Build Franchise: Julius Erving Or Dirk Nowitzki?

[Jotaro Durant]

who u got:confusedshrug:

[DMAVS41]

Dirk

[JMT]

"Building a franchise"? So you mean from the ground up, this is the guy I start with?

Doc. Sells tickets.

[miles berg]

"Building a franchise"? So you mean from the ground up, this is the guy I start with?

Doc. Sells tickets.

Dirk has the longest sellout streak in the NBA, both regular season and playoffs.

As for the topic, Dirk.

[PTB Fan]

Not sure if serious.

Doctor J.

[rodman91]

Dirk no doubt for a better team, but if i'm desperate for selling tickets,jerseys and more media attention.. Dr.J

[JMT]

Dirk has the longest sellout streak in the NBA, both regular season and playoffs.

As for the topic, Dirk.

That is amazingly pointless for something that, on the surface, seems like it has something to do with the point.

[L.Kizzle]

What kind of question is this?

You take Doc J 10 out of 10 times.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Doctor J and its not even close.

[WillC]

What kind of question is this?

You take Doc J 10 out of 10 times.

Pretty much.

I'm a big fan of Nowitzki, but come on now. He's no Julius Erving.

[Odinn]

:lol and :facepalm at acting like Dr. J wasn't a model franchise-player. He led the Sixers to the NBA Finals 3 times before Moses Malone's arrival.

[L.Kizzle]

Dallas has the longest sellout streak in the NBA, both regular season and playoffs.

As for the topic, Dirk.
fixed.

No hate, but Dirk Nowitzki doesn't sell tickets.

[Jotaro Durant]

:lol and :facepalm at acting like Dr. J wasn't a model franchise-player. He led the Sixers to the NBA Finals 3 times before Moses Malone's arrival.
who acting like that:confusedshrug: they both noticeably franchise players......dirk has most records for mavs even.......

[L.Kizzle]

who acting like that:confusedshrug: they both noticeably franchise players......dirk has most records for mavs even.......
More records, he plays for the freakin Mavericks. There is not one Hall of Famer who has spent the bulk of their career as a Mav. Rolando freakin Blackmon was their franchise leading scorer until Dirk passed him a few seasons ago.

[Lord Leoshes]

Julius Erving all day every day.


If this was a shooting contest then it would be different, but since it is an NBA game then i want someone that can actually defend. Dirk only plays half the game. (on the offensive side).

[LJJ]

What kind of question is this?

You take Doc J 10 out of 10 times.

Yup.

First of all it's easier to build around a picture perfect wing player like Erving than to build around a stretch 4.

There is that and..., Julius Erving was just flat out better than Dirk too.

[DMAVS41]

Yup.

First of all it's easier to build around a picture perfect wing player like Erving than to build around a stretch 4.

There is that and..., Julius Erving was just flat out better than Dirk too.


No..he simply wasn't. I think Dirk was the better player actually.

LOL @ flat out better. Nope. Try again.

[Lord Leoshes]

[/B]

No..he simply wasn't. I think Dirk was the better player actually.

LOL @ flat out better. Nope. Try again.



Are you even old enough to have seen him play in his prime?

[miles berg]

fixed.

No hate, but Dirk Nowitzki doesn't sell tickets.

No hate or no logic? Dallas had Atlanta Hawk keel attendance for years, acquired Dirk Nowitzki, watched him become a huge star, and have sold out ever since,

Trust me, as someone that actually lives in DFW, Dirk is a gigantic draw. He is the Mavs. Others have come and gone, but the fans have stayed because Dirk has stayed.

Not sure if you guys are being serious or not but Dirk is a much better player to build around than Erving was. He was a notch above Melo, a notch below LeBron, and a notch bellow Nowitzki.

It's just how it is. Moses Malone...better than Nowitzki. Dr. J? Umm, no.

[DMAVS41]

Are you even old enough to have seen him play in his prime?

Are you? This notion that Dr. J was easily better than a guy like Dirk is silly. I saw Dr. J play from 79 on...which was his 2nd or 3rd NBA season.

His impact was simply not "flat out" better than Dirk's....

[LJJ]

[/B]

No..he simply wasn't. I think Dirk was the better player actually.

LOL @ flat out better. Nope. Try again.

Try again?

I don't need to explain anything to you. You are one of the most delusional stans on this site. Go find me one sane poster who says Erving isn't better. He doesn't exist.

[DMAVS41]

Try again?

I don't need to explain anything to you. You are one of the most delusional stans on this site. Go find me one sane poster who says Erving isn't better. He doesn't exist.

Oh ok. You can't explain it. The only thing would be nostalgia....they are absolutely on the same tier as players.

I have no issue with someone saying Doc, but its not clear cut.

Funny how being called a stan...people said the same thing last year...saying Dirk could never lead a team to the title etc.

LOL

[Lord Leoshes]

Are you? This notion that Dr. J was easily better than a guy like Dirk is silly. I saw Dr. J play from 79 on...which was his 2nd or 3rd NBA season.

His impact was simply not "flat out" better than Dirk's....


I am 42 years old, & yes ive seen him play often.

Out of curiosity, do you see Dirk as being = defensively as Erving, or is your opinion only on the offense end?

[Smoke117]

Julius Erving.

[LJJ]

Funny how being called a stan...people said the same thing last year...saying Dirk could never lead a team to the title etc.

LOL

You are a stan. Are you going to sit here and act like you aren't all over every Dirk thread like flies on shit, defending your little prince? Lol.

And yes, that type of behavior is considered pathetic by all sane folks.

[DMAVS41]

I am 42 years old, & yes ive seen him play often.

Out of curiosity, do you see Dirk as being = defensively as Erving, or is your opinion only on the offense end?

Its about overall impact. I don't break players down like you do I guess. It leads to poor conclusions in my opinion.

They are on the same tier as players. Its not just me. Bill Simmons ranked Dr. J 16th in his book. He's recently said he would rank Dirk for sure in the top 18.

Is he a Dirk stan?

[Timmy D for MVP]

Hmmm.... do I have to suffer through younger Dirk. Cause his game has certainly evolved.

I'll take Dirk in this one. I Just like the match-ups he presents better.

[DMAVS41]

You are a stan. Are you going to sit here and act like you aren't all over every Dirk thread like flies on shit, defending your little prince? Lol.

And yes, that type of behavior is considered pathetic by all sane folks.

Bill Simmons ranked Dr. J 16th in his book. He has recently said he'd put Dirk at 18 at worse.

Is he also a Dirk stan?

I'm a fan of Dirk, but it doesn't change the fact that what I'm saying is valid. Comparing someone like Dirk to Duncan is absurd. Comparing Dirk to a guy on a different tier like Doc, Hondo, or Baylor is fine because they are all on the same tier as players.

[StateOfMind12]

Dr. J, unless you are ignoring his ABA years which would be stupid since the ABA was just as competitive and talented as the NBA back when he played for the ABA.

I love Dirk and I almost always defend him from all his moronic critics but he is no Dr. J.

[LJJ]

Bill Simmons ranked Dr. J 16th in his book. He has recently said he'd put Dirk at 18 at worse.

Is he also a Dirk stan?

I'm a fan of Dirk, but it doesn't change the fact that what I'm saying is valid. Comparing someone like Dirk to Duncan is absurd. Comparing Dirk to a guy on a different tier like Doc, Hondo, or Baylor is fine because they are all on the same tier as players.

How many lists from respectable sources do you see that have Nowitzki ranked over Doc? If someone is rated better every time, saying he is flat out better is justified.



Let's face it. Compared to his peers: Doc was widely considered to be the second best player of the 70s. Dirk is somewhere down on that peers list, well behind Duncan, Shaq, Kobe. Dirk is a distant fourth at the very best and could be argued to be quite a bit lower. And it's not like the 00s was a strong generation.

[allball]

Doc

[DMAVS41]

How many lists from respectable sources do you see that have Nowitzki ranked over Doc? If someone is rated better every time, saying he is flat out better is justified.



Let's face it. Compared to his peers: Doc was widely considered to be the second best player of the 70s. Dirk is somewhere down on that peers list, well behind Duncan, Shaq, Kobe. Dirk is a distant fourth at the very best and could be argued to be quite a bit lower. And it's not like the 00s was a strong generation.

And Doc is definitely behind Kareem, Bird, and Magic....and he should be behind Moses on most lists as well. And Hondo is over Dr. J on a lot of lists as well.

There are certain tiers of players....then its just opinion. Especially after seeing them play....there is just nothing wrong with saying you'd rather have Dirk than Doc.

Again...is Simmons a Dirk stan? Its opinion. Not fact.

[LJJ]

Let's face it. Compared to his peers: Doc was widely considered to be the second best player of the 70s.


And Doc is definitely behind Kareem, Bird, and Magic....and he should be behind Moses on most lists as well. And Hondo is over Dr. J on a lot of lists as well.

He's not ranked behind Bird and Magic and Moses in the 70s. You are insane.

[Digital Lee]

u gotta go with the doc

[kenny817]

fixed.

No hate, but Dirk Nowitzki doesn't sell tickets.

I pay my money to go watch Dirk play...its been that way for 13 years

You do realize that every game since like '01 the Mavs have sold out the AAC right??

[DMAVS41]

He's not ranked behind Bird and Magic and Moses in the 70s. You are insane.

Did I say the 70's? I meant all time. I doesn't matter what era. The game of basketball was in shambles in the 70's.

They are on the same tier as players. Its a legit question. Objectively there is very little to distinguish between the two. You'd have to get into very subjective areas....as you are...to claim one is definitely better than the other.

Playoff averages:

26/10/3 Dirk

24/9/4 Doc

When you adjust for pace and league averages....Dirk's numbers are actually even better.

They will end up with similar longevity as well. Just in the same tier....kind of obvious at this point.

[blablabla]

I love Dirk but come on DR.J and it's not that close

[LJJ]

Did I say the 70's? I meant all time. I doesn't matter what era. The game of basketball was in shambles in the 70's.

They are on the same tier as players. Its a legit question. Objectively there is very little to distinguish between the two. You'd have to get into very subjective areas....as you are...to claim one is definitely better than the other.

Lol @ totally disregarding the 70s, but acting like the 00s is hot shit.

It's not subjective. Over the course of a decade of hoops Julius Erving was the second best player compared to his piers. Over the course of a decade of hoops Nowitzki was 4th at best, but could be argued outside of the top 5 as well.

These statements are not that subjective. These are wholly reasonable statements that would be widely adopted by most experts and you know it. Anyone who doesn't recognize the significant difference in the status of these players here must be stan. There is a huge difference between 2nd best and maybe distantly 4th best.

[DMAVS41]

Lol @ totally disregarding the 70s, but acting like the 00s is hot shit.

It's not subjective. Over the course of a decade of hoops Julius Erving was the second best player compared to his piers. Over the course of a decade of hoops Nowitzki was 4th at best, but could be argued outside of the top 5 as well.

These statements are not that subjective. These are wholly reasonable statements that would be widely adopted by most experts and you know it. Anyone who doesn't recognize the significant difference in the status of these players here must be stan. There is a huge difference between 2nd best and maybe distantly 4th best.

And if Dr. J had played in this era he'd be at best 4th as well. Do you think Doc was better than Duncan, Shaq, or Kobe? Please answer.

Do you not understand how retarded your stance is when Doc himself would be at best 4th in the 00's.

And somehow Dirk has more MVP award shares....but Doc was thought of as the better player compared to his peers? Hmmmmmmm.

[LJJ]

And if Dr. J had played in this era he'd be at best 4th as well. Do you think Doc was better than Duncan, Shaq, or Kobe? Please answer.

Do you not understand how retarded your stance is when Doc himself would be at best 4th in the 00's.

You mean if prime Doc was magically transported to the 00s? Like with a DeLorean?

Think about the utter nonsense you foul up this board with. Guy talking about fairytales and I'm the one whose stance is "retarded". :rolleyes:

[LJJ]

And if Dr. J had played in this era he'd be at best 4th as well. Do you think Doc was better than Duncan, Shaq, or Kobe? Please answer.

Do you not understand how retarded your stance is when Doc himself would be at best 4th in the 00's.

And somehow Dirk has more MVP award shares....but Doc was thought of as the better player compared to his peers? Hmmmmmmm.

More MVP award shares? Doc has more MVPs, like 5 ABA MVPs and one in the NBA. How the hell does Dirk have more award shares?

What is this nonsense? Who let a five year old log on ISH? It clearly states in the site user agreement that shit like this is not allowed.

[DMAVS41]

You mean if prime Doc was magically transported to the 00s? Like with a DeLorean?

Think about the utter nonsense you foul up this board with. Guy talking about fairytales and I'm the one whose stance is "retarded". :rolleyes:

What? Its just the simple fact that Doc would be at best 4th in this era. The same thing you were laughing at Dirk about. LOL

You are retarded if you can't figure out that logic fail.

And you want this to be about Doc playing in the weakest era in the history of the game. LOL

[DMAVS41]

Dirk has better playoff averages. Led his team to 11 straight 50 plus win seasons.

Dirk is one of the most clutch players ever.

You don't put that resume together by chance.

[LJJ]

What? Its just the simple fact that Doc would be at best 4th in this era. The same thing you were laughing at Dirk about. LOL

You are retarded if you can't figure out that logic fail.

And you want this to be about Doc playing in the weakest era in the history of the game. LOL

The lovely mentally challenged world of DMAVS.

Where a flawed and in no way provable hypothesis is the exact same thing as a fact.

[DMAVS41]

The lovely mentally challenged world of DMAVS.

Where a flawed and in no way provable hypothesis is the exact same thing as a fact.

What?

Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe are all simply better players. Not debatable. Do you disagree?

Please answer.

My God...you can't be this stupid. You want to say Doc is better because he was the 2nd best player of the 70's....ignoring that its the weakest era in the history of the game....and the highest Doc could have ever been in the 00's would have been 4th.

I really hope you aren't this dumb. Like...really. People just can't be this stupid.

[LJJ]

What?

Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe are all simply better players. Not debatable. Do you disagree?

Please answer.

My God...you can't be this stupid. You want to say Doc is better because he was the 2nd best player of the 70's....ignoring that its the weakest era in the history of the game....and the highest Doc could have ever been in the 00's would have been 4th.

I really hope you aren't this dumb. Like...really. People just can't be this stupid.

*Ooh he disagrees with me, he's stupid, he's dumb*

*Thinks fact means the opposite of what it actually means*


Just another day in the wonderful world of DMAVS.

[D-Wade316]

It's ridiculous how overlooked Dr. J has become. :facepalm

[ralph_i_el]

Dirk. German engineering

[DMAVS41]

*Ooh he disagrees with me, he's stupid, he's dumb*

*Thinks fact means the opposite of what it actually means*


Just another day in the wonderful world of DMAVS.

So you won't answer because your own words and logic are being used against you.

Sounds about right. You are backed into a corner now and you can't get out unless you admit your statement was wrong or you say Doc was better than Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. LOL

So you still want to go down this path? That Doc is better than Dirk because Dirk was only the 4th or 5th best player of the 00's?
:no:

[bizil]

I think I would have to pick Doc, even though u could argue Dirk. Doc at his peak was arguably the premier slasher EVER at the SF position. He had those big ass hands that make him more unique in his own way than other primo slashers like Bron, Nique, and King at SF. Doc was also a very good maybe even great rebounder at the SF position. Doc was also a very good defender too. The funny thing is both of these guys revolutionized their positions big time. I just think Doc was just as much of an alpha dog as Dirk and is very underrated in terms of his all around play.

And as many have stated, Dr. J transcended the sport and was THE MAJOR box office attraction in the L until Bird and Magic joined him. Even when Bird and Magic initially came in the L, the NBA was focusing on a three headed marketing monster in Doc, Bird, and Magic. The only drawback was Doc was at the tailend of his prime once the NBA really got the marketing ball rolling. Sure the NFL is the premier sport in terms of popularity in the USA. But usually, the most popular athletes who have the best marketing are the bball players. Dr. J was THE GUY who gave the NBA the look to the future in those terms. He's arguably the best template u can have in terms of being an ambassador for a major sports league.

[LJJ]

So you won't answer because your own words and logic are being used against you.

Sounds about right. You are backed into a corner now and you can't get out unless you admit your statement was wrong or you say Doc was better than Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. LOL

So you still want to go down this path? That Doc is better than Dirk because Dirk was only the 4th or 5th best player of the 00's?
:no:

"Backed into a corner"?! :roll:

You are far too mentally challenged to back me into a corner. Especially with logic. You don't even know what fact means kid, gtfo.


And yes, my original assessment still stands. Compared to his peers, Erving was clearly better than Dirk. Clearly.

[DMAVS41]

"Backed into a corner"?! :roll:

You are far too mentally challenged to back me into a corner. Especially with logic. You don't even know what fact means kid, gtfo.


And yes, my original assessment still stands. Compared to his peers, Erving was clearly better than Dirk. Clearly.

And Doc's peers in the 70's were worse. How can you not see the difference?

That is a fact. Of course you want to use the "vs peers" in the 70's argument....its literally the worst decade of basketball in history.

The "facts"...according to your logic of people ranking players...is that Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe are definitively and clearly better than Doc. Right? You said that is how you make the distinction of clearly and definitively.

So at best Doc would be the 4th best player of this era.

And of course we haven't even gotten into the inflated stats of the ABA as well.

That is why you'll see a lot of the objective measures actually favor Dirk in this comparison. But we won't mention that either....LOL

[LJJ]

And Doc's peers in the 70's were worse. How can you not see the difference?

That is a fact. Of course you want to use the "vs peers" in the 70's argument....its literally the worst decade of basketball in history.

The "facts"...according to your logic of people ranking players...is that Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe are definitively and clearly better than Doc. Right? You said that is how you make the distinction of clearly and definitively.

So at best Doc would be the 4th best player of this era.

And of course we haven't even gotten into the inflated stats of the ABA as well.

That is why you'll see a lot of the objective measures actually favor Dirk in this comparison. But we won't mention that either....LOL

You can use one at a time.

The "consensus" ranking argument. In which case Erving is clearly better than Dirk. (not a fan of this personally, but since you brought it in the discussion)

or the "peers" argument. In which case Erving is clearly better than Dirk.


They don't fully reinforce one another, because they are based on completely different parameters. :facepalm Shocking that basic things like these need to be explained. But it doesn't matter because no matter which way you go around it, Doc is seen as better than Dirk. So this helps your argument in which way? By unwittingly colluding unrelated things? "Lol".

[DMAVS41]

You can use one at a time.

The "consensus" ranking argument. In which case Erving is clearly better than Dirk. (not a fan of this personally, but since you brought it in the discussion)

or the "peers" argument. In which case Erving is clearly better than Dirk.


They don't fully reinforce one another, because they are based on completely different parameters. :facepalm Shocking that basic things like these need to be explained.

Its not being explained. The peers argument doesn't work simply because of the completely different strength of eras.

Again...you are literally using by far the worst decade of basketball in this case. Its a joke.

And most lists were done before the last couple years in which Dirk has moved up tremendously.

Again...Simmons now ranks Dr. J 16th and Dirk at worst at 18th. When two guys are that close its now absurd to rank one over the other.

You never answered. Is Simmons a Dirk stan?

If you want to talk about things like selling tickets or exciting plays and stuff that isn't about the better "basketball player"...then that is a different discussion.

If this is an objective discussion about these two guys on the court....there simply isn't any evidence to suggest that the outcome is clear and definitive.

[LJJ]

Its not being explained. The peers argument doesn't work simply because of the completely different strength of eras.

Again...you are literally using by far the worst decade of basketball in this case. Its a joke.

And most lists were done before the last couple years in which Dirk has moved up tremendously.

Again...Simmons now ranks Dr. J 16th and Dirk at worst at 18th. When two guys are that close its now absurd to rank one over the other.

You never answered. Is Simmons a Dirk stan?

If you want to talk about things like selling tickets or exciting plays and stuff that isn't about the better "basketball player"...then that is a different discussion.

If this is an objective discussion about these two guys on the court....there simply isn't any evidence to suggest that the outcome is clear and definitive.

You presented one perfectly viable piece of evidence. The "consensus ranking" evidence. Which Erving wins.

I provided the perfectly viable peers argument.


What's left? Both of these arguments are far, far superior to the "but but, Bill Simmons....." argument.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

:oldlol: at people actually debating this.

[DMAVS41]

You presented one perfectly viable piece of evidence. The "consensus ranking" evidence. Which Erving wins.

I provided the perfectly viable peers argument.


What's left? Both of these arguments are far, far superior to the "but but, Bill Simmons....." argument.

What?

There is far more to the rankings than just that. I brought up Simmons because you said anyone that thinks Dirk is in Erving's class as a player is a Dirk stan.

So I asked you if Simmons was also a Dirk stan because he puts him in that class.

If you actually debated this we'd talk about Dirk's superior numbers. We'd talk about Dr. J playing in an inflated stats era in the 70's.

We'd talk about all those objective measures that make this very debatable. But you want it to solely be subjective and you presented a weak and horribly flawed "vs peers" argument that got blown out of the water.

[Whoah10115]

I have Dr. J.



But what tier is John Havlicek? I think he would have to rank higher than Erving on the all-time list.

[DMAVS41]

I have Dr. J.



But what tier is John Havlicek? I think he would have to rank higher than Erving on the all-time list.

Same tier for me. I don't think one should for sure be ahead of the other.

[BarberSchool]

As a Nowitzki fan....

.....I think this thread is disrespectful to both the on-court abilities and off-court life of Julius Erving. The answer may be either of them, but I think Nowitzki simply is not on the same level of personal greatness as Julius Erving is, no matter how kind, intelligent, and incredibly talented Nowitzki is.

[IGotACoolStory]

Starting a franchise?

Dr. J is one of the 5 most important basketball players ever.

[Lord Leoshes]

Its about overall impact. I don't break players down like you do I guess. It leads to poor conclusions in my opinion.

They are on the same tier as players. Its not just me. Bill Simmons ranked Dr. J 16th in his book. He's recently said he would rank Dirk for sure in the top 18.

Is he a Dirk stan?


Then i guess we will agree to disagree.

You also need to remember how physical the game was back then, compared to all the touch fouls that allow soft euros like Dirk to thrive in the league now a days.


PS. Bill Simmons, Jhon Barry, Jalen Rose, Tim Legler, Chris Broussard, & a few other ESPN (so called) analysed are biased & interest driven who wear blinders & only see what they want to see.

[HighFlyer23]

dirt is a f@ggot euro

ill go with the doctor

[Unstop]

come on guys... . hands down...
most of u guys didnt even see him (dr.j) play ,so dont act like fukin experts...
if u have seen those games, u pretty much know it was an "easier" league. level of play was not that high.
anyway i dont compare people who played basketball 35 years ago with people from this era.
btw why do u always start those topics about dirk?
for 2 days a thread about him and garnett, then bird and now dr.j
too much hate going on for such a nice guy and you guys acting like experts...:facepalm

[L.Kizzle]

come on guys... . hands down...
most of u guys didnt even see him (dr.j) play ,so dont act like fukin experts...
if u have seen those games, u pretty much know it was an "easier" league. level of play was not that high.
anyway i dont compare people who played basketball 35 years ago with people from this era.
btw why do u always start those topics about dirk?
for 2 days a thread about him and garnett, then bird and now dr.j
too much hate going on for such a nice guy and you guys acting like experts...:facepalm
Lol at 35 years apart. Dr. J retired in 1987 and Dirk was drafted in 1998. You make is seem like we're talking about George Mikan.

[moaz]

I'll just say flat what 90% of Dr J (my first nba hero btw) voters actually think:
give me the black American player (God's definition of a bball player) and forget the soft white euro trash.

I'll go with Dirk.

[Brickz187]

Julius Erving. Its incredible how disrespected Dr. J is

[Unstop]

Lol at 35 years apart. Dr. J retired in 1987 and Dirk was drafted in 1998. You make is seem like we're talking about George Mikan.

lets see... dr.j started playing basketball in...idk 1973, maybe earlier? sth like that and now we have 2012. im not sure but dr.j played like 18 seasons...im too tired for research, but thats in my mind...
u compare rookie dirk, with senior dr.j and i did it the other way around...so i guess we take the middle of this and its like 25-30 years.

[bizil]

As a Nowitzki fan....

.....I think this thread is disrespectful to both the on-court abilities and off-court life of Julius Erving. The answer may be either of them, but I think Nowitzki simply is not on the same level of personal greatness as Julius Erving is, no matter how kind, intelligent, and incredibly talented Nowitzki is.

Well said! When it comes to a GOAT list or who would you build around, u have to consider impact and revolutionizing the game. As well as Ambassador material. Doc had all of these in SPADES! He was so far ahead of his time! And even when he was outta of his prime so to speak, he was still a premier SF in the L. Doc actually had damn good longevity in terms of retaining his athletic ability and still being an All Star player. But most of all, Doc had the charisma and CLASS to be THE AMBASSADOR of a major sports league. Dirk as great and revolutionary as he is not on that level. Which is okay because he's still a top 5 GOAT PF and most likely a top 30 player of all time. But Doc is an icon who transcended the sport. And like Flair Doc was "The best thing going today" in the NBA. He was the biggest superstar in the L. Kareem may have been the best player. But Doc was a guy who could promote the sport and perform on the court better than anybody at his position and even the entire L minus a Kareem or Moses during his peak years.

[Shepseskaf]

Bill Simmons ranked Dr. J 16th in his book. He has recently said he'd put Dirk at 18 at worse.
If you want credibility on making a point, don't quote Simmons for god's sake.

[Shepseskaf]

This entire thread is an insult to Dr. J. He remains a transformational figure in the history of the sport -- one of the most talented and hard-working players of all-time.

Dirk deserves props, but in the end, he's a 7-footer who can shoot a jump shot and doesn't play any defense. That's it. Nothing transformational at all.

[DMAVS41]

This entire thread is an insult to Dr. J. He remains a transformational figure in the history of the sport -- one of the most talented and hard-working players of all-time.

Dirk deserves props, but in the end, he's a 7-footer who can shoot a jump shot and doesn't play any defense. That's it. Nothing transformational at all.


If you want to make this about figures in sports history and not about actually playing basketball...then that is a totally different argument.

If its just about impact on the court and playing the game...it is absolutely not an insult to put doc and dirk in the same tier as players....because they are.

[Harison]

What kind of question is this?

You take Doc J 10 out of 10 times.

This. Overrating of Dirk continues, comparing to Bird, Dr.J, etc :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

This. Overrating of Dirk continues, comparing to Bird, Dr.J, etc :facepalm

The underrating of Dirk continues. People acting like its absurd to compare him to Dr. J.

Playoff careers:

Dirk 26/10/3 49.4% efg 58.4% TS

Doc 24/9/4 49.9% efg 55.3% TS

Dirk PER 24.7

Doc PER 22.1

That is with Doc's inflated numbers from his ABA days. At best that is a wash in the playoffs.

Dirk has also led his team to 11 straight 50 win seasons (been done 3 other times in NBA history)

1 of 4 players ever to average over 25/10 in the playoffs

Arguably the most clutch player of his era and definitely one of the most clutch players ever

Its not a negative to Doc to be compared to Dirk. Dirk has done historic things in his career now. Dirk transformed one of the worst franchises in all of sports to a consistent winner night in night out.

Dirk has the 6th best win percentage of his era. The five guys in front of him? Duncan, Parker, Manu, Shaq, Kobe....LOL

I could go on and on....

[Odinn]

The underrating of Dirk continues. People acting like its absurd to compare him to Dr. J.

Playoff careers:

Dirk 26/10/3 49.4% efg 58.4% TS

Doc 24/9/4 49.9% efg 55.3% TS

Dirk PER 24.7

Doc PER 22.1

That is with Doc's inflated numbers from his ABA days. At best that is a wash in the playoffs.

Dirk has also led his team to 11 straight 50 win seasons (been done 3 other times in NBA history)

1 of 4 players ever to average over 25/10 in the playoffs

Arguably the most clutch player of his era and definitely one of the most clutch players ever

Its not a negative to Doc to be compared to Dirk. Dirk has done historic things in his career now. Dirk transformed one of the worst franchises in all of sports to a consistent winner night in night out.

Dirk has the 6th best win percentage of his era. The five guys in front of him? Duncan, Parker, Manu, Shaq, Kobe....LOL

I could go on and on....
Enough.

David Robinson was better than Dirk Nowitzki and their playoff averages not even close. David Robinson and Dirk Nowitzki is the closer debate but still you have to give edge to DRob for being a better player.

Doc was the better player. He led his team to the finals 3 times in NBA. You can say his numbers iflated coz of ABA but he won 2 titles and 3 mvp awards in ABA.

In 1980-81 season he won MVP race against early-prime Bird, prime Kareem, prime Moses, prime Gervin.

Erving didn't have a career like Moses who travelled a lot or Kobe who created some major problems. Erving was a true franchise player. He was better than Nowitzki. Accept or not, he was a true playoff performer like Nowitzki. He can be ranked in top 10 ever while Dirk can not.

Just leave this one alone.

[DMAVS41]

Enough.

David Robinson was better than Dirk Nowitzki and their playoff averages not even close. David Robinson and Dirk Nowitzki is the closer debate but still you have to give edge to DRob for being a better player.

Doc was the better player. He led his team to the finals 3 times in NBA. You can say his numbers iflated coz of ABA but he won 2 titles and 3 mvp awards in ABA.

In 1980-81 season he won MVP race against early-prime Bird, prime Kareem, prime Moses, prime Gervin.

Erving didn't have a career like Moses who travelled a lot or Kobe who created some major problems. Erving was a true franchise player. He was better than Nowitzki. Accept or not, he was a true playoff performer like Nowitzki. He can be ranked in top 10 ever while Dirk can not.

Just leave this one alone.

I don't see any reasons to rank Erving in the top 10. You list Erving leading his team to the finals 3 times. Dirk did it twice. And Dirk never played with a guy like Moses....and Moses led that team to the title in 83...not Erving. Erving was closer to Jason Terry than he was to Dirk during his 83 playoff run.

I also don't think David Robinson was the better player either...I think its close, but I don't give the edge to Robinson. I give the edge to the guy I would want on my team going into a tough playoff game or the 4th qtr or crunch time. The guy that has proven what he can do with a team as the best player. Dirk has also remained elite far longer than Robinson. Robinson had something like 8 seasons as an elite player. Dirk is going on number 12. And Dirk is just the better playoff performer...really not debatable. So Dirk was elite longer and stepped up in the playoffs better. And its not like Dirk hasn't had great regular season success....11 straight 50 plus win season...been done only 3 other times in NBA history. Not easy....


There is clearly somewhat of a bias and perception against Dirk still that people are trying to hold onto. For people that just haven't watched Dirk through and through....I understand why it sounds crazy, but it really isn't.

So I am just supposed to ignore what I've seen and numerous objective measures that say this is absolutely a close comparison? Why? Because Dr. J is perceived to be better? Because Dr. J was more influential?

If this is about the better impact on the court. Its debatable. If its about all that other crap then its a different story.

See how absurd that is? You want to be able to say Robinson > Dirk....but I can't say Dirk is in Dr. J's tier as a player. What a joke.

[brandonislegend]

Enough.

David Robinson was better than Dirk Nowitzki and their playoff averages not even close. David Robinson and Dirk Nowitzki is the closer debate but still you have to give edge to DRob for being a better player.

Doc was the better player. He led his team to the finals 3 times in NBA. You can say his numbers iflated coz of ABA but he won 2 titles and 3 mvp awards in ABA.

In 1980-81 season he won MVP race against early-prime Bird, prime Kareem, prime Moses, prime Gervin.

Erving didn't have a career like Moses who travelled a lot or Kobe who created some major problems. Erving was a true franchise player. He was better than Nowitzki. Accept or not, he was a true playoff performer like Nowitzki. He can be ranked in top 10 ever while Dirk can not.

Just leave this one alone.

:no:

[WillC]

Enough.

David Robinson was better than Dirk Nowitzki and their playoff averages not even close. David Robinson and Dirk Nowitzki is the closer debate but still you have to give edge to DRob for being a better player.

Doc was the better player. He led his team to the finals 3 times in NBA. You can say his numbers iflated coz of ABA but he won 2 titles and 3 mvp awards in ABA.

In 1980-81 season he won MVP race against early-prime Bird, prime Kareem, prime Moses, prime Gervin.

Erving didn't have a career like Moses who travelled a lot or Kobe who created some major problems. Erving was a true franchise player. He was better than Nowitzki. Accept or not, he was a true playoff performer like Nowitzki. He can be ranked in top 10 ever while Dirk can not.

Just leave this one alone.

This is the truth.

Unfortunately, kids won't accept it since Julius Erving apparently played in the dark ages (you know, the same dark ages as Bird, Magic, Kareem, etc).

[pauk]

this guy:

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/245/169/dr-j_display_image.jpg

[Unstop]

just end this discussion instead of punishing both players :facepalm

[La Frescobaldi]

Lol @ totally disregarding the 70s, but acting like the 00s is hot shit.

It's not subjective. Over the course of a decade of hoops Julius Erving was the second best player compared to his piers. Over the course of a decade of hoops Nowitzki was 4th at best, but could be argued outside of the top 5 as well.

These statements are not that subjective. These are wholly reasonable statements that would be widely adopted by most experts and you know it. Anyone who doesn't recognize the significant difference in the status of these players here must be stan. There is a huge difference between 2nd best and maybe distantly 4th best.

Where to you get the idea that Erving was widely regarded as 2nd best player for a decade? By who?
I know we're not talking about the 80s so you must mean the 70s.

Doc was the face of the ABA, a terrific competitor who darn near kept the ABA afloat by himself for a couple of years with his amazing Elgin/Connie Hawkins style of basketball....I can say flat out he was the only reason I went to see very many ABA games, because contrary to the revisionist stuff I see on this thread about competition level that league was NEVER comparable to the NBA..... but second best player in the 70s ?

No freaking way.

Without even blinking an eye these guys were always better than Julius Erving. More complete game. And I think J's defense is underrated.

Kareem
un-injured Walton
Chamberlain - yes even in the 70s
Maravich
Walt Frazier
Dave Cowens
John Havlicek

Every one of those guys would have got a spot on a contending 70s NBA team before the Doc.

And a lot of people always resented the fact that Erving went to the ABA when he was drafted by Atlanta - because he threw away the chance to play with Pete Maravich.

There's strong case for ranking guys like Bob McAdoo & Elvin Hayes higher tha Julius Erving on an All-Decade team - like this guy does over at Bleacher Report:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/87828-nba-all-decade-teams-part-three-the-70s

but their game wasn't flashy so I guess that means pure basketball skill isn't part of the discussion.

Erving was exciting, loved watching him play, and when he was on the Sixers he was somethin fierce all right. but these myths have got to stop

[LJJ]

Where to you get the idea that Erving was widely regarded as 2nd best player for a decade? By who?
I know we're not talking about the 80s so you must mean the 70s.

Doc was the face of the ABA, a terrific competitor who darn near kept the ABA afloat by himself for a couple of years with his amazing Elgin/Connie Hawkins style of basketball....I can say flat out he was the only reason I went to see very many ABA games, because contrary to the revisionist stuff I see on this thread about competition level that league was NEVER comparable to the NBA..... but second best player in the 70s ?

No freaking way.

Without even blinking an eye these guys were always better than Julius Erving. More complete game. And I think J's defense is underrated.

Kareem
un-injured Walton
Chamberlain - yes even in the 70s
Maravich
Walt Frazier
Dave Cowens
John Havlicek

Every one of those guys would have got a spot on a contending 70s NBA team before the Doc.

And a lot of people always resented the fact that Erving went to the ABA when he was drafted by Atlanta - because he threw away the chance to play with Pete Maravich.

There's strong case for ranking guys like Bob McAdoo & Elvin Hayes higher tha Julius Erving on an All-Decade team - like this guy does over at Bleacher Report:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/87828-nba-all-decade-teams-part-three-the-70s

but their game wasn't flashy so I guess that means pure basketball skill isn't part of the discussion.

Erving was exciting, loved watching him play, and when he was on the Sixers he was somethin fierce all right. but these myths have got to stop

You know your argument must be broken when the first guy you list is Bill Walton, who did not even play 200 games in the 70s.

Chamberlain who etched only a couple of season well past his prime. Come on, that's like saying Jordan is one of the best players of the 00s.

And Maravich who did not even win one playoff series.



And by the way, the bleacherreport (lol) link you post is strictly about the NBA. So it doesn't factor in anything Erving did in the ABA, which obviously should be factored in if we are talking about basketball and not just the NBA.

[LJJ]

What?

There is far more to the rankings than just that. I brought up Simmons because you said anyone that thinks Dirk is in Erving's class as a player is a Dirk stan.

No, I said YOU are a Dirk stan.

[Shepseskaf]

If you want to make this about figures in sports history and not about actually playing basketball...then that is a totally different argument.

If its just about impact on the court and playing the game...it is absolutely not an insult to put doc and dirk in the same tier as players....because they are.
I can't stand when people who obviously don't know what they're talking about say things like this. You must not be very familiar with Dr. J's history if you think for a second that Dirk is in his class.... he most definitely is not.

I was digging up a host of facts and figures to back up my position, then I remembered that I'm dealing with a crazed nut-rider, so I won't bother.

Do yourself a favor and utilize the Internets to do some research on Dr. J. It might do you some good.

[Shepseskaf]

Kareem
un-injured Walton
Chamberlain - yes even in the 70s
Maravich
Walt Frazier
Dave Cowens
John Havlicek
Clearly, there is some serious insanity going on in this thread. The first instance was to pose this as a serious question.

What credibility does someone have who claims that Walt Frazier, Dave Cowens and John Havlicek were better players than Dr. J? Absolutely none!

Are you crazy?!?

Kareem, I'll give you, but "an uninjured" Walton? What is that crap? You don't get to play "what if" when comparing great players.

:facepalm

[La Frescobaldi]

Clearly, there is some serious insanity going on in this thread. The first instance was to pose this as a serious question.

What credibility does someone have who claims that Walt Frazier, Dave Cowens and John Havlicek were better players than Dr. J? Absolutely none!

Are you crazy?!?

Kareem, I'll give you, but "an uninjured" Walton? What is that crap? You don't get to play "what if" when comparing great players.

:facepalm

Walton during his run to the championship showed what he could do. Erving in the ABA yeah you could make an argument, but like it or not, Walton beat him in those Finals.

You don't have to agree with me about the other guys; I watched all of them play and that was my take at the time, it hasn't changed any since then, and I doubt anything you have to say will change my mind.
Clyde was more skilled, his defense was always better, he had a better outside game and was far more skilled passer; Cowens had more force; Havlicek in many ways was the NBA for much of the 70s, Kareem doesn't need any help.

I ain't bashing Doc in any way - loved the guy. But it is what it is.

[La Frescobaldi]

You know your argument must be broken when the first guy you list is Bill Walton, who did not even play 200 games in the 70s.

Chamberlain who etched only a couple of season well past his prime. Come on, that's like saying Jordan is one of the best players of the 00s.

And Maravich who did not even win one playoff series.



And by the way, the bleacherreport (lol) link you post is strictly about the NBA. So it doesn't factor in anything Erving did in the ABA, which obviously should be factored in if we are talking about basketball and not just the NBA.
******************

The first guy I listed was Kareem.

*******************

Walton beat Erving in the Finals.

*******************

Chamberlain played 3 years in the 70s, took the Lakers to the Finals 3 times, led the team to 33 consecutive victories and a ring in '72, and that team, whos' captain was Wilt Chamberlain, is still in the debate for all-time greatest.

*****************
Maravich's playoff record wasn't helped any by Erving avoiding the NBA, was it. And it was hardly Pistol's fault that he went to the expansion Jazz, that all-time NBA mecca of futility.

[PTB Fan]

Dr J has a respectable case as perhaps the best player in the 70's. He was regarded as GOAT in his days. No.. he's not some high flyer. He was a legend.

[Whoah10115]

No reason to bring David Robinson into this. Tho since he's in, let it be said...in their primes, regardless of what is said now, David Robinson is better than Tim Duncan and he's better than Shaq. Blah blah on the rest, David Robinson is better than either.



Now, on Dr. J in the 70's...Pete Maravich is unlikely to be better than him at all, much less definitively better. Bill Walton was injured too often to regularly have been ahead of Erving. Wilt didn't play enough. No way is Dave Cowens considered better than Erving at any point in the 70's.

[DMAVS41]

I can't stand when people who obviously don't know what they're talking about say things like this. You must not be very familiar with Dr. J's history if you think for a second that Dirk is in his class.... he most definitely is not.

I was digging up a host of facts and figures to back up my position, then I remembered that I'm dealing with a crazed nut-rider, so I won't bother.

Do yourself a favor and utilize the Internets to do some research on Dr. J. It might do you some good.

This post is the problem. There are no facts and figures that will objectively make it clear that Dr. J was the better player. You have now realized this and resorted to calling me names because that is all you can do.

When I post things like playoff averages, regular season success, numbers adjusted for pace and league averages, clutch ability...etc. You and others expect us to just ignore it all because you say:

"Its not even close"..."we can't give you anything really to support that"...."but trust me..it isn't"

Then you will call somebody a name and say you are done. Then come back later and repeat the process.

And this really isn't so much about Dr. J. Its about Dirk. Dirk is now in a class of player that most people do not realize. He has done more than enough at this point to be in the Hondo, Doc, Baylor category as a player.

Hell, I watched Moses his entire career and I'd probably rather have Dirk than Moses.....but I'll never say things like: "it's not close"

At what point do we allow some of the current generation of players to get their credit? Do we have to pretend that Lebron isn't a better player than Dr. J as well? How far does this crap go?

[Bigsmoke]

they are so different.

both of them won an NBA Championship so picking either would be the right answer to build a franchise with i guess. :confusedshrug:

[Shepseskaf]

Walton during his run to the championship showed what he could do. Erving in the ABA yeah you could make an argument, but like it or not, Walton beat him in those Finals.

You don't have to agree with me about the other guys; I watched all of them play and that was my take at the time, it hasn't changed any since then, and I doubt anything you have to say will change my mind.
Clyde was more skilled, his defense was always better, he had a better outside game and was far more skilled passer; Cowens had more force; Havlicek in many ways was the NBA for much of the 70s, Kareem doesn't need any help.

I ain't bashing Doc in any way - loved the guy. But it is what it is.
Sorry dude, I don't care how you rationalize it but neither Clyde, nor Cowens, nor Havlicek were better players than Dr. J.

Walton's career was truncated by injuries. Unfortunate, but that's life. If you're building a franchise, which was the OP's original question, then you can't go with him over The Doc.

[Shepseskaf]

This post is the problem. There are no facts and figures that will objectively make it clear that Dr. J was the better player. You have now realized this and resorted to calling me names because that is all you can do.
Whatever, dude. I'll just say that most knowledgeable bb historians rate Dr. J notches above Dirk. I'll leave it at that.

[DMAVS41]

Whatever, dude. I'll just say that most knowledgeable bb historians rate Dr. J notches above Dirk. I'll leave it at that.

They used to...and rightfully so. But the last 2 or 3 years have changed a lot...haven't they?

Look what Dirk's career has now been. Its now there or at the very least closely approaching the next tier of players.

Baylor, Hondo, Doc, Pettit, Moses....Dirk is getting very close to that tier if he isn't already there.

So much of this is subjective when you get to a certain point. Like I said....people rank differently. They might factor in off court impact or revolutionary playing styles....or ability to sell tickets...or excitement...etc.

I feel like that is a different discussion. I am solely coming from an "ability to play basketball" and what "impact" on the court these guys had.

And I don't see any evidence to put Dr. J on a different tier than Dirk at this point. Especially with Dirk still going strong in his 14th year.

[Shepseskaf]

And I don't see any evidence to put Dr. J on a different tier than Dirk at this point. Especially with Dirk still going strong in his 14th year.
Although this debate has devolved into a squabble over stats, the original question was which player do you take if you're building a franchise.

Any GM worth a damn will tell you that he would rather start out with an athletic, versatile wing player who can do a number of things than a specialist.

As good as Dirk is, and I agree with you that his resume is getting better, he's essentially a specialist -- possibly the best shooting big man in history. Dirk doesn't really do anything else but score -- he doesn't defend well, he doesn't rebound particularly well for his position, and he doesn't have an effective post game.

In short, you have to build a team around Dirk's weaknesses. For example, you have to have a strong defensive center to cover the basket (Chandler, last year), and a strong help defender (Marion).

Dr. J could actually play some defense, could handle the ball well, rebounded fairly well for his position, and obviously could score in bunches.

This is my last post on this, and I understand that these kinds of debates are very subjective, but if I'm starting a team the better choice would be The Doc.

[DMAVS41]

Although this debate has devolved into a squabble over stats, the original question was which player do you take if you're building a franchise.

Any GM worth a damn will tell you that he would rather start out with an athletic, versatile wing player who can do a number of things than a specialist.

As good as Dirk is, and I agree with you that his resume is getting better, he's essentially a specialist -- possibly the best shooting big man in history. Dirk doesn't really do anything else but score -- he doesn't defend well, he doesn't rebound particularly well for his position, and he doesn't have an effective post game.

In short, you have to build a team around Dirk's weaknesses. For example, you have to have a strong defensive center to cover the basket (Chandler, last year), and a strong help defender (Marion).

Dr. J could actually play some defense, could handle the ball well, rebounded fairly well for his position, and obviously could score in bunches.

This is my post post on this, and I understand that these kinds of debates are very subjective, but if I'm starting a team the better choice would be The Doc.

I agree with some of this. Other parts not so much. Dirk is far more than a specialist. He averages over 10 boards a game for his career in the playoffs. He is a far better passer and defender that he gets credit for. He also is so unique that his mere presence on the floor add so much to an offense.

Agree to disagree. I think you labeling Dirk as merely a "specialist" is where our fundamental disagreement stems from.

And on a side note...If Dirk ever had a guy like Moses in 83 on a very good team to begin with...that team would easily win the title as well.

Moses put up 26/16/2 54% fg 59% TS in his playoff run
Dr. J put up 18/8/2 45% 50%TS fg in his playoff run

[PTB Fan]

As much as i love Dirk, who's been for few years my favorite player in the NBA for whom i hoped that he'd win a title.. and he eventually did with a great playoff run, i just can't see him ranked higher than a guy of Dr J's caliber.

The only aspect in which he's clearly better is shooting. Even scoring, the part of the game where Dirk excels is arguable because Dr J scored in high volume and on impressive efficiency too.

Everything else.. it nearly all favors the Doctor. Let's not get started with the career, impact on the game and court the Doc had.. popularizing the league as well. If anything, Dr J's place is up in the discussion of the greatest basketball player where he's been overlooked in recent years for some reasons.

Dirk's a great player. Top 25 of all time, if not better. However, ranking him over a guy like Dr J is too much. He's overachieved quite a lot with his ranking for a guy who's been only dominant on side of the court.

[Suckafree]

I honestly don't believe this gap is as big as some of you are making it seem.

Gun to my head, I probably take Dr.J, but theres absolutely nothing wrong with taking Dirk

[rodman91]

The one who won NBA championship as best man on his team.

[MavAlbert]

Although this debate has devolved into a squabble over stats, the original question was which player do you take if you're building a franchise.

Any GM worth a damn will tell you that he would rather start out with an athletic, versatile wing player who can do a number of things than a specialist.

As good as Dirk is, and I agree with you that his resume is getting better, he's essentially a specialist -- possibly the best shooting big man in history. Dirk doesn't really do anything else but score -- he doesn't defend well, he doesn't rebound particularly well for his position, and he doesn't have an effective post game.

In short, you have to build a team around Dirk's weaknesses. For example, you have to have a strong defensive center to cover the basket (Chandler, last year), and a strong help defender (Marion).

Dr. J could actually play some defense, could handle the ball well, rebounded fairly well for his position, and obviously could score in bunches.

This is my last post on this, and I understand that these kinds of debates are very subjective, but if I'm starting a team the better choice would be The Doc.


you dont watch much basketball do you?

[raiderfan19]

24/7/4 in his prime or 25/10/3. Not all that hard

[raiderfan19]

24/7/4 in his prime or 25/10/3. Not all that hard
Now onto my actual argument. For the people who say dirk was only better at shooting(thats not true but I'll worry about that later) what was doc better at besides dunking? If you aren't giving dirk credit for boarding because he's bigger, you can't give doc passing or athleticism because those are more expected of wings than 4s.

[aau]

tiers of tears

.

kareem . . . . wilt

kobe . . . . .. jordan

magic . . . .. oscar

erving . . . .. bird

duncan . . .. wait ,,,,,, wait

.

wait for it

.

.

.

dirk

[winnnaz]

The one who won NBA championship as best man on his team.
Dr would have if he spent his whole career there

[La Frescobaldi]

Sorry dude, I don't care how you rationalize it but neither Clyde, nor Cowens, nor Havlicek were better players than Dr. J.

Walton's career was truncated by injuries. Unfortunate, but that's life. If you're building a franchise, which was the OP's original question, then you can't go with him over The Doc.

****************************

Maybe I'm the only guy on this thread that actually remembers the 70s.

Because in the 70s Julius Erving was always considered to be a driver, a slasher who didn't play any defense, who couldn't rebound against NBA level players, who made his name in the ABA....

But OK, that's a long time ago, so I looked up some of the old Sports Illustrated articles. Just to see if my memory was playing tricks.

I'm all good there though...

**********************************************
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1094767/1/index.htm

"At the time of the merger Erving had led the then New York Nets to two ABA championships in three years and was considered the best and most exciting player in the game. Certainly his performance in the 1976 finals against the Denver Nuggets gave evidence of that. On defense, he helped contain the spectacular David Thompson, three times holding him below his season's average of 26.0. And he averaged 37.7 points in six games against the best defensive forward in either league, Bobby Jones.......

"Erving's dazzling talent—his game takeovers, his jukes and jams and especially his astonishing leaping, diving, midair stuff—was underscored by a rare ability to inspire his teammates to levels they couldn't achieve on their own.....
"But in the NBA, Erving has never done this. In two years he has taken Philadelphia to the finals and semifinals. But this season, after a personnel shakeup in which McGinnis and Free were replaced by Jones and others, thus, in Pat Williams' words, "altering the texture, restructuring the team in Julius' image," the 76ers look as if they won't even make it to the semis....

{now, this was after Bill Walton's Blazer team had destroyed the Sixers in the Finals - that crushing loss completely deflated Julius Erving but I guess I'm the only guy who watched the League back then ~ La Fres}

"Erving is just not the same player he was in the ABA. A comparison of his last two years with the Nets and his first two years in Philadelphia shows that Dr. J had 1,507 more points, 663 more rebounds, 310 more free throws, 300 more assists, 107 more blocked shots and 99 more steals for the Nets. His five-year ABA scoring average of 28.5 is almost eight full points above his NBA average. Erving's 49% field-goal and 75% free-throw figures this season are nearly the lowest of his career....


"First and foremost, at its best, Dr. J's game has always been one of refined speed, finesse and creativity and lightning movement in the open court when he elected to come down from the rafters and engage in man-to-man confrontations. What the pros call "breaking down" an opponent is something Erving could and still can do better than anyone.
In the NBA, however, everybody doubles up on him, which is natural, but teams also pack defenders down low, clog the lanes and (sh, keep this a secret now) zone the bejeezus out of the Doctor. This makes it practically impossible for Erving to consistently drive to the hole for the swoop baskets by means of which he developed his Dr. J reputation. In addition, the NBA push-and-shove oxcart defensive philosophy severely cramps Erving's lateral style, turning him into just another jump shooter. And he's not a very good jump shooter.

Then, too, Erving has exhibited other glaring flaws, at least for a certifiable, all-universe player. In Philly he has been only an adequate rebounder. Although he is a good passer, he tends to dribble into traffic too much, breaking the team pattern or not concluding the play, and he sometimes winds up committing himself in the air and throwing the ball away. This has resulted in several eight- and nine-turnover horror shows.

It is on defense, however, that Dr. J is most vulnerable. His proclivity for becoming trapped in switches and for losing his own man while helping out others has caused him to be embarrassed by some very strange customers. Chicago's Ollie Johnson and Denver's Bob Wilkerson had big nights against Dr. J. Boston's Curtis Rowe, at the time averaging all of three points, rejuvenated his career with a midseason 17-point miracle, many of the points coming against Erving. And in a game in the Spectrum, Kansas City's Bob Nash came off the bench to score 18 of his 24 points against Erving, after which the Philadelphia press took off the gloves.

" Erving's defense seemed to consist of rushing frantically at Nash's waistband," wrote the Inquirer's Bill Livingston, "while the King [Nash] leaped on the baseline for unencumbered jumpers after which the Doctor would shout, in an excited gabble, 'Hey!' "

Erving admits to diminished capabilities in some areas. "I don't think I'm as good a rebounder as I was—but that comes from playing with two huge centers and being our shortest forward," he says. "I'm guilty of thinking they're going to get the board, then somebody on the other team gets it. I also don't gamble as much on the D. I don't have the steals and blocks I once did. But we have other people doing those jobs. Bobby Jones led Denver in steals and blocks, but now look. He can't do that here.

"On defense, let me point out that a player's weakness shows up mostly when there is no team defensive concept. Again, Bobby guards the people I guarded last year. When they got 25 off me, it was a headline. When it happens to Jones, he's had a 'bad night.' "

"Says one of Erving's staunchest fans, who also happens to be an NBA coach, "I don't know if it's the big contract, plain disgust, concern about his longevity or just that he's burnt out and can't do it nightly anymore, but Dr. J is not the player we once knew. The electricity isn't there. The truth is that—except for a few playoff games in '77 and the all-star games—the guy has been on vacation for three years. Somebody else has been masquerading as No. 6. On a consistent basis Julius has played to about 40%, tops, of the ability he showed in the ABA."

*************************************
or this, from an article when he first went to Philly...........

At the very root of the Philadelphia problem, though, is Erving, whose drive-for-the-hole style of play has been taken away by the NBA's clogging defenses down the middle. Otherwise, Dr. J remains an inconsistent jump shooter, an erratic passer and the kind of finesse-conscious defensive player who last week, for instance, was victimized by both Thompson and John Drew of Atlanta.

***********************************


Now when you consider the fact that Clyde went to 3 Finals in 4 years, Chamberlain went to 3 Finals in 4 years, Kareem was easily the player of the 70s decade, Havlicek & Cowens won 2 rings........ back then, all those guys rated considerably higher than Erving.

Sorry brother. In the '70s Dr. J was widely considered a huge flop, the symbol of the weakness of the ABA compared to The League.

He was a high-flying, exciting player, definitely sold lots tickets, I loved him like crazy.

But those 83 76ers had Moses Malone trampling the league & Bobby Jones coming off the bench for terrific sacrifices. And Billy C was coaching. Erving was their inspiration all right.... like one of my old friends said at the time, when we were watching that '83 playoffs: "they are all saying "win one for Old Doc" , but what they really mean is "because he could never get one himself."

Y'all got nostalgia for that dramatic showy game and the dunk from the free throw line stuff. Erving ain't in no "higher tier" than Dirk Nowitzki.

[BrooklynZoo]

ill go with dirk, doctor j has to be around 60 years old:facepalm

[BrooklynZoo]

but really whats the point in asking this question on a forum where 95% of the posters have never seen one of them play?

yet, if you didnt know that (and i havent read any of the responses), theyll all try to sound like they have

[La Frescobaldi]

but really whats the point in asking this question on a forum where 95% of the posters have never seen one of them play?

yet, if you didnt know that (and i havent read any of the responses), theyll all try to sound like they have

exactly

[DMAVS41]

To the above great post.

Yep. And in terms of fairness, things like the above could essentially be written about every player ever. Everyone has weaknesses etc....certainly Dirk did/does.

However, great post and thank you for those finds. Dr. J was not the player a lot of people that either weren't around for him or have chosen to revise history make him out to be.

He was a great player. Truly great. He did amazing things and he was a winner. He did have his career somewhat enhanced by his inflated ABA numbers that you simply have to take into context. He was merely a good player for his 83 championship run. Moses was great...Doc was good.

Like I said before, Doc was closer to the Jason Terry level than the Dirk level in the 83 playoffs.

What has always and continues to piss me off is that people just seem to think every player that played before 1990 had no weaknesses and they were all these complete players.

You hear people in this thread call Dirk just a specialist and refer to Dr. J as complete. LOL...neither is true. I'll say it again...you don't average 26/10/3 in an 11 year playoff career by accident. You don't do that by being a specialist. Carmelo is a specialist that plays no defense. Dirk is a well rounded player that does a lot of things he gets no credit for. He's never been a great defender, but since the 05 season he's definitely been fine. He's actually an above average man to man defender and an excellent defensive rebounder. But whats the point? Dr. J had his flaws as well and acting like he didn't is silly.

The ABA wasn't the NBA....it may have had great talent, but the way the game was played just led to absurd stats. And even if you don't put those numbers into context, Dirk still has comparable numbers and has better playoff numbers.

So what are the objective reasons as to why Dr. J is on a higher tier than Dirk? There really aren't any.

That is why you see the following arguments:

"Dr. J is a legend both on and off the court"

"Dr. J revolutionized the game"

"He just is...you are a moron if you don't think that"

"He was better against his peers in the 70's"...my favorite one because its really not even true, and that decade makes up the worst decade in the history of professional basketball...with two different leagues...LOL


Those are the arguments you hear. Not good enough.

[bizil]

Love Dirk and everything. But Dr. J is on another level. Doc's peak value had him at worst the second or third best player of his era. I feel Kareem was the man, but then Doc and Moses were right there. For the 2000s era, Dirk is in the top 10, but he was NEVER regarded as high as Doc was for his. Not a knock at all. But those who say Dr. J was overrated are INSANE! Those Sixer teams Doc had from DAY ONE were usually stacked. Doc was getting those teams to the Finals BEFORE Moses even got there. Once Moses got there, Doc had one of the top three players of his era. So if anything, Doc deferred some to Moses cause Moses was that damn good. And u had a beast in Toney as well.

So Doc DIDN'T have to be ABA Doc or even late 70's Doc. He still had a great season and was the All Star MVP the year they won the gold. When u factor ABA Doc and NBA Doc together (which is the way u judge) Dirk was NEVER on Doc's level career wise. Now Dirk still has some good bball left in him. And could accumulate major league resume building shit. But Doc has over 30,000 points, four titles, 16 time All Star, 4 MVPs, and was THE FACE OF THE ABA AND NBA!

And yes, revolutionizing a position and being the face of the L counts for a GOAT list. Because IMPACT is a very important ingredient. Even if u feel Dirk and Doc are even in terms of IMPACT on the court, Doc's impact OFF THE COURT is the tie breaker. And as of now, Dirk's resume isn't on Doc's level to begin with. Even though Barry Bonds was a better all around player than Babe Ruth and has the HR record, Ruth is still considered the greatest of all time by many. It's due if anything to the MYSTIQUE Ruth has. Dr. J has the MYSTIQUE bball wise. And to have that MYSTIQUE, u have to be epic and great at what u do. And have a certain charisma or flair on top of it. As revolutionary a PF as Dirk is, he doesn't have that IT factor that Doc has.

[DMAVS41]

Love Dirk and everything. But Dr. J is on another level. Doc's peak value had him at worst the second or third best player of his era. I feel Kareem was the man, but then Doc and Moses were right there. For the 2000s era, Dirk is in the top 10, but he was NEVER regarded as high as Doc was for his. Not a knock at all. But those who say Dr. J was overrated are INSANE! Those Sixer teams Doc had from DAY ONE were usually stacked. Doc was getting those teams to the Finals BEFORE Moses even got there. Once Moses got there, Doc had one of the top three players of his era. So if anything, Doc deferred some to Moses cause Moses was that damn good. And u had a beast in Toney as well.

So Doc DIDN'T have to be ABA Doc or even late 70's Doc. He still had a great season and was the All Star MVP the year they won the gold. When u factor ABA Doc and NBA Doc together (which is the way u judge) Dirk was NEVER on Doc's level career wise. Now Dirk still has some good bball left in him. And could accumulate major league resume building shit. But Doc has over 30,000 points, four titles, 16 time All Star, 4 MVPs, and was THE FACE OF THE ABA AND NBA!

And yes, revolutionizing a position and being the face of the L counts for a GOAT list. Because IMPACT is a very important ingredient. Even if u feel Dirk and Doc are even in terms of IMPACT on the court, Doc's impact OFF THE COURT is the tie breaker. And as of now, Dirk's resume isn't on Doc's level to begin with. Even though Barry Bonds was a better all around player than Babe Ruth and has the HR record, Ruth is still considered the greatest of all time by many. It's due if anything to the MYSTIQUE Ruth has. Dr. J has the MYSTIQUE bball wise. And to have that MYSTIQUE, u have to be epic and great at what u do. And have a certain charisma or flair on top of it. As revolutionary a PF as Dirk is, he doesn't have that IT factor that Doc has.

I agree with some of this...disagree with some.

But your part about the off court stuff is exactly my point. That is a different conversation when you start factoring in extremely subjective areas like mystique and excitement...etc. That just means nothing tome in terms of evaluating impact and ability to play.

Dirk is at worst the 5th best player of the 00's. The highest Doc could have been was 4th if he played in the 00's. I have no idea why you people think this vs peers argument is a sound one. Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe are all higher than Doc on any list. So that places Doc at best 4th and he'd be battling KG and Dirk for that 4th spot. So the vs peers thing does not work.

Nobody is saying Dr. J is over-rated really. We are saying Dirk is under-rated if you think he's not on the same tier as Doc.

[inclinerator]

dirk

[La Frescobaldi]

Love Dirk and everything. But Dr. J is on another level. Doc's peak value had him at worst the second or third best player of his era. I feel Kareem was the man, but then Doc and Moses were right there. For the 2000s era, Dirk is in the top 10, but he was NEVER regarded as high as Doc was for his. Not a knock at all. But those who say Dr. J was overrated are INSANE! Those Sixer teams Doc had from DAY ONE were usually stacked. Doc was getting those teams to the Finals BEFORE Moses even got there. Once Moses got there, Doc had one of the top three players of his era. So if anything, Doc deferred some to Moses cause Moses was that damn good. And u had a beast in Toney as well.

So Doc DIDN'T have to be ABA Doc or even late 70's Doc. He still had a great season and was the All Star MVP the year they won the gold. When u factor ABA Doc and NBA Doc together (which is the way u judge) Dirk was NEVER on Doc's level career wise. Now Dirk still has some good bball left in him. And could accumulate major league resume building shit. But Doc has over 30,000 points, four titles, 16 time All Star, 4 MVPs, and was THE FACE OF THE ABA AND NBA!

And yes, revolutionizing a position and being the face of the L counts for a GOAT list. Because IMPACT is a very important ingredient. Even if u feel Dirk and Doc are even in terms of IMPACT on the court, Doc's impact OFF THE COURT is the tie breaker. And as of now, Dirk's resume isn't on Doc's level to begin with. Even though Barry Bonds was a better all around player than Babe Ruth and has the HR record, Ruth is still considered the greatest of all time by many. It's due if anything to the MYSTIQUE Ruth has. Dr. J has the MYSTIQUE bball wise. And to have that MYSTIQUE, u have to be epic and great at what u do. And have a certain charisma or flair on top of it. As revolutionary a PF as Dirk is, he doesn't have that IT factor that Doc has.

You're comparing Barry Bonds to Babe Ruth? Seriously?? Barry Bonds seriously a better all round player than Babe Ruth? Have you ever looked at Ruth's career?
Barry Bonds???? who has strange records like this one?
Oldest player (age 38) to win the National League batting title (.370) for the first time, 2002

Wonder exactly how he suddenly became a better hitter? I mean really now... that's the guy was found guilty of obstruction of justice, for hiding his juicer life. Why not let Ruth take the same stuff Bonds was taking and then see how they compare? Oh wait, that's the whole point of steroids, to give unfair advantage. It's called cheating.

Babe Ruth's pitching record alone is amazing
won 94 lost 46 winning percentage .671 with an ERA of 2.28

When did Barry Bonds - the guy you think was a all-round better player than Babe Ruth - when did he ever pitch like that?

Ruth has been named the greatest baseball player of all time in various surveys and rankings. In 1998, The Sporting News ranked him number one on the list of "Baseball's 100 Greatest Players".[6]

In 1999, baseball fans named Ruth to the Major League Baseball All-Century Team. {which Bonds missed entirely}
In 1969, he was named baseball's Greatest Player Ever in a ballot commemorating the 100th anniversary of professional baseball. In 1993, the Associated Press reported that Muhammad Ali was tied with Babe Ruth as the most recognized athletes in America.

In a 1999 ESPN poll, he was ranked as the third-greatest U.S. athlete of the century, behind Michael Jordan and Ali.[4]


Dude, Babe Ruth has only 1 competitor in professional sports and that's Wilt Chamberlain. Sorry but that's waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy off.


Barry Bonds? Seriously?

[Whoah10115]

You're comparing Barry Bonds to Babe Ruth? Seriously?? Barry Bonds seriously a better all round player than Babe Ruth? Have you ever looked at Ruth's career?
Barry Bonds???? who has strange records like this one?
Oldest player (age 38) to win the National League batting title (.370) for the first time, 2002

Wonder exactly how he suddenly became a better hitter? I mean really now... that's the guy was found guilty of obstruction of justice, for hiding his juicer life. Why not let Ruth take the same stuff Bonds was taking and then see how they compare? Oh wait, that's the whole point of steroids, to give unfair advantage. It's called cheating.

Babe Ruth's pitching record alone is amazing
won 94 lost 46 winning percentage .671 with an ERA of 2.28

When did Barry Bonds - the guy you think was a all-round better player than Babe Ruth - when did he ever pitch like that?

Ruth has been named the greatest baseball player of all time in various surveys and rankings. In 1998, The Sporting News ranked him number one on the list of "Baseball's 100 Greatest Players".[6]

In 1999, baseball fans named Ruth to the Major League Baseball All-Century Team. {which Bonds missed entirely}
In 1969, he was named baseball's Greatest Player Ever in a ballot commemorating the 100th anniversary of professional baseball. In 1993, the Associated Press reported that Muhammad Ali was tied with Babe Ruth as the most recognized athletes in America.

In a 1999 ESPN poll, he was ranked as the third-greatest U.S. athlete of the century, behind Michael Jordan and Ali.[4]


Dude, Babe Ruth has only 1 competitor in professional sports and that's Wilt Chamberlain. Sorry but that's waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy off.



Barry Bonds? Seriously?




That's a pretty bad way of looking at Bonds. We're talking outside of the steroids. Even looking outside steroids, Bonds would not get past Ruth's mystique. Let's not act like Ruth's MLB wasn't segregated. Ruth was a great pitcher, but Bonds won 8 GG's at LF and that he wasn't a CF doesn't fly, because the GG's are given out for the three best OF's, not the best in each OF position. And Bonds never struck out much, Bonds has 500 SB's, Bonds has the best eye ever.


Not that any of this has anything to do with this thread, but come on now.

[bizil]

You're comparing Barry Bonds to Babe Ruth? Seriously?? Barry Bonds seriously a better all round player than Babe Ruth? Have you ever looked at Ruth's career?
Barry Bonds???? who has strange records like this one?
Oldest player (age 38) to win the National League batting title (.370) for the first time, 2002

Wonder exactly how he suddenly became a better hitter? I mean really now... that's the guy was found guilty of obstruction of justice, for hiding his juicer life. Why not let Ruth take the same stuff Bonds was taking and then see how they compare? Oh wait, that's the whole point of steroids, to give unfair advantage. It's called cheating.

Babe Ruth's pitching record alone is amazing
won 94 lost 46 winning percentage .671 with an ERA of 2.28

When did Barry Bonds - the guy you think was a all-round better player than Babe Ruth - when did he ever pitch like that?

Ruth has been named the greatest baseball player of all time in various surveys and rankings. In 1998, The Sporting News ranked him number one on the list of "Baseball's 100 Greatest Players".[6]

In 1999, baseball fans named Ruth to the Major League Baseball All-Century Team. {which Bonds missed entirely}
In 1969, he was named baseball's Greatest Player Ever in a ballot commemorating the 100th anniversary of professional baseball. In 1993, the Associated Press reported that Muhammad Ali was tied with Babe Ruth as the most recognized athletes in America.

In a 1999 ESPN poll, he was ranked as the third-greatest U.S. athlete of the century, behind Michael Jordan and Ali.[4]


Dude, Babe Ruth has only 1 competitor in professional sports and that's Wilt Chamberlain. Sorry but that's waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyy off.


Barry Bonds? Seriously?

Barry Bonds was five tool player. Along with guys like a Mantle, Mays, Griffey Jr., etc. Ruth WASN'T that kind of player. All around isn't better in all cases. Ruth was so dominant at what he did well that he's considered by many the best of all time. But in the all around sense, he wasn't on the level of a Mantle or Bonds. SO YEAH SERIOUSLY HATER!!!

[bizil]

I agree with some of this...disagree with some.

But your part about the off court stuff is exactly my point. That is a different conversation when you start factoring in extremely subjective areas like mystique and excitement...etc. That just means nothing tome in terms of evaluating impact and ability to play.

Dirk is at worst the 5th best player of the 00's. The highest Doc could have been was 4th if he played in the 00's. I have no idea why you people think this vs peers argument is a sound one. Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe are all higher than Doc on any list. So that places Doc at best 4th and he'd be battling KG and Dirk for that 4th spot. So the vs peers thing does not work.

Nobody is saying Dr. J is over-rated really. We are saying Dirk is under-rated if you think he's not on the same tier as Doc.


Dirk isn't a contender for top 10 GOAT of all time. Dr. J has a case for top 10 GOAT of all time. As of now, I wouldn't put in that group though. I would rank Doc in that 11-15 range with West, The Malone boys, and a Hondo. But for the longest time, Dr. J WAS a top 10 GOAT player. Dirk is more of a top 25-30 player. Dr. J was NEVER that low on the totem pole. He's consensus top 15 GOAT material. Top 15 and top 25-30 ISN'T the same tier.

In terms of the 2000s, u got:

Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Wade
KG
AI
Nash
Kidd

All of these guys have a great case over Dirk. U can't count that title last year because I am talking from 2000-2009 or 2010. As of that point in time, Dirk WASN'T over the guys I named. But he was in the top 10. Dirk won his title in the new decade. When i said 2000s I meant the first decade of the 2000s. So no, Dirk wasn't top 5 of the first decade. Top four in my book is Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, and Lebron. After that u could have Wade, Nash, or KG for number five. Dirk's prestige and rep gained major momentum last year. That's what winning a ring can do for u. Dirk wasn't a lock top 5 GOAT PF until last year. It was arguable. Now I feel Dirk is pretty much a lock top 5 GOAT PF.

And finally IMPACT of the court DOES matter if u are the FACE OF THE LEAGUE! If u are the face of the L, u are arguably or most likely the best player in the L. In other words, Doc was so great that he was worthy of being the FACE OF THE LEAGUE! It's was just like Magic, Bird, MJ, and Shaq. And now its the same with Lebron. That's how great Dr. J was. Dirk was never considered the best player in the L, even though he's been one of the greats and is a former MVP.

[ThaRegul8r]

For crying out loud...

:facepalm

The question is:


who u got:confusedshrug:

Each respondent is being asked who they would pick to build a franchise. Meaning: the answer solely depends on each respondent's preference for team building, what each respondent's ideal team is and which player comes closest to fitting into that ideal, each respondent's philosophy as far as team building and style of play and which player best fits into that, etc.

But somehow, a completely subjective question becomes a pissing contest, as, of course, posters instead of answering the question in accordance with their own individual preference are convinced that their answer is the only acceptable answer, and so have to disparage the other people like some stan or fanboy ("fan" being short for "fanatic," after all) does in support of their favorite player.

Pathetic.

[bizil]

For crying out loud...

:facepalm

The question is:



Each respondent is being asked who they would pick to build a franchise. Meaning: the answer solely depends on each respondent's preference for team building, what each respondent's ideal team is and which player comes closest to fitting into that ideal, each respondent's philosophy as far as team building and style of play and which player best fits into that, etc.

But somehow, a completely subjective question becomes a pissing contest, as, of course, posters instead of answering the question in accordance with their own individual preference are convinced that their answer is the only acceptable answer, and so have to disparage the other people like some stan or fanboy ("fan" being short for "fanatic," after all) does in support of their favorite player.

Pathetic.

Well said! Both of these guys are legends who revolutionized the game. The thing is the play different positions and it can be hard to judge different positions against each other. It's easier to compare bigs to bigs and SF's to SG's. And of course it the EASIEST to compare guys who play the same position. If it was me and I'm starting from scratch, I would choose Doc. In all of my posts I've never demeaned Dirk. And I've even said it's closer than some think.

[Whoah10115]

Jason Kidd is called overrated by people, and I consider finding them and shooting them in the anus.



Jason Kidd is top 5 this decade.



I would rank Dirk ahead of Lebron and Wade, just because he's been an All-Star every year this decade and those two got started almost halfway into the decade (if we're ranking by decade).


Also, I would have to rank Dirk ahead of Paul Pierce, but it's a lot closer than anyone will give credit to. Dirk did it in the West tho and never had injury issues. Plus, with always having a good team around him, he got a chance int he playoffs and never disappointed. I used to call him soft...cuz he was. And he still doesn't play D outside the post (period) but I never got how people said he wasn't clutch or he let his team down...it always impressed me how he got better in the playoffs.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk isn't a contender for top 10 GOAT of all time. Dr. J has a case for top 10 GOAT of all time. As of now, I wouldn't put in that group though. I would rank Doc in that 11-15 range with West, The Malone boys, and a Hondo. But for the longest time, Dr. J WAS a top 10 GOAT player. Dirk is more of a top 25-30 player. Dr. J was NEVER that low on the totem pole. He's consensus top 15 GOAT material. Top 15 and top 25-30 ISN'T the same tier.

In terms of the 2000s, u got:

Kobe
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron
Wade
KG
AI
Nash
Kidd

All of these guys have a great case over Dirk. U can't count that title last year because I am talking from 2000-2009 or 2010. As of that point in time, Dirk WASN'T over the guys I named. But he was in the top 10. Dirk won his title in the new decade. When i said 2000s I meant the first decade of the 2000s. So no, Dirk wasn't top 5 of the first decade. Top four in my book is Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, and Lebron. After that u could have Wade, Nash, or KG for number five. Dirk's prestige and rep gained major momentum last year. That's what winning a ring can do for u. Dirk wasn't a lock top 5 GOAT PF until last year. It was arguable. Now I feel Dirk is pretty much a lock top 5 GOAT PF.

And finally IMPACT of the court DOES matter if u are the FACE OF THE LEAGUE! If u are the face of the L, u are arguably or most likely the best player in the L. In other words, Doc was so great that he was worthy of being the FACE OF THE LEAGUE! It's was just like Magic, Bird, MJ, and Shaq. And now its the same with Lebron. That's how great Dr. J was. Dirk was never considered the best player in the L, even though he's been one of the greats and is a former MVP.


Well, I could not disagree more. AI, Nash, and Kidd have no business being ranked over Dirk by any criteria. Wade and Lebron could some day, but that also applies to Dr. J. My god...why are you people so dense about this? Wade and Lebron and KG could be argued over Dr. J as players as well....and Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan would be for sure.

Dr. J was on top 10 GOAT lists because he played 30 plus years ago. Look how many all time great players have come through since then really. MJ, Magic, Bird, Moses, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe....LOL. Are you really unable to process the difference in playing in the weakest era in basketball history and people creating GOAT lists from 10 plus years ago before 3 sure fire top 10 players of all time came around in Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe.

And why would you want to cut off Dirk's title? Did he not win it? That would be like me only talking about Dr. J's NBA career.....and if we did that Doc would have really no argument for even top 20 all time.

The off court stuff means nothing to me. Nothing. It may to you and thats fine...just know I am coming at this from solely the ability to play basketball. I don't care about anything else really that doesn't impact the game.

And considering Dirk is as loyal as it gets and as hard working as it gets off the court...there is really nothing else that matters.

Once again.....the "vs" peers and the "because I say so" arguments don't fly.

And Dir is not in the 25 to 30 range. He's a top 20 player of all time. There is simply no way 25 or 30 players deserve to be ranked over Dirk. Just a huge gap in our thinking.

I have Dr. J anywhere from 13 to 18 and Dirk anywhere from 15 to 20. Definitely on the same tier...which is what I've been arguing for.

I'll say it again. I have no issue with someone saying Dr. J....I have an issue with people saying they are on different tiers or that its not close. That is honestly just ignorant really.

[Shepseskaf]

Maybe I'm the only guy on this thread that actually remembers the 70s.

Because in the 70s Julius Erving was always considered to be a driver, a slasher who didn't play any defense, who couldn't rebound against NBA level players, who made his name in the ABA....
But OK, that's a long time ago, so I looked up some of the old Sports Illustrated articles. Just to see if my memory was playing tricks.

I'm all good there though...
You seem to have a bizarre fascination with knocking down the reputation of one of the greatest players in the game. I'm not sure what the underlying agenda is, but its very strange.

So, what you did was take lots of time to find articles that stated negative things about various aspects of Dr. J's game. Yet the OP's question had to do with two players. If I took the same amount of time, I could doubtlessly find a plethora of sources downing Dirk's on-court deficiencies.

Before finally winning a championship, the main thing that Dirk was known for was being a choking dog who disappeared in the clutch. I would find tons of material on that. He was vilified nationally after the embarrassing 2007 series against the underdog Warriors, when Baron and SJax tore him a new one and escorted the top-ranked Mavs out of the playoffs. Some called it the worst playoff performance by a so-called superstar in league history.

Let's not pretend that one player in this comparison had no flaws, while the other was a bumbling fool.

And for all of the negative things you found about Dr. J and the NBA portion of his career, I find it interesting that from the 1976-77, when he joined the league, until 1983-84, he was on the All-NBA team every single year -- 5 times on the 1st team, and 2 times on the second. Yeah, he had a really bad stint in the NBA. :rolleyes: Not to mention the 11 consecutive All-Star appearances after joining the league.

By any measure, Dr. J has had a more accomplished career than Dirk. That's just the way it is. He's therefore rated higher on any all-time player list assembled by basketball historians who actually know something about the game. Deal with it.

In addition, if we're matching the two up, prime on prime, the comparison gets even more out of whack in Dr. J's favor.

Lastly, I remind you again that the OP's original question was if you're building a franchise, which one do you choose? I responded earlier that any GM worth a damn would always opt for an athletic, versatile wing player over a mostly stationary 7' shooter as a team cornerstone. I believe that holds true today, as it would have back in the 70‘s.

[greensborohill]

I'll pick the guy that actually WON an NBA title as the #1 option. Good to see that the fvcks at insidehoops never change,they just change the script.

[DMAVS41]

[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]You seem to have a bizarre fascination with knocking down the reputation of one of the greatest players in the game. I'm not sure what the underlying agenda is, but its very strange.

So, what you did was take lots of time to find articles that stated negative things about various aspects of Dr. J's game. Yet the OP's question had to do with two players. If I took the same amount of time, I could doubtlessly find a plethora of sources downing Dirk's on-court deficiencies.

Before finally winning a championship, the main thing that Dirk was known for was being a choking dog who disappeared in the clutch. I would find tons of material on that. He was vilified nationally after the embarrassing 2007 series against the underdog Warriors, when Baron and SJax tore him a new one and escorted the top-ranked Mavs out of the playoffs. Some called it the worst playoff performance by a so-called superstar in league history.

Let's not pretend that one player in this comparison had no flaws, while the other was a bumbling fool.

And for all of the negative things you found about Dr. J and the NBA portion of his career, I find it interesting that from the 1976-77, when he joined the league, until 1983-84, he was on the All-NBA team every single year -- 5 times on the 1st team, and 2 times on the second. Yeah, he had a really bad stint in the NBA. :rolleyes: Not to mention the 11 consecutive All-Star appearances after joining the league.

By any measure, Dr. J has had a more accomplished career than Dirk. That's just the way it is. He's therefore rated higher on any all-time player list assembled by basketball historians who actually know something about the game. Deal with it.

In addition, if we're matching the two up, prime on prime, the comparison gets even more out of whack in Dr. J's favor.

Lastly, I remind you again that the OP's original question was if you're building a franchise, which one do you choose? I responded earlier that any GM worth a damn would always opt for an athletic, versatile wing player over a mostly stationary 7' shooter as a team cornerstone. I believe that holds true today, as it would have back in the 70

[bizil]

Well, I could not disagree more. AI, Nash, and Kidd have no business being ranked over Dirk by any criteria. Wade and Lebron could some day, but that also applies to Dr. J. My god...why are you people so dense about this? Wade and Lebron and KG could be argued over Dr. J as players as well....and Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan would be for sure.

Dr. J was on top 10 GOAT lists because he played 30 plus years ago. Look how many all time great players have come through since then really. MJ, Magic, Bird, Moses, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe....LOL. Are you really unable to process the difference in playing in the weakest era in basketball history and people creating GOAT lists from 10 plus years ago before 3 sure fire top 10 players of all time came around in Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe.

And why would you want to cut off Dirk's title? Did he not win it? That would be like me only talking about Dr. J's NBA career.....and if we did that Doc would have really no argument for even top 20 all time.

The off court stuff means nothing to me. Nothing. It may to you and thats fine...just know I am coming at this from solely the ability to play basketball. I don't care about anything else really that doesn't impact the game.

And considering Dirk is as loyal as it gets and as hard working as it gets off the court...there is really nothing else that matters.

Once again.....the "vs" peers and the "because I say so" arguments don't fly.

And Dir is not in the 25 to 30 range. He's a top 20 player of all time. There is simply no way 25 or 30 players deserve to be ranked over Dirk. Just a huge gap in our thinking.

I have Dr. J anywhere from 13 to 18 and Dirk anywhere from 15 to 20. Definitely on the same tier...which is what I've been arguing for.

I'll say it again. I have no issue with someone saying Dr. J....I have an issue with people saying they are on different tiers or that its not close. That is honestly just ignorant really.

No u r the dense one who lacks comprehension skills! Dr. J was the face of the NBA flat out. He revolutionized the game and was so exciting to watch. That's why he was the FACE of the L. U say off the court stuff means nothing. But if I'm building a team and wanting to be profitable that shit matters. And yes a player's MYSTIQUE does make a difference on a GOAT list. It is often a tiebreaker in certain instances. Dr. J was SO GREAT THAT IT CREATED A MYSTIQUE that Dirk can't top. Other guys like a Duncan can. But Dirk can't.

As of the decade of 2000-2009, Dirk was not a top 5 player for that decade. That would be Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, and KG. KG had the ring in that decade while Dirk didn't. And KG was WAY MORE COMPLETE A PLAYER THAN DIRK EVER WAS. Sure Dirk was a better alpha dog, but KG was still giving u 22-24 points a night. So at that point in time, KG was greater than Dirk. As of now, the gap has narrowed and Dirk has a great argument to be ranked over KG career wise. But peak value wise, give me KG over Dirk anyday of the week. And u still had Wade, AI, Nash, and Kidd as well. So for that timeframe, Dirk wasn't a top 5 player. He was in the top 10 for that decade, which is a great feat in itself. Dirk made his power move AFTER that decade ended. Get your comprehension facts straight before u go knocking people.

[DMAVS41]

No u r the dense one who lacks comprehension skills! Dr. J was the face of the NBA flat out. He revolutionized the game and was so exciting to watch. That's why he was the FACE of the L. U say off the court stuff means nothing. But if I'm building a team and wanting to be profitable that shit matters. And yes a player's MYSTIQUE does make a difference on a GOAT list. It is often a tiebreaker in certain instances. Dr. J was SO GREAT THAT IT CREATED A MYSTIQUE that Dirk can't top. Other guys like a Duncan can. But Dirk can't.

As of the decade of 2000-2009, Dirk was not a top 5 player for that decade. That would be Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Lebron, and KG. KG had the ring in that decade while Dirk didn't. And KG was WAY MORE COMPLETE A PLAYER THAN DIRK EVER WAS. Sure Dirk was a better alpha dog, but KG was still giving u 22-24 points a night. So at that point in time, KG was greater than Dirk. As of now, the gap has narrowed and Dirk has a great argument to be ranked over KG career wise. But peak value wise, give me KG over Dirk anyday of the week. And u still had Wade, AI, Nash, and Kidd as well. So for that timeframe, Dirk wasn't a top 5 player. He was in the top 10 for that decade, which is a great feat in itself. Dirk made his power move AFTER that decade ended. Get your comprehension facts straight before u go knocking people.


That post means absolutely nothing in determining who the better player was. Nothing.

If Dirk played in the 70's in the ABA he would have been better against his peers. Again....Dr. J could have only been 4th at best in the 00's. Dirk was top 5. Sorry. Dirk would be 5th in the time frame. At best Dr. J would have been 4th at best. If you include Lebron? Dr. J would be 5th at best. So that argument simply does not work.

In terms of excitement and face of the league. Means nothing. That has absolutely no impact on who the better player was.

You are having a completely different conversation. Which is fine, its just one I don't care about. Of course Dr. J was more exciting. Hell, Vince Carter and T-Mac were far more exciting than Dirk and more the face of the league at times are they are far worse players. Again...means nothing.

Just more subjective mumbo jumbo and ignoring anything objective because there isn't anything objective that leads you to Dr. J being on a higher tier.

[ThaRegul8r]

You seem to have a bizarre fascination with knocking down the reputation of one of the greatest players in the game. I'm not sure what the underlying agenda is, but its very strange.

Most people here have agendas which involve knocking down the reputation of other players. Pay attention in threads discussing players how many fanatics of certain players can never just talk about the positives of whomever the object of their obsession is, but they also are compelled to knock down another player. Just start paying attention to it. Pay attention to people who come into appreciation threads and the like just to knock the players discussed or bring up someone no one's even talking about. People are insecure and have to knock other players so that their players will look good in comparison. Secure supporters of players can just talk about their player because greatness stands on its own.

[Shepseskaf]

If Dirk played in the 70's in the ABA he would have been better against his peers. Again....Dr. J could have only been 4th at best in the 00's. Dirk was top 5. Sorry. Dirk would be 5th in the time frame. At best Dr. J would have been 4th at best.
You're obviously running out of steam and out of coherent arguments. You should probably stop posting on this topic now, but probably won't.

Let me teach you something about the art of debate -- you can't build an effective position based on a series of "what ifs". Your posts are filled with "if Dirk played in the 70's in the ABA", "if Dirk was on the 1983 Philly team", "if, if, if, if...."

The fact is that he wasn't.

No one knows what would have happened if by some weird time-space continuum shift Dirk ended up in the 70's. Its all wild guess-work and conjecture, and you cannot build an effective argument based on that.

[Whoah10115]

I don't know how anyone would say that Kidd has no criteria over Dirk. Jason Kidd is a better player than Dirk Nowitzki. Jason Kidd elevated the players around him better than anybody. And I mean probably ever.



Jason Kidd is top 4 or 5 all-time at the PG position and at his best is definitely in the top 4. And Lebron is definitely not ahead of Jason Kidd in the last decade.



And also, Nash...Dirk was better in the Dallas years, by a lot. But I think Nash has been better than him since going to Phoenix. Dirk has the performance in the Finals tho and the entire run last year. It's completely arguable.

[DMAVS41]

You're obviously running out of steam and out of coherent arguments. You should probably stop posting on this topic now, but probably won't.

Let me teach you something about the art of debate -- you can't build an effective position based on a series of "what ifs". Your posts are filled with "if Dirk played in the 70's in the ABA", "if Dirk was on the 1983 Philly team", "if, if, if, if...."

The fact is that he wasn't.

No one knows what would have happened if by some weird time-space continuum shift Dirk ended up in the 70's. Its all wild guess-work and conjecture, and you cannot build an effective argument based on that.

And you can't compare eras when one is significantly worse than the other. Factually worse. Not debatable.

We are comparing two players 30 years apart...its all about "what ifs"

I am using evidence and logic. There is far more evidence that Dirk could replicate Doc's title run in 83 than Doc could replicate Dirk's title run in 11.

You really think there is going to be some factual evidence proving one side? Its subjective and full of what ifs.

And if its all about facts?

26/10/3 on 58.4% TS 24.7 PER is better than.....

24/9/4 on 55.3% TS 22.1 PER

Facts are facts...right? No "what ifs"...right? So Dirk is factually the better playoff performer. And that is with Doc's inflated as hell ABA stats.

Did Doc average over 25/10 in the playoffs for his prime or career? Nope...Dirk is 1 of 4 players in history to do so.

Pretty much every advanced stat favors Dirk as well. Are they meaningless? I thought subjectivity and "what ifs" don't matter. So how again is Dr. J on a different tier?

And Dirk was the best player on a NBA title team. Doc? Nope.

Dirk won a finals MVP. Doc? Nope.

Facts are facts...right? LOL...your entire argument is subjective what ifs. If you go off objective measures then Dirk is better...certainly in the playoffs when it matters most.

Did Doc lead a franchise to 11 straight 50 win seasons? Nope. Was Doc undefeated in do or die game 7's (Dirk is 5-0). While going for over 30 and 10 in 3 of the 5. Nope.

Dirk is 9th all time in playoff ppg (including ABA players)...Dr. J is 20th.

Facts are facts...right? No "what ifs" and subjectivity...right?

So you can have your face of the franchise and better against peers crap...because it proves nothing.

Here is the true test. Will you at least admit that the 70's was worse than the 00's? Please answer.

[bizil]

If u line up Doc's resume to Dirk's resume, Doc still has the better resume. Dirk is awesome no doubt. I'm not here to diminish what he has done. But the question was building a franchise. And in my posts I stated why I would take Doc over Dirk. U can still make a case that Doc is a top 10 GOAT of all time, even though I put him in that 11-15 range myself. I dont see ANY CASE FOR DIRK IN THE TOP 15:

MJ
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Bird
Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Big O

These are personally my top 10 of all time. (no order)

Hakeem
West
Dr. J
Hondo
Baylor
Rick Barry
Moses Malone
Karl Malone
Isiah

After the top 10 I listed, these guys come next in my book. I don't see Dirk over these guys either as of now. Dirk still has run in him and can move up though. But then u have these guys currently in the L who will most likely move past Dirk, if they haven't arguably already even though they are only halfway through their careers:

Lebron
Wade

I feel many people have Lebron historically over Dirk even as of now. And some may have Wade as well. But both as of now appear on track to pass Dirk by in any event. So as I have stated before, I feel Dirk is a top 25-30 player at best as of now. He could move up and I will happily acknowledge that. I'm a big fan of Doc and Dirk, but I feel Dr. J was the superior player while Dirk was the tougher matchup problem.

[bizil]

And you can't compare eras when one is significantly worse than the other. Factually worse. Not debatable.

We are comparing two players 30 years apart...its all about "what ifs"

I am using evidence and logic. There is far more evidence that Dirk could replicate Doc's title run in 83 than Doc could replicate Dirk's title run in 11.

You really think there is going to be some factual evidence proving one side? Its subjective and full of what ifs.

And if its all about facts?

26/10/3 on 58.4% TS 24.7 PER is better than.....

24/9/4 on 55.3% TS 22.1 PER

Facts are facts...right? No "what ifs"...right? So Dirk is factually the better playoff performer. And that is with Doc's inflated as hell ABA stats.

Did Doc average over 25/10 in the playoffs for his prime or career? Nope...Dirk is 1 of 4 players in history to do so.

Pretty much every advanced stat favors Dirk as well. Are they meaningless? I thought subjectivity and "what ifs" don't matter. So how again is Dr. J on a different tier?

And Dirk was the best player on a NBA title team. Doc? Nope.

Dirk won a finals MVP. Doc? Nope.

Facts are facts...right? LOL...your entire argument is subjective what ifs. If you go off objective measures then Dirk is better...certainly in the playoffs when it matters most.

Did Doc lead a franchise to 11 straight 50 win seasons? Nope. Was Doc undefeated in do or die game 7's (Dirk is 5-0). While going for over 30 and 10 in 3 of the 5. Nope.

Dirk is 9th all time in playoff ppg (including ABA players)...Dr. J is 20th.

Facts are facts...right? No "what ifs" and subjectivity...right?

So you can have your face of the franchise and better against peers crap...because it proves nothing.

Here is the true test. Will you at least admit that the 70's was worse than the 00's? Please answer.

There is no shame in Doc being the second best player behind a three time MVP in Moses Malone. They were both alpha dogs and many teams who win titles have more than one alpha dog. So that argument falls on deaf ears in my book.

Doc usually played on more stacked teams that Dirk. Have u ever heard of Mcginnis, Doug Collins, and World B. Free These are the types of player Doc played with BEFORE MOSES! That's why Doc's scoring might have been lower than Dirk's playoff wise. And the 76ers got to the Finals multiple times BEFORE Moses got there. When u have to go up against Walton and Kareem to win rings, it would help to have a center on their level or damn close to get over the hump.

Doc was the best player on ABA teams that won three titles. Those that know the game know the talent in the ABA was on par with the NBA. Dirk can't make that claim. U can't just disregard ABA shit when the two leagues merged and that the NBA took so many ABA concepts. Hell the All Star Weekend is based off the ABA! The ABA was the one who showed showmanship those events and started so much.

[La Frescobaldi]

[QUOTE=Shepseskaf]You seem to have a bizarre fascination with knocking down the reputation of one of the greatest players in the game. I'm not sure what the underlying agenda is, but its very strange.

So, what you did was take lots of time to find articles that stated negative things about various aspects of Dr. J's game. Yet the OP's question had to do with two players. If I took the same amount of time, I could doubtlessly find a plethora of sources downing Dirk's on-court deficiencies.

Before finally winning a championship, the main thing that Dirk was known for was being a choking dog who disappeared in the clutch. I would find tons of material on that. He was vilified nationally after the embarrassing 2007 series against the underdog Warriors, when Baron and SJax tore him a new one and escorted the top-ranked Mavs out of the playoffs. Some called it the worst playoff performance by a so-called superstar in league history.

Let's not pretend that one player in this comparison had no flaws, while the other was a bumbling fool.

And for all of the negative things you found about Dr. J and the NBA portion of his career, I find it interesting that from the 1976-77, when he joined the league, until 1983-84, he was on the All-NBA team every single year -- 5 times on the 1st team, and 2 times on the second. Yeah, he had a really bad stint in the NBA. :rolleyes: Not to mention the 11 consecutive All-Star appearances after joining the league.

By any measure, Dr. J has had a more accomplished career than Dirk. That's just the way it is. He's therefore rated higher on any all-time player list assembled by basketball historians who actually know something about the game. Deal with it.

In addition, if we're matching the two up, prime on prime, the comparison gets even more out of whack in Dr. J's favor.

Lastly, I remind you again that the OP's original question was if you're building a franchise, which one do you choose? I responded earlier that any GM worth a damn would always opt for an athletic, versatile wing player over a mostly stationary 7' shooter as a team cornerstone. I believe that holds true today, as it would have back in the 70

[Shepseskaf]

And if its all about facts?

26/10/3 on 58.4% TS 24.7 PER is better than.....

24/9/4 on 55.3% TS 22.1 PER
The kernel of your argument seems to be that Dirk was more accomplished offensively. That's a moot point. I've already acknowledged that he is perhaps the greatest shooting big man in NBA history. I did not say that Dr. J was the greatest shooting small forward ever to play the game.

Understand, though, that basketball has two components -- offense and defense. How does Dirk stack up on D? Not so well; certainly not to the level of The Doc.

And this leads to to the last point, which I keep reiterating. The OP's question was: which player would you take to build a franchise? Names, reputations, and eras aside, choosing a player first who was more versatile, more athletic, and was skilled at both ends of the floor is a no brainer. So, the answer would be Dr. J.

This "debate" has devolved into pointlessness, and I refuse to be drawn into considerations involving which era was hypothetically better than another one. A player can only compete against those who are members of teams he actually opposed.

This is my last response to you on this topic. You'll never stop trying to push your point, and I decline to waste my time any further.

[Shepseskaf]

I was not answering the OP's question but was responding to what in my opinion were wild statements about how Julius Erving was viewed in the 70s.
I didn't raise any "wild statements" about Dr. J, and if you're going to dig up dirt about one player in a direct comparison thread, you should do the same for the other.


So to the OP's question "Build Franchise" - I must ask for clarification.
You'll need to ask the OP. I can't read his mind. I assume that he meant if one were building a franchise from the ground up, which player would be selected first to begin that process.

It has been my contention throughout the thread that the only logical choice would be a more versatile, athletic player who could operate at a high level on both ends of the floor... which would lead to the selection of Dr. J over Dirk.

Simple enough, I think. As noted above, I'm done with this thread. Its a waste of time to start talking about speculative things like the popularity of the sport in Europe, and such other considerations that have nothing to do with the primary question that was originally posed.

[DMAVS41]

The kernel of your argument seems to be that Dirk was more accomplished offensively. That's a moot point. I've already acknowledged that he is perhaps the greatest shooting big man in NBA history. I did not say that Dr. J was the greatest shooting small forward ever to play the game.

Understand, though, that basketball has two components -- offense and defense. How does Dirk stack up on D? Not so well; certainly not to the level of The Doc.

And this leads to to the last point, which I keep reiterating. The OP's question was: which player would you take to build a franchise? Names, reputations, and eras aside, choosing a player first who was more versatile, more athletic, and was skilled at both ends of the floor is a no brainer. So, the answer would be Dr. J.

This "debate" has devolved into pointlessness, and I refuse to be drawn into considerations involving which era was hypothetically better than another one. A player can only compete against those who are members of teams he actually opposed.

This is my last response to you on this topic. You'll never stop trying to push your point, and I decline to waste my time any further.


Dr. J was an average defender. And while he was better than Dirk...a wing defender in the class of Dr. J just doesn't impact the game defensively that much.

My argument is simply that almost every objective measure has them on the same tier.

Your argument is that things like playing in the weakest era vs weaker peers should determine something.

its not even hypothetical...the 70s were the worse decade for professional basketball easily.

[vinsane01]

I'll be honest, all i know about the Doctor is his famous free throw line dunk, cradle dunk and his amazing reverse lay-up. He was also one of the players who revolutionized how the game was played as evidenced by the highlights ive listed.

I wont act like i knew how he played based on the numbers and a few video clips available online. To put it simply, with what i know of him right now, if i had to decide between the two straightaway, Id pick Dirk. I at least have seen dirk play loads of times and know his capabilities and what type players he needs in order to make him and the team function efficiently. But of course, my opinion is open to persuasion.

[La Frescobaldi]

I didn't raise any "wild statements" about Dr. J, and if you're going to dig up dirt about one player in a direct comparison thread, you should do the same for the other.


You'll need to ask the OP. I can't read his mind. I assume that he meant if one were building a franchise from the ground up, which player would be selected first to begin that process.

It has been my contention throughout the thread that the only logical choice would be a more versatile, athletic player who could operate at a high level on both ends of the floor... which would lead to the selection of Dr. J over Dirk.

Simple enough, I think. As noted above, I'm done with this thread. Its a waste of time to start talking about speculative things like the popularity of the sport in Europe, and such other considerations that have nothing to do with the primary question that was originally posed.

*********************
Good. We clearly don't understand what the other is saying. Because suggesting Erving's defense was "operating at a high level"... that's just not something I'd ever be able to accept. The guy got torched, a lot, for years.

Cheerio!!