John Wall or Kyrie Irving?

[TheNaturalWR]

If you're building a franchise around one of the two who are you taking?

[DRose1899]

5$ beer or vodka?

[FireDavidKahn]

Easily Irving. Wall is over rated because of his athletic ability.

[June1026]

Kyrie, self explanatory.

[AirTupac]

The one with the jumpshot.

[TheNaturalWR]

Easily Irving. Wall is over rated because of his athletic ability.

How is Wall overrated when he hasn't even been talked about this whole season? He's a better playmaker and has the athletic ability to defend anybody. If he had decent IQ-ed teammates he'd get more recognition. The majority of NBA fans probably don't even know that he averaged 16 and 8 last season which is remarkable for a rookie point guard.

[Clutch]

Kyrie Irving. Better overall player and smarter too

[k0kakw0rld]

Kyrie Irving

[FireDavidKahn]

How is Wall overrated when he hasn't even been talked about this whole season? He's a better playmaker and has the athletic ability to defend anybody. If he had decent IQ-ed teammates he'd get more recognition. The majority of NBA fans probably don't even know that he averaged 16 and 8 last season which is remarkable for a rookie point guard.
Because people label him a top 10 point guard when he isn't close to being one right now. Also, what on earth do you mean "he is a better playmaker", then who?

[TheNaturalWR]

Because people label him a top 10 point guard when he isn't close to being one right now. Also, what on earth do you mean "he is a better playmaker", then who?

Wall is a better playmaker than Irving, period. Irving is averaging 5 assists which no one seems to mention which is pretty mediocre by the way. Wall averaged 8 last year while playing with a group of dumb****s. Wall is by far the better passer and already one of the premier finishers in the league. Irving is a better shooter and that's it.

[CardiacKemba]

Kyrie. But the potential of both is closer than people are giving credit for on here.

[Sarcastic]

John Wall has more upside potential, so him.

[Whoah10115]

Irving is a better playmaker, but John Wall is definitely a better passer. Wall is gonna be a great defender, tho I think Irving will be at least solid there.



Both will be great players, but I think Irving is better. I also like his swagger. Plus, he's representing Elizabeth lol.

[hawksdogsbraves]

Wall definitely has a higher ceiling, and he's a better defender. Irving is a smarter kid and is probably a better natural scorer.

I'd take Wall though, he's right up there with Rose and Westbrook in terms of potential. Irving is great but he'll never be an MVP candidate I don't think.

[Unstop]

i take irving.

[TheNaturalWR]

Irving is a better playmaker, but John Wall is definitely a better passer. Wall is gonna be a great defender, tho I think Irving will be at least solid there.



Both will be great players, but I think Irving is better. I also like his swagger. Plus, he's representing Elizabeth lol.

How is Irving the better playmaker if Wall is by far the better passer and just a tier below as a scorer. What Wall lacks in scoring(shooting) can be worked on while where as Irving can definitely improve on his inside game he'll never have the athleticism that allows you to flourish in the painted area. If Wall wants to be the best point guard in the league he needs to improve his shot. People can talk about his athleticism all he wants but dude has amazing passing ability.

[FireDavidKahn]

How is Irving the better playmaker if Wall is by far the better passer and just a tier below as a scorer. What Wall lacks in scoring(shooting) can be worked on while where as Irving can definitely improve on his inside game he'll never have the athleticism that allows you to flourish in the painted area. If Wall wants to be the best point guard in the league he needs to improve his shot. People can talk about his athleticism all he wants but dude has amazing passing ability.
Shooting is actually one of the hardest things to improve. There aren't a lot of people in NBA history that have gone from horrible shooters to even good shooters.

[TheNaturalWR]

Shooting is actually one of the hardest things to improve. There aren't a lot of people in NBA history that have gone from horrible shooters to even good shooters.

You could go from horrible to decent or respectable. i.e Wade
And Wade just so happens to be the player Wall admires so it wouldn't be shocking if his shooting does improve within the next 2 years.

[Rowe]

John Wall.

I've said before the draft that Kyrie Irving reminds me a lot of prime Mike Bibby. Their games are very similar, but that ceiling on their upside is visible due to their clear physical gifts. Hes a very good shooter, is a solid passer, and will be a very good #2 option in the NBA although he may be Cleveland's #1 option for the forseeable future. Because of his NBA ready shooting ability hes able to elevate his team immediately with his scoring, but there are rare instances where a player like him becomes dominant.

John Wall on the other hand is extremely talented. He has the ability to be a #1 option in this league, and his ability to get from Point A to Point B on the court can only be rivaled by Rose, Westbrook, & Rondo. Everything he needs to work to be great can be fixed with coaching. Just like Derrick Rose, John Wall has such physical ability that with an improved outside shot he stands to become a dominant force. That goes along with the on court education that both players are receiving every season with learning the game.

[TheNaturalWR]

John Wall.

I've said before the draft that Kyrie Irving reminds me a lot of prime Mike Bibby. Their games are very similar, but that ceiling on their upside is visible due to their clear physical gifts. Hes a very good shooter, is a solid passer, and will be a very good #2 option in the NBA although he may be Cleveland's #1 option for the forseeable future. Because of his NBA ready shooting ability hes able to elevate his team immediately with his scoring, but there are rare instances where a player like him becomes dominant.

John Wall on the other hand is extremely talented. He has the ability to be a #1 option in this league, and his ability to get from Point A to Point B on the court can only be rivaled by Rose, Westbrook, & Rondo. Everything he needs to work to be great can be fixed with coaching. Just like Derrick Rose, John Wall has such physical ability that with an improved outside shot he stands to become a dominant force. That goes along with the on court education that both players are receiving every season with learning the game.

Wall is gonna have a rough time reaching his max potential with the retarded ****** he has for teammates.

[PleezeBelieve]

John Wall.

I've said before the draft that Kyrie Irving reminds me a lot of prime Mike Bibby. Their games are very similar, but that ceiling on their upside is visible due to their clear physical gifts. Hes a very good shooter, is a solid passer, and will be a very good #2 option in the NBA although he may be Cleveland's #1 option for the forseeable future. Because of his NBA ready shooting ability hes able to elevate his team immediately with his scoring, but there are rare instances where a player like him becomes dominant.

John Wall on the other hand is extremely talented. He has the ability to be a #1 option in this league, and his ability to get from Point A to Point B on the court can only be rivaled by Rose, Westbrook, & Rondo. Everything he needs to work to be great can be fixed with coaching. Just like Derrick Rose, John Wall has such physical ability that with an improved outside shot he stands to become a dominant force. That goes along with the on court eduvcation that both players are receiving every season with learning the game.
Kyrie a prime Bibby?

Wall a #1 option?

:oldlol:

And oh.yea, this thread need to get off my d*ck.

[TheNaturalWR]

John Wall.

I've said before the draft that Kyrie Irving reminds me a lot of prime Mike Bibby. Their games are very similar, but that ceiling on their upside is visible due to their clear physical gifts. Hes a very good shooter, is a solid passer, and will be a very good #2 option in the NBA although he may be Cleveland's #1 option for the forseeable future. Because of his NBA ready shooting ability hes able to elevate his team immediately with his scoring, but there are rare instances where a player like him becomes dominant.

John Wall on the other hand is extremely talented. He has the ability to be a #1 option in this league, and his ability to get from Point A to Point B on the court can only be rivaled by Rose, Westbrook, & Rondo. Everything he needs to work to be great can be fixed with coaching. Just like Derrick Rose, John Wall has such physical ability that with an improved outside shot he stands to become a dominant force. That goes along with the on court education that both players are receiving every season with learning the game.

I'm taking Wall everytime as well but Irving a prime Mike Bibby? He's gonna be a poor man's CP3. They score in basically the exact same way but Irving will never come close to CP3's passing ability or Wall's.

[Rowe]

Shooting is actually one of the hardest things to improve. There aren't a lot of people in NBA history that have gone from horrible shooters to even good shooters.

John Wall isn't a horrible shooter by any means.

He has a very good release on his jumpshot, its just not perfect because he doesn't consistently shoot at his apex.

The issue with him is that hes playing with very low IQ basketball players on the floor who have serious trouble getting to certain spots on the floor. Their offensive execution is absolutely terrible and that hurts Wall because hes unable to successfully run the Pick & Roll with Blatche or McGee. A key to success with the pick & roll is being able to get space to pull up for the jumper. No player will be successful with only being able to take contested jumpers off of picks or passing to big men who dont know how to finish when getting the ball.

[Bob Cousy]

i take Irving 10/10 but Wall is not overrated, get that crap out of your heads.

[Rowe]

Wall is gonna have a rough time reaching his max potential with the retarded ****** he has for teammates.

He just turned 21. Honestly I dont think many people will hold the next 3 years or so against him as the Wizards try to figure out their future.

Worst case scenario is that Ted Leonis doesn't relieve Grunfeld from his duties, and Wall is forced to deal with a new cast of low IQ players.

[Sarcastic]

Shooting is actually one of the hardest things to improve. There aren't a lot of people in NBA history that have gone from horrible shooters to even good shooters.

Shooting is about a million times easier to improve than athleticism though. No matter what Irving does, he won't ever be as fast and quick as Wall or Rose.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Both of them played excellent tonight...and showed their differences. So it depends on what you need.

[Rowe]

I'm taking Wall everytime as well but Irving a prime Mike Bibby? He's gonna be a poor man's CP3. They score in basically the exact same way but Irving will never come close to CP3's passing ability or Wall's.
Thats fair enough.

I just dont like using the "poor mans" argument.

Mike Bibby in Sacramento was a very good, yet underrated player because he was a good, but not amazing athlete who didn't make the "Wow!". I've seen a few of Irving's games and hes definetly NBA ready and he reminds me a lot of Bibby. Very smooth with their game and can get you 20-25 points.

[noob cake]

Shooting is about a million times easier to improve than athleticism though. No matter what Irving does, he won't ever be as fast and quick as Wall or Rose.

I'm sure the all time GOAT PG's are all athletic freaks

[Sarcastic]

I'm sure the all time GOAT PG's are all athletic freaks

What is that supposed to mean? Would Magic be worse if he had more athleticism? Isiah was pretty damn athletic. One of the fastest guys in the league. And Oscar was a physical freak in his time.

[TheNaturalWR]

I'm sure the all time GOAT PG's are all athletic freaks

Yeah and I'm pretty sure the greatest PG of all time Magic was a great shooter. :rolleyes: Wall is a PHENOMENAL passer combined with his freakish athleticism. If his teammates actually had brains he'd be a consistent year in year out 10 assist per game guy.

[Rowe]

Kyrie a prime Bibby?

Wall a #1 option?

:oldlol:

And oh.yea, this thread need to get off my d*ck.

Yes, a rookie Kyrie Irving reminds me of a prime Bibby when he wasn't playing through injuries. Thats a future Top 10 PG and a Franchise cornerstone when Cleveland gets going again.

Thats not anything disrespectful at all.

John Wall as a #1 option? Yes. As he improves his jumpshot and gets teammates who dont belong in the D-League.

[chocolatethunder]

Irving is a better playmaker, but John Wall is definitely a better passer. Wall is gonna be a great defender, tho I think Irving will be at least solid there.



Both will be great players, but I think Irving is better. I also like his swagger. Plus, he's representing Elizabeth lol.
Swagger is so important. I cannot wait til that word dies. Give it a year.

[Rowe]

I'm sure the all time GOAT PG's are all athletic freaks

They were.

John Stockton might've been the best of them all when you consider his durability.

[entropy35]

Irving right now. Wall for the future, easily.

Let's be honest, the only thing Irving does better than Wall is shoot and maybe TO's too.

[Meticode]

It's amazing what 30 NBA games does for your stock. 3+ months ago 90%+ would've said Wall without hesitation.

[alwaysunny]

They were.

John Stockton might've been the best of them all when you consider his durability.

Durability has nothing to do with athleticism though

[Bob Cousy]

Irving right now. Wall for the future, easily.

Let's be honest, the only thing Irving does better than Wall is shoot and maybe TO's too.
Irvings composure and demeanor for his age is VERY rare. The guy plays and acts like he's been in the league 10 years.

he has the make up to be a Chris Paul type.


Wall sometimes fits in right at home with the rest of low IQ Wizard squad, if you know what I mean.... but his talent is undeniable, so he will be great anyways.

[jbryan1984]

Yes, I am a Cavs fan but the records speak for themselves. Kyrie made the second worst team in the league a playoff contender. Wall made his team worse.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Anyone that picked Wall is a retard.

[Meticode]

Anyone that picked Wall is a retard.
You hurt my feelings.

[StateOfMind12]

If we are talking right now, I think it is Irving pretty easily.

If we are talking for the future, I'm not sure. Wall reminds me of Jason Kidd while Irving reminds me of Chris Paul. I would probably go with Irving. Honestly, Irving's only weakness is defense while Wall has a plethora of weaknesses in his game.

[TheNaturalWR]

Yes, I am a Cavs fan but the records speak for themselves. Kyrie made the second worst team in the league a playoff contender. Wall made his team worse.

Irving has a better overall roster and still only averages 5 assists. :facepalm Wall plays with the most retarded front line in basketball and IMO one of the biggest ballhogs in the NBA with Nick Young and he's still putting up respectable numbers. Wall is in a HORRIBLE situation while Irving has a good supporting cast.

[TheNaturalWR]

If we are talking right now, I think it is Irving pretty easily.

If we are talking for the future, I'm not sure. Wall reminds me of Jason Kidd while Irving reminds me of Chris Paul. I would probably go with Irving. Honestly, Irving's only weakness is defense while Wall has a plethora of weaknesses in his game.

Please explain because there's only one I could think of.

[Sarcastic]

Anyone that picked Wall is a retard.

Did your dad tell you this?

[I.R.Beast]

Kyrie Irving. Better overall player and smarter too
Irving trumps Wall in jump shooting and nothing else... But Irving shooting is a big plus so i'd take irving. wall has been great since flip saunders got fired though.

[The Macho Man]

Irving has a better overall roster and still only averages 5 assists. :facepalm Wall plays with the most retarded front line in basketball and IMO one of the biggest ballhogs in the NBA with Nick Young and he's still putting up respectable numbers. Wall is in a HORRIBLE situation while Irving has a good supporting cast.

Baltche doesn't play anymore so Mcgee is the only really dumb player in the frontcourt. Booker, Lewis, Singleton and Vesely aren't that dumb.

I've only seen the Cavs play a few times so I'm not sure who I'd take. Kyrie has looked impressive though. I'm sure everyone here watches the Wizards and Cavs regularly right?

[LBJMVP]

Irving has a better overall roster and still only averages 5 assists. :facepalm Wall plays with the most retarded front line in basketball and IMO one of the biggest ballhogs in the NBA with Nick Young and he's still putting up respectable numbers. Wall is in a HORRIBLE situation while Irving has a good supporting cast.


really? go look at the cavs roster right now, and go look at the injury problems the have all season. our second best player is a washed up antawn jamison, and our second best guy is a player you have probably never heard of in alonzo gee. our center right now is semih erden and guess who his backup is... ryan hollins :facepalm , shooting guard is daniel gibson who is a straight up spot up three point shooter only. then we have omri casspi as the SF...

kyrie actually has a pretty bad supporting cast in comparison to the rest of the NBA

[TheNaturalWR]

Baltche doesn't play anymore so Mcgee is the only really dumb player in the frontcourt. Booker, Lewis, Singleton and Vesely aren't that dumb.

I've only seen the Cavs play a few times so I'm not sure who I'd take. Kyrie has looked impressive though. I'm sure everyone here watches the Wizards and Cavs regularly right?

I like Booker but Lewis is washed up. 24% from 3 for a specialist? That's pathetic. The Cavs have a good bunch of role players that just need one above-average player to compete. i.e LeBron. Still waiting for someone to have an argument of Irving over Wall besides shooting. :rolleyes:

[Bob Cousy]

really? go look at the cavs roster right now, and go look at the injury problems the have all season. our second best player is a washed up antawn jamison, and our second best guy is a player you have probably never heard of in alonzo gee. our center right now is semih erden and guess who his backup is... ryan hollins :facepalm , shooting guard is daniel gibson who is a straight up spot up three point shooter only. then we have omri casspi as the SF...

kyrie actually has a pretty bad supporting cast in comparison to the rest of the NBAthe amount of times I've heard Cav fans say this over the years ... wow :applause:

[LBJMVP]

I like Booker but Lewis is washed up. 24% from 3 for a specialist? That's pathetic. The Cavs have a good bunch of role players that just need one above-average player to compete. i.e LeBron. Still waiting for someone to have an argument of Irving over Wall besides shooting. :rolleyes:

i actually believe the only arguement wall has over irving is his athleticism.


if you base passing skills off of kyrie's assist averaging then you obviously dont watch cleveland games.

kyrie get to the basket with ease. his ball handing is phenomenal, and his passing is great. his fourth quarter play during close games is incomparable for any young player.

[TheNaturalWR]

really? go look at the cavs roster right now, and go look at the injury problems the have all season. our second best player is a washed up antawn jamison, and our second best guy is a player you have probably never heard of in alonzo gee. our center right now is semih erden and guess who his backup is... ryan hollins :facepalm , shooting guard is daniel gibson who is a straight up spot up three point shooter only. then we have omri casspi as the SF...

kyrie actually has a pretty bad supporting cast in comparison to the rest of the NBA

Your washed up Antawn Jamison is better than any of John Wall's teammates. Irving is surround with shooters which is a point guard's DREAM. Wall plays with a backcourt teammate that dribbles the ball just as much as he does. Without Wall setting up McGee he might be averaging 5 points.

[Whoah10115]

How is Irving the better playmaker if Wall is by far the better passer and just a tier below as a scorer. What Wall lacks in scoring(shooting) can be worked on while where as Irving can definitely improve on his inside game he'll never have the athleticism that allows you to flourish in the painted area. If Wall wants to be the best point guard in the league he needs to improve his shot. People can talk about his athleticism all he wants but dude has amazing passing ability.



I know he does, which is why I said he's a better passer.



Wall is a much better passer. The full extent of playmaking (and in that I'm including controlling the game), Irving is a better playmaker. He's gonna be truly special running the pick n' roll.

[LBJMVP]

the amount of times I've heard Cav fans say this over the years ... wow :applause:


really so you consider

daniel gibson
omri casspi
antawn jamison
semih erden

a great lineup?


how bout the bench?

alonzo gee
ryan hollins
ramon session
triston thompson
christian enyenga
luke harangody
samardo samuels

this is a completely different lineup from the lebron days...

[Bob Cousy]

really so you consider

daniel gibson
omri casspi
antawn jamison
semih erden

a great lineup?


how bout the bench?

alonzo gee
ryan hollins
ramon session
triston thompson
christian enyenga
luke harangody
samardo samuels

this is a completely different lineup from the lebron days...I didn't say I disagreed with you.:no:

[Whoah10115]

Swagger is so important. I cannot wait til that word dies. Give it a year.



I like his swagger. I like him. I didn't say that made him better, I said that makes him a preference, as in I like him more.




And more importantly, the word "swagger" will never die. The word you're thinking of is "swag". In a year, there's a good chance that the word "swagger" will remain in the lexicon.

[LBJMVP]

I didn't say I disagreed with you.:no:

sorry couldnt tell if the applause was sarcastic :cheers:

[Bob Cousy]

sorry couldnt tell if the applause was sarcastic :cheers:in the past it would have been sarcastic though.:pimp:

[ralph_i_el]

once Wall gets his release consistent he'll start making a lot more shots.

[Rowe]

Durability has nothing to do with athleticism though

The ability of your body to hold up for so long is a legit physical gift.

[Kingwillball]

Relax Kiddies, Irving is the better player than Wall.. Smarter, more composed better leader shooter and can run an offense better.. Wall is a Stud athlete but that doesnt make him a better basketball player than Irving.

[RedBlackAttack]

John Wall.

I've said before the draft that Kyrie Irving reminds me a lot of prime Mike Bibby. Their games are very similar, but that ceiling on their upside is visible due to their clear physical gifts. Hes a very good shooter, is a solid passer, and will be a very good #2 option in the NBA although he may be Cleveland's #1 option for the forseeable future. Because of his NBA ready shooting ability hes able to elevate his team immediately with his scoring, but there are rare instances where a player like him becomes dominant.

John Wall on the other hand is extremely talented. He has the ability to be a #1 option in this league, and his ability to get from Point A to Point B on the court can only be rivaled by Rose, Westbrook, & Rondo. Everything he needs to work to be great can be fixed with coaching. Just like Derrick Rose, John Wall has such physical ability that with an improved outside shot he stands to become a dominant force. That goes along with the on court education that both players are receiving every season with learning the game.
The best aspect of Kyrie's game isn't even his shooting, although it is clearer great. No, the best part of Kyrie's game is his ball-handling skills and ability to change direction.

He already has one of the best handles in the league at 19.

Mike Bibby? Really? He was actually a very nice player in his prime, but their games are NOTHING alike.

Also, there is more than just straight-line speed, hops and having a large frame when it comes to judging athleticism. It is also about dexterity, balance, reflexes and quickness in change of direction... All of which Kyrie has shown in spades.

I have nothing against John Wall, but I swear to god people aren't even watching Irving with some of these comments.

[bdreason]

I think Irving is the better player right now... but it hards to deny Wall's natural physical abilities. This is really a toss up for me, wiith Irving being the safe pick, and Wall having more upside.

[nathanjizzle]

john wall or kyrie irving :roll:

The shit you hear on ish:cheers:


kyrie by the way

[redhonda76]

Clearly Irving is better than Wall. All Wall has is just potential. There are so many players that people placed potential on them and never achieved it. Looking at Irving and Wall, it's like night and day. Total game opposite of each other.

[alenleomessi]

I think Irving is the better player right now... but it hards to deny Wall's natural physical abilities. This is really a toss up for me, wiith Irving being the safe pick, and Wall having more upside.
i agree

[DukeDelonte13]

:oldlol: at people saying Kyrie only has shooting over Wall....

It's kyrie by a mile.

[DMVLeGenD]

I'm a huge Wall fan, but tbh, I'd take Irving. Irving is more skilled at every aspect of the game. He is a better shooter, has a tighter handle, more poised, etc. Wall is more athletic, but that's pretty much all he has over Irving (that and size). But Irving is no slouch athletically. He has good quickness, and is acrobatic in the air as a finisher.

Wall has the higher ceiling, but will he reach that ceiling?

[PTB Fan]

I'm a fan of both players, but John Wall is better. He's a better playmaker, is a more complete player, more versatile, impacts the game more and is bigger physical freak who's more dominant as well.

Kyrie changes directions better, has better handle, shots better, controls the flow of the game just as good and is more skilled. However, when you take a look at with what John plays.. low IQ players, who go like to isolate, do way too many dribbles, chuck questionable shots etc opposed to Kyrie who plays with great shooters, smart team mates that let him create.. that cannot be ignored.

Both will future superstars, but Wall is clearly better now.

[hkfosho]

I'ma go with Wall. He just has too much potential to not pick him between the two.

[rknine15]

John Wall is Overall the better player no question.

Wall had a very slow start to the season, just like Dirk and many other players. He's turned it ON for the last 20+ games. Watch the games PEOPLE.

John Wall's last 10 games

20ppg (50fg%) 8.8apg 4.5rpg 1.4spg 1bpg

Irving's last 10 games

19.1ppg (44fg%) 5.8apg 3.6rpg 0.9 spg 0.7bpg

[I.R.Beast]

I'm a fan of both players, but John Wall is better. He's a better playmaker, is a more complete player, more versatile, impacts the game more and is bigger physical freak who's more dominant as well.

Kyrie changes directions better, has better handle, shots better, controls the flow of the game just as good and is more skilled. However, when you take a look at with what John plays.. low IQ players, who go like to isolate, do way too many dribbles, chuck questionable shots etc opposed to Kyrie who plays with great shooters, smart team mates that let him create.. that cannot be ignored.

Both will future superstars, but Wall is clearly better now.

have to disagree there. everything else is spot on. Kyrie definately does play with better IQ guys that know their role..... Wall plays with guys like blatche Jordan crawford nick young....All chuckers....Nick young is the only who isn't that bad in regards to forcing things.

Kyrie's shooting ability gives him the edge for right now though.

[rknine15]

have to disagree there. everything else is spot on. Kyrie definately does play with better IQ guys that know their role..... Wall plays with guys like blatche Jordan crawford nick young....All chuckers....Nick young is the only who isn't that bad in regards to forcing things.

Kyrie's shooting ability gives him the edge for right now though.
:roll: :roll:

[swi7ch]

Neither.

Jeremly Lin or Rubio

[PTB Fan]

have to disagree there. everything else is spot on. Kyrie definately does play with better IQ guys that know their role..... Wall plays with guys like blatche Jordan crawford nick young....All chuckers....Nick young is the only who isn't that bad in regards to forcing things.

Kyrie's shooting ability gives him the edge for right now though.

Actually all are awful on the Wizards. Young, Crawford, Blatche.. these guys are big time shot jackers who over dribble the ball like crazy and like to consistently go in ISO mode. :facepalm

John Wall changes direction well (that speed is crazy), but not as good as Irving does. His shooting is two classes below Kyrie's. Only Vesely and Booker are good in Washington, all others are just awful.

[tontoz]

Yes, I am a Cavs fan but the records speak for themselves. Kyrie made the second worst team in the league a playoff contender. Wall made his team worse.


That is just retarded. The Wizards gutted their team. Jamison, Butler, Haywood, Stevenson, Foye are all starting on other teams. Of course they will get worse getting rid of their best players. That isn't even mentioning the Arenas washout.

:facepalm

[tontoz]

Clearly Irving is better than Wall. All Wall has is just potential. There are so many players that people placed potential on them and never achieved it. Looking at Irving and Wall, it's like night and day. Total game opposite of each other.


This month Wall is averaging 18/8.5 with 5 rebounds while shooting 48% from the field. He is getting to the line 6.6 times per game and shooting 81% from the line.

Yeah Wall is just potential. :facepalm

[LBJMVP]

John Wall is Overall the better player no question.

Wall had a very slow start to the season, just like Dirk and many other players. He's turned it ON for the last 20+ games. Watch the games PEOPLE.

John Wall's last 10 games

20ppg (50fg%) 8.8apg 4.5rpg 1.4spg 1bpg

Irving's last 10 games

19.1ppg (44fg%) 5.8apg 3.6rpg 0.9 spg 0.7bpg


to say wall is better no question is just stupid. there is a full out arguement going on right now.

and for irving to have those stats in a compact season while only playing in 11 games since high school is insane.

by the way, can you put up their three point percentages? its a good attribute for you point guard to be able to shoot threes :oldlol:

[tontoz]

Interesting link where you can find out a ton of info.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/

Over the last 15 games Wall is shooting 41.7% from 10 feet and out. Not great but not bad.

He was missing everything to start the season.

[The_Yearning]

Kyrie Irving and it isn't even close.

[tontoz]

to say wall is better no question is just stupid. there is a full out arguement going on right now.

and for irving to have those stats in a compact season while only playing in 11 games since high school is insane.

by the way, can you put up their three point percentages? its a good attribute for you point guard to be able to shoot threes :oldlol:


That's true. It is also a good attribute to get to the foul line. Care to guess who leads the league among pgs in FTA and FTM?

[LBJMVP]

That's true. It is also a good attribute to get to the foul line. Care to guess who leads the league among pgs in FTA and FTM?


wall plays 6 more minutes per game and shoots two more free throws per game then irving which means he gets fouled 1 extra time.

who has the higher percentage though?

[tontoz]

wall plays 6 more minutes per game and shoots two more free throws per game then irving which means he gets fouled 1 extra time.

who has the higher percentage though?


How do you know he gets fouled only 1 extra time per game? Not all fouls result in foul shots.

Irving shoots 5.7% better. I am sure that is big in your book. But Wall gets to the line 60% more than Irving.

if you want to look at it that way i can say Irving averages only 1 made 3 more than Wall.

[Bob Cousy]

A lot of posters are showing their age, with every post they get younger and younger.

sheesh, learn to evaluate talent ffs.

[LBJMVP]

How do you know he gets fouled only 1 extra time per game? Not all fouls result in foul shots.

Irving shoots 5.7% better. I am sure that is big in your book. But Wall gets to the line 60% more than Irving.

if you want to look at it that way i can say Irving averages only 1 made 3 more than Wall.


true the difference really does make that much difference. that only five more makes out of 100.

but what if irving average 37 minutes a game? at the beggining of the season kyrie was gettin like 26 minutes per game and still pouring in 17 a game and with his increase in minutes his assist numbers have been higher.

[tontoz]

true the difference really does make that much difference. that only five more makes out of 100.

but what if irving average 37 minutes a game? at the beggining of the season kyrie was gettin like 26 minutes per game and still pouring in 17 a game and with his increase in minutes his assist numbers have been higher.



Using per minute numbers Irving would theoretically average 6 assists, 2.3 less than Wall's rookie year.

This year the Wizards are filled with guys who can't shoot and Wall is still averaging 7.6 assists per game.

I haven't watched the Cavs so i don't know much about Irvings game other than what i see in the stats. I do know that some people are badly underrating Wall due to the garbage he is playing with.

[lpublic_enemyl]

kyrie has a better feel for the game i'd go with him. But seriously, ppl are sleeping on wall.

[TheNaturalWR]

:roll: :roll:

Yup. He might be the only person in the league that shoots dumber shots than Kobe. :facepalm

[redhonda76]

This month Wall is averaging 18/8.5 with 5 rebounds while shooting 48% from the field. He is getting to the line 6.6 times per game and shooting 81% from the line.

Yeah Wall is just potential. :facepalm

Its about time Wall has been doing well this month. He has been nothing but disappointment so far. I'd still rather have Irving or Rubio over Wall.

[tontoz]

Its about time Wall has been doing well this month. He has been nothing but disappointment so far. I'd still rather have Irving or Rubio over Wall.


As a rookie Wall averaged 16.4 ppg rookie and was 7th in the league in assists per game. He also averaged 4.6 rebounds and 1.8 steals. What a disappointment.

:facepalm

[PleezeBelieve]

As a rookie Wall averaged 16.4 ppg rookie and was 7th in the league in assists per game. He also averaged 4.6 rebounds and 1.8 steals. What a disappointment.

:facepalm
No Cavs fan wants Wall over Kyrie while many Wizs fans would take Kyrie over Wall.

Nuff said. Stop copping pleas, chump. Its disgusting to read.

[tontoz]

No Cavs fan wants Wall over Kyrie while many Wizs fans would take Kyrie over Wall.

Nuff said. Stop copping pleas, chump. Its disgusting to read.



First of all you are an idiot and a clown. Secondly i said specifically that i haven't watched Irving and didn't even say that Wall was better.

So STFU ass wipe. Go make another dumb thread that comes back to clown you.

[redhonda76]

As a rookie Wall averaged 16.4 ppg rookie and was 7th in the league in assists per game. He also averaged 4.6 rebounds and 1.8 steals. What a disappointment.

:facepalm

You forgot to mentioned 40% FG, 30% 3FG, almost 4 turnovers on a 23-59 Wizards.
Irving is 47%fg, 41%3fg, 18.1ppg on a 13-18 Cavs.

Giving Wall with so much hyped and the so-called potential.... yes, he has been a disappointment.

[TheNaturalWR]

You forgot to mentioned 40% FG, 30% 3FG, almost 4 turnovers on a 23-59 Wizards.
Irving is 47%fg, 41%3fg, 18.1ppg on a 13-18 Cavs.

Giving Wall with so much hyped and the so-called potential.... yes, he has been a disappointment.

No one questioned Irving being the better scorer. What the hell do you want in a PG? Scoring or actually making plays and your teammates better? Irving has a 5:3 assist to turnover ratio which is PATHETIC. Wall had a 2:1 ratio which is good for a rookie point guard.

[RedBlackAttack]

No one questioned Irving being the better scorer. What the hell do you want in a PG? Scoring or actually making plays and your teammates better? Irving has a 5:3 assist to turnover ratio which is PATHETIC. Wall had a 2:1 ratio which is good for a rookie point guard.
Irving is doing what he needs to do for this particular Cavaliers team, which has an incredible lack of finishers. He is still learning the game, also.

But, to answer your question, it would be nice to have a player that can do BOTH... Score and make your teammates better. When the Cavs have a couple of years to build a team around him and he has more than 30 games to get accustomed to the professional game, I have little doubt that he will do both.

It is so stupid to me when a person takes such a hardline stance on a comparison like this. Why can't both Wall and Irving both be future stars with admittedly different styles of play?

A 19-year-old guard coming into the league and putting up percentages of 49-85-42 is pretty unprecedented.

[Meticode]

I just watched my first Irving video mix of the season and I have to say he's extremely crafty around the basket while cutting to the hoop. He's really good at using the hoop as a barrier between him and the defender.

[bluechox2]

i take wall, dont let his crappy teammates fool you

[Andrew Wiggins]

wall averaging the same amount of points and turnovers while shooting better percentage from fg, 3 point, an free throw with more assists, steals, rebounds and leading his team to a better record

he's also a infinitely better defender

[Bigsmoke]

Wall

[DukeDelonte13]

wall averaging the same amount of points and turnovers while shooting better percentage from fg, 3 point, an free throw with more assists, steals, rebounds and leading his team to a better record

he's also a infinitely better defender


i'd say he's a better defender but he's not the defensive juggernaut wiz fans make him out to be.


Yes, Wall is playing better than Kyrie is so far this season. No cavs fan can really argue otherwise at this point in time. Maybe things will change as the season progresses but Kyrie has kinda been in a funk most of this season.

[Andrew Wiggins]

i'd say he's a better defender but he's not the defensive juggernaut wiz fans make him out to be.


Yes, Wall is playing better than Kyrie is so far this season. No cavs fan can really argue otherwise at this point in time. Maybe things will change as the season progresses but Kyrie has kinda been in a funk most of this season.

he's held opposing players to 36% shooting when defending the pick and roll and has forced a turnover on nearly 29%. he's really tough to get by too. another interesting stat is that he leads in the league in % of points created for his team, ahead of cp3 and lebron.

[veilside23]

wall ;) all star :pimp:

[steve]

i'd say he's a better defender but he's not the defensive juggernaut wiz fans make him out to be.


Yes, Wall is playing better than Kyrie is so far this season. No cavs fan can really argue otherwise at this point in time. Maybe things will change as the season progresses but Kyrie has kinda been in a funk most of this season.

Actually, no one called him a defensive juggernaut (although Wiggins there provided some fairly good to suggest he's really good on the defensive end) but at this point, he is much better than Irving and it goes beyond numbers to just overall effort. Keep in mind I've only watched a half dozen Cavs games this season, so this is rather limited but it's a lot of the little things that really hurt my impression of Irving's defense. When he's matched up one on one with his man, he does fairly well, stays with him and can contest reasonably well even he does get caught flat footed a little too often.

Where Irving gets into trouble though is seemingly effort level things. He doesn't fight through or play screens particularly well. It's not even a matter of going under or over, he often times just goes straight into the screener. He also gets really lost when he's off the ball just by watching the ball handler and when his man is in the corner really seeps into the center of the floor far too much. What kills me about watching his defensive effort though is how he plays on transition defense or lack thereof. He just doesn't get back. This was especially bad when they were playing the Wizards and Wall was racing down the court and could find Irving jogging back. Just on a basic level, you rarely see Wall take a similar route and is often hustling back and making an overall better effort on the defensive end.

[Clifton]

Irving is averaging 5 assists which no one seems to mention which is pretty mediocre by the way. Wall averaged 8 last year while playing with a group of dumb****s.
That's because Wall is a pass-only point guard who gets most of his points from breakaways and defensive lapses. Anyone can average 8 assists. I could give you a list of guys who have averaged 8 assists in the last ten years and you wouldn't have heard of any of them.

Wall has a lot of work to do to be compared with Kyrie IMO. Not like either has done anything, but Kyrie is eye-poppingly impressive in-game while Wall is not. He can end up with good numbers, because he dominates the ball and gets points no other player could because of his speed. But Kyrie's just a straight baller. That's not something you could say about Wall. Wall's a specimen.

[Uncle Drew]

Bump.

[Wally450]

4 Years later. What says you ISH?

[CTbasketball92]

4 Years later. What says you ISH?

Tie ...my question about John Wall is, can he average like 25 ppg during a playoff run, somewhat efficiently? He's definitely a better passer, but I think you need to be a dynamite scorer to be a team's first or second best player, otherwise you'll just need a bunch of other pieces.

On the other hand, my concern for Kyrie is, how bad of a defender will be continue to be? He was ok in 2014-2015, so he needs to get at least back to that level. Also, Kyrie's passing ability is just a bit suspect to me. If he isn't scoring and he's defending poorly, he seemingly contributes nothing to the game, and he's basically invisible. Whereas Wall might block a few shots and get more rebounds and assists. I think it comes down to this: Wall's game-to-game floor might be a bit higher than Irving's. BUT there aren't more than 4-5 players who can have the playoff run Irving just had and be the devastating offensive force Irving can be. So for me, it's pretty much a tie, until wall shows he can score 22ish points a game efficiently and keep his assists high and keep his defense really good, or Irving averages 24 ppg with 5 assists and a 57TS% and plays solid defense.

[DingDengDong]

4 Years later. What says you ISH?
John Wall would be winning the championship with LeBron too.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Anyone that picked Wall is a retard.


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Milbuck]

Wall is still a better individual player. I love how playing alongside Lebron warps perception of players. Lebron covers up pretty much all of Kyrie's flaws as a player, and lets him flourish in his style. If Kyrie was playing with the same cards Wall has been dealt and had to actually run a team and make people around him better he'd be buttf*cked into the lottery every single year.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wall is still a better individual player. I love how playing alongside Lebron warps perception of players. Lebron covers up pretty much all of Kyrie's flaws as a player, and lets him flourish in his style. If Kyrie was playing with the same cards Wall has been dealt and had to actually run a team and make people around him better he'd be buttf*cked into the lottery every single year.


Coming from a poster that gets a hard-on for low-IQ r.etarded point guards that can't shoot. :lol

[Milbuck]

Coming from a poster that gets a hard-on for low-IQ r.etarded point guards that can't shoot. :lol
I despise Knight, MCW, Bayless, Jennings, etc. Literally the only time I don't is to f*ck with Sixer fans about MCW.

[CTbasketball92]

Wall is still a better individual player. I love how playing alongside Lebron warps perception of players. Lebron covers up pretty much all of Kyrie's flaws as a player, and lets him flourish in his style. If Kyrie was playing with the same cards Wall has been dealt and had to actually run a team and make people around him better he'd be buttf*cked into the lottery every single year.

You talk about flaws, but what about Wall's inability to shoot above 39% in the playoffs? Kyrie played with even worse cards then Wall has (Waiters, Mike Brown, 50 different teammates) and yes, he didn't make the playoffs, but he was also younger than Wall, who also has a $23 mill. a year player in Bradley Beal and a solid frontcourt and wings in Paul Pierce and Trevor Ariza at one point.

Wall has never led a team that was actually bad to any success, so I've never understood that argument. Also, Wall's skillset isn't necessarily all that transferrable because he always needs the ball to be effective. There's no way the Cavs win this year's championship with Wall instead of Kyrie.

[RedBlackAttack]

John Wall would be winning the championship with LeBron too.
I can't think of a worse young star PG to put alongside LeBron than John Wall, and I've grown to really like Wall as a person and player. Him breaking down into tears after that kid he was mentoring with cancer passed away... that's the kind of raw emotion you don't see publicly from many athletes today and it was refreshing.

But, as a player? LeBron and Wall would step all over one another's toes and Wall would likely be traded for a package of players that worked better alongside James.

Wall can't spread the floor and, with the way James' jumper has gone away, they'd be seeing a ton of space on the perimeter and driving lanes clogged. They are both players who thrive with the ball in their hands and Wall would have virtually no impact off the ball.

So, that means less possessions run through LeBron so that Wall can do his drive and kick thing. Both guys are at their best when they're surrounded by snipers who you can't leave alone on the perimeter, thus opening up the floor for them to go to work.

Kyrie Irving is a deadly shooter from literally anywhere on the floor and, in a pinch with the shot clock running down, he can get a decent look up from anywhere. Wall needs to survey the defense and set up his drives.

It would be an awful fit and Wall would go the way of Dion Waiters within a year... not that I'm saying he and Dion are on the same level. Wall is a very good player. Just not the right fit for James.

And, by taking the attitude of "any player could win a title with LeBron," you're doing a disservice to the incredible run Kyrie had all playoffs long, especially in The Finals. The guy averaged 25 a game on 48/44/90 splits for the entire playoffs plus 6 assists, only 2 turnovers and 2 steals for good measure.

Against the Warriors he dominated Curry and averaged 30+ points on 50+% shooting in the Cavs' three elimination games. He scored 41 on 17-24 in the biggest game in Cabs history. He hit the title-winning shot.

I'm sorry, but not just any random good player is doing that. LBJ and Kyrie are a great match.

[ClipperRevival]

Tie ...my question about John Wall is, can he average like 25 ppg during a playoff run, somewhat efficiently? He's definitely a better passer, but I think you need to be a dynamite scorer to be a team's first or second best player, otherwise you'll just need a bunch of other pieces.

On the other hand, my concern for Kyrie is, how bad of a defender will be continue to be? He was ok in 2014-2015, so he needs to get at least back to that level. Also, Kyrie's passing ability is just a bit suspect to me. If he isn't scoring and he's defending poorly, he seemingly contributes nothing to the game, and he's basically invisible. Whereas Wall might block a few shots and get more rebounds and assists. I think it comes down to this: Wall's game-to-game floor might be a bit higher than Irving's. BUT there aren't more than 4-5 players who can have the playoff run Irving just had and be the devastating offensive force Irving can be. So for me, it's pretty much a tie, until wall shows he can score 22ish points a game efficiently and keep his assists high and keep his defense really good, or Irving averages 24 ppg with 5 assists and a 57TS% and plays solid defense.

Nicely said.

Wall is more athletic, the better passer and just more well rounded but Kyrie's got that "game" that when he's on, he's about as good as it gets offensively.

[ClipperRevival]

Wall is still a better individual player. I love how playing alongside Lebron warps perception of players. Lebron covers up pretty much all of Kyrie's flaws as a player, and lets him flourish in his style. If Kyrie was playing with the same cards Wall has been dealt and had to actually run a team and make people around him better he'd be buttf*cked into the lottery every single year.

Please.

LeBron didn't do sh*t to help Kyrie score all those points in the finals against set defenses with a set defense backing that defender.

[nothinbutnet]

Irving is a better playmaker, but John Wall is definitely a better passer. Wall is gonna be a great defender, tho I think Irving will be at least solid there.



Both will be great players, but I think Irving is better. I also like his swagger. Plus, he's representing Elizabeth lol.

Are you from Elizabeth? That's my hometown.

[Milbuck]

Please.

LeBron didn't do sh*t to help Kyrie score all those points in the finals against set defenses with a set defense backing that defender.
I said nothing about Lebron making Kyrie score. Kyrie can get buckets. Everyone knows that. What I said was Lebron does so much for that team in the way of running an offense, finding guys, controlling tempo/pace, etc

[ClipperRevival]

[QUOTE=Milbuck]I said nothing about Lebron making Kyrie score. Kyrie can get buckets. Everyone knows that. What I said was Lebron does so much for that team in the way of running an offense, finding guys, controlling tempo/pace, etc

[RedBlackAttack]

I wondered how long it would take before people began diminishing what Irving just did as a part of a championship-winning duo, the likes of which is rarely seen in the NBA. In doing so, Irving outplayed every PG he faced all the way through, which was no easy task (Reggie Jackson, Teague/Schroder, Lowry, Steph Curry).

Turns out, it took a couple months.

[CTbasketball92]

[QUOTE=Milbuck]I said nothing about Lebron making Kyrie score. Kyrie can get buckets. Everyone knows that. What I said was Lebron does so much for that team in the way of running an offense, finding guys, controlling tempo/pace, etc

[CTbasketball92]

Simple fact is this: If Kyrie doesn't go OFF in the last 3 games, the Cavs don't win. It's that simple. LeBron needed Kyrie almost as much as Kyrie needed LeBron. Anyone giving you 30.0 PPG on amazing efficiency to win the last 3 games of the finals (including the series clinching 3) isn't a 2nd fiddle. That's simply "the man" type production.

So i'm not going to play what-if scenarios with other PGs and assume they will win with LeBron just because Kyrie did. I don't know of another PG who has the offensive game like Kyrie has. And in the playoffs, when the D tightens up, physicality is allowed, the game slows down and most of your buckets must be EARNED in half-court situations with a set D, iso scoring trumps all. That's why GSW lost. They had no one who can create their own shot in that scenario. Most of their points come within the flow. But sometimes, you just need a guy to break down the D and create.

Exactly. There isn't another point guard with Kyrie's iso-skills -- except maybe chris paul when he decides to be aggressive, but even he's a notch below. I don't want my best player to rely on passing the ball to shumpert in an NBA finals game. Go out and drop 30. I think that's sort of the mark of a true superstar. I still think Wall and Kyrie are about even, but Wall has a long way to go to prove he could be the second best player on a championship team.

[Milbuck]

Simple fact is this: If Kyrie doesn't go OFF in the last 3 games, the Cavs don't win. It's that simple. LeBron needed Kyrie almost as much as Kyrie needed LeBron. Anyone giving you 30.0 PPG on amazing efficiency to win the last 3 games of the finals (including the series clinching 3) isn't a 2nd fiddle. That's simply "the man" type production.

So i'm not going to play what-if scenarios with other PGs and assume they will win with LeBron just because Kyrie did. I don't know of another PG who has the offensive game like Kyrie has. And in the playoffs, when the D tightens up, physicality is allowed, the game slows down and most of your buckets must be EARNED in half-court situations with a set D, iso scoring trumps all. That's why GSW lost. They had no one who can create their own shot in that scenario. Most of their points come within the flow. But sometimes, you just need a guy to break down the D and create.
Yeah, sorry I'm not going to evaluate the entirety of his game based off of one series. I'm sure you also think Steph Curry is a fringe all-star now?

[GimmeThat]

with Wall, you can have him play the 2, with Irving, a mercenary back up PG is at your disposal for great bang per buck

[Milbuck]

We won't get to see that scenario with Kyrie for a while, sure, but I definitely don't think we've seen enough to say he can't do that. What I'm interested in seeing is what Wall would do if his third option was completely neutralized. Could he step up and get those buckets when Shump and JR fail on offense because they're not actually that good? Idk. Also, I see what you mean with the pressure argument, but I think Kyrie had the highest possible amount of pressure put onto his shoulders when the cavs went down 3-1 and he had to go on a legendary role. The thing is, you speak as if Kyrie was clearly the second fiddle, but his playoff run -- one that saw him average 25 ppg 5 assists 2 steals and only like 2 turnovers and play solid defense and score a ton of pivotal baskets and get the 3rd highest PER for players that played more than 10 games -- was easily first option worthy. His usage rate was first option level, and so were his stats. So what if he didn't run the team? Runnng a team takes a lot of work, sure, but so does scoring a ton of points against elite defenses while also keeping your turnover rate very low. Kyrie had literally all the responsibilities almost every great shooting guard has had, and there's nothing wrong with that. You could easily make the argument that Kyrie was more responsible for the Cavs' 2016 chip than any one of the Celtics' Big Four -- Pierce (Finals MVP), KG, Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo. He played a much better team than the one the celtics played and had better stats. Pierce had 22 ppg 6 assists 4 rebounds on 43% shooting and 39% from 3. Pierce is considered an all time like top 50 player.
Actually I think we have. We've seen plenty of Kyrie in the regular season, both pre-Lebron and after Lebron's return going into tunnel vision mode and not elevating the players around him on the level of other star point guards.

What Kyrie did in the playoffs and especially in the finals takes a ton of talent. I'm just not going to use it to argue against Wall when the situations are dramatically different. One guy is in literally the perfect situation for him..he's a non traditional iso-heavy shoot first point guard with weak defensive skills on a team led by one of the most dominant offensive weapons of all time who happens to be a brilliant point forward and terrific team perimeter defender. The other guy is a pass first point guard who consistently has meh supporting casts, and has led his teams without high level talent to the playoffs and to the 2nd round on multiple occasions.

I just don't think you can downplay the impact of playing next to Lebron, especially in Kyrie's case where the fit is so damn good. I don't believe if you build from scratch and put equal talent, equal coaching, etc around both of them that you can squeeze more success out of a Kyrie led team than a Wall led team.

[Milbuck]

I wondered how long it would take before people began diminishing what Irving just did as a part of a championship-winning duo, the likes of which is rarely seen in the NBA. In doing so, Irving outplayed every PG he faced all the way through, which was no easy task (Reggie Jackson, Teague/Schroder, Lowry, Steph Curry).

Turns out, it took a couple months.
It's really not that controversial a statement to say that Kyrie Irving is not the ideal player to build around as a centerpiece, and that Wall might be a better option. No one is downplaying that Kyrie was nasty in the playoffs this year. It's just when you use that to talk down Wall, who is relatively speaking in a dogshit situation for his game, that it makes little sense.

[RedBlackAttack]

Actually I think we have. We've seen plenty of Kyrie in the regular season, both pre-Lebron and after Lebron's return going into tunnel vision mode and not elevate the players around him on the level of other star point guards.

What Kyrie did in the playoffs and especially in the finals takes a ton of talent. I'm just not going to use it to argue against Wall when the situations are dramatically different. One guy is in literally the perfect situation for him..he's a non traditional iso-heavy shoot first point guard with weak defensive skills on a team led by one of the most dominant offensive weapons of all time who happens to be a brilliant point forward and terrific team perimeter defender. The other guy is a pass first point guard who consistently has meh supporting casts, and has led his teams without high level talent to the playoffs and to the 2nd round on multiple occasions.
PG: John Wall (19-21yo)
SG: Dion Waiters
SF: Earl Clark
PF: Tristan Thompson
C: Andrew Bynum

Bench: Anthony Bennett, CJ Miles, Alonzo Gee

Coach: Mike Brown or Byron Scott

Team actively tanking his first 2 years.

I'm sure Wall would have flourished in this environment.

[NuggetsFan]

I've been tough on Kryie and he proved me wrong that's for sure.

That being said he's hard to rank. Most fans don't get to enjoy super teams. John Wall and Lillard can't coast and have a so so performance in the regular season and expect to make the finals. Kyrie plays with LeBron who hides all his flaws. Defense, running the offense and making basketball decisions with the ball. A guy like Wall has to go 100% without rest in the regular season and come playoff time like alot of superstars could be burnt out a little bit. Which is why teams want to get guys proper help.

Kyrie needs to bring what he did in the playoffs into the regular season. He's already the 2nd best player vs guys who are the best player on there teams. Until he becomes a consistently elite scorer in the NBA it's hard for me personally to take him over guys like Wall/Lillard. Like as a Nuggets fan I'd want Wall or Lillard over Kyrie. They've proved they can drag a team to the playoffs, Irving has proved he can be a monster and clutch when it matters most which is insanely valuable but if you don't have that superteam? Franchises need there guys to get them there.

Wall wouldn't win rings in Cleveland tho. Kyrie is a perfect fit next too LeBron, Wall wouldn't be.

[Milbuck]

PG: John Wall (19-21yo)
SG: Dion Waiters
SF: Earl Clark
PF: Tristan Thompson
C: Andrew Bynum

Bench: Anthony Bennett, CJ Miles, Alonzo Gee

Coach: Mike Brown or Byron Scott

Team actively tanking his first 2 years.

I'm sure Wall would have flourished in this environment.
I wasn't talking purely results, and I wasn't talking exclusively pre-Lebron either. Style of play is also a factor, and there's been well documented instances of Kyrie's iso-heavy, score first/second/third mentality being troublesome at times for team cohesion..and that's on a team with Lebron, where his skill-set is meant to flourish. They got it together in chunks in the regular season and he went off in the playoffs, but again, I don't think it's that controversial a statement to say that given all we've seen from Kyrie in the past 5 years, his game isn't ideal to lead a team as the #1.

[CTbasketball92]

Actually I think we have. We've seen plenty of Kyrie in the regular season, both pre-Lebron and after Lebron's return going into tunnel vision mode and not elevating the players around him on the level of other star point guards.

What Kyrie did in the playoffs and especially in the finals takes a ton of talent. I'm just not going to use it to argue against Wall when the situations are dramatically different. One guy is in literally the perfect situation for him..he's a non traditional iso-heavy shoot first point guard with weak defensive skills on a team led by one of the most dominant offensive weapons of all time who happens to be a brilliant point forward and terrific team perimeter defender. The other guy is a pass first point guard who consistently has meh supporting casts, and has led his teams without high level talent to the playoffs and to the 2nd round on multiple occasions.

I just don't think you can downplay the impact of playing next to Lebron, especially in Kyrie's case where the fit is so damn good. I don't believe if you build from scratch and put equal talent, equal coaching, etc around both of them that you can squeeze more success out of a Kyrie led team than a Wall led team.

I don't completely disagree. I'd need to see kyrie with a good team for more than a few game stretch when lebron leaves and the flow is thrown off. I think Wall is a more instinctive playmaker than Kyrie is for sure. I just think that your best player has to be able to score a ton of points efficiently if you're going to have any shot at winning a chip. I think I saw a stat that said no team has won a chip with a point guard averaging over 8 assists. That's not an end-all, be-all thing, but i think it does say something about how overrated the advantage of a "True PG" can be.

If you put both on bad teams, maybe Wall can do more. I don't think he'd do much better though, and the times he did make the playoffs, his team was much better than the one Irving had. Gortat was good, Ariza was good when he was there, Pierce was still useful and hitting clutch shots, and Beal was so good in 2015 (when wall was injured) that he averaged 25 ppg 5 apg and 6 rebounds on 42% FG and 39% from 3pt range against the Hawks. The year before, against the Pacers, Beal averaged 19 points 5 assists and 5 rebounds on 41% shooting from the field and 39% from three as the Wizards went 6 games against the Pacers and lost. What did (Healthy) Wall do doing that series? 14 ppg 7.5 apg 4 rebounds and 4 turnovers per game while shooting 37% from the field. Absolutely awful, and that shows that all the Wizards needed Wall to be a legit scoring threat in the halfcourt for them to beat the pacers. Everyone else on their team did their jobs, but Wall didn't, and they were still good enough to win 6 games. With that said, I don't think anyone in their right minds would expect Kyrie to get exposed like that during this past season, which was his age 23 season, the same way that failed playoff series was John Wall's age 23 season. That's simply not going to cut it on a championship team where Wall is one of your two best players, and I haven't seen anything to suggest that he'd do better now. Irving proved that he can be a leading scorer on a championship team. Wall proved that he could get a solid team to the playoffs and before getting shut down. I still say it's roughly a draw, but this idea that Wall ever led a bad team to any success is ridiculous. As The playoffs have shown, Beal is a really good player when he's healthy, and he's arguably outplayed wall everytime theyve been on the biggest stage. Can't say the same would happen to Irving because he's an advanced halfcourt scorer (top 3-4 in the league most likely).

[RedBlackAttack]

It's really not that controversial a statement to say that Kyrie Irving is not the ideal player to build around as a centerpiece, and that Wall might be a better option. No one is downplaying that Kyrie was nasty in the playoffs this year. It's just when you use that to talk down Wall, who is relatively speaking in a dogshit situation for his game, that it makes little sense.
1. All I can do is speak for myself and I never downplayed Wall, other than saying he and LBJ would be a horrible fit... which seems obvious.

2. Using Irving's first 3 years in Cleveland or even his style of play right now, on this team, as proof that he isn't "an ideal player to build around" as compared with John Wall is not to give Irving a fair shake
The team wasn't even trying to win in his first two seasons, the organization was in disarray top to bottom, and the rosters did nothing to help amplify his strengths and minimize his weaknesses, as all even decent "build arounds" should do. They were just ... bad teams with bad coaching.

3. We now know something about Irving that separates him from a lot of players in the league. We know that he plays his absolute best basketball when the stakes are highest. There aren't many players in the league that could step up the way he did with the team's back against the wall and help overcome a 3-1 deficit against a 73-win team, let alone 23-year-old players. But, because he led a truly awful Cavs team to 30 wins instead of 35 wins (would have been playoffs) when he was 21, that should somehow be a black mark on his legacy? There really aren't too many 21 year old players who could've led that team to 35-40 wins. Go back and look at the rosters and the coaches and the constant franchise turmoil.

4. As for his style of play not being conducive to building a team around, I'd say I have no idea, because it has never happened. I think if you put a 3&D guy at the 2 and another player to help be a secondary playmaker at the 3, a stretch 4 and a rim protecting center, he could be fine in a leading role. We've never seen anything close to that. I'm also not sure Wall has proven (or disproven) that he can be a #1 option on a really good team either.

[NuggetsFan]

PG: John Wall (19-21yo)
SG: Dion Waiters
SF: Earl Clark
PF: Tristan Thompson
C: Andrew Bynum

Bench: Anthony Bennett, CJ Miles, Alonzo Gee

Coach: Mike Brown or Byron Scott

Team actively tanking his first 2 years.

I'm sure Wall would have flourished in this environment.

I mean someone like Lillard was pegged to finish bottom 5 and carried Portland to the playoffs. I think Wall makes that unit better. Irving can get all the assists he wants but alot of them comes from 1 vs 1 scoring that breaks down, over dribbling the ball etc. Similar to a player like Iverson except A.I manged to get 7+ dimes off them where as Irving had 3 or less assists in 7/21 playoff games. He'll occasionally get dimes but it's not really consistent and it's not the kinda team ball you wanna see. Which is why he and LeBron work so well together because Irving going hero mode saves LeBron's ass. LeBron having elite basketball IQ and taking the responsibility as the "guy" saves Irving.

Fact is most superstars have to play 70+ plus games to get there team into playoff position and in the playoffs that team rides or dies with them. Irving doesn't have to do that. Does Irving have enough gas left in the tank to explode on the Warriors in the WCF after a season of carrying a team by himself? We don't know yet.

It's a difficult situation. He's never had a truly elite regular season. '15 was very good. He just had an All-Time great playoff run, like up there if not the best for a 2nd option. You'll come back with his age but Irving is Irving. He came into the league with an elite skill set. He's got elite handles, elite shooting, amazing finisher. He's had that since he was like 22. It's his basketball IQ which is typically pretty natural and his lack of an All-Round game.

Irving kinda reminds of the PG version of Melo but he's yet to consistently score at an elite level yet. I see that changing this season and he averages 24+.

[FatComputerNerd]

It's really not that controversial a statement to say that Kyrie Irving is not the ideal player to build around as a centerpiece, and that Wall might be a better option. No one is downplaying that Kyrie was nasty in the playoffs this year. It's just when you use that to talk down Wall, who is relatively speaking in a dogshit situation for his game, that it makes little sense.


Anyone with half a brain knows this. Wall or Conley probably.

Kyrie juts happens to be one of those transcendent players...a true alpha who walks the walk. Also it's true that a player like Kyrie fits better with Lebron, as was pointed out. Teams with a guy like Lebron (or other point-forwards like draymond, etc) don't need a traditional cookie-cutter PG.

[Jasper]

The best aspect of Kyrie's game isn't even his shooting, although it is clearer great. No, the best part of Kyrie's game is his ball-handling skills and ability to change direction.

He already has one of the best handles in the league at 19.

Mike Bibby? Really? He was actually a very nice player in his prime, but their games are NOTHING alike.

Also, there is more than just straight-line speed, hops and having a large frame when it comes to judging athleticism. It is also about dexterity, balance, reflexes and quickness in change of direction... All of which Kyrie has shown in spades.

I have nothing against John Wall, but I swear to god people aren't even watching Irving with some of these comments.
Holds true 5 years later

[RedBlackAttack]

I mean someone like Lillard was pegged to finish bottom 5 and carried Portland to the playoffs. I think Wall makes that unit better. Irving can get all the assists he wants but alot of them comes from 1 vs 1 scoring that breaks down, over dribbling the ball etc. Similar to a player like Iverson except A.I manged to get 7+ dimes off them where as Irving had 3 or less assists in 7/21 playoff games. He'll occasionally get dimes but it's not really consistent and it's not the kinda team ball you wanna see. Which is why he and LeBron work so well together because Irving going hero mode saves LeBron's ass. LeBron having elite basketball IQ and taking the responsibility as the "guy" saves Irving.

Fact is most superstars have to play 70+ plus games to get there team into playoff position and in the playoffs that team rides or dies with them. Irving doesn't have to do that. Does Irving have enough gas left in the tank to explode on the Warriors in the WCF after a season of carrying a team by himself? We don't know yet.

It's a difficult situation. He's never had a truly elite regular season. '15 was very good. He just had an All-Time great playoff run, like up there if not the best for a 2nd option. You'll come back with his age but Irving is Irving. He came into the league with an elite skill set. He's got elite handles, elite shooting, amazing finisher. He's had that since he was like 22. It's his basketball IQ which is typically pretty natural and his lack of an All-Round game.

Irving kinda reminds of the PG version of Melo but he's yet to consistently score at an elite level yet. I see that changing this season and he averages 24+.
Without even challenging any of the points made in your argument, here's the thing about it and similar ones made by others... would you rather have a player in Wall who has proven so far that he can lead a decent roster to the playoffs as the #1 playmaker on the team or would you rather have a younger player who hasn't proven that yet, but has proven on a championship roster that he can go nuclear as an elite scoring option and take over large portions of games in The Finals without a hint of the moment being too big?

So far, that seems to be the discussion. To me, finding a guy like Irving who can fit alongside another great player so seamlessly and take great strides in closing the gap against a historically great team is harder to find than a more conventional point guard like Wall.

Keep in mind that I think we're selling that Wizards team a little short, here. Wall didn't drag some horrible roster to two playoff berths. He wasn't the leading the scorer on the team in either of those years. Bradley Beal averaged basically 25/5/5 in the playoffs during their last appearance. He's far better than anyone Irving played with during the pre-LeBron Cavs years and he was often the guy who would take the last shot down the stretch of a close game.

Wall has shot a little over 37% from the field in his playoff career. Again, I'm not downgrading the guy. Scoring in the playoffs is hard. But, that only goes to show how impressive it is when a guy can do the damage Irving did with his scoring and still maintain incredible efficiency.

You can say, "Well he has LeBron on his team," but Kyrie often takes over the scoring burden when James is resting.


As to your point in your post that Kyrie Irving is essentially the same guy he was when he came into the league, I vehemently disagree and I think that is the opinion of someone who doesn't watch him all that often.

Kyrie came into the league a more polished all-around scorer than any teenager I have ever seen. But, his fitness left a lot to be desired. He would be good to awesome in big games against name opponents, especially anything nationally televised (rare in those days), but a random Wednesday night in the middle of the season against the Bucks? He'd mail in those games sometimes, especially defensively, and it was pretty obvious when he was coasting and when he was scrapping.

That would also lead to a lot of little scrapes, bumps and bruises that would cause him to miss a game here and there. It didn't help that the Cavs would pull him out for a week for a hangnail because they were tanking, but Kyrie was prone to getting the kind of injuries caused more by fatigue than a fragile body.

Nowadays? He's learned how to condition himself, becoming more limber, how to take the hits and when to pull back, and how nutrition can help. You look at a picture of him today and one from 2011-12 and you can see the difference. He was doughy then. Now, he's often the one moving bigger players to help create room to get a shot up.

Another thing is his decision making and basketball IQ. Those possessions where he dribbles the clock out and ends up in the corner or on the baseline wasting a possession were an actual problem at one time for Kyrie (some people incorrectly think they still are). Because his game is based so much on breaking down the defense, it'll still happen from time to time, but they're much less common now than they were. That's a big reason why his turnover rate has consistently dropped over his career.

He only averaged 2.3 turnovers in the regular season last year and 2.7 in the playoffs. Considering his usage rate, those numbers are very, very low.

There was also a time when he couldn't be on the court for 40+ minutes a night against a team like the Warriors because he'd be too big a liability defensively. That was obviously no longer the case. If anything, he did a good job of pestering Curry, maintaining his discipline throughout long possessions, and being in sync with his teammates on switches.

He is probably never going to be a great defender, but he doesn't have to be. With his offensive skillset, being reliable is good enough.

Yeah... I could go on about the continued growth of his offensive game, but I'll stop there. I think you guys get the point.

[NuggetsFan]

Without even challenging any of the points made in your argument, here's the thing about your argument and the one made by others... would you rather have a player in Wall who has proven so far that he can lead a decent roster to the playoffs as the #1 playmaker on the team or would you rather have a younger player who hasn't proven that yet, but has proven he can go nuclear as an elite scoring option on a championship roster?


The thing is Kyrie has proven he can go nuclear with LeBron James picking up all the extra duties next to him. Without LeBron he would have to handle far more responsibilities. On top of that he wouldn't get to coast in the regular season playing 53 games. You don't think stamina factors into the playoffs? That teams don't rest guys for a reason? Irving without the Cavs super team doesn't get the same kinda rest he did this season. I'm not saying it would prevent him from going off in the finals but it's without a doubt something that needs to be took into consideration. Wall carries his team all RS and into the playoffs. Irving sat back this year, waited it out, and exploded in the most important games which is an A+ but most teams can't afford to do that.

As for the answer to the question. The proven player for 90% of the teams in the league, and the other player for the contenders depending on what that roster looks like. With Cleveland/LeBron Irving. With a guy like Durant? John Wall. Wall makes players around him far better, different tier defensively, and while Irving's skillset as a scorer is another level than John Wall he hasn't strung together seasons where that's actually came alive. He hasn't averaged 25 a game for a season. So until he proves he can score at an elite level as a 1st option or even on the Cavs superstar for prolonged periods of time I think you gotta go with the guy who destroys him everywhere else.

The age thing I didn't really tap into. I was talking about his skillset. Things like diet/stamina/strength are obviously going to improve from ages 19-24. Cutting down on turnovers and adjusting to the NBA is also something that happens typically. As for his scoring/what kinda player he is? We knew what his ceiling was at 23. A ridiculous elite level scorer that has basketball IQ issues, questionable defense, and doesn't really add much outside of scoring/clutch play. He won't develop into a floor general at age 26. Irving is a rare player. He came into the NBA IMO similar to a Brandon Roy. He was ready beyond his years. He wasn't raw. Had a few things he obviously needed to tweak but Irving isn't going to make a jump from age 24 to 27 that's going to leave anybody surprised :confusedshrug: he's one of the most skilled players in the league. It's between the ears, and his game that people take issue with and that's something that's usually difficult to change regardless of age.

[NuggetsFan]

I don't even want to discredit Irving anymore because I was 100% wrong on him and will eat crow. Just saying he's difficult to rank vs others. He has an elite scoring skillset and does everything else at an average to below average to occasionally awful level depending on the game.

He's yet to use that elite scoring skill set to produce elite scoring numbers for a 82 game season, which as I said earlier I expect to see this season. However he just exploded in the most important games of his entire career. So he's played at an elite level during crucial times but hasn't done it consistently. On top of that he plays with LeBron James and Kevin Love on stacked rosters.

John Wall
J.R Smith
Kevin Durant
Kevin Love
Andrew Bogut

What does that team do? John Wall's play probably gets better and him playing elite D dropping tons of dimes? I gave them Andrew Bogut at C because if were being honest LeBron is easily better than Durant so it helps close the gap.

It's actually Lillard who I think gets slept on the most out of these 3 guys and I hate the Trailblazers as much as any team in the league.

[RedBlackAttack]

Are the Cavs best served with Kyrie averaging 25 a night in the regular season? I'd argue that averaging around 20 points a game is exactly what his role called for on this specific team at this time in James' and Love's careers, respectively... not mentioning JR Smith, who is a hell of a scorer in his own right.

And, if Kyrie would have shot his normal 38-42% from three this season, that would have put him up around 23 points while averaging only 31 minutes a game.

Kyrie wasn't "coasting" this year. He was recovering from a serious injury. It took Blake Griffin a full calendar year to return from exactly the same injury his rookie year.

Plus, the Cavs had a coaching change mid-season, Kyrie's 4th coach in 5 years.

I don't want to get into a longwinded explanation about the depth of Irving's shot-making abilities and how they've improved from his rookie year until now, but I will note that he has become an infinitely better shooter from the midrange, and he was a good one when he came into the league. However, going from good to elite is a step.

You can see it when you watch him play. It feels like every time he takes that little step-back or pull-up jumper from 15-feet, it is dropping.

But, the statistics also show that to be the case. He shot 47+% from 10-16 feet and an incredible 50+% from 16-feet to the three-point line last regular season. It continued in the playoffs, except he started knocking down threes at his normal rate as well and suddenly he was averaging 25 points a game.

He's added that elite midrange shot to his game. His first few years, he was a really good finisher, a really good long-range shooter and a pretty good mid-range shooter. Now, he's damn near elite in all of those areas of the floor. And, being able to pull up with that kind of confidence instead of trying to get all the way to the rim has helped him see the floor better and make better decisions if the shot isn't there.

The impact of LeBron James and the rest of the team can't be quantified in statistics. There is no doubt that the gravity of LeBron and Love to a much lesser extent help Kyrie's game and vice versa, but the fact that he's such a valuable piece on a championship team counts for a lot more to me, apparently, than it does to some others.

LeBron James can't do it alone. He proved that his first run in Cleveland, a couple of the years in Miami, and last year when everyone got hurt. There were a lot of people who argued to no end that the Cavs were actually better off without Irving against the Warriors. I can't help but wonder if some of those same people are the ones in threads like these, still nit-picking his value.

I don't direct that at anyone in particular, but these conversations do seem familiar and I wonder exactly what Kyrie has to do in order to satisfy certain people.

[NuggetsFan]

LeBron James can't do it alone. He proved that his first run in Cleveland, a couple of the years in Miami, and last year when everyone got hurt

Exactly. Which is what guys like Wall and Lillard are asked to do. Irving is asked to play second fiddle, granted he just had the greatest performance of a player in that role ever in the finals. In the regular season? Not so much. So for like 21 games Irving was that dude. Obviously I know the injury was the reason for all the rest and coasting which is my point. 90% of NBA franchises can't accommodate that. Cavs, Warriors, Spurs, Clippers so in rankings that are for every team in the league, not just superstar teams that has to factor in doesn't it? Guess with the way things are headed probably not :lol

I mean chances are he's going to become that guy soon enough. Maybe not next year but eventually as LeBron declines Irving will be called apon to score 25 or more all regular season than do his thing in the playoffs. People were saying the same things with Kobe and he was dropping 30 in the regular season with Shaq. Players like Shaq/LeBron make life alot easier. Without them? Some obviously flourish with more responsibility. I'm just not convinced Irving is a guy who will flourish in that role. That you want him carrying teams to the playoffs as your best player. At the end of the day the guys who do that the best are your most valuable because not every team in the league has a top 4-5 player your building around.

To each his own. He proved me wrong. Had an incredible playoffs. He's deff stuck in that shitty spot where people will pull him down because of 'Bron or overrate him because of 'Bron.

[RedBlackAttack]

Exactly. Which is what guys like Wall and Lillard are asked to do. Irving is asked to play second fiddle, granted he just had the greatest performance of a player in that role ever in the finals. In the regular season? Not so much. So for like 21 games Irving was that dude. Obviously I know the injury was the reason for all the rest and coasting which is my point. 90% of NBA franchises can't accommodate that. Cavs, Warriors, Spurs, Clippers so in rankings that are for every team in the league, not just superstar teams that has to factor in doesn't it? Guess with the way things are headed probably not :lol

I mean chances are he's going to become that guy soon enough. Maybe not next year but eventually as LeBron declines Irving will be called apon to score 25 or more all regular season than do his thing in the playoffs. People were saying the same things with Kobe and he was dropping 30 in the regular season with Shaq. Players like Shaq/LeBron make life alot easier. Without them? Some obviously flourish with more responsibility. I'm just not convinced Irving is a guy who will flourish in that role. That you want him carrying teams to the playoffs as your best player. At the end of the day the guys who do that the best are your most valuable because not every team in the league has a top 4-5 player your building around.

To each his own. He proved me wrong. Had an incredible playoffs. He's deff stuck in that shitty spot where people will pull him down because of 'Bron or overrate him because of 'Bron.
Fair enough.

Credit for owning up to your previous position being proven wrong in the 2016 playoffs. No one can predict the future, but Irving became a legend in Cleveland this summer. And, regardless of how the rest of his career unfolds, that playoff run and Finals performance will always be there.

I've always been confident that Irving will end up being an elite player in this league. Thinking about four years from now when Curry and Westbrook are in their 30s, he should just be hitting his physical prime.

By then, it will feel like he has been in the league for decades and his game should age well, imo.

Guess we'll find out together.

[NuggetsFan]

Fair enough.

Credit for owning up to your previous position being proven wrong in the 2016 playoffs. No one can predict the future, but Irving became a legend in Cleveland this summer. And, regardless of how the rest of his career unfolds, that playoff run and Finals performance will always be there.

I've always been confident that Irving will end up being an elite player in this league. Thinking about four years from now when Curry and Westbrook are in their 30s, he should just be hitting his physical prime.

By then, it will feel like he has been in the league for decades and his game should age well, imo.

Guess we'll find out together.

Yeah what he did for Cleveland can never be forgotten. Even among NBA fans if Irving ended up dealing with injury issues the rest of his career or didn't become the player most think he will become that finals performance will always be legendary.

[tpols]

kyrie is super skill scorer, wall athletic playmaker.. depends what you need, but in general i would rather not have the ball dominator that cant shoot in wall.. kyrie would fit better in more places with his spacing / shooting / clutch scoring approach. (you're not winning w/ either as your first option anyway)

[ShawkFactory]

Are the Cavs best served with Kyrie averaging 25 a night in the regular season? I'd argue that averaging around 20 points a game is exactly what his role called for on this specific team at this time in James' and Love's careers, respectively... not mentioning JR Smith, who is a hell of a scorer in his own right.

And, if Kyrie would have shot his normal 38-42% from three this season, that would have put him up around 23 points while averaging only 31 minutes a game.

Kyrie wasn't "coasting" this year. He was recovering from a serious injury. It took Blake Griffin a full calendar year to return from exactly the same injury his rookie year.

Plus, the Cavs had a coaching change mid-season, Kyrie's 4th coach in 5 years.

I don't want to get into a longwinded explanation about the depth of Irving's shot-making abilities and how they've improved from his rookie year until now, but I will note that he has become an infinitely better shooter from the midrange, and he was a good one when he came into the league. However, going from good to elite is a step.

You can see it when you watch him play. It feels like every time he takes that little step-back or pull-up jumper from 15-feet, it is dropping.

But, the statistics also show that to be the case. He shot 47+% from 10-16 feet and an incredible 50+% from 16-feet to the three-point line last regular season. It continued in the playoffs, except he started knocking down threes at his normal rate as well and suddenly he was averaging 25 points a game.

He's added that elite midrange shot to his game. His first few years, he was a really good finisher, a really good long-range shooter and a pretty good mid-range shooter. Now, he's damn near elite in all of those areas of the floor. And, being able to pull up with that kind of confidence instead of trying to get all the way to the rim has helped him see the floor better and make better decisions if the shot isn't there.

The impact of LeBron James and the rest of the team can't be quantified in statistics. There is no doubt that the gravity of LeBron and Love to a much lesser extent help Kyrie's game and vice versa, but the fact that he's such a valuable piece on a championship team counts for a lot more to me, apparently, than it does to some others.

LeBron James can't do it alone. He proved that his first run in Cleveland, a couple of the years in Miami, and last year when everyone got hurt. There were a lot of people who argued to no end that the Cavs were actually better off without Irving against the Warriors. I can't help but wonder if some of those same people are the ones in threads like these, still nit-picking his value.

I don't direct that at anyone in particular, but these conversations do seem familiar and I wonder exactly what Kyrie has to do in order to satisfy certain people.
What does Kyrie have to do to completely satisfy people?

Well, unfortunate as it is...he needs to not be on the same team as Lebron.

Bron brings up too many angles from people everywhere and everbody else he plays with is seemingly just a pawn, regardless of how great they are. One second that pawn snatches your king, the next second they're exposable. It's bullshit.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wall being a dumb player is what really hurts him here. Irving hasn't proved yet he can lead a team to the playoffs as the man. But I would still take my chance on him being able to take that step, than on a point guard that can't shoot, and has the IQ of 72. It's just really hard to ignore Irving's postseason. He might be the most clutch player in the league. Lebron can play with anyone. But Irving is just such a better fit. Would you rather pass the ball out of a double team to Irving or Wall? Aside from defense, wall doesn't bring a lot to the table to make this a debate. and point guard defense in general is pretty overrated. Curry, Parker, Chalmers, Old Jason Kidd, Derek Fisher, etc. those are the point guards of the last few finals teams. And only Kidd was impressive at that aspect don't the game (guarded best wing player on each team every series).

[PP34Deuce]

I don't get all this wall being a dumb player. He's got a high IQ for basketball. He's a true PG in every sense of the word from a floor general stand point.

Wall's issue is the environment he's been in playing for Washington. He's immature and if he could grow with Beal and not be against him, they could have a similar success like Lowry and Derozan.

Does anybody remember what Paul Pierce said about being on the Wizards about Wall and Beal? He basically said these guys could be so much better but they were inconsistent even in practices. Article here > https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2015/04/14/paul-pierce-on-john-wall-and-bradley-beal-make-up-your-mind-about-being-good-or-great/

[SilkkTheShocker]

I am honestly shocked this is still a debate.

[ralph_i_el]

Wall being a dumb player is what really hurts him here. Irving hasn't proved yet he can lead a team to the playoffs as the man. But I would still take my chance on him being able to take that step, than on a point guard that can't shoot, and has the IQ of 72. It's just really hard to ignore Irving's postseason. He might be the most clutch player in the league. Lebron can play with anyone. But Irving is just such a better fit. Would you rather pass the ball out of a double team to Irving or Wall? Aside from defense, wall doesn't bring a lot to the table to make this a debate. and point guard defense in general is pretty overrated. Curry, Parker, Chalmers, Old Jason Kidd, Derek Fisher, etc. those are the point guards of the last few finals teams. And only Kidd was impressive at that aspect don't the game (guarded best wing player on each team every series).


Where the hell are you getting this idea that Wall is a low IQ player?

He consistently makes passes that most point guards don't even see. He's right up there with CP3 and Rubio in terms of court vision. Every wing player who has played with him gets a significant bump in their jumpshooting stats because he force feeds them easy shots.

Not only that, but he's one of the most ambidextrous players in the league. He finishes with his left hand more than almost any righty, including on dunks.

The only IQ knock I can even think of for Wall is his PnR defense against quick, knockdown shooting guards, like Patty Mills or Aaron Brooks types. He makes up for that by being able to guard ISO's like a boss and play great team and transition defense.


Other posters have touched on this, but the best situation for Wall would be alongside an elite PnR big, or shooting+scoring wing. I'm talking KD and AD type players.

Imagine Anthony Davis alongside Wall. AD has put up huge stats alongside weak guard play, and gets most of his shots created by said guards. Alongside Wall he could put up 30+ ppg.

[moongaze]

PG: John Wall (19-21yo)
SG: Dion Waiters
SF: Earl Clark
PF: Tristan Thompson
C: Andrew Bynum

Bench: Anthony Bennett, CJ Miles, Alonzo Gee

Coach: Mike Brown or Byron Scott

Team actively tanking his first 2 years.

I'm sure Wall would have flourished in this environment.
:oldlol:

[ralph_i_el]

PG: John Wall (19-21yo)
SG: Dion Waiters
SF: Earl Clark
PF: Tristan Thompson
C: Andrew Bynum

Bench: Anthony Bennett, CJ Miles, Alonzo Gee

Coach: Mike Brown or Byron Scott

Team actively tanking his first 2 years.

I'm sure Wall would have flourished in this environment.

Wall's Rookie Season:

Wall
JaVale McGee (clown)
Andray Blatche (Clown)
Nick Young (CLOWN)
Kirk Hinrich (old)
Yi Jianlian (Chinesey)

Coach: Flip Saunders

^In order of minutes played


NEXT SEASON:

John Wall
Jordan Crawford (double clown)
Chris Singleton (garbage rookie)
Trevor Booker (undersized rebounder)
Nick Young
Kevin Serapin (has no idea how to play basketball)
JaVale McGee
Jan Vesely (hot garbage. 1-21 on his first 21 jumpshots....weighed like 180lbs)

Kyrie was not alone in the shitty team situation.

[Meticode]

The one that scores without giving up a lot of energy to do so. The one who has a consistent jumpshot. The one that can shoot a three pointer in the face of the greatest three point shooter ever, in a game 7, and hit that shit in his grill to put your team up. The one that proved me totally wrong this playoffs.

[AintNoSunshine]

Love Kyrie. Way better offensive player.

But Wall being the better playmaker may be a bit easier to build around.

But if it's my team where I am choosing with my gut feeling I will take Kyrie, because you can never underestimate the ability to score in almost any given situation.

[RedBlackAttack]

Wall's Rookie Season:

Wall
JaVale McGee (clown)
Andray Blatche (Clown)
Nick Young (CLOWN)
Kirk Hinrich (old)
Yi Jianlian (Chinesey)

Coach: Flip Saunders

^In order of minutes played


NEXT SEASON:

John Wall
Jordan Crawford (double clown)
Chris Singleton (garbage rookie)
Trevor Booker (undersized rebounder)
Nick Young
Kevin Serapin (has no idea how to play basketball)
JaVale McGee
Jan Vesely (hot garbage. 1-21 on his first 21 jumpshots....weighed like 180lbs)

Kyrie was not alone in the shitty team situation.

No, but Wall doesn't get beaten around for not finding a way to win with those horrible rosters the way Kyrie does. The roster I posted was the Cavs' starting lineup to start his third season.

With the teams you posted, Wall's teams went 22-60 and 20-46, respectively. That's not held against John, nor should it be.

Kyrie Irving going 33-49 with the roster I posted does often come under fire for not leading his team to the playoffs before LeBron showed up.

[FatComputerNerd]

I am honestly shocked this is still a debate.

It's only a debate because of Wall being arguably a better pure PG and defender.

TBH I would probably take Wall myself if building a team from scratch, if not Conley, and I'm a freaking cavs fan who loves Kyrie!

That said, Kyrie is clearly the superior player.