Jordan not winning yet at Lebron's age is not the same thing: STOP BRINGING IT UP

[guy]

I keep hearing people say this whenever Lebron not winning a title yet comes up. Its not the same. Stop bringing it up.

1. Lebron was 26 at the end of last season, his 8th season. Jordan was 26 at the end of 1989, his 5th season. Lebron has 3 years more NBA experience and 3 more chances at the same age.
2. Jordan had never choked and shrunk for an entire series the way Lebron has the past 2 seasons.
3. Jordan's teams in his first 5 seasons never lost as the favorite nor were they as good as Lebron's teams in the past 3 seasons, ESPECIALLY last season.

Point is Lebron is NOT on Jordan's pace like people want to imply when they bring this up and he's already had monumental failures that Jordan's never had.

[LakersReign]

Nothing new here since REAL NBA fans already know this. Just hilarious watching the bandwagon Lebron fans try to draw lines to dots that aren't there, just to continue to prop him up. There's nothing remotely similar between them, and those who try to make any sort of comparison clearly know nothing of what they speak.

[RRR3]

http://clnsradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/big-baby-crying.jpg

[LA_Showtime]

Just goes to show you how difficult it is to win a championship, let alone two, three, four, etc. I think a lot of people thought LeBron would have a ring by now, even though history suggests a lot of great players never even get an opportunity to play for a championship.

I hate to bring up Kobe Bryant, but consider he's spent almost half of his career playing in the Finals. That is just an amazing accomplishment by itself.

[kennethgriffin]

no difference here

lebron had to wait for kobe, dirk, duncan to be past their primes to get a chance

jordan had to wait for Magic, Bird and isaih to be past their primes to get a chance

same thing. different era

both jordan and lebron are lame

[Nevaeh]

no difference here

lebron had to wait for kobe, dirk, duncan to be past their primes to get a chance

jordan had to wait for Magic, Bird and isaih to be past their primes to get a chance

same thing. different era

both jordan and lebron are lame

Better than "waiting" on the bench during a "weak era" before you can get a chance to Start, Amirite? You're becoming more and more bitter with age Griff.

[RRR3]

Better than "waiting" on the bench during a "weak era" before you can get a chance to Start, Amirite? You're becoming more and more bitter with age Griff.
Don't forget this great moment against the "weak 90's defense".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws2yhBzJjis
Godbe :bowdown:

[Andrei89]

no difference here

lebron had to wait for kobe, dirk, duncan to be past their primes to get a chance

jordan had to wait for Magic, Bird and isaih to be past their primes to get a chance

same thing. different era

both jordan and lebron are lame

Kobe rode Shaq. If he was in on the Hornets...

he too had to wait for Duncan, Wade and Shaq to get a chance

[kennethgriffin]

Better than "waiting" on the bench during a "weak era" before you can get a chance to Start, Amirite? You're becoming more and more bitter with age Griff.

lol if lebron came in the league behind 2 allstars at both positions he could have played... he would have rode the bench aswell

sometimes paying your dues comes in handy. it makes you work harder to improve your game. unlike those who get all the hype and all the shots handed to them from day one

16 years later kobes added dozens of moves to his game

9 years later lebrons added nothing to his game



Kobe rode Shaq. If he was in on the Hornets...

he too had to wait for Duncan, Wade and Shaq to get a chance

lmfao kobe sha*t all over prime duncan on the regular and won titles with 29ppg at the same time

then took his team to the finals 3 straight years at a time when wade and lebron were both prime and claimed another 2 titles

kobe gets it done against any prime legend of any era

[RRR3]

lol if lebron came in the league behind 2 allstars at both positions he could have played... he would have rode the bench aswell

sometimes paying your dues comes in handy. it makes you work harder to improve your game. unlike those who get all the hype and all the shots handed to them from day one

16 years later kobes added dozens of moves to his game

9 years later lebrons added nothing to his game
Yep, Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel...legendary all-stars right there :bowdown: :bowdown:

[kennethgriffin]

Yep, Eddie Jones and Nick Van Exel...legendary all-stars right there :bowdown: :bowdown:

well not legendary. but allstars yea

no way an unproven rookie bumps an allstar to the bench

[Kblaze8855]

Rookie Lebron was as good as or better than anyone on the 97 Lakers short of Shaq ever were. I doubt that is easily hidden. Kobe was raw. Lebron was never that. He was raw compared to what he is now. He wasnt just....a rookie finding his way.

Kobe wasnt starting because he wasnt very good. He was talented and great one on one. But he wasnt just....a really good player.

[kennethgriffin]

Rookie Lebron was as good as or better than anyone on the 97 Lakers short of Shaq ever were. I doubt that is easily hidden. Kobe was raw. Lebron was never that. He was raw compared to what he is now. He wasnt just....a rookie finding his way.

Kobe wasnt starting because he wasnt very good. He was talented and great one on one. But he wasnt just....a really good player.

scoring wise maybe. but your forgetting that eddie jones was a 2nd team all defender

and even if lebron was better. he would still be forced to come off the bench just out of respect for the other guy

you have to earn your spot. especially on a winning team with expectations. if the coach started lebron over jones and they lost. everyone would have blamed the coach and said "LA would have won if they started jones"

i'm not saying a rookie kobe is as good as a rookie lebron... lebron was clearly better because he had an nba ready body

fact is lebron would not have started on a contender with allstars infront of him

[Kblaze8855]

And Eddie Jones put up 13/4 in 96. He was hardly some established star. Quite a few rookies could start in his place coming in.

[guy]

scoring wise maybe. but your forgetting that eddie jones was a 2nd team all defender

and even if lebron was better. he would still be forced to come off the bench just out of respect for the other guy

you have to earn your spot. especially on a winning team with expectations. if the coach started lebron over jones and they lost. everyone would have blamed the coach and said "LA would have won if they started jones"

i'm not saying a rookie kobe is as good as a rookie lebron... lebron was clearly better because he had an nba ready body

fact is lebron would not have started on a contender with allstars infront of him

Rookie Lebron would've easily started over Eddie Jones. It wasn't a "respect" thing. Eddie Jones was just better then Kobe at that time.

[kennethgriffin]

And Eddie Jones put up 13/4 in 96. He was hardly some established star. Quite a few rookies could start in his place coming in.

its not always about numbers. sometimes its about potential.. and eddie had more proven potential to be an nba ready starter on a contending team

he was averaging 50% fg's and near 37% threes that year aswell dont forget ( while being a lock down defender )

and obviously when you have cebellos averaging 21

magic johnson averaging 15

van exel averaging 15

campbel averaging 14

and divac averaging 13

then youd understand why a guy like jones couldnt get his points.

when you have 6 guys in double figures on a team run by magic and nick.. its hard to call your own shots


and most importantly... the team in 97 was run by a coach that didnt like using rookies. and hated when they would score allot. del harris was not a rookie friendly coach


Rookie Lebron would've easily started over Eddie Jones. It wasn't a "respect" thing. Eddie Jones was just better then Kobe at that time.


never... not with eddie coming off 50% fg's and 37% threes with his defense

and not with del harris

[PTB Fan]

It's not the same situation and it never was.

[rmt]

lmfao kobe sha*t all over prime duncan on the regular and won titles with 29ppg at the same time

kobe (and MDE/best front line) gets it done against any prime legend of any era

Fixed. I shudder to think how many more Duncan would have won playing beside Prime Shaq for 8 years. He won 3 with little ole Parker (#28 draft pick) and crazy Manu (#57) and 1 without them.

Back to the OT: it's a different age now. Back then, superstars carry their teams to a championship while team mates grow and develop and eventually lift some of the load off the superstar. Now, it's stars ganging up together. Duncan did it the old-fashioned way and OKC seems to be following down that path - drafting well and sticking together through the growing pains.

I'm going to get ragged on for this - but Kobe needs to give Bynum more touches and let him develop - c'mon 20/20 vs 1-11. Keep on chucking, Kobe.

[Kblaze8855]

scoring wise maybe. but your forgetting that eddie jones was a 2nd team all defender

and even if lebron was better. he would still be forced to come off the bench just out of respect for the other guy

you have to earn your spot. especially on a winning team with expectations.

No you dont. In the rare cases where a great player goes to an already good team he doesnt have to prove he should start. You find a place for great players. Plenty of rookies come in and displace the vets. In all likelyhood Lebron would have just started at the 3. Or Jones would. Lebron was 6'8'' 245 as a rookie. He wasnt a 185 pound string. Lebron was ready to go at vets in every way from day one.

How he compares to prime Kobe isnt an issue. But Lebron at 18 was the size of a power forward already. I was on here during his senior year and legends, coaches, and players were saying he could start in HS on every team in the league.

Kobe could have in a...lets throw him out there since we suck and let him grow. Lebron could earn a spot on any team.


if the coach started lebron over jones and they lost. everyone would have blamed the coach and said "LA would have won if they started jones"

Coaches get blamed anyway.


i'm not saying a rookie kobe is as good as a rookie lebron... lebron was clearly better because he had an nba ready body

fact is lebron would not have started on a contender with allstars infront of him


You saying its a fact doesnt mean it is. And calling Jones and Nick all stars doesnt mean they were at the time(neither was at the time the season started...Nick wasnt for 2 years). Players as good as Lebron have rarely been benched regardless of who else is on the team. It happens....but its rare. Players as good as 96 Kobe...arent usually starters.

Lebron by playing ability...was a starter. Kobe wasnt. Kobe might not have started on some lottery teams in 96. Not to open the season. He just wasnt. He put up 5 points on 40%, 3 points on 33%, 11 on 47%, and 5 points on 26% his first 4 months. And he wasnt a good defender...or able to really stand up to NBA players strength wise....he made bad decisions...shot too much...

He just wasnt a usual NBA starter. Lebron was. And having a not quite all star at the 2 couldnt hide it. Rookie Lebron would be the second best player on that team.

Rookie Lebron....Grant Hill...Penny...plenty of rookies would start on the 97 Lakers. Even if it meant playing them or Eddie at the 3.

[dunksby]

MJ like any other All-time great player could not win a championship on his own, there are so many variables contributing to a great player winning a championship which sometimes they dwarf that very player's contribution.

[chips93]

I keep hearing people say this whenever Lebron not winning a title yet comes up. Its not the same. Stop bringing it up.

1. Lebron was 26 at the end of last season, his 8th season. Jordan was 26 at the end of 1989, his 5th season. Lebron has 3 years more NBA experience and 3 more chances at the same age.
2. Jordan had never choked and shrunk for an entire series the way Lebron has the past 2 seasons.
3. Jordan's teams in his first 5 seasons never lost as the favorite nor were they as good as Lebron's teams in the past 3 seasons, ESPECIALLY last season.

Point is Lebron is NOT on Jordan's pace like people want to imply when they bring this up and he's already had monumental failures that Jordan's never had.

only idiots who bring this up are implying that lbj is on jordan's pace.
they are implying that he can still have a historically great career, despite
his postseason play thus far.

[32Dayz]

its not always about numbers. sometimes its about potential.. and eddie had more proven potential to be an nba ready starter on a contending team

and most importantly... the team in 97 was run by a coach that didnt like using rookies. and hated when they would score allot. del harris was not a rookie friendly coach


never... not with eddie coming off 50% fg's and 37% threes with his defense

and not with del harris

You are overrating the sh** out of E. Jones.

Eddie Jones in his playoff elimination series.
97 : 10.2ppg / 3rpg / 2.4 APG on 37% shooting.
98 : 15ppg / 4rpg / 3 APG on 41% shooting.

Kobe from 97-99 in playoff elimination series.
97 : 8ppg / 2rpg / 1.8 APG. 31% shooting
98 : 10ppg / 2rpg / 1 APG. 36% shooting
99 : 21ppg / 6.5rpg / 3.5 APG. 43% shooting

Young Kobe was bad... not comparable to Young Lebron or Young Wade.


Wade from 04-06 in playoff elimination series.
04 : 21ppg / 4rpg / 5.7 APG on 49% shooting
05 : 26ppg / 4.5rpg / 4.5 APG on 48% shooting
06 : 35ppg / 7.8rpg / 3.8 APG on 47% shooting

Lebron from 04-06 in playoff elimination series.
06 : 26.5 / 8.5rpg / 6apg on 44% shooting

[kennethgriffin]

No you dont. In the rare cases where a great player goes to an already good team he doesnt have to prove he should start. You find a place for great players. Plenty of rookies come in and displace the vets. In all likelyhood Lebron would have just started at the 3. Or Jones would. Lebron was 6'8'' 245 as a rookie. He wasnt a 185 pound string. Lebron was ready to go at vets in every way from day one.

How he compares to prime Kobe isnt an issue. But Lebron at 18 was the size of a power forward already. I was on here during his senior year and legends, coaches, and players were saying he could start in HS on every team in the league.

Kobe could have in a...lets throw him out there since we suck and let him grow. Lebron could earn a spot on any team.



Coaches get blamed anyway.




You saying its a fact doesnt mean it is. And calling Jones and Nick all stars doesnt mean they were at the time(neither was at the time the season started...Nick wasnt for 2 years). Players as good as Lebron have rarely been benched regardless of who else is on the team. It happens....but its rare. Players as good as 96 Kobe...arent usually starters.

Lebron by playing ability...was a starter. Kobe wasnt. Kobe might not have started on some lottery teams in 96. Not to open the season. He just wasnt. He put up 5 points on 40%, 3 points on 33%, 11 on 47%, and 5 points on 26% his first 4 months. And he wasnt a good defender...or able to really stand up to NBA players strength wise....he made bad decisions...shot too much...

He just wasnt a usual NBA starter. Lebron was. And having a not quite all star at the 2 couldnt hide it. Rookie Lebron would be the second best player on that team.

Rookie Lebron....Grant Hill...Penny...plenty of rookies would start on the 97 Lakers. Even if it meant playing them or Eddie at the 3.


no he wouldnt

no way del harris A COACH WHO HATED ROOKIES starts lebron A BALL DOMINANT PLAYER with nick van exel on the floor

all while benching a guy who was a deadly three point shooter at near 40% ( which lebron wasnt )

all while benching a guy who was a proven scorer at 50% fg's ( which lebron wasnt )

all while benching a guy who was a deadly lock down defender ( which lebron wasnt )


to start a guy who was unproven in the nba with 41% shooting, 29% threes, and shot air ball free throws at times

people on here are VASTLY overrated rookie lebron... carmelo should have won rookie of the year. PERIOD

enough :facepalm

[guy]

only idiots who bring this up are implying that lbj is on jordan's pace.

they are implying that he can still have a historically great career, despite

his postseason play thus far.

They are at least implying that Lebron could still accomplish close to what Jordan did. They are ignoring the fact that its not easy at all, that Lebron doesn't necessarily have as much time left, and that so far he's shown that he's clearly not as great of a player as Jordan.

[32Dayz]

Rookie Lebron was 1000x better then Rookie Kobe

Lebron in his first 3 years was 1000x better then Kobe in his first 3 years

Finally you post the truth.

:cheers:

[LakersReign]

only idiots who bring this up are implying that lbj is on jordan's pace.

they are implying that he can still have a historically great career.

He can still have a great career, that's not the issue. The real issue is that his fans keep trying to put him on par with Jordan(while at the same time, saying Kobe isn't in his league), when he and Jordan don't have any similarities. It's just like how they were trying to compare Magic been drafted to the Lakers, to Lebron being a free agent and CHOOSING to go to Miami, as supposedly the same thing. They're trying to draw a conclusion to a point that was never there to begin with.

[kennethgriffin]

Finally you post the truth.

:cheers:

lmfao about the only thing lebron fans got on kobe is "rookie production"

good for lebron.. he came into the nba at 6-8, 240 on HGH

kobe came into the league at 6-6, 190 with no muscle

woopy

congrats lebron fans


kobes been the more tallented player his entire life and actually did something with it

[Kblaze8855]

Oh so your case is....he wouldnt because he wouldnt. I see.

And what reason is there to not start all 3 at once?

If Kobe walked in as 99 Kobe(roughly the level of rookie Lebron...id say 2000 Kobe was better than rookie lebron) all 3 of them would play.

And rookie Carmelo could be a starter on most teams too. Including the 97 Lakers.

[32Dayz]

kobes been on the most talented teams and with the most talented players his entire life and actually did something with it

Agreed. :applause:

[kennethgriffin]

Oh so your case is....he wouldnt because he wouldnt. I see.

And what reason is there to not start all 3 at once?

If Kobe walked in as 99 Kobe(roughly the level of rookie Lebron...id say 2000 Kobe was better than rookie lebron) all 3 of them would play.

And rookie Carmelo could be a starter on most teams too. Including the 97 Lakers.

your case is... he would because he would


i'm giving you comon sense

del harris = doesnt start rookies

eddie jones = more proven nba ready

la lakers = expectations to win a title

eddie jones = coming off massive highlights in 96 with 50% fg's,37%3's

lebron james = coming off unproven highschool



this is comon sense... this isnt cleveland. its los angeles

this isnt a joke franchise... its the most valuable franchise


what happend when kobe had big scoring games as a rookie and a second year player? his coach would bench him.. they didnt like it. they werent having it.

[32Dayz]

your case is... he would because he would


i'm giving you comon sense

del harris = doesnt start rookies

eddie jones = more proven nba ready

la lakers = expectations to win a title

eddie jones = coming off massive highlights in 96 with 50% fg's,37%3's

lebron james = coming off unproven highschool



this is comon sense... this isnt cleveland. its los angeles

this isnt a joke franchise... its the most valuable franchise


what happend when kobe had big scoring games as a rookie and a second year player? his coach would bench him.. they didnt like it. they werent having it.

Your wrong, Rookie Kobe even 2nd year Kobe was just a bad player.
That was the reason he didnt get more playing time over the extremely unimpressive Jones.

[LA_Showtime]

MJ like any other All-time great player could not win a championship on his own, there are so many variables contributing to a great player winning a championship which sometimes they dwarf that very player's contribution.

And that's why LeBron's career is so hard to judge. He won plenty of games in Cleveland, and yet his team's routinely failed to get to the Finals. Did he cause those teams to overachieve or do you blame him for not leading them to the Finals despite dominating the regular season? What about last season? Do you praise him for leading the Heat to the Finals or dock him for taking a backseat to Wade and appearing not to care?

[kennethgriffin]

Your wrong, Rookie Kobe even 2nd year Kobe was just a bad player.
That was the reason he didnt get more playing time over the extremely unimpressive Jones.


nobody here is talking about kobe you fu*cking idiot


2004 nba allstar game

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_NBA_All-Star_Game

1997 nba allstar game

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_NBA_All-Star_Game



eddie jones = Monthly Awards
Nov 1997: Player of the Month




yea... lebron was not better

[Kblaze8855]

Del Harris....like most coaches...starts anyone who should be starting. I notice he didnt bench Ralph Sampson. Terry Teagle started for Del as a rookie. As did Eddie Jones. They didnt have people capable of keeping them on the bench is what id assume you would say....which really should make it obvious that as with most...its not being a rookie or not...its being the best player. Del harris plays rookies who are good players. Lebron was. Kobe was not.

And eve if he wants to start Eddie...I must ask again. Why exactly...would he not play Lebron at the 3?

Undersized? No. Was Lebron worse than 35 year old Jerome Kersey? No.

So....whats the motivation to not start Lebron or Eddie at the 3?

You going to tell me Del Harris rookie hate extends to the point of benching Lebron for old Kersey when he wouldnt bench several other rookies for vets who didnt compare to them?

[dunksby]

And that's why LeBron's career is so hard to judge. He won plenty of games in Cleveland, and yet his team's routinely failed to get to the Finals. Did he cause those teams to overachieve or do you blame him for not leading them to the Finals despite dominating the regular season? What about last season? Do you praise him for leading the Heat to the Finals or dock him for taking a backseat to Wade and appearing not to care?
Lebron has been to finals with what his fans want to call a weak supporting cast and a super stacked team. He has lost on all occasions and interestingly he is the constant variable in all of them so as long as LBJ puts up mind boggling numbers but fails to win a championship he is just a healthy and more athletic Grant Hill.

[Scholar]

I wanted to join this debate, but it's starting to get silly. I'll pass.

[kennethgriffin]

Del Harris....like most coaches...starts anyone who should be starting. I notice he didnt bench Ralph Sampson. Terry Teagle started for Del as a rookie. As did Eddie Jones. They didnt have people capable of keeping them on the bench is what id assume you would say....which really should make it obvious that as with most...its not being a rookie or not...its being the best player. Del harris plays rookies who are good players. Lebron was. Kobe was not.

And eve if he wants to start Eddie...I must ask again. Why exactly...would he not play Lebron at the 3?

Undersized? No. Was Lebron worse than 35 year old Jerome Kersey? No.

So....whats the motivation to not start Lebron or Eddie at the 3?

You going to tell me Del Harris rookie hate extends to the point of benching Lebron for old Kersey when he wouldnt bench several other rookies for vets who didnt compare to them?


il say it again... 97 was the start of eddie jones prime. he was an allstar.. he was catching lobs and throwing down dunks on people.. a lock down defender making all nba defense. he was a three point specialist. he was proven.

lebron was not an allstar. averaged p*ss poor shooting numbers. was raw. at the time* he was a bad defender

do you dispute any of this?


and the question wasnt would he start on LA at sf. the question was "would he start over an allstar with eddie jones type skill and production"

obviously eddie was a 2 and lebrons a 3

[Kblaze8855]

I see....we are pretending that the small forward position does not exist so you dont have to admit the obvious?

Understood.

[kennethgriffin]

I see....we are pretending that the small forward position does not exist so you dont have to admit the obvious?

Understood.


well then this isnt even a topic

the question was would lebron start over a guy like eddie when kobe couldnt


the question was never... "would lebron start with eddie"

LOL then yea sure maybe hes 6-8 and strong... the lakers starting sf was jerome kersey

yea sure lebron as a rookie is better than jerome kersey.

kobe at lebrons height and weight/position would do the same

way to change the subject tho.. good move because i was winning

[pegasus]

I wanted to join this debate, but it's starting to get silly. I'll pass.

I know. That pathetic 32dayz "quote"s people's posts but changes the wording as he wishes, further polluting the thread in addition to his own dumb posts.:facepalm

Where are the mods when you need them? All Net??

[pegasus]

how many stupid ****ing threads about this dumb n igger are you gonna make?? admins on this board are trash

I can't believe you used the "d-word":facepalm

[kennethgriffin]

I know. That pathetic 32dayz "quote"s people's posts but changes the wording as he wishes, further polluting the thread in addition to his own dumb posts.:facepalm

Where are the mods when you need them? All Net??


i was talking about eddie jones and lebron james.. then 32dayz jumps in with "KOBE SUCKS"

lol i dont think this guy has a clue about anything. i think kobe is 1 of only about 50 words he learned when he moved here from china

[PrimeJohnnyDepp]

Your wrong, Rookie Kobe even 2nd year Kobe was just a bad player.
That was the reason he didnt get more playing time over the extremely unimpressive Jones.


Nooobody talks about those Lakers that way, not even a 12yo future footstool. Die.

[cteach111]

kenneth, 32Dayz & kblaze ruined this thread

[Kblaze8855]

well then this isnt even a topic

the question was would lebron start over a guy like eddie when kobe couldnt


the question was never... "would lebron start with eddie"

The question is...would Lebron start on the Lakers. And he would. the idea that hes going t the bench is just absurd. No matter who it takes moving out of his way...Lebron James was never a bench player.



LOL then yea sure maybe hes 6-8 and strong... the lakers starting sf was jerome kersey

yea sure lebron as a rookie is better than jerome kersey.

kobe at lebrons height and weight/position would do the same

2000 Kobe would have started on the 97 Lakers. Its not size. Its ability. Kobe eventually had the ability to start over Eddie Jones or to have them start together. He did not have it in 1997. Kersey is getting pushed out with any even somewhat close to prime Kobe and 97 Jones on the roster...and it has nothing to do with Kobes size.



way to change the subject tho.. good move because i was winning

You are making shit up abut Del not playing rookies(just...factually inaccurate) ignoring that Eddie and Lebron both played a lot of small forward(eddie on the Hornets and heat especially) and acting like the issue is something it isnt. Lebron is 6'8'' 245. Eddie was what? 6'7'' and a great defender? Do it all players. They are classic examples of just...swingmen. Kobe is a swingman too. He just wasnt a good one in 1997.

Lebron as a rookie...on the 97 lakers...is not being benched like Kobe. It just isnt happening. And Kobe towards his prime wouldnt be either...and Lebron being bigger wouldnt be the reason. Neither rookie Lebron or Eddie Jones were guys to play 15-20 minutes off the bench.

Rookie Kobe...was. Which is all there is to it.

Kersey is not reason enough to keep Kobe on the bench. You find a spot for great player even if its moving Eddie to the 3(where he would have zero trouble).

Kobes lack of starting is due to a problem Lebron never had.

Kobe didnt start because he wasnt very good. Kobe was a one on one gym player. Kobe was not good as an NBA player. Thats the only issue.

[guy]

how many stupid ****ing threads about this dumb n igger are you gonna make?? admins on this board are trash

5,000,000 :banana:

[Kblaze8855]

kenneth, 32Dayz & kblaze ruined this thread

This topic was never going to be worthwhile. Kobe/Lebron hate topics are probably best deleted on sight. Only reason I didnt is because the guy seems to have put some thought into it and if I just deleted every Kobe/Lebron topic half the people here wouldnt have anything to say.

[chips93]

They are at least implying that Lebron could still accomplish close to what Jordan did. They are ignoring the fact that its not easy at all, that Lebron doesn't necessarily have as much time left, and that so far he's shown that he's clearly not as great of a player as Jordan.

you are making a pretty wild generalisation as to the motivations of all the people who have pointed out this trivial fact.

personally, i think its possible that lebron wins plenty of championships. i dont know how likely it is, but its possible.

and i think most people who point this out think the same thing

i dont know, maybe you are ranting about a small minority of dumb posters that i dont pay attention to (and maybe if they are so dumb, you should ignore them too?)

[SpecialQue]

The title of this thread should be changed to "Hey Lebron Fans, Stop Defending Your Favorite Player!"

[Dengness9]

Just goes to show you how difficult it is to win a championship, let alone two, three, four, etc. I think a lot of people thought LeBron would have a ring by now, even though history suggests a lot of great players never even get an opportunity to play for a championship.

I hate to bring up Kobe Bryant, but consider he's spent almost half of his career playing in the Finals. That is just an amazing accomplishment by itself.


And I hate to bring up the fact that 99.9% of players don't come into the league and have a prime shaq right of the bat. Kobe deserves a lot of credit for what he's accomplished....however getting to play w/ prime untouchable shaq is the main reason he has 3 titles.

I hope Lebron never wins a title, I hate his guts. That being said, Lefraud has never played with anybody that good in his career arguably til last year. I'm taking early 2000's Shaq over current day Wade.

Wade wouldn't have a title either if he didn't play with Shaq.

[pauk]

1. When people say "Jordan didnt had a ring until he was 27-28" they mean that Lebron has time to achieve those accomplishments aswell... because it is the age that is the countdown... not how many NBA seasons you played... its the age that is the problem...

2. Lebron had 3 years NBA experience in a scrub team... and Jordan had 3 years College/NCAA Championship experience....... i would think from a basketball standpoint Jordan had better basketball experience at similar age coming in to the NBA...

3. NBA experience will help you as a player... but will not win you championship... BEST TEAM wins the championship, not the best player... If Lebron got his Pippen and Rodman, Kukoc, Phil Jackson and so on.... im sure he could have won a championship aswell.......

4. Jordan didnt shrink? (He actually did perform under his standards in a bunch of series, will be glad to drop you some facts if you want)
In terms of PPG? Ofcourse not... unlike Lebron, Jordan made sure he chucked at least 25-30 FGA every game.... Lebron is more of a point-forward, when he is not in offensive rythm.. he doesnt chuck.... Jordan did, kindof similar to Kobe in that way.......
and how can you play good and lose a game?? there is no such thing..... you can have good stats and lose a game.... but thats another topic...
But to lose a series/game means Jordan most probably played bad in the 4th/clutch or simply couldnt do it enough to close out the games/series......
Jordan didnt either have the likes of Wade & Bosh to grab away his shot attempts.....

[SpecialQue]

its a ****in RETARDED thread to begin with

http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/11/4/128702955839048317.jpg

[Scholar]

The title of this thread should be "ITT: We start off saying LBJ cannot be compared to MJ but then we bring KB24 into the discussion for no reason."

[chazzy]

Jordan didnt either have the likes of Wade & Bosh to grab away his shot attempts.....
:oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

And that's why LeBron's career is so hard to judge. He won plenty of games in Cleveland, and yet his team's routinely failed to get to the Finals. Did he cause those teams to overachieve or do you blame him for not leading them to the Finals despite dominating the regular season? What about last season? Do you praise him for leading the Heat to the Finals or dock him for taking a backseat to Wade and appearing not to care?

Its really not hard. You give Lebron credit for overachieving hugely overall on the Cavs. You hammer him for his weird game against Boston in 2010....and you hammer him for his dreadful finals last year.

You simply can't blame Lebron for not winning it on those Cavs teams. They weren't championship contending teams. What other players in NBA history would you expect to lead those Cavs teams to titles?

MJ and Wilt? Maybe...maybe the only other players in history that they might challenge for titles in some of those years.

I really don't see anybody else. Bird and Magic? Nope. Kareem? Nope. Russell? Nope. Shaq and Duncan? Nope. Hakeem? Maybe they make a great run or something, but it wouldn't be expected. Kobe? Nope.

Its just not fair to hold Lebron to a standard that pretty much every all time great could not be fairly held to.

Blame Lebron for his crap game in 2010 against Boston and for his awful finals....then we go from there. But this idea that Lebron has had all these great chances to win titles is simply not true. Last year was his only year in which he had a legit championship team around him....



And....rookie Lebron would start on every single team in the league. Not even a question. You find a place for guys like him. I can't believe people are debating that. Its the ****ing NBA....not high school. You play the best players that can help your team the most. Rookie Lebron was a clear NBA starter....Rookie Kobe simply wasn't.

[pauk]

:oldlol:

Before his 27-28 age... he really didnt.... :confusedshrug: Not even after that, he had only Pippen as a modest sidekick taking like 10-15 FGA... While Jordan was averaging up to 28 FGA...

Lebron averages 19 FGA... and still averages 29 ppg... while having Wade who averages 17 FGA and Bosh who averages 15 FGA...

Lebron is more closer to Magic rather than Jordan in terms of gamestyle at that size and so on anyways... Kobe is more like Jordan in terms of scoring/chucking shots mindset, obviously not even close to that Jordan efficiency/talent level but ok...

Different topic but anyways

[Dengness9]

1. When people say "Jordan didnt had a ring until he was 27-28" they mean that Lebron has time to achieve those accomplishments aswell... because it is the age that is the countdown... not how many NBA seasons you played... its the age that is the problem...

2. Lebron had 3 years NBA experience in a scrub team... and Jordan had 3 years College/NCAA Championship experience....... i would think from a basketball standpoint Jordan had better basketball experience at similar age coming in to the NBA...

3. NBA experience will help you as a player... but will not win you championship... BEST TEAM wins the championship, not the best player... If Lebron got his Pippen and Rodman, Kukoc, Phil Jackson and so on.... im sure he could have won a championship aswell.......

4. Jordan didnt shrink? (He actually did perform under his standards in a bunch of series, will be glad to drop you some facts if you want)
In terms of PPG? Ofcourse not... unlike Lebron, Jordan made sure he chucked at least 25-30 FGA every game.... Lebron is more of a point-forward, when he is not in offensive rythm.. he doesnt chuck.... Jordan did, kindof similar to Kobe in that way.......
and how can you play good and lose a game?? there is no such thing..... you can have good stats and lose a game.... but thats another topic...
But to lose a series/game means Jordan most probably played bad in the 4th/clutch or simply couldnt do it enough to close out the games/series......
Jordan didnt either have the likes of Wade & Bosh to grab away his shot attempts.....


Worst post of thread.

So many petty/pathetic/false excuses.

Lebron has a top 3 player on his team and an All-Star top 15 PF on his team. No excuses.

Up to this point Lebrons career is a massive failure. Stats don't mean shit if you can't win the big games.

Lefraud is the modern day Wilt in that aspect.

[kennethgriffin]

kenneth, 32Dayz & kblaze ruined this thread


broke or made better?

i took a lebron/jordan debate and made it realistic by turning it into a lebron/eddie jones debate

so if anything i saved it from being tossed asside like most threads where lebron doesnt have any right being mentiond in the same sentance as jordan. let alone kobe or anyone else with actual achivements

[Dragonyeuw]

jordan had to wait for Magic, Bird and isaih to be past their primes to get a chance

[/B]

Isiah was 30 year old, and the Pistons were the defending champs when the Bulls swept them. Neither Isiah, or the Pistons, were out of their prime.

Magic wasn't 87 Magic, but he was the prior season's MVP when the Bulls beat LA in 91. He wasn't exactly chopped liver, either.

Bird's Celtics, and Bird himself, were well past their prime by the time Jordan had a good enough TEAM to contend.

[kennethgriffin]

Isiah was 30 year old, and the Pistons were the defending champs when the Bulls swept them. Neither Isiah, or the Pistons, were out of their prime.

Magic wasn't 87 Magic, but he was the prior season's MVP when the Bulls beat LA in 91. He wasn't exactly chopped liver, either.

Bird's Celtics, and Bird himself, were well past their prime by the time Jordan had a good enough TEAM to contend.


1990-91 isiah played half a season due to injury

never recovered... playoff average dipped from 20/5/8 on 46% to 13/4/8 on 40%

87 was his last all nba team

[tikay0]

ummm.....I hope you realize lebron came in when he was in highschool, so of course he hasnt won anything at the same age as Michael. He's been in the league one more year than Michael, and still hasn't gotten a ring. All things considered, he's still a great player, and he still has plenty of time to get a ring.

[guy]

you are making a pretty wild generalisation as to the motivations of all the people who have pointed out this trivial fact.

personally, i think its possible that lebron wins plenty of championships. i dont know how likely it is, but its possible.

and i think most people who point this out think the same thing

i dont know, maybe you are ranting about a small minority of dumb posters that i dont pay attention to (and maybe if they are so dumb, you should ignore them too?)

This is what alot of people have said. Not just on message boards, but I've heard it in the media as well.

[guy]

1. When people say "Jordan didnt had a ring until he was 27-28" they mean that Lebron has time to achieve those accomplishments aswell... because it is the age that is the countdown... not how many NBA seasons you played... its the age that is the problem...

Mileage and age contributes to it. Your right that he does have some time, but when people compare it to Jordan's situation it implies a great deal of confidence that ignores the fact that Lebron has had alot more seasons then Jordan had up until this age, which means he's had more chances and failed and he has more mileage then Jordan did meaning he might not have as much time left as Jordan did at this point. It ignores the fact that Lebron had more seasons and better teams and failed and his failures have been much worse



2. Lebron had 3 years NBA experience in a scrub team... and Jordan had 3 years College/NCAA Championship experience....... i would think from a basketball standpoint Jordan had better basketball experience at similar age coming in to the NBA...

Coming into the NBA? Meaning Jordan at 21 and Lebron at 18? Sure. But no way does Jordan have more experience then Lebron through age 26. And you act like Jordan didn't waste much of his career through that age on scrub teams.



3. NBA experience will help you as a player... but will not win you championship... BEST TEAM wins the championship, not the best player... If Lebron got his Pippen and Rodman, Kukoc, Phil Jackson and so on.... im sure he could have won a championship aswell.......

LOL. How about Wade and Bosh? You know, a player that actually has led a team to a title? The 2009 Cavs, 2010 Cavs and 2011 Heat were easily better then any team Jordan from 1984 to 1989, which was when he turned 26. At the same age, Lebron has played more seasons and had better teams.



4. Jordan didnt shrink? (He actually did perform under his standards in a bunch of series, will be glad to drop you some facts if you want)
In terms of PPG? Ofcourse not... unlike Lebron, Jordan made sure he chucked at least 25-30 FGA every game.... Lebron is more of a point-forward, when he is not in offensive rythm.. he doesnt chuck.... Jordan did, kindof similar to Kobe in that way.......
and how can you play good and lose a game?? there is no such thing..... you can have good stats and lose a game.... but thats another topic...
But to lose a series/game means Jordan most probably played bad in the 4th/clutch or simply couldnt do it enough to close out the games/series......
Jordan didnt either have the likes of Wade & Bosh to grab away his shot attempts.....

Jordan's had bad series, but he never shrank, choked, disappeared, played like he didn't care, and played in fear in the majority of a series the way Lebron has the past 2 seasons against the Celtics in 2010 and Mavs in 2011. There's a difference between just having a bad series and doing what Lebron the last 2 years. I would say Lebron had bad series in 2007 vs. the Spurs and 2008 vs. the Celtics, but I wouldn't say he choked or any of the other things I said. One is a question of effort and leadership, which has a huge effect on the rest of the team, the other isn't.

[97 bulls]

1990-91 isiah played half a season due to injury

never recovered... playoff average dipped from 20/5/8 on 46% to 13/4/8 on 40%

87 was his last all nba team
This is flawed reasoning. Your point would be valid if the bulls beat the pistons in 7 closely contested games. The bulls swept the pistons. With 2 of the first 3 games not really being close. The pistons realized they weren't good enough to beat the bulls and basically gave up in game 4.


Not even prime isiah thomas was good enough to swing that series that far.

[PTB Fan]

Its really not hard. You give Lebron credit for overachieving hugely overall on the Cavs. You hammer him for his weird game against Boston in 2010....and you hammer him for his dreadful finals last year.

You simply can't blame Lebron for not winning it on those Cavs teams. They weren't championship contending teams. What other players in NBA history would you expect to lead those Cavs teams to titles?

MJ and Wilt? Maybe...maybe the only other players in history that they might challenge for titles in some of those years.

I really don't see anybody else. Bird and Magic? Nope. Kareem? Nope. Russell? Nope. Shaq and Duncan? Nope. Hakeem? Maybe they make a great run or something, but it wouldn't be expected. Kobe? Nope.

Its just not fair to hold Lebron to a standard that pretty much every all time great could not be fairly held to.

Blame Lebron for his crap game in 2010 against Boston and for his awful finals....then we go from there. But this idea that Lebron has had all these great chances to win titles is simply not true. Last year was his only year in which he had a legit championship team around him....



And....rookie Lebron would start on every single team in the league. Not even a question. You find a place for guys like him. I can't believe people are debating that. Its the ****ing NBA....not high school. You play the best players that can help your team the most. Rookie Lebron was a clear NBA starter....Rookie Kobe simply wasn't.

:applause:

[SacJB Shady]

Hey GUY, just remember this... Talkin about failures... ''I failed and failed many times. And that is why I succeed.''

[guy]

Its really not hard. You give Lebron credit for overachieving hugely overall on the Cavs. You hammer him for his weird game against Boston in 2010....and you hammer him for his dreadful finals last year.

You simply can't blame Lebron for not winning it on those Cavs teams. They weren't championship contending teams. What other players in NBA history would you expect to lead those Cavs teams to titles?

MJ and Wilt? Maybe...maybe the only other players in history that they might challenge for titles in some of those years.

I really don't see anybody else. Bird and Magic? Nope. Kareem? Nope. Russell? Nope. Shaq and Duncan? Nope. Hakeem? Maybe they make a great run or something, but it wouldn't be expected. Kobe? Nope.

Its just not fair to hold Lebron to a standard that pretty much every all time great could not be fairly held to.

Blame Lebron for his crap game in 2010 against Boston and for his awful finals....then we go from there. But this idea that Lebron has had all these great chances to win titles is simply not true. Last year was his only year in which he had a legit championship team around him....



And....rookie Lebron would start on every single team in the league. Not even a question. You find a place for guys like him. I can't believe people are debating that. Its the ****ing NBA....not high school. You play the best players that can help your team the most. Rookie Lebron was a clear NBA starter....Rookie Kobe simply wasn't.

He hasn't had a lot of chances. But he's had significantly better chances then Jordan did up until that age and regardless of what they've had around him, Lebron hasn't shown that he has anywhere close to the mentality to win that Jordan had.

[cteach111]

He hasn't had a lot of chances. But he's had significantly better chances then Jordan did up until that age and regardless of what they've had around him, Lebron hasn't shown that he has anywhere close to the mentality to win that Jordan had.

Most people here don't really care that he's failed guy because the truth is.. is that he still has time to make that up. He's 27 years old; still younger than Jordan was when he won his first title. That's all the supporters care about. People only believe he has time to rack up the titles because Jordan racked up the titles at a later stage in his career. That's all there is to it.

I can't really argue with those facts either. I just don't think the Miami experiment will play out like so many think here.

[The_Yearning]

I just want to know what the hardcore Lebron fans going to say when he fails to win it this year. Oh but wait, he has 1 year left to turn 28 before his Jordan Countdown is up.

:facepalm

Jordan never lost lateral drive quickness at 28.

[jrong]

Most people here don't really care that he's failed guy because the truth is.. is that he still has time to make that up. He's 27 years old; still younger than Jordan was when he won his first title. That's all the supporters care about. People only believe he has time to rack up the titles because Jordan racked up the titles at a later stage in his career. That's all there is to it.

I can't really argue with those facts either. I just don't think the Miami experiment will play out like so many think here.

But, there is simply no basis for EVER comparing LeBron to Jordan at this point. At all. Jordan got it done in his 7th year. LeBron is on his 9th. Jordan never lost a Finals. James not only is 0-2, but completely failed to distinguish himself in his first Finals and then deserves the majority of the blame for the loss in the second.

On top of that, I would argue that MJ never had a legitimate chance to win a title before 1991. Maybe they get past the Bad Boys in 1990 if Scottie doesn't have his migraine game in Game 7.

LeBron, on the other hand has had the chance to win titles since 2008. The Cavs would have beaten the Celtics if James hadn't shot 36% for the series and particularly 2/18 in Game 1. If they had won as they should've, CLE would've rematched the Pistons in the ECFs and then faced the Lakers against whom they were 2-0 that year.

Then in 2010 and 2011, of course, he just went AWOL in Game 5 of the Celtics series where he had homecourt and went AWOL for 5 games in the mother****ing NBA Finals in 2011.

Jordan, by contrast, has zero failures in terms of performance in the playoffs, or perhaps one first-round series early in his career that qualifies. But, LeBron's so-far blunderous playoff resume disqualifies him from any comparison to the GOAT.

[PTB Fan]

I just want to know what the hardcore Lebron fans going to say when he fails to win it this year. Oh but wait, he has 1 year left to turn 28 before his Jordan Countdown is up.

:facepalm

Jordan never lost lateral drive quickness at 28.

This is true.

Although i'm a big LeBron fan, his position and Jordan's were definitely not the same.

And they're mostly different in their mentality. If LeBron doesn't win a title this year... he'll barely sniff top 10 no matter what does he do. It's the right time where he has to prove is he a legend or just a really great player..

[PTB Fan]

But, there is simply no basis for EVER comparing LeBron to Jordan at this point. At all. Jordan got it done in his 7th year. LeBron is on his 9th. Jordan never lost a Finals. James not only is 0-2, but completely failed to distinguish himself in his first Finals and then deserves the majority of the blame for the loss in the second.

On top of that, I would argue that MJ never had a legitimate chance to win a title before 1991. Maybe they get past the Bad Boys in 1990 if Scottie doesn't have his migraine game in Game 7.

LeBron, on the other hand has had the chance to win titles since 2008. The Cavs would have beaten the Celtics if James hadn't shot 36% for the series and particularly 2/18 in Game 1. If they had won as they should've, CLE would've rematched the Pistons in the ECFs and then faced the Lakers against whom they were 2-0 that year.

Then in 2010 and 2011, of course, he just went AWOL in Game 5 of the Celtics series where he had homecourt and went AWOL for 5 games in the mother****ing NBA Finals in 2011.

Jordan, by contrast, has zero failures in terms of performance in the playoffs, or perhaps one first-round series early in his career that qualifies. But, LeBron's so-far blunderous playoff resume disqualifies him from any comparison to the GOAT.

Fair points, expect the last part.

James has failed in the Finals vs the Mavericks (no excuse here), Game 5 of the 2010 playoffs where he basically quit and that's about it. Jordan has put a bad series for his standard in 85, when he faced the best perimeter (and arguably overall) defender in his prime, Sidney Moncrief and was just a rookie.

Since i give pass to LeBron about his 07 Finals, where he led a not so great team to the Finals, i give Jordan the pass here as well.

[bwink23]

the question here isn't about Lebron and Jordan...it's about Lebron still being able to cement his legacy with mulitple championships.

[cteach111]

But, there is simply no basis for EVER comparing LeBron to Jordan at this point. At all. Jordan got it done in his 7th year. LeBron is on his 9th. Jordan never lost a Finals. James not only is 0-2, but completely failed to distinguish himself in his first Finals and then deserves the majority of the blame for the loss in the second.

On top of that, I would argue that MJ never had a legitimate chance to win a title before 1991. Maybe they get past the Bad Boys in 1990 if Scottie doesn't have his migraine game in Game 7.

LeBron, on the other hand has had the chance to win titles since 2008. The Cavs would have beaten the Celtics if James hadn't shot 36% for the series and particularly 2/18 in Game 1. If they had won as they should've, CLE would've rematched the Pistons in the ECFs and then faced the Lakers against whom they were 2-0 that year.

Then in 2010 and 2011, of course, he just went AWOL in Game 5 of the Celtics series where he had homecourt and went AWOL for 5 games in the mother****ing NBA Finals in 2011.

Jordan, by contrast, has zero failures in terms of performance in the playoffs, or perhaps one first-round series early in his career that qualifies. But, LeBron's so-far blunderous playoff resume disqualifies him from any comparison to the GOAT.

You make some good points. I don't really agree that he failed in 2008/2009. However you can definitely point to specific instances in 2010/2011.

The point is though that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter because he's still young enough to turn things around. Those are the facts and that's all that really matters. His failures don't mean much at this point when you compare him to Jordan.

You continue to say "so far" and "at this point" which only reaffirms what I've been saying. Lebron still has time. :confusedshrug:

[Oositdwn]

I want to know why people (not just Lebron fans) jump the gun when they mention championships. Let's see if he can even win one championship and a FMVP yet alone multiple.

[guy]

Most people here don't really care that he's failed guy because the truth is.. is that he still has time to make that up. He's 27 years old; still younger than Jordan was when he won his first title. That's all the supporters care about. People only believe he has time to rack up the titles because Jordan racked up the titles at a later stage in his career. That's all there is to it.

I can't really argue with those facts either. I just don't think the Miami experiment will play out like so many think here.

I really wouldn't say Jordan racked up titles at a later stage of his career though. He won in his 7th season. Lebron's in his 9th now.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Lol @ all these insecure Lebron fans that feel the need to bring up any and all of Kobe's failures to diminish the fact that Lebron outside of the regular season hasn't really accomplished much.

The difference between Lebron & Kobe fans is simple..
Kobe fans have to argue about why Kobe isn't the GOAT, Lebron fans have to argue over why Lebron has yet to win anything.

[pegasus]

Lol @ all these insecure Lebron fans that feel the need to bring up any and all of Kobe's failures to diminish the fact that Lebron outside of the regular season hasn't really accomplished much.

The difference between Lebron & Kobe fans is simple..
Kobe fans have to argue about why Kobe isn't the GOAT, Lebron fans have to argue over why Lebron has yet to win anything.

:lol :lol

So true:applause:

[quick96]

Lol @ all these insecure Lebron fans that feel the need to bring up any and all of Kobe's failures to diminish the fact that Lebron outside of the regular season hasn't really accomplished much.

The difference between Lebron & Kobe fans is simple..
Kobe fans have to argue about why Kobe isn't the GOAT, Lebron fans have to argue over why Lebron has yet to win anything.


You hit the nail on the head. You can't make it anymore clearer than that.

:banana: