What's the difference between Kobe amount of shot attempts and Jordan?

[Micku]

Basketball analysts and some fans would say that Kobe doesn't get his teammates involve because he takes too many shots. He doesn't trust his teammates or he is selfish.

Michael Jordan average more shot attempts than Kobe in his career, and Kobe is still criticize for shooting too much at times. I know that Jordan was also criticize for taking too many shots early in his career because people thought Jordan should get his teammates involve more and score less like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. But once the Bulls started to win championships, the talk of his shot attempts started to die down.

Even when they compared Kobe to Jordan when Kobe played in the 90s, they talked about could Kobe shoot as much as Jordan. But they thought it was difficult because Shaq was already on the team and he took about 18-20 shots per game. And Jordan took about around 23 shots per game. And people keep praising Jordan's ability to score at a old age, and down his teammates at times when the offense dies when he wasn't in the game.

You fast forward into the future where Kobe play style is very similar to 2nd 3peat Jordan, and they take around the same shots. Right now Kobe is shooting about 25 shots a game, but people do criticize him for taking too many shots. Granted 2nd 3peat Jordan didn't take that many shots, but the season isn't over yet for Kobe, so it will adjust.

So, what's the difference between Jordan shot attempts and Kobe?

At first I thought it was because Jordan shot selection was better than Kobe. From what I watched of Jordan, he didn't iso and dribble to a corner and take a tough shot as often as Kobe. Instead, he post up, come off screens and do catch and shoot. And I thought that Jordan was better at finding the open man than Kobe is.

Jordan just got better shots than Kobe, and you could see that through his FG% and efficiency I guess. I think that Jordan flowed better with the offense. Knowing when to pass and getting good shots for himself more often than Kobe.

But with that said, I dunno if that's a significant difference between 2nd 3peat Jordan and Kobe of today. If Kobe could take that many shots, and do it at a pretty standard efficiency, why criticize that much if Jordan did the same thing? Or is it that Jordan did more of the little things on the court better than Kobe that made it more ok?

What do you guys think?

[guy]

1. Jordan's better
2. Jordan never had efficient big men that he could just dump it down the way Kobe has for almost his whole career.

[rule1223]

ppl cant accept the fact that someone has succeeded their childhood hero, when someone comes along in the future thats better than kobe, i wont be happy but i wont dedicate my life to criticizing and hating that player

[bwink23]

Basketball analysts and some fans would say that Kobe doesn't get his teammates involve because he takes too many shots. He doesn't trust his teammates or he is selfish.

Michael Jordan average more shot attempts than Kobe in his career, and Kobe is still criticize for shooting too much at times. I know that Jordan was also criticize for taking too many shots early in his career because people thought Jordan should get his teammates involve more and score less like Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. But once the Bulls started to win championships, the talk of his shot attempts started to die down.

Even when they compared Kobe to Jordan when Kobe played in the 90s, they talked about could Kobe shoot as much as Jordan. But they thought it was difficult because Shaq was already on the team and he took about 18-20 shots per game. And Jordan took about around 23 shots per game. And people keep praising Jordan's ability to score at a old age, and down his teammates at times when the offense dies when he wasn't in the game.

You fast forward into the future where Kobe play style is very similar to 2nd 3peat Jordan, and they take around the same shots. Right now Kobe is shooting about 25 shots a game, but people do criticize him for taking too many shots. Granted 2nd 3peat Jordan didn't take that many shots, but the season isn't over yet for Kobe, so it will adjust.

So, what's the difference between Jordan shot attempts and Kobe?

At first I thought it was because Jordan shot selection was better than Kobe. From what I watched of Jordan, he didn't iso and dribble to a corner and take a tough shot as often as Kobe. Instead, he post up, come off screens and do catch and shoot. And I thought that Jordan was better at finding the open man than Kobe is.

Jordan just got better shots than Kobe, and you could see that through his FG% and efficiency I guess. I think that Jordan flowed better with the offense. Knowing when to pass and getting good shots for himself more often than Kobe.

But with that said, I dunno if that's a significant difference between 2nd 3peat Jordan and Kobe of today. If Kobe could take that many shots, and do it at a pretty standard efficiency, why criticize that much if Jordan did the same thing? Or is it that Jordan did more of the little things on the court better than Kobe that made it more ok?

What do you guys think?


There's a distinct difference in how and where they shoot. Jordan's gets his shots in the triangle while Kobe would often venture outside the triangle and stagnate the offense. With 96-98 Jordan playing the post role of the big man, the offense went through him most of the time, while Kobe has to play more of the facilitator role in the offense...i think people see it as...Kobe has 2 of the best big men in the game to dump the ball down to, to establish a low-post game which turn can open up the floor for the wings for better quality shots. Kobe often times abandons that and takes the game out on the perimeter far too often.

[bwink23]

ppl cant accept the fact that someone has succeeded their childhood hero, when someone comes along in the future thats better than kobe, i wont be happy but i wont dedicate my life to criticizing and hating that player



DENIAL is an UGLY thing for you tards.....:rolleyes:

[andgar923]

I think earlier on the criticism was justified.

Kobe took plenty of forced and bad shots, most of them coming outside of the offense and flow of the game, in other words he was going for his.

MJ wasn't perfect, but he was far better at playing within the flow of the game, and taking better/smarter shots. MJ didn't force the issue as much as Kobe even when he was going for big numbers. Another difference between the two is that MJ even while in scoring mode was more willing to play other aspects of the game more frequently/consistently. Kobe appears to abandon every other aspect and concentrate solely on scoring. Again... Kobe appears to have changed somewhat from his earlier days, and matured as a decision maker.

Most of us have stressed repeatedly that one of the biggest differences between MJ and Kobe and why MJ was more successful, was MJ's superior IQ/shot selection.

Kobe has been inconsistent in these aspects, at times displaying a mature mindset and unselfish decision making, and then play an entire stretch that leaves one thinking "what happened to the Kobe of 1 minute ago?" Jekyll and Hyde kobe is.

[BlackJoker23]

kobe is better by a lot. mj never had the ability to create his own shot at the level of kobe. if u watch kobe play, he creates a lot more on his own and gets double teamed a lot more. mj just had an elite playmaker like pippen that could get him the ball and he could just post up and shoot. mj just couldnt create as many shots as kobe. its a big difference in their skillsets

[andgar923]

kobe is better by a lot. mj never had the ability to create his own shot at the level of kobe. if u watch kobe play, he creates a lot more on his own and gets double teamed a lot more. mj just had an elite playmaker like pippen that could get him the ball and he could just post up and shoot. mj just couldnt create as many shots as kobe. its a big difference in their skillsets

Oh shit, no white text... he's serious.

[jstern]

I think it's because Jordan wasn't taking awkward fade away 3s with his teammates open. More within the offense, teammates more involved than Kobe's. Also style, Kobe tends to dribble more, Jordan was more of one quick step, wide open shot, which was faster and much more efficient. (Kobe said that when comparing both of their games. Not the more efficient part, that's my opinion, but the style difference.) Kobe has to work a little harder to get a shot off.

[bwink23]

kobe is better by a lot. mj never had the ability to create his own shot at the level of kobe. if u watch kobe play, he creates a lot more on his own and gets double teamed a lot more. mj just had an elite playmaker like pippen that could get him the ball and he could just post up and shoot. mj just couldnt create as many shots as kobe. its a big difference in their skillsets


:facepalm :facepalm ...........:no:

[Glide2keva]

Because Jordan shot 50% from the field while Kobe has never sniffed it for a season. Ever.

[bwink23]

In one big nutshell...




Jordan didn't settle.

[jstern]

kobe is better by a lot. mj never had the ability to create his own shot at the level of kobe. if u watch kobe play, he creates a lot more on his own and gets double teamed a lot more. mj just had an elite playmaker like pippen that could get him the ball and he could just post up and shoot. mj just couldnt create as many shots as kobe. its a big difference in their skillsets

Did you even watch Jordan play? This is why some people start rooting against Kobe, because of 15 year old Kobe fans and their opinion based on absolutely nothing.

The number one thing that impressed me the most about Jordan was his ability to create his own shot. That's the number one thing that impressed me the most as I tried to copy his moves. Then in 2003 I read Dennis Rodman's book, and he said that what impressed him the most about Jordan, and what impresses anyone who knows about basketball the most about Jordan is not the ppg, etc, but his ability to create shots.

[Collie]

Because Kobe has a tendency to force shots. While he is a great great scorer, he gets these moments where he keeps jacking up shot after shot even with defenses draped all over him. Now it doesn't happen very often, since he's such a good scorer that he rarely has terrible shooting games - but when it does happen people tend to notice it.

MJ shot a lot, but they were in the flow of the offense. When I watch his bad shooting games, they were pretty much good shots that just don't go in. Watch the 96 Finals for an example of this.

[rule1223]

Did you even watch Jordan play? This is why some people start rooting against Kobe, because of 15 year old Kobe fans and their opinion based on absolutely nothing.

The number one thing that impressed me the most about Jordan was his ability to create his own shot. That's the number one thing that impressed me the most as I tried to copy his moves. Then in 2003 I read Dennis Rodman's book, and he said that what impressed him the most about Jordan, and what impresses anyone who knows about basketball the most about Jordan is not the ppg, etc, but his ability to create shots.
cuz he was guarded by scrubs, wasnt even one good defender in his era, with his handles in todays game hed get picked 4-5 times a game trying to create srs

[bwink23]

cuz he was guarded by scrubs, wasnt even one good defender in his era, with his handles in todays game hed get picked 4-5 times a game trying to create srs


NOT EVEN CLOSE....Jordan's huge hands and ball control is a STAPLE of his game...NO ONE can guard Jordan today under these rules.

[BlackJoker23]

Did you even watch Jordan play? This is why some people start rooting against Kobe, because of 15 year old Kobe fans and their opinion based on absolutely nothing.

The number one thing that impressed me the most about Jordan was his ability to create his own shot. That's the number one thing that impressed me the most as I tried to copy his moves. Then in 2003 I read Dennis Rodman's book, and he said that what impressed him the most about Jordan, and what impresses anyone who knows about basketball the most about Jordan is not the ppg, etc, but his ability to create shots.
the only reason he could somewhat create his shot and i say this moderately is because of how bad the defense was. the guy had no handle, was bailed by the refs and drew the most phantom fouls of anyone this side of dwade 06. dont forget about the size advantages he had over the weak sgs of his era allowing him to post them up or just rise over them since they cant bother his shot. lol at some of the defenses he faced like the 98 jazz shooting 42%.

[andgar923]

cuz he was guarded by scrubs, wasnt even one good defender in his era, with his handles in todays game hed get picked 4-5 times a game trying to create srs

Assuming you're serious....

I'm gonna play along, cause well.. I'm bored.

Assuming that Mj didn't have any handles at all.

He didn't need them.

If we transposed MJ into today's era, he wouldn't need them cause he'd just blow by everybody, specially under today's rules. There will be nothing nobody would be able to do to guard him. No crossover needed, he'd just go.

How fast was MJ during his physical prime? Kobe at his fastest was equal to MJ during the late 90s.

And oh yeah..... he sure as hell wasn't getting ripped when he was a Wiz. His old school 'simple' crossover was more than effective.

[Leviathon1121]

the only reason he could somewhat create his shot and i say this moderately is because of how bad the defense was. the guy had no handle, was bailed by the refs and drew the most phantom fouls of anyone this side of dwade 06. dont forget about the size advantages he had over the weak sgs of his era allowing him to post them up or just rise over them since they cant bother his shot. lol at some of the defenses he faced like the 98 jazz shooting 42%.

Michael Jordan averaged .35 foul shots per shot attempt for his career.

Kobe Bryant averages .39 foul shots per shot attempt while having been much more of a jumpshooter for the majority of his career.

Interesting no?

Incoming lame excuse I am sure.

[Micku]

I think earlier on the criticism was justified.

Kobe took plenty of forced and bad shots, most of them coming outside of the offense and flow of the game, in other words he was going for his.

MJ wasn't perfect, but he was far better at playing within the flow of the game, and taking better/smarter shots. MJ didn't force the issue as much as Kobe even when he was going for big numbers. Another difference between the two is that MJ even while in scoring mode was more willing to play other aspects of the game more frequently/consistently. Kobe appears to abandon every other aspect and concentrate solely on scoring. Again... Kobe appears to have changed somewhat from his earlier days, and matured as a decision maker.

Most of us have stressed repeatedly that one of the biggest differences between MJ and Kobe and why MJ was more successful, was MJ's superior IQ/shot selection.

Kobe has been inconsistent in these aspects, at times displaying a mature mindset and unselfish decision making, and then play an entire stretch that leaves one thinking "what happened to the Kobe of 1 minute ago?" Jekyll and Hyde kobe is.

lol @ Kobe being like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. That's totally true.

True on all points really. Like even when Michael Jordan scored a bunch of points, but most of the time it seemed to be within the flow of the offense while Kobe would dribble out of the triangle and out of the flow of the game.

Also, like what Guy and bwink23 said, Kobe does have low post scorers. Jordan Bulls never had a offensive frontline talent like Kobe has. I forgot to mention that in my OP post.

[bwink23]

the only reason he could somewhat create his shot and i say this moderately is because of how bad the defense was. the guy had no handle, was bailed by the refs and drew the most phantom fouls of anyone this side of dwade 06. dont forget about the size advantages he had over the weak sgs of his era allowing him to post them up or just rise over them since they cant bother his shot. lol at some of the defenses he faced like the 98 jazz shooting 42%.


Jordan as a Wizard with 23.9ppg on 47%FG in 75% of the games he played in....in a league with a 44%FG average.


I'm pretty sure prime Air Jordan would rip this league apart.

[rule1223]

Assuming you're serious....

I'm gonna play along, cause well.. I'm bored.

Assuming that Mj didn't have any handles at all.

He didn't need them.

If we transposed MJ into today's era, he wouldn't need them cause he'd just blow by everybody, specially under today's rules. There will be nothing nobody would be able to do to guard him. No crossover needed, he'd just go.

How fast was MJ during his physical prime? Kobe at his fastest was equal to MJ during the late 90s.

And oh yeah..... he sure as hell wasn't getting ripped when he was a Wiz. His old school 'simple' crossover was more than effective.
this is wat the average defender in the nba today is like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni7t4swtdYw

[Asukal]

Because Kobe has a tendency to force shots. While he is a great great scorer, he gets these moments where he keeps jacking up shot after shot even with defenses draped all over him. Now it doesn't happen very often, since he's such a good scorer that he rarely has terrible shooting games - but when it does happen people tend to notice it.

MJ shot a lot, but they were in the flow of the offense. When I watch his bad shooting games, they were pretty much good shots that just don't go in. Watch the 96 Finals for an example of this.

This. People tend to credit Payton for Jordan's inefficiency in the 96 finals but truth is Jordan missed a lot of open shots. :cheers:

LOL@ all the idiots who says Jordan has no handles. Jordan has lesser turnovers per game than Kobe. :facepalm

[andgar923]

this is wat the average defender in the nba today is like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni7t4swtdYw

You wanna start posting vids?

Wiz vids have already destroyed the myth that Mj couldn't play in today's era. Something some of the biggest Kobe homers have already abandoned.

[BlackJoker23]

mj only had less turnovers because he didnt handle the ball as much and didnt have the ability to do so. kobe doesnt have the luxury of a pippen to run point forward and play to his strengths. mj doesnt draw as much defensive attention because of advanced defenses of today and kobes elite skill level which adds to tos. dont forget that bringing the ball up the floor takes more energy too so mj could basically rest on offense until he gets the ball, take advantage of the midget defender and shoot over him.

[keepinitreal]

1. Jordan's better
2. Jordan never had efficient big men that he could just dump it down the way Kobe has for almost his whole career.

Hmmmmmmmmm

[rule1223]

You wanna start posting vids?

Wiz vids have already destroyed the myth that Mj couldn't play in today's era. Something some of the biggest Kobe homers have already abandoned.
if you were playing against an old man would you go all out? its almost as pathetic as going all out against a kid or a girl, if you think the defenders were playing defense with the same intensity against jordan as they were for the rest of the league, you're delusional

[Asukal]

if you were playing against an old man would you go all out? its almost as pathetic as going all out against a kid or a girl, if you think the defenders were playing defense with the same intensity against jordan as they were for the rest of the league, you're delusional

HAHAHAHAHA! OMG! The idiocy of this post is hilarious! :roll:

Jordan was 40, lets take it easy on him hahahahahaha! :roll:

[bwink23]

this is wat the average defender in the nba today is like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni7t4swtdYw




LOL at pulling up ONE game....this was Jordan's statline in 18 games featuring Reggie Lewis when Reggie was getting playing time...

34.3ppg on 54.9%FG.....ANY QUESTIONS????

[rule1223]

LOL at pulling up ONE game....this was Jordan's statline in 18 games featuring Reggie Lewis when Reggie was getting playing time...

34.3ppg on 54.9%FG.....ANY QUESTIONS????
i didnt say that guy was a good defender dumbass, i said thats how the average defender is today, if jordan played in todays era thats what would happen night in night out and even worse when he plays elite defenders

[bwink23]

mj only had less turnovers because he didnt handle the ball as much and didnt have the ability to do so. kobe doesnt have the luxury of a pippen to run point forward and play to his strengths. mj doesnt draw as much defensive attention because of advanced defenses of today and kobes elite skill level which adds to tos. dont forget that bringing the ball up the floor takes more energy too so mj could basically rest on offense until he gets the ball, take advantage of the midget defender and shoot over him.


Jordan at his peak had a higher usage rate than Kobe ever did. Saying Kobe has his hand on the ball more than Jordan is LAUGHABLE at best.

[andgar923]

i didnt say that guy was a good defender dumbass, i said thats how the average defender is today, if jordan played in todays era thats what would happen night in night out and even worse when he plays elite defenders

Yet he still didn't really get blocked as a Wiz.

Kobe in his prime has gotten blocked more than MJ did as a Wiz.

[bwink23]

i didnt say that guy was a good defender dumbass, i said thats how the average defender is today, if jordan played in todays era thats what would happen night in night out and even worse when he plays elite defenders


LIKE WHO??? RAJA BELL, LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Asukal]

mj only had less turnovers because he didnt handle the ball as much and didnt have the ability to do so. kobe doesnt have the luxury of a pippen to run point forward and play to his strengths. mj doesnt draw as much defensive attention because of advanced defenses of today and kobes elite skill level which adds to tos. dont forget that bringing the ball up the floor takes more energy too so mj could basically rest on offense until he gets the ball, take advantage of the midget defender and shoot over him.

Yah Kobe is such a great PG....... oh wait he never played that role hahahaha!

Jordan did tho and averaged 32/8/8, the defenses back then was so crappy they couldn't guard Jordan the PG with no handles hahaha! :roll:

[BlackJoker23]

Jordan at his peak had a higher usage rate than Kobe ever did. Saying Kobe has his hand on the ball more than Jordan is LAUGHABLE at best.
usage percent doesnt measure ball dominance idiot. jordan stans just dumb and dumber :facepalm. kobe handles the ball a lot more unlike jordan who had pippen doing lip service. jordan was just getting a lot of shots up because he had good looks which is more because of poor defense than his ability. bean also gets a lot more hockey assists when the ball swings after he gets trapped on the perimeter

[juju151111]

cuz he was guarded by scrubs, wasnt even one good defender in his era, with his handles in todays game hed get picked 4-5 times a game trying to create srs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp__LVQvC7M why do retarded post here ?

[Asukal]

usage percent doesnt measure ball dominance idiot. jordan stans just dumb and dumber :facepalm. kobe handles the ball a lot more unlike jordan who had pippen doing lip service. jordan was just getting a lot of shots up because he had good looks which is more because of poor defense than his ability. bean also gets a lot more hockey assists when the ball swings after he gets trapped on the perimeter

If Jordan stans are dumb, what are you? BRAINLESS!!!! HAHAHAHAAH! :roll:

[bwink23]

usage percent doesnt measure ball dominance idiot. jordan stans just dumb and dumber :facepalm. kobe handles the ball a lot more unlike jordan who had pippen doing lip service. jordan was just getting a lot of shots up because he had good looks which is more because of poor defense than his ability. bean also gets a lot more hockey assists when the ball swings after he gets trapped on the perimeter


NOT EVEN CLOSE....Jordan was THE MAN his entire career...Jordan took more shots, made more shots, for the first few years he WAS the offense.


Joe Dumars on the Bulls offense...."95% of the plays are for Michael Jordan, and the other 5%, end up in his hands anyway."


NEXT

[Asukal]

Michael Jordan is such a scrubby player I don't know why the NBA is still looking for the next Michael Jordan........ He's a scrub! :roll:

[BlackJoker23]

NOT EVEN CLOSE....Jordan was THE MAN his entire career...Jordan took more shots, made more shots, for the first few years he WAS the offense.


Joe Dumars on the Bulls offense...."95% of the plays are for Michael Jordan, and the other 5%, end up in his hands anyway."


NEXT
bad defense numbnuts. easy to get shots up when the defense cant contest u because of ur size advantage, guard u in the post and u cant double without the ball. creating your own shot is a skill that jordan didnt have at the level of kobe. fact.

jordan stans ruining basketball one post at a time


NEXT

[rule1223]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp__LVQvC7M why do retarded post here ?
look how nonchalant marion is moving on defense, he obviously respects jordan too much to go all out and embarrass him

[guy]

Jordan's lucky he got to face a 25 year old Jason Kidd and not get shut down by a defensive juggernaut 38 year old Jason Kidd.

[andgar923]

Jordan's lucky he got to face a 25 year old Jason Kidd and not get shut down by a defensive juggernaut 38 year old Jason Kidd.
clearly this

[bwink23]

usage percent doesnt measure ball dominance idiot. jordan stans just dumb and dumber :facepalm. kobe handles the ball a lot more unlike jordan who had pippen doing lip service. jordan was just getting a lot of shots up because he had good looks which is more because of poor defense than his ability. bean also gets a lot more hockey assists when the ball swings after he gets trapped on the perimeter


Here's Jordan's statline when he got moved to the point guard position for the last 24 games in 1989....


In these 24 games he averaged 29.3ppg, 8.9rpg, 10.6 apg, 2.4spg. Between March 24 and April 14, 1989, he recorded a triple double in ten of the eleven games, including seven consecutive ones. In the game he didn't record a TD, he finished with 40 points, 11 assists and 7 rebounds.


Kobe has NEVER done anything remotely close to that from an all-around game....NEXT

[I.R.Beast]

kobe is better by a lot. mj never had the ability to create his own shot at the level of kobe. if u watch kobe play, he creates a lot more on his own and gets double teamed a lot more. mj just had an elite playmaker like pippen that could get him the ball and he could just post up and shoot. mj just couldnt create as many shots as kobe. its a big difference in their skillsets

I think u may have just started a rapture on ISH

[bwink23]

bad defense numbnuts. easy to get shots up when the defense cant contest u because of ur size advantage, guard u in the post and u cant double without the ball. creating your own shot is a skill that jordan didnt have at the level of kobe. fact.

jordan stans ruining basketball one post at a time


NEXT


Jordan 41.0ppg being guarded by 6'6" Dan Majerle and 6,7" Richard Dumas.....in the NBA FINALS


Jordan over 35ppg on 6'7" Clyde Drexler...in the NBA Finals..

on over 52% FG.


NEXT.

[bwink23]

look how nonchalant marion is moving on defense, he obviously respects jordan too much to go all out and embarrass him


Oh i'm sure...these guys get paid millions to take it easy out there....:rolleyes:

Yet Jordan busted a game winner in his grill....and yet again in the All-Star game until that stupid foul call on Kobe.

[I.R.Beast]

bad defense numbnuts. easy to get shots up when the defense cant contest u because of ur size advantage, guard u in the post and u cant double without the ball. creating your own shot is a skill that jordan didnt have at the level of kobe. fact.

jordan stans ruining basketball one post at a time


NEXT
Oh shit!!!....this guy is goin in!!!!..... "People like to disregard the influx of undersized guards when MJ played, they even like to ignore the fact that the league was an isolation happy league due to the illegal defense.

This is how i see it. Kobe is a better player than Jordan due to his skillset, but Jordan is still the greater player because The gap he had on the competition when he played was greater than that of what Kobe had on his peers. Jordan was more dominant when he played in his time than Kobe in His. Jordan with the same skills that he had when he played could play today and be in the exact same Best player discusssions as Kobe and Lebron etc. He could've arguably still been the best, which to Me gives Jordan the edge as the greater player, His game translates cross ERAS

[rule1223]

Jordan's lucky he got to face a 25 year old Jason Kidd and not get shut down by a defensive juggernaut 38 year old Jason Kidd.
its called a zone dumbass, let kobe play one-on-one against defenders like jordan got to do and hed drop 50 a night on 50+% shooting

[andgar923]

Oh shit!!!....this guy is goin in!!!!..... "People like to disregard the influx of undersized guards when MJ, they even like to ignore the fact that the league was a isolation happy league due t the illegal defense.

This is how i see it. Kobe is a better player than Jordan due to his skillset, but Jordan is still the greater player because The gap he had on the competition when he played was greater than that of what Kobe had on his peers. Jordan was more dominant when he played in his time than Kobe in His. Jordan with the same skills that he had when he played could play today and be in the exact same Best player discusssions as Kobe nad Lebron etc. He could've arguably still been the best, which to Me gives Jordan the edge as the greater player, His gae translates cros ERAS

Another idiot.:facepalm

[I.R.Beast]

Jordan 41.0ppg being guarded by 6'6" Dan Majerle and 6,7" Richard Dumas.....in the NBA FINALS


Jordan over 35ppg on 6'7" Clyde Drexler...in the NBA Finals..

on over 52% FG.


NEXT.
LMAO....Dan MarjLe.....did he even play defense?.......y

[bwink23]

its called a zone dumbass, let kobe play one-on-one against defenders like jordan got to do and hed drop 50 a night on 50+% shooting


Kobe played under the same rules Jordan did in the mid-90's from 96-2001....

How did he do by the way???

[bwink23]

LMAO....Dan MarjLe.....did he even play defense?.......y


YES...Dan Majerle played defense...if fact he got to do shit defenders today have no chance of doing...

Jordan in these soft-ass rules, LOL.....:rockon:

[Asukal]

its called a zone dumbass, let kobe play one-on-one against defenders like jordan got to do and hed drop 50 a night on 50+% shooting

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Watch Jordan's playoffs game and see how much defensive attention he draws everytime he touches the ball. Just because illegal defensive rules are in place it doesn't mean they couldn't double or triple him, I can post a lot of videos to prove this but I'll let you do your research. The zone defense of today is not really a true zone and teams rarely use it, get educated kid. :hammerhead:

[rule1223]

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Watch Jordan's playoffs game and see how much defensive attention he draws everytime he touches the ball. Just because illegal defensive rules are in place it doesn't mean they couldn't double or triple him, I can post a lot of videos to prove this but I'll let you do your research. The zone defense of today is not really a true zone and teams rarely use it, get educated kid. :hammerhead:
ya sure he was triple teamed... if you consider two other players within a 20m vicinity of him as a triple team

[Asukal]

ya sure he was triple teamed... if you consider two other players within a 20m vicinity of him as a triple team

I told you, watch the games kid. Footage is available so go watch it. Grow a brain for once. :hammerhead:

[bwink23]

ya sure he was triple teamed... if you consider two other players within a 20m vicinity of him as a triple team




Here's a good video for your, "brain".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd2Wqt21_Yo

[guy]

its called a zone dumbass, let kobe play one-on-one against defenders like jordan got to do and hed drop 50 a night on 50+% shooting

1 more ring, 4 more FMVPs, 4 more MVPs, 8 more scoring titles, 1 more first team and about 4000 more points in about 2 less seasons.......all because of the zone!!!!!!!!!

[Micku]

I don't think it's soley because of the defense that Kobe shot selection is not as good as Jordan.

In terms of ppl disregarding the perimeter defense of the 90s, it depends on what you mean by that. If you mean by perimeter individual defense, then the 90s was probably better since they had more legendary defenders with:

Gary Payton-John Stockton
Michael Jordan-Joe Dumars-Dan Majerle
Scottie Pippen-early Rodman

It's hard to fight that. Payton, Stockton, and Jordan are top 4 in steals in the history of the NBA. Joe Dumars is a solid defender, and Rodman used to play the SF and guarded Jordan a few times if Dumars wasn't.

You have probably the best defender whoever played in the PG position. He could guard SG too. And before you start saying he's too small to guard Jordan, he also guarded Kobe as well in the early 00s. He was strong, and similar to Kidd. SG was MJ, Joe Dumars and Dan Majerle, John Starks, Eddie Jones, and others. I think ppl will try to write off Joe Dumars because of his height, but I think Jordan did say that Dumars could guard him pretty well. And there were more ppl around Jordan's height. It would be interesting to see what ppl think of Joe Dumars vs Bruce Bowen or Reja Bell with the defensive end.

Plus you had handcheck which adds to the man to man defense there. There were also shot blockers and defenders with the big men to crowd the paint in the 90s in comparison to the 00s. Jordan trying to layup/dunk against a Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, David Robinson is better than the 00s. Handchecking lost their edge more in the mid 90s.

The defense has more help now than the 90s. But the game is a lot easier for the perimeter players in comparison to the 90s or early 00s. Didn't the NBA stated that the reason for the rules changing is to make the game easier for perimeter players because they are interested in more money? That wasn't the case in the 90s or below. The man to man defense is better in the 90s to me because you have to be able to guard your man more.

I think what many ppl confuse with quality perimeter players that could score to actually defense. And it's not like Jordan never face great perimeter players either. He played in the 80s, and that was the decade that had the most talent all over the place. With George Gervin, Clyde Dexter, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Dr. J, Wilkins, and many more. Jordan won MVP and DPOY out of all of that group, and it still didn't stop his quality play.

And besides: Kobe, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, all of those guys did play in the 90s and there was no zone. Granted they weren't in their prime, but they weren't no Jordan either. Even with Kobe playing with Shaq wasn't as efficient as Jordan was when he was the main defensive attention in the late 90s.

[pauk]

Efficiency & Shot Selection........

[bwink23]

I don't think it's soley because of the defense that Kobe shot selection is not as good as Jordan.

In terms of ppl disregarding the perimeter defense of the 90s, it depends on what you mean by that. If you mean by perimeter individual defense, then the 90s was probably better since they had more legendary defenders with:

Gary Payton-John Stockton
Michael Jordan-Joe Dumars-Dan Majerle
Scottie Pippen-early Rodman

It's hard to fight that. Payton, Stockton, and Jordan are top 4 in steals in the history of the NBA. Joe Dumars is a solid defender, and Rodman used to play the SF and guarded Jordan a few times if Dumars wasn't.

You have probably the best defender whoever played in the PG position. He could guard SG too. And before you start saying he's too small to guard Jordan, he also guarded Kobe as well in the early 00s. He was strong, and similar to Kidd. SG was MJ, Joe Dumars and Dan Majerle, John Starks, Eddie Jones, and others. I think ppl will try to write off Joe Dumars because of his height, but I think Jordan did say that Dumars could guard him pretty well. And there were more ppl around Jordan's height. It would be interesting to see what ppl think of Joe Dumars vs Bruce Bowen or Reja Bell with the defensive end.

Plus you had handcheck which adds to the man to man defense there. There were also shot blockers and defenders with the big men to crowd the paint in the 90s in comparison to the 00s. Jordan trying to layup/dunk against a Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, David Robinson is better than the 00s. Handchecking lost their edge more in the mid 90s.

The defense has more help now than the 90s. But the game is a lot easier for the perimeter players in comparison to the 90s or early 00s. Didn't the NBA stated that the reason for the rules changing is to make the game easier for perimeter players because they are interested in more money? That wasn't the case in the 90s or below. The man to man defense is better in the 90s to me because you have to be able to guard your man more.

I think what many ppl confuse with quality perimeter players that could score to actually defense. And it's not like Jordan never face great perimeter players either. He played in the 80s, and that was the decade that had the most talent all over the place. With George Gervin, Clyde Dexter, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Dr. J, Wilkins, and many more. Jordan won MVP and DPOY out of all of that group, and it still didn't stop his quality play.

And besides: Kobe, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, all of those guys did play in the 90s and there was no zone. Granted they weren't in their prime, but they weren't no Jordan either. Even with Kobe playing with Shaq wasn't as efficient as Jordan was when he was the main defensive attention in the late 90s.


about that HEIGHT thing, you can check my latest thread on Kobe Bryant and what he thinks about that.

[heyhey]

Because Jordan shot 50% from the field while Kobe has never sniffed it for a season. Ever.

:oldlol: you realize that 47% and 50% is like less than 1 shot per game right. So Kobe takes one more heat check bad shot per game and all the sudden he's not allowed to be 1st option

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

It's because one guy's name is Michael Jordan and the other guy's name is Kobe Bryant.

[HighFlyer23]

What it comes down to is that Jordan shot to score and Kobe will occasionally take a tough shot just to exhibit the fact that he can make them and dominate the defender

Not to say Jordan didn't take tough shots ... but his were more out of necessity, within the flow of the game, and around the rim ... Kobe will just go iso and take a tough, contested jumper just because he can

[Da_Realist]

:oldlol: you realize that 47% and 50% is like less than 1 shot per game right. So Kobe takes one more heat check bad shot per game and all the sudden he's not allowed to be 1st option

Player A scores 35 points a game and shoots 54%

Player B scores 27 points a game and shoots 47%

What's the shot difference there?

[DJ Leon Smith]

cuz he was guarded by scrubs

Troof.

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/mjkobe.jpg

[dude77]

[QUOTE=BlackJoker23]kobe is better by a lot. mj never had the ability to create his own shot at the level of kobe. if u watch kobe play, he creates a lot more on his own and gets double teamed a lot more. mj just had an elite playmaker like pippen that could get him the ball and he could just post up and shoot. mj just couldnt create as many shots as kobe. its a big difference in their skillsets[/QUOTE)

pretty clueless post man :facepalm .. but lets play along .. mj had an elite playmaker yada yada .. ok how about pre pippen when jordan was getting whatever shot he wanted and averaging 37 ppg ? let me guess .. he had an 'elite playmaker' like gene banks that could get him the ball ?

[Lebron23]

Troof.

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/mjkobe.jpg


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Glide2keva]

:oldlol: you realize that 47% and 50% is like less than 1 shot per game right. So Kobe takes one more heat check bad shot per game and all the sudden he's not allowed to be 1st optionI meant to say for his career. Jordan shot .498 for his career, while kobe will never get to that mark. He's thrown up too many bricks.

[Glide2keva]

kobe is better by a lot. mj never had the ability to create his own shot at the level of kobe. if u watch kobe play, he creates a lot more on his own and gets double teamed a lot more. mj just had an elite playmaker like pippen that could get him the ball and he could just post up and shoot. mj just couldnt create as many shots as kobe. its a big difference in their skillsets

Quoted, just to show how stupid this post is. This is so full of fail, wow. Jordan couldn't create his own shot? Where do you guys come up with this shit from?:banghead:

[Eric Cartman]

Troof.

http://theassociation.blogs.com/the_association/mjkobe.jpg


Kobe rocking the adidas kicks. Just pitiful.

[Blue&Orange]

I'm starting to believe there are a lot of dummy accounts on this site with the sole purpose to make Lakers\Kobe fans loke bad, blackjoker23 and rule1223 are prime examples, no one can be this stupid, not even 9 year olds.

[The Rock Bottom]

Difference is when kobe shoots he doesn't look for easy shots but instead he shoots contested 2s and 3s. jordan was the exact opposite.

jordan = smart

kobe = show off

[thelucifer69]

Consistency Kobe 2009 vs MJ 1998 have familiar FG%, but Kobe have 26 games under 40% while MJ only had 19 games while MJ take 2 more shots per game + Kobe 30 MJ 35 , and i pretty should MJ barely took jump shot, very few dunk or layup.

[LA_Showtime]

Jordan had Pippen. I don't think you'd see Kobe isolate nearly as much if he had a guy like that. Kobe has NEVER had another play maker out on the floor with him, unless you count Lamar Odom or an OTH Gary Payton.

Other than that, it just seems like Kobe forces his 40 point games more than Jordan ever did. Jordan usually played within the offense while Kobe breaks it more often.

[AlphaWolf24]

Jordan was just as much as a Ballhogg as Kobe....

- Those trying to spin it and say "MJ got slightly better shots in a flow of the offense" are full of Sh!....

- Winning changed everything....the first 6 - 7 years MJ was regarded as a selfish Ballhogg who would never win anything...

- With Phil/Triangle the Bull's started to win...then all of a sudden perception was "MJ was getting people involved and making teamates better":rolleyes: that simply was not true.....Phil knew how to mix MJ's game (ballhogg just like Kobe...with a unmatched competitiveness) to help the team win instead of wearing them down like before.


- using .2% FG difference in 2 completely different era's as proof that MJ knew how to get slightly better shots sounds F'ing retarded...

- recap...MJ and Kobe were both Alpha Ballhogg's who wanted to be the star's of the team ....and wanted to win. Phil Jackson was the key to using this strength as a positive instead of a negative that wore down the team.

Jordan had Great HOF teamates..as did Kobe....when they won...they became viewed as "getting everyone involved":rolleyes: ..when they lost...they were "ballhogg's":rolleyes:

niether ever won jack without Phil....(MJ never even had a winning season)..

there difference in FG% is minimal .2%...and Kobe has played most of his career in different era with leaguewide lower FG%...




the elitists fans here are F'ng Morons trying to spin it like it's some complicated math formula:roll:

[Dragonyeuw]

with his handles in todays game hed get picked 4-5 times a game trying to create srs

That wasn't even happening back in 2003, when he was 40 and most of today's major stars( aside from guys like Wade, Lebron, Durant, Melo) were in their primes. Why would a prime MJ, with better handles than Wizards MJ, have the issue you speak of here?

[OldSchoolBBall]

there difference in FG% is minimal .2%

First off, it's 2%, not ".2%" - learn math. Secondly, the difference isn't minimal at all. Here's data for strictly 2-point FGA's for each of them (since Kobe fans love to contend that if we just discounted 3's, Kobe would be just as efficient as Jordan, which is a laughable claim as you'll see):

MJ's 2FG%, age 21-30: 53.2% (+4.2% above league average)
KB's 2FG%, age 21-30: 48.3% (+1.1% above league average)

MJ's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: 32.1 ppg (+5.2 ppg above Kobe)
KB's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: 26.9 ppg


As you can see, there's a significant difference there both in terms of ppg volume as well as raw FG% and also how well each fared as compared to their peers on 2-point FG's.

And in their respective primes:

Kobe '06-'09 2FG%: 49.1% (league average: 48.3%; Kobe's 2FG% above league average: .8% ; Kobe's peak 2FG% above league average: 1.2% in 2007)

Jordan's '90-'93 2FG%: 53.7% (league average: 48.8%; Jordan's 2FG% above league average: 4.9% ; Jordan's peak 2FG% above league average: 6.3% in 1991)

Not. Minimal. :no:

[LA_Showtime]

First off, it's 2%, not ".2%" - learn math.


:lol

[Dragonyeuw]

if you were playing against an old man would you go all out? its almost as pathetic as going all out against a kid or a girl, if you think the defenders were playing defense with the same intensity against jordan as they were for the rest of the league, you're delusional

So you think defenders were 'taking it easy' on him at the risk of compromising the game? You think when Jordan scored 51 on the Nets at 38/39 that it was by their good graces?

The IQ level on this board :facepalm I mean fcuk, whether you're a Jordan or Kobe fan, tearing one down with ridiculous exaggerations just to prop up the other is getting beyond ridiculous.

[AlphaWolf24]

First off, it's 2%, not ".2%" - learn math. Secondly, the difference isn't minimal at all. Here's data for strictly 2-point FGA's for each of them (since Kobe fans love to contend that if we just discounted 3's, Kobe would be just as efficient as Jordan, which is a laughable claim as you'll see):

MJ's 2FG%, age 21-30: 53.2% (+4.2% above league average)
KB's 2FG%, age 21-30: 48.3% (+1.1% above league average)

MJ's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: 32.1 ppg (+5.2 ppg above Kobe)
KB's 2FG PPG, age 21-30: 26.9 ppg


As you can see, there's a significant difference there both in terms of ppg volume as well as raw FG% and also how well each fared as compared to their peers on 2-point FG's.

And in their respective primes:

Kobe '06-'09 2FG%: 49.1% (league average: 48.3%; Kobe's 2FG% above league average: .8% ; Kobe's peak 2FG% above league average: 1.2% in 2007)

Jordan's '90-'93 2FG%: 53.7% (league average: 48.8%; Jordan's 2FG% above league average: 4.9% ; Jordan's peak 2FG% above league average: 6.3% in 1991)

Not. Minimal. :no:


just as I said...influx of MJ stans with Math...

:facepalm

so much math for .2%....difference....especially when from ages 21 - 30 MJ played over 5 seasons in a much different era...

you can use as many formula's as you want....it's still only 2%:roll: and factor in the era's....minimal at best.


Jordan stans are a silly lot...."it's 2% not .2%...learn math!!"....


ok stan:rolleyes:


all about that FG%FG%FG%FG%FG%

[reppy]

This thread is why we need negs.

[Duncan21formvp]

Difference is is that Kobe played with a guy who has more finals mvp's than he himself has and the same number of league mvp's. And to mention that Kobe went to a franchise that was in 24 finals and won 11 titles prior to him arriving while MJ never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp's and went to a franchise that was in 0 finals and won 0 titles before he arrived.

[caliman]

Kobe forces things alot more than Jordan ever did. As great a scorer as MJ was, he still played simple basketball. See the open man, hit the open man. Far too often Kobe's teammates are left standing around watching him try to dribble through triple teams. He's in his 16th year in the league and he still hasn't learned the basic premise of giving the ball up to get it back.

[AlphaWolf24]

Difference is is that Kobe played with a guy who has more finals mvp's than he himself has and the same number of league mvp's. And to mention that Kobe went to a franchise that was in 24 finals and won 11 titles prior to him arriving while MJ never played with a guy who won league or finals mvp's and went to a franchise that was in 0 finals and won 0 titles before he arrived.


meh..Jordan played with the greatest defensive player of his generation (Shaq was never even made an all NBA defense 1rst team:lol ) who beat MJ's Bull's 3 years straight and won 2 NBA Titles before MJ did..

the greatest rebounder of his generation...arguably The Greatest allaround Forward of alltime and a top 50 alltime player..

Kobe had Shaq and 40 year old Glenn rice.....Shaq beat up on the weak East...Kobe was the MVP in the WCFinals (the real Championship)...oh yeah..and went to 3 straight Finals without Shaq...after he replaced him with a soft Euro who never won 1 playoff game:lol


Snaq is retired...and Kobe is still the best player in the game....



next

[Duncan21formvp]

meh..Jordan played with the greatest defensive player of his generation (Shaq was never even made an all NBA defense 1rst team:lol ) who beat MJ's Bull's 3 years straight and won 2 NBA Titles before MJ did..

the greatest rebounder of his generation...arguably The Greatest allaround Forward of alltime and a top 50 alltime player..

Kobe had Shaq and 40 year old Glenn rice.....Shaq beat up on the weak East...Kobe was the MVP in the WCFinals (the real Championship)...oh yeah..and went to 3 straight Finals without Shaq...after he replaced him with a soft Euro who never won 1 playoff game:lol


Snaq is retired...and Kobe is still the best player in the game....



next

Kobe played with Rodman as well and didn't win. Besides Shaq won 3 finals MVP's and Kobe has 2 finals mvp's.
Yeah and I guess a 32 year old Glen Rice means 40 years to you since you can't count and are in 3rd grade. How is that remedial math going for you?

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe forces things alot more than Jordan ever did. As great a scorer as MJ was, he still played simple basketball. See the open man, hit the open man. Far too often Kobe's teammates are left standing around watching him try to dribble through triple teams. He's in his 16th year in the league and he still hasn't learned the basic premise of giving the ball up to get it back.


another kid who never watched MJ play...saying MJ never forced shots is plain ol' retarded..


MJ would more often then not...shoot over 3 - 4 defenders ....especially in the post season ....Bird and Mchale used to make fun of him saying "we know he's gonna shoot everytime.....as long as does we will win"

[tazb]

Only 14y/o whiteboys and/or skinnyjean blackids in this thread from Cali defending Kobe... MOVE ALONG KIDS.

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe played with Rodman as well and didn't win. Besides Shaq won 3 finals MVP's and Kobe has 2 finals mvp's.

Kobe has more all defensive teams then Shaq....Kobe has more Titles then Shaq....Kobe is a better scorer..so Kobe is better at offense and defense and won more titles...


Nash played with Shaq and never won...Penny played with Shaq and never won....Lebron played with Shaq and never won...Wade played with Shaq and only won 1 ring then folled it up with a 15 win season....

fact is Shaq never sniffed the greatness he had as when he had Godbe....when Godbe became the Closer..then the Lakers dominated...

and Kobe has shown he can still dominate on nearly the same level..with or without Snaq.

[bond10]

Stupid excuse for Lakers losses. Kobe's shooting at a good percentage, he should be taking a lot of shots but his team has more offensive options than Jordan's Bulls which is why Kobe get that label. If 55 shots are taken like this: Kobe 25, Bynum 15, Gasol 15, I don't see a significant difference with: Kobe 15, Bynum 20, Gasol 20. You win some, you lose some, sometimes there is no reason for losing, can't keep pointing at Kobe's FGA lol.

[Duncan21formvp]

another kid who never watched MJ play...saying MJ never forced shots is plain ol' retarded..


MJ would more often then not...shoot over 3 - 4 defenders ....especially in the post season ....Bird and Mchale used to make fun of him saying "we know he's gonna shoot everytime.....as long as does we will win"
Actually this is what Bird said.


"Early on, people were saying Michael Jordan didn't have a team mentality. That was because he didn't have a team."- Larry Bird, When the Game Was Ours

[Duncan21formvp]

Nash played with Shaq and never won...Penny played with Shaq and never won....Lebron played with Shaq and never won...Wade played with Shaq and only won 1 ring then folled it up with a 15 win season....

fact is Shaq never sniffed the greatness he had as when he had Godbe....when Godbe became the Closer..then the Lakers dominated...

and Kobe has shown he can still dominate on nearly the same level..with or without Snaq.
Shaq won because he went to a winning organization in the Lakers who were in 24 finals and won 11 titles before he arrived. Which is why guys like MJ, Duncan, Hakeem, Russell, Isiah are soo great because they took franchises that never won to multiple titles.
Kobe refused to play for the team that drafted him in Charlotte and only wanted to play in LA because he knew that was the only way for him to win titles.

[caliman]

another kid who never watched MJ play...saying MJ never forced shots is plain ol' retarded..


MJ would more often then not...shoot over 3 - 4 defenders ....especially in the post season ....Bird and Mchale used to make fun of him saying "we know he's gonna shoot everytime.....as long as does we will win"


Instead of getting defensive why don't you learn to read and comprehend. I never said MJ never forced shots. I said that Kobe does way more than MJ ever did, and that is a fact.

I'm a die hard Laker fan, but all you have to do is watch the game and see Kobe continuously ignore open teammates to find out the difference between the 2.

And the Bird/McHale quote was from what, his 4th season? What were people saying by the time MJ was in his prime and setting up the likes of Paxson and Kerr for championship winning baskets?

[I.R.Beast]

I don't think it's soley because of the defense that Kobe shot selection is not as good as Jordan.

In terms of ppl disregarding the perimeter defense of the 90s, it depends on what you mean by that. If you mean by perimeter individual defense, then the 90s was probably better since they had more legendary defenders with:

Gary Payton-John Stockton
Michael Jordan-Joe Dumars-Dan Majerle
Scottie Pippen-early Rodman

It's hard to fight that. Payton, Stockton, and Jordan are top 4 in steals in the history of the NBA. Joe Dumars is a solid defender, and Rodman used to play the SF and guarded Jordan a few times if Dumars wasn't.

You have probably the best defender whoever played in the PG position. He could guard SG too. And before you start saying he's too small to guard Jordan, he also guarded Kobe as well in the early 00s. He was strong, and similar to Kidd. SG was MJ, Joe Dumars and Dan Majerle, John Starks, Eddie Jones, and others. I think ppl will try to write off Joe Dumars because of his height, but I think Jordan did say that Dumars could guard him pretty well. And there were more ppl around Jordan's height. It would be interesting to see what ppl think of Joe Dumars vs Bruce Bowen or Reja Bell with the defensive end.

Plus you had handcheck which adds to the man to man defense there. There were also shot blockers and defenders with the big men to crowd the paint in the 90s in comparison to the 00s. Jordan trying to layup/dunk against a Shaq, Ewing, Hakeem, David Robinson is better than the 00s. Handchecking lost their edge more in the mid 90s.

The defense has more help now than the 90s. But the game is a lot easier for the perimeter players in comparison to the 90s or early 00s. Didn't the NBA stated that the reason for the rules changing is to make the game easier for perimeter players because they are interested in more money? That wasn't the case in the 90s or below. The man to man defense is better in the 90s to me because you have to be able to guard your man more.

I think what many ppl confuse with quality perimeter players that could score to actually defense. And it's not like Jordan never face great perimeter players either. He played in the 80s, and that was the decade that had the most talent all over the place. With George Gervin, Clyde Dexter, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Dr. J, Wilkins, and many more. Jordan won MVP and DPOY out of all of that group, and it still didn't stop his quality play.

And besides: Kobe, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson, all of those guys did play in the 90s and there was no zone. Granted they weren't in their prime, but they weren't no Jordan either. Even with Kobe playing with Shaq wasn't as efficient as Jordan was when he was the main defensive attention in the late 90s.


false.... in the 2000-2004 was the best defensive era of basketball. the handcheck and the zone was legal, during that stretch the league average in PPG was on the decline as were the FG%s. It's brought games to a grinding halt, because allowing handchecking and zone concepts made scoring harder than ever and ratings were down because the offensive output was not the same and offensive continutity wasn't what it is now. The league in order to increase offensive continuity put a bind on the hand check in favor of the Zone.

The implementation of zone begin was point the league into a more team oriented direction as the league admitted that the NBA had become an isolation league with premier players just going one on 1 and they wanted to move away from that, and zone concepts is a counter to that by forcing ball movement to induce team play. the 90s did have better on ball defense due to players being able to hand check, but it's not more effective than the team defense that teams can play today. the offensive output o those years are proof that scoring was easier then than now. Hard fouls and butchery is indeed more physical but that doesn't constitute better defense.

[bwink23]

meh..Jordan played with the greatest defensive player of his generation (Shaq was never even made an all NBA defense 1rst team:lol ) who beat MJ's Bull's 3 years straight and won 2 NBA Titles before MJ did..

the greatest rebounder of his generation...arguably The Greatest allaround Forward of alltime and a top 50 alltime player..

Kobe had Shaq and 40 year old Glenn rice.....Shaq beat up on the weak East...Kobe was the MVP in the WCFinals (the real Championship)...oh yeah..and went to 3 straight Finals without Shaq...after he replaced him with a soft Euro who never won 1 playoff game:lol


Snaq is retired...and Kobe is still the best player in the game....



next



SHAQ = top 10 all time and the MOST DOMINANT FORCE in the 2000's...Jordan won 3 rings without Rodman, the only constant was Pippen.


Shaq = the man....Kobe = the sidekick....they tried reversing that role a couple of time together, and didn't win SHIT. :D

[L.A. Jazz]

it's funny how lot's of people blame Kobe but forget the coaches. they are in charge how the team plays and if they dont like what Kobe does it's on them to change the offense. i dont believe Kobe is playing out of system all the time.

[LA_Showtime]

it's funny how lot's of people blame Kobe but forget the coaches. they are in charge how the team plays and if they dont like what Kobe does it's on them to change the offense. i dont believe Kobe is playing out of system all the time.

Kobe's like jekyl and hyde. I seriously think he just gets bored or something because there's no other explanation for playing the right way and then just breaking the offense for 4-5 games.

[bwink23]

false.... in the 2000-2004 was the best defensive era of basketball. the handcheck and the zone was legal, during that stretch the league average in PPG was on the decline as were the FG%s. It's brought games to a grinding halt, because allowing handchecking and zone concepts made scoring harder than ever and ratings were down because the offensive output was not the same and offensive continutity wasn't what it is now. The league in order to increase offensive continuity put a bind on the hand check in favor of the Zone.

The implementation of zone begin was point the league into a more team oriented direction as the league admitted that the NBA had become an isolation league with premier players just going one on 1 and they wanted to move away from that, and zone concepts is a counter to that by forcing ball movement to induce team play. the 90s did have better on ball defense due to players being able to hand check, but it's not more effective than the team defense that teams can play today. the offensive output o those years are proof that scoring was easier then than now. Hard fouls and butchery is indeed more physical but that doesn't constitute better defense.



Zones have NEVER been used heavily since it's introduction in 2002. The defensive 3-second rule negates a true zone, ensuring lanes are to be open unless closely guarding an offensive player in the area....it wasn't until the "rules to curtail" handchecking were enforced in 2005 that scoring made a turn-around.

From 99-2004....league average eFG% - 47%, 21 teams top 100ppg.


AFTER the handcheck rules put in place:


From 2005-2010....league average eFG% 49-50%, with 46 teams topping 100ppg...alll this at near IDENTICAL game pace.


SO, UH...your WRONG DUDE!!!!! :pimp:

[Da_Realist]

Kobe forces things alot more than Jordan ever did. As great a scorer as MJ was, he still played simple basketball. See the open man, hit the open man. Far too often Kobe's teammates are left standing around watching him try to dribble through triple teams. He's in his 16th year in the league and he still hasn't learned the basic premise of giving the ball up to get it back.


Instead of getting defensive why don't you learn to read and comprehend. I never said MJ never forced shots. I said that Kobe does way more than MJ ever did, and that is a fact.

I'm a die hard Laker fan, but all you have to do is watch the game and see Kobe continuously ignore open teammates to find out the difference between the 2.

And the Bird/McHale quote was from what, his 4th season? What were people saying by the time MJ was in his prime and setting up the likes of Paxson and Kerr for championship winning baskets?

Exactly right. AlphaWolf is preying on kids that have only seen highlights. Fans that have seen them both play know there's a difference. He confuses the issue by posting false numbers and then screams bloody murder when someone corrects him. Note: He knew what he was doing in the first place. Says something about him that he needs to do that to make his point. Why people waste time arguing with this dude is beyond me.

[bwink23]

false.... in the 2000-2004 was the best defensive era of basketball. the handcheck and the zone was legal, during that stretch the league average in PPG was on the decline as were the FG%s. It's brought games to a grinding halt, because allowing handchecking and zone concepts made scoring harder than ever and ratings were down because the offensive output was not the same and offensive continutity wasn't what it is now. The league in order to increase offensive continuity put a bind on the hand check in favor of the Zone.

The implementation of zone begin was point the league into a more team oriented direction as the league admitted that the NBA had become an isolation league with premier players just going one on 1 and they wanted to move away from that, and zone concepts is a counter to that by forcing ball movement to induce team play. the 90s did have better on ball defense due to players being able to hand check, but it's not more effective than the team defense that teams can play today. the offensive output o those years are proof that scoring was easier then than now. Hard fouls and butchery is indeed more physical but that doesn't constitute better defense.


WRONG AGAIN....the ball was moved quite often in the 1980's, and scoring was very BALANCED between players of all positions. eFG% of the 2000's and the 1980's is near identical. The true difference is the slowing down of the game, less fast breaks, running more plays, etc...Coaches have more control over their teams now. The difference in team ppg has more to do with different styles than it does with defense:


EFG % from 2005-2010 -- 48.2, 49.0, 49.6, 49.7, 50.0,50.1....
EFG % from 1985-1991 -- 49.6, 49.3, 48.8, 48.9, 48.9, 48.7, 48.7....


The REAL difference (NOT defense)

GAME PACE....from 2005-2010 = 91.7
from 1985-1991 = 100.2




:pimp:

[Coffee Black]

It so obvious which posters have and have not watched both of them play, that it kind of destroys the point of this thread continuing. The only real answer is Jordan played more in the flow of the offense.

[rodman91]

Just like how Kobe scores as much as he was prime right now, but his offense isn't as good as mid 00's.. Jordan shot as much as Kobe, but he was all about attacking rim,post offense and mid range jumpers. Prime Kobe was less attacking,less post offense but more jumpers.

[Cali Syndicate]

Shaq won because he went to a winning organization in the Lakers who were in 24 finals and won 11 titles before he arrived. Which is why guys like MJ, Duncan, Hakeem, Russell, Isiah are soo great because they took franchises that never won to multiple titles.
Kobe refused to play for the team that drafted him in Charlotte and only wanted to play in LA because he knew that was the only way for him to win titles.

P Jackson had a lot to do with Shaq's success as well.

[Cali Syndicate]

just as I said...influx of MJ stans with Math...

:facepalm

so much math for .2%....difference....especially when from ages 21 - 30 MJ played over 5 seasons in a much different era...

you can use as many formula's as you want....it's still only 2%:roll: and factor in the era's....minimal at best.


Jordan stans are a silly lot...."it's 2% not .2%...learn math!!"....


ok stan:rolleyes:

all about that FG%FG%FG%FG%FG%



Exactly right. AlphaWolf is preying on kids that have only seen highlights. Fans that have seen them both play know there's a difference. He confuses the issue by posting false numbers and then screams bloody murder when someone corrects him. Note: He knew what he was doing in the first place. Says something about him that he needs to do that to make his point. Why people waste time arguing with this dude is beyond me.

Makes complete sense.

[Batchoy]

This is a very easy question to answer. You see Kobe has taken 21,743 shots throughout his career until today. While Jordan had taken 24,537 shots throughout his career. The difference between the amount of shots taken between the two is 24537 - 21742, which is....(drum roll)....

2794

Close thread, please.

[bwink23]

This is a very easy question to answer. You see Kobe has taken 21,743 shots throughout his career until today. While Jordan had taken 24,537 shots throughout his career. The difference between the amount of shots taken between the two is 24537 - 21742, which is....(drum roll)....

2794

Close thread, please.



Before we go and close thread.....let's take a look at the totals for regular season and playoffs...


Jordan 14380/29034 = 49.5%FG

kobe 11764/25941 = 45.3%FG


Michael Jordan missed 12,345 shots during the regular season in his career.
Kobe so far has missed 11,861 shots.

That's only 484 shots....At his current rate, he's due to pass Michael Jordan in his 51st game this year, on his 22,640th shot attempt....

About 1,897 shots less than Jordan took to miss the same amount....

Which equates to over 90 games....


Now you can close the thread.

[Nevaeh]

I'm starting to believe there are a lot of dummy accounts on this site with the sole purpose to make Lakers\Kobe fans loke bad, blackjoker23 and rule1223 are prime examples, no one can be this stupid, not even 9 year olds.

Speaking of "9's", that 9erEmpire kid is on his way to making Kobe Stans the most absolute laughing stock of fans, with his "Jordan learned his game from Kobe" schtick. :oldlol:

It's like Trolls don't even try anymore these days...

Kobe wearing Air Jordan 8s, yet Jordan "learned his game" from Kobe :rolleyes:


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PoIi4JcQg5Q/Ti2gqUOkfiI/AAAAAAAAAps/8_I2yBs_8Hk/s1600/Kobe+Wearing+Jordans.jpg

[Poodle]

Jordan was a much better passer than Kobe imo. nobody did the fake shot pass down low better than him. he'd always find the open man, it was rare when he didn't. MJ's IQ > Kobe's by a lot to be honest. people may think of Mj as a ball hog but he was smart about it, where as Kobe mode isn't smart 1/2 the time. so to me the difference is Kobe will shoot it regardless of who's open most of the time where as MJ would find the open man often, and make them pay for doubling him.

[AlphaWolf24]

Exactly right. AlphaWolf is preying on kids that have only seen highlights. Fans that have seen them both play know there's a difference. He confuses the issue by posting false numbers and then screams bloody murder when someone corrects him. Note: He knew what he was doing in the first place. Says something about him that he needs to do that to make his point. Why people waste time arguing with this dude is beyond me.

wrong again bum..I prey on the elitist fans who think they know everything...then try to spew garbage to the majority..


I said most stans never seen MJ play...and the silly elitist fans use advanced math and silly excuses to show that MJ shot .2% higher in mostly a completely different era when many more players adveraged 20+ PPG on 50%...when in contrast...very few if any players in the modern era do so.

Jordan career TS% = .569%
Kobe career TS% = .556%

nearly .2%...nothing to argue about...you Jordan stans are silly...and ruin basketball one post at a time..

[Da_Realist]

First you say...



- using .2% FG difference in 2 completely different era's as proof that MJ knew how to get slightly better shots sounds F'ing retarded...

there difference in FG% is minimal .2%...and Kobe has played most of his career in different era with leaguewide lower FG%...

and



so much math for .2%....difference....

it's still only 2%

...."it's 2% not .2%...learn math!!"....

all about that FG%FG%FG%FG%FG%

Then when you get called out, it's all about that



TS%TS%TS%TS%TS%




Jordan career TS% = .569%
Kobe career TS% = .556%

nearly .2%

The kids that take you seriously are the silly lot.

[juju151111]

First you say...



and



Then when you get called out, it's all about that



TS%TS%TS%TS%TS%



The kids that take you seriously are the silly lot.
I actually think Alpha makes decent points sometimes.(It's Rare tho) 9er is a special case through.

[Floppy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgHITc1OL-c&list=FLhG8YAxnQPdfBUrZWqtuTPw&feature=mh_lolz

This needs a plural version.

[Micku]

false.... in the 2000-2004 was the best defensive era of basketball. the handcheck and the zone was legal, during that stretch the league average in PPG was on the decline as were the FG%s. It's brought games to a grinding halt, because allowing handchecking and zone concepts made scoring harder than ever and ratings were down because the offensive output was not the same and offensive continutity wasn't what it is now. The league in order to increase offensive continuity put a bind on the hand check in favor of the Zone.

The implementation of zone begin was point the league into a more team oriented direction as the league admitted that the NBA had become an isolation league with premier players just going one on 1 and they wanted to move away from that, and zone concepts is a counter to that by forcing ball movement to induce team play. the 90s did have better on ball defense due to players being able to hand check, but it's not more effective than the team defense that teams can play today. the offensive output o those years are proof that scoring was easier then than now. Hard fouls and butchery is indeed more physical but that doesn't constitute better defense.

What I said wasn't false. I did say that both 90s and early 00s. Handchecking got less aggressive over time. The first major decrease took place in the 79-80 (correct me if I'm wrong). Then the next was in the mid 90s. Then the next one was 04-05?

And the 00-04 could be called one of the best defensive eras in basketball (the 70s were pretty physical) or bad offense. Around the late 90s, especially after Jordan retired the first time, a lot of people thought a lot of players were playing bad offense. A lot of players did too many iso, and they were saying the IQ dropped and the lacked the fundamentals. You still hear it today (it was worse in the early 00s) with the commentators and basketball analysts. They would say the footwork and the mid-range jumper were better back in the early 90s and 80s.

Although you could say that since the league was becoming more thuggish, ppl were saying that more and being bias. But you tell the difference of quality of teams in comparison of the early 90s and 80s. The late 90s and early 00s don't hold up. To be fair, hardly any decade holds up.

And you're right. The implementation of zone was a mixture of promoting more teamplay and stopping Shaq from dominating teams if I can recall.

But you saying that handchecking is not more effective than the team defense that teams can play today depends on what you mean. Handchecking is more efficient when stopping perimeter players, especially the average perimeter players. Zone is more important for stopping players who score in the paint or superstar players. The space that perimeter have now makes it easier to score for them. And teams hardly use zone because that will leave the shooters open, but it depends on the moment and when they do it. Plus they don't have to worry about leaving their man and getting called for illegal defense.

Regardless, my question is that why Kobe gets the criticism when Jordan didn't as much in the 90s. It's not like Kobe wasn't winning, but like others said, I think Kobe had more offensive talent on his teams for him to shoot a lot. Like Shaq, Gasol, Bynum, and etc. And the fact that Jordan was more efficient.

[bwink23]

wrong again bum..I prey on the elitist fans who think they know everything...then try to spew garbage to the majority..


I said most stans never seen MJ play...and the silly elitist fans use advanced math and silly excuses to show that MJ shot .2% higher in mostly a completely different era when many more players adveraged 20+ PPG on 50%...when in contrast...very few if any players in the modern era do so.

Jordan career TS% = .569%
Kobe career TS% = .556%

nearly .2%...nothing to argue about...you Jordan stans are silly...and ruin basketball one post at a time..


TS% is a KOBETARD stat...thanks for sharing.

and .2% is no where near the 1.3% difference in TS% anyway...by the way, that gap GROWS LARGER if you only include their prime years. Jordan's TS% topped out much higher than Kobe's...:pimp:


The only reason Kobe's TS% approaches Jordan's is because Kobe scores a HIGHER % of his points from the FT line than Jordan did.


Kobe's EFFECTIVE FG%, which includes 3's, topped out at 50.3%. His average was 46-49% eFG%.

Jordan's EFFECTIVE FG% topped out at 55%.


9 seasons, Jordan efg% was above 50%.....Kobe only did that 3 times.


Jordan's efg% career would be a full 3% better than Kobe's if not for 2 crappy seasons with the Wizards..

% of points scored from FT's: Kobe = 25.2%.....Jordan = 22.7%. This is the ONLY reason why Kobe's TS% is closer to Jordan's.

[Leviathon1121]

Your math must be off. Michael Jordan is the most coddled player in the history of the league, there is no way Kobe being much more of a jump shooter gets to the line more often.

Right, Laker fans?

[Nevaeh]

Jordan was just as much as a Ballhogg as Kobe....

- Those trying to spin it and say "MJ got slightly better shots in a flow of the offense" are full of Sh!....

- Winning changed everything....the first 6 - 7 years MJ was regarded as a selfish Ballhogg who would never win anything...

- With Phil/Triangle the Bull's started to win...then all of a sudden perception was "MJ was getting people involved and making teamates better":rolleyes: that simply was not true.....Phil knew how to mix MJ's game (ballhogg just like Kobe...with a unmatched competitiveness) to help the team win instead of wearing them down like before.


- using .2% FG difference in 2 completely different era's as proof that MJ knew how to get slightly better shots sounds F'ing retarded...

- recap...MJ and Kobe were both Alpha Ballhogg's who wanted to be the star's of the team ....and wanted to win. Phil Jackson was the key to using this strength as a positive instead of a negative that wore down the team.

Jordan had Great HOF teamates..as did Kobe....when they won...they became viewed as "getting everyone involved":rolleyes: ..when they lost...they were "ballhogg's":rolleyes:

niether ever won jack without Phil....(MJ never even had a winning season)..

there difference in FG% is minimal .2%...and Kobe has played most of his career in different era with leaguewide lower FG%...




the elitists fans here are F'ng Morons trying to spin it like it's some complicated math formula:roll:

It's clowns like you who keep your boy hated and made fun of so often here at ISH. That's because you constantly call yourself being slick by trying to bend the truth every chance you get. Take that .2% bullsh!t out back, shoot it in the head, and come back with some real numbers. Now hurry up! Scoot !!!

[k0kakw0rld]

ppl cant accept the fact that someone has succeeded their childhood hero, when someone comes along in the future thats better than kobe, i wont be happy but i wont dedicate my life to criticizing and hating that player
That guy came in 2003 we all know him as King James or LBJ or The Chosen One.

Btw kobe will never be better than MJ.

[glidedrxlr22]

Simple....

Jordan 10 seasons of shooting 48% or better...efficiency. Career 49.7%

Kobe 0 seasons of shooting 48% or better. His career best can be rounded to 47%. Career 45.4%