnett off of pierce or kareem off of magic? It was the role players horry fox etc that were always open. Guy watched absolutely 0 games.

[Odinn]

Yeah except no ****ing sane coach would ever double off of kobe. Who the **** doubles garnett off of pierce or kareem off of magic? It was the role players horry fox etc that were always open. Guy watched absolutely 0 games.
Actually if you have watched or at least read ShaqAttack3234, you wouldn't feel you have to post this.

PS: I guess "getting wide open" was not the accurate one but Shaq was making scoring easier to his teammate without a doubt.

[amfirst]

Yes, Kobe shooting percentage is low due to bad shot selection, but that doesn't mean is a bad shooter. He would own a lot of star players if there was a shooting contest.

[28renyoy]

Hell I think lebrons is in the 30's. If not I know his eFG% is absolute garbage

[RazorBaLade]

Actually if you have watched or at least read ShaqAttack3234, you wouldn't feel you have to post this.

PS: I guess "getting wide open" was not the accurate one but Shaq was making scoring easier to his teammate without a doubt.

Obviously playing with shaq makes it easier for everyone else. PLaying with kobe also makes it easier for everyone else but sure not to the same degree. That post was garbage, no way around it.

[Round Mound]

Looking at Kobe's field goal % in the finals, it makes me wonder does he average the lowest FG% ever for star players in the finals?

2000: 36.7%
2001: 41.5%
2002: 51.4%
2004: 38.1%
2008: 40.5%
2009: 43.0%
2010: 40.5%
Average: 41.21%

Most Ovarrated Player of All Time by Far :rolleyes: :facepalm

[Odinn]

Yes, Kobe shooting percentage is low due to bad shot selection, but that doesn't mean is a bad shooter. He would own a lot of star players if there was a shooting contest.
:roll: :roll:

[gengiskhan]

Jordan in '93 ECF vs NY Knicks:40.0 FG%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1993_ECF.html

NY had a defensive rating below 100, like the teams Kobe faced in the Finals

dumb retarded delusional kobe fans!

FACT: Jordan severely sprain his shooting wrist in CLE series ECSF in 1993.

Defenses kobe faced is not even 50% of of 1992-1993 NYK, 1998 IND. 1988-1990 Bad Boys.

MJ got body tackled. There is no such thing as "The Kobe Rules". But there is such thing as "the Jordan rules"

Kobe'tards keep having these wet dreams. But they are only just that. "dreams"

[Deuce Bigalow]

dumb retarded delusional kobe fans!

FACT: Jordan severely sprain his shooting wrist in CLE series ECSF in 1993.

Defenses kobe faced is not even 50% of of 1992-1993 NYK, 1998 IND. 1988-1990 Bad Boys.

MJ got body tackled. There is no such thing as "The Kobe Rules". But there is such thing as "the Jordan rules"

Kobe'tards keep having these wet dreams. But they are only just that. "dreams"
:roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Most Ovarrated Player of All Time by Far :rolleyes: :facepalm
Why does Kobe have 3 Playoff runs to the NBA Finals where he shot more efficiently than Barkley in his lone Playoff run to the NBA Finals?

Barkley '93 Playoffs: .488 eFG%, .552 TS%

Kobe '08 Playoffs: .514 eFG%, .577 TS%
Kobe '09 Playoffs: .492 eFG%, .564 TS% (won Championship)
Kobe '10 Playoffs: .506 eFG%, .567 TS% (won Championship)

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Def Ratings of Finals Opponents

Kobe

04 Pistons 95.4
01 76ers 98.9
08 Celtics 98.9
02 Nets 99.5
09 Magic 101.9
00 Pacers 103.6
10 Celtics 103.8

Jordan
96 Sonics 102.1
97 Jazz 104.0
92 Blazers 104.2
91 Lakers 105.0
98 Jazz 105.4
93 Suns 106.7

:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Before the usual Jordan mythologists start whining about defensive rating... rank the following teams based on their defensive prowess

04 Pistons
01 76ers
08 Celtics
02 Nets
09 Magic
00 Pacers
10 Celtics
96 Sonics
97 Jazz
92 Blazers
91 Lakers
98 Jazz
93 Suns

Im trying to gauge how delusional you cats are

[RazorBaLade]

Why does Kobe have 3 Playoff runs to the NBA Finals where he shot more efficiently than Barkley in his lone Playoff run to the NBA Finals?

Barkley '93 Playoffs: .488 eFG%, .552 TS%

Kobe '08 Playoffs: .514 eFG%, .577 TS%
Kobe '09 Playoffs: .492 eFG%, .564 TS% (won Championship)
Kobe '10 Playoffs: .506 eFG%, .567 TS% (won Championship)

oh god i hope this guy responds

[gengiskhan]

Most Ovarrated Player of All Time by Far :rolleyes: :facepalm

This.

& its not even close. Game that is really not "original" or his own. Its cheap immitation at its best. It may have worked in bits & pieces but overall. Hell NO!

[Calabis]

Before the usual Jordan mythologists start whining about defensive rating... rank the following teams based on their defensive prowess

04 Pistons
01 76ers (Snow/Mckie)
08 Celtics (Allen/Allen)
02 Nets (Kidd/Kittles)
09 Magic(Lee/Reddick)
00 Pacers (34 year old Miller/Rose)
10 Celtics(Allen/Pierce)
96 Sonics(Payton-DPOY/Hawkins/McMillan)
97 Jazz (Hornecek/Russell)
92 Blazers (Drexler/Robinson)
91 Lakers (Scott/Teagle)
98 Jazz (Hornecek/Russell)
93 Suns (Majerle/Dumas)

Im trying to gauge how delusional you cats are

:confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

Jordan in '93 ECF vs NY Knicks: 40.0 FG%

http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1993_ECF.html

NY had a defensive rating below 100, like the teams Kobe faced in the Finals


By defensive rating:

2003 Washington Wizards >>> 1991 Chicago Bulls

Agree or no??

By defensive rating:

2003 Michael Jordan >> 1989 Michael Jordan defensively

Agree or no??

[Doctor Rivers]

By defensive rating:

2003 Washington Wizards >>> 1991 Chicago Bulls

Agree or no??

By defensive rating:

2003 Michael Jordan >> 1989 Michael Jordan defensively

Agree or no??

Agree.

Agree.

[bwink23]

Jordan has NEVER gone past the 1st Round w/o Pippen

Kareem missed the playoffs TWICE in his prime


Jordan got by the first round in 1988 while Pippen averaged this in the first round:

10.6 ppg on 47.1%FG.....3 games he didn't even score better than 8 points.....:facepalm

[bwink23]

Why does Kobe have 3 Playoff runs to the NBA Finals where he shot more efficiently than Barkley in his lone Playoff run to the NBA Finals?

Barkley '93 Playoffs: .488 eFG%, .552 TS%

Kobe '08 Playoffs: .514 eFG%, .577 TS%
Kobe '09 Playoffs: .492 eFG%, .564 TS% (won Championship)
Kobe '10 Playoffs: .506 eFG%, .567 TS% (won Championship)


Because he's a 3-point chucker, duh...most guys he jack 3's have a higher eFG% than guys that don't...:facepalm

THANK GOD the NBA didn't make it a 4-pointer :lol

[disel]

Duece fagalow is nothing more then a bandwagoner. He was a bulls fan and now a lakers fan. lol

[TheCorporation]

.412 fg (333/808)
.848 ft (223/263)
.314 3pt (48/153)
.442 efg
.507 ts

As for efficiency, 2002 Finals was the only one Kobe was great.
.514 fg - .545 3pt - .806 ft - .557 efg - .623 ts

If we exclude 2002 Finals;
.408 fg (297/728)
.855 ft (194/227)
.296 3pt (42/142)
.437 efg
.501 ts

:lol :lol You can't just 'exclude' his best Finals series. That doesn't even make any sense.

[NBASTATMAN]

Looking at Kobe's field goal % in the finals, it makes me wonder does he average the lowest FG% ever for star players in the finals?

2000: 36.7%
2001: 41.5%
2002: 51.4%
2004: 38.1%
2008: 40.5%
2009: 43.0%
2010: 40.5%
Average: 41.21%


IM SURE LEBRON IS RIGHT THERE... At least kobe doesn't shy away from the ball in crunch time.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:confusedshrug:

:oldlol:

I'm pretty sure the entire team guarded both Kobe and Jordan.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

By defensive rating:

2003 Washington Wizards >>> 1991 Chicago Bulls

Agree or no??

By defensive rating:

2003 Michael Jordan >> 1989 Michael Jordan defensively

Agree or no??

Yes to both question though there is a difference between individual and team defensive rating.


I get it you don't like defensive ranking. With that said, rank the following defensive teams...

04 Pistons
01 76ers
08 Celtics
02 Nets
09 Magic
00 Pacers
10 Celtics
96 Sonics
97 Jazz
92 Blazers
91 Lakers
98 Jazz
93 Suns

[bwink23]

:oldlol:

I'm pretty sure the entire team guarded both Kobe and Jordan.


I'm pretty sure defensive rating doesn't reflect the difference in playing styles across the eras, so it can't be used to show a direct comparison in defensive ability...:facepalm :facepalm

2003 Michael Jordan >>>> 1989 Michael Jordan in defensive ability based on defensive rating.....Same player, 2 different eras.

So how does 40-year old Michael Jordan get to be a BETTER defensive player than 26-year old Jordan ?? ANSWER: He was playing in the early 2000's era.

:confusedshrug:

[bwink23]

Yes to both question though there is a difference between individual and team defensive rating.


I get it you don't like defensive ranking. With that said, rank the following defensive teams...

04 Pistons
01 76ers
08 Celtics
02 Nets
09 Magic
00 Pacers
10 Celtics
96 Sonics
97 Jazz
92 Blazers
91 Lakers
98 Jazz
93 Suns


Thank you for the self-admission to complete basketball retardedness.

Thanks for playing Foot.....:lol :lol :lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm pretty sure defensive rating doesn't reflect the difference in playing styles across the eras, so it can't be used to show a direct comparison in defensive ability...:facepalm :facepalm

2003 Michael Jordan >>>> 1989 Michael Jordan in defensive ability based on defensive rating.....Same player, 2 different eras.

So how does 40-year old Michael Jordan get to be a BETTER defensive player than 26-year old Jordan ?? ANSWER: He was playing in the early 2000's era.

:confusedshrug:

You answered your own question. Individual defensive rating is just a divied up potion of the team defensive rating. The early 2000s wasn't offensive inflated like the 80s and 90s which is why it was lower.

Go ahead and rank the teams without recognizing the most popular defensive ranking formula on the planet. Lets see the list, I need a good laugh this morning

:oldlol:

[Leviathon1121]

So defenses have better numbers when a teams offense is inept, got it.

Lack of quality big men, lack of fundamentals and mid range game, hoisting of low percentage three point shots = SUPER AWESOME DEFENSE RATINGS!@!@@!

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Jesus Christ again with the 3pt shot :facepalm

Do the math if a team holds an offense to 33% shooting from 3 their def rating in respect to three pointers is 100.0

League average (2012) = 35% = 1.05

1.05 is an average to mediocre defensive rating in this era of basketball

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Go ahead mythologists ... rank the teams. You don't have to use defensive rating. Use your superior methodologies. :oldlol:

04 Pistons
01 76ers
08 Celtics
02 Nets
09 Magic
00 Pacers
10 Celtics
96 Sonics
97 Jazz
92 Blazers
91 Lakers
98 Jazz
93 Suns

[Calabis]

:oldlol:

I'm pretty sure the entire team guarded both Kobe and Jordan.

I'm pretty sure those Wizards were better than the Bulls, by your garbage theory. It has been shown to you 4 million times that pace has a great impact on D Rating...its not hard to see the slowest era's have the better D Ratings, just as the faster pace equals higher Offensive ratings

[KingBeasley08]

just shows how GREAT Jordan was :bowdown: :bowdown:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Before the usual Jordan mythologists start whining about defensive rating... rank the following teams based on their defensive prowess

04 Pistons
01 76ers
08 Celtics
02 Nets
09 Magic
00 Pacers
10 Celtics
96 Sonics
97 Jazz
92 Blazers
91 Lakers
98 Jazz
93 Suns

Im trying to gauge how delusional you cats are

Yeah, no bias here at all. :oldlol:

2010 Celts in the postseason held opponents to 91.1 ppg/43.2% FG/52.6% TS

1998 Jazz in the postseason held opponents to 86.9 ppg/41.4% FG/49.5% TS

1997 Jazz in the postseason held opponents to 92.8 ppg/43.8% FG/53.5% TS

2001 Sixers in the postseason held opponents to 92.4 ppg/44.2% FG/52.6% TS

1996 Sonics in the postseason held opponents to 92.7 ppg/43.1% FG/51.7% TS

Yeah...there's a huge difference there, and your rankings are completely justified. :rolleyes: :oldlol: Kobe's Finals failures and wretched play are well-documented, and acting like it's all because of the quality of defense is absurd when A) Kobe also has numerous crappy shooting series against lesser defensive teams (much more so than Jordan) and B) Kobe's peers routinely played/shot better against the same opponents (see: Carter averaging 31/6/6/48% FG vs. Philly in the '01 playoffs versus Kobe's 25/8/6/42% FG; Wade averaging 33/6/7/56% FG vs. the '10 Celtcs versus Kobe's 29/8/4/41% FG etc.). Just a huge joke that these Kobe stans try to rationalize every damn failure. :oldlol:

[bwink23]

Yeah, no bias here at all. :oldlol:

2010 Celts in the postseason held opponents to 91.1 ppg/43.2% FG/52.6% TS

1998 Jazz in the postseason held opponents to 86.9 ppg/41.4% FG/49.5% TS

1997 Jazz in the postseason held opponents to 92.8 ppg/43.8% FG/53.5% TS

2001 Sixers in the postseason held opponents to 92.4 ppg/44.2% FG/52.6% TS

1996 Sonics in the postseason held opponents to 92.7 ppg/43.1% FG/51.7% TS

Yeah...there's a huge difference there, and your rankings are completely justified. :rolleyes: :oldlol: Kobe's Finals failures and wretched play are well-documented, and acting like it's all because of the quality of defense is absurd when A) Kobe also has numerous crappy shooting series against lesser defensive teams (much more so than Jordan) and B) Kobe's peers routinely played/shot better against the same opponents (see: Carter averaging 31/6/6/48% FG vs. Philly in the '01 playoffs versus Kobe's 25/8/6/42% FG; Wade averaging 33/6/7/56% FG vs. the '10 Celtcs versus Kobe's 29/8/4/41% FG etc.). Just a huge joke that these Kobe stans try to rationalize every damn failure. :oldlol:


R.I.P Foot.

[Calabis]

Yeah, no bias here at all. :oldlol:

2010 Celts in the postseason held opponents to 91.1 ppg/43.2% FG/52.6% TS

1998 Jazz in the postseason held opponents to 86.9 ppg/41.4% FG/49.5% TS

1997 Jazz in the postseason held opponents to 92.8 ppg/43.8% FG/53.5% TS

2001 Sixers in the postseason held opponents to 92.4 ppg/44.2% FG/52.6% TS

1996 Sonics in the postseason held opponents to 92.7 ppg/43.1% FG/51.7% TS

Yeah...there's a huge difference there, and your rankings are completely justified. :rolleyes: :oldlol: Kobe's Finals failures and wretched play are well-documented, and acting like it's all because of the quality of defense is absurd when A) Kobe also has numerous crappy shooting series against lesser defensive teams (much more so than Jordan) and B) Kobe's peers routinely played/shot better against the same opponents (see: Carter averaging 31/6/6/48% FG vs. Philly in the '01 playoffs versus Kobe's 25/8/6/42% FG; Wade averaging 33/6/7/56% FG vs. the '10 Celtcs versus Kobe's 29/8/4/41% FG etc.). Just a huge joke that these Kobe stans try to rationalize every damn failure. :oldlol:

:applause: ........but, but, but....D Rating

[bwink23]

Go ahead mythologists ... rank the teams. You don't have to use defensive rating. Use your superior methodologies. :oldlol:

04 Pistons
01 76ers
08 Celtics
02 Nets
09 Magic
00 Pacers
10 Celtics
96 Sonics
97 Jazz
92 Blazers
91 Lakers
98 Jazz
93 Suns


Can you post the offensive ratings between the eras as well please?? :confusedshrug:

[NBASTATMAN]

Yeah, no bias here at all. :oldlol:

2010 Celts in the postseason held opponents to 91.1 ppg/43.2% FG/52.6% TS

1998 Jazz in the postseason held opponents to 86.9 ppg/41.4% FG/49.5% TS

1997 Jazz in the postseason held opponents to 92.8 ppg/43.8% FG/53.5% TS

2001 Sixers in the postseason held opponents to 92.4 ppg/44.2% FG/52.6% TS

1996 Sonics in the postseason held opponents to 92.7 ppg/43.1% FG/51.7% TS

Yeah...there's a huge difference there, and your rankings are completely justified. :rolleyes: :oldlol: Kobe's Finals failures and wretched play are well-documented, and acting like it's all because of the quality of defense is absurd when A) Kobe also has numerous crappy shooting series against lesser defensive teams (much more so than Jordan) and B) Kobe's peers routinely played/shot better against the same opponents (see: Carter averaging 31/6/6/48% FG vs. Philly in the '01 playoffs versus Kobe's 25/8/6/42% FG; Wade averaging 33/6/7/56% FG vs. the '10 Celtcs versus Kobe's 29/8/4/41% FG etc.). Just a huge joke that these Kobe stans try to rationalize every damn failure. :oldlol:


foot is still trying that bs...:roll:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Foot back to his old tricks. :lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

right why use 82 games worth of data when we can look at a few playoff series especially considering you didn't even factor out how the Lakers and Bulls played against them

:facepalm

I still haven't seen a single ranking from the usual Jordanites. :confusedshrug:

Just the usual whining that defensive rating is somehow biased against the video game era of basketball.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm pretty sure those Wizards were better than the Bulls, by your garbage theory. It has been shown to you 4 million times that pace has a great impact on D Rating...its not hard to see the slowest era's have the better D Ratings, just as the faster pace equals higher Offensive ratings

Ever heard the phrase correlation does not equal causation?

Imagine a pick up game where you ran down and chuck up a shot at halfcourt repeatedly. Your pace is high , the opponents defensive rating would be low.

Now imagine a pick up game where you score an easy uncontested layup every time you touch the ball. The pace is high and the opponents defensive rating would be high.

Slowest paced teams generally have better defensive rating because the other teams offense did not get an easy look at the basket early in the shot clock.

:facepalm

[KingBeasley08]

wow yao ming's foot got killed again. this is becoming a habit for him now

[Owl]

right why use 82 games worth of data when we can look at a few playoff series especially considering you didn't even factor out how the Lakers and Bulls played against them

:facepalm

I still haven't seen a single ranking from the usual Jordanites. :confusedshrug:

Just the usual whining that defensive rating is somehow biased against the video game era of basketball.
Because this topic is about finals performances.
But Jordan's percentages (fg%, efg%, ts%) are all substantially above Kobe's despite always being his teams first option.

Even measures which normalise for era and negate era advantages in offense or defense by comparing players with their peers (such as PER) show Jordan as substantially better.


Ever heard the phrase correlation does not equal causation?
Fair enough

Slowest paced teams generally have better defensive rating because the other teams offense did not get an easy look at the basket early in the shot clock.

:facepalm
Evidence for this? How do you know that defense (and low DRtg) cause low pace and not vice-versa.
Typically offense rather than defense is considered the more influential on pace.

[jlauber]

Kobe gets ripped for his Finals FG%, but what about Bird? Bird played in an era of the highest FG% in NBA history, in league's that ranged from .477 to .492, and about .485 on average...and shot .455 overall in his five Finals. His HIGHEST Finals FG% was .488, and he had series of .449, .445, and even .419. He played in 31 Finals' games, had 11 games below .399 (which was as many as he had above .499), and even had two below .299. And in his only game seven of his Finals' career, he shot 6-18.

Granted, Bird did other things, but he can't be claimed to be any more of a "winner" than Kobe, who holds a 5-3 edge in rings (and a 7-5 edge in Finals.)

[Legends66NBA7]

If were just doing players... who just got to the Finals fewer times ?

Of the top of my head:

Dirk Nowitzki and Allen Iverson, I believe have lower fg% than Kobe.

Are we using a larger sample size though ?

[BEAST Griffin]

Kobe gets ripped for his Finals FG%, but what about Bird? Bird played in an era of the highest FG% in NBA history, in league's that ranged from .477 to .492, and about .485 on average...and shot .455 overall in his five Finals. His HIGHEST Finals FG% was .488, and he had series of .449, .445, and even .419. He played in 31 Finals' games, had 11 games below .399 (which was as many as he had above .499), and even had two below .299.

Granted, Bird did other things, but he can't be claimed to be any more of a "winner" than Kobe, who holds a 5-3 edge in rings (and a 7-5 edge in Finals.)

FG% was higher in that era because of big men and less three point shots.

[jlauber]

FG% was higher in that era because of big men and less three point shots.

Magic shot .516 overall in his NINE Finals.

[BEAST Griffin]

Magic shot .516 overall in his NINE Finals.

Okay.

How does that counter the point I just made?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Because this topic is about finals performances.
But Jordan's percentages (fg%, efg%, ts%) are all substantially above Kobe's despite always being his teams first option.

Even measures which normalise for era and negate era advantages in offense or defense by comparing players with their peers (such as PER) show Jordan as substantially better.

Jordan's numbers should be better, he faced weaker defenses. Even if you completely ignore the fact Jordan's era was inflated offensively. You don't need defensive rating to know that the outside of the Sonics none of the other defenses Jordan faced in the Finals compare to the average Kobe defense. That's the reason nobody has bothered to rank the defensive teams yet. Its a laughable comparison.


Evidence for this? How do you know that defense (and low DRtg) cause low pace and not vice-versa.
Typically offense rather than defense is considered the more influential on pace.

It's common sense. Watch any great defense play. They are going to limit fast break opportunities and offensive teams are going to use more of the shot clock trying to come up with a good shot. A terrible defense is going to allow many fast break opportunities and the offensive team isn't going to need the entire shot clock to get a good shot off.

[BEAST Griffin]

Chicago Bulls had a low pace in the Jordan era.

[jlauber]

Okay.

How does that counter the point I just made?

Bird shot .455 in his five Finals, in leagues that shot .485 on average. Magic, a PG, shot .516 in his nine Finals, and against roughly the same league average.

Worthy, a SF, shot .533 overall in his six Finals.

BTW, in their three H2H Finals, Bird shot .460 overall, while Magic shot .533 and Worthy .575.

[juju151111]

Foot getting owned again. But but drating

[KingBeasley08]

Foot: Kobe's the GOAT. Much better than MJ


Everyone else:................


http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s426/freakbucket_gifs/michael-jordan-lol.gif

[bwink23]

Ever heard the phrase correlation does not equal causation?

Imagine a pick up game where you ran down and chuck up a shot at halfcourt repeatedly. Your pace is high , the opponents defensive rating would be low.

Now imagine a pick up game where you score an easy uncontested layup every time you touch the ball. The pace is high and the opponents defensive rating would be high.

Slowest paced teams generally have better defensive rating because the other teams offense did not get an easy look at the basket early in the shot clock.

:facepalm


Now imagine teleporting the 1991 Chicago Bulls to 2003 and playing a game against the Washington Wizards....who you got??

:lol :lol

[Owl]

Kobe gets ripped for his Finals FG%, but what about Bird? Bird played in an era of the highest FG% in NBA history, in league's that ranged from .477 to .492, and about .485 on average...and shot .455 overall in his five Finals. His HIGHEST Finals FG% was .488, and he had series of .449, .445, and even .419. He played in 31 Finals' games, had 11 games below .399 (which was as many as he had above .499), and even had two below .299. And in his only game seven of his Finals' career, he shot 6-18.

Granted, Bird did other things, but he can't be claimed to be any more of a "winner" than Kobe, who holds a 5-3 edge in rings (and a 7-5 edge in Finals.)
Is your .455 number an average of season (finals) averages or his actual finals fg% (i.e. total finals makes divided by total finals shots)?

[bwink23]

Jordan's numbers should be better, he faced weaker defenses. Even if you completely ignore the fact Jordan's era was inflated offensively. You don't need defensive rating to know that the outside of the Sonics none of the other defenses Jordan faced in the Finals compare to the average Kobe defense. That's the reason nobody has bothered to rank the defensive teams yet. Its a laughable comparison.



It's common sense. Watch any great defense play. They are going to limit fast break opportunities and offensive teams are going to use more of the shot clock trying to come up with a good shot. A terrible defense is going to allow many fast break opportunities and the offensive team isn't going to need the entire shot clock to get a good shot off.


Then you should have no problems seeing that the 1991 Chicago Bulls were a better defensive team than the 2003 Washington Wizards, right??

WATCH THE GAMES....then make a common sense basketball decision......:lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Because he's a 3-point chucker, duh...most guys he jack 3's have a higher eFG% than guys that don't...:facepalm

THANK GOD the NBA didn't make it a 4-pointer :lol
What? WHAT? WHAT???

****ing dumbass :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

.412 fg (333/808)
.848 ft (223/263)
.314 3pt (48/153)
.442 efg
.507 ts

As for efficiency, 2002 Finals was the only one Kobe was great.
.514 fg - .545 3pt - .806 ft - .557 efg - .623 ts

If we exclude 2002 Finals;
.408 fg (297/728)
.855 ft (194/227)
.296 3pt (42/142)
.437 efg
.501 ts
Tim Duncan

2007 Finals: .483 TS%
2005 Finals: .471 TS%

Half his finals he shot 48 TS% or below, and he's a big man.

http://i.imgur.com/CNiQi.jpg

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Then you should have no problems seeing that the 1991 Chicago Bulls were a better defensive team than the 2003 Washington Wizards, right??

WATCH THE GAMES....then make a common sense basketball decision......:lol

Ive already given you permission to use your superior :lol defensive ranking methodology to rank the Finals teams. I don't understand the holdup. Neither the 1999 Bulls nor the 2003 Wizards are part of the comparison.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Why does Kobe have 3 Playoff runs to the NBA Finals where he shot more efficiently than Barkley in his lone Playoff run to the NBA Finals?

Barkley '93 Playoffs: .488 eFG%, .552 TS%

Kobe '08 Playoffs: .514 eFG%, .577 TS%
Kobe '09 Playoffs: .492 eFG%, .564 TS% (won Championship)
Kobe '10 Playoffs: .506 eFG%, .567 TS% (won Championship)
Round Mound still hasn't responded

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SVnltz5_BSg/T7L1b2H_TyI/AAAAAAAAElg/TP2zaPmVZoI/shakeweight.gif

[bwink23]

Ive already given you permission to use your superior :lol defensive ranking methodology to rank the Finals teams. I don't understand the holdup. Neither the 1999 Bulls nor the 2003 Wizards are part of the comparison.


The only ranking system you need is the pair of eyes in your head...:rockon:

91 Bulls>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2003 Wizards

[jlauber]

Is your .455 number an average of season (finals) averages or his actual finals fg% (i.e. total finals makes divided by total finals shots)?

Actually I was wrong. It is .4577 or .456. 260-568.

'81 39-93
'84 62-128 *
'85 53-118 *
'86 53-110
'87 53-119 *

* denotes against LA.

BTW, Bird shot 19-44 from the arc in his five Finals, or .431 (which was way over his career post-season mark of .321... 80-249), and 241-524 from 2-pt distance, or .460.

[Owl]

It's common sense. Watch any great defense play. They are going to limit fast break opportunities and offensive teams are going to use more of the shot clock trying to come up with a good shot. A terrible defense is going to allow many fast break opportunities and the offensive team isn't going to need the entire shot clock to get a good shot off.
You could just as easily say good defensive teams cause (quick) turnovers leading to fast breaks and high pace.

You've provided no proof that defense influences pace more than pace influences defense.

Beside which as I noted Jordan's shooting percentages were far superior to his "weak d/great o" peers, wheras Kobe's aren't particularly impressive or notably outstanding relative to his "weak o/great d" peers.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You could just as easily say good defensive teams cause (quick) turnovers leading to fast breaks and high pace.

You've provided no proof that defense influences pace more than pace influences defense.

Beside which as I noted Jordan's shooting percentages were far superior to his "weak d/great o" peers, wheras Kobe's aren't particularly impressive or notably outstanding relative to his "weak o/great d" peers.

:confusedshrug: Its not impossible to have a low defensive rating and a high pace or a low defensive rating and a slow pace. That's the entire point. Just blindly going fast or slow isn't going to improve your defensive efficiency. There is no proof to suggesting otherwise.

[97 bulls]

:confusedshrug: Its not impossible to have a low defensive rating and a high pace or a low defensive rating and a slow pace. That's the entire point. Just blindly going fast or slow isn't going to improve your defensive efficiency. There is no proof to suggesting otherwise.
But how bout the fact that you cant compare across eras like that. Case and point, the 96 bulls led the league in offense and ppg. I believe they avg 105 ppg. Compare that to what teams were avg in the 80s. Lets take 86 for instance. That 105 ppg would put them in fifth from the last spot.

Does this comprehend?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

But how bout the fact that you cant compare across eras like that case and point, the 96 bulls led the league in offense and ppg. I believe they avg 105 ppg. Compare that to what teams were avg in the 80s. Lets take 86magic for instance. That 105 ppg would put them in fifth from the last spot.

Does this comprehend?

Of course it does. Then why is it ok to compare offensive statistics across eras but not defensive statistics? My stats only come into play when people are making comparisons on offense across eras.

[Leviathon1121]

If only your boy had the ability to put up better numbers, you wouldn't have to go to such great lengths to excuse his play.

Excuses, excuses, excuses, the Kobe Bryant fan method of argument.

[97 bulls]

Of course it does. Then why is it ok to compare offensive statistics across eras but not defensive statistics? My stats only come into play when people are making comparisons on offense across eras.
The thing you fail to realize is that most people attribute kobe bryants low fg% to his BAD SHOT SELECTION. far too often, kobe has the tendency to take ill-advised shots. Bad shot selection reach across all eras.

[Nevaeh]

Of course it does. Then why is it ok to compare offensive statistics across eras but not defensive statistics? My stats only come into play when people are making comparisons on offense across eras.

But when people point out how Kobe struggles against defenses that his direct peers excelled against you just ignore it anyway. Durant and Lebron were top 25 in FG% for the 2012 season. Kobe was in the top 80. Can you explain that one?
:confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

But when people point out how Kobe struggles against defenses that his direct peers excelled against you just ignore it anyway. Durant and Lebron were top 25 in FG% for the 2012 season. Kobe was in the top 80. Can you explain that one?
:confusedshrug:
Exactly. If Bryant avg 30 ppg on 49% not even 50-53%, there would have a much stronger argument. But thats just not the case

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The thing you fail to realize is that most people attribute kobe bryants low fg% to his BAD SHOT SELECTION. far too often, kobe has the tendency to take ill-advised shots. Bad shot selection reach across all eras.

Did Jordan suddenly pick up the illness of BAD SHOT SELECTION when he faced the sub 100 defensive rated Heat and Knicks in the playoffs?

[97 bulls]

I have a feeling hes not gonna reply. Hell just go off and spout that nonsense in another thread to be owned

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Exactly. If Bryant avg 30 ppg on 49% not even 50-53%, there would have a much stronger argument. But thats just not the case

Whats the differences between Jordan's stats against sub 100 defensive rated teams in the playoffs and Kobe's stats in the Finals against sub 100 defensive rated teams?

[Nevaeh]

Whats the differences between Jordan's stats against sub 100 defensive rated teams in the playoffs and Kobe's stats in the Finals against sub 100 defensive rated teams?

Kobe had Shaq (a more efficient and consistent Player) for more than half of his Finals appearances to take pressure off of him, yet he still struggled. Those "All World" defenses didn't seem to affect Shaq too much, did they?
:confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

Did Jordan suddenly pick up the illness of BAD SHOT SELECTION when he faced the sub 100 defensive rated Heat and Knicks in the playoffs?
No, theyre great defenses. The knicks, pistons, heat, jazz, and sonics were some of the greatest defensive teams ever. And as a whole, he never shot as bad as kobe on a regular basis. Kobes bad shooting goes wayyyy past the finals. In the regular season kobes managed to shoot a best of 46% once in his career. Hes not playing alltime defenses every night is he?

[97 bulls]

Whats the differences between Jordan's stats against sub 100 defensive rated teams in the playoffs and Kobe's stats in the Finals against sub 100 defensive rated teams?
The teams jordan played were just flat out better defensively. You really gonna try to put the magic and an old celtic squad againt the pistons? The heat? The knicks? The sonics?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The teams jordan played were just flat out better defensively. You really gonna try to put the magic and an old celtic squad againt the pistons? The heat? The knicks? The sonics?

The Magic were the top ranked defensive team in the league in 2009.

The old Celtics had one of the most improved defenses in the playoffs in history

"The 2010 Celtics are the 4th-most-improved playoff team ever, trailing only the '88 Pistons, the '98 Jazz... and those pesky 2001 Lakers again. The Celts' defense has been better in these playoffs -- and against a tougher offensive SOS -- than they were during their epic 2008 regular-season run, when they were one of the best defenses of all time."

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6237

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120213055636/uncyclopedia/images/5/52/Double-facepalm.jpg

[OldSchoolBBall]

The old Celtics had one of the most improved defenses in the playoffs in history

"The 2010 Celtics are the 4th-most-improved playoff team ever, trailing only the '88 Pistons, the '98 Jazz... and those pesky 2001 Lakers again. The Celts' defense has been better in these playoffs -- and against a tougher offensive SOS -- than they were during their epic 2008 regular-season run, when they were one of the best defenses of all time."

All that, and yet...




Yeah, no bias here at all. :oldlol:

2010 Celts in the postseason held opponents to 91.1 ppg/43.2% FG/52.6% TS

1998 Jazz in the postseason held opponents to 86.9 ppg/41.4% FG/49.5% TS

1997 Jazz in the postseason held opponents to 92.8 ppg/43.8% FG/53.5% TS

2001 Sixers in the postseason held opponents to 92.4 ppg/44.2% FG/52.6% TS

1996 Sonics in the postseason held opponents to 92.7 ppg/43.1% FG/51.7% TS

Yeah...there's a huge difference there, and your rankings are completely justified. :rolleyes: :oldlol: Kobe's Finals failures and wretched play are well-documented, and acting like it's all because of the quality of defense is absurd when A) Kobe also has numerous crappy shooting series against lesser defensive teams (much more so than Jordan) and B) Kobe's peers routinely played/shot better against the same opponents (see: Carter averaging 31/6/6/48% FG vs. Philly in the '01 playoffs versus Kobe's 25/8/6/42% FG; Wade averaging 33/6/7/56% FG vs. the '10 Celtcs versus Kobe's 29/8/4/41% FG etc.). Just a huge joke that these Kobe stans try to rationalize every damn failure. :oldlol:

[Mr. Jabbar]

He has made enough buckets to make 5 rings out of 7 appearances :applause:

[sic]

He has made enough buckets to make 5 rings out of 7 appearances :applause:



Thank you shaq and Phil Jackson

[Yao Ming's Foot]

All that, and yet...

I'm sure those numbers were not cherry picked or anything

2004 Detroit Pistons 80.7 ppg/39.2% FG

1993 Phoenix Suns 104.0ppg/47.1% FG

I'm shocked they didn't make the list

:rolleyes:

[OldSchoolBBall]

I'm sure those numbers were not cherry picked or anything

2004 Detroit Pistons 80.7 ppg/39.2% FG

1993 Phoenix Suns 104.0ppg/47.1% FG

I'm shocked they didn't make the list

:rolleyes:

What cherry-picking? I listed exactly waht each team help opponents to in the playoffs in the seasons noted. Too bad you can't deal with the data, or the fact that your rankings make zero sense in light of it.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What cherry-picking? I listed exactly waht each team help opponents to in the playoffs in the seasons noted. Too bad you can't deal with the data, or the fact that your rankings make zero sense in light of it.

Your right "my rankings" do not take into the account random playoff performances cherry picked by you. The reason why that is "my ranking" is not "my ranking" at all. Its is a simple defensive rating formula based on efficiency per possession during the entire regular season. I've begged for the Jordanites to rank the defensive teams all day today and still have nothing to show for it. If defensive rating is flawed then show me your system that is superior, rank the teams using your own methodology. :confusedshrug:

[97 bulls]

I'm sure those numbers were not cherry picked or anything

2004 Detroit Pistons 80.7 ppg/39.2% FG

1993 Phoenix Suns 104.0ppg/47.1% FG

I'm shocked they didn't make the list

:rolleyes:
The 04 pistons were one of the greatest defensive teams ever. As were the 08 Celtics. But what about kobes fg% as a whole? Not just a few playoffs series. Its just below par. And flat out bad for what some consider an all-time great.

[LA_Showtime]

I think as time goes on Kobe's place among the all time greats will change. He was and is a damn good player, but all evidence points to the fact he may have been overrated for the majority of his career. That, or LeBron and Durant will just bump him out. :oldlol:

[dreamshake]

Doesn't Lebron hold this record?

[jlauber]

If this topic is about Kobe's "poor FG%'s" in his Finals, so what? He was the best player on the floor in his last two titles, and was a key player in the first three, particularly the WCF's.

However, if this topic is an attempt to compare Kobe's Finals' career to MJ's...well that is a waste of time. 6-2 is all anyone needs to know.

[dreamshake]

If this topic is about Kobe's "poor FG%'s" in his Finals, so what? He was the best player on the floor in his last two titles, and was a key player in the first three, particularly the WCF's.

However, if this topic is an attempt to compare Kobe's Finals' career to MJ's...well that is a waste of time. 6-2 is all anyone needs to know.

6-2 isn't that much better than 5-2 :biggums:

[Derivative]

I think as time goes on Kobe's place among the all time greats will change. He was and is a damn good player, but all evidence points to the fact he may have been overrated for the majority of his career. That, or LeBron and Durant will just bump him out. :oldlol:

this is what i thought as well. As time goes up, the hype wears off, and people can start looking at the past without bias. When they see the circumstances Kobe had(prime Shaq), and the less-than-superb stats he had, his ranking all time will get dropped quite a bit.

[jlauber]

6-2 isn't that much better than 5-2 :biggums:

It is when it is a FMVP.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

this is what i thought as well. As time goes up, the hype wears off, and people can start looking at the past without bias. When they see the circumstances Kobe had(prime Shaq), and the less-than-superb stats he had, his ranking all time will get dropped quite a bit.

(3 Shaq years + 2 Gasol years)/5 < the title team supporting cast of any other legendary player in history

[Derivative]

(3 Shaq years + 2 Gasol years)/5 < the title team supporting cast of any other legendary player in history


Shaq in his prime was the most dominant player after MJ. and Gasol in those 2 years are everyway as good as scottie pippen.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Shaq in his prime was the most dominant player after MJ. and Gasol in those 2 years are everyway as good as scottie pippen.

I'm sure if Kobe retired in 08, Gasol would have led the 09 Lakers to the WCF and been among 3 Lakers to make the all star team.

:oldlol:

[Derivative]

I'm sure if Kobe retired in 08, Gasol would have led the 09 Lakers to the WCF and been among 3 Lakers to make the all star team.

:oldlol:

i am sure is shaq retired in 1999, kobe would have lead the 00-02 lakers to the WCF with glen rice and derek fisher

the gap between shaq and kobe is bigger than kobe and gasol

[Deuce Bigalow]

i am sure is shaq retired in 1999, kobe would have lead the 00-02 lakers to the WCF with glen rice and derek fisher

the gap between shaq and kobe is bigger than kobe and gasol
Post their playoff stats :oldlol:

[Round Mound]

Round Mound still hasn't responded

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SVnltz5_BSg/T7L1b2H_TyI/AAAAAAAAElg/TP2zaPmVZoI/shakeweight.gif

Barkley only made the finals once because he had sucky teams with the Sixers and played in the Most Difficult Era the 80s and then the 90s that was dominated by Michael-Scottie and Phil Jackson

Bryant was LUCKY AS HELL TO PLAY WITH PRIME SHAQ (the Best Player in the Game in the Late 90s and Early 00s) and then a TWIN TOWER SYSTEM in Gasol/Bynum and Odom. Yes Odom. The Lakers miss his All Around Game.

Another Thing You Forgot is that Barkley INJURED HIS ELBOW in Game 2 of The Final Series...That Affected his Shooting.

You forgot to Mention that Barkley shot 55.13% Two-Point FG for 22.5 PPG in the Play-Offs while Taking ONLY 14.5 Two-Point FGAs PG compared to the Ball Hogg who needs to Shoot 30 Times to Get 30 on Below 45% FG while THE OTHER TEAM DOUBLES THE PAINT WHERE SHAQ USED TO OPERATE AND BYNUM AND GASOL OPERATE TODAY.

Barkley Prime was Superior to ANY Bryant as a Player

[Deuce Bigalow]

Barkley only made the finals once because he had sucky teams with the Sixers and played in the Most Difficult Era the 80s and then the 90s that was dominated by Michael-Scottie and Phil Jackson

Bryant was LUCKY AS HELL TO PLAY WITH PRIME SHAQ (the Best Player in the Game in the Late 90s and Early 00s) and then a TWIN TOWER SYSTEM in Gasol/Bynum and Odom. Yes Odom. The Lakers miss his All Around Game.

Another Thing You Forgot is that Barkley INJURED HIS ELBOW in Game 2 of The Final Series...That Affected his Shooting.

You forgot to Mention that Barkley shot 55.13% Two-Point FG for 22.5 PPG in the Play-Offs while Taking ONLY 14.5 Two-Point FGAs PG compared to the Ball Hogg who needs to Shoot 30 Times to Get 30 on Below 45% FG while THE OTHER TEAM DOUBLES THE PAINT WHERE SHAQ USED TO OPERATE AND BYNUM AND GASOL OPERATE TODAY.

Barkley Prime was Superior to ANY Bryant as a Player
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5290/5301748815_a6b87be193_o.gif

[Flagrant 2]

Barkley only made the finals once because he had sucky teams with the Sixers and played in the Most Difficult Era the 80s and then the 90s that was dominated by Michael-Scottie and Phil Jackson

Bryant was LUCKY AS HELL TO PLAY WITH PRIME SHAQ (the Best Player in the Game in the Late 90s and Early 00s) and then a TWIN TOWER SYSTEM in Gasol/Bynum and Odom. Yes Odom. The Lakers miss his All Around Game.

Another Thing You Forgot is that Barkley INJURED HIS ELBOW in Game 2 of The Final Series...That Affected his Shooting.

You forgot to Mention that Barkley shot 55.13% Two-Point FG for 22.5 PPG in the Play-Offs while Taking ONLY 14.5 Two-Point FGAs PG compared to the Ball Hogg who needs to Shoot 30 Times to Get 30 on Below 45% FG while THE OTHER TEAM DOUBLES THE PAINT WHERE SHAQ USED TO OPERATE AND BYNUM AND GASOL OPERATE TODAY.

Barkley Prime was Superior to ANY Bryant as a Player
http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/175758.gif

[Round Mound]

http://www.strangecosmos.com/images/content/175758.gif

And He Has The GOAT Golf Swing

:oldlol: :roll: :applause: :cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

If only your boy had the ability to put up better numbers, you wouldn't have to go to such great lengths to excuse his play.

Excuses, excuses, excuses, the Kobe Bryant fan method of argument.
http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/291443-1/Kobe+Bryant+gives+two+thumbs+up+wearing+t-shirt+with+x-ray+hand+with+five+rings.JPG

[LakersReign]

Excuses, excuses, excuses, the bandwagon jumping Lebron fan method of argument.

FTFY....since nobody was buying into your crap:lol

[Calabis]

Of course it does. Then why is it ok to compare offensive statistics across eras but not defensive statistics? My stats only come into play when people are making comparisons on offense across eras.

Because if Jordan took 22 FGA a game and so does Kobe, thats comparable!!!!....well, except to morons like you, who believe Kobe goes against these uber athletes with the best defense ever/all- time, and Jordan played against these 5 foot white business men, who simply moved out his way.

Since you are so hung up defense, please explain why there were more DPOY on the perimeter in Jordan's era, all this while having the best defensive bigs of any era?

[guy]

I'm sure if Kobe retired in 08, Gasol would have led the 09 Lakers to the WCF and been among 3 Lakers to make the all star team.

:oldlol:

Pippen led the Bulls to the 2nd round, not the ECF. Its definitely possible that Gasol could've led the Lakers to the 2nd round, especially considering that in 09 and 10 there really wasn't any overly dominant WCF team such as the 2011 Mavs or the 2012 Thunder and Spurs. And yes, its possible they could've put out 3 all-stars with Bynum and Odom stepping up in Kobe's absence since its obvious the presence of Kobe held those players down statistically (not saying that it shouldn't have been that way, but clearly that had an effect on them individually.)

:oldlol: At the idea that Kobe has had less help then anyone else, especially when he was playing with Shaq. He's had so much help he was "the help" for most of his championships.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Because if Jordan took 22 FGA a game and so does Kobe, thats comparable!!!!....well, except to morons like you, who believe Kobe goes against these uber athletes with the best defense ever/all- time, and Jordan played against these 5 foot white business men, who simply moved out his way.

Since you are so hung up defense, please explain why there were more DPOY on the perimeter in Jordan's era, all this while having the best defensive bigs of any era?

The entire premise is false. They didn't have the best defensive bigs of any era. The fact that many wing players were able to win the DPOY just goes to show you how unimpressive the defensive impact of the big man in that era were.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Pippen led the Bulls to the 2nd round, not the ECF. Its definitely possible that Gasol could've led the Lakers to the 2nd round, especially considering that in 09 and 10 there really wasn't any overly dominant WCF team such as the 2011 Mavs or the 2012 Thunder and Spurs. And yes, its possible they could've put out 3 all-stars with Bynum and Odom stepping up in Kobe's absence since its obvious the presence of Kobe held those players down statistically (not saying that it shouldn't have been that way, but clearly that had an effect on them individually.)

:oldlol: At the idea that Kobe has had less help then anyone else, especially when he was playing with Shaq. He's had so much help he was "the help" for most of his championships.

Bynum averaged 54 starts a game from 09-11.

Odom's career high are not good enough to make an all star team.

If Bynum and Odom are putting up all star numbers then Pau Gasol would not be.


The idea that championship help for Kobe championship help equals a single player and not the entire roster is comedy. Why is it only the best teammate counts and not the 2nd and 3rd best teammate as well?

LeBron is as statistically dominant right now as Shaq ever was. Are you telling me that if Bosh had remained injured, Wade would have had an amazing supporting cast compared someone like Bird having 5 Hall of Famers on his team. ?

[guy]

Bynum averaged 54 starts a game from 09-11.

Odom's career high are not good enough to make an all star team.

If Bynum and Odom are putting up all star numbers then Pau Gasol would not be.


The idea that championship help for Kobe championship help equals a single player and not the entire roster is comedy. Why is it only the best teammate counts and not the 2nd and 3rd best teammate as well?

LeBron is as statistically dominant right now as Shaq ever was. Are you telling me that if Bosh had remained injured, Wade would have had an amazing supporting cast compared someone like Bird having 5 Hall of Famers on his team. ?

Bynum put up 15/8 in 2009 and 2010 playing pretty much all of the games prior to the all-star break. Those numbers are undoubtedly up without Kobe. Odom put up 10/7 and 10/10 in 2009 and 2010 off the bench prior to the all-star break. Those numbers are undoubtedly up without Kobe. By the way, BJ put up 15/3/4 and Horace Grant put up 15/11 in their all-star year. Maybe not in Grant's case, but Bynum's numbers those years are already better then Armstrong's and would've been even more without Kobe, and there's no doubt in my mind that Odom would've put up better numbers then BJ without Kobe as well.

Kobe had arguably the most dominant center in his prime and then a bunch of the best role players ever for his first 3 titles. Thats plenty of help.

Lebron is not as great as Shaq in his prime. Thats ridiculous. And when did Bird ever have 5 HOFers on his team?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Bynum put up 15/8 in 2009 and 2010 playing pretty much all of the games prior to the all-star break. Those numbers are undoubtedly up without Kobe. Odom put up 10/7 and 10/10 in 2009 and 2010 off the bench prior to the all-star break. Those numbers are undoubtedly up without Kobe. By the way, BJ put up 15/3/4 and Horace Grant put up 15/11 in their all-star year. Maybe not in Grant's case, but Bynum's numbers those years are already better then Armstrong's and would've been even more without Kobe, and there's no doubt in my mind that Odom would've put up better numbers then BJ without Kobe as well.

Kobe had arguably the most dominant center in his prime and then a bunch of the best role players ever for his first 3 titles. Thats plenty of help.

Lebron is not as great as Shaq in his prime. Thats ridiculous. And when did Bird ever have 5 HOFers on his team?

"a bunch of the best role players ever" :oldlol:

Name them. Show their stats. You are nuts.

1981 Boston Celtics (NBA)

Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Robert Parish
Tiny Archibald


1984 Boston Celtics (NBA)

Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Robert Parish
Dennis Johnson

1986 Boston Celtics (NBA)

Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Robert Parish
Dennis Johnson
Bill Walton

[guy]

"a bunch of the best role players ever" :oldlol:

Name them. Show their stats. You are nuts.

1981 Boston Celtics (NBA)

Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Robert Parish
Tiny Archibald


1984 Boston Celtics (NBA)

Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Robert Parish
Dennis Johnson

1986 Boston Celtics (NBA)

Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Robert Parish
Dennis Johnson
Bill Walton

Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Brian Shaw, Ron Harper, etc. Those teams had multiple players that played their roles to perfection and had significant experience and impacts on other teams in their careers. I don't need to post stats. A role players' impact is rarely ever captured by stats because they are role players that will obviously defer to the star players on the team. Why would you expect them to put up significant stats when they were playing with two of the most dominant players ever who were both putting up near 30 per game?

So according to your logic, I can say Kobe played with 3 HOFers in 2004 right? If Bynum becomes a HOFer with his play going forward, I can say he played with 2 HOFers from 08-12 right? You sound just as stupid as some of the extreme Kobe haters that you argue with.

Kevin McHale put up 10/4 in 1981 and Tiny Archibald put up 14/8 in 1981. They weren't playing at a HOF level at that point of their careers. Bill Walton was far from playing at a HOF level in 1986. You could argue Dennis Johnson wasn't playing at a HOF level in those years either. Its funny, cause Kobe fans like yourself try to use these type of arguments for his teams then don't take that context into account for the older teams of the great players you compare Kobe to.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Brian Shaw, Ron Harper, etc. Those teams had multiple players that played their roles to perfection and had significant experience and impacts on other teams in their careers. I don't need to post stats. A role players' impact is rarely ever captured by stats because they are role players that will obviously defer to the star players on the team. Why would you expect them to put up significant stats when they were playing with two of the most dominant players ever who were both putting up near 30 per game?

So according to your logic, I can say Kobe played with 3 HOFers in 2004 right? If Bynum becomes a HOFer with his play going forward, I can say he played with 2 HOFers from 08-12 right? You sound just as stupid as some of the extreme Kobe haters that you argue with.

Kevin McHale put up 10/4 in 1981 and Tiny Archibald put up 14/8 in 1981. They weren't playing at a HOF level at that point of their careers. Bill Walton was far from playing at a HOF level in 1986. You could argue Dennis Johnson wasn't playing at a HOF level in those years either. Its funny, cause Kobe fans like yourself try to use these type of arguments for his teams then don't take that context into account for the older teams of the great players you compare Kobe to.

Which would you rather use?

All star during the championship season?

Kobe won 5 rings with 1 all star teammate per title year.

Anybody else do that?

Kobe won 5 rings without an all league 1st team defensive teammate?

Anybody else do that?

The only way Kobe's teams are stacked by any historical standards are if you ignore his last two championships and focus one prime Shaq. Basketball isn't a 2 vs 2 sport. You don't want to list his GOAT roleplayer's stats because it was an insane comment to make. Every role player has diminished stats that why they are conisdered roleplayers. Show me how their stats are above and beyond other roleplayers making them worthy of the GOAT label you just placed on them.

[Bigsmoke]

he got rings so I think he can sleep at night with those FG%

[guy]

Which would you rather use?

All star during the championship season?

Kobe won 5 rings with 1 all star teammate per title year.

Anybody else do that?

Kobe won 5 rings without an all league 1st team defensive teammate?

Anybody else do that?

The only way Kobe's teams are stacked by any historical standards are if you ignore his last two championships and focus one prime Shaq. Basketball isn't a 2 vs 2 sport. You don't want to list his GOAT roleplayer's stats because it was an insane comment to make. Every role player has diminished stats that why they are conisdered roleplayers. Show me how their stats are above and beyond other roleplayers making them worthy of the GOAT label you just placed on them.

Once again, you post bullshit arbitrary stuff removing all context. You could do that with ANYONE and make them look more impressive then someone that didn't. And actually, Jordan actually won 6 rings with 2/3 of an all-star per year. Pippen didn't make it for two of those years. See, I could remove context too. And if you're going to count Pippen as an all-star every year just cause he made other all-star teams, and also count Horace Grant, BJ Armstrong, and Dennis Rodman for making all-star teams in other years besides the championship years, then according to your logic you should also include Glen Rice and Andrew Bynum, and also say he couldn't with other all-stars such as Karl Malone and Gary Payton. Hakeem also won two titles without an all-star. Duncan won 1 title without an all-star. Dirk won 1 title without an all-star. See, these are clearly more impressive then anything Kobe has done when you remove context (alot of those you can argue anyway even with context, but thats not the point.)

:oldlol: @ just making it seem like Shaq is this regular all-star. Shit, you're not even giving Gasol that much credit who was probably the 2nd best PF in the league in those 2 years. How many of the the top 10 players that Kobe is compared to actually won titles with someone that was also winning MVPs during that time? Magic is the only other one. There, another arbitrary achievement.

And by the way, using "all-stars" isn't really even an apples-oranges comparison when you compare across eras, especially to the 80s. Kobe's Lakers played in an era with 29-30 teams. Bird's Celtics during their title runs played in an era with 23 teams. With that being the case, since the # of all-star spots didn't actually change, of course there's going to be a decrease in all-stars per team.

What was an insane comment to make? That they were playing with some of the greatest role players ever? He was. I didn't post stats, cause stats don't capture a role players impact that much. What do you want me to do? Compare Rick Fox's stats to Steve Kerr's? Yes, there stats are diminished due to being role players. I did say they were GOAT "role" players, not GOAT "players". I know its not a 2 on 2 sport. That doesn't mean Shaq and Kobe were playing with 3 Kwame Browns. They were playing with experienced and/or fearless teammates that stepped up when it mattered most. Seriously, I can't count how many big moments and times the Laker role players have been the biggest reason for the Lakers winning a big game during the title years. You're making it seem like Kobe should be praised cause he was "ONLY" playing with Shaq and wasn't also playing with Jason Kidd and Paul Pierce or that he was "ONLY" playing with Gasol/Bynum/Odom and wasn't also playing with Chris Paul and Rudy Gay :oldlol:

[Nevaeh]

Good post Guy. YMF has been on a mission ever since his boy failed to secure his own 3-peat last season. He'll just ignore all of the points in your post, point out a couple of games where Jordan struggled, and then feel like he's "winning" in his crusade to bring down MJ, while at the same time still holding Kobe to the "Jordan Standard" of greatness.
:oldlol:

[guy]

Good post Guy. YMF has been on a mission ever since his boy failed to secure his own 3-peat last season. He'll just ignore all of the points in your post, point out a couple of games where Jordan struggled, and then feel like he's "winning" in his crusade to bring down MJ, while at the same time still holding Kobe to the "Jordan Standard" of greatness.
:oldlol:

Its ridiculous. You would think Shaq was Yao Ming or Gasol was Kenyon Martin the way people talk about Kobe's teams.

[guy]

By the way, Kobe fans love to bring up the BJ Armstrong all-star appearance. What they don't realize is that he was VOTED in and that was 100% attributed to the fact that the Bulls were still by far the most popular team in the league and Jordan wasn't there anymore. He actually started in that game. He had absolutely no business getting an all-star nod over Mark Price, Mookie Blaylock, John Starks, Reggie Miller, or Anfernee Hardaway, with the former two not even making the all-star team.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I give credit to Dirk, Hakeem etc.. all for winning a title or two with only one other all star/HOF teammate. They just didn't win 5 and nobody has the audacity to claim there teams were overly stacked and thus less worthy of praise.

I'm pretty sure Bron is trying to win his 1st title again with 2 all star teammates, Durant is trying with 1 all star, 1 dpoy runner up and all defensive team selection and one 6th man award winner. Kobe's last title came against a 3 all star team in 2010. Isn't it amazing how the Kobe era is the only era of basketball where having one all star teammate = stacked? :oldlol:

Why is that you go from Kobe to roleplayers your obsession switches from statistics to the completely arbitrary definition "big moments"? Every title team has role players with "big moments". I'm sure Kobe would prefer having a 2nd all star teammate with his own big moments over a scrub with big moments.

It doesn't really have anything to do with Jordan. If I wanted to expose the Jordan myth today I would just post the stats from the Dream Team and have his sycophants try to explain why he was least efficient player on the team.

http://i.imgur.com/5No7e.png

[KingBeasley08]

^ Who cares about "all-stars"? Its a useless stat. Yao Ming was an all-star last year and he played about 2 min the whole season. Its about how role players play within a certain system. And now efficiency matters? Well then whats the argument lol? Might do with the fact he attempted a lot more shots than anyone else

[guy]

I give credit to Dirk, Hakeem etc.. all for winning a title or two with only one other all star/HOF teammate. They just didn't win 5 and nobody has the audacity to claim there teams were overly stacked and thus less worthy of praise.

I'm pretty sure Bron is trying to win his 1st title again with 2 all star teammates, Durant is trying with 1 all star, 1 dpoy runner up and all defensive team selection and one 6th man award winner. Kobe's last title came against a 3 all star team in 2010. Isn't it amazing how the Kobe era is the only era of basketball where having one all star teammate = stacked? :oldlol:

Why is that you go from Kobe to roleplayers your obsession switches from statistics to the completely arbitrary definition "big moments"? Every title team has role players with "big moments". I'm sure Kobe would prefer having a 2nd all star teammate with his own big moments over a scrub with big moments.

It doesn't really have anything to do with Jordan. If I wanted to expose the Jordan myth today I would just post the stats from the Dream Team and have his sycophants try to explain why he was least efficient player on the team.

http://i.imgur.com/5No7e.png

Thanks for not refuting the fact that those points you made were arbitrary bullshit completely lacking context.

Who's knocking on Lebron or Durant's supporting cast? No one here is acting like Lebron or Durant are at some kind of disadvantage and that they are doing what they are doing in spite of their teammates like you are doing with Kobe.

When does anyone ever point to role players and bring up stats? In any conversation? The reason people don't is cause role players' stats are mostly a function of their minutes played which is much more inconsistent and how a star player and coach utilizes them unlike star players where there stats are mostly a function of just how dominant they are.

Kobe's had multiple teammates with big moments. I'm sure he would rather have a better 2nd best teammate. So what? You say that though as if his BEST teammate was just an average "BEST" teammate. Aside from ego reasons, you think Kobe or his GM would've given up prime Shaq+whoever for Pippen+Grant? Pippen+Rodman? Sheed+Smith? Webber+Bibby? Wade+Bosh? Westbrook+Harden? You're idiotic if you think that. And thats my point.

:oldlol: Nice to see you've lowered yourself to bringing up Dream Team stats.

[KingBeasley08]

Mo Williams + Gilbert Arenas >>>>> Kobe Bryant

Lettuce be real. You'd take these 2 over Kobe because 2 all-stars is better than 1 :oldlol: :facepalm

[TheBluest]

It doesn't really have anything to do with Jordan. If I wanted to expose the Jordan myth today I would just post the stats from the Dream Team and have his sycophants try to explain why he was least efficient player on the team.


Naw don't do that to yourself I mean Wade/Bron/CP3 even Melo to a degree outplayed Kobe on Redeem Team and he was learning to steal moves from CP3 you know what he normally does...COPY CATS

If you go look up those stats Kobe did not have a good TS% oRtg or dRtg compared to the other players. The only thing he did fairly well was shoot 2pt shots

EDIT: Even with that said the Dream Team-Basketball Olympic team games are more along the lines of Glorified Exhibition than anything else compared to NBA Championship Games

[guy]

Mo Williams + Gilbert Arenas >>>>> Kobe Bryant

Lettuce be real. You'd take these 2 over Kobe because 2 all-stars is better than 1 :oldlol: :facepalm

:oldlol:

[longtime lurker]

Kobe Bryant, the only player in NBA history that can win and still be called a failure :oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Isn't it amazing how Shaq is >>>> 2 average all stars yet the players he was traded for in 04 only made 2 all stars teams in their entire careers?

:confusedshrug:

[KingBeasley08]

Isn't it amazing how Shaq is >>>> 2 average all stars yet the players he was traded for in 04 only made 2 all stars teams in their entire careers?

:confusedshrug:
ok? Shaq won 3 titles.. lakers had to trade shaq. :oldlol: at this kid acting like it was some sort of great trade

[TheMarkMadsen]

Isn't it amazing how Shaq is >>>> 2 average all stars yet the players he was traded for in 04 only made 2 all stars teams in their entire careers?

:confusedshrug:

What's even funnier is how LA got the better end of that deal in the long run.

Odom was a major piece on 2 championship teams.

Just imagine if they keep caron butler

[Yao Ming's Foot]

ok? Shaq won 3 titles.. lakers had to trade shaq. :oldlol: at this kid acting like it was some sort of great trade

It's just amazing that the best offer the Lakers could get for a guy worth more than 2 all star/HOF players was Caron Butler, Lamar Odom and scraps.

[KingBeasley08]

It's just amazing that the best offer the Lakers could get for a guy worth more than 2 all star/HOF players was Caron Butler, Lamar Odom and scraps.
Who else could they have gotten? Best you can get for studs in the trade market is a few all-stars. Superstars for superstars never happen. Heck, Chris Paul went for 1 all-star only. Melo for none.

[TheBluest]

Isn't it amazing how Shaq is >>>> 2 average all stars yet the players he was traded for in 04 only made 2 all stars teams in their entire careers?

:confusedshrug:

Shaq was well past his prime

[guy]

Isn't it amazing how Shaq is >>>> 2 average all stars yet the players he was traded for in 04 only made 2 all stars teams in their entire careers?

:confusedshrug:

:oldlol: Are you stupid? Again removing context. Do you even know what "context" means? He was older and past his prime, wanted to leave, and somewhat was able to dictate where he went because he wasn't going to sign an extension somewhere he didn't want to go. Since when do teams get equal value for a superstar that WANTS to leave. I didn't say a GM wouldn't do those trades if Shaq actually WANTED to leave when he was almost 33 years old.

[97 bulls]

:oldlol: Are you stupid? Again removing context. Do you even know what "context" means? He was older and past his prime, wanted to leave, and somewhat was able to dictate where he went because he wasn't going to sign an extension somewhere he didn't want to go. Since when do teams get equal value for a superstar that WANTS to leave. I didn't say a GM wouldn't do those trades if Shaq actually WANTED to leave when he was almost 33 years old.
Not to mention shaq went on and won another championship with miami.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Shaq was well past his prime

2 years removed from being >>>>>>>> Worthy/Kareem, Rodman/Pippen, Parrish/Mchale/Johnson/Waltion, Parker/Ginobli, Pierce/Allen/Rondo, Wade/Bosh, Westbrook/Harden

:confusedshrug:

[TheBluest]

Who else could they have gotten? Best you can get for studs in the trade market is a few all-stars. Superstars for superstars never happen. Heck, Chris Paul went for 1 all-star only. Melo for none.

Yep and recent history proves this


Lebron went for none....lulz

Bosh went for none.....lulz

Deron went for none.....lulz

Pau went for none.....lulz

Garnett went for none....

Kidd went for 1 once and then none after he had went to 2 Final appearances

Ray Allen went for 1 once and then none after he had some of the best yrs of his career

Iverson went for 1 twice


The only player in recent memory who may have was T-Mac for Franchise and Cat(<----was he an All-Star?)

[TheBluest]

2 years removed from being >>>>>>>> Worthy/Kareem, Rodman/Pippen, Parrish/Mchale/Johnson/Waltion, Parker/Ginobli, Pierce/Allen/Rondo, Wade/Bosh, Westbrook/Harden

:confusedshrug:

You do realize in KobeTard worlds that last year Kobe>>>>>>>Jordan cause he won 5 and yet OKC wouldn't trade Durant for him now nor would Miami trade Bron for him....heck nor would Cleveland trade Kyrie for him


You're DUMB DUMB DUMB

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You do realize in KobeTard worlds that last year Kobe>>>>>>>Jordan cause he won 5 and yet OKC wouldn't trade Durant for him now nor would Miami trade Bron for him....heck nor would Cleveland trade Kyrie for him


You're DUMB DUMB DUMB

Does anybody suggest Pau Gasol's title be diminished because he won a couple of titles on a stacked team with a player apparently worth more than 2 all stars/HOFers?

[TheBluest]

Does anybody suggest Pau Gasol's title be diminished because he won a couple of titles on a stacked team with a player apparently worth more than 2 all stars/HOFers?


Every Laker who won their recent titles deserves credit but where your wires are crossed is that Kobe's performances in achieving his last 2 chips were not good at all and he had considerable help from his teammates to get them.

Now had Kobe had dominating performances like Shaq when they got those 3 chips the subject would be open for more discussion but Kobe has historically played near awful in the Finals especially post Shaq and Kobe was in his prime which is sad.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Every Laker who won their recent titles deserves credit but where you wires are crossed is that Kobe's performances in achieving his last 2 chips were not good at all and he had considerable help from his teammates to get them.

Now had Kobe had dominating performances like Shaq when they got those 3 chips the subject would be open for more discussion but Kobe has historically played near awful in the Finals especially post Shaq and Kobe was in his prime which is sad.

:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Every Laker who won their recent titles deserves credit but where you wires are crossed is that Kobe's performances in achieving his last 2 chips were not good at all and he had considerable help from his teammates to get them.

Now had Kobe had dominating performances like Shaq when they got those 3 chips the subject would be open for more discussion but Kobe has historically played near awful in the Finals especially post Shaq and Kobe was in his prime which is sad.
:facepalm :wtf:

2009 NBA Playoffs
30.2-5.3-5.5-.457 FG%-.492 eFG%-.564 TS%
32.4-5.6-7.4-.430 FG% Finals
34.0-5.8-5.8-.481 FG% Conference Finals

2010 NBA Playoffs
29.2-6.0-5.5-.458 FG%-.506 eFG%-.567 TS%
33.7-7.2-8.3-.521 FG% Conference Finals
32.0-3.8-5.8-.523 FG% Conference Semifinals

Back to Back Championships and Finals MVPs without an All-Time Great player

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Has any of the Jordan mythologists stepped up to the plate to rank the following defensive teams yet?


04 Pistons
01 76ers
08 Celtics
02 Nets
09 Magic
00 Pacers
10 Celtics
96 Sonics
97 Jazz
92 Blazers
91 Lakers
98 Jazz
93 Suns

What's taking so long?

[TheBluest]

:facepalm :wtf:

2009 NBA Playoffs
30.2-5.3-5.5-.457%-.492 eFG%-.564 TS%
32.4-5.6-7.4-.430% Finals
34.0-5.8-5.8-.481% Conference Finals

2010 NBA Playoffs
29.2-6.0-5.5-.458%-.506 eFG%-.567 TS%
33.7-7.2-8.3-.521% Conference Finals
32.0-3.8-5.8-.523% Conference Semifinals

Back to Back Championships and Finals MVPs without an All-Time Great player


FINALS not good bro sorry not someone who is constantly referred to as GOAT

I'm not talking about Semis of Conference...I'm talking straight up Finals post Shaq.....He's been TRASH

With no memorable moments whatsoever. I mean does the NBA show anything remotely significant from the last 2 Laker runs? NOPE because there's nothing memorable about them matter of fact unless you're a Laker or Kobe only fan the moments are FORGOTTEN MEMORIES

[Yao Ming's Foot]

FINALS not good bro sorry not someone who is constantly referred to as GOAT

I'm not talking about Semis of Conference...I'm talking straight up Finals post Shaq.....He's been TRASH

With no memorable moments whatsoever. I mean does the NBA show anything remotely significant from the last 2 Laker runs? NOPE because there's nothing memorable about them matter of fact unless you're a Laker or Kobe only fan the moments are FORGOTTEN MEMORIES

What are Shaq's memorable Finals moments?

:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

FINALS not good bro sorry not someone who is constantly referred to as GOAT

I'm not talking about Semis of Conference...I'm talking straight up Finals post Shaq.....He's been TRASH

With no memorable moments whatsoever. I mean does the NBA show anything remotely significant from the last 2 Laker runs? NOPE because there's nothing memorable about them matter of fact unless you're a Laker or Kobe only fan the moments are FORGOTTEN MEMORIES
'09 Finals: 32.4 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 7.4 apg, 43 FG%, 53 TS% - Championship & Finals MVP
'10 Finals: 28.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 41 FG%, 53 TS% - Championship & Finals MVP

Anything else moron?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

'09 Finals: 32.4 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 7.4 apg, 43 FG%, 53 TS% - Championship & Finals MVP
'10 Finals: 28.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 41 FG%, 53 TS% - Championship & Finals MVP

Anything else moron?

Yeah but did they make a commercial out of one his final moments!!!???

[SwayDizzle]

da fuuuuck?

[Cali Syndicate]

Kobe Bryant, the only player in NBA history that can win and still be called a failure :oldlol:

This. Next on the list Lebron.

[97 bulls]

Has any of the Jordan mythologists stepped up to the plate to rank the following defensive teams yet?


04 Pistons 1
01 76ers 6
08 Celtics 2
02 Nets 10
09 Magic 11
00 Pacers 7
10 Celtics 8
96 Sonics 3
97 Jazz 4
92 Blazers 9
91 Lakers 12
98 Jazz 5
93 Suns 13

What's taking so long?
Best post so far from you bro. It still doesnt prove why kobe is subpar career wise

[Nevaeh]

What are Shaq's memorable Finals moments?

:oldlol:

The better question is "What are Kobes"? :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

The better question is "What are Kobes"? :oldlol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiD-uQ-fS4k

[Cali Syndicate]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Lp5aQq4zI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiD-uQ-fS4k

So out of 7 finals appearances (33 games), you yourself only remembered one finals moment? Proving his point there no?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Best post so far from you bro. It still doesnt prove why kobe is subpar career wise

Wow who knew that the 17th best D in 98 was better than the best D in 2009 and 2002.

Jordan really played in an amazing defensive era of basketball.

:roll:

[TheBluest]

'09 Finals: 32.4 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 7.4 apg, 43 FG%, 53 TS% - Championship & Finals MVP
'10 Finals: 28.6 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 3.9 apg, 41 FG%, 53 TS% - Championship & Finals MVP

Anything else moron?


Sure RETARD


Shaq Obliterating Sixers/Pacers/Nets front court


Let's look at Kobe's chuckfest Finals %'s


2007-2008 vs Boston

Game 1...9-26
Game 2...11-23
Game 3...12-20
Game 4...6-19
Game 5...8-21
Game 6...7-22

COT DAM DISPICABLE

What do most fans remember about this series PAUL PIERCE TOOK A DUMP ALL OVER HIM



2008-2009 vs Orlando

Game 1...16-34
Game 2...10-22
Game 3...11-25
Game 4...11-31
Game 5...10-23

Better but if you look past the Volume he only had 1 game where he truly shot remarkable the others were averages or par for the course.

What do most fans remember about this series COURTNEY LEE'S MISSED LAYUP




2009-2010 vs Boston

Game 1...10-22
Game 2...8-20
Game 3...10-29
Game 4...10-22
Game 5...13-27
Game 6...9-19
Game 7...6-24

Okay so he had about 3 average performances 2 ATRYSMAL performances and 1 rock solid performance

What do most fans remember about this series....RON ARTEST'S CLUTCH 3 AND GASOL'S REBOUND TIPBACKS LATE IN GAME 7

Kobe he got his 2 FMVP and Tards were talking about his rebounding....then....LOL. Tony Parker has 2 FMVP just sayin so not sure how significant winning these are especially when performance and statistics show Kobe wasn't that great. He didn't really have any clutch moments either besides hitting a couple 3s in Boston

[TheBluest]

So out of 7 finals appearances (33 games), you yourself only remembered one finals moment? Proving his point there no?


SO SAD.....KOBE HAS ZERO DEFINABLE MOMENTS IN FINALS HISTORY POST SHAQ....

ZERO

NUNCA

NILL

DONUT

NOTHING

NONE

EMPTY

VACUUM

NO

MU

NEGATIVE

NOWHERE

[Yao Ming's Foot]

SO SAD.....KOBE HAS ZERO DEFINABLE MOMENTS IN FINALS HISTORY POST SHAQ....

ZERO

NUNCA

NILL

DONUT

NOTHING

NONE

EMPTY

VACUUM

NO

MU

NEGATIVE

NOWHERE

except those known by Kobe and Laker fans aka the largest fanbase in the world right?

[97 bulls]

Wow who knew that the 17th best D in 98 was better than the best D in 2009 and 2002.

Jordan really played in an amazing defensive era of basketball.

:roll:
Its no different than when I showed you earlier how the bulls ooffense that led the league in ppg in 96 would've been good for the bottom 5 in 86.

[KingBeasley08]

Jordan = GOAT. Not debatable

[Cali Syndicate]

except those known by Kobe and Laker fans aka the largest fanbase in the world right?

2009 - Fisher's clutch 3's in game 4
2010 - Fisher's 3rd quarter mayhem ending with that crazy and-1 transition layup over 3 Celtics in game 3

Fisher's finals moments > Kobe's finals moments during their 2-peat

[Deuce Bigalow]

Sure RETARD


Shaq Obliterating Sixers/Pacers/Nets front court


Let's look at Kobe's chuckfest Finals %'s


2007-2008 vs Boston

Game 1...9-26
Game 2...11-23
Game 3...12-20
Game 4...6-19
Game 5...8-21
Game 6...7-22

COT DAM DISPICABLE

What do most fans remember about this series PAUL PIERCE TOOK A DUMP ALL OVER HIM



2008-2009 vs Orlando

Game 1...16-34
Game 2...10-22
Game 3...11-25
Game 4...11-31
Game 5...10-23

Better but if you look past the Volume he only had 1 game where he truly shot remarkable the others were averages or par for the course.

What do most fans remember about this series COURTNEY LEE'S MISSED LAYUP




2009-2010 vs Boston

Game 1...10-22
Game 2...8-20
Game 3...10-29
Game 4...10-22
Game 5...13-27
Game 6...9-19
Game 7...6-24

Okay so he had about 3 average performances 2 ATRYSMAL performances and 1 rock solid performance

What do most fans remember about this series....RON ARTEST'S CLUTCH 3 AND GASOL'S REBOUND TIPBACKS LATE IN GAME 7

Kobe he got his 2 FMVP and Tards were talking about his rebounding....then....LOL. Tony Parker has 2 FMVP just sayin so not sure how significant winning these are especially when performance and statistics show Kobe wasn't that great. He didn't really have any clutch moments either besides hitting a couple 3s in Boston
FG% FG% FG% FG% FG% FG%

:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

2009 - Fisher's clutch 3's in game 4
2010 - Fisher's 3rd quarter mayhem ending with that crazy and-1 transition layup over 3 Celtics in game 3

Fisher's finals moments > Kobe's finals moments during their 2-peat
Horry's Finals moments > any other great besides Jordan

Your point?

[Deuce Bigalow]

So out of 7 finals appearances (33 games), you yourself only remembered one finals moment? Proving his point there no?
That's 2. can you find some from other all-time greats?

[Deuce Bigalow]

SO SAD.....KOBE HAS ZERO DEFINABLE MOMENTS IN FINALS HISTORY POST SHAQ....

ZERO

NUNCA

NILL

DONUT

NOTHING

NONE

EMPTY

VACUUM

NO

MU

NEGATIVE

NOWHERE
http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/291443-1/Kobe+Bryant+gives+two+thumbs+up+wearing+t-shirt+with+x-ray+hand+with+five+rings.JPG

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Its no different than when I showed you earlier how the bulls ooffense that led the league in ppg in 96 would've been good for the bottom 5 in 86.

No, I'm completely ignoring the fact that Jordan played a statistically absurd era. The Jazz were below average compared to the other weak defenses of their era. The Nets and Magic were the top ranked defensive teams of their year.

[Cali Syndicate]

Horry's Finals moments > any other great besides Jordan

Your point?

Horry? I was talking about Fisher but okay?

So which of Horry's finals moments are memorable for you?

[Cali Syndicate]

That's 2. can you find some from other all-time greats?

Probably.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Horry? I was talking about Fisher but okay?

So which of Horry's finals moments are memorable for you?
2005 Finals, Game 5

[Cali Syndicate]

No, I'm completely ignoring the fact that Jordan played a statistically absurd era. The Jazz were below average compared to the other weak defenses of their era. The Nets and Magic were the top ranked defensive teams of their year.

The 09 Magic were the top rated defensive team in the league yet Pau practically averaged 20/10 on 60% in those finals, on the DPOY no less.

[Cali Syndicate]

2005 Finals, Game 5

Okay that's one.

Anymore?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The 09 Magic were the top rated defensive team in the league yet Pau practically averaged 20/10 on 60% in those finals, on the DPOY no less.

Well clearly that would negate 82 games worth of data. A big man scored 18.6 points and had 9.2 rebounds in the series.

:roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

The 09 Magic were the top rated defensive team in the league yet Pau practically averaged 20/10 on 60% in those finals, on the DPOY no less.
Kobe averaged 7.4 apg that series, some of those to Gasol for easy baskets, with Kobe getting the defensive attention.

For example like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LsvUUsDdfEE#t=518s

[Nevaeh]

No, I'm completely ignoring the fact that Jordan played a statistically absurd era. The Jazz were below average compared to the other weak defenses of their era. The Nets and Magic were the top ranked defensive teams of their year.

Dude, you make it sound like teams in the 90s were averaging 200 points or something.
:oldlol:

Also, don't forget that your boy played in the tail end of that "absurd era", and didn't do jack sh!t noteworthy except for starting in an Allstar Game as a bench player. Don't you think it should have been easy for him to "leave his mark" back then statistically like Lebron did, as a rookie straight out of highschool?
:confusedshrug:

[Cali Syndicate]

Well clearly that would negate 82 games worth of data. A big man scored 18.6 points and had 9.2 rebounds in the series.

:roll:

On 60% from the field and against the DPOY who was the majority of the reason why the Magic were a top rated defensive team. What a team did during 82 games in the regular season doesn't mean jack during the playoffs.

Playoffs is a different game, mentality. That other guy ranking the Jazz as a better defensive team isn't far fetched at all because they actually stepped up their D in the playoffs. Magic was rated a top defensive unit and remained one throughout the playoffs. Jazz wasn't rated as strong during the regular season, but became a very good defensive team during the playoffs.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Dude, you make it sound like teams in the 90s were averaging 200 points or something.
:oldlol:

Also, don't forget that your boy played in the tail end of that "absurd era", and didn't do jack sh!t noteworthy except for starting in an Allstar Game as a bench player. Don't you think it should have been easy for him to "leave his mark" back then statistically like Lebron did, as a rookie straight out of highschool?
:confusedshrug:

Kobe in the 90's helped keep Eddie Jones' seat warm. :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe in the 90's was coming off the Laker bench. :oldlol:
Jordan in the 00's was shooting below 50 TS% :oldlol:

nice logic huh

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Jordan in the 00's was shooting below 50 TS% :oldlol:

nice logic huh

At least he started.

Outplayed Kobe in his prime too. http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200211080WAS.html

[bwink23]

Jordan in the 00's was shooting below 50 TS% :oldlol:

nice logic huh


A good TS% can be product of getting calls from refs and poor officiating, leading to increase in FT attempts....Jordan was only getting 4-5 FT's a game as a Wizard cuz he lacked the speed to drive, and was largely relegated to the perimeter.

Jordan SHOT BETTER than Kobe from mid-range (16-23ft) in the 2002 AND 2003 seasons on comparable FG attempts.

Prime Jordan would bitch slap this league today....:no:

[Cali Syndicate]

Kobe averaged 7.4 apg that series, some of those to Gasol for easy baskets, with Kobe getting the defensive attention.

For example like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=LsvUUsDdfEE#t=518s

Yeah, that's true. But Gasol stepped up big in that series, the Gasoft criticisms from the year before really drove him to be a more physical player and get himself into better position to score. Kobe may have drew most of the attention but assists only count if the other player finishes the play which is what Pau was doing.

And not all of Kobe's assists to Pau came that easy.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

On 60% from the field and against the DPOY who was the majority of the reason why the Magic were a top rated defensive team. What a team did during 82 games in the regular season doesn't mean jack during the playoffs.

Playoffs is a different game, mentality. That other guy ranking the Jazz as a better defensive team isn't far fetched at all because they actually stepped up their D in the playoffs. Magic was rated a top defensive unit and remained one throughout the playoffs. Jazz wasn't rated as strong during the regular season, but became a very good defensive team during the playoffs.

I don't deny that the Jazz improved in the playoffs (like the 2010 Celtics) but how can they be rated ahead of a team that was the best during the regular season and remained strong in the playoffs. The 2010 Celtics are not given the same jump up.

:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Dude, you make it sound like teams in the 90s were averaging 200 points or something.
:oldlol:

Also, don't forget that your boy played in the tail end of that "absurd era", and didn't do jack sh!t noteworthy except for starting in an Allstar Game as a bench player. Don't you think it should have been easy for him to "leave his mark" back then statistically like Lebron did, as a rookie straight out of highschool?
:confusedshrug:

Nah Kobe was built like a teenager. LeBron like a brickhouse. But at least they were both competing as teenagers unlike this guy...

http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/af/36/legend,portrait,basketball,college,basketball,danc ing,michael,jordan-af363787ca5bd21ae28b82d240737863_h.jpg

[Cali Syndicate]

Horry's Finals moments > any other great besides Jordan

Your point?

Back to this though, so that sole 2005 game 5 makes his finals moments > every other great other than Jordan? Are we being serious here?

[Nevaeh]

Nah Kobe was built like a teenager. Jordan like a brickhouse. But at least they were both competing as teenagers unlike this guy...

http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/af/36/legend,portrait,basketball,college,basketball,danc ing,michael,jordan-af363787ca5bd21ae28b82d240737863_h.jpg

You mean LEBRON was competing. Your boy was just taking notes during the "Absurd Era" off the bench. Damn, 2 potential 30ppg seasons wasted during the "weak 90s" for your man.

:oldlol:

[guy]

:oldlol: at Yao Ming's Foot changing the subject cause he knew he was wrong and then going off again on DRTG, which has been exposed time and time again as a flawed stat.

By the way, I've said it before and I'll say it again, even if DRTG is completely valid, Jordan facing a DRTG team of 104 and Kobe facing a DRTG team of 100 for example means Kobe faced a team that allowed 100 points per 100 possessions and Jordan faced a team that allowed 104 points per 100 possessions. How is that a large difference? Thats 1 vs. 1.04 points per possession. Thats hardly anything. And that minimal of a difference could be attributed to just better offenses. And one thing you also completely ignore is that even if you're right that Kobe faced better defenses, he's also had better scorers around him that took more pressure off of him then Jordan (specifically Shaq who I'm sorry to bring up again cause I know thats a dirty word to Kobe fans).

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You mean LEBRON was competing. Your boy was just taking notes during the "Absurd Era" off the bench. Damn, 2 potential 30ppg seasons wasted during the "weak 90s" for your man.

:oldlol:

Some say that note taking helped him become an all star, all nba, all defensive team and champion at the same age as Jordan finally entered the league.

:confusedshrug:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

:oldlol: at Yao Ming's Foot changing the subject cause he knew he was wrong and then going off again on DRTG, which has been exposed time and time again as a flawed stat.

By the way, I've said it before and I'll say it again, even if DRTG is completely valid, Jordan facing a DRTG team of 104 and Kobe facing a DRTG team of 100 for example means Kobe faced a team that allowed 100 points per 100 possessions and Jordan faced a team that allowed 104 points per 100 possessions. How is that a large difference? Thats 1 vs. 1.04 points per possession. Thats hardly anything. And that minimal of a difference could be attributed to just better offenses. And one thing you also completely ignore is that even if you're right that Kobe faced better defenses, he's also had better scorers around him that took more pressure off of him then Jordan (specifically Shaq who I'm sorry to bring up again cause I know thats a dirty word to Kobe fans).

I can't even use defensive rating to rank defenses within the same year now.

:oldlol:

You guys have to tell me about your superior defensive ranking formulas. What should I use if not one that measures efficiency per possession? PPG allowed?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Shaq Obliterating Sixers/Pacers/Nets front court

Yep. The 3-PEAT years (2000 to 2002), LAL was 25-7 .781% without Kobe. They were 13-13 .500% without Shaq. The Lakers couldn't do shit without O'neal, but when Bryant was out, they won AT A HIGHER RATE than when he played.

And what about 2003? Shaq missed the first 12 games...Kobe and the Lakers managed a 3-9 record to start the season (as 3-TIME defending champs! :oldlol:). They turned it around with Shaq back.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:oldlol: at Yao Ming's Foot changing the subject cause he knew he was wrong and then going off again on DRTG, which has been exposed time and time again as a flawed stat.

By the way, I've said it before and I'll say it again, even if DRTG is completely valid, Jordan facing a DRTG team of 104 and Kobe facing a DRTG team of 100 for example means Kobe faced a team that allowed 100 points per 100 possessions and Jordan faced a team that allowed 104 points per 100 possessions. How is that a large difference? Thats 1 vs. 1.04 points per possession. Thats hardly anything. And that minimal of a difference could be attributed to just better offenses. And one thing you also completely ignore is that even if you're right that Kobe faced better defenses, he's also had better scorers around him that took more pressure off of him then Jordan (specifically Shaq who I'm sorry to bring up again cause I know thats a dirty word to Kobe fans).

Minimal difference, really.

Kobe, in the 90's could not score 40 points in a game...even once. It took him 248 games to lodge his first 40+ pt effort. MJ? It took him 9 games. :oldlol: The ninth game of Jordan's career, he had 45 points and 10 rebounds. That is the chasm between the 2 players. Seriously.

[guy]

I can't even use defensive rating to rank defenses within the same year now.

:oldlol:

You guys have to tell me about your superior defensive ranking formulas. What should I use if not one that measures efficiency per possession? PPG allowed?

Where in my post did I talk about DRTG within the same year?

If you can't see that a stat that says the 2003 Wizards were a better defense then the 1991 Bulls, or that the constantly ridiculed defense even by their own coach as the 2008 Nuggets was the 10th best in the league isn't flawed, then I don't know what else to tell you.

Either way, like I said, even if you're correct on the validity of the stat, if you actually look at it its hardly that big of a difference. And like I said, you completely ignore the better offensive scorers that Kobe played with, so you can argue its a wash.

[Nevaeh]

Yep. The 3-PEAT years (2000 to 2002), LAL was 25-7 .781% without Kobe. They were 13-13 .500% without Shaq. The Lakers couldn't do shit without O'neal, but when Bryant was out, they won AT A HIGHER RATE than when he played.

And what about 2003? Shaq missed the first 12 games...Kobe and the Lakers managed a 3-9 record to start the season (as 3-TIME defending champs! :oldlol:). They turned it around with Shaq back.

Looks to me liked Shaq basically said "f@ck your punk ass Defense Ratings" to any team he went up against, proving his dominance. YMF is making his man look like a punk, insinuating that the defense he faced was too tough to overcome, although Wade, lebron and now Durant have no problems with it.

[Nevaeh]

Yep. The 3-PEAT years (2000 to 2002), LAL was 25-7 .781% without Kobe. They were 13-13 .500% without Shaq. The Lakers couldn't do shit without O'neal, but when Bryant was out, they won AT A HIGHER RATE than when he played.

And what about 2003? Shaq missed the first 12 games...Kobe and the Lakers managed a 3-9 record to start the season (as 3-TIME defending champs! :oldlol:). They turned it around with Shaq back.

Looks to me liked Shaq basically said "f@ck your punk ass Defense Ratings" to any team he went up against, proving his dominance. YMF is making his man look like a punk, insinuating that the defense he faced was too tough to overcome, although Wade, Lebron and now Durant have no problems with it.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Minimal difference, really.

Kobe, in the 90's could not score 40 points in a game...even once. It took him 248 games to lodge his first 40+ pt effort. MJ? It took him 9 games. :oldlol: The ninth game of Jordan's career, he had 45 points and 10 rebounds. That is the chasm between the 2 players. Seriously.

Their ages of their first 40 pt game for those keeping track at home...

Jordan 21.270
Kobe 21.202

:facepalm

[guy]

Looks to me liked Shaq basically said "f@ck your punk ass Defense Ratings" to any team he went up against, proving his dominance. YMF is making his man look like a punk, insinuating that the defense he faced was too tough to overcome, although Wade, lebron and now Durant have no problems with it.

People try to excuse Kobe for having such a horrible shooting series against the 2010 Celtics, but I have yet to hear them explain why Wade was as efficient as Shaq in his prime against them despite having like no one around him.

[juju151111]

Foot still has no answer to oldschools post

Yeah, no bias here at all.

2010 Celts in the postseason held opponents to 91.1 ppg/43.2% FG/52.6% TS

1998 Jazz in the postseason held opponents to 86.9 ppg/41.4% FG/49.5% TS

1997 Jazz in the postseason held opponents to 92.8 ppg/43.8% FG/53.5% TS

2001 Sixers in the postseason held opponents to 92.4 ppg/44.2% FG/52.6% TS

1996 Sonics in the postseason held opponents to 92.7 ppg/43.1% FG/51.7% TS

Yeah...there's a huge difference there, and your rankings are completely justified. Kobe's Finals failures and wretched play are well-documented, and acting like it's all because of the quality of defense is absurd when A) Kobe also has numerous crappy shooting series against lesser defensive teams (much more so than Jordan) and B) Kobe's peers routinely played/shot better against the same opponents (see: Carter averaging 31/6/6/48% FG vs. Philly in the '01 playoffs versus Kobe's 25/8/6/42% FG; Wade averaging 33/6/7/56% FG vs. the '10 Celtcs versus Kobe's 29/8/4/41% FG etc.). Just a huge joke that these Kobe stans try to rationalize every damn fail

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Looks to me liked Shaq basically said "f@ck your punk ass Defense Ratings" to any team he went up against, proving his dominance. YMF is making his man look like a punk, insinuating that the defense he faced was too tough to overcome, although Wade, Lebron and now Durant have no problems with it.

I'm not aware of Durant facing any elite defense on the level that Kobe faced in the Finals. The best D he faced in the playoffs that I'm aware would be the the Lakers when Artest humiliated him.

Also looks like you need to check Lebron's number vs the 08 and 10 Celtics once again. Also take a look at the Finals series against the Spurs.

Wade put up big numbers once against the Celtics but lost the series badly in 5 games. I remember reading about how the Celtics strategized to allow Wade to get his while focusing on covering his teammates instead. Given the ease by which they won the series it obviously worked.

:confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Looks to me liked Shaq basically said "f@ck your punk ass Defense Ratings" to any team he went up against, proving his dominance. YMF is making his man look like a punk, insinuating that the defense he faced was too tough to overcome, although Wade, Lebron and now Durant have no problems with it.

Yep. They've all maintained 48-50%~ shooting relatively easy.

These Kobetards refuse to acknowledge PPG dropped LONG before 2004-2005 when the handchecking rules were scrapped. And it has to do with PACE of play, not defense. League Drtg a year ago was 107.6. That means teams gave up 107.6 pts/100 possessions. That is EXACTLY the same as in 1996. In '97 the defensive rating was 106.7. In '98 it was 105. :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Their ages of their first 40 pt game for those keeping track at home...

Jordan 21.270
Kobe 21.202

:facepalm

Right, but at age 29 (right before his prime ended) Kobe already had 33,500 minutes in the league, regular season and playoff. At the same? age, MJ only had 24,000. Jordan had much better stats up to the same age, and Bryant's stats will go down toward the end of his career - as all players stats do.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The strategy was rather simple: Let Wade have his -- within reason -- and challenge his teammates to beat the Celtics. Wade's mates did not deliver and the only game Miami won was when Wade erupted for 46 points on 66.7 percent shooting, and even then Boston had a chance to win despite shooting itself in the foot with turnovers and missed free throws.


Recycled defense

Boston's success in a five-game triumph over Miami in the opening round of the postseason was due in large part to the way it defended Dwyane Wade and his supporting cast

Wade might finish as the playoffs' top scorer, having averaged 33.2 points per game in the first round, but can the Celtics employ a similar strategy with LeBron James?

Early indications suggest that James and his supporting cast might simply be too good to get away with it.

"LeBron is a different beast," said Kevin Garnett. "Obviously he has a better cast than D-Wade, who is one of the best one-on-one players, as is LeBron too, but he probably defers to his teammates a little bit ... in that he can turn around 35 [points] with eight boards and nine assists. That means he's all-around. And that doesn't even mention the steals or blocks."


http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/nba/columns/story?columnist=forsberg_chris&id=5151456

[97 bulls]

I don't deny that the Jazz improved in the playoffs (like the 2010 Celtics) but how can they be rated ahead of a team that was the best during the regular season and remained strong in the playoffs. The 2010 Celtics are not given the same. jump up.

:confusedshrug:
I'm not comparing the teams statistically I'm comparing the defensive abilities of the personel of both teams. And to me, the jazz had a much better defensive team over the magic and an aging injured celtics team. If I were to grade the teams, this is how id grade them. Mind you the teams in question. And defensively

Magic
Nelsons defense D
Courtney Alexander C
Rashard Lewis F
Turkoglu C
Howard. A
Pietrius B
Reddick F
Gortat B
Alston D

Jazz
Stockton A
Honrnacek D
Russell B
Malone A
Ostertag B
Anderson B
Carr C
Morris C
Eisley D

The celtics were just old and injured and played in a weak division

[Nevaeh]

Yep. They've all maintained 48-50%~ shooting relatively easy.

These Kobetards refuse to acknowledge PPG dropped LONG before 2004-2005 when the handchecking rules were scrapped. And it has to do with PACE of play, not defense. League Drtg a year ago was 107.6. That means teams gave up 107.6 pts/100 possessions. That is EXACTLY the same as in 1996. In '97 the defensive rating was 106.7. In '98 it was 105. :oldlol:

And yet YMF's boy still couldn't get a scoring title out of it, despite all of that "usage" as the man. Still couldn't shoot above 45% against those "weak" defenses either, surprise surprise.
:rolleyes:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Speaking of the 2010 Celtics, Foot, their Drtg (103) was no better than MANY of the teams Jordan faced in the playoffs/finals. 1996 Sonics: 102.1; '92 Blazers: 104.2; 97 Jazz: 104.0.

So the '96 Sonics were better, and the '97 Jazz and '92 Blazers were nearly identical in Drtg to the 2010 celts.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm not comparing the teams statistically I'm comparing the defensive abilities of the personel of both teams. And to me, the jazz had a much better defensive team over the magic and an aging injured celtics team. If I were to grade the teams, this is how id grade them. Mind you the teams in question. And defensively

Magic
Nelsons defense D
Courtney Alexander C
Rashard Lewis F
Turkoglu C
Howard. A
Pietrius B
Reddick F
Gortat B
Alston D

Jazz
Stockton A
Honrnacek D
Russell B
Malone A
Ostertag B
Anderson B
Carr C
Morris C
Eisley D

The celtics were just old and injured and played in a weak division

:wtf:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Speaking of the 2010 Celtics, their Drtg (103) was no better than MANY of the teams Jordan faced in the playoffs/finals. 1996 Sonics: 102.1; '92 Blazers: 104.2; 97 Jazz: 104.0. So the '96 Sonics were better, and the '97 Jazz and
'92 Blazers were nearly identical in Drtg to the 2010 celts.

You said "many" then listed one team that actually qualifies which I already recognized and Jordan shot 41.5% against.

:applause:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You said "many" then listed one team that actually qualifies

:applause:

Those teams I mentioned all had better perimeter defense.

Portland in '92 gave up one more point (that's right...just ONE measly point) than the 2010 Celts. Look what Jordan did to them. :oldlol:

[necya]

i've many questions for you kid, but the main thing i can't get is why did you decide to connect yourself on a basketball forum whereas you don't understand what happens on the court ?

[Deuce Bigalow]

At least he started.

Outplayed Kobe in his prime too. http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200211080WAS.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200303280LAL.html

[Deuce Bigalow]

Back to this though, so that sole 2005 game 5 makes his finals moments > every other great other than Jordan? Are we being serious here?
Find me an all-time great (other than MJ) who had a better Finals "moment" than that

[eliteballer]

Kobe was playing one one knee in the 2010 Finals.

Its not even funny how much tougher Kobe's playoff comp has been.

Jordan usually didnt even have to start trying until the conference finals

[TheBluest]

FG% FG% FG% FG% FG% FG%

:oldlol:


43% PUTRID :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

43% PUTRID :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
30-7-5 average in those 2 finals produced 2 Championships and 2 Finals MVPs

u mad?

[guy]

Kobe was playing one one knee in the 2010 Finals.

Its not even funny how much tougher Kobe's playoff comp has been.

Jordan usually didnt even have to start trying until the conference finals

:oldlol: Jordan's 2nd round opponents are comparable to Kobe's finals opponents in his 5 championship runs.

[tpols]

:oldlol: Jordan's 2nd round opponents are comparable to Kobe's finals opponents in his 5 championship runs.
Whats funny is Kobe's second round and third round opponents were tougher than his Finals ones too.. so it doesnt matter. Kinda funny how he did better against them than in the finals.:lol

[TheBluest]

30-7-5 average in those 2 finals produced 2 Championships and 2 Finals MVPs

u mad?


Not at all it's just that he has an incredible low fg% of those considered All-Time greats which is more along the lines of why this thread was created.

Threads can be made for FMVP and threads can be made for Number of chips but Kobe sucked really bad in his Finals runs post Shaq and pretty much FORGOTTEN MEMORY performances.....

ACTUAL FACTUALS

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not at all it's just that he has an incredible low fg% of those considered All-Time greats which is more along the lines of why this thread was created.

Threads can be made for FMVP and threads can be made for Number of chips but Kobe sucked really bad in his Finals runs post Shaq and pretty much FORGOTTEN MEMORY performances.....

ACTUAL FACTUALS
30.2 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 5.3 apg, 41.2 FG%, 52.7 TS%
2 Championships
2 Finals MVPs

Yep, he really sucked.

[guy]

Whats funny is Kobe's second round and third round opponents were tougher than his Finals ones too.. so it doesnt matter. Kinda funny how he did better against them than in the finals.:lol

So him playing below standards against teams he should've dominated is a good thing? Okay.

[tpols]

So him playing below standards against teams he should've dominated is a good thing? Okay.
Nah, its not. I was just making an observation.

[Derivative]

41.2%

[TheBigVeto]

Yes he does.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bill Russell - NBA Finals

57: 35.6%
58: 34.7%
59: 31.6%
60: 47.1%
61: 42.9%
62: 54.3%
63: 46.7%
64: 38.6%
65: 70.2%
66: 53.8%
68: 43.0%
69: 39.7%

[Droid101]

Bill Russell - NBA Finals

57: 35.6%
58: 34.7%
59: 31.6%
60: 47.1%
61: 42.9%
62: 54.3%
63: 46.7%
64: 38.6%
65: 70.2%
66: 53.8%
68: 43.0%
69: 39.7%
Chucker.

[Derivative]

Bill Russell - NBA Finals

57: 35.6%
58: 34.7%
59: 31.6%
60: 47.1%
61: 42.9%
62: 54.3%
63: 46.7%
64: 38.6%
65: 70.2%
66: 53.8%
68: 43.0%
69: 39.7%

no one said russell was a good player by today's standards

[Kiddlovesnets]

Well in 2002 the Nets were triple-teaming Shaq and left Kobe open for at least half of the shots he was taking, thats why he made 51% of them.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Well in 2002 the Nets were triple-teaming Shaq and left Kobe open for at least half of the shots he was taking, thats why he made 51% of them.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Z2tCu_mKUx8

Shaq had single coverage and Kobe was doubled