Rose is the Best PG in the League

[rugrats]

He just showed up and dominated cp3. who was "top 5" in everyones list and the best "pg" . :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[hawkfan]

Jeff Teague will again make Rose look slow next Saturday, like he did in the playoffs against the Bulls.

[konex]

Not fair. CP3 didn't get a rest in the 2nd half and his guys missed MANY open shots off his passes.

PS: I actually think D-Will has the best combo of play-making, scoring and shooting :hammerhead:

[The_Yearning]

I'm not going to judge CPIII on this game because he is a fat slob right now...

[Heavincent]

Agreed.

Rose tonight: 29 points and 16 assists

What a ****ing beast :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Best PG in the league.

[rugrats]

Agreed.

Rose tonight: 29 points and 16 assists

What a ****ing beast :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: Best PG in the league.

u realler den most ppl and u speak da truth.

[shaq's--lakers]

D-Will

D.Rose

Rondo

CP3

[tpols]

Not fair. CP3 didn't get a rest in the 2nd half and his guys missed MANY open shots off his passes.

PS: I actually think D-Will has the best combo of play-making, scoring and shooting :hammerhead:
No way.. put Rose on the Nets and he doesn't let us sink like Deron is.

[RazorBaLade]

cp3 is the best PG. he always look for tmates... hes just not an alpha type guy. he'll never take as many shots and isos as rose does. but rose is the better player.. not the better pg to run an offense and get every1 goin

[talkingconch]

Deron Williams,

but I'd put him in the top 3.

Honestly it's pretty close between Deron, CP3, Rose

[KOBEtherealKing]

I don't care whose the best pg, as long as lakers get one of them one day.

Right now rose is the best. Dwill not playing well because he doesn't want to be there. Cp3 is just adjusting to being the 2nd option.

[Rose]

cp3 is the best PG. he always look for tmates... hes just not an alpha type guy. he'll never take as many shots and isos as rose does. but rose is the better player.. not the better pg to run an offense and get every1 goin
And Rose had more assists tonight.

[RazorBaLade]

No way.. put Rose on the Nets and he doesn't let us sink like Deron is.

youre mixing up pg with player. deron has shitty teammates, put him on the lakers and he will literally do everything they need. put him on miami he will be everything for them. its that simple.. they just aren't alpha type players. rose will go and shoot 20 times, deron is going to keep passing to scrubs.

[Tenchi Ryu]

cp3 is the best PG. he always look for tmates... hes just not an alpha type guy. he'll never take as many shots and isos as rose does. but rose is the better player.. not the better pg to run an offense and get every1 goin
You obviously didn't watch the game.....or see Rose's impressive Assist number...Hell, Rose has been a passing beast all season so far. He's doing a MUCH better job getting the teammates involved. He only takes over in the late 2nd half now.

[Glide2keva]

Rose didn't even take 20 shots today or any point yet this season.

[Heavincent]

Deron Williams,

but I'd put him in the top 3.

Honestly it's pretty close between Deron, CP3, Rose

Deron Williams has been AWFUL for the first few games of the season. 14/5/5 on 28% shooting.

[Sampsonsimpson]

Chris Paul didnt have a bad night, he played a good game, just not as dominate as Rose.

[RazorBaLade]

And Rose had more assists tonight.

just assists dont make you a pg tho. if bron gets 8 assists it doesnt mean he plays the same role that CP3 does if cp3 gets 4 assists. its all about controlling the game and creating opportunities, rose is definitely a SG/PG mix and NOT just a pure PG. rose is fine as a player but hes barely a t5 pg. barely.

[Hernando]

cp3 is the best PG. he always look for tmates... hes just not an alpha type guy. he'll never take as many shots and isos as rose does. but rose is the better player.. not the better pg to run an offense and get every1 goin
Not sure if you watched the game tonight, but Derrick Rose looked to pass every single time he brought it down the court.

[Rose]

just assists dont make you a pg tho. if bron gets 8 assists it doesnt mean he plays the same role that CP3 does if cp3 gets 4 assists. its all about controlling the game and creating opportunities, rose is definitely a SG/PG mix and NOT just a pure PG. rose is fine as a player but hes barely a t5 pg. barely.
Oh you're one of those guys.

Nevermind.

[Celtics4ever]

DRose has been the best PG since last season. Why bring up the obvious?

/thread

[Meticode]

Deron Williams,

but I'd put him in the top 3.

Honestly it's pretty close between Deron, CP3, Rose
Right now? No. Deron has been terrible to start the season.

[knightfall88]

Rose might not exactly match up court vision with CP3 but his scoring abilities are so much more potent

[RazorBaLade]

Didn't watch the game tonight guys so I'm kinda speaking all around.. I mean just one game wouldn't make him the best PG anyways so dwelling only on this is pointless.

but looking at the stats, I know I know, we have 14 shots from rose and then 11 fts. you dont see that stuff from cp3 or nash or deron, EVER. They ALWAYS pass more to their shitty players. this day may have been a bit of an exception as it looks like an UNBELIEVABLY good game by rose but overall..

[KOBEtherealKing]

Rose might not exactly match up court vision with CP3 but his scoring abilities are so much more potent
Most of his assists comes of his court vision. I notice rose rarely throws lobs all game long like cp3.

[RazorBaLade]

Oh you're one of those guys.

Nevermind.

if I wanted to run an offense I'd take

CP3
Nash
Deron
Rondo
Rose


as a player I think rose is better than all of them.. but from a pg standpoint, NIGHT IN AND NIGHT OUT.. id take those guys first.. idk i might be wrong. i just dont see the PG slot as somethin where a player can go and take 15 shots and 10 fts. Or go and shoot 25+ times like rose has done in the past. it makes him a great player, but pg?

[Rose]

Here's their head to head stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=paulch01&p2=rosede01)

The only time Paul clearly out played Rose was their first time aside from that it's been fairly even with Rose winning each time.

[Xyph]

Rose easily the best PG

[Celtics4ever]

if I wanted to run an offense I'd take

CP3
Nash
Deron
Rondo
Rose


as a player I think rose is better than all of them.. but from a pg standpoint, NIGHT IN AND NIGHT OUT.. id take those guys first.. idk i might be wrong. i just dont see the PG slot as somethin where a player can go and take 15 shots and 10 fts. Or go and shoot 25+ times like rose has done in the past. it makes him a great player, but pg?

Really? You won't make a very good General Manager.

I much rather take Rose. He has a better combo of passing ability and Scoring than any of those you mentioned. You are either a troll or dont know bball. How old are you?

[game385]

Not fair. CP3 didn't get a rest in the 2nd half and his guys missed MANY open shots off his passes.

PS: I actually think D-Will has the best combo of play-making, scoring and shooting :hammerhead:

Rose played just as many minutes.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Here's their head to head stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=paulch01&p2=rosede01)

The only time Paul clearly out played Rose was their first time aside from that it's been fairly even with Rose winning each time.

How is that "fairly even"? Paul clearly outplayed him 3/4 games. :oldlol:

[RazorBaLade]

Really? You won't make a very good General Manager.

I much rather take Rose. He has a better combo of passing ability and Scoring than any of those you mentioned. You are either a troll or dont know bball. How old are you?

meh maybe not. Look at my train of thought tho, I'm gonna name 5 good teams

Dallas
Lakers
Miami
OKC
Spurs

All of them would get more use from someone like CP3 or Rondo than Rose, besides Maybe the spurs. Cp3 would make all of those teams favorites, but Rose? He wouldn't work in half those teams guaranteed!

im 19

[Kblaze8855]

youre mixing up pg with player.

And you are redefining what a point guard is.

You would have been calling Bob Cousy a 2 because he led the NBA in shots.

Brevin Knight, Eric snow, and Muggsy Bogues are not more "pure" points than Gary Payton just because Gary defended 3 positions, played off theb all with Nate in the game, and would get like 7 assists a game in his prime while posting up and scoring more than anything.

Those guys are simply more limited.

You arent less of a point because you can score and its often the best play for you to attack. being able to take your man and failing to do it so someone else can get a worse shot isnt being a point guard. Its making a bad decision.

[hkfosho]

if I wanted to run an offense I'd take

CP3
Nash
Deron
Rondo
Rose


as a player I think rose is better than all of them.. but from a pg standpoint, NIGHT IN AND NIGHT OUT.. id take those guys first.. idk i might be wrong. i just dont see the PG slot as somethin where a player can go and take 15 shots and 10 fts. Or go and shoot 25+ times like rose has done in the past. it makes him a great player, but pg?

You win basketball games with points, not with playmaking abilities. Whether it be through assists or scoring, Rose is the best at getting points in the PG spot.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Kenny was JUST saying this the other day. Being a great point guard is NOT about your number of points and assists. Its ALL about your ability to control the pace of the game. You are the playmaker, it is YOUR job to control what's going on. And we ALL know how D-Rose does that.

[Glide2keva]

And you are redefining what a point guard is.

You would have been calling Bob Cousy a 2 because he led the NBA in shots.

Brevin Knight, Eric snow, and Muggsy Bogues are not more "pure" points than Gary Payton just because Gary defended 3 positions, played off theb all with Nate in the game, and would get like 7 assists a game in his prime while posting up and scoring more than anything.

Those guys are simply more limited.

You arent less of a point because you can score and its often the best play for you to attack. being able to take your man and failing to do it so someone else can get a worse shot isnt being a point guard. Its making a bad decision.
That's what they do, move the goal posts on Rose. Whenever he has a game like this, (that they clearly didn't watch), they come up with some type of excuse, or change the argument.

[1rkrage]

And you are redefining what a point guard is.

You would have been calling Bob Cousy a 2 because he led the NBA in shots.

Brevin Knight, Eric snow, and Muggsy Bogues are not more "pure" points than Gary Payton just because Gary defended 3 positions, played off theb all with Nate in the game, and would get like 7 assists a game in his prime while posting up and scoring more than anything.

Those guys are simply more limited.

You arent less of a point because you can score and its often the best play for you to attack. being able to take your man and failing to do it so someone else can get a worse shot isnt being a point guard. Its making a bad decision.

:applause:

[Rose]

How is that "fairly even"? Paul clearly outplayed him 3/4 games. :oldlol:
You must not be good with numbers.

Game 1 Paul destroyed.

Game 2. Rose won by a little

Game 3. Paul won by a few assists.

Game 4. Rose pretty much won easily.

[bearcatext]

meh maybe not. Look at my train of thought tho, I'm gonna name 5 good teams

Dallas
Lakers
Miami
OKC
Spurs

All of them would get more use from someone like CP3 or Rondo than Rose, besides Maybe the spurs. Cp3 would make all of those teams favorites, but Rose? He wouldn't work in half those teams guaranteed!

im 19


That's your opinion though. Rose has done nothing, but improve every year and year after year all you get is blind hate because he's not a "true PG." Get over that line, Rose on any one of those teams would make them 10 times better. Don't comment if you don't spend the time to watch the players, any one can look at a stat sheet. I'd love to pick the PG behind you cause I'd be happy to take Rose off your hands and make you regret your decision for the rest of his tenure in the league.

[Celtics4ever]

meh maybe not. Look at my train of thought tho, I'm gonna name 5 good teams

Dallas
Lakers
Miami
OKC
Spurs

All of them would get more use from someone like CP3 or Rondo than Rose, besides Maybe the spurs. Cp3 would make all of those teams favorites, but Rose? He wouldn't work in half those teams guaranteed!

im 19

Ok? People were saying the Clips would make more use for CP3, then what happened now??? Why aren't they winning? Get out of here kid.I know you're going to say that they need more time, but come back to me when that happens. For now admit you are 12 years old because you dont know Bball. DRose is a perfect combo of a passer and a scorer. Any General Manager would love DRose on their team before any other PG. That's a fact.

[RazorBaLade]

And you are redefining what a point guard is.

You would have been calling Bob Cousy a 2 because he led the NBA in shots.

Brevin Knight, Eric snow, and Muggsy Bogues are not more "pure" points than Gary Payton just because Gary defended 3 positions, played off theb all with Nate in the game, and would get like 7 assists a game in his prime while posting up and scoring more than anything.

Those guys are simply more limited.

You arent less of a point because you can score and its often the best play for you to attack. being able to take your man and failing to do it so someone else can get a worse shot isnt being a point guard. Its making a bad decision.

I dont think any pg can be a 1st option (that ive seen, anyways) on a winning team so ya I'd rather have a pg that shoots less and passes more to the better player. rose cant be a 2nd option and i dont know if he can be a 1st. cp3 cant be a 1st but he can probably be a 2nd. if everyone disagrees with me im probably wrong no big deal but its just based off what i know which is little

[Kellogs4toniee]

Still too tough to judge. Right now the only factual thing we can say is Rose and CP3 are two of the top candidates for best PG in the league.

CP3 had a fantastic game. There still trying to find the best blend of when CP3 should create, and when it should be iso Griffin at the block. I still think they under-utilized Mo Williams. CP3 played too many un-neccesary minutes in my opinion. I'm giving Del Negro a pass for now, but he needs to find a good rotation soon or his job will be on the line before March.

Needless to say, this was also a fantastic game for Rose. He was clearly looking for his team-mates for the first three quarters, then went hot from the field in the 4th quarter. His 3's tend to be short, not enough lift or rotation, but they went down crisp today in the 4th. Rose when his 3 pointers are going in is as good a player as any in the league.

I personally feel they brought Griffin in too late in the 4th (my goodness he was un-stoppable that game and barely had any calls) and kept CP3 in un-necessary minutes. That and there defense. The Clippers need to work on there defense big time. Griffin is still very glaringly slow on rotations, and the team cohesive effort is still not there. All understandable given the new layout of the team of course.

Crunch time for this team down the season should always ultimately be pick and rolls with CP3 and Griffin, and then dump the ball to Griffin on the block if the pick and roll doesn't work, and let Griffin find the open shooter, cutting Paul, or take the shot himself.

I really have no qualms with my Bulls this game, outside of Boozer of course. Fantastic game, with main merits going to Rose and Deng. Hamilton is still taking a good amount of shots, which is exactly as a Bulls fan what I would like for him to continue doing. Boozer is of course making me face palm everytime he comes on the floor given his contract. Noah doing his thing. I would like to see Gibson more involved. His jumper and finishing ability is very under-rated. Defense was of course very good.

Let's ask this question after mid-season. Right now it's still too soon.

[BlackVVaves]

just assists dont make you a pg tho. if bron gets 8 assists it doesnt mean he plays the same role that CP3 does if cp3 gets 4 assists. its all about controlling the game and creating opportunities, rose is definitely a SG/PG mix and NOT just a pure PG. rose is fine as a player but hes barely a t5 pg. barely.

Dude got MVP last year, but he's barely top 5 PG?

You tell me the last time a MVP came into his next season being barely top 3 at his position, let alone top 5.

Cocaine's a hell of a drug kid :oldlol:

[juju151111]

just assists dont make you a pg tho. if bron gets 8 assists it doesnt mean he plays the same role that CP3 does if cp3 gets 4 assists. its all about controlling the game and creating opportunities, rose is definitely a SG/PG mix and NOT just a pure PG. rose is fine as a player but hes barely a t5 pg. barely.
Rose has been a top 5 PG for 2 years. Go sit your ass down somewhere.

[Celtics4ever]

I dont think any pg can be a 1st option (that ive seen, anyways) on a winning team so ya I'd rather have a pg that shoots less and passes more to the better player. rose cant be a 2nd option and i dont know if he can be a 1st. cp3 cant be a 1st but he can probably be a 2nd. if everyone disagrees with me im probably wrong no big deal but its just based off what i know which is little

So you're saying two first options can't play together? Check out Wade and LeBron. Rose has the game where he can gell with anyone. If he wants he can average 15 ppg and 12 assists. He just wants to win. He isn't into padding assists or any other BS.

[RazorBaLade]

Ok? People were saying the Clips would make more use for CP3, then what happened now??? Why aren't they winning? Get out of here kid.I know you're going to say that they need more time, but come back to me when that happens. For now admit you are 12 years old because you dont know Bball. DRose is a perfect combo of a passer and a scorer. Any General Manager would love DRose on their team before any other PG. That's a fact.

because hes out of shape and not a 1st option? If he was on the lakers I promise theyd be winning. Rose is potentially not good enough to be a 1st but ala westbrook (even more so but hes obv way better) shoots too much to be a real pg and a 2nd option.. i think thats a bad spot to be in


You win basketball games with points, not with playmaking abilities. Whether it be through assists or scoring, Rose is the best at getting points in the PG spot.

thats fine. Like I said I think theres a difference between a true point guard and a good player. Rose is better than all of them as players but more teams need point guards than small sgs who can only pass when they are super athletic and drive by everyone. Nash can be a beast at 37, can Rose?

[SpecialQue]

I just noticed OP is banned. Good. He was REALLY stinking up the Heat/T-Wolves thread earlier with his crap.

[RazorBaLade]

So you're saying two first options can't play together? Check out Wade and LeBron. Rose has the game where he can gell with anyone. If he wants he can average 15 ppg and 12 assists. He just wants to win. He isn't into padding assists or any other BS.

Good point. I dunno how Rose would be better at that role than Cp3 tho, but its def something I've overlooked in forming my opinion.

[hkfosho]

I dont think any pg can be a 1st option (that ive seen, anyways) on a winning team so ya I'd rather have a pg that shoots less and passes more to the better player. rose cant be a 2nd option and i dont know if he can be a 1st. cp3 cant be a 1st but he can probably be a 2nd. if everyone disagrees with me im probably wrong no big deal but its just based off what i know which is little

wtf is this guy saying, just be quiet and stop embarrassing yourself

[RazorBaLade]

Dude got MVP last year, but he's barely top 5 PG?

You tell me the last time a MVP came into his next season being barely top 3 at his position, let alone top 5.

Cocaine's a hell of a drug kid :oldlol:

Pg=/=player. You can put Kobe at center and he'll score his 30 pts but will that make him a great center? Make sense?

[Glide2keva]

wtf is this guy saying, just be quiet and stop embarrassing yourself
The things people say just to hate on Rose, right?

Wow at Razor

[RazorBaLade]

wtf is this guy saying, just be quiet and stop embarrassing yourself

i havent seen enough success from rose to be a 1st option that wins, so thats out to be determined, but would he be as good of a 2nd option as someone like rose or cp3 or deron can be? Lol @ being called a Rose hater for thinking he's a t5 NBA player but just not that great of a pg.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

You must not be good with numbers.

Clearly you aren't.



Game 1 Paul destroyed

Paul - 29/6/6 on .650% shooting; Rose - 2/4/7 on .222% shooting


Game 2. Rose won by a little

Rose had more rebounds, but shot significantly worse. I'd say they were equal.


Game 3. Paul won by a few assists.

A few assists? Try 7, and 2 less turnovers.


Game 4. Rose pretty much won easily.

No disputing that

So 2/4, and the 3rd being pretty much a pick'em (NO won that game btw).

[Rose]

Clearly you aren't.


Game 1 Paul destroyed

Paul - 29/6/6 on .650% shooting; Rose - 2/4/7 on .222% shooting

Game 2. Rose won by a little

Rose had more rebounds, but shot significantly worse. I'd say they were equal.

Game 3. Paul won by a few assists.

A few assists? Try 7, and 2 less turnovers.

Game 4. Rose pretty much won easily.

No disputing that

So 2/4, and the 3rd being pretty much a pick'em (NO won that game btw).[/QUOTE]
See it's all a matter of opinion we both can I agree it's either a split or a 3/1. before tonight. In which case Rose has now won 3 out of 5 times :D

[Celtics4ever]

Rose has been the best PG for 2 years. Don't argue against the trolls.

/thread

[RazorBaLade]

Rose has been the best PG for 2 years. Don't argue against the trolls.

/thread

If Kobe played at Center and went out and scored 25 and 5 would he be one of the best centers? This is a tough example not quite like Rose situation but my case is illustrated with this perfectly. Rose does NOT play the way Nash and CP3 and Deron do.

[Kblaze8855]

as a player I think rose is better than all of them.. but from a pg standpoint, NIGHT IN AND NIGHT OUT.. id take those guys first.. idk i might be wrong. i just dont see the PG slot as somethin where a player can go and take 15 shots and 10 fts. Or go and shoot 25+ times like rose has done in the past. it makes him a great player, but pg?

So when Magic Johnson was putting up 27/11 for entire months shooting a lot...he was a great player but not a great point? Or d ohigh assists mean you can also score a lot?

What was mark Price when Terrell Brandon was playing 25-30 minutes a game and Price was off the ball often?

Isiah thomas when he was top 5 in shot attempts?

Cousy when he shot more than anyone in the NBA?

Jerry West leading the NBA in assists but putting up 30ppg?

Nate Archibald leading the league in scoring and assists?

Oscar robertson and his 31ppg?


What is a guy like BJ Armstrong who neither runs the offense, or makesp lays and often didnt even defend the other point if he was a star? A shooting guard?

Are only pass first players point guard even though the players the position was named for were all taking a LOT of shots?

When did point guard stop meaning...running the offense? Is it when running the offense leads to you shooting yourself?

Is a point only looking to get the best shots for his teammates even if those shots are worse thn his own? where is the logic in that?

Who is the point guard on the 90s knicks when Greg Anthony or Derek Harper put people in position to run plays don Nelson calls as Anthony Mason handles the ball?

If the offense runs through Larry Bird s Dee Brown a point guard?

You know that the idea that a primary ball handler who scores a lot while running his offense isnt a great point was invented on the internet by teenagers like 4 years ago and never had a place in basketball right?

Some actl ike rose is Francis waving off the sets to go one on one. He isnt. he runs the offense as its meant to be run. And scores and sets up others in the process. hes a point guard. No less than anyone else.

Everyone at the position doesnt need to play it the same. The very nature of the position is to suit the needs of the team.

Rose doesnt stop being a point when he shoots a lot any more than Bogans stops being a shooting guard when he just plays tough D and misses most of his shots.

Its really not that simple. Point guards dont have to pass a lot any more than shooting guards have to shoot a lot.

Id love to watch a 90s Nuggets game with you tosee what you call Michael Adams in that 1 pass launch up a 3 offense. Probably a shooting guard. Even though he was doing exactly what the offense called on him to do...

Seems thats no longer the goal of the man...running the offense.

[Rose]

I love Kblaze.:bowdown:


And that was a PERFECT 10,000th post.

[Indian guy]

DVR'd the game and watching it right now. Just finished the 1st qtr, and what a godly stretch by Rose to finish it. Every single move was different. Nothing against CP3, but after last season, there's never been any doubt over who the league's best PG is.

[Kellogs4toniee]

i havent seen enough success from rose to be a 1st option that wins, so thats out to be determined, but would he be as good of a 2nd option as someone like rose or cp3 or deron can be? Lol @ being called a Rose hater for thinking he's a t5 NBA player but just not that great of a pg.


You already self-admitted your lack of knowledge in one of your previous posts. Wouldn't it make sense then to re-evaluate your line of thinking given your lack of credibility and the fact everyone is currently disagreeing with you?

I'm not going to re-iterate what everyone else has already said plenty of times already. The only thing I'll reply back to is the bolded part above. So your saying a number one seed, eastern conference finals, and MVP is not enough success as the 1st option, which is what Rose was to the Bulls last year?

You need to check yourself before you wreck yo'self son.

[Celtics4ever]

You already self-admitted your lack of knowledge in one of your previous posts. Wouldn't it make sense then to re-evaluate your line of thinking given your lack of credibility and the fact everyone is currently disagreeing with you?

I'm not going to re-iterate what everyone else has already said plenty of times already. The only thing I'll reply back to is the bolded part above. So your saying a number one seed, eastern conference finals, and MVP is not enough success as the 1st option, which is what Rose was to the Bulls last year?

You need to check yourself before you wreck yo'self son.

The guy is a troll. Don't waste your time bud.

[Glide2keva]

So when Magic Johnson was putting up 27/11 for entire months shooting a lot...he was a great player but not a great point? Or d ohigh assists mean you can also score a lot?

What was mark Price when Terrell Brandon was playing 25-30 minutes a game and Price was off the ball often?

Isiah thomas when he was top 5 in shot attempts?

Cousy when he shot more than anyone in the NBA?

Jerry West leading the NBA in assists but putting up 30ppg?

Nate Archibald leading the league in scoring and assists?

Oscar robertson and his 31ppg?


What is a guy like BJ Armstrong who neither runs the offense, or makesp lays and often didnt even defend the other point if he was a star? A shooting guard?

Are only pass first players point guard even though the players the position was named for were all taking a LOT of shots?

When did point guard stop meaning...running the offense? Is it when running the offense leads to you shooting yourself?

Is a point only looking to get the best shots for his teammates even if those shots are worse thn his own? where is the logic in that?

Who is the point guard on the 90s knicks when Greg Anthony or Derek Harper put people in position to run plays don Nelson calls as Anthony Mason handles the ball?

If the offense runs through Larry Bird s Dee Brown a point guard?

You know that the idea that a primary ball handler who scores a lot while running his offense isnt a great point was invented on the internet by teenagers like 4 years ago and never had a place in basketball right?

Some actl ike rose is Francis waving off the sets to go one on one. He isnt. he runs the offense as its meant to be run. And scores and sets up others in the process. hes a point guard. No less than anyone else.

Everyone at the position doesnt need to play it the same. The very nature of the position is to suit the needs of the team.

Rose doesnt stop being a point when he shoots a lot any more than Bogans stops being a shooting guard when he just plays tough D and misses most of his shots.

Its really not that simple. Point guards dont have to pass a lot any more than shooting guards have to shoot a lot.

Id love to watch a 90s Nuggets game with you tosee what you call Michael Adams in that 1 pass launch up a 3 offense. Probably a shooting guard. Even though he was doing exactly what the offense called on him to do...

Seems thats no longer the goal of the man...running the offense.
This should be stickied for all haters to see.

[Celtics4ever]

So when Magic Johnson was putting up 27/11 for entire months shooting a lot...he was a great player but not a great point? Or d ohigh assists mean you can also score a lot?

What was mark Price when Terrell Brandon was playing 25-30 minutes a game and Price was off the ball often?

Isiah thomas when he was top 5 in shot attempts?

Cousy when he shot more than anyone in the NBA?

Jerry West leading the NBA in assists but putting up 30ppg?

Nate Archibald leading the league in scoring and assists?

Oscar robertson and his 31ppg?


What is a guy like BJ Armstrong who neither runs the offense, or makesp lays and often didnt even defend the other point if he was a star? A shooting guard?

Are only pass first players point guard even though the players the position was named for were all taking a LOT of shots?

When did point guard stop meaning...running the offense? Is it when running the offense leads to you shooting yourself?

Is a point only looking to get the best shots for his teammates even if those shots are worse thn his own? where is the logic in that?

Who is the point guard on the 90s knicks when Greg Anthony or Derek Harper put people in position to run plays don Nelson calls as Anthony Mason handles the ball?

If the offense runs through Larry Bird s Dee Brown a point guard?

You know that the idea that a primary ball handler who scores a lot while running his offense isnt a great point was invented on the internet by teenagers like 4 years ago and never had a place in basketball right?

Some actl ike rose is Francis waving off the sets to go one on one. He isnt. he runs the offense as its meant to be run. And scores and sets up others in the process. hes a point guard. No less than anyone else.

Everyone at the position doesnt need to play it the same. The very nature of the position is to suit the needs of the team.

Rose doesnt stop being a point when he shoots a lot any more than Bogans stops being a shooting guard when he just plays tough D and misses most of his shots.

Its really not that simple. Point guards dont have to pass a lot any more than shooting guards have to shoot a lot.

Id love to watch a 90s Nuggets game with you tosee what you call Michael Adams in that 1 pass launch up a 3 offense. Probably a shooting guard. Even though he was doing exactly what the offense called on him to do...

Seems thats no longer the goal of the man...running the offense.

Kblaze, is it possible for you to ban this razorbalade kid? The dude is obviously trolling hard.

[BoogieWoogieMan]

Brilliant 10,000 post

That just brought a tear to my eye. Bravo, good sir! Bravo! :applause:

[SuperPippen]

Kblaze is the Derrick Rose of this forum. :bowdown:

[juju151111]

If Kobe played at Center and went out and scored 25 and 5 would he be one of the best centers? This is a tough example not quite like Rose situation but my case is illustrated with this perfectly. Rose does NOT play the way Nash and CP3 and Deron do.
This example would make sense if Rose was a SG, but he isnt.

[RazorBaLade]

I'm not trolling guys. I have a differing opinion of a player that does not degrade him in any way, calm the hell down.

So, reading all you guys have now posted, I ask 1 question.

If Rose is a real true PG, and doesn't lean towards SG in any way, then what are Rondo and Cp3? Do you feel that these 3 players I just mentioned are in the same exact category of getting their teammates involved?

If you put all 3 on the lakers, would they all thrive in getting everyone involved without pissing off any superstars taking their shots away? If you put them all on the Nets instead of deron (not together, one at a time) would they all 3 make a run at the scoring title or only one of them? Are they all plain old PGs ala Nash and not leaning in any way towards being a SG?

Just this last question is all i need answered to change my opinion (or to not change it).

[Go Getter]

I'm not trolling guys. I have a differing opinion of a player that does not degrade him in any way, calm the hell down.

So, reading all you guys have now posted, I ask 1 question.

If Rose is a real true PG, and doesn't lean towards SG in any way, then what are Rondo and Cp3? Do you feel that these 3 players I just mentioned are in the same exact category of getting their teammates involved?

If you put all 3 on the lakers, would they all thrive in getting everyone involved without pissing off any superstars taking their shots away? If you put them all on the Nets instead of deron (not together, one at a time) would they all 3 make a run at the scoring title or only one of them? Are they all plain old PGs ala Nash and not leaning in any way towards being a SG?

Just this last question is all i need answered to change my opinion (or to not change it).
You still don't get it.:facepalm

[RazorBaLade]

You already self-admitted your lack of knowledge in one of your previous posts. Wouldn't it make sense then to re-evaluate your line of thinking given your lack of credibility and the fact everyone is currently disagreeing with you?

I'm not going to re-iterate what everyone else has already said plenty of times already. The only thing I'll reply back to is the bolded part above. So your saying a number one seed, eastern conference finals, and MVP is not enough success as the 1st option, which is what Rose was to the Bulls last year?

You need to check yourself before you wreck yo'self son.

He has not proved he can be the best player on a winning (read: championship) team. Neither have a lot of players, but I think hes just in that range where he might not work as a 2nd option either in the case hes not a 1st.

[RazorBaLade]

You still don't get it.:facepalm

Well please just respond and I mean if you answer that question with some good points then I will not disagree.. or actually any points.. just tell me theres no difference between how rondo and rose play.

[Go Getter]

Well please just respond and I mean if you answer that question with some good points then I will not disagree.. or actually any points.. just tell me theres no difference between how rondo and rose play.


There are different styles of PG play man. I'm not going to argue with you. K Blaze laid it out pretty cleanly. If you disagree that's cool, but I think the correct line of thinking is held within that last post (K Blaze made).

[RazorBaLade]

There are different styles of PG play man. I'm not going to argue with you. K Blaze laid it out pretty cleanly. If you disagree that's cool, but I think the correct line of thinking is held within that last post (K Blaze made).

so what do we disagree on? Theres different styles of pg, ala True PG and then what rose and certain others play which has a hint of SG style in it. What are we disagreeing on?

[Rhinox]

facepalm.jpg

[Rhinox]

facepalm.jpg

[Kblaze8855]

I didnt say you were "trolling"(im not sure ive ever typed that word before by the way). And at least you are clearly thinking out the things you say. I just dont think you have really looked into the point guard position. And I think it because of questions like this:


If Rose is a real true PG, and doesn't lean towards SG in any way, then what are Rondo and Cp3? Do you feel that these 3 players I just mentioned are in the same exact category of getting their teammates involved?


Its like asking if Reggie Miller and Kobe are both 2 guard when they play nothing alike.

Two people not being the same doesnt mean they dont play the same position.

I mean...how similar are Magic Johnson and Eric snow?

One is a 6'9'' do everything posting up, passing wizard, who cant be stopped on the fast break, can grab 20 rebounds, or shoot 3s. The other is a 6'2'' no handles, average passing, no jumper having, layup missing, man to man defender who didnt really have control of his teams offense even when he was getting a number of assists.

Nothing alike.

But which one is a shooting guard or...small forward? What?

If they arent the same they require a different label yes? Lets say Magic is a point forward.

The backup point guard was Michael Cooper. A...swingman who kinda leans more towards being a forward.

so what then?

When Magic is out and instead of a 6'9'' point they have a 6'6'' defense first swingman at the point...

Is there no point?

Is the offense not run?

You gotta get past trying to make player what you think their position calls for.

When Isiah Thomas needs to shoot 20 times a game hes not a small shooting guard and hes not the purest of points when he takes 13 a game and passes all night.

Hes...in a different system with different teammates.

Which changes what you are asked to do. Not who you are or what you are capable of.

Point guards have been around for 60 years but they only started being called that a lot in the late 60s to the 70s. before that it was just guard, forwards, and a pivot/center.

The words mean nothing really.

Cousy wasnt a shooting guard because he shot the most in the NBA and Brad Miller wasnt a point when the Kings offense ran through him.

But the players the word came to represent....Tiny Archibald...Walt Frazier...Pistol Pete...Magic, Isiah, Oscar, and so on...

Im not sure you would call them point guards either if you watch their games in their primes. Aside from Magic perhaps. which is funny to me because he was playing 3-5 positions......

A point seeking to pass and pass and pass and pass just makes him one kind of point. It doesnt make them "true" points.

The word predates any notion that they are supposed to set others up more than just get the team good shots.

Shit Bob Cousy played center some times in the 50s....nobody would tell you he isnt a point guard.

[Go Getter]

so what do we disagree on? Theres different styles of pg, ala True PG and then what rose and certain others play which has a hint of SG style in it. What are we disagreeing on?
There isn't a "hint" of SG style. He is an attacking PG (or that's his biggest strength).

Distributing
Balanced
Defensive
Attacking/Shoot First

There is no such thing as a "true" PG...the team and coach defines how he/they want the PG to play.

[The_Yearning]

Yes.

He is definitely better than CPIII and D-Will... these two fat slobs have fallen off.

[ThatsGame]

The best PG is obviously Norris Cole.

[RazorBaLade]

Kblaze I welcome that difference between kobe and miller though. I don't think Ray and Reggie are the same players as Kobe even though they play the same position. That means, yes, if I was making a list of t5 SG's that I would not put Ray in that list but would have Kobe there. But if it was a spot up shooting SG list, I'd put ray in there before Kobe. That doesn't take away from Kobe, it just means ray and reggie might be better spot up sgs that dont create. that was the misunderstanding here.

TRUE was just a bad word because as you've pointed out, it means nothing and is perhaps even a relatively new style of play. I guess it just pissed people off because its not the correct choice of words.. True implies that someone else isn't being a PG correctly, and thats just not right. Its just a different style.

If we go by PG POSITION, as in, everyone who plays in PG then I have Rose 1st. If I go by the way I like to see the PG position played, as in, a certain style of distribution in which the PG doesn't really take over, I'd take him 5th. This makes sense now I think and is nothing crazy.


There is no such thing as a "true" PG...the team and coach defines how he/they want the PG to play.

I don't think CP3 would turn into a different player at the request of a coach... Don't they plan their gameplan around their players, not force someone like westbrook to suddenly play like rondo? But yeah the true thing is messed up. Just dumb wording. I'd be pissed myself is someone said Kobe isn't a true SG so he shouldn't be called in a list of best SGs. It was retarded. I was just referring to a slightly different style of play that is still in the realm of being a PG by definition.

[Tenchi Ryu]

The best PG is obviously Norris Cole.
Not trying to gain any credibilty, huh

[ThatsGame]

Not trying to gain any credibilty, huh

Don't have any sarcasm detectors, huh

Don't give a shit what you think either, btw.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Don't have any sarcasm detectors, huh
Not for you.....no

[Go Getter]

Kblaze I welcome that difference between kobe and miller though. I don't think Ray and Reggie are the same players as Kobe even though they play the same position. That means, yes, if I was making a list of t5 SG's that I would not put Ray in that list but would have Kobe there. But if it was a spot up shooting SG list, I'd put ray in there before Kobe. That doesn't take away from Kobe, it just means ray and reggie might be better spot up sgs that dont create. that was the misunderstanding here.

TRUE was just a bad word because as you've pointed out, it means nothing and is perhaps even a relatively new style of play. I guess it just pissed people off because its not the correct choice of words.. True implies that someone else isn't being a PG correctly, and thats just not right. Its just a different style.

If we go by PG POSITION, as in, everyone who plays in PG then I have Rose 1st. If I go by the way I like to see the PG position played, as in, a certain style of distribution in which the PG doesn't really take over, I'd take him 5th. This makes sense now I think and is nothing crazy.



I don't think CP3 would turn into a different player at the request of a coach... Don't they plan their gameplan around their players, not force someone like westbrook to suddenly play like rondo? But yeah the true thing is messed up. Just dumb wording. I'd be pissed myself is someone said Kobe isn't a true SG so he shouldn't be called in a list of best SGs. It was retarded. I was just referring to a slightly different style of play that is still in the realm of being a PG by definition.
Great players adjust their games to win.

If CP3 was on a team that needed him to shoot 18-25 times a game to win then why wouldn't he?

[Go Getter]

Kblaze I welcome that difference between kobe and miller though. I don't think Ray and Reggie are the same players as Kobe even though they play the same position. That means, yes, if I was making a list of t5 SG's that I would not put Ray in that list but would have Kobe there. But if it was a spot up shooting SG list, I'd put ray in there before Kobe. That doesn't take away from Kobe, it just means ray and reggie might be better spot up sgs that dont create. that was the misunderstanding here.

TRUE was just a bad word because as you've pointed out, it means nothing and is perhaps even a relatively new style of play. I guess it just pissed people off because its not the correct choice of words.. True implies that someone else isn't being a PG correctly, and thats just not right. Its just a different style.

If we go by PG POSITION, as in, everyone who plays in PG then I have Rose 1st. If I go by the way I like to see the PG position played, as in, a certain style of distribution in which the PG doesn't really take over, I'd take him 5th. This makes sense now I think and is nothing crazy.



I don't think CP3 would turn into a different player at the request of a coach... Don't they plan their gameplan around their players, not force someone like westbrook to suddenly play like rondo? But yeah the true thing is messed up. Just dumb wording. I'd be pissed myself is someone said Kobe isn't a true SG so he shouldn't be called in a list of best SGs. It was retarded. I was just referring to a slightly different style of play that is still in the realm of being a PG by definition.
Sounds like you're complicating the criteria so that you can hold players you like more than Rose higher than him, lol.

THE COACH decides who the PG is, point blank period. Rose plays PG. He can adequately guard other points, yet few points can guard him at all off the dribble. This alone makes him elite.

Who cares what guy takes over? As long as it's a team effort the person who actually makes the shots is trivial.

Rose took over with 29 points and 16 assists.

Let Nash or Curry have done this and the board would explode, talking about how the likes of Rose could never balance scoring and distribution so well, smh.

[RazorBaLade]

Great players adjust their games to win.

If CP3 was on a team that needed him to shoot 18-25 times a game to win then why wouldn't he?

I dunno, theres gotta be a reason he doesnt do that? Like in NOH he could have done that.. But thats not the player he is. The coach won't change him. I mean bron on cleveland for example that team would be better if he shot 5 more times a game and everyone realizes it, but theres a reason he didnt, right? Is he not a great player?


Sounds like you're complicating the criteria so that you can hold players you like more than Rose higher than him, lol.

THE COACH decides who the PG is, point blank period. Rose plays PG. He can adequately guard other points, yet few points can guard him at all off the dribble. This alone makes him elite.

In a list of best NBA players, I would put rose above them.. Don't have to believe me, I guess.

[Kblaze8855]

If we go by PG POSITION, as in, everyone who plays in PG then I have Rose 1st. If I go by the way I like to see the PG position played, as in, a certain style of distribution in which the PG doesn't really take over, I'd take him 5th.

The way you like to see it played is often done by players with less ability to play basketball because they dont have the talent to impose their will on games...

And its not like the way you want it played has resulted in any great deal of success.

Teams that play the way you seem to want often build themselves to suit that playmaking first point and it leads to shitty defenses and offensive minded guys there to help that point play his best. You dont surround steve nash with rugged defenders and rebounders. you give him finishers and guys with jumpers.

Its hard to win with a pass happy point because at some point...you gotta get the ball into the basket and its not system time. Its stepping up time. And so many of those quick to defer types have to take a backseat at such times they end up leaning on worse players to get them over the hump.

The balance can be found. Magic found it. Few others. But its hard.

Guys like Paul, Nash, Deron, Magic, Isiah, Payton, and even Kidd and Stockton have all shined the brightest while doing something other than just hitting a teammate. Be it Nash putting up 30ppg on the mavs, deron going apeshit on the spurs, Magics 43 in the finals to win as a rooie, Isiahs 16 points in 90 seconds or 25 in the 4th on a bad ankle....or Kidd backing down vs the Pistons to make the game winner in the ECF back on the Nets when Mr.No Look dropped 20ppg in back to back finals runs...

Even John Stockton. The biggest moment of his career? 9 points down the stretch and the 3 to send them t othe finals the first time. Jumping for joy having sent them to the promised land.

Im not saying passing isnt needed. Or is in any way overrated.

But I think many fans(often...newer fans) get caught up in it t othe point that they ignore the reasons some players pass and the reasons some players tend to shoot.

More often than not...the true greats? They pass when the team is better for it and take over when the team needs it. And its hard to lead when you cant show the team they can get on your shoulders and win down the stretch.

Sometimes leadership is getting everyone going. Sometimes its getting yourself going when its best. As Kenny smith said....the hardest thing for a young point to do is to learn to say no. To NOT pass to the open man. To not give it to ____ when you want ___ to have it. Or yourself.

But the greats learn it. All of them. Without exception.

And truth be told...the better you are...the more often "No" is the right thing to say.

[Celtics4ever]

The way you like to see it played is often done by players with less ability to play basketball because they dont have the talent to impose their will on games...

And its not like the way you want it played has resulted in any great deal of success.

Teams that play the way you seem to want often build themselves to suit that playmaking first point and it leads to shitty defenses and offensive minded guys there to help that point play his best. You dont surround steve nash with rugged defenders and rebounders. you give him finishers and guys with jumpers.

Its hard to win with a pass happy point because at some point...you gotta get the ball into the basket and its not system time. Its stepping up time. And so many of those quick to defer types have to take a backseat at such times they end up leaning on worse players to get them over the hump.

The balance can be found. Magic found it. Few others. But its hard.

Guys like Paul, Nash, Deron, Magic, Isiah, Payton, and even Kidd and Stockton have all shined the brightest while doing something other than just hitting a teammate. Be it Nash putting up 30ppg on the mavs, deron going apeshit on the spurs, Magics 43 in the finals to win as a rooie, Isiahs 16 points in 90 seconds or 25 in the 4th on a bad ankle....or Kidd backing down vs the Pistons to make the game winner in the ECF back on the Nets when Mr.No Look dropped 20ppg in back to back finals runs...

Even John Stockton. The biggest moment of his career? 9 points down the stretch and the 3 to send them t othe finals the first time. Jumping for joy having sent them to the promised land.

Im not saying passing isnt needed. Or is in any way overrated.

But I think many fans(often...newer fans) get caught up in it t othe point that they ignore the reasons some players pass and the reasons some players tend to shoot.

More often than not...the true greats? They pass when the team is better for it and take over when the team needs it. And its hard to lead when you cant show the team they can get on your shoulders and win down the stretch.

Sometimes leadership is getting everyone going. Sometimes its getting yourself going when its best. As Kenny smith said....the hardest thing for a young point to do is to learn to say no. To NOT pass to the open man. To not give it to ____ when you want ___ to have it. Or yourself.

But the greats learn it. All of them. Without exception.

And truth be told...the better you are...the more often "No" is the right thing to say.

Just ban razorbalade. He is a 12 year old kid. :oldlol:

[RazorBaLade]

The way you like to see it played is often done by players with less ability to play basketball because they dont have the talent to impose their will on games...

And its not like the way you want it played has resulted in any great deal of success.

Teams that play the way you seem to want often build themselves to suit that playmaking first point and it leads to shitty defenses and offensive minded guys there to help that point play his best. You dont surround steve nash with rugged defenders and rebounders. you give him finishers and guys with jumpers.

Its hard to win with a pass happy point because at some point...you gotta get the ball into the basket and its not system time. Its stepping up time. And so many of those quick to defer types have to take a backseat at such times they end up leaning on worse players to get them over the hump.

The balance can be found. Magic found it. Few others. But its hard.

Guys like Paul, Nash, Deron, Magic, Isiah, Payton, and even Kidd and Stockton have all shined the brightest while doing something other than just hitting a teammate. Be it Nash putting up 30ppg on the mavs, deron going apeshit on the spurs, Magics 43 in the finals to win as a rooie, Isiahs 16 points in 90 seconds or 25 in the 4th on a bad ankle....or Kidd backing down vs the Pistons to make the game winner in the ECF back on the Nets when Mr.No Look dropped 20ppg in back to back finals runs...

Even John Stockton. The biggest moment of his career? 9 points down the stretch and the 3 to send them t othe finals the first time. Jumping for joy having sent them to the promised land.

Im not saying passing isnt needed. Or is in any way overrated.

But I think many fans(often...newer fans) get caught up in it t othe point that they ignore the reasons some players pass and the reasons some players tend to shoot.

More often than not...the true greats? They pass when the team is better for it and take over when the team needs it. And its hard to lead when you cant show the team they can get on your shoulders and win down the stretch.

Sometimes leadership is getting everyone going. Sometimes its getting yourself going when its best. As Kenny smith said....the hardest thing for a young point to do is to learn to say no. To NOT pass to the open man. To not give it to ____ when you want ___ to have it. Or yourself.

But the greats learn it. All of them. Without exception.

And truth be told...the better you are...the more often "No" is the right thing to say.

Oddly enough, what you say is exactly the reason I like Kobe and hate Bron's style of play for. I'd rather see a guy go down shooting than passing to scrubs. I think cp3 would be much more successful if he shot more. but theres something cool about trusting scrubs and accepting the 2nd option. Idk. let me ask you this though

you say that these guys are usually all pass heavy like nash and rondo and cp3 because they are not really go to guys.. they are betas. I agree. They havent been successful. But how about the PGs that DO score like that? How successful have rose and isiah and iverson been compared to magic and stockton and nash and rondo? I'm sure you can name more players in both categories than I can.

Don't you think that usually, the PG is going to be the 2nd option, and in which case a lesser player , a true great pg, is STILL most likely going to need to be the 2nd option, is better to have that willingness to pass and not takeover instead of playing like westbrook?

To elaborate, if both AI and CP3 aren't good enough to be 1st options on contenders, but AI clearly has that ability to impose his will on games.. Wouldn't you rather have a CP3 type guy who would never even TRY to be the 1st op?

[DMAVS41]

The way you like to see it played is often done by players with less ability to play basketball because they dont have the talent to impose their will on games...

And its not like the way you want it played has resulted in any great deal of success.

Teams that play the way you seem to want often build themselves to suit that playmaking first point and it leads to shitty defenses and offensive minded guys there to help that point play his best. You dont surround steve nash with rugged defenders and rebounders. you give him finishers and guys with jumpers.

Its hard to win with a pass happy point because at some point...you gotta get the ball into the basket and its not system time. Its stepping up time. And so many of those quick to defer types have to take a backseat at such times they end up leaning on worse players to get them over the hump.

The balance can be found. Magic found it. Few others. But its hard.

Guys like Paul, Nash, Deron, Magic, Isiah, Payton, and even Kidd and Stockton have all shined the brightest while doing something other than just hitting a teammate. Be it Nash putting up 30ppg on the mavs, deron going apeshit on the spurs, Magics 43 in the finals to win as a rooie, Isiahs 16 points in 90 seconds or 25 in the 4th on a bad ankle....or Kidd backing down vs the Pistons to make the game winner in the ECF back on the Nets when Mr.No Look dropped 20ppg in back to back finals runs...

Even John Stockton. The biggest moment of his career? 9 points down the stretch and the 3 to send them t othe finals the first time. Jumping for joy having sent them to the promised land.

Im not saying passing isnt needed. Or is in any way overrated.

But I think many fans(often...newer fans) get caught up in it t othe point that they ignore the reasons some players pass and the reasons some players tend to shoot.

More often than not...the true greats? They pass when the team is better for it and take over when the team needs it. And its hard to lead when you cant show the team they can get on your shoulders and win down the stretch.

Sometimes leadership is getting everyone going. Sometimes its getting yourself going when its best. As Kenny smith said....the hardest thing for a young point to do is to learn to say no. To NOT pass to the open man. To not give it to ____ when you want ___ to have it. Or yourself.

But the greats learn it. All of them. Without exception.

And truth be told...the better you are...the more often "No" is the right thing to say.


Totally agree with the bold....but are you saying Paul doesn't do that? Because I think he's been the best pg at mixing in both carrying a team when they need it and facilitating when they need it.

And his ability to control a game in crunch time is absolutely not matched by anyone yet. Although if Rose plays like he did tonight then he'll be there as well.

[(e)]

This Razorblade kid is a fcking retard.

[Kblaze8855]

You ask about success....but really Magic is it as far as guys considered pass first. And Magic at his peak was the 3rd highest scorig guard in the NBa after jordan and Dale ellis. When he set the finals assist record it was when he was getting called Tragic Johnson and just flat out threw away a game or two late. The peak of his legacy far as one game...he had 43/15 and played 5 positions. He put up 27, 25, and 25 a game in the middle 3 months of the best season of his career. Magic Johnson is to me the best passer of all time. But he was not what you seem to think a "true" point is. So I feel a need to throw him out of the success question because if anything....he belongs on the "Dont just pass the ball" end of things.

You ask about the team success of these people....

Its been said many times that people called "pure" points dont win it all. And its not exactly inaccurate. But I dont think we are just talking about winning it all. You talk about ability to contend...

Its about even or in favor of points willing/able to score a good bit. Even the pass first types like Kidd were scoring 20 a game in the playoffs. But im not sure what contending is to you since you mentioned that AI couldnt do it as a first option. If making the finals isnt contending what is?

People vary so much on what they even consider a pass first point is....and what contending is...

Its not hard to look into the history of the matter. I happen to know most of these things off the top of my head but its been a borderline obsession with me for a couple decades.

I dont see is ending up eye to eye on this matter and dont feel like several hours explaining why. I'll just say this....

When you have really paid attention to the league for a while I suspect you stop seeing it as a cut and dry thing.

Ive seen too many players in different roles from team to team to just say....____ is a point guard and ____ isnt because of what his team asks of him.

A guy like Damon Jones might do nothing but shoot 3s and pass 4 times a week or he might average like 7 assists in only 20 minutes on the Bucks due to nothing but the system.

The game is not as simple as some try to make it out to be.

[mrpibb]

Rose? Better than Devin Harris? Get out of here. :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

Totally agree with the bold....but are you saying Paul doesn't do that?

No. No I am not.

I dont think ive ever even said Rose is the best point in the NBA or really said anything to discredit Paul.

Its not an issue I feel that strongly on.

[RazorBaLade]

You ask about success....but really Magic is it as far as guys considered pass first. And Magic at his peak was the 3rd highest scorig guard in the NBa after jordan and Dale ellis. When he set the finals assist record it was when he was getting called Tragic Johnson and just flat out threw away a game or two late. The peak of his legacy far as one game...he had 43/15 and played 5 positions. He put up 27, 25, and 25 a game in the middle 3 months of the best season of his career. Magic Johnson is to me the best passer of all time. But he was not what you seem to think a "true" point is. So I feel a need to throw him out of the success question because if anything....he belongs on the "Dont just pass the ball" end of things.

You ask about the team success of these people....

Its been said many times that people called "pure" points dont win it all. And its not exactly inaccurate. But I dont think we are just talking about winning it all. You talk about ability to contend...

Its about even or in favor of points willing/able to score a good bit. Even the pass first types like Kidd were scoring 20 a game in the playoffs. But im not sure what contending is to you since you mentioned that AI couldnt do it as a first option. If making the finals isnt contending what is?

People vary so much on what they even consider a pass first point is....and what contending is...

Its not hard to look into the history of the matter. I happen to know most of these things off the top of my head but its been a borderline obsession with me for a couple decades.

I dont see is ending up eye to eye on this matter and dont feel like several hours explaining why. I'll just say this....

When you have really paid attention to the league for a while I suspect you stop seeing it as a cut and dry thing.

Ive seen too many players in different roles from team to team to just say....____ is a point guard and ____ isnt because of what his team asks of him.

A guy like Damon Jones might do nothing but shoot 3s and pass 4 times a week or he might average like 7 assists in only 20 minutes on the Bucks due to nothing but the system.

The game is not as simple as some try to make it out to be.

I see what you're saying.. basically I am/was just looking at it as more often than not a PG isn't going to the best player on the team or the go to guy. If one is, that team probably won't win a championship based on history. So you take a PG like rondo to surround your superstars, not a pg like westbrook. You take a PG that can give 12 assists instead of 20 pts, because both sides may very well fail to win a championship as 1 but I think one works better than the other as a 2nd option and most likely what a PG would be. You take cp3/deron on the lakers/heat, not rose. To rebuild, either would most likely result in failure.

But i can see why that might be narrow minded and make basketball way more black/white than it is, you make good points but its not something I can go for until I continue watching and just see it for myself. I really have trouble believing the bold, blows my mind, but I'm a noobie. Been watching the nba SERIOUSLY for like maybe 6-7 seasons max. Dunno. And I was talking about winning it all whether or not I said it, I don't care much for losing at the last stage as a reason for praise in any stretch.

[DFish]

Any top 3 PG rankings that include Rose, Williams & Paul are reasonable and multiple orders can be argued. But if your top 3 PG list doesn't include Rose, DWill and CP3, you are quite obviously biased. That is all.

[NBAller]

Wait, Rose is a PG? That's news.

[klee]

Any top 3 PG rankings that include Rose, Williams & Paul are reasonable and multiple orders can be argued. But if your top 3 PG list doesn't include Rose, DWill and CP3, you are quite obviously biased. That is all.
This post is inherently biased and, thus, also ironic because you're calling out others on something you're doing. It's actually not even that I disagree with your rankings--it's that when you have something as difficult as "basketball skill" to quantitatively measure and rank, it's just near impossible to flat out formulate the "correct" top 3 PG ranking in our current league with the level of talent that's out there. It makes it even more ludicrous (or at least entertaining?) by saying "everyone else who disagrees is biased".

[MASH Transit]

I can't wait until the playoffs.

Edit: Anyone know why sample sizes have relevance? Well, answer this. Steph Curry completely outplayed Derrick Rose a few nights ago. Is he the best PG in the league? Is he a better PG than Rose? Think on that.

[I.R.Beast]

Rose didn't even take 20 shots today or any point yet this season.
im sure the haters are gonna find some other reason to hate on rose

[SuperPippen]

I can't wait until the playoffs.

Edit: Anyone know why sample sizes have relevance? Well, answer this. Steph Curry completely outplayed Derrick Rose a few nights ago. Is he the best PG in the league? Is he a better PG than Rose? Think on that.

Has Curry maintained as high a level of play as Rose for more than 1 game? No.
Is Curry better than Rose statistically? No.
Did Curry's team make it farther into the playoffs than Rose's did? No.



Don't act like this is the first time Rose has played this well. He wouldn't have won the MVP if that were the case (BTW, whether you personally believe Rose deserved the MVP or not is irrelevant).

[Zenji]

I absolutely love the point guard position and i love watching guys who can play the hell out of the position. The one thing that seperates great point guards from good point guards is decision making and unselfishness. The haters will tell you Rose isn't a true PG and that he takes too many shots. If you actually watch the Bulls play you see a kid who is very unselfish and a great teammate. He shoots a lot because that is what is needed from him for his team to succeed.

He is not Allen Iverson or Russell Westbrook, Rose is a true PG and a team leader who is actually still getting better. There is a lot more to the position then trying to rack up assist like Westbrook getting mad at a teammate for not shooting the ball and giving him his meaningless statistic.

[lbj23clutch]

Rose is the better OVERALL PLAYER, but I see Paul as a better POINT GUARD. Meaning as a passer, court awareness, decision making, controlling the tempo, setting up teammates, and running an offense.

Don't get me wrong, D-Rose appears to have improved his point guard skills even further this season. He's taking less shots, plays alot smarter and I think he's figured out the right balance of when to set up his teammates and when to shoot.

[Zenji]

Rose is the better OVERALL PLAYER, but I see Paul as a better POINT GUARD. Meaning as a passer, court awareness, controlling the tempo, setting up teammates, and running an offense.

I completely understand where you are coming from. Paul & say DWill have a more prototypical true pg style. But Derrick Rose is a better player (and therefor point guard as it is the position all three play) then both and i don't even think it's that close.

[All Net]

I still feel rose would be best suited at SG... Hard to con pare him to guys like Paul and deron

[NBAller]

What Chris Paul did with DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin in the pick and rolls is what a point guard would do, imo.

They're running the offense, they aren't the offense (though they can be)The fact that Paul does this, and can score at will when his teammates aren't open makes him the better PG in my opinion, and also puts him above Deron.

If I had to compare a PG (floor general) to a QB (field general), it would be something like Rose = Tebow. Chris Paul = uhhh Brady.

But overall Rose is the better player, easily. I just don't think he's the better point guard.

[klee]

What Chris Paul did with DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin in the pick and rolls is what a point guard would do, imo.

They're running the offense, they aren't the offense (though they can be)The fact that Paul does this, and can score at will when his teammates aren't open makes him the better PG in my opinion, and also puts him above Deron.

If I had to compare a PG (floor general) to a QB (field general), it would be something like Rose = Tebow. Chris Paul = uhhh Brady.

But overall Rose is the better player, easily. I just don't think he's the better point guard.

...wow. :facepalm

[Kblaze8855]

If I had to compare a PG (floor general) to a QB (field general), it would be something like Rose = Tebow. Chris Paul = uhhh Brady.

Having seen you make that comparison more than once one thing is obvious...you either dont watch football or you dont watch basketball.

[NBAller]

...wow. :facepalm

That's how I feel about your opinion too. Nice rebuttal by the way, you got me!

[Vienceslav]

MVP , All NBA 1st team at the PG spot.
I know the notion that people here as the real fans know better than the so called experts is very nice and all that , but i

[lbj23clutch]

What Chris Paul did with DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin in the pick and rolls is what a point guard would do, imo.

They're running the offense, they aren't the offense (though they can be)The fact that Paul does this, and can score at will when his teammates aren't open makes him the better PG in my opinion, and also puts him above Deron.

If I had to compare a PG (floor general) to a QB (field general), it would be something like Rose = Tebow. Chris Paul = uhhh Brady.

But overall Rose is the better player, easily. I just don't think he's the better point guard.
Horrible comparison. :wtf:

[RazorBaLade]

Rose is the better OVERALL PLAYER, but I see Paul as a better POINT GUARD. Meaning as a passer, court awareness, decision making, controlling the tempo, setting up teammates, and running an offense.

Don't get me wrong, D-Rose appears to have improved his point guard skills even further this season. He's taking less shots, plays alot smarter and I think he's figured out the right balance of when to set up his teammates and when to shoot.


I completely understand where you are coming from. Paul & say DWill have a more prototypical true pg style. But Derrick Rose is a better player (and therefor point guard as it is the position all three play) then both and i don't even think it's that close.


3 people now total that agree with me (+nballer) it means nothing of course but at least its better than just me being alone against 25 bulls fans and blaze. Good stuff. Glad to know its at least a valid opinion to separate the 2's playstyles.

[NBAller]

Having seen you make that comparison more than once one thing is obvious...you either dont watch football or you dont watch basketball.

a QB and a Pg are both supposed to be passers. Tebow a lot of the time runs the ball as Rose a lot of the time shoots the ball. So they're both the core of the offense.

Brady passes the ball a lot more than he runs it, so he's doing 50% of the job, as the reciever has to do the other 50% by catching it. Like Paul will lob DJ the ball, then it's up to DJ to finish it.

Tebow throws a lot of interceptions and sometimes makes great passes, as Rose sometimes has horrible games in the assist column, and then great ones like yesterday.

[JrueHoliday11]

Rose is the better OVERALL PLAYER, but I see Paul as a better POINT GUARD. Meaning as a passer, court awareness, decision making, controlling the tempo, setting up teammates, and running an offense.

Don't get me wrong, D-Rose appears to have improved his point guard skills even further this season. He's taking less shots, plays alot smarter and I think he's figured out the right balance of when to set up his teammates and when to shoot.
this is true.. cp3 is by far a better play maker but rose can do it all

[Vienceslav]

a QB and a Pg are both supposed to be passers. Tebow a lot of the time runs the ball as Rose a lot of the time shoots the ball. So they're both the core of the offense.

Brady passes the ball a lot more than he runs it, so he's doing 50% of the job, as the reciever has to do the other 50% by catching it. Like Paul will lob DJ the ball, then it's up to DJ to finish it.
The right comparison is that ROSE = NEWTON and PAUL = BREES.
If you watch football you will get it.

[NBAller]

The right comparison is that ROSE = NEWTON and PAUL = BREES.
If you watch football you will get it.

Because I don't watch every single team doesn't mean I don't watch football.

If you had a brain you might've realized that before I told you.

[Vienceslav]

Because I don't watch every single team doesn't mean I don't watch football.

If you had a brain you might've realized that before I told you.
Here we go with the brain existence questioning.
Not trying to be disrespectful , just showing you the light.

[NBAller]

Here we go with the brain existence questioning.
Not trying to be disrespectful , just showing you the light.

Well, I got to admit Brees was a better choice when trying to make a comparison. I can't say the same for Newton cause I don't watch the Panthers. I just wanted to make an example that would get my point across and by the looks of things, I did that.

[Go Getter]

What Chris Paul did with DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin in the pick and rolls is what a point guard would do, imo.

They're running the offense, they aren't the offense (though they can be)The fact that Paul does this, and can score at will when his teammates aren't open makes him the better PG in my opinion, and also puts him above Deron.

If I had to compare a PG (floor general) to a QB (field general), it would be something like Rose = Tebow. Chris Paul = uhhh Brady.

But overall Rose is the better player, easily. I just don't think he's the better point guard.
Yeah show me a game where Tebow has more passing yards than Brady:facepalm

16 assists. 16. People need to stop acting like Rose doesn't get others involved.

[NBAller]

Yeah show me a game where Tebow has more passing yards than Brady:facepalm

16 assists. 16. People need to stop acting like Rose doesn't get others involved.

oh so because lebron had a bad playoff series that means he sucks right?

[Vienceslav]

Well, I got to admit Brees was a better choice when trying to make a comparison. I can't say the same for Newton cause I don't watch the Panthers. I just wanted to make an example that would get my point across and by the looks of things, I did that.
Your comparison is not flawed really , it goes to show the difference between the traditional passer and the athletic runner and how can that be very easily applied on the NBA point guards.
What i meant by Newton was that he is an elite athlete(so is Tebow btw he has 38in vert) and already a very good and improving passer(making the analogy of Rose improving his shooting) , Tebow on the other hand can run with the best of them ,but his passing can at times be questionable(not in the 4th against Chicago of course).Tebow would compare better to Westbrook or so.
But i basically agree with the premise you presented, that the conflict between passer and runner is great and i would add that it is very hard to objectively compare them , the best way probably is just to look at the win column if the both perform at the top of their respective games(eg. giving the edge to Rose over CP3 bc of his winning record against him and his overall wins last season).

[Kblaze8855]

a QB and a Pg are both supposed to be passers. Tebow a lot of the time runs the ball as Rose a lot of the time shoots the ball. So they're both the core of the offense.

Brady passes the ball a lot more than he runs it, so he's doing 50% of the job, as the reciever has to do the other 50% by catching it. Like Paul will lob DJ the ball, then it's up to DJ to finish it

Um...Tim Tebow is considered by some people whos life is football skills evaluations....to be the worst starter in football and the 4th best QB on his team a couple months ago. Derrick Rose is an all star, MVP, all NBA player who is HOF bound if healthy. If you were going to compare him to a QB it could be done with dozens who arent considered the worst player at the positions. for example..a young superstar who runs along the lines of..Cam Newton. Or even...Steve Young or elway in their youth.

You however...compared the MVP of the NBA to a guy who experts cant even agree should be on the field. Because rose shoots a lot(though no more than many many many many many many people considered point guards). And Tebow runs a lot.

You could have said....Randall Cunningham. Or even Vick(not that it would be reasonable either).

The Tebow to Rose comparison as I said...makes it ovious you either dont know basketball or dont know football. Or a combo of one of the two plus just being out of your mind with hate.

The biggest Tebow supporter in the world wouldnt compare him to Derrick Rose and the biggest rose hater...who actually knows something about both sports...wouldnt compare him to Tebow either. And I say that as someone who recently posted this:


Tim Tebow could lead a blind man through a minefield with hand signals


But the comparison is to put it as simple as possible....****ing stupid.

Its a comparison between....some say the worst QB they ever saw starting...and who many say is the best of all time. And pretending it is analogous to the MVP of the NBA...a hall of fame level player...to...another HOF level player.

The difference between Tebow and Brady QB skills wise is closer to the PG skills difference between Chris Paul and like...Stephen Jackson...than it is to Rose/Paul.

Tebow is out there having games with 2 passes and 15-20 runs while Brady is passing 45-50 times for 500 yards. they could not possibly be more different or have a wider gap far as respect for their ability to play the game.

Comparing their difference to Rose and Paul is so out of line I almost deleted it on general principle.

[RazorBaLade]

Yeah show me a game where Tebow has more passing yards than Brady:facepalm

16 assists. 16. People need to stop acting like Rose doesn't get others involved.

lets give some credit to the bulls players for making shots off his passes. take a look at this

Rose has 16 assists with 14 shots and 11 fts. That is 16 plays for his teammate, and 25 plays for himself. Right? Cp3 however... 14 assists, 14 shots, 1 ft. 14 plays for teammates, 15 plays for himself.

I agree that Rose is a better basketball player. But we've all gotta agree on there being a clear difference between the type of ball that rose and cp3/rondo type players play. Thats all. Its arguable which one is better tho and I'll honestly take Blaze's word for it. But I don't think people quite acknowledge the difference, which is dumb.

[alenleomessi]

was that career high assists for rose?

[Kblaze8855]

No. It was not a career high.

And...14 shots and 11 FTs is 25 plays for himself?

Im gonna let you think about how fouls and FTs work and adjust your math a bit before I comment on that...

Oh and..rose shoots technical FTs. Which adds to his "selfish" ft total but is not actually a play.

Not that id expect much watching and evaluating a game from someone after finding that they present a 57% shooting 29 point 16 assist game on the road vs an elite opponent as somehow playing too selfishly due to...taking and making FTs.

I can only imagine what you think of a guy like Kevin Johnson who might take 15-20 fts and *gasp* still get 20 shots.

[Vienceslav]

was that career high assists for rose?
He had 17 last year , so close enough.

[Go Getter]

lets give some credit to the bulls players for making shots off his passes. take a look at this

Rose has 16 assists with 14 shots and 11 fts. That is 16 plays for his teammate, and 25 plays for himself. Right? Cp3 however... 14 assists, 14 shots, 1 ft. 14 plays for teammates, 15 plays for himself.

I agree that Rose is a better basketball player. But we've all gotta agree on there being a clear difference between the type of ball that rose and cp3/rondo type players play. Thats all. Its arguable which one is better tho and I'll honestly take Blaze's word for it. But I don't think people quite acknowledge the difference, which is dumb.


It's dumb to put all types of stupid stipulations behind things when the only thing that matters is the win.

D Rose put up better stats and helped his team to a win.

It doesn't matter if he scored 545 points with 0 assists. This isn't the rec league or a HS basketball game. It's the pros. Screw sharing the ball (if it's not working). If a team has to do all isos for their best player to win at this level then that's what you do.

You can get caught up on what you THINK basketball is all about and how you like the game played but it's all in your mind.

Real ballers know that it's about the win.

My point about Rose's 16 assists was that even in a win with high assist totals, superb fg%, and almost notching a triple double people will still take away from his game and do not acknowledge his skills as a PG.

Oh well.

[NBAller]

Um...Tim Tebow is considered by some people whos life is football skills evaluations....to be the worst starter in football and the 4th best QB on his team a couple months ago. Derrick Rose is an all star, MVP, all NBA player who is HOF bound if healthy. If you were going to compare him to a QB it could be done with dozens who arent considered the worst player at the positions. for example..a young superstar who runs along the lines of..Cam Newton. Or even...Steve Young or elway in their youth.

You however...compared the MVP of the NBA to a guy who experts cant even agree should be on the field. Because rose shoots a lot(though no more than many many many many many many people considered point guards). And Tebow runs a lot.

You could have said....Randall Cunningham. Or even Vick(not that it would be reasonable either).

The Tebow to Rose comparison as I said...makes it ovious you either dont know basketball or dont know football. Or a combo of one of the two plus just being out of your mind with hate.

The biggest Tebow supporter in the world wouldnt compare him to Derrick Rose and the biggest rose hater...who actually knows something about both sports...wouldnt compare him to Tebow either. And I say that as someone who recently posted this:




But the comparison is to put it as simple as possible....****ing stupid.

Its a comparison between....some say the worst QB they ever saw starting...and who many say is the best of all time. And pretending it is analogous to the MVP of the NBA...a hall of fame level player...to...another HOF level player.

The difference between Tebow and Brady QB skills wise is closer to the PG skills difference between Chris Paul and like...Stephen Jackson...than it is to Rose/Paul.

Tebow is out there having games with 2 passes and 15-20 runs while Brady is passing 45-50 times for 500 yards. they could not possibly be more different or have a wider gap far as respect for their ability to play the game.

Comparing their difference to Rose and Paul is so out of line I almost deleted it on general principle.

:lol well done kblaze. you killed me on my feet.

[RazorBaLade]

No. It was not a career high.

And...14 shots and 11 FTs is 25 plays for himself?

Im gonna let you think about how fouls and FTs work and adjust your math a bit before I comment on that...

Oh and..rose shoots technical FTs. Which adds to his "selfish" ft total but is not actually a play.

Not that id expect much watching and evaluating a game from someone after finding that they present a 57% shooting 29 point 16 assist game on the road vs an elite opponent as somehow playing too selfishly due to...taking and making FTs.

I can only imagine what you think of a guy like Kevin Johnson who might take 15-20 fts and *gasp* still get 20 shots.

Ya I forgot its 2fts so I guess assuming technicals +and1 plays ehh more like 20-22 plays is a safe bet. I mean the guy is not shooting 4 techs a night.

i didn't say it was selfish or wrong, which again is for some reason being hard to grasp... Its DIFFERENT. Rondo doesn't allow himself to attack that many times in a game, he's always working on getting others going. Thats just the difference right there for all to see. If you take 20 fts (aka, at the very least, you made an aggressive move 10 times for 16 fts then 2and1s and 2tecs) PLUS your 20 aggressive moves for a shot then you're PROBABLY not playing the same style of basketball that Steve Nash does.

historically , both have been on par in success youve said... So it doesn't matter much what you choose, but the difference is obvious.

[RazorBaLade]

It's dumb to put all types of stupid stipulations behind things when the only thing that matters is the win.

D Rose put up better stats and helped his team to a win.

It doesn't matter is he scored 545 points with 0 assists. This isn't the rec league or a HS basketball game. It's the pros. Screw sharing the ball (if it's not working). If a team has to do all isos for their best player to win at this level then that's what you do.

You can get caught up on what you THINK basketball is all about and how you like the game played but it's all in your mind.

Real ballers know that it's about the win.

My point about Rose's 16 assists was that even in a win with high assist totals, superb fg%, and almost notching a triple double people will still take away from his game and not acknowledge his skills as a PG.

Oh well.

Well its not like 1 game is going to make us all suddenly think he plays the same kind of basketball that Cp3 does. He did great tonight but is still who he is, and hes more of a scoring pg. Its not a knock on the guy, I don't get this problem. No one here seriously believes he plays the same way these other pgs do, so what the HELL are we still arguing about? I AGREE that hes a better basketball player so far this season.

[Bigsmoke]

If Kobe played at Center and went out and scored 25 and 5 would he be one of the best centers? This is a tough example not quite like Rose situation but my case is illustrated with this perfectly. Rose does NOT play the way Nash and CP3 and Deron do.
Stfu

[Go Getter]

Well its not like 1 game is going to make us all suddenly think he plays the same kind of basketball that Cp3 does. He did great tonight but is still who he is, and hes more of a scoring pg. Its not a knock on the guy, I don't get this problem. No one here seriously believes he plays the same way these other pgs do, so what the HELL are we still arguing about? I AGREE that hes a better basketball player so far this season.
Yet ppl still make the distinction between player and PG.

My point is that the coach makes that call. And since both players are listed as Pgs and Rose is better than CP3 right now he is the better player AND PG.

[RazorBaLade]

Stfu

^ this guy does not see the differences in playstyle towards the game of basketball between Nash and Rose.

:eek:

[RazorBaLade]

Yet ppl still make the distinction between player and PG.

My point is that the coach makes that call. And since both players are listed as Pgs and Rose is better than CP3 right now he is the better player AND PG.

I agree with everything you said here as well. In my "list" of Pgs I meant only PGs playing the kind of ball I personally think is more successful for a PG. ONLY assuming that playstyle. For other ways, I agree.

[gin17]

It's dumb to put all types of stupid stipulations behind things when the only thing that matters is the win.

D Rose put up better stats and helped his team to a win.

It doesn't matter is he scored 545 points with 0 assists. This isn't the rec league or a HS basketball game. It's the pros. Screw sharing the ball (if it's not working). If a team has to do all isos for their best player to win at this level then that's what you do.

You can get caught up on what you THINK basketball is all about and how you like the game played but it's all in your mind.

Real ballers know that it's about the win.

My point about Rose's 16 assists was that even in a win with high assist totals, superb fg%, and almost notching a triple double people will still take away from his game and not acknowledge his skills as a PG.

Oh well.
QFT. That's why clutch plays are most important, and oftentimes where superstars become superstars. It does not matter when such players posed 0pts 0asts 0other stats, as long as they make the right plays when they mattered the most. at the end of the day, the W is the most important stat. making all the right plays (even if most of those plays came from just hustle plays or other plays that does not get recorded in the stat sheets) and giving your team the win is better than having all the stats padded to almost unrealistic/video-game-like extremes but was making the wrong decisions which contributed to an L. And I believe that all players who really want to win an NBA championship, would say the same. (and that's why superstars and most if not all players in general would gladly substitute their MVP awards for a ring)

[Glide2keva]

What bothers me is people saying Rose is a bad shooter. One season he shot 45% and people were calling him inefficient, etc. Never mind the fact that his rookie year he shot 48%, second year 49% and this year he is shooting 48% and for his CAREER, he is shooting 47%.

Those are great numbers for a guard.

[Glide2keva]

was that career high assists for rose?
17. He set it last year twice I think.

[Pharcyde]

Didn't watch the game tonight guys so I'm kinda speaking all around.. I mean just one game wouldn't make him the best PG anyways so dwelling only on this is pointless.

but looking at the stats, I know I know, we have 14 shots from rose and then 11 fts. you dont see that stuff from cp3 or nash or deron, EVER. They ALWAYS pass more to their shitty players. this day may have been a bit of an exception as it looks like an UNBELIEVABLY good game by rose but overall..
Chris Paul averaged 16 shots and 7 free throw attempts in 2008.....

[Pharcyde]

as a player I think rose is better than all of them.. but from a pg standpoint, NIGHT IN AND NIGHT OUT.. id take those guys first..
I will never understand statements like these. I've only heard them in the past 2 years and only for the PG position. Would you ever say something like "Dirk is a better player but Pau is a better 4"? I don't get it. If Rose is a better player he's a better point guard, since that's the position he plays.

[Go Getter]

He still needs to tighten it up his handle/decision making. Those TO's can be problematic down the line.

But man, people don't understand, I was on the bandwagon since Englewood/Simeon. This has been a great ride so far.


Lmao at those fools that wanted Beasley because we needed a post scorer:roll:

[AirTupac]

He still needs to tighten it up his handle/decision making. Those TO's can be problematic down the line.

But man, people don't understand, I was on the bandwagon since Englewood/Simeon. This has been a great ride so far.


Lmao at those fools that wanted Beasley because we needed a post scorer:roll:

I remember when all my friends said Beasley was going to win ROY and be better than Rose. I was just like :rolleyes: :rolleyes: you'll see kids, you'll see.

[TheTruth11]

He still needs to tighten it up his handle/decision making. Those TO's can be problematic down the line.

But man, people don't understand, I was on the bandwagon since Englewood/Simeon. This has been a great ride so far.


Lmao at those fools that wanted Beasley because we needed a post scorer:roll:


You know your stuff Go but I have slight disagreement with you here. I agree about the handle. Seems to be a little loose so far this year -- maybe due to the lockout, and a bit uncharacteristic for him so I expect him to tighten that up in no time.

But his decision making is damn good and has gotten progressively better each year. Dude does nothing but win and elevate the players around him. He has been doing that at every level he has ever played at so.... can his decision making be better? Yes. But not by much. And you can say that about the decision making of every player in the game - always room for improvement. But Rose plays at a level right now (decision making and all) that is good enough to bring the Bulls a championship if the Bulls play defense like they did last year and if he gets a little more scoring from the players around him.

Best PG in the League, plain and simple.

[nathanjizzle]

razor is lucky jeff removed the option to neg people.

[beastee]

Don't Neglect the 8 boards either. In the 4th quarter his help defense was swarming and he was cleaning up on rebounds. While he does have some shotjacking games, he clearly controls games (esp. 4th quarters) like no one else in the league other than Lebron. Also, ask CP3 how his ankles and knees feel today, they were almost broken by crossovers.

[RazorBaLade]

razor is lucky jeff removed the option to neg people.

no im not. i dont care about rep. id rather you make a point and change my opinion (ala, No, Nash is EXACTLY the same type of player Rose is and give reasons as to why that is) than just hit some button to think you did something to me.


I will never understand statements like these. I've only heard them in the past 2 years and only for the PG position. Would you ever say something like "Dirk is a better player but Pau is a better 4"? I don't get it. If Rose is a better player he's a better point guard, since that's the position he plays.

Before last year a LOT of people actually said stuff like that. Something like Dirk is a great PF but hes not the kind of big man PF game that wins championships, give me KG, Pau gasol's style over Dirks skill. I heard that a lot last year and every year before that. And don't you agree yourself? Not every person plays the same way and lumping them all together is great and what I do usually, but SOMETIMES separate lists are OK too.


Chris Paul averaged 16 shots and 7 free throw attempts in 2008.....

it was just an example to show the point i try to make even if in this 1 game.. obviously in a large sample size like a full season (that my opinion really is based off of) rose shoots more than 14 shots and cp3 shoots more than 1 ft. It was just an example.

[swi7ch]

Chris Paul is since Nash's game declined.

[Snoop_Cat]

I will never understand statements like these. I've only heard them in the past 2 years and only for the PG position. Would you ever say something like "Dirk is a better player but Pau is a better 4"? I don't get it. If Rose is a better player he's a better point guard, since that's the position he plays.

I agree. Also, keep in mind that his Bulls team NEEDS Rose to be a scorer a lot of the time. With him being in attack mode, that draws extra attention to him and gives more flexibility for the rest of the team on offense.

[Glide2keva]

Again ROSE HASN"T EVEN ATTEMPTED 20 SHOTS AT ALL THIS SEASON!!!!!!!

Stop with this shot-jacking bullshit.

[RazorBaLade]

Again ROSE HASN"T EVEN ATTEMPTED 20 SHOTS AT ALL THIS SEASON!!!!!!!

Stop with this shot-jacking bullshit.

who in this thread has called him a shot jacker?

[Glide2keva]

Go look.

[Pharcyde]

Before last year a LOT of people actually said stuff like that.
No they didn't. People have argued Pau was a better player, but Dirk not being a power forward was never in question.

[Thechosen1]

Paul IS the better basketball player, Rose is the better athlete period

[Glide2keva]

Paul IS the better basketball player, Rose is the better athlete periodFunny cartoon.

[97 bulls]

He still needs to tighten it up his handle/decision making. Those TO's can be problematic down the line.

But man, people don't understand, I was on the bandwagon since Englewood/Simeon. This has been a great ride so far.


Lmao at those fools that wanted Beasley because we needed a post scorer:roll:
Sad cuz I was one of those fools to be honest. God I'm glad I wasn't the bulls gm during that draft.

[1rkrage]

Sad cuz I was one of those fools to be honest. God I'm glad I wasn't the bulls gm during that draft.

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0519/espnChi_rose_heat_576.jpg


:mad:

I'm glad GarPax seems to know what they're doing.

[97 bulls]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0519/espnChi_rose_heat_576.jpg


:mad:

I'm glad GarPax seems to know what they're doing.
I shake just thinking about it. I was dead set on the bulls drafting beasley.

[RazorBaLade]

No they didn't. People have argued Pau was a better player, but Dirk not being a power forward was never in question.

no one here is saying rose isnt a pg either. There were talks that Dirk wasn't a traditional PF, a TRUE pf. I'm saying exactly that, rose (career wise thus far, not one game) has not been a TRUE pg either, especially not to the degree that cp3 nash rondo etc are. Thats all. Dirk was definitely criticized for not being a "true" pf.

[beau_boy04]

Since 2008 Chris Paul has been a better distributor and has better court vision than Rose. Derrick Rose on the other hand, has been a better overall player as of late, and a better scorer as well.

[brantonli]

No, Kyle Lowry is! :rockon:

Dw, just coming from my Rockets-Hawks high :D

[ILLsmak]

Right now? No. Deron has been terrible to start the season.

True enough but it's a bad situation over there. If Lebron came out and had a bad stretch like Deron had would you guys be like OH I GUESS HE'S NOT GOOD ANYMORE.

Deron is still a stud. I prefer a real point guard, but the fact that Rose is doing it on a very high level... he's a Lebron type of player who you just throw shooters around at this point.

Passing skill is important, but if you change the defense with your presence then that makes your passes much easier. So you can get a ton of assists. That's why LeBron got a bunch in Cleveland. That's why Shaq was such a 'good passer' if you put Shaq in the skills challenge he would shit the bed. But because people were WIDE THE **** OPEN he could hit them with some decent passes.

So, it's hard for me... a huge Deron fan to say I'd rather have Deron at the PG than Rose at this point. No matter what prototype he is, Rose plays PG and he dominates.

-Smak

[Go Getter]

You know your stuff Go but I have slight disagreement with you here. I agree about the handle. Seems to be a little loose so far this year -- maybe due to the lockout, and a bit uncharacteristic for him so I expect him to tighten that up in no time.

But his decision making is damn good and has gotten progressively better each year. Dude does nothing but win and elevate the players around him. He has been doing that at every level he has ever played at so.... can his decision making be better? Yes. But not by much. And you can say that about the decision making of every player in the game - always room for improvement. But Rose plays at a level right now (decision making and all) that is good enough to bring the Bulls a championship if the Bulls play defense like they did last year and if he gets a little more scoring from the players around him.
Best PG in the League, plain and simple.
He's 23. He can still improve his decision making, anticipation, in game manipulation of refs and opponents if you will....much of which can only come with time.

With his responsibilities turnovers are a given but you can't deny he can and will add more polish to his game.

[Tenchi Ryu]

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2011/0519/espnChi_rose_heat_576.jpg


:mad:

I'm glad GarPax seems to know what they're doing.
IT BURNS!!!!!!!!

:rant :rant :rant :rant :rant :rant

[Go Getter]

Picking Beasely over Rose would have been a mistake of EPIC proportions. Maybe even enough to make me hang up my Bulls jerseys for good.


You just don't pass on a kid like D Rose when he's from your city (to boot).

[Pharcyde]

no one here is saying rose isnt a pg either.

Yeah there definitely is. I just did a quick google search and found both of these threads.
http://207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php?t=239389
http://207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php?t=244760

And in your earlier posts in this thread you were insinuating that he was a 2 and isn't a PG at all, then started using the "he's not a true PG" claim when you got called out.


There were talks that Dirk wasn't a traditional PF, a TRUE pf. No there wasn't, and he was never criticized by it. He was criticized for not being a strong rebounder or defensive player. It had nothing to do with people thinking he played out of position.


I'm saying exactly that, rose (career wise thus far, not one game) has not been a TRUE pg either, especially not to the degree that cp3 nash rondo etc are. Thats all.
The thing is there is no such thing as a "TRUE" point guard as Kblaze has pointed out to you in this thread many of times.

[The_Yearning]

I still remember his first game last season vs. OKC... took 34 shots that game. Reminded me of Iverson.

[DMV2]

He's been the best PG since last year, who cares if he's not your typical distributor first PG.

And people who says Paul or Deron Williams are the best PGs are basing it off reputation. Choke artist reputation didn't stop the Mavericks from winning a championship last season. Production and winning >>>> reputation, and Rose is producing and winning right now. And taking a borderline playoff/8th seed team to the ECF is winning in my opinion. Only goal now is to win the ultimate prize.

I'm a big D-Will fan but I don't mind saying Rose has been a better PG the past two seasons.

[Go Getter]

He's been the best PG since last year, who cares if he's not your typical distributor first PG.

And people who says Paul or Deron Williams are the best PGs are basing it off reputation. Choke artist reputation didn't stop the Mavericks from winning a championship last season. Production and winning >>>> reputation, and Rose is producing and winning right now. And taking a borderline playoff/8th seed team to the ECF is winning in my opinion. Only goal now is to win the ultimate prize.

I'm a big D-Will fan but I don't mind saying Rose has been a better PG the past two seasons.
I went to see his first game in Utah and is was amazing to watch him do the simple things.

He caught a ball near halfcourt on a broken play and threw the ball ahead and burnt down the court for a layup and the crowd was like:eek:

Coincidentally a few weeks after I was at the barber shop and Ronnie Price brought up the same play when talking about the fastest players in the league.

I'm pretty optimistic that with the way he's playing now that we will attract a nice young 2 guard sometime soon.

Man, if Brew keeps developing that 3 pointer....lemme stop and not jinx anything, lol.

[GOBB]

And people who says Paul or Deron Williams are the best PGs are basing it off reputation

Yes the reputation they are consistently great ball distributors, passers, defenders and can provide offense to boot. Who knew that would be a bad thing? Just because you're a fan of D-Will and feel Rose is the best PG doesnt make that statement any more valid than someone saying Rose is not the best PG over CP3/D-Will.

[chips93]

there are point guards in this league with much better court vision, and timing, and accuracy of passing, etc. but rose is still the best point guard, and for me its not very close. i used to have cp3, in the first half of last year, but hes become too passive. no pg puts as much pressure on your defense as rose. and his defense isnt bad either. his off-ball defense, and defensive awareness, arent very good, but if you want him to just lock his man down, he can do a pretty good job at that.

[DMV2]

Yes the reputation they are consistently great ball distributors, passers, defenders and can provide offense to boot. Who knew that would be a bad thing? Just because you're a fan of D-Will and feel Rose is the best PG doesnt make that statement any more valid than someone saying Rose is not the best PG over CP3/D-Will.
But we're not comparing what they've been doing the last 2 seasons, not career. Rose has been more production, and is a bigger winner than Paul and Deron since 2010 therefore the better PG right now.

[GOBB]

But we're not comparing what they've been doing the last 2 seasons, not career. Rose has been more production, and is a bigger winner than Paul and Deron since 2010 therefore the better PG right now.

All 3 players are winners. What makes Rose a bigger winner? Because you're purposely isolating 1 season (last year)? :confusedshrug:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

All 3 players are winners. What makes Rose a bigger winner? Because you're purposely isolating 1 season (last year)? :confusedshrug:

Rose has been more production!!!!!!111

(even though Paul has a higher player efficiency rating this year)

[upside24]

It's between CP3 and Rose obviously. CP3 is better imo but I can understand why others would pick Rose.

[step_back]

Rose was just better in the game against the Clippers. Nothing more nothing less. He made some great shots in the 4th quarter including 3's and didn't turn the ball over late in the game.

Although that being said Deng was the unsung hero that game. He quietly killed the Clippers all game.

[nathanjizzle]

Derrick Rose 6-0 against CP3.

[TheMan]

Derrick Rose 6-0 against CP3.
Actually it's 5-0, and Rose has had his way against CP3 when they've played H2H.

[pauk]

Right now i do also think D-Rose is the best PG... why the heck not

[Tenchi Ryu]

Right now i do also think D-Rose is the best PG... why the heck not
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Wait...is this the right username? :oldlol: