Hall of Famer? Part 1: Vince Carter

[RRR3]

This is the first part of a 10-part series I will be doing on players who are potential hall of famers, but are not certain to make it. Please tell me if you think these players should be in the hall of famers or not and why. The first player I am doing is Vince Carter. Each day I will do another player.

http://dumulo.com/data_images/vince-carter/vince-carter-01.jpg


[B]

[Clippersfan86]

Nope.

[RRR3]

Nope.
Please give me reasons why.

[Rnbizzle]

Let me put it this way, if he does make it, he wouldn't be the worst player in there.

[32Dayz]

He should make it.

Vince in the very early 00's and when he first joined the Nets was arguably as good as the Kobe and the TMac's.

His Career was filled with inconsistenty and at some point he lost that fire but his talent in undeniable.

He could drive to the rim with his amazing athleticism or shoot from anywhere on the court.

[Clippersfan86]

Please give me reasons why.

Because his entire career was a disappointment. Not all of it was his fault... some of it was injury but he didn't do enough. Be voted in like crazy to multiple consecutive all star games and being one of the most popular players in NBA history doesn't mean you deserve the hall of fame.

When I think of a HOF player I think of an integral piece on a championship team or at the very least a player who had great longevity. Players like Vince who had 4-5 great seasons and fell off mostly don't get in. For guards... the HOF ones accomplish more than Vince has normally. He's also not been an ambassador of the game like a Yao Ming so he's not getting in that way.

I guess I'm blurring the line of if I think he deserves it or if I think he will make it. I personally say he doesn't deserve it.... but he MAY make it, who knows. The only thing that leads me to think he has a decent shot is that only 10 players in NBA history that have scored 20,000 career points have not made the hall. 8 were because they are still active or ineligible (including Vince).

[Legends66NBA7]

Here's basketball reference's take on it:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=5184

I personally don't mind him going in, but it would be for different reasons.

[Clippersfan86]

Here's basketball reference's take on it:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=5184

I personally don't mind him going in, but it would be for different reasons.

Great read. Basically what I feel. HOF stats... but not HOF level winner or attitude.

[Rnbizzle]

Here's basketball reference's take on it:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=5184

I personally don't mind him going in, but it would be for different reasons.
Nice read, thanks for posting.

[RRR3]

Also, one thing to add: Vince's (relative) lack of All-NBA honors is due in large part to him having the misfortune to play at a time when there were multiple amazing guards around. TMac, Kobe, and Iverson dominated the first half of the decade, then it was Kobe and Wade the rest of the decade. Vince wasn't quite on any of those guys' level, but he was damn close a lot of the time.

[HylianNightmare]

he was never the best at his posiitoin and though he choked against the celtics on the magic. his best years never resulted in ring but he did have some great playoffs. dude put up some amazing numbers but he doesn't strike me as a HOFer.
but if he got in i wouldn't be surprised at all

[senelcoolidge]

Vince Carter in the Hall of Fame..you have to be joking. He's such a disappointing player. Big underachiever. You don't put guys in the Hall because they can dunk the ball good. He was a very good player that's all. He could have been better..maybe even great..he just didn't want it hard enough.

[32Dayz]

You don't put guys in the Hall because they can dunk the ball good.

:facepalm

Vince had all around game and a Jumper as deep as the Atlantic Ocean.

[Kevin_Gamble]

Let me put it this way, if he does make it, he wouldn't be the worst player in there.

You can't be serious? Alex English and Clyde Drexler are in that thing.

[Legends66NBA7]

You can't be serious? Alex English and Clyde Drexler are in that thing.

K.C. Jones says hi.

[Rake2204]

I would place him in the Hall of Fame.

[RRR3]

Just because Vince underachieved doesn't mean what he achieved wasn't very impressive. :no: Also, he was more than just a "dunker", the dude could shoot the lights out.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

He was a talented player that should have been a Hall of Famer but somehow isn't. Him and T-Mac were some of the best players in the league for about 5 minutes. Neither of them accomplished much of anything and they fizzled out early. All-World talent, D-League careers. Not Hall of Famers.

I won't be shocked if they get in but they aren't getting my vote.

[32Dayz]

He was a talented player that should have been a Hall of Famer but somehow isn't. Him and T-Mac were some of the best players in the league for about 5 minutes. Neither of them accomplished much of anything and they fizzled out early. All-World talent, D-League careers. Not Hall of Famers.

I won't be shocked if they get in but they aren't getting my vote.

What..?

Cmon dude you can legitimately make a Case for TMac being the best SG from 00-05 or the first half of the 00 Decade.
He had 4 or 5 years of 32/6/6 on 55+% TS in the playoffs.


Vince was great in 00 and 01 and then started to fizzle but to say he wasn't great those years is revisionist history.

I know your a Kobe fan so you'd prefer to just call the two dleague scrubs and close the book but that isn't the truth.

[Doranku]

If Chris Mullin is in the Hall of Fame, why shouldn't Vince make it? Dude brought more excitement to the NBA and was arguably the best dunker of all time. A dunk contest icon.

Put up some terrific numbers in his prime including a few 50 point playoff games iirc. Like someone else said, he certainly wouldn't be the worst player in the Hall if he were to make it.

[Legends66NBA7]

Just because Vince underachieved doesn't mean what he achieved wasn't very impressive. :no: Also, he was more than just a "dunker", the dude could shoot the lights out.

Seeing him in Toronto, the man could go hot like no other and he would do it without shooting a lot of free throws. Check out his last 40+ point game when he was past his prime with the Magic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09rFYq_5XQQ

Check out some of his more potent high scoring games:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apa6DXHeBrA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHUOSc8p-V4


As well the Web Master himself on Vince and commentating about the 2 games mentioned above, as well as Vince's ability to get hot and stay hot (no much help from free throws):


Vince was visually impressive. Not just dunks either. His shot making was sometimes off the charts. That 2001 Philly series Vince had 2 games (Game 3 and Game 6) where he combined for 90 (89) points...4 of the 90 were free throws. Dude just zoned out and went hard.

Vince was out there knocking down 28 footers with hands in his face, blowing by someone the next play and banging on whoever, driving and going up and under palming the ball the whole way flipping it in before he came down, hitting one handed foul line floaters, posting up and dropping in fadeaways, hitting guys with that mean huge step crossover he would pull out now and then(like this:

http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn45/kblaze888555/VCcross.gif )


Vince would leave you shaking your head with the variety of ways he would put the ball in the basket.

Just minor corrections I made on the bold, but nonetheless, props again to Kblaze.

[RRR3]

Seeing him in Toronto, the man could go hot like no other and he would do it without shooting a lot of free throws. Check out his last 40+ point game when he was past his prime with the Magic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09rFYq_5XQQ

Check out some of his more potent high scoring games:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apa6DXHeBrA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHUOSc8p-V4


As well the Web Master himself on Vince and commentating about the 2 games mentioned above, as well as Vince's ability to get hot and stay hot:



Just minor corrections I made on the bold, but nonetheless, props again to Kblaze.
Great contributions. Thanks! :applause: :applause:

[Legends66NBA7]

Great contributions. Thanks! :applause: :applause:

One can only imagine what Vince's career, as well as the fortunes of the Raptors, would have been if your boy (Vince’s cousin) had remained with us:

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9dq3mrO8P1qcjcu1o1_500.jpg

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lmel7nkMlW1qe0uldo1_r2_400.gif

[RRR3]

[QUOTE=Legends66NBA7]One can only imagine what Vince's career, as well as the fortunes of the Raptors, would have been if your boy (Vince

[DMV2]

He's definitely a HOFer, maybe even 1st ballot. I looked up the draft classes from 1998-2002, and Carter is third best player during those 5-year draft stretch. Only Dirk and Pierce were better. Maybe you could make a case for Pau being better since joining the Lakers.

He has the stats to match up some of the HOFers and he made an impact as the greatest dunker ever.

[HylianNightmare]

there are a ton of guards that could be made a case for from the 90's to now

[Cali Syndicate]

If Chris Mullin is in the Hall of Fame, why shouldn't Vince make it? Dude brought more excitement to the NBA and was arguably the best dunker of all time. A dunk contest icon.

Put up some terrific numbers in his prime including a few 50 point playoff games iirc. Like someone else said, he certainly wouldn't be the worst player in the Hall if he were to make it.

Chris Mullin had a really good NBA career along with an excellent college career and has 2 gold medals. Easily a HOF player.

[Heavincent]

You don't put guys in the Hall because they can dunk the ball good.

I guess you never watched VC. He could do a lot more than that. He had a very polished offensive game.

[Harison]

If his career ends now, its 50:50 if he makes it (maybe 60:40). He definitely had the talent of HoF, just havent reached his full potential due to many reasons (crap teams for most of his career, work ethics, injuries, etc).

However he isnt done yet. He might get into good team and redeem himself. One great post-season hurrah, and no one would question if he belongs in the HoF.

[rodman91]

I think he deserves it.

22.2 ppg 5.2 rpg 4.0 apg in 13 years.

8 allstars, gold medalist.More than 20000 points.Probably best dunker of all time.All time fan favorite.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He's not a lock, but as others have said, he wouldn't be the worst player in there by any stretch.

At his peak, he was probably a top 6 player in the NBA(2001) and top 10-15 range 4-5 other seasons('00, '05, '06, '07 and maybe '02). The accomplishments and lack of team success are a problem and he didn't have the overwhelming prime to make up for it, but then again, his prime was spent on teams that really weren't good such as his Toronto teams and on the Nets, he had a good, but declining Kidd and an often-injured RJ with no big men.

So he wasn't in situations where he was going to win titles, but the lack of effort at certain points in his career, the questionable shot selection and complete lack of defense don't help.

I think that he's a guy who people shouldn't complain about getting in or not getting in. I could go through a list of players who were regarded as being in the same tier as Carter when they played, had little success outside of individual numbers and sometimes brought quite a few negatives with them, yet they got in.

[RRR3]

He's not a lock, but as others have said, he wouldn't be the worst player in there by any stretch.

At his peak, he was probably a top 6 player in the NBA(2001) and top 10-15 range 4-5 other seasons('00, '05, '06, '07 and maybe '02). The accomplishments and lack of team success are a problem and he didn't have the overwhelming prime to make up for it, but then again, his prime was spent on teams that really weren't good such as his Toronto teams and on the Nets, he had a good, but declining Kidd and an often-injured RJ with no big men.

So he wasn't in situations where he was going to win titles, but the lack of effort at certain points in his career, the questionable shot selection and complete lack of defense don't help.

I think that he's a guy who people shouldn't complain about getting in or not getting in. I could go through a list of players who were regarded as being in the same tier as Carter when they played, had little success outside of individual numbers and sometimes brought quite a few negatives with them, yet they got in.

Good post. :applause: It's hard to predict how forgiving (in terms of lack of team success, laziness, etc.) the HOF voters will be for VC. Are there any players who had similar situations who got in?

[Burgz]

the most disappointing thing about vince was his unwillingness to compete on a regular basis

he consistently had his best games in nationally televised games, and after 2002 he would often coast through games and not even attempt a shot in the paint save one or two alleyoops or breakaway dunks

only when he was challenged did he attack the basket relentlessly, and considering the physical tools he was gifted with, he shouldv'e peaked a lot higher than 27 ppg

teammates often complained that he did not work very hard in the weight room or in practice as well, i know Oak and Antonio Davis were very outspoken about that

that being said, even though he is the reason I'm a diehard raptors fan, I don't believe he has done enough in his career to warrant the highest award that the sport can give out

[Legends66NBA7]

The accomplishments and lack of team success are a problem and he didn't have the overwhelming prime to make up for it, but then again, his prime was spent on teams that really weren't good such as his Toronto teams and on the Nets, he had a good, but declining Kidd and an often-injured RJ with no big men.

So he wasn't in situations where he was going to win titles, but the lack of effort at certain points in his career, the questionable shot selection and complete lack of defense don't help.

You bring up excellent points Shaqattack.

I believe if Vince had a more dominating big man earlier on in his career, which would have probably took some pressure off him and could have made him a more adequate defender.

Look at the situation in Boston when Kevin Garnett joined up with two great scorers in Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. That team instantly clicked together and started winning and eventually got a title out of it that same year. No reason to believe a prime Carter teaming up with a Garnett or Duncan, or even Shaq for that matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ieYBMcT26E

And that was Vince in 2007. By the time Vince got to Orlando, he wasn't in his prime anymore and couldn't contribute what he could because of a new system and new role.

One time, former Raptors coach Kevin O'Neil said that because of his athletic ability, he could have led the league in steals, perhaps even multiple times if his mind was in it. He certinaly proved that earlier on he could be a good help defender.

A lot of what if's, yes, but as you alluded to the teams he was on never had the right compliment outside of a good/declining Jason Kidd, who makes a living making you a better player offensively but not defensively.

[Burgz]

You bring up excellent points Shaqattack.

I believe if Vince had a more dominating big man earlier on in his career, which would have probably took some pressure off him and could have made him a more adequate defender.

Look at the situation in Boston when Kevin Garnett joined up with two great scorers in Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. That team instantly clicked together and started winning and eventually got a title out of it that same year. No reason to believe a prime Carter teaming up with a Garnett or Duncan, or even Shaq for that matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ieYBMcT26E

And that was Vince in 2007. By the time Vince got to Orlando, he wasn't in his prime anymore and couldn't contribute what he could because of a new system and new role.

One time, former Raptors coach Kevin O'Neil said that because of his athletic ability, he could have led the league in steals, perhaps even multiple times if his mind was in it. He certinaly proved that earlier on he could be a good help defender.

A lot of what if's, yes, but as you alluded to the teams he was on never had the right compliment outside of a good/declining Jason Kidd, who makes a living making you a better player offensively but not defensively.

Kevin O'Neil might have said it, but he honestly had no say when he was the coach in Toronto

the only coach that was upfront and honest with Vince about his defense was Butch Carter and he got fired because of that whole camby thing :facepalm


with vince the face of the franchise, people walked on eggshells around him partly because he was a star, but also because of the market he player in. losing vince during the 2000 - 2003 period would have been catastrophic for the raptors, and it bred a culture with the team that made whatever vince do excusable

off the court vince is one of the greats and I honestly used to detest him, but because of his work off the court I generally hope all the best for him, he is truly a class act.

[Legends66NBA7]

Kevin O'Neil might have said it, but he honestly had no say when he was the coach in Toronto

the only coach that was upfront and honest with Vince about his defense was Butch Carter and he got fired because of that whole camby thing :facepalm


with vince the face of the franchise, people walked on eggshells around him partly because he was a star, but also because of the market he player in. losing vince during the 2000 - 2003 period would have been catastrophic for the raptors, and it bred a culture with the team that made whatever vince do excusable

off the court vince is one of the greats and I honestly used to detest him, but because of his work off the court I generally hope all the best for him, he is truly a class act.

I hear you man. O'Neil really never was going to fit in long term with the problems that was going on behind scenes.

I also know Charles Oakley left town for similar reasons. He was another who pushed Vince's buttons and made him go. It's a shame because they gave Vince a lot of veterans around him and I thought that would at least take his work ethic to the next level.

Agreed on everything else. I can't really say I detest him, because when I used to have favourites, he was my #1 fav back in the day, then the whole trade thing happened and all that non-sense came up front.

I think it was a lose-lose because the management incompetence was never going to be able surround Vince with the right talent and chemistry. The trade for Davis, JYD for shoot first volume scorers like Rose and Marshall was short sighted. Followed by one of the worst draft picks ever in Rafael "The GOAT" Aruajo.

It just never was going to be when you mix all that up...

[G-train]

Tough one.
I'd say yes.
Normally I would say not enough team accomplishment. But he was drafted to the Raptors.

[Legends66NBA7]

Tough one.
I'd say yes.
Normally I would say not enough team accomplishment. But he was drafted to the Raptors.

He was actually drafted by the Warriors.

His rights got traded to Toronto in exchange for Antawn Jamison, who the Raptors drafted that year.

[Burgz]

I hear you man. O'Neil really never was going to fit in long term with the problems that was going on behind scenes.

I also know Charles Oakley left town for similar reasons. He was another who pushed Vince's buttons and made him go. It's a shame because they gave Vince a lot of veterans around him and I thought that would at least take his work ethic to the next level.

Agreed on everything else. I can't really say I detest him, because when I used to have favourites, he was my #1 fav back in the day, then the whole trade thing happened and all that non-sense came up front.

I think it was a lose-lose because the management incompetence was never going to be able surround Vince with the right talent and chemistry. The trade for Davis, JYD for shoot first volume scorers like Rose and Marshall was short sighted. Followed by one of the worst draft picks ever in Rafael "The GOAT" Aruajo.

It just never was going to be when you mix all that up...

dont even get me started on the management

Raptors are in the NBA to make money, not to win. We've had the same problem for a decade, and yet we never make an effort to address it: we are TRASH on defense:banghead:

Maple Leaf Sports Entertainment know how to run a business though and the Raptors, despite having one of the worst products on the court, still make a lot of money and pleasing Vince was the way they did that early on.

Rob Babcock? I hope he never gets another front-office position in the league

we could have had Bosh/VC/Iggy :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[G-train]

He was actually drafted by the Warriors.

His rights got traded to Toronto in exchange for Antawn Jamison, who the Raptors drafted that year.

GTFO

Such details were irrelevant to my post.
I watched that draft so I was aware of that.
He was drafted by the Warriors for the Raptors.

So once again GTFO.

[hammer2010]

What a shame how his career turned out.

Vince was an incredible talent with unbelievable skills, he had it all. Ridiculous athleticism, great size and length, great strength, great first step, great handles, great shot, very good footwork, good passer, strong finisher, good in the post. He had all the physical tools to be GOAT. He just seemed like the perfectly built basketball player but dude just had no heart or desire. I think he was good enough on talent and skill alone to get in.

[iDunk]

If he gets to the Conference Finals again and manages to retire with 25,000 points 5,000 rebounds and 4,000 assists then he should be in.

VC is probably going to stay in the league for 4 more years. So he needs to assemble 4,480 points , 189 rebounds, and 303 assists in those 4 years. That's an average of 1,120 points, 47 rebounds, and 76 assists per season. Do I think he can do that? Yes, he'll finish just at 25,000 in points, get to around 5100 rebounds, and say around 4150 assists for his career. This guy is a sure fire hall of famer. Much bigger case than Grant Hill and T-Mac.

[v1ncelis]

Don't forget that he lead 00 USA Team to gold medals in Sydney Olympic games.

[L.Kizzle]

He should make it. But just on active players alone, he's at the bottom of a list that includes Duncan, Kobe, KG, Dirk, Kidd, Bron, Nash, Wade, Mac, Allen, Pierce and Hill.

[HylianNightmare]

He should make it. But just on active players alone, he's at the bottom of a list that includes Duncan, Kobe, KG, Dirk, Kidd, Bron, Nash, Wade, Mac, Allen, Pierce and Hill.


who?

[L.Kizzle]

who?
Bernie Mac, who u think.

[Solid Snake]

who?

Come on, think, obviously Bernie Mac.

[HylianNightmare]

ah ok

[G-train]

He should make it. But just on active players alone, he's at the bottom of a list that includes Duncan, Kobe, KG, Dirk, Kidd, Bron, Nash, Wade, Mac, Allen, Pierce and Hill.

Vince > Hill.

NC > Duke

My dad > your dad

next.

[josh99]

I'd give it to him, great player and probably the greatest dunker ever.

[Legends66NBA7]

GTFO

Such details were irrelevant to my post.
I watched that draft so I was aware of that.
He was drafted by the Warriors for the Raptors.

So once again GTFO.

I should have elaborated on that he did play for the Raptors. It wouldn't have made much of a difference if he played for the Warriors either though because they weren't some long-time winning franchise either.

No need to get so offended man; I wasn't trying to say you were stupid in saying that, you may just used the wrong word and I admit I should have explained it better. Calm down.

[Legends66NBA7]

dont even get me started on the management

Raptors are in the NBA to make money, not to win. We've had the same problem for a decade, and yet we never make an effort to address it: we are TRASH on defense:banghead:

Maple Leaf Sports Entertainment know how to run a business though and the Raptors, despite having one of the worst products on the court, still make a lot of money and pleasing Vince was the way they did that early on.

Rob Babcock? I hope he never gets another front-office position in the league

we could have had Bosh/VC/Iggy :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

+1.

Everybody rep this post. (Rep Burgz, not me.) 100% Fact.

[SevereUpInHere]

I don't know if he deserves to be in the hall, but this picture should be next to the entry as people walk in.

http://wannadunk.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Vince-Carter-Olympics-Dunk.jpg

[The Iron Fist]

Just because Vince underachieved doesn't mean what he achieved wasn't very impressive. :no: Also, he was more than just a "dunker", the dude could shoot the lights out.
Is this the same VC with the .445 fg%?

[The Iron Fist]

What..?

Cmon dude you can legitimately make a Case for TMac being the best SG from 00-05 or the first half of the 00 Decade.
He had 4 or 5 years of 32/6/6 on 55+% TS in the playoffs.


Vince was great in 00 and 01 and then started to fizzle but to say he wasn't great those years is revisionist history.

I know your a Kobe fan so you'd prefer to just call the two dleague scrubs and close the book but that isn't the truth.
:roll:

[v1ncelis]

Is this the same VC with the .445 fg%?
Says who? Isn't your boy Kobe shooting .454 fg%?

[senelcoolidge]

Just because Vince underachieved doesn't mean what he achieved wasn't very impressive. :no: Also, he was more than just a "dunker", the dude could shoot the lights out.

I know he was not just a dunker. He had great range, but he was a guy that had the ability to be a great player..but he didn't have the drive for it. So he was just a very good player. There have been lots of very good and excellent players that are not Hall worthy. He's one of them.

[Rolando]

GOAT Dunker. Probably should be in the Hall.

[D-Wade316]

No.

Vince's peak doesn't even come anywhere near close to that of Wade, Lebron, Kobe, and T-Mac. Bad work ethic. Disappointing career. Cancer to his team.

[JMT]

he wouldn't be the worst player in there by any stretch.


That's about as glowing an endorsement as I could give his candidacy.

And even that makes me throw up in my mouth a little.

[Noob Saibot]

VC would get my vote for the Hall of Fame. One of the greatest dunkers ever and a 20,000 point scorer. Only about 40 players have done that. Exclusive club right there.

[JMT]

VC would get my vote for the Hall of Fame. One of the greatest dunkers ever and a 20,000 point scorer. Only about 40 players have done that. Exclusive club right there.


34 players. Tom Chambers is one of them, along with Mitch Richmond and Adrian Dantley. Really great scorers, but HOF?

[Burgz]

+1.

Everybody rep this post. (Rep Burgz, not me.) 100% Fact.

thanks bruh but no need

been on this site since '06, never once cared about my rep points

:cheers:

[Noob Saibot]

34 players. Tom Chambers is one of them, along with Mitch Richmond and Adrian Dantley. Really great scorers, but HOF?

http://www.sportscity.com/nba/nba-all-time-scoring-leaders-38387/

this website says 37. I tyring to see how many are in the hall of fame.

I know Mitch Richmond and Tom Chambers are not the hall of fame, but i'm trying to see who else.

[JMT]

http://www.sportscity.com/nba/nba-all-time-scoring-leaders-38387/

this website says 37. I tyring to see how many are in the hall of fame.

I know Mitch Richmond and Tom Chambers are not the hall of fame, but i'm trying to see who else.

You're right. Carter, Pierce and Duncan entered this past season, bumping it from 34 to 37.

Pretty sure Chambers and Richmond are the only 2. Dantley is in.

[Noob Saibot]

You're right. Carter, Pierce and Duncan entered this past season, bumping it from 34 to 37.

Pretty sure Chambers and Richmond are the only 2. Dantley is in.

from that website Vince Carter has already passed Tom Chambers and Mitch Richmond, plus Vince did it at a faster pace.

About 27 on that list are in the hall of fame. Reggie Miller is not in the hall of fame, and neither is Shaq (but he recently retired this year). Chambers and Richmond have retired but not in the hall yet. Kobe, KG, Duncan, Iverson(?), Pierce, Ray Allen, Dirk, and Vince are still active players.

[bizil]

I think Vince has done enough to get in the Hall. He has over 20,000 points, was regarded as a top 10 type player for several years, and he revolutionized athleticism in the NBA. For those ultra athletic SG or SF players who were the kings in the air and changed flying u got Baylor, Hawkins, Doc, Thompson, Nique, Jordan, and Vince. I think these seven are the most important and influential aerialists of all time. So if anything, Vince gets a boost many guys don't get. Cause he redefined the game in a very important way. And frankly in the main way u tend to get casual fans. And thats through exciting and amazing athletic feats that anybody can get into. Even a guy like Bird was an exciting player due to his stylish passing and amazing shot making ability and range. Vince just happened to more along the lines of MJ and Nique and thrilled us in the air. I think Vince gets in on the 1st or second ballot.

[JMT]

from that website Vince Carter has already passed Tom Chambers and Mitch Richmond, plus Vince did it at a faster pace.

About 27 on that list are in the hall of fame. Reggie Miller is not in the hall of fame, and neither is Shaq (but he recently retired this year). Chambers and Richmond have retired but not in the hall yet. Kobe, KG, Duncan, Iverson(?), Pierce, Ray Allen, Dirk, and Vince are still active players.

Was only looking at those eligible for the Hall.

[bizil]

34 players. Tom Chambers is one of them, along with Mitch Richmond and Adrian Dantley. Really great scorers, but HOF?

Dantley is already in. Dantey was so prolific that he had to be in. And yes Dantley was HOF caliber. Chambers and Mitch weren't as prolific, even though they were tremendous scorers. But I don't think Chambers or Mitch will make the Hall. Cause their impact wasn't HOF level. They are borderline HOF material and I would love to see them in though.

Vince on the other hand had a tremendous impact on the L on a global scale. Whenever u have mass appeal and redefine something in addition to having over 20,000 points, it gives u an edge on other 20,000 point scorers like Mitch or Tom C. Vince is also an underrated all around player as well. And it's true during the early 2000s that Vince wasn't far off at all from Kobe and T Mac in terms of taking over a game and doing Batman shit. But the difference was Kobe and Mac were great all around players with it. While Vince was a very good all around player, kinda like how Ray Allen and Paul Pierce were around that time. Guys like Kobe, Mac, Vince, Pierce, AI, and Ray were SG's I feel u could build a team around and true Batman players. Vince shined bright in the golden era for SG's. And in terms of mass appeal, only AI was on a higher level amongst those SG's. Vince was just as big a deal as Kobe in terms of mass appeal back then. And hell might have had an edge cause it seemed EVERYBODY liked Vince as a person. Kobe had many people out there who didn't like him.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

I think you are over estimating Vince Carter impact on the league. The dude made some insane dunks. The dude scored a lot of points. He was a talented exciting player but he didn't accomplish much where it counts (MVPs, playoff wins, championships). That's where legacys are built.

Vince Carter has a reputation as a cancer that doesn't try hard all the time. His resume is light. His peak was way short and the dude's teams did jack in the playoffs. That is recipe for a bad legacy. Will it keep him out of the hall, I don't know but the evidence on him is pretty damning.

I'm not trying to shit on the guy and I'm not saying it's fair but this is the reality of sports. 20 years from now people are going to be talking about King Kobe and Vince is gonna be a footnote. Just like today people talk about Jordan like a God and it's like Dominique who? And Dominique Wilkins was an amazing player. I'm just sayin'.

[Clippersfan86]

Here's the problem guys. Vince Carter's time in Toronto isn't the knock on his success. It's his time with NJ and Orlando... and even Phoenix. At 33 he was way too young to be "done" this year.

Here's an example of what kind of a low impact Carter has on teams generally and BTW... Vince Carter was my favorite player for a long time so It takes more for me to be this honest. Vince Carter has the best year of his career first season with Nets and posts 27.5 ppg, 6 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.5 spg on 46 percent shooting from field, 42 percent from deep.... yet NJ drops 5 wins. Not only that but they drop one ranking on offense and 4 rankings on defense. They barely made the playoffs in the east with 42 wins as the 8th seed.

It's not like he didn't have help either. They had 6 players average 10+ ppg. Richard Jefferson put up 22.2 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 4 apg, 1 spg (people forget how good he was) and Kidd put up 14.5 ppg, 8.3 apg, 7.5 rpg and 2 spg. That being said all 3 of them missed a good amount of games due to injury but even the previous Nets teams with K-Mart and Kidd were very injury prone as well.

Then you look at Orlando. Carter was supposed to be Dwight's number two guy to replace Hedo and it was considered by 99 percent of people to be a big upgrade. Turns out he was a downgrade to Hedo in terms of all around impact on team and chemistry. They end up getting Hedo back and trading Vince to Phoenix!

Then at only 33 years old he makes pretty much 0 impact in Phoenix and throws in the towel. He could easily be a 20 ppg for another season or two if he had the right mindset and attitude. Reality is he is a HOF TALENT and has HOF stats... but he didn't have HOF SUCCESS or HOF ATTITUDE. He may get in.... but people need to remember what the HOF represents.

[L.Kizzle]

Here's the problem guys. Vince Carter's time in Toronto isn't the knock on his success. It's his time with NJ and Orlando... and even Phoenix. At 33 he was way too young to be "done" this year.

Here's an example of what kind of a low impact Carter has on teams generally and BTW... Vince Carter was my favorite player for a long time so It takes more for me to be this honest. Vince Carter has the best year of his career first season with Nets and posts 27.5 ppg, 6 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.5 spg on 46 percent shooting from field, 42 percent from deep.... yet NJ drops 5 wins. Not only that but they drop one ranking on offense and 4 rankings on defense. They barely made the playoffs in the east with 42 wins as the 8th seed.

It's not like he didn't have help either. They had 6 players average 10+ ppg. Richard Jefferson put up 22.2 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 4 apg, 1 spg (people forget how good he was) and Kidd put up 14.5 ppg, 8.3 apg, 7.5 rpg and 2 spg. That being said all 3 of them missed a good amount of games due to injury but even the previous Nets teams with K-Mart and Kidd were very injury prone as well.

Then you look at Orlando. Carter was supposed to be Dwight's number two guy to replace Hedo and it was considered by 99 percent of people to be a big upgrade. Turns out he was a downgrade to Hedo in terms of all around impact on team and chemistry. They end up getting Hedo back and trading Vince to Phoenix!

Then at only 33 years old he makes pretty much 0 impact in Phoenix and throws in the towel. He could easily be a 20 ppg for another season or two if he had the right mindset and attitude. Reality is he is a HOF TALENT and has HOF stats... but he didn't have HOF SUCCESS or HOF ATTITUDE. He may get in.... but people need to remember what the HOF represents.
Have you ever read up on Walt Bellamy, it's pretty bad what some of his peers though about him. And he's in the Hall, (took him a while though.)

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212351

[Clippersfan86]

Have you ever read up on Walt Bellamy, it's pretty bad what some of his peers though about him. And he's in the Hall, (took him a while though.)

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=212351

Vince has a shot. Just saying everybody in the hall I can think of had team success, even if they were carried. Mitch Richmond isn't in the hall because he was stuck on bad teams his entire career and didn't have any team success. Mitch has career stats that aren't too far behind Vince. So it can go both ways.

[rodman91]

I think Vince's best years were when he was Toronto by the way.His stats might say Nets but he was more competitive player in early years.

Raptors before Carter
16-66
Rookie Carter
23-27
2nd year
45-37
3rd year
45-37

[Burgz]

I think Vince's best years were when he was Toronto by the way.His stats might say Nets but he was more competitive player in early years.

Raptors before Carter
16-66
Rookie Carter
23-27
2nd year
45-37
3rd year
45-37

man was that a rough year

[Rake2204]

I've always been a fan of Vince Carter, so I'm not posting this as a form of derision. But I was reading through an old SLAM and found this line about Vince (from April '00). I found it humorous on a couple of different fronts:


"Many non-fictional myths will be told before it - this short and almost mythical career of Vince Carter - is over. Before the retirement, before the two or three championship rings, before the statue outside of the Air Canada Centre, before Gerald Wallace is handed his legacy. Vince Carter, Zeus like. Where lies have to be believed, where second-year All-Stars becomes legends, where slapping backboards means more than just two points." - Scoop Jackson

[swi7ch]

Sucks because he's the greatest dunker of all time but that won't be enough for HoF.

:(

[D.J.]

First ballot HOF'er. He's the reason basketball boomed in Canada. He put up HOF calibur numbers for 10 straight seasons. And for those who think he was just a dunker...he shot over 40% from downtown 4 times and over 37% for his career. And that doesn't include his post game and his shot blocking ability in his younger days.

[BIG FURB]

Here's the problem guys. Vince Carter's time in Toronto isn't the knock on his success. It's his time with NJ and Orlando... and even Phoenix. At 33 he was way too young to be "done" this year.

Here's an example of what kind of a low impact Carter has on teams generally and BTW... Vince Carter was my favorite player for a long time so It takes more for me to be this honest. Vince Carter has the best year of his career first season with Nets and posts 27.5 ppg, 6 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.5 spg on 46 percent shooting from field, 42 percent from deep.... yet NJ drops 5 wins. Not only that but they drop one ranking on offense and 4 rankings on defense. They barely made the playoffs in the east with 42 wins as the 8th seed.

It's not like he didn't have help either. They had 6 players average 10+ ppg. Richard Jefferson put up 22.2 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 4 apg, 1 spg (people forget how good he was) and Kidd put up 14.5 ppg, 8.3 apg, 7.5 rpg and 2 spg. That being said all 3 of them missed a good amount of games due to injury but even the previous Nets teams with K-Mart and Kidd were very injury prone as well.

Then you look at Orlando. Carter was supposed to be Dwight's number two guy to replace Hedo and it was considered by 99 percent of people to be a big upgrade. Turns out he was a downgrade to Hedo in terms of all around impact on team and chemistry. They end up getting Hedo back and trading Vince to Phoenix!

Then at only 33 years old he makes pretty much 0 impact in Phoenix and throws in the towel. He could easily be a 20 ppg for another season or two if he had the right mindset and attitude. Reality is he is a HOF TALENT and has HOF stats... but he didn't have HOF SUCCESS or HOF ATTITUDE. He may get in.... but people need to remember what the HOF represents.

There's a lot of revisionist history here. When vince was traded to the nets they were well out of the playoff race, k-mart was no longer there and Jefferson was injured for most of the season (didn't come back until the playoffs i believe). They then went on a tear the 2nd half of the season, with him and kidd doing most of the heavy lifting by themselves, and got the team back into the playoffs. They also went on to dominate their division the next few years without any sort of halfway decent frontline, losing in the playoffs to Shaq & D-wade's heat and lebron's cavs (no shame in that)

And in Orlando, when vince got there they won 59 games (as much as the season prior and the 2nd best record in the league) and swept their way to the ECF where they eventually lost to a fully healthy Celtics squad. Remember the year prior, although they got to the finals, they needed 7 games to get past a Celtics squad without KG on it. The next season when they traded vince and got Hedo back they ended up losing in the 1st rd to the same Hawks team they had swept the year before when vince was there

You're right about his lack of impact in Phoenix, but that team was done anyway without Amare. There was no way on old VC was gonna turn them around

[MaxaMillion711]

I normally do not post on message boards, but being a devoted fan of VC since 2000, I wanted to share some of my thoughts (biased of course)

HOF eligibility I feel is not only about rings and only about stats. It's about impact on the game of basketball. Speaking personally, VC single handedly got me interested in basketball. Seeing him in 1999 and 2000 got me hooked. Of course the dunks were a big part of that, but his 51 point performance vs the Suns on NBC was my first time watching him play a full game. I've seen pretty much every game of his ever since. And when I think of the 2000-2010 era of basketball, VC has his fingerprints all over it. His jersey, his face, his commercials, his highlights .... he made a significant impact on that decade of basketball. Not to mention winning the gold medal in 2000 ... a lot of people seem to forget/not care about that I've found.

Of course he did not live up to his potential. He has Kobe and Wade talent, but he is nowhere near their level. He is a second tier "superstar". He can win you a playoff series, he can have some big games, but he is not at the level of the other legends in the HOF. But there is a place in the HOF for a talent like VC.

Like I said, I'm biased and I want him to get in. I owe everything basketball related to him and his contributions to the game. It may not be enough of a contribution as he "should have" made, but I feel it is enough to get him in eventually.

If anyone is bored and wants to relive his greatest games, please check out this channel that I run: http://www.youtube.com/vc15encyclopedia

Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts :cheers:

[Rake2204]

I normally do not post on message boards, but being a devoted fan of VC since 2000, I wanted to share some of my thoughts (biased of course)

HOF eligibility I feel is not only about rings and only about stats. It's about impact on the game of basketball. Speaking personally, VC single handedly got me interested in basketball. Seeing him in 1999 and 2000 got me hooked. Of course the dunks were a big part of that, but his 51 point performance vs the Suns on NBC was my first time watching him play a full game. I've seen pretty much every game of his ever since. And when I think of the 2000-2010 era of basketball, VC has his fingerprints all over it. His jersey, his face, his commercials, his highlights .... he made a significant impact on that decade of basketball. Not to mention winning the gold medal in 2000 ... a lot of people seem to forget/not care about that I've found.

Of course he did not live up to his potential. He has Kobe and Wade talent, but he is nowhere near their level. He is a second tier "superstar". He can win you a playoff series, he can have some big games, but he is not at the level of the other legends in the HOF. But there is a place in the HOF for a talent like VC.

Like I said, I'm biased and I want him to get in. I owe everything basketball related to him and his contributions to the game. It may not be enough of a contribution as he "should have" made, but I feel it is enough to get him in eventually.

If anyone is bored and wants to relive his greatest games, please check out this channel that I run: http://www.youtube.com/vc15encyclopedia

Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts :cheers:Well said. I am in agreement. Also, nice channel.

[TheMarkMadsen]

First ballot HOF'er. He's the reason basketball boomed in Canada. He put up HOF calibur numbers for 10 straight seasons. And for those who think he was just a dunker...he shot over 40% from downtown 4 times and over 37% for his career. And that doesn't include his post game and his shot blocking ability in his younger days.


HOF numbers for 10 straight seasons? :biggums:

Are you counting seasons where he played in like 20 games?

Id love to see some stats to back up your claim of "HOF numbers for 10 straight years"

[Rake2204]

HOF numbers for 10 straight seasons? :biggums:

Are you counting seasons where he played in like 20 games?

Id love to see some stats to back up your claim of "HOF numbers for 10 straight years"I'm not sure I'd say Hall of Fame numbers for 10 seasons. However, I guess that'd depend upon what one believes to be "Hall of Fame numbers". A really loose estimate would be that Carter averaged about 23, 5, and 5, between the 1999-2000 season and the 2008-2009 season.

Carter most severely struggled with injuries in 2003, where he played a career low 43 games and averaged just 20.6 points per. However, in the three years prior to the '02-'03 campaign, Carter was dropping around 26 a night with five boards and four assists. Further, in the three years after '03, Carter averaged around 24.5ppg, 6rpg and 4.5apg. It was in the following years (with Carter aged 31 and 32) where the scoring numbers began to drop, but still remained pretty admirable (21ppg and still around 5.5rpg and 5apg).

Of course, the moment Carter left New Jersey, his numbers dropped to 17, 4, and 3 (at age 33). As such, some may argue 2008-2009 was his final exemplary campaign. As such, if we include his rookie numbers of 18, 6 and 3, we very well could be looking at 10 years of pretty excellent numbers. Of course, anyone could easily say those numbers are not Hall of Fame numbers to them, so it's sort of in the eye of the beholder.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartevi01.html

Also, as others have said, numbers don't always tell the whole story. A clear mark on Carter's career is the manner with which his days in Toronto ended. However, aside from that, I truly feel Carter's career is one that will be looked back upon and admired. I feel at some point, the general public may even finally get around to accepting the fact that Carter was not Kobe Bryant or Michael Jordan and his teams didn't win a championship. Once folks get past that, we'll be left with a star who had around 10 great years of NBA basketball, captivated many with his play style, revolutionized the dunk (as well helping popularize other mid-air acrobatics - namely the 360 layup), brought a Canadian franchise to relevance, and often rose to the occasion in clutch moments.

I truly do think it's worth noting that we're talking about the Hall of Fame here, not something to the effect of The Hall of Victory or The Hall of Superior Statistics. I don't think the Hall of Fame stands merely for those who become famous while playing basketball (sorry DeShawn Stevenson) but I also don't think it's merely about the bottom statistical line. I feel Carter should be a can't-miss Hall of Famer due to his mixture of outstanding and long-running basketball ability and the impact he's had the game itself over time.

[bizil]

I think VC has done enough to make the HOF. He was great long enough to warrant inclusion. During the Golden Era of SG's in the early 2000s, he was one of the key guys to make that era what it was. Plus he redefined dunks and freakish athletic ability in the L. He's arguably the greatest dunker was has ever lived. When u throw in over 21,000 career points, career averages of 21.4 points-3.9 assists-5.1 boards, and eight all star games, Vinsanity should make the HOF. With that said, his career projection had him being a top 10 GOAT SG. I think VC is more in that top 15-20 GOAT SG range.

[D.J.]

HOF numbers for 10 straight seasons? :biggums:

Are you counting seasons where he played in like 20 games?

Id love to see some stats to back up your claim of "HOF numbers for 10 straight years"


Be careful what you ask for, youngin. Seasons he played in 20 games? He had 1 injury plagued season(43 games in '03) and that was the only year between '00 and '09 where he played in less than 60 games. Anyway, his statlines from 2000-2009:


25.7/4.8/3.9/1.3/1.1

27.6/5.5/3.9/1.5/1.1

24.7/5.2/4.0/1.6/0.7

20.6/4.4/3.3/1.1/1.0

22.5/4.8/4.8/1.2/0.9

24.5/5.2/4.2/1.4/0.6

24.2/5.8/4.3/1.2/0.7

25.2/6.0/4.8/1.0/0.4

21.3/6.0/5.1/1.2/0.4

20.8/5.1/4.7/1.0/0.5


This is over a 10 year period. Any more questions?

[VeeCee15]

After 2001 when VC signed long term contract with the TORONTO, I repeat TORONTO, raptors his career started to fizz.

USA media and sponsors lost interest in him, also the refs started to show him 0 love. Along the way, he also had ACL surgery that year and he was NEVER the same athletically again. He still had 90% of his athleticism..but he just wasn't the same.

Unsure whether he should be in the hall of fame...he's my favorite player...but an underachiever.

He has the greatest athleticism I ever saw though..huge hops, body control, lightning quick first step. also the most FLUID bball player ever...everything looks effortless to him.

[Alan Ogg]

No, 135th all time in playoff points doesn't cut it for me.


http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_career_p.html (http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_career_p.html)

[Dave3]

Is this the same VC with the .445 fg%?
Kobe barely even shoots a full percent higher (.009), and you're saying because of his FG% Carter couldn't shoot the lights out? Hot damn stupidity is strong.

[RRR3]

Kobe barely even shoots a full percent higher (.009), and you're saying because of his FG% Carter couldn't shoot the lights out? Hot damn stupidity is strong.
THe way Kobe has been tossin' up bricks lately, Carter may catch up too :lol

[Dave3]

And the answer is yes, he definitely deserves hall of fame. Had some of the best playoff duels ever with Iverson in 2001, scoring 50 in a playoff game (on 9 3s), averaging 25+ ppg for several season, one of the most exciting players ever, and the best dunker of all time. There should be no question.

[Dave3]

THe way Kobe has been tossin' up bricks lately, Carter may catch up too :lol
And that's not even the point. Kobe shoots 45%, it's because he takes difficult shots but he's amazing and gets on fire. Carter shoots 45%, and he can't shoot the lights out because of his FG%?

:facepalm :facepalm

[Jacks3]

He should be in the HOF.

But, Kobe>>>>Vince.

Just sayin

[DirtySanchez]

I look at Carter's career and see what if's.
I font think he should go to the hall. He has no and is not close to any type of records or championships. He was a good player but not great IMO.

But he will get in...hell they let Ralph Sampson in. The bar is low IMO.

[DirtySanchez]

He should be in the HOF.

But, Kobe>>>>Vince.

Just sayin
That's a no brainer.