ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

[Kblaze8855]

Baylor got past Pippen in a vote that needed 4 recounts to confirm. Does dirk stop Elgin due to his recent playoff success?


http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/521/elginbaylor.jpg

11 time all star
10 time all NBA first team
Top 3 in MVP voting 4 times
Top 5 in scoring for 10 seasons in a row peaking at #2 to wilt twice
Holds NBA finals record for single game scoring(61 points)
Career 27/14/4 player with individual season highs of 38/20/5

vs

http://www.dallassportsfans.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/dirk_fadeaway.jpg

10 time all star
2007 NBa MVP
2011 NBA finals MVP
11 time all NBA(4 first 5 second)
Top 5 in scoring 2005 and 2009
Top 3 in FTs made in 2005 and 2010
Career 23/8/3 player with individual season highs of 26 points, 10 rebounds, and 3.5 assists.

For his quote I almost went with the comments his coach made but found something better...from Larry Bird:


On Dirk Nowitzki: "I can see a lot of the same things that he does that I did. We both were tall and able to shoot from outside. We rebound the ball pretty well. We

[Fatal9]

wow, how is Hondo ahead of all these guys.

[Harison]

Elgin was much more dominant as a player, Dirk has more accolades.


While many may find the comparison between Dirk and some of the elites bothersome...but it seems Bird doesnt. Thats saying something.
There is a difference with comparing someone (you can do that with any player, Kobe vs Jordan, etc), as long as fans understand limitations and context, and claiming that player is as good or better than some of the elites (Dirk vs Bird, etc).

[Kblaze8855]

Hondo? I suspect its the 8 rings(4-5 as a superstar), finals MVP, 29/9/8 stat lines in his prime, 13 all star games that could easily be 15, 11 all NBA teams, 8 all D teams, being the 5th highest scoring forward ever and being so highly regarded in his day he was voted the greatest Celtic ever ahead of Russell and Cousy. Probably has something to do with him being this high. He pretty much had Scottie Pippens career plus 2 rings and better numbers....and he won without his Jordan.

That said....hes not far from here.

[FF1]

lol @ some of the people that must be ahead of Dirk...

[FF1]

Dirk Nowitzki

MVP, Finals MVP and one of the clutchest players ever. Elgin might have had a better peak (in a different era.....) but Dirk has already had the better career.

btw.. if we're counting "Top 3 in MVP voting" lets do the same with Dirk. I know he's been top 3 at least 3 times, on top of winning it.

[Kblaze8855]

I believe he was second in 06 and third in 05.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

So let me get this straight. Dirk is 18th on the all time list, but the 13th best forward.

Insidehoops at its finest.

[PTB Fan]

Elgin Baylor.

He was a better offensive player overall, was more rounded, rebounded better, was more dominant presence overall and had a much better peak than Dirk. He was arguably a better performer in the post season and finals as well.

Their accomplishments are comparable, but Dirk achieved more with winning a title which Elgin never did (although he was given a championship ring..). Plus Baylor was a better athlete as well and more devastating player too.

Neither were force defensively though. I understand the case for Dirk, but Elgin should win this.

[Fatal9]

People's understanding of "better offensive player" has been amazing to me in the last and now this thread.

Hondo? I suspect its the 8 rings(4-5 as a superstar), finals MVP, 29/9/8 stat lines in his prime, 13 all star games that could easily be 15, 11 all NBA teams, 8 all D teams, being the 5th highest scoring forward ever and being so highly regarded in his day he was voted the greatest Celtic ever ahead of Russell and Cousy. Probably has something to do with him being this high. He pretty much had Scottie Pippens career plus 2 rings and better numbers....and he won without his Jordan.

That said....hes not far from here.
I'll discuss him when he comes on the list, won't start a secondary discussion here...Pippen vs. Havlicek would have been a good debate though.

[PTB Fan]

People's understanding of "better offensive player" has been amazing to me in the last and now this thread.

I'll discuss him when he comes on the list, won't start a secondary discussion here...Pippen vs. Havlicek would have been a good debate though.

Who's the better offensive player in your opinion? I've got Baylor, but it isn't by big margins.

[Carbine]

I'll take Dirk.

[fos]

Dirk and this is my 1,000th post! Must be a sign that I'm right? :confusedshrug:

[Odinn]

I didn't get this. How can there are 11 forwards better than Baylor&Nowitzki?


In Deuce Bigalow's GOAT project; Nowitzki was #18 and Baylor was #20.

Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Julius Erving, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett are the forwards ranked above Baylor&Nowitzki. Bob Pettit was #22. LeBron and Havlicek didn't get their position yet. At maximum I can name 9 forwards arguably or non-arguably better than Baylor&Nowitzki. But Baylor vs. Nowitzki thread is making for 12th spot?

[Big164]

0 rings
Dead last on his team in fg%
Played with two best players of the era, 0 rings
West made an NBA finals w/o him
Team improved when he retired, won ring w/o him

Vs

Reigning NBA champion/ Finals MVP
Made near 400% 3p 500 fg% 900 ft%
Played with no other superstars to get ring
Single handedly turned a dead franchise of 90s into champs
Beat Kobe durant lebron wade to get ring

Dirk wins this.

[Miller for 3]

Dirk. Better offensive anchor and had more impact. Baylor played on some sub .500 teams and Dirk's team have been winning 50+ games for over a decade. Baylor left the Lakers and they immediatley went on a 33 game winning streak, while whenever Dirk has missed games due to injury the Mavs struggle to even be competive in games

[Vienceslav]

I didn't get this. How can there are 11 forwards better than Baylor&Nowitzki?


In Deuce Bigalow's GOAT project; Nowitzki was #18 and Baylor was #20.

Larry Bird, Tim Duncan, Julius Erving, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett are the forwards ranked above Baylor&Nowitzki. Bob Pettit was #22. LeBron and Havlicek didn't get their position yet. At maximum I can name 9 forwards arguably or non-arguably better than Baylor&Nowitzki. But Baylor vs. Nowitzki thread is making for 12th spot?
Well Nowitzki can advance multiple times on this list if he wins this ,,match-up,, with Baylor.The upward ranking method can auto-correct itself.
My vote goes to Dirk.

[Legends66NBA7]

Pippen vs. Havlicek would have been a good debate though.

Fatal, i'll probably make a thread about that then.

[PTB Fan]

Dirk having a comfortable advantage so far...

[RobertdeMeijer]

Dirk Nowitzki

Offensive ability:
Dirk was the proficient but not flashy, Elgin was flashy but not proficient
Slight advantage Dirk

Defensive ability:
Neither were known for their defense, which I find both slightly below average for their position.
Tie

Accolades:
Baylor has more first team. But Dirk had to compete with Duncan, James and Garnett
Slight advantage Elgin

Achievements:
Elgin was tied for the best player on alot of teams that went to the finals. Dirk was the best player on a bunch of 60 win teams, a finals team and a finals winner
Tie

Playing style:
Elgin is known for being the first above-the-rim guy. But I do wonder if we'll ever see another Dirk
Sight advantage Elgin

Story:
Baylor kept losing in the finals, stopped playing, and missed out on being part of perhaps the best team ever. Dirk kept losing for years on end, gets together with a bunch of veterens who also deserved rings, and takes revenge on the team that beat them five years ago, only now they're chock full of talent and hubris.
Advantage: Dirk

Playing ability in a vacume:
Looking at Baylor, he wouldn't be in the NBA. If Dirk played in the 60's, he'd be a 7 foot Jerry West.
Advantage: Dirk

Statistics:
Baylor had some pretty good playoff runs, but Dirk had a whopping 5.4 win shares in the 2006 playoffs (second highest of all time). Dirk was also the player with the most win shares of the 00's.
Slight advantage: Dirk

[DMAVS41]

I'm confused as to how there are 11 better forwards than Baylor and Dirk. Considering both are usually in the top 20 on current all time lists.

This is really impossible for us all because 99% of us didn't watch Baylor.

I'll go with Dirk because most of the stats that adjust for pace and league averages favor him. And the way people rank here, titles are really important. Dirk now has one. And got one in about the most impressive fashion possible.

[HylianNightmare]

Dirk is going to take this one but i'm curious to see the rest of the roster...

[Yung D-Will]

I'm confused as to how there are 11 better forwards than Baylor and Dirk. Considering both are usually in the top 20 on current all time lists.

This is really impossible for us all because 99% of us didn't watch Baylor.

I'll go with Dirk because most of the stats that adjust for pace and league averages favor him. And the way people rank here, titles are really important. Dirk now has one. And got one in about the most impressive fashion possible.
Hondo
Bird
DR J
Barkley
Garnett
Malone
Duncan
Petit

None of them have been voted yet so who knows =O

[Odinn]

Well Nowitzki can advance multiple times on this list if he wins this ,,match-up,, with Baylor.The upward ranking method can auto-correct itself.
My vote goes to Dirk.
Nope. If Baylor lose in this round, he will be 13th in the list which is not accurate about him. You can not name 12 forwards better than Baylor.

And the same goes for Nowitzki. That was my point.

[Big164]

This is really impossible for us all because 99% of us didn't watch Baylor.



This excuse needs to be retired.

100% of us never saw Babe Ruth play, or Bill Russell for that matter. We rank them top 5 because they PROVED it with their accomplishments. The only thing Baylor proved is that he was so bad he shot 38% as slasher.

Sometimes seeing a player actually clouds judgement. If the 1960s era saw Steve Franics play they'd hail him the 2nd coming of Christ. Probably how they saw Baylor.

If you evaluate things objectively, Elgin Baylor doesn't belong in the top 15. He had more help than any other player, and still went ringless. He is a flashy inefficient chucker with inflated reb stats, nothing more.

[Fatal9]

Nope. If Baylor lose in this round, he will be 13th in the list which is not accurate about him. You can not name 12 forwards better than Baylor.
I can name 13 off the top of my head who are either outright better or have a case...

Bird
Duncan
KG
Dr. J
Malone
Barkley
Dirk
Pettit
LeBron
Barry
Pippen
McHale
Hondo


Who's the better offensive player in your opinion? I've got Baylor, but it isn't by big margins.
The big gap in their efficiency alone is enough to make Dirk better for me but then you compare their playing styles?

With Dirk creating mismatches, drawing bigs out of the paint, being able to score perfectly in a team setting in that you can iso him anywhere on the floor when you need a basket and you can work him into an offense without forcing it through him (through pick and pop, kick outs etc), spaces out the floor well for the entire team (very unique for his position), and on top of that he's an amazing decision maker with the ball (for a guy taking close to 20 shots a game and 7-8 FTs, it's remarkable how little he turns the ball over) who scores at a near 50/40/90 clip, plays off doubles well, fits his game well whether he's playing with role players or with all-stars, does more when he needs to and takes a step back when he needs to (because um, on most teams the best thing for a team's offense isn't the star player taking 30 shots a night), has been the centerpiece of great offensive teams for all his career and so on.

Elgin on the other hand I'm not sure had that sort of an effect on his team's offenses, especially as the 60s progressed and he was shooting 2-3% below league average some years (while other perimeter players like West and Oscar were having no problem scoring on well above league fg%). Dude comes a lot off like a chucker, and based on what is said about his game, he played around the rim a lot which makes his inefficiency even more damning to me. I just don't see how he was helping his teams as much as Dirk. Whenever he would miss games, Lakers would often post their best records, in '65 when he got injured in the playoffs...they still went to the finals (but when West was injured in '67 playoffs, they got swept in the first round), there was no drop off with him out in '66 (change of .4 SRS over 16 games), their record was better without him in '70, then he retires and Lakers reel off the longest winning streak ever. To his credit in '62 he did seem to positively impact the team more in games he played than I thought (positive change of 4.5 on the SRS of teams when he played). And he has some really poor shooting post-seasons...I don't personally think he was fitting his game well alongside another star (like West and later, Wilt), nor was he as important to the success of his teams as much as people believe by looking at his raw stats.

Other things Dirk has going for him? Durability. Won an MVP, put together one of the best playoff runs on route to a championship and finals MVP, led his teams to better records (Elgin in three seasons before Jerry West became "Jerry West" led teams to 33, 25 and 36 wins, never played on a team that won more than 55 games).

I'm voting for Dirk.

[L.Kizzle]

Wait, is McHale over Baylor and Dirk? :facepalm Baylor for me though.

[Yung D-Will]

We already did Pippen vs Mchale though...

[creepingdeath]

Dirk, although Baylor at #13 would be too low, imo.

[G.O.A.T]

The hard part for me is I can't justify Barkley or Malone over Baylor but they both feel like better players than Dirk. Dirk's title makes it tricky, sort of like Rick Barry's. They were all elite players at their peak, on the same level, but Barkley and Malone had Jordan in their way. This one is much harder for me than it seems like it is for the rest of you.

[DevilsAssassin]

wtf how did Baylor beat out Pippen?

ISH LMFAO

Dirk

[Brunch@Five]

Didn't see Elgin Baylor. Some call him a prime-Jerry Stackhouse in a weak era, others the prototype of Michael Jordan. He's probably in between those extremes. I couldn't justify a vote other than Dirk has proven to be a winner while Baylor has not. So, my vote goes to Nowitzki

[WillC]

I'm one of Dirk's biggest fans, but his career hasn't been as good as Baylor's. Not yet, anyway.

Baylor was a top 5 player in the league year-in, year-out. He was a perennial All-League 1st Team member. The same cannot be said for Nowitzki, although if Dirk wins another ring or two, I'd put him above Baylor for sure. Not yet though.

So, my vote goes to Baylor.

[pauk]

Elgin Baylor = Was more talented-skilled-dominant... better individual player...

Dirk Nowitzki = Arguably had a more accomplished career....

[D.J.]

Career averages
EB- 27.4/13.5/4.3 on 43.1%
DW- 23.0/8.4/2.7 on 47.6%


Regular season averaging 30+ PPG
EB- 3
DW- 0


# of times averaging a double-double
EB- 11
DW- 0


Playoff averages
EB- 27.0/12.9/4.0 on 43.9%
DW- 25.9/10.4/2.6 on 46.3%


Playoffs averaging 30+ PPG
EB- 4
DW- 0


Top 5 in PPG
EB- 8
DW- 2


Top 5 in RPG
EB- 4
DW- 0


Top 5 in MVP voting
EB- 7
DW- 3


Career PER
EB- 22.7
DW- 23.7


FTA/game
EB- 8.7
DW- 6.5


Titles
EB- 0(though he was given a ring for '72)
DW- 1


Finals Appearances
EB- 7
DW- 2


MVPs
EB- 0
DW- 1


All-NBA 1st teams
EB- 10
DW- 4


Elgin was simply a more dominant player. More accomplishments and more postseason success outside of Dirk's recent title.


Elgin Baylor

[PTB Fan]

The big gap in their efficiency alone is enough to make Dirk better for me but then you compare their playing styles?

Their playing styles are hard to compare because they played in different era and everything has to be taken in consideration.


With Dirk creating mismatches, drawing bigs out of the paint, being able to score perfectly in a team setting in that you can iso him anywhere on the floor when you need a basket and you can work him into an offense without forcing it through him (through pick and pop, kick outs etc), spaces out the floor well for the entire team (very unique for his position), and on top of that he's an amazing decision maker with the ball (for a guy taking close to 20 shots a game and 7-8 FTs, it's remarkable how little he turns the ball over) who scores at a near 50/40/90 clip, plays off doubles well, fits his game well whether he's playing with role players or with all-stars, does more when he needs to and takes a step back when he needs to (because um, on most teams the best thing for a team's offense isn't the star player taking 30 shots a night), has been the centerpiece of great offensive teams for all his career and so on.

Respectable points. Dirk has been very efficient and excellent offensively, as he's one of the all time finest in that regard. I understand the case for him.


Elgin on the other hand I'm not sure had that sort of an effect on his team's offenses, especially as the 60s progressed and he was shooting 2-3% below league average some years (while other perimeter players like West and Oscar were having no problem scoring on well above league fg%). Dude comes a lot off like a chucker, and based on what is said about his game, he played around the rim a lot which makes his inefficiency even more damning to me. I just don't see how he was helping his teams as much as Dirk. Whenever he would miss games, Lakers would often post their best records, in '65 when he got injured in the playoffs...they still went to the finals (but when West was injured in '67 playoffs, they got swept in the first round), there was no drop off with him out in '66 (change of .4 SRS over 16 games), their record was better without him in '70, then he retires and Lakers reel off the longest winning streak ever. To his credit in '62 he did seem to positively impact the team more in games he played than I thought (positive change of 4.5 on the SRS of teams when he played). And he has some really poor shooting post-seasons...I don't personally think he was fitting his game well alongside another star (like West and later, Wilt), nor was he as important to the success of his teams as much as people believe by looking at his raw stats.


Good points. I think Elgin was slightly better offensively, as he was a better pure scorer, more explosive and dominant in this regard too. 71 points is an incredible feat. 40.6 in a Finals series... four post seasons of at least 32.4+ points while leading.

The pace inflated his numbers, his shot selection was crazy and all of the other things like physicality, bad conditions to play, injuries also played a large role in his inefficiency. However, that cannot fully excuse him for being inefficient.

The argument for Baylor being a low impact player past 65 is right. I cannot respond to that. But pre 65 Elgin was a high impact player as he actually scored well within a team context and pushed them pretty far in the post season. In 62, he reached his peaked and that LA team was good.





Other things Dirk has going for him? Durability. Won an MVP, put together one of the best playoff runs on route to a championship and finals MVP, led his teams to better records (Elgin in three seasons before Jerry West became "Jerry West" led teams to 33, 25 and 36 wins, never played on a team that won more than 55 games).

I believe Elgin was just as good if not a better playoff and finals performer than Dirk. His case is hurt but not winning it all though. Baylor did lead them to a Finals in his rookie year and made them a respectable team despite not having notable players in the roster in an era where teams were loaded with HOFers.

[RobertdeMeijer]

Career averages
EB- 27.4/13.5/4.3 on 43.1%
DW- 23.0/8.4/2.7 on 47.6%
Career averages, but the 60s had a much higher pace than the 00s

Regular season averaging 30+ PPG
EB- 3
DW- 0
I don't think scoring 30ppg has alot of merit

# of times averaging a double-double
EB- 11
DW- 0
I don't think double-doubles are that important

Playoff averages
EB- 27.0/12.9/4.0 on 43.9%
DW- 25.9/10.4/2.6 on 46.3%
I don't think this is very convincing either. Do notice how Dirk put up more stats in the Playoffs

Playoffs averaging 30+ PPG
EB- 4
DW- 0
This I do not find a good argument

Top 5 in PPG
EB- 8
DW- 2
What about comparing their offensive rating?

Top 5 in RPG
EB- 4
DW- 0
I'll admit it is surprising that a small forward would do so well off the glass

Top 5 in MVP voting
EB- 7
DW- 3
This is a better argument

Career PER
EB- 22.7
DW- 23.7


FTA/game
EB- 8.7
DW- 6.5
It's probably better to mention True Shooting % than this

Titles
EB- 0(though he was given a ring for '72)
DW- 1


Finals Appearances
EB- 7
DW- 2


MVPs
EB- 0
DW- 1


All-NBA 1st teams
EB- 10
DW- 4
Dirk has 5 second teams if I recall correctly. Not bad, considering he was playing when Garnett, Duncan and LeBron were in the league

Elgin was simply a more dominant player. More accomplishments and more postseason success outside of Dirk's recent title.

If you're going to mention a bunch of per game statistics, why not compare their Win Shares?

Elgin Baylor

This post seems so biased to me

[D.J.]

This post seems so biased to me


No bias. Simply facts. Baylor was making the All-NBA 1st team while going up against Wilt, Cousy, Russell, Schayes, Arizan, Oscar, Heinsohn, West, and Petit. He was so dominant he made the All-NBA 1st team every single time he was nominated to make a team. He was never on the 2nd team.

[FF1]

No bias. Simply facts. Baylor was making the All-NBA 1st team while going up against Wilt, Cousy, Russell, Schayes, Arizan, Oscar, Heinsohn, West, and Petit. He was so dominant he made the All-NBA 1st team every single time he was nominated to make a team. He was never on the 2nd team.

You realize that forwards "don't go up against" people who aren't forwards, right?

[D.J.]

You realize that forwards "don't go up against" people who aren't forwards, right?


Of course, but the point is Baylor still had plenty of competition. To say he got those All-NBA teams or any recognition whatsoever because of his position or era is simply untrue.

[TMacsOneGoodEye]

0 rings
Dead last on his team in fg%
Played with two best players of the era, 0 rings
West made an NBA finals w/o him
Team improved when he retired, won ring w/o him

Vs

Reigning NBA champion/ Finals MVP
Made near 400% 3p 500 fg% 900 ft%
Played with no other superstars to get ring
Single handedly turned a dead franchise of 90s into champs
Beat Kobe durant lebron wade to get ring

Dirk wins this.

This.

[jlauber]

Very close...

Dirk.

[kentatm]

Originally Posted by Big164
0 rings
Dead last on his team in fg%
Played with two best players of the era, 0 rings
West made an NBA finals w/o him
Team improved when he retired, won ring w/o him

Vs

Reigning NBA champion/ Finals MVP
Made near 400% 3p 500 fg% 900 ft%
Played with no other superstars to get ring
Single handedly turned a dead franchise of 90s into champs
Beat Kobe durant lebron wade to get ring

Dirk wins this.

:oldlol:

x2

[Kblaze8855]

This one may not need the 2 days.

[PTB Fan]

This one may not need the 2 days.

Yeah... Dirk is blowing this thing :banana:

[kenny817]

:oldlol:

x2

That^

Dirk on mine

Dallas stand up

[raiderfan19]

Dirk. And i restate that dr j above him is laughable. Im imagining rick barry will be next but id prefer it to be dr j.

[Kblaze8855]

Dr j could be argued at like third or fourth. I wouldnt. But its not laughable to put him equal to or above anyone but duncan and bird.

[raiderfan19]

Yeah, it is. 24/8/4 in his prime, 22/7/4 for his career. Never won a title as the main guy. Only won one as a secondary guy. Played in a signifigantly higher scoring league while putting up now level numbers. Effecient but less so than dirk. Good defensive numbers but never an elite defender. The one caveat to the title as a secondary guy thing is that while fans of current players love to point out that _________ old guy played with x number of hall of famers its also important to note that all of the great old teams had a ton of hall of famers. Thats just the nature of a pre expansion league.

That said for some reason i though rick barry was better than his numbers indicate he was(in particular i thought he was more effecient) so i dont mind him being next.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont muc care about doctor js numbers. Its not a failing to shoot less than his talent allowed because he had capable teammates. He was clearly one of the most unstoppable players in the league and every time he made effort to score he did so. Im not gonna believe doc is scoring 21 a game out of an inability to score more. He just didnt need to

[raiderfan19]

The same thing applies to dirk though. Its not like dirk shot more than dr j in order to score more. In actuality they shot almost exactly the same. Dirk was more effecient because he could hit the 3 and hes one of the great ft shooters ever among great players. He also turned the ball over about half as much as prime dr j.

I know you dont care about his numbers and to a certain extent i understand that but dirk was better than dr j.

[raiderfan19]

For the record i know that this is a tough thing to do and youll never make everyone happy. While im complaining about dr j being too high if he was here there would be a ton of people complaining about him being too low if you put him here. Im just stating my opinions on the matter because im pretty that matchup wont happen

[Kblaze8855]

Lot of the things you say just dont make sense coming fro ma Dirk fan to me. You talk about 24/8/4 in his prime like its something to be mocked. Yes that was his MVP season(24.6/8/4 2 steals and 2 blocks)...but dirk put up 24.6/8.9/3 in his MVP season. What its impressive for dirk but not Doc? You can say he played in a faster era but when he didnt use it to take more shots im not sure how it matters. Both only took 20 shots in one season. Dirk scored 25.9 that year. Doc 26.9. You say hes 22/7/4 for his career. Dirk is 23/8.4/3 and hes not had 5 years of past his prime play to drag it down yet.

Doc simply did not put much effort into producing numbers so I dont see why we need to judge him by them. He was in the ABA dropping 39ppg in the 76 finals...vs a team that was in the NBA the very next season(a 50 win NBA team with 3 all stars including all time great stopper Bobby Jones who he dropped 45, 47, 38, and 42 on on absurd shooting percentages). What it doesnt count when you beat and destroy a 50 win team of NBA all stars when they have an ABA jersey on months before being in the NBA? They were even coached by Larry Brown.

He just didnt have reason to go so hard to score in the NBA because his teams were great and didnt lean on him. His numbers are close to irrelevant to me. As are dirks.

Both could no doubt do more than they have.

[raiderfan19]

Im not talking about any particular season. Im talking about both of their primes. And no his aba numbers dont mean anything because it was a different game. Dr j had one season in his career where he averaged 25 a game(admittedly an arbitrary number). Dirk has 5. As mentiomed dr j and dirk both won one title, dr j as a sidekick, dirk as the main guy.

Dirk was simply a better player.

[kenny817]

Im not talking about any particular season. Im talking about both of their primes. And no his aba numbers dont mean anything because it was a different game. Dr j had one season in his career where he averaged 25 a game(admittedly an arbitrary number). Dirk has 5. As mentiomed dr j and dirk both won one title, dr j as a sidekick, dirk as the main guy.

Dirk was simply a better player.
this^
:applause:

[Kblaze8855]

The 76 nuggets were the same team in the nba the very next year with the same main guys and coach.

And nothing you just wrote is evidence dirk is better to me. Nothing. Like 5 25ppg seasons? Really? Dirk didnt do 25 this year. Or his mvp year. The **** does it matter?

And a title as sidekick vs best player? Do you think i believe dirk is better now than a year ago? Or that doc losing to showtime and birds celtics make him worse than people who beat the magic or bullets?

Its evidence. Career resume shit. Nothing id cite when saying one guy is flat out better than another. Thats an ability thing to me. And clearly docs ability isnt shown in numbers.

[L.Kizzle]

Wait, not only is Dirk better than Baylor, now he's better than Doc J?

Up until last season, he was barley in people top 35 All-Time list, now he's moved all the way up to 15 or so? Title's of course are important, but people put too much on titles?

It's just like Elgin Baylor, he's a borderline top 15 FORWARD because he couldn't win the big one? And now Dirk Nowitzki, who just last season was no where near top 15 All-Time, is now there?

If you're a great player, you're a great player. Dirk has a title, Barkley doesn't. But I'm still taking Chuck.

Dirk has possibly made the highest jump in ranking history this past season. Even when KG won a ring, he didn't move up this much, why cause he was already high up on the list.

[tpols]

And no his aba numbers dont mean anything because it was a different game..
How do his ABA performances not matter? I guess they didnt play basketball in that league..

[Kblaze8855]

I can see why not count the aba as the same but really.....the team he scored like 40ppg on in the finals was in the nba winning 50 games the very next season. With 3 nba all stars. Coached by a hof nba coach. With an nba dpoy level defender guarding doc. Im not calling that nothing.

[raiderfan19]

The reason not to count the aba numbers is because we saw him in his prime in the nba and he didnt do anything remotely similar

[L.Kizzle]

The reason not to count the aba numbers is because we saw him in his prime in the nba and he didnt do anything remotely similar
He didn't ... can you name anyone on those ABA Nets teams ... yet most can name most of his 6ers teammates. He had a lil more help in Phila than NJ hence his average goin from the high 20 to the lower 20s.

[tpols]

The reason not to count the aba numbers is because we saw him in his prime in the nba and he didnt do anything remotely similar
He won an MVP award while in a league with prime Bird, Magic, Moses and KAJ. What do you mean he didn't do anything remotely similar? You mean he didn't put up the same numbers? He had an impact that was on par with top ten GOAT all time greats at the time. Fvck numbers..

[L.Kizzle]

He won an MVP award while in a league with prime Bird, Magic, Moses and KAJ. What do you mean he didn't do anything remotely similar? You mean he didn't put up the same numbers? He had an impact that was on par with top ten GOAT all time greats at the time. Fvck numbers..
Apparently his number went down so he's wasn't as good ...wired considering between 77 and 83, he took the Sixers to the Finals every year except 78 and 79.

[tpols]

Apparently his number went down so he's wasn't as good ...wired considering between 77 and 83, he took the Sixers to the Finals every year except 78 and 79.
He was also a pioneer for the modern guard.. jordan before jordan. Numbers should never be the only way you judge these guys.

[Kblaze8855]

Really...to look at his ABa numbers then NBA as if the situations were even similar just makes little sense. he went from a team bobby Jones said this of:


"He destroys the adage that I've always been taught -- that one man can't do it alone,"

To a team with 3 guys who were all star level all of them for offensive reasons. Hes got George who was all nba before him...World B Free who would become a 30ppg scorer once he left Philly...and Collins. And he joins them. he didnt eve ntake the most shots on the team.

The most shots a game he took in the NBA was less than his least inthe ABA. But when it was close(he took just under 21 one year in the NBA and just over 21 two years in the ABA) he scored the same 27ppg in both leagues. in 78 he was ona 55 win NBA team full of talent shooting 16 shots a game and playing a full 10 less minutes a game than in the ABA. in 1980 his points per minute were higher than in 3 of his 5 ABA seasons. He could have scored just as much in the NBA. he just didnt play the minutes or take the shots.

But because he was unselfish enough to not cause a disruption on a team full of egos by demanding shots 30 years later people act like he fell off....

Really...what was he supposed to do? Take 27 shots a game to prove he still had it? Nobody who saw him disputes that he was a monster. he had nothing to prove.

When eh decided to do more he did.

In the last 2 games of his finals he had:

37. 40. 36. 27. 23(30 point win), and when he finally won:



However, it was Dr. J who closed the door. Sensing his 1st NBA title, he made the biggest plays. With L.A. leading 106-104, The Doctor stole the ball from Kareem and dunked it home to tie the game at 106. Following a Laker free throw, Erving converted a 3-point play to give the 76’ers a 109-107 lead with 59 seconds left. After a steal, Dr. J then nailed a 1-handed runner over Magic from the top of the key to make it 111-107 with 24 seconds left.

you cant watch the guy and conclude he was just being held to 20-23ppg.

He just didnt shoot a lot when he had teammates who didnt require it of him.

This is why so many young players are selfish. If you dont try to show your ass every night people act like you cant.

I myself was once guilty of underrating the guy(mostly because my main memories were of old Doc) but the more I look into him and the more I see...

He was far better than hes often given credit for.

[eliteballer]

You have to understand something. There is a difference between pre-merger NBA and post-merger NBA. The post merger NBA wasn't better than the ABA just because you might think it had *always* been superior.

It was superior because it was the NBA COMBINED with the ABA. Thats not to forget all the running and lack of D in the ABA.

I mean really...Docs 80 season was just about as good as any ABA season he ever had from a numbers standpoint, except the rebounds and thats not surprising considering everyone had gaudy rebounding numbers in the ABA and they all went down when the leagues merged.

[Kblaze8855]

Spread over his peak ABA minutes his 80 season would be 32(31.5 rounded), 9 and 5 with over 2 steals and over 2 blocks. Put Doc in his prime on a team that had reason to ride him like his ABA teams and he probably would have been around 30ppg in the NBA.

[raiderfan19]

So you are arguing that he had these all world teammates and didnt win as a POSITIVE for ranking him higher? Really? Look you can call it what you want but dirk had a better nba career than doc and its basically inarguable. Dirk scored more on less shots while rebounding more and turning the ball over half as much. He also happened to lead a team to a title as the main guy which doc never did.

This isnt sabonis where we have to speculate what he would have done in the nba. He played in the nba(a much higher scoring nba than the current one) and we can use that to judge him. Those nuggets that you love saying were the same team the following season in the nba avged 10 less points a game in their first nba season. I reitirate something i said earlier(not in this thread) doc is one of the most overrated players in nba history.

[raiderfan19]

Wait, not only is Dirk better than Baylor, now he's better than Doc J?Up until last season, he was barley in people top 35 All-Time list, now he's moved all the way up to 15 or so? Title's of course are important, but people put too much on titles?
It's just like Elgin Baylor, he's a borderline top 15 FORWARD because he couldn't win the big one? And now Dirk Nowitzki, who just last season was no where near top 15 All-Time, is now there?
If you're a great player, you're a great player. Dirk has a title, Barkley doesn't. But I'm still taking Chuck.
Dirk has possibly made the highest jump in ranking history this past season. Even when KG won a ring, he didn't move up this much, why cause he was already high up on the list.
The issue with this is that comparing chuck to dr j, dr j wasnt anywhere near as good as chuck. I have no problem ranking chuck over dirk though i wouldnt necesarrily do it. Dr. J though? Nope.

[raiderfan19]

And yet again i will point this out, im comparing dirk to him, not elgin baylor. Dirk shot less than dr j, so the he didnt shoot alot in the nba argument has no merit in this case.

I dont think dr j was worse in the nba than the aba, i just think the league inflated his numbers. And 1980 WAS his peak kblaze. He was 29 years old.

[Kblaze8855]

He had very good teammates and they hurt his numbers. His numbers that were what you were complaining about.

And its nothing close to inarguable that dirk had a better NBA career. 2 finals, an MVP, and a win as #1 vs 4 finals, an MVP, and a win as #2 who is still a superstar(all NBa first team that year...5th in MVp voting and 3rd the season before)?

Lets not act like dirk has been some beloved always coming through shining light of glory icon. He spent most of his career being blamed(right or wrong) for losing over and over and over and going through letdown after letdown. This isnt Duncan or Shaq vs Doc. Dirk spent most of his career going between loved and hated. For example:

http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/10182857


We're going to look back on "2007 NBA Most Valuable Player Dirk Nowitzki" and laugh. Hell, some of us were laughing before he even picked up his trophy.

Nowitzki, who wimped out of the playoffs and took Dallas down with him, as MVP of this NBA season is flat out wrong. It's criminal. Felonious.

Dirk tore it up in the regular season, but his back was turned in the playoffs. (Getty Images)

But who's the felon? Who do we blame? We've got the crime nailed, but who do we convict?


Not Nowitzki. It's not his fault that he's a gutless fraud, a player with so much size and skill that the game comes easy to him right up to the point where the game gets hard. I'd call Nowitzki a bully, but he's not tough enough to be a bully. A bully would have taken the puny Golden State Warriors' lunch money, but Nowitzki hid behind Josh Howard, which is why the Mavericks became the first No. 1 seed to lose a best-of-7 playoff series to a No. 8 seed.

In the regular season Nowitzki averaged 24.6 points and shot 50.2 percent from the floor, and Dallas led the NBA with 67 victories. In the playoffs he averaged 19.7 ppg and shot 38.3 percent when Dallas lost in six games to the Warriors. And don't blame Nowitzki's deterioration on the chaotic style of the smaller, quicker Warriors. Do not go there. Nowitzki plays the same position as Utah's Carlos Boozer, who is pounding Golden State for 22 ppg and 14.7 rpg. Boozer has increased his production in the playoffs (from 20.9 ppg and 11.7 rpg in the regular season), which is what a true superstar does.

Nowitzki? He's a beauty contestant. Looks great, I'll give you that. But no substance.

Still, he's not the criminal here. He put up huge numbers for 82 games, and the Mavs won 67 of those games. So who do we blame for "Dirk Nowitzki, 2007 NBA MVP"?

Not the voters. It's not their fault they were sucked into Nowitzki's fraudulence, although in hindsight, which is all we have at the moment, Nowitzki already had been exposed in the 2006 NBA Finals as a withering daisy. Turn up the heat, and Nowitzki wilts. That's what happened last year against Miami, which harassed him into 22.8 ppg on 39-percent shooting to rally from a 2-0 deficit to win the title in six games. In that sixth game, in Dallas, Nowitzki scored two points in the fourth quarter of a 95-92 loss. MVP my ass.


To say its inarguable that dirk has a better career and claim hes simply better...when its virtually without doubt he would come in ahead of dirk if any number of people reasonably expected to know the game were asked?

What...what do you know that you think the rest of the world doesnt? That I dont? that makes it inarguable that dirk is better and had a better career? That I...and the many people who put him over dirk...dont know?

What new information do you have to offer?

7 foot Dirk got more rebounds(and in his prime has years of 7 or 8). That he scored more when Doc clearly made no effort to be a top scorer? Dirk got less turnovers as a guy who pretty much shot jumpers? Shooters shouldnt have turnovers. Nobody is looking at turnover numbers judging these guys. Really...someone throws Dirk the ball. he turns on his pivot looks at the basket...falls away and shoots. Why would he have many turnovers? What great shooters have a lot of turnovers?

You are just talking irrelevant shit now. Like im worried about the Nuggets total ppg(and for the record...they scored morei n the early 80s than they did in the ABA). In the 76 finals doctor J dropped nearly 40ppg on an NBA TEAM as of like...3 months from then. The only reason the Nuggets were even still in the ABA was a court order preventing them from leaving till seasons end. They and another ABA team or two would have been in the NBA in 1972 AND 75 if not for court orders. They were an NBA team in the ABA waiting for the legal process to let them go. It was 3 instant NBA all stars on a good NBA level team and Larry Brown coaching.

This isnt some gang of 1969 randoms who never made noise in the league who the ABA stuck together to fill a roster. Its Hall of fame NBA players(plural)...and all stars. An 8 time NBA all defensive first teamer guarding Doc.

Getting 45-48 points dropped on him.

Not gonna write it off as the ABA as if the color of the ball means Bobby Jones couldnt play D or as if 3 NBA al lstars learned to be NBA level over a summer.

Doc destroyed many NBA level teams and players and the only reason he didnt keep it up in the NBA was not needing to do it.

So now...hes hated on for numbers.

Dirk pretty much is todays Dr.J had they had their usual quiet exit last year and traded for Dwight Howard and won whenever the NBA returns.

The majority of his career he pretty much was getting hated on like im sure Doc was. Only doc made it tothe ECF or the finals all but one season before he was 34 and past his all nba days so maybe he was a bit less hated on without an 07 like collapse.

Dirk is what hes always been. I remember people laughing because I said he and KG were both on the Malone level 4 years ago.

But no way in hell is it inarguable which of them is better. Inarguable things arent disagreed with at the rate this is.

[WillC]

Sorry, posted in the wrong thread.

[RRR3]

Anyone who thinks Dirk is better than Dr. J needs their head checked.:facepalm

[PTB Fan]

Anyone who thinks Dirk is better than Dr. J needs their head checked.:facepalm

This...

And is this thing over because Dirk is winning by a lot

[D-Wade316]

Anyone who thinks Dirk is better than Dr. J needs their head checked.:facepalm
Yeah. Not even close.

[greensborohill]

Dirk

[greensborohill]

Anyone who thinks Dirk is better than Dr. J needs their head checked.:facepalm
Dirk's better than leBron. . . just look at my Avatar.

[greensborohill]

2011 NBA Finals Fact: In this six-game series, Dirk Nowitzki had the single highest-scoring fourth quarter. He also was No. 2. And No. 3. And No. 4. And No. 5.

[Yung D-Will]

2011 NBA Finals Fact: In this six-game series, Dirk Nowitzki had the single highest-scoring fourth quarter. He also was No. 2. And No. 3. And No. 4. And No. 5.
In finals history?

Link?

[greensborohill]

In finals history?

Link?

No, just the 2011 Finals.

[raiderfan19]

Kblaze you seriously dont see the stupidity of saying that the only reason dr j didnt score more than dirk is because he didnt try, while dirk actually shot less than him? Really? Dirk absolutely could have scored more if he wanted/needed to. As for the choking thing, whats generally thought of as dirks biggest choke? The 2006 finals because they were up 2-0 and lost. The funny thing is that was the second time that happened and doc just happened to be the best player on the 77 sixers who were the first team it happened to.

Just so were clear i dont think our huge disagreement in this is what we think of dirk, its what we think of doc. Im not entirely sure where id rank dirk but id have nowhere near as big an argument if any with dirk being behind bird/duncan/kg/malone/havlicek/barkley/lebron off the top of my head. Im not saying i personally rank all those guys higher(other than kg iv never really thought about it though on initial thinking id have all of them but maybe kg higher).

As for the rebounds, its fair to point out that dirks a big whereas doc was not but at the same time that works in reverse for their assists. If you adjust dirks rebounds for being a big then you adjust docs assists for being a small and you come out even and this matchup goes back to whos the better scorer which is dirk.

As for the turnovers not mattering, thats just wrong.

[FF1]

On to the next one...

[RRR3]

Holy shit Kobe stans are bad enough we don't need dirk stans acting like selfentitled pricks too

[greensborohill]

leBron get scerd in big moments. . LOL!!

[D-Wade316]

Dirk's better than leBron. . . just look at my Avatar.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Wade punked Dork in there 2 Finals meeting. The reason why they won is because Dork's teammates came up.

GTFO:facepalm

[greensborohill]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Wade punked Dork in there 2 Finals meeting. The reason why they won is because Dork's teammates came up.

GTFO:facepalm

Wade's a fvcking freethrow champion 'bro. . everyone knows it. Stern got pizzed and told the refs to rig that sh!t. Even Phil Jackson & tracy Mcgrady agree. So have fun with your fake 2006 title. Dirk & the Mavs will take the 2011 title, where he punked the sh!t out of the supposed #1 & #2 players in the game.

[creepingdeath]

In finals history?

Link?
He's third of fourth in 4th quarter points scored behind MJ and Shaq iirc.

[D-Wade316]

:blah :blah :blah
:sleeping

[RRR3]

Wade's a fvcking freethrow champion 'bro. . everyone knows it. Stern got pizzed and told the refs to rig that sh!t. Even Phil Jackson & tracy Mcgrady agree. So have fun with your fake 2006 title. Dirk & the Mavs will take the 2011 title, where he punked the sh!t out of the supposed #1 & #2 players in the game.

I realize I'm responding to a troll, but Wade outplayed Dirk in the finals this year. Sorry. Just because the Mavs won doesn't mean they had the best player in the series. Plus, it was Jason Terry who stepped up late in the series, especially game 6 when Dirk shot 9-27 :facepalm

[greensborohill]

I realize I'm responding to a troll, but Wade outplayed Dirk in the finals this year. Sorry. Just because the Mavs won doesn't mean they had the best player in the series. Plus, it was Jason Terry who stepped up late in the series, especially game 6 when Dirk shot 9-27 :facepalm

Not in the 4th quarter when it counts he didn't. It's like Tim Legler says, the first 3 quarters are easy and free flowing, sh!t gets real in the 4th. That's why Dirk is a champion, b/v D-Wade and LBJ weren't there for their team when they were needed. They weren't the leaders they were supposed to be in the 4th quarter. Sorry man, I don't know how many times I have to say this sh!t before you guys get it through your thick skulls.

[D.J.]

Wait, not only is Dirk better than Baylor, now he's better than Doc J?

Up until last season, he was barley in people top 35 All-Time list, now he's moved all the way up to 15 or so? Title's of course are important, but people put too much on titles?

It's just like Elgin Baylor, he's a borderline top 15 FORWARD because he couldn't win the big one? And now Dirk Nowitzki, who just last season was no where near top 15 All-Time, is now there?

If you're a great player, you're a great player. Dirk has a title, Barkley doesn't. But I'm still taking Chuck.

Dirk has possibly made the highest jump in ranking history this past season. Even when KG won a ring, he didn't move up this much, why cause he was already high up on the list.


:applause: Repped. Dirk is a great player, no doubt. And he does go up a few spots with his ring. But he goes up a few spots, not 15-20. I don't even consider him a top 5 PF. I have Duncan/Barkley/Malone/Garnett/McHale ahead of Dirk. The only thing I hold against Dirk is for the amount of regular season success he's had, he has very little to show for it.

[raiderfan19]

:applause: Repped. Dirk is a great player, no doubt. And he does go up a few spots with his ring. But he goes up a few spots, not 15-20. I don't even consider him a top 5 PF. I have Duncan/Barkley/Malone/Garnett/McHale ahead of Dirk. The only thing I hold against Dirk is for the amount of regular season success he's had, he has very little to show for it.
Mchale ahead if dirk is the equivalent of having horry ahead of chris webber. Just absolutely effing retarded

[RRR3]

Mchale ahead if dirk is the equivalent of having horry ahead of chris webber. Just absolutely effing retarded
Says the guy who is arguing for Dirk over Dr. J :rolleyes:

[greensborohill]

First of all, if you took your head out of Dirk's anus, you might recall that he lost as the number one seed to the ****ing Golden State Warriors (the 8th seed) back in 2007, which is worse than anything LBJ's ever done. Secondly, read this and then get back to me: http://www.backpicks.com/2011/06/17/late-game-bias-when-some-points-count-more/

Wade got swept as a defending champion (got blown out by 44 points opening night after being given a fake championship by Vince McMahon. . I mean David Stern), James got swept in the Finals.

So the fvck what, everyone has failures. I'm talking about Wade & James not being leaders during the 2011 Finals, not showing up in 4th quarters, and by the 6th game QUITTING on their teammates.

In regards to your article, ask former NBA players and columnists which is the more important quarter, they'll let you know.

[PTB Fan]

:applause: Repped. Dirk is a great player, no doubt. And he does go up a few spots with his ring. But he goes up a few spots, not 15-20. I don't even consider him a top 5 PF. I have Duncan/Barkley/Malone/Garnett/McHale ahead of Dirk. The only thing I hold against Dirk is for the amount of regular season success he's had, he has very little to show for it.

Good points. Although i'm a big Dirk fan, i doubt he's better at this point than Timmy, KG, Malone, Pettit and Barkley. A case can be made for the likes of Kevin McHale too.

Nowitzki had a historical year, but to claim he's better than the likes of Karl Malone and Charles Barkley because he won a ring... i just shows you how overrated he has unfortunately become.

[D.J.]

Mchale ahead if dirk is the equivalent of having horry ahead of chris webber. Just absolutely effing retarded


Kind of like your 5 1/2 year run on ISH.

[kenny817]

The only thing I hold against Dirk is for the amount of regular season success he's had, he has very little to show for it.

One ring...two finals appearances while playing in the Kobe/Shaq/Duncan era is beyond VERY impressive wouldn't you say? Add in 50 wins EVERY season besides his first two when he was a kid. MVP as well.

Yall are downplaying his success tremendously. I'm not just saying this because I've been a lifelong Mavs fan. Hell I think Duncan is the greatest PF ever and I hate his guts lol

[D.J.]

One ring...two finals appearances while playing in the Kobe/Shaq/Duncan area is beyond VERY impressive wouldn't you say?


No, I would not say. Winning 1 title and losing in the Finals in another is not "beyond VERY impressive".



Add in 50 wins EVERY season besides his first two when he was a kid. MVP as well.


The supporting cast had nothing to do with that, I'm sure. Playing with Nash and Finley had nothing to do with it either.



Yall are downplaying his success tremendously. I'm not just saying this because I've been a lifelong Mavs fan. Hell I think Duncan is the greatest PF ever and I hate his guts lol


More like being grossly overrated because of his 1 ring. And WTF does Duncan have to do with this?

[greensborohill]

No, I would not say. Winning 1 title and losing in the Finals in another is not "beyond VERY impressive".




The supporting cast had nothing to do with that, I'm sure. Playing with Nash and Finley had nothing to do with it either.




More like being grossly overrated because of his 1 ring. And WTF does Duncan have to do with this?

1. So I guess Dr. J isn't impressive either?

2. Says the guy arguing for Dr. J, who played alongside Moses Malone to get his only ring. . . . . nice double standard.

[kenny817]

@D.J. just threw in Duncan to show I have no bias even though I'm a Mavs fan.

Why all the Dirk hate? The man did his thing give him some props

[D.J.]

1. So I guess Dr. J isn't impressive either?

2. Says the guy arguing for Dr. J, who played alongside Moses Malone to get his only ring. . . . . nice double standard.


It's only a double standard because you're a Dirk/Mavs fan. And Dr. J. has nothing to do with this. It's irrelevant to the point I made.

[D.J.]

@D.J. just threw in Duncan to show I have no bias even though I'm a Mavs fan.

Why all the Dirk hate? The man did his thing give him some props


I have no bias either. I don't dislike Dirk. I have no reason to hate him. He was a great individual talent that despite his regular season success, has little to show for it. That's the only negative thing I've ever said about Dirk.

[Big164]

:applause: Repped. Dirk is a great player, no doubt. And he does go up a few spots with his ring. But he goes up a few spots, not 15-20. I don't even consider him a top 5 PF. I have Duncan/Barkley/Malone/Garnett/McHale ahead of Dirk. The only thing I hold against Dirk is for the amount of regular season success he's had, he has very little to show for it.
Duncan is the only PF who has an ABSOLUTE argument over Dirk, Chuck and Malone are debatable.

Its not just the fact that Dirk has a ring, it's how he won his ring and the teams he had to beat to get it. Dirk overcoming Kobe Lebron, Wade, Durant is more impressive than Barkley losing to MJ and running to uncle Hakeem for a ring. Dirk never ran, Chuck ran twice in his career and still got nothing.

Malone at least has a scoring advantage over Dirk and two finals appearances. I'm torn on who is better but Dirks story is not finished yet and he can eventually become a solid #2 PF

[greensborohill]

It's only a double standard because you're a Dirk/Mavs fan. And Dr. J. has nothing to do with this. It's irrelevant to the point I made.


You're right man. This is the only thing that is relevant:

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/58/5868/UCOSG00Z/posters/dallas-mavericks-dirk-nowitzki-with-mvp-championship-trophies.jpg

In regards to the trophy in his right hand, go find me a pic of Dr. J, or KG with a similar pic.

In regards to the trophy in his left hand: go find me a pic of Baylor, Barkley, or Malone with a similar pic.

[D.J.]

Duncan is the only PF who has an ABSOLUTE argument over Dirk, Chuck and Malone are debatable.


Not debatable at all. Duncan, Barkley, and Malone are above Dirk without question. Garnett and McHale are debatable.



Its not just the fact that Dirk has a ring, it's how he won his ring and the teams he had to beat to get it. Dirk overcoming Kobe Lebron, Wade, Durant is more impressive than Barkley losing to MJ and running to uncle Hakeem for a ring. Dirk never ran, Chuck ran twice in his career and still got nothing.


Funny how he wins 1 ring and you all put him up on this pedestal. Chuck was traded both times. He never left via free agency. Philadelphia was a garbage team when he left and the Suns were a .500 team that struggled to make the playoffs when he left. He had no shot at a ring with Philly after '90 and when he left Phoenix. From '03 until now, the Mavs were a contender most of the time.



Malone at least has a scoring advantage over Dirk and two finals appearances. I'm torn on who is better but Dirks story is not finished yet and he can eventually become a solid #2 PF.


He has no shot at anything better than #4. Malone was simply a much more dominant player and that doesn't even get to longevity. Malone has 2 MVPs, runner up once and 3rd place on 2 other occassions, 11 All-NBA 1st teams, 3 All-Defensive 1st teams, 8 consecutive seasons of 25+/10+, and was one of the better post defenders of his time. Dirk has no shot at surpassing Malone.

[D.J.]

You're right man. This is the only thing that is relevant:

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/58/5868/UCOSG00Z/posters/dallas-mavericks-dirk-nowitzki-with-mvp-championship-trophies.jpg

In regards to the trophy in his right hand, go find me a pic of Dr. J, or KG with a similar pic.

In regards to the trophy in his left hand: go find me a pic of Baylor, Barkley, or Malone with a similar pic.


Now I know not to take you seriously. Horry > Jordan.

[Legends66NBA7]

Not debatable at all. Duncan, Barkley, and Malone are above Dirk without question. Garnett and McHale are debatable.





Funny how he wins 1 ring and you all put him up on this pedestal. Chuck was traded both times. He never left via free agency. Philadelphia was a garbage team when he left and the Suns were a .500 team that struggled to make the playoffs when he left. He had no shot at a ring with Philly after '90 and when he left Phoenix. From '03 until now, the Mavs were a contender most of the time.





He has no shot at anything better than #4. Malone was simply a much more dominant player and that doesn't even get to longevity. Malone has 2 MVPs, runner up once and 3rd place on 2 other occassions, 11 All-NBA 1st teams, 3 All-Defensive 1st teams, 8 consecutive seasons of 25+/10+, and was one of the better post defenders of his time. Dirk has no shot at surpassing Malone.


D.J., what's the case for Bob Pettit on the all-time power forwards list? Is there a debate with Pettit against these guys:

Duncan? Barkley? Malone? Dirk? Garnett?

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze you seriously dont see the stupidity of saying that the only reason dr j didnt score more than dirk is because he didnt try, while dirk actually shot less than him? Really?

For one...my comment that he clearly could have scored more had nothing to d owith Dirk. I didnt care about Dirk at all in my first several comments.

Second...if you look into what Doc shot in his career(NBA career only) up until he stopped being a top flight player its less than the 17.9 Dirk has shot since he became a superstar(id say 02).


Dirk absolutely could have scored more if he wanted/needed to.

Really? I was unaware. Even though I said this:


He just didnt have reason to go so hard to score in the NBA because his teams were great and didnt lean on him. His numbers are close to irrelevant to me. As are dirks.

Both could no doubt do more than they have



As for the choking thing, whats generally thought of as dirks biggest choke? The 2006 finals because they were up 2-0 and lost. The funny thing is that was the second time that happened and doc just happened to be the best player on the 77 sixers who were the first team it happened to.

Really? they have similar failures? I dont believe I mentioned that they led similar careers. Except for when I said they led similar career with similar things blamed on them.



Just so were clear i dont think our huge disagreement in this is what we think of dirk, its what we think of doc.

Im sure it is. Ive not even been talking about Dirk the last few times this came up.


Im not entirely sure where id rank dirk but id have nowhere near as big an argument if any with dirk being behind bird/duncan/kg/malone/havlicek/barkley/lebron off the top of my head. Im not saying i personally rank all those guys higher(other than kg iv never really thought about it though on initial thinking id have all of them but maybe kg higher).

I imagine Dirk has a little trouble winning the next matchup but not too much...which would put him against Lebron...which will be interesting.


As for the rebounds, its fair to point out that dirks a big whereas doc was not but at the same time that works in reverse for their assists. If you adjust dirks rebounds for being a big then you adjust docs assists for being a small and you come out even and this matchup goes back to whos the better scorer which is dirk.

Not really. For one...by most accounts Doc wasnt as much an outstanding passer as a flashy one and his ability to draw doubles on the drive let him get a lot of dropoff assists with his hangtime and big hands. Which is about what I remember. And Dirk while hes had 10 rebound seasons hes also had 7...and months at like 5. Hes not actually a very good rebounder. hes just a 7 footer who played big enough minutes to get a lot of rebounds. But even a guy like Malone who is an overrated rebounder...in his late career(last 10 years) when he wasnt getting more rebounds than Dirk at his best...he was in fact...a better rebounder.

Neither of the issues are as simple as their numbers.

And the scoring sure as hell isnt. I just dont see any evidence that Doc wasnt scoring less out of unselfishness. And him being questioned so much about it really makes me understand why so many players are selfish. Fans really do tie your talent to your ppg no matter the situation or how much success you get out of it. The nwe turn around and hate on the selfish guys who cant blend with talent?

Doesnt add up to me.


As for the turnovers not mattering, thats just wrong.

Id be surprised if every small forward and ball handling 4 near the top of this list didnt get more turnovers than Dirk. Im pretty positive Barkley is near the top all time. Guys who do more with the ball turn it over more. Its a matter of greater skills leading to worse numbers similar to how better defense often leads to less blocks or better scoring talent leads to worse field goal percentage.

None of these numbers mean a thing to me without putting thought into why they are what they are. doesnt feel like you are doing that.

[Big164]

You're right man. This is the only thing that is relevant:

http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/58/5868/UCOSG00Z/posters/dallas-mavericks-dirk-nowitzki-with-mvp-championship-trophies.jpg

In regards to the trophy in his right hand, go find me a pic of Dr. J, or KG with a similar pic.

In regards to the trophy in his left hand: go find me a pic of Baylor, Barkley, or Malone with a similar pic.
This post reeks of TRUTH

I'll give Dr J a pass for playing in the aba but the others have no excuse.

[D.J.]

D.J., what's the case for Bob Pettit on the all-time power forwards list? Is there a debate with Pettit against these guys:

Duncan? Barkley? Malone? Dirk? Garnett?


It's hard to rank Pettit because his game wasn't publicized as much as guys like Russell, Cousy, and Wilt. Going purely by numbers and accomplishments, he's probably #2 after Duncan but we can't rank him like we can with Russell and Wilt.

[D.J.]

Apparently every post I've made in this thread has been spot on because one of you pu**ies left a rep without your name:


"Yer a monkey dix c0ck ring"

[creepingdeath]

Apparently every post I've made in this thread has been spot on because one of you pu**ies left a rep without your name:


"Yer a monkey dix c0ck ring"
Oh, that was me, ****. Come at me, bro.

Actually, I wrote something else.

[greensborohill]

Now I know not to take you seriously. Horry > Jordan.


Does Horry have a Finals MVP or an NBA MVP for that matter? Read my posts before you respond, dummy.

[D.J.]

Does Horry have a Finals MVP or an NBA MVP for that matter? Read my posts before you respond, dummy.


You said:



This is the only thing that is relevant


Your words. Post read, dummy.

[greensborohill]

Apparently every post I've made in this thread has been spot on because one of you pu**ies left a rep without your name:


"Yer a monkey dix c0ck ring"


that's pretty funny!!

[greensborohill]

You said:





Your words. Post read, dummy.

Again, read the effing post. I make reference to the MVP trophy AND the LOB trophy. Does Horry have any Bill Russell Finals MVP trophy's?

[D.J.]

Again, read the effing post. I make reference to the MVP trophy AND the LOB trophy. Does Horry have any Bill Russell Finals MVP trophy's?


Every one of your posts was read. The fact that you resort to insults proves that I'm right in what I said. None of your posts even slightly challenges anything I've presented in my argument.

[Big164]

Funny how he wins 1 ring and you all put him up on this pedestal. Chuck was traded both times. He never left via free agency. Philadelphia was a garbage team when he left and the Suns were a .500 team that struggled to make the playoffs when he left. He had no shot at a ring with Philly after '90 and when he left Phoenix. From '03 until now, the Mavs were a contender most of the time.
Malone.

Oh please, so Barkley just happened to land safely on playoff contenders like KJs Suns and Hakeems Rockets? You make it sound like these were random squads picked out of a hat. Random would be Bucks, Clippers, cavs.

And you killed your own argument bringing up the struggling Suns. The fact that they were struggling while Barkley was near prime with KJ/Finley shows why Chuck doesn't belong in the top 3. Hes too short for the position. extremely Talented player but he is not a winner or a leader.

Dirks roster has shifted several times in the last decade yet he still maintained 50+ win seasons with nearly all of them. And he cashed in what was probably the toughest, deepest playoff pool since the mid 80s.

[greensborohill]

Every one of your posts was read. The fact that you resort to insults proves that I'm right in what I said. None of your posts even slightly challenges anything I've presented in my argument.

Me resorting to insults just means I like insults. You glossing over the part about NBA Finals MVP's (three times now) means that I'm right.

[creepingdeath]

None of your posts even slightly challenges anything I've presented in my argument.
Like saying that Dirk's success is closely connected with his teammates, while the likes of Kevin McHale - who just happened to have played next to Larry f*cking Legend and Parish - seem to have done it on their own, I reckon. :roll:

[RRR3]

Me resorting to insults just means I like insults. You glossing over the part about NBA Finals MVP's (three times now) means that I'm right.
Tony Parker has a final mvp. Is he better than John Stockton? Lol

[D.J.]

Oh please, so Barkley just happened to land safely on playoff contenders like KJs Suns and Hakeems Rockets? You make it sound like these were random squads picked out of a hat. Random would be Bucks, Clippers, cavs.


He didn't demand to be traded to either place. That's where management traded him to. That's just the way it is.



And you killed your own argument bringing up the struggling Suns. The fact that they were struggling while Barkley was near prime with KJ/Finley shows why Chuck doesn't belong in the top 3. Hes too short for the position. extremely Talented player but he is not a winner or a leader.


My argument is very much alive and more valid than anything that has been produced so far. KJ missed 26 games in '96. Finley was putting up 15 PPG and was the only decent player that played in all the games. Unless you consider Wesley Person to be adequate help. And too short position? :roll: Now you just killed YOUR argument. He played for the 4 for the majority of his career. Not a leader or a winner? Looked like a good leader when leading the Sixers to multiple 1st round upsets and an huge overachieving season in '90.



Dirks roster has shifted several times in the last decade yet he still maintained 50+ win seasons with nearly all of them. And he cashed in what was probably the toughest, deepest playoff pool since the mid 80s.


And he always had good supporting casts. You and several others overrate Dirk because of one ring. He'd be back in the 30s if the Heat had won.

[greensborohill]

Tony Parker has a final mvp. Is he better than John Stockton? Lol

I dunno, is Tony Parker the all-time leading assist man? The all-time leading steals guy? Is Tony Parker a 12 time all-star? Was Tony Parker part of the 1992 Dream Team which, arguably, had the top 11 players in the entire NBA at the time? Answer those questions and you'll have your answer.

Using common sense sometimes works wonders!

[RRR3]

I dunno, is Tony Parker the all-time leading assist man? The all-time leading steals guy? Is Tony Parker a 12 time all-star? Was Tony Parker part of the 1992 Dream Team which, arguably, had the top 11 players in the entire NBA at the time? Answer those questions and you'll have your answer.

Using common sense sometimes works wonders!

What would you know about common sense? You act as if dirk is ****ing Jordan.

[D.J.]

Me resorting to insults just means I like insults. You glossing over the part about NBA Finals MVP's (three times now) means that I'm right.


No, it means you lack intelligence and the ability to debate. Your mentality doesn't fly in the real world, kid.



Like saying that Dirk's success is closely connected with his teammates, while the likes of Kevin McHale - who just happened to have played next to Larry f*cking Legend and Parish - seem to have done it on their own, I reckon.


Poor argument. Dirk had Nash, Finley, Terry, Harris, Kidd, Walker, and good role players that understood their role on the team. You take away his teammates, Dirk is having team success similar to Barkley in the '80s and early 90's...40-45 wins with an occasional good year and maybe a first round upset or two.

[L.Kizzle]

Dirk just passed Dolph Schayes. Dirk is around Elvin Hayes level. It could go either way.

[raiderfan19]

Why do people bring up nash like they played together their whole careers? They only played together for 4 years of the 11 that the mavs have won 50.

Like i said before, the difference in my opinions on this vs everyone elses isnt as much my view of dirk as it is my view of doc

[RRR3]

Wow i just got negged apparently because im not infatuated with dirk. Stay classy dirk stans.

[Gotterdammerung]

Let's try breaking it down:

1. The light finally went on for Dirk in year 13 (grasping the secret). Baylor was close way too many times in the finals to not "grasp the secret" but he had Jerry West at all times.
Tie

2. Dirk made more differences on teams than Baylor did (his first 3 years before West were solid, but not great). Dirk is also probably more clutch, more reliable.

3. Dirk is probably the better teammate to play with (he did not monopolize the ball, shot quickly) whereas Elgin was probably the more fascinating player to watch.

4. Neither got traded at any point. The Mavs had a chance to trade Dirk for Shaq in 2004 but they didn't.
Tie

5. Dirk was more dominant for much longer than Baylor was (he had that knee injury in '64, and never averaged 30 ppg again).

6. Elgin's stats are a little deceiving: he was a prototypical forward in a league with very few peers. Nowitzki's stats are reflective of his unique game - bad on boards, low impact defender, but great efficient scorer from 30 feet out.

7. Elgin's two best qualities: invented hang-time, built-in head-fake with a tic. Dirk's: greatest bigman jumpshooter of all time, and greatest German athlete ever.

8. Both were solid teammates - although Elgin slacked off in practices.

9. Elgin was All-NBA 10 years in a row. Dirk, not so much.

10. Elgin was an original pioneer. Dirk is unique in that sense we will see 10 Elgins before we see the next Dirk.

11. Elgin would have had trouble translating to the modern era -- since the forwards are just as big as him (Ron Artest) if not necessarily as athletic, and the shooting range would be more demanding. But he would still average 25 ppg and 10 boards like Charles Barkley. Dirk would've had trouble back in the 60s cuz he would be expected to play inside, no matter his range, and mix it up more often, negating his strengths.

Dirk in a photofinish.

[greensborohill]

He didn't demand to be traded to either place. That's where management traded him to. That's just the way it is.





My argument is very much alive and more valid than anything that has been produced so far. KJ missed 26 games in '96. Finley was putting up 15 PPG and was the only decent player that played in all the games. Unless you consider Wesley Person to be adequate help. And too short position? :roll: Now you just killed YOUR argument. He played for the 4 for the majority of his career. Not a leader or a winner? Looked like a good leader when leading the Sixers to multiple 1st round upsets and an huge overachieving season in '90.





And he always had good supporting casts. You and several others overrate Dirk because of one ring. He'd be back in the 30s if the Heat had won


What's your point? That is the result of winning; being vaulted in the rankings.

Also, in regards to "great supporting casts"

Antoine Wright: no longer in the NBA once he left the Mavs
Brandon Bass: could barely get off Orlando's bench earlier this year
Dampier: Dallas starting center in 2010. . couldn't even make active roster for Heat in Finals
Diop: Yeah . . .
Howard: two or three good years, got content. . . now is not even relevant

Dirk's best mates (while the team has been unquestionably his) have come in the past few years: Kidd, Marion, Butler, w/ Terry the holdover that has endured.

[greensborohill]

Wow i just got negged apparently because im not infatuated with dirk. Stay classy dirk stans.

Not me 'bro, I gave you positive rep a few months back.

[RRR3]

What's your point? That is the result of winning; being vaulted in the rankings.

Also, in regards to "great supporting casts"

Antoine Wright: no longer in the NBA once he left the Mavs
Brandon Bass: could barely get off Orlando's bench earlier this year
Dampier: Dallas starting center in 2010. . couldn't even make active roster for Heat in Finals
Diop: Yeah . . .
Howard: two or three good years, got content. . . now is not even relevant

Dirk's best mates (while the team has been unquestionably his) have come in the past few years: Kidd, Marion, Butler, w/ Terry the holdover that has endured.
The fact remains that you are overrating the shit out of Dirk. You act as if he's a freaking top 10 all-time player or something. :facepalm

[greensborohill]

No, it means you lack intelligence and the ability to debate. Your mentality doesn't fly in the real world, kid.





Poor argument. Dirk had Nash, Finley, Terry, Harris, Kidd, Walker, and good role players that understood their role on the team. You take away his teammates, Dirk is having team success similar to Barkley in the '80s and early 90's...40-45 wins with an occasional good year and maybe a first round upset or two.

Says the guy who just bypassed my point for the 4th time!!

[greensborohill]

The fact remains that you are overrating the shit out of Dirk. You act as if he's a freaking top 10 all-time player or something. :facepalm

Top 20, I love Dirk, but I am reasonable. He can be debated w/ the likes of KG, barkley, and Malone. I don't dare compare him to the likes of Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Russ, Zeke, etc. I have a pretty good understanding of where his place in history is.

[RRR3]

Top 20, I love Dirk, but I am reasonable. He can be debated w/ the likes of KG, barkley, and Malone. I don't dare compare him to the likes of Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Russ, Zeke, etc. I have a pretty good understanding of where his place in history is.

Zeke isn't above Barkley or Malone. Neither is Dirk. KG is better than Dirk, I don't care if Dirk won a ring more recently, the fact remains that when they were both in their primes KG was simply a flat-out better player (which should matter, don't you think?). Also, where's Jordan? You dare to compare Dirk to him, eh? :rolleyes:

[Big164]

DJ hasn't put up one solid argument for Chuck over Dirk. He only has arguments downplaying the importance of winning rings and FMVPs.


Chuck played with Moses, dr J, 2 years removed from a championship, Hakeem Drexler 2 years removed from champions And played in a Jordanless mid 90s with a fantastic supporting cast in the prime of his career. 4 hall of famers, 0 rings. And before you bring up the age of those hof's go check how old Jason Kidd is.

At some point you have to be honest about chuck. He is a gimmick power forward who should've been a 3. He is not a leader of men, and he never won anything in his life. It's cute that he got all those rebounds as a 6'4 fat guy, but it never translated to anything tangible.

[greensborohill]

Zeke isn't above Barkley or Malone. Neither is Dirk. KG is better than Dirk, I don't care if Dirk won a ring more recently, the fact remains that when they were both in their primes KG was simply a flat-out better player (which should matter, don't you think?). Also, where's Jordan? You dare to compare Dirk to him, eh? :rolleyes:


I didn't know I had to list everyone. . . Jordan is obviously #1 or #2. And saying someone is better doesn't make it so. Dirk won his title as the unquestioned #1 player on his team and hence got the Finals MVP. KG cannot make the same statement. KG also missed the playoffs too many years for me to consider him better than Dirk. A supposed transendent talent shouldn't miss the playoffs as much as he did. And Malone? I find it funny how people still ride their jocks despite Malone choking repeatedly in the Finals and/or other big playoff series and never overcoming those short comings.

[greensborohill]

Also RRR, it's hard to take you seriously when you say LeBron is top 25 all-time and imply that Dirk isn't. When Dirk has accomplished more so far.

[RRR3]

Also RRR, it's hard to take you seriously when you say LeBron is top 25 all-time and imply that Dirk isn't. When Dirk has accomplished more so far.
Dirk is top 25 all-time. Are you happy? I never said he wasn't, nor was I trying to imply that.

[greensborohill]

Dirk is top 25 all-time. Are you happy? I never said he wasn't, nor was I trying to imply that.


So why are we arguing?

[RRR3]

So why are we arguing?
Because you were derailing this thread with your obnoxious trolling? That might be it...

[D.J.]

DJ hasn't put up one solid argument for Chuck over Dirk. He only has arguments downplaying the importance of winning rings and FMVPs.


I've put up multiple facts as to why Chuck is above Dirk. You on the other hand, have not listed 1 logical reason as to why Dirk should be aboe Chuck and you have done so in a trolling manner. There's a reason I'm a respected poster here and you're not. Come at me with a solid argument, then we'll talk. And by solid, I mean logical reasoning and no insults. I have no reason to take anything you say seriously. You're a troll to everyone here unless you prove otherwise.

[creepingdeath]

Poor argument. Dirk had Nash, Finley, Terry, Harris, Kidd, Walker, and good role players that understood their role on the team. You take away his teammates, Dirk is having team success similar to Barkley in the '80s and early 90's...40-45 wins with an occasional good year and maybe a first round upset or two.
You're some kind of oracle or what?


Wow i just got negged apparently because im not infatuated with dirk. Stay classy dirk stans.
What would YOU know about class?

[L.Kizzle]

Just for show ... On recent All-Time list done by magazines and the likes, Elgin Baylor has never been outside the top 15 ALL-TIME. He's been as high as 11 twice and 14 once. Yet on a forwards list (not all-time just one position) he's comes in at 13. A top 50 list put together in 2003 by Elliot Kalb had him at 13 All-Time ... Dirk's most recent raking done around All-Star break this past season had him at 55 (which I though was way too low to begin with.) A ranking the season before had him at 37 which sounded about right.


(2011) SLAM top 500
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Magic Johnson
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
8. Tim Duncan
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Jerry West
12. Elgin Baylor
13. Hakeem Olajuwon
14. Bob Petit
15. Moses Malone
16. Julius Erving
17. John Havlicek
18. Karl Malone
19. Isaiah Thomas
20. Charles Barkley
-
55. Dirk Nowitzki


(2010) Bill Simmons top 96
37. Dirk Nowitzki
-
Level 4
24. Scottie Pippen
23. Isiah Thomas
22. Kevin Garnett
21. Bob Cousy
20. LeBron James
19. Charles Barkley
18. Karl Malone
17. Bob Pettit
16. Julius Erving
15. Kobe Bryant
14. Elgin Baylor
13. John Havlicek
The Pantheon
12. Moses Malone
11. Shaquille O

[Fatal9]

^ So what you're saying is that I need to rank players based on what SLAM magazine tells me. And most of those lists are laughable, I wouldn't even expect them from the biggest idiots here. There were barely any good arguments being made for Baylor other than "lol??!? Dirk above Baylor?? wtf?". If you think there's this magical gap by which Baylor is so much better than Dirk by, then I would say it's you who need to start learning how to evaluate players.

[chazzy]

Dirk

[L.Kizzle]

^ So what you're saying is that I need to rank players based on what SLAM magazine tells me. And most of those lists are laughable, I wouldn't even expect them from the biggest idiots here. There were barely any good arguments being made for Baylor other than "lol??!? Dirk above Baylor?? wtf?". If you think there's this magical gap by which Baylor is so much better than Dirk by, then I would say it's you who need to start learning how to evaluate players.
Nope, you have your own mind. I'm just showing what others think of Baylor. And there's obviously a reason why everyone thinks highly of Baylor even without the rings and MVP's and stat leader.

I never said there is a huge gap between them, but I see no way of Dirk being above Baylor.

Also, no one has explained his emergence into the top 15-20 this past season after never being that close without a ring?

[ACCBaller1403]

This is actually very close. Both are supreme scorers, durable players, loved for their loyalty and honesty about the game, and I have a feeling that Dirk will be looked back just as fondly as people do with Hondo.

What separates the two?

Hondo was quite obviously a better defender. That's undeniable. All the talk about whether his defense would translate to today's league is irrelevant. He played world class D against who he was matched up with. Can't ask any more than that.

Dirk is quite obviously the better shooter (although Hondo is no slouch from what I've read/seen). Dirk will go down as one of the best shooters in the history of the game so that counts for something.

They've both had talent but anyone acting like Hondo didn't have more talent on his teams is lying to themselves. Dirk has had talent but it really never fit his weaknesses (interior presence with a slashing guard). Doesn't mean he should get a pass but his success in the post season I feel is always looked at with a much more intense magnifying glass than other all time greats. 2 finals appearances, numerous WCFs appearances, and some truly clutch and tremendous performances should clear him from most playoff criticism. When you're putting up 30+ with 14 boards on ridiculous percentages and you still get bounced...something's wrong with the makeup of the team.

That being said, Hondo clearly deserves credit for being what I think was a better leader. When looked at by his peers, Hondo seems universally appreciated. While Dirk I don't think is a bad leader, it was something he had to grow into and he definitely doesn't command respect around the league like Hondo did.

In the end, Dirk edges out Hondo by a nose. I have a feeling that if you gave Dirk the best defensive big of all time in Russel or one of the best hustling bigs of all time in Cowens you'd see similar success out of Dirk. I just don't see Hondo having the same level of success given Dirk's cast. It really is close though and I'm a little surprised that Hondo or Dirk were this low to begin with. I feel like if Lebron is next then Dirk will have an easier win against him than he is currently having with Hondo.

[Fatal9]

Also, no one has explained his emergence into the top 15-20 this past season after never being that close without a ring?

Dirk was personally in my top 30 (I think a former MVP being ranked 55th, while having the type of career he had before even last year is laughable by the way).

Why has he shot up on a lot of people's list?

- There really isn't that big of a gap of between a player who is ranked 20th and a player who is ranked 30th on any random list. 20 might be a guy like Isiah (though he wouldn't for me) and 30 might be Drexler. 20 might be Barry, 30 might be Pippen. 20 might be Pettit, 30 might be Ewing. Now think about how people would perceive the guys who are "30" relative to the 20 if they won championship as the best player on their team (especially in a way Dirk did).

- If you asked people before why they don't rank Dirk higher, the #1 response you would get is "he can't lead a team to a championship, too soft, he chokes during crucial moments". Dirk came out and answered THE biggest criticisms of his career. Like Kobe winning without Shaq, what it will be like if LeBron finally wins.When you answer the biggest question mark on your career like Dirk did, it's going to matter a lot.

- Most active players don't see the respect they deserve on all-time lists due to the "they will be up there once their career is done" treatment. LeBron...two time MVP...top 10 player at his peak...putting up unbelievable numbers, carrying a team like the Cavs like maybe a couple of players in history could have done...already 7 elite years of never being injured...having accomplished more than people ranked in front of him all the while being better than them...isn't even top 25 according to ISH. Wade isn't good enough to be ranked over Cousy. Lot of people don't realize that some active players in midst of their careers are as good or better (or at the very least have an argument) as a lot of guys they tend to not be ranked over.

[ACCBaller1403]

Nope, you have your own mind. I'm just showing what others think of Baylor. And there's obviously a reason why everyone thinks highly of Baylor even without the rings and MVP's and stat leader.

I never said there is a huge gap between them, but I see no way of Dirk being above Baylor.

Also, no one has explained his emergence into the top 15-20 this past season after never being that close without a ring?


I think with Dirk you had regular season success, an MVP, All-NBA accolades, All-star appearances, etc. The only award he didn't have was a championship trophy of Finals MVP. You could say defensive teams as well but there are many guys in front, around, and slightly behind Dirk that weren't defensive monsters either.

So when Dirk finally vindicates himself, does it on the biggest stage against the so called super team, he's going to be overrated. Look at his run: he went through the champs in a sweep, an up and coming Thunder team (many people were claiming Durant was the MVP this year...and they have Westbrook and a guy people were claiming would shut down Dirk in Ibaka), then snatched the title from the most reviled team in recent history. That will win you fans from the sheer hatred of the Heat above all else. And he had help. A lot of help. I hope noone truly thinks he did it himself. But remember, this is the same help that people thought would help Dirk get another first round, or at best, 2nd round exit.

Like it or hate it, people are always going to be stuck in the now. If Dirk comes back and gets knocked out next season in the first round, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that many of the people voting for him now will no longer have his back. It's just the way it is. Does he deserve to be the #18 player of all time? Probably not. I'm going to back him for as high as I reasonably can though because I feel like he was so underrated years before.

Realistically, I think Dirk is in the top 20-25 and hopefully other see it that way too. That would mean his in the 10-12 range in the top forwards list so I think he's right where he belongs at around #11.

[L.Kizzle]

Dirk was personally in my top 30 (I think a former MVP being ranked 55th, while having the type of career he had before even last year is laughable by the way).
I believe I had Dirk around mid to late 30s. And I also did agree, 55 was way too low.


Why has he shot up on a lot of people's list?

- There really isn't that big of a gap of between a player who is ranked 20th and a player who is ranked 30th on any random list. 20 might be a guy like Isiah (though he wouldn't for me) and 30 might be Drexler. 20 might be Barry, 30 might be Pippen. 20 might be Pettit, 30 might be Ewing. Now think about how people would perceive the guys who are "30" relative to the 20 if they won championship as the best player on their team (especially in a way Dirk did).
I agree, there might not be a big gap between 20 and 30 but we know who was better. There might not be a huge gap between Clyde and Zeke, but we all know and will most have Zeke ahead of Clyde.




- If you asked people before why they don't rank Dirk higher, the #1 response you would get is "he can't lead a team to a championship, too soft, he chokes during crucial moments". Dirk came out and answered THE biggest criticisms of his career. Like Kobe winning without Shaq, what it will be like if LeBron finally wins.When you answer the biggest question mark on your career like Dirk did, it's going to matter a lot.
That might be true, and Dirk deserved to move up. But after just one title? If Elgin Baylor had just one title, I don't think much would change. All the people in the top 15 have titles so it wouldn't really make that much of a difference. Now, if Baylor may have won 3 you're talking about jumping into the top 5 discussion. Same with Dirk, if he wins another or two, he has no choice but to be top 20. But now, what make him different from Dolph Scyahes? On the other hand, Elgin was the LeBron of his day except didn't disappear in the Finals (during his prime might I add ...)

Dirk has one title, Dave Cowens and Willis Reed have two titles, yet he's left them behind (they also have an MVP award.) Di



- Most active players don't see the respect they deserve on all-time lists due to the "they will be up there once their career is done" treatment. LeBron...two time MVP...top 10 player at his peak...putting up unbelievable numbers, carrying a team like the Cavs like maybe a couple of players in history could have done...already 7 elite years of never being injured...having accomplished more than people ranked in front of him all the while being better than them...isn't even top 25 according to ISH. Wade isn't good enough to be ranked over Cousy. Lot of people don't realize that some active players in midst of their careers are as good or better (or at the very least have an argument) as a lot of guys they tend to not be ranked over.
This is true about active players. And you might have just answered your own question about LeBron with Dirk and why he wasn't considered high on the list.

[Duncan21formvp]

Give me Dirk.

[brain drain]

Those two guys are not even on the same level.

Just jook at advanced stats:

PER:
Hondo's best PER's are around 20. Dirk's around 27-28.
Dirk's worst playoff PER would be Hondo's 3rd best.


Win Shares / 48 (playoffs):
Hondo's best year: around .208 or so.
Dirk? .275

Again, that's a completely different level.

Everything about Hondo's adv. stats screams "solid 2nd option, great 3rd option".

How anybody can take that guy over Dirk is beyond me.

[Gotterdammerung]

Those two guys are not even on the same level.

Just jook at advanced stats:

PER:
Hondo's best PER's are around 20. Dirk's around 27-28.
Dirk's worst playoff PER would be Hondo's 3rd best.


Win Shares / 48 (playoffs):
Hondo's best year: around .208 or so.
Dirk? .275

Again, that's a completely different level.

Everything about Hondo's adv. stats screams "solid 2nd option, great 3rd option".

How anybody can take that guy over Dirk is beyond me.
Wrong thread, genius. :hammerhead:

[brain drain]

Wrong thread, genius. :hammerhead:

OK, in that case here's the playoff PER comparison for Baylor - Nowitzki:

Baylor playoff PER:
Top 1 season: 28.0
Top 5 seasons: 25.94
top 10 seasons: 22.2


Nowitzki plaoff PER:
Top 1 season: 28.4
Top 5 seasons: 27.46
top 10 seasons: 25.4

So, it's a much better comparison than Nowitzki - Hondo, and they had a similar peak but Dirk's peak was clearly longer.

So it's Dirk for putting in more seasons close to his peak level.