ISH's #19 Player of Alltime

[Deuce Bigalow]

#1: Michael Jordan (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237455)
#2: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237815)
#3: Bill Russell (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=237918)
#4: Magic Johnson (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238016)
#5: Wilt Chamberlain (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238103)
#6: Larry Bird (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238181)
#7: Shaquille O'Neal (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238203)
#8: Tim Duncan (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238309)
#9: Hakeem Olajuwon (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238385)
#10: Kobe Bryant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238486)
#11: Jerry West (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238569)
#12: Oscar Robertson (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238681)
#13: Moses Malone (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238749)
#14: Julius Erving (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238814)
#15: Charles Barkley (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238859)
#16: Karl Malone (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238954)
#17: Kevin Garnett (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239053)
#18: Dirk Nowitzki (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239130)

-----------------------------------------------
ISH's #18 Player of Alltime - Dirk Nowitzki

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/images/photos/001/247/275/115755617_crop_650x440.jpg
----------------------------------------------

Candidates:
George Mikan
Bob Pettit
Elgin Baylor
John Havlicek
Isiah Thomas
Rick Barry
David Robinson
Dwyane Wade
Lebron James
Patrick Ewing
Scottie Pippen
John Stockton
Steve Nash
Elvin Hayes
Allen Iverson
Clyde Drexler
Bob Cousy
Jason Kidd
Pete Maravich
Gary Payton

[raiderfan19]

Gotta bedavid robinson

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

I'll be damned. Showtime must be rolling over in his grave.

[MichaelCheazley]

Isiah thomas.

[rmt]

David Robinson

[Collie]

BOB PETTIT

It would be a goddamn travesty if a two time MVP and a champion won't make the cut of top 20.

[32Dayz]

Dwyane Wade

http://i42.tinypic.com/15xmgcp.gif

[jacobgoindum]

George Mikan

* 5

[Richesly]

Bob Pettit..

[Smoke117]

David Robinson even this low shows what ****ing children you all are and how ****ing underrated he is. Tim Duncan at his BEST WAS NEVER CLOSE TO AS GOOD AS DAVID ROBINSON AT HIS BEST. Jesus ****ing christ I've even saw knuckle ****ing heads say Tim Duncan was a better defensive player than David Robinson. :facepalm The Tim Duncan above Hakeem Olajuwon alone makes this whole ****ing list moot and idiotic. This is why we have the darwin awards, for 75% of the population of this board. You don't deserve to even live. I'm sure a lot of you are too stupid to even know who Charles Darwin is so wikipedia my friends/idiots.

[SuperPippen]

David Robinson even this low shows what ****ing children you all are and how ****ing underrated he is. Tim Duncan at his BEST WAS NEVER CLOSE TO AS GOOD AS DAVID ROBINSON AT HIS BEST. Jesus ****ing christ I've even saw knuckle ****ing heads say Tim Duncan was a better defensive player than David Robinson. :facepalm The Tim Duncan above Hakeem Olajuwon alone makes this whole ****ing list moot and idiotic. This is why we have the darwin awards, for 75% of the population of this board. You don't deserve to even live. I'm sure a lot of you are too stupid to even know who Charles Darwin is so wikipedia my friends/idiots.

U MAD




Anyway, I vote Elgin Baylor.

[Smoke117]

U MAD




Anyway, I vote Elgin Baylor.

Not mad at all and to be called out by a fellow Scottie Pippen fan? You filthy ****ing c.unt

[MichaelCheazley]

David Robinson even this low shows what ****ing children you all are and how ****ing underrated he is. Tim Duncan at his BEST WAS NEVER CLOSE TO AS GOOD AS DAVID ROBINSON AT HIS BEST. Jesus ****ing christ I've even saw knuckle ****ing heads say Tim Duncan was a better defensive player than David Robinson. :facepalm The Tim Duncan above Hakeem Olajuwon alone makes this whole ****ing list moot and idiotic. This is why we have the darwin awards, for 75% of the population of this board. You don't deserve to even live. I'm sure a lot of you are too stupid to even know who Charles Darwin is so wikipedia my friends/idiots.


Calm down. You're so butthurt. Who is he rated lower than that he is sooo much better than? Instead of swearing and being proud that you know who darwin(acting like thats something special) is say who is rated too high and argue. Do not swear like an uneducated tool. Tim Duncan over Hakeem can be due to his championships. You need to calm down its an opinion based list which is fairly accurate considering the posters here.

[SuperPippen]

Not mad at all and to be called out by a fellow Scottie Pippen fan? You filthy ****ing c.unt

Yea, U definitely MAD.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/newsfeed/000/196/748/358qda.jpg



Get over yourself.

[Smoke117]

Calm down. You're so butthurt. Who is he rated lower than that he is sooo much better than? Instead of swearing and being proud that you know who darwin(acting like thats something special) is say who is rated too high and argue. Do not swear like an uneducated tool. Tim Duncan over Hakeem can be due to his championships. You need to calm down its an opinion based list which is fairly accurate considering the posters here.

Give me a break. You actually seem to be in the 25% of posters here who are not idiots. Frankly when you go to the park and you see a duck...what do you call it? I call it a duck. When I meet someone who is an idiot...I call him an idiot. They are idiots and deserved to be called idiots, period.

[Smoke117]

Yea, U definitely MAD.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/kym-assets/photos/images/newsfeed/000/196/748/358qda.jpg



Get over yourself.


It's not really mad when you've had over 12 or so shots of whisky inside you, it's just bad judgement and babbling.

[Smoke117]

Calm down. You're so butthurt. Who is he rated lower than that he is sooo much better than? Instead of swearing and being proud that you know who darwin(acting like thats something special) is say who is rated too high and argue. Do not swear like an uneducated tool. Tim Duncan over Hakeem can be due to his championships. You need to calm down its an opinion based list which is fairly accurate considering the posters here.

That's ****ing horse shit btw. Who did Hakeem lead to the championships in 94...I sure as **** know it was a lot worse team than any god damn team Tim Duncan ever did so don't bring up championships here. Tim Duncan played with better players, period. That is no god damn mystery. The most idiot and hilarious argument i've heard is how mario elie used to hit some clutch shots...yeah because mario elie hitting that occasional clutch shot was so much more important than manu ginobili a star ****ing player dropping 20 or so points in playoff games game in game out right? Some of you kids should have NO opinions because it only goes back to 2000 and not before that. You know horse shit.

[32Dayz]

It's not really mad when you've had over 12 or so shots of whisky inside you, it's just bad judgement and babbling.

Weed > Whiskey

Weed + Whiskey >>>

:applause:

[Legends66NBA7]

Weed > Whiskey

Weed + Whiskey >>>

:applause:

Did you read my PM ?

[32Dayz]

That's ****ing horse shit btw. Who did Hakeem lead to the championships in 94...I sure as **** know it was a lot worse team than any god damn team Tim Duncan ever did so don't bring up championships here. Tim Duncan played with better players, period. That is no god damn mystery.

That 94 team team Hakeem had was pretty weak but he still had a few solid/elite roleplayers.

Hakeems 95 team was stacked as hell.

[Smoke117]

btw what makes me mad is not any of this but the fact that I have to wake up at 9am tomorrow and get up on teh god damn roof tomorrow to help my dad with some shit because its going to rain. THAT IS SOMETHING YOU GET MAD ABOUT especially when you are going to have an epic hangover and you have a phobia about heights to begin with NOT arguing with some 14 year old little **** nuts on the internet. So the massive headache, nauseas and fear of heights tomorrow makes me more angry than either of you idiots could. So stop sucking your ***** and thinking you are so special.

[32Dayz]

Did you read my PM ?

Yea bro, just pm'ed you back.

[Tha Catalyst]

Mikan should be over Dirk no matter what way people twist the criteria, lucky we have a bunch of 13 year olds on this site who have watched basketball for 2 years and have voted Dirk/Garnett over Mikan.

[MichaelCheazley]

That's ****ing horse shit btw. Who did Hakeem lead to the championships in 94...I sure as **** know it was a lot worse team than any god damn team Tim Duncan ever did so don't bring up championships here. Tim Duncan played with better players, period. That is no god damn mystery. The most idiot and hilarious argument i've heard is how mario elie used to hit some clutch shots...yeah because mario elie hitting that occasional clutch shot was so much more important than manu ginobili a star ****ing player dropping 20 or so points in playoff games game in game out right? Some of you kids should have NO opinions because it only goes back to 2000 and not before that. You know horse shit.

1. I know my shit and have been watching the nba before 2000.
2. That is not MY argument thats and example of an argument that can be made. It's opinion.
3. If the quality of supporting cast is in question why isnt rick barry ranked over everyone?Duncan and Olajuwon's impact on the league was similar. IF you think Duncan shouldnt be in the same sentence your delusional.
4. Its opinion. Respect others and yours will be respected as well. If you dont agree argue why in a civil matter.

[L8kersfan222]

D-Rob

[Smoke117]

1. I know my shit and have been watching the nba before 2000.
2. That is not MY argument thats and example of an argument that can be made. It's opinion.
3. If the quality of supporting cast is in question why isnt rick barry ranked over everyone?Duncan and Olajuwon's impact on the league was similar. IF you think Duncan shouldnt be in the same sentence your delusional.
4. Its opinion. Respect others and yours will be respected as well. If you dont agree argue why in a civil matter.

respect is earned not freely given.

[D-Wade316]

Mikan should be over Dirk no matter what way people twist the criteria, lucky we have a bunch of 13 year olds on this site who have watched basketball for 2 years and have voted Dirk/Garnett over Mikan.
Isn't their agenda obvious? Majority of ISH only knows basketball since 2000.

[DaPerceive]

David Robinson, I would vote D. Wade but not many people would be with me.

[Tha Catalyst]

Isn't their agenda obvious? Majority of ISH only knows basketball since 2000.
Disgusting isn't it, every achievement Dirk has Mikan has done more. He is better statistically, in individual achievements and team accomplishments. He was better, it's as close to a fact as an opinion can be. I want to see if Rose/Durant win a championship and are catapulted into top 25 immediately while people like say Isiah become an afterthought. No saying Dirk can't end in the top 20 but he isn't there now.

[D-Wade316]

Disgusting isn't it, every achievement Dirk has Mikan has done more. He is better statistically, in individual achievements and team accomplishments. He was better, it's as close to a fact as an opinion can be. I want to see if Rose/Durant win a championship and are catapulted into top 25 immediately while people like say Isiah become an afterthought. No saying Dirk can't end in the top 20 but he isn't there now.
Yeah. Players from the 50s to the 80s are virulently disrespected here. E.g. Mikan, Cousy, Baylor, Pettit. The guys I mentioned SHOULD BE OVER DIRK. Period.

[MichaelCheazley]

Yeah. Players from the 50s to the 80s are virulently disrespected here. E.g. Mikan, Cousy, Baylor, Pettit. The guys I mentioned SHOULD BE OVER DIRK. Period.
Dude you havent even watched them players.

[Tha Catalyst]

Yeah. Players from the 50s to the 80s are virulently disrespected here. E.g. Mikan, Cousy, Baylor, Pettit. The guys I mentioned SHOULD BE OVER DIRK. Period.
:cheers: undoubtedly

[Tha Catalyst]

Dude you havent even watched them players.
While it is true, we also see Wilt/Russell up in the rankings, not many on this site can honestly say they have watched them extensively, sometimes achievements is all you have to go by.

[D-Wade316]

Dude you havent even watched them players.
The same goes for Kareem, Russell, Wilt, etc. Since you never saw them play, they shouldn't be even in your top 10.

[MichaelCheazley]

The same goes for Kareem, Russell, Wilt, etc. Since you never saw them play, they shouldn't be even in your top 10.

Not the case. Ive watched as much tape on them as possible. And you know my age?

[The Macho Man]

Lebron can eat a dick, but I feel like he's better than Dirk:confusedshrug:

Not in the Finals of course...

[bdreason]

This list took a horrible turn after the top 10.


I vote for Isiah Thomas. The 2nd best PG of all-time.

[chazzy]

It's not really mad when you've had over 12 or so shots of whisky inside you
http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme-240x180.png

[Legends66NBA7]

Not the case. Ive watched as much tape on them as possible. And you know my age?

I think he was confusing watching them "live" from watching them on tape.

[Dragonyeuw]

David Robinson

[HYJ]

John Havlicek

8

[ukplayer4]

waaaayyyyy too high for dirk. seriously wtf?

[Smoke117]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/watch-out-we-got-a-badass-over-here-meme-240x180.png

haha that amusing in the early years before you become an alcoholic. That just makes you a ****ing asshole wiht your comment by now, prick. Not to mention when a self proclaimed drunk **** knows a lot more about what he's talking about than you, shit head

[coin24]

The top 10 was pretty right, its gone down the shitter since though :facepalm

Not sure how anyone seriously rates Garnett, Dirk and Malone over David Robinson, Pippen, Isiah Thomas etc...

Its hard to say this after his finals meltdown, but even Lebron should be above Dirk:confusedshrug:



Ill vote for The Admiral this time:pimp:

[bballnoob1192]

this list got dumped on when people put dirk this high up on the chart. im not even a dirk hater but this ranking for dirk is only because of how recent he won his championship. in about three years im pretty sure people wont have him in top 20. cuz he prolly wont win another title, and then he'll just be forgotten

[bballnoob1192]

anyways im voting for elgin baylor

[RobertdeMeijer]

John Havlicek

[nayte]

I'm goin to go with Robinson too.Yeah he got schooled by Hakeem once(I think) but overall the dude had a farking awesome career.

[RRR3]

The admiral. Dirk Isn't better than him.

[raiderfan19]

The admiral. Dirk Isn't better than him.
Dirk is different than him. The more natural comparison is kg and drob is better than kg

[ClutchBucketz]

The Admiral

[Jan95]

David Robinson.

[miles berg]

Isiah Thomas, no doubt, one of the greats.

[SpecialQue]

Mikan.

[Charlie Sheen]

this list got dumped on when people put dirk this high up on the chart. im not even a dirk hater but this ranking for dirk is only because of how recent he won his championship. in about three years im pretty sure people wont have him in top 20. cuz he prolly wont win another title, and then he'll just be forgotten

back in 2008 buncha posters had pierce in the top 20... dirk is better than pierce but u get the point

[Charlie Sheen]

2x mvp. career averages 27/7/7. rank#19 should be taking enough of a hit for having half a career ahead of him and falling short of championship

lebron

[ShaqAttack3234]

2x mvp. career averages 27/7/7. rank#19 should be taking enough of a hit for having half a career ahead of him and falling short of championship

lebron

Agreed, not that it matters, but I vote for Lebron once again.

He's ending up below players who clearly weren't as good, several of which didn't have any more team success in their prime and now we'll see some players whose primes didn't even last more than a year or 2 longer and were worse playoff performers(Robinson) get ranked over him.

[pegasus]

Agreed, not that it matters, but I vote for Lebron once again.

He's ending up below players who clearly weren't as good, several of which didn't have any more team success in their prime and now we'll see some players whose primes didn't even last more than a year or 2 longer and were worse playoff performers(Robinson) get ranked over him.

He's got all the time in the world to move up the ladder. I think it is fair to keep him out of the top-20 for now.

[ShaqAttack3234]

He's got all the time in the world to move up the ladder. I think it is fair to keep him out of the top-20 for now.

Well, we've probably seen his peak(2009), and we've seen him as an elite player for 7 full seasons('05-'11). David Robinson only had 7 seasons before his injury in '96-'97. So if longevity is the issue then I don't understand why Robinson is probably going to be voted ahead of him.

I can understand Malone based on his freakish longevity, though personally I don't agree with ranking a guy ahead when his longevity didn't help him accomplish anymore and his peak was clearly inferior.

[Fatal9]

LeBron

[dynasty1978]

Lebron James

[D-Wade316]

Not the case. Ive watched as much tape on them as possible. And you know my age?
Not enough that you have enough wisdom than others who watched them when they were young.

[pauk]

Lebron James.... for **** sake... :facepalm

[G.O.A.T]

I have LeBron just outside the top 30. The only players he is behind are the ones who won titles as an alpha and were MVP candidates, the greatest complimentary players ever and those who had comparable peaks and greater peak/prime longevity.

19 is too high in my opinion, but if I consider that for most of you Pettit, Baylor, Mikan are not being considered as equals and that for many of you Isiah, Rick Barry, Frazier, Cousy, Hondo, Cowens and Reed are flawed or incomplete players and that matters more than their results to you, then this is pretty close to where he should be.

I don't see how you can have LeBron above someone like Walton though. His seven prime seasons is three fewer than anyone else ranked above him and if his career ended today his legacy would be that of a loser, an immature talent who never reached his potential because of the decisions he made and the people who influenced them. Walton had a greater peak, actually won a title and has the MVP. Walton achieved more in less time, if peak is such a strong emphasis, how can you ignore this guy?

[ShaqAttack3234]

I don't see how you can have LeBron above someone like Walton though. His seven prime seasons is three fewer than anyone else ranked above him and if his career ended today his legacy would be that of a loser, an immature talent who never reached his potential because of the decisions he made and the people who influenced them. Walton had a greater peak, actually won a title and has the MVP. Walton achieved more in less time, if peak is such a strong emphasis, how can you ignore this guy?

Walton is an extreme example and because of this, he's difficult to rank fairly. He played in the NBA from '75-'87 yet Lebron has played in 159 more regular season games and 43 more playoff games.

Walton had a total of 1 healthy prime season(and I'm counting a season that he missed 17 games in as healthy) while Lebron has been healthy his entire 8 year career.

'77 and '78(before the injury) do show how good Walton was, and I rank both of their peaks as borderline top 10 peaks, but he just didn't play enough to rank past a certain point. Though I do think he has come to be ranked pretty highly because so few players have been as good as Walton at his best.

Lebron has 2 seasons where he was the best player in the league, imo, arguably 3, and has been a top 3-5 player in the league for a solid 6 seasons now.

[G.O.A.T]

Lebron has 2 seasons where he was the best player in the league, imo, arguably 3, and has been a top 3-5 player in the league for a solid 6 seasons now.

Focusing just on this.

Walton - 2 seasons arguably best player in the league, 1 MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 1 Title.

James - 3 seasons arguably best player in the league, 2 MVP's, 5-6 years top five player.



To me that's the only major difference, and that's by far the least important of the qualifications listed.

I have Walton ahead of James because I have no doubt I'd rather have Walton's career than James career. Either way I've been the best player in the world and if I'm Walton I've reached the pinnacle. If I'm James (and the career is over) I've failed, and I'm not even sure how. I've proven I am one of the greatest talents to ever play the game, but I never displayed the intangible traits needed to be a Champion.

[GOATofGOATS]

I vote for D-Rob.

[Harison]

Robinson

[alenleomessi]

Lebron

[RRR3]

Focusing just on this.

Walton - 2 seasons arguably best player in the league, 1 MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 1 Title.

James - 3 seasons arguably best player in the league, 2 MVP's, 5-6 years top five player.



To me that's the only major difference, and that's by far the least important of the qualifications listed.

I have Walton ahead of James because I have no doubt I'd rather have Walton's career than James career. Either way I've been the best player in the world and if I'm Walton I've reached the pinnacle. If I'm James (and the career is over) I've failed, and I'm not even sure how. I've proven I am one of the greatest talents to ever play the game, but I never displayed the intangible traits needed to be a Champion.

Bill Walton over LeBron :roll: :roll: :roll: Get the **** out of here with that bullshit. If you think Bill Walton is anywhere close to top 20, let alone top 50, you might as well put T-Mac and Grant Hill up there as well. "b-b-b-b-b-but Walton COULD have been better if he didn't get hurt so much!" :roll:

[JMT]

Boy, this list really took an awful turn at Kevin Garnett.

If LeBron James makes the Top 30 even on a forum populated by 17 year olds, the whole thing should be shut down. And by "thing" I mean the internet.

Voting in this thread has gotten pointless. Too bad.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Boy, this list really took an awful turn at Kevin Garnett.

If LeBron James makes the Top 30 even on a forum populated by 17 year olds, the whole thing should be shut down. And by "thing" I mean the internet.

Voting in this thread has gotten pointless. Too bad.

basically everything in life people will have different opinions, every poll has differing opinions

[L8kersfan222]

Boy, this list really took an awful turn at Kevin Garnett.

If LeBron James makes the Top 30 even on a forum populated by 17 year olds, the whole thing should be shut down. And by "thing" I mean the internet.

Voting in this thread has gotten pointless. Too bad.
lebron fans fvckin it up

[JMT]

basically everything in life people will have different opinions, every poll has differing opinions

Understood. This is handicapped by the fact that the majority of voters haven't been watching basketball for even 20 years, and even fewer understand the game enough to have a legitimate opinion.

Great concept. Applaud you for the hard work and sticking with it. But limited frame of reference has turned this one into an exercise in futility.

:cheers:

[WillC]

Elgin Baylor.

It's getting ridiculous now.

[D-Wade316]

Elgin Baylor.

It's getting ridiculous now.
It has been since the battle for the #4 spot.

[WillC]

It has been since the battle for the #4 spot.

The top 14 is actually very good.

Then the rankings suddenly become too focussed on the present rather than the past. KG, Barkley, Dirk and Malone all above Baylor? Hmmmm.

Meanwhile, barely any mention of Ricky Barry, John Havlicek or George Mikan... yet loads of people voting for LeBron and David Robinson.

Bizarre.

[D-Wade316]

The top 14 is actually very good.

Then the rankings suddenly become too focussed on the present rather than the past. KG, Barkley, Dirk and Malone all above Baylor? Hmmmm.

Meanwhile, barely any mention of Ricky Barry, John Havlicek or George Mikan... yet loads of people voting for LeBron and David Robinson.

Bizarre.
Nah. The list, as a whole, is ****ed up.

Too much focus on present players. They are all forgetting names like Mikan(led his team to 6 championships), Pettit(only player to led a team defeating Boston in a playoff series), Cousy(innovator of the pg position), etc.

[WillC]

Nah. The list, as a whole, is ****ed up.

Too much focus on present players. They are all forgetting names like Mikan(led his team to 6 championships), Pettit(only player to led a team defeating Boston in a playoff series), Cousy(innovator of the pg position), etc.

Agreed.

I have a huge amount of respect for PFs like Malone, KG, etc.... but above Pettit? Nah, he was the greatest player of his era along with Mikan.

[PistonsFan#21]

Lebron James

[SpecialQue]

It's just the whole mentality of "I didn't see it, therefore it couldn't have been that good." Only something extreme like 11 rings or a 100 point game will get really old players respect, or if they're just too iconic that you can't ignore them (like West). Other players like Mikan, Baylor, Cousy, Pettit, Hondo, and Barry might as well have never played.

You seriously can't expect to get decent results from a bunch of kids. Hell, look at Bill Simmons book and how low he has Mikan. The douche even admits that he only has him up that high because if he didn't old people would complain. Under his criteria, Russell shouldn't be as high as he has him, but Simmons would never put him lower because he's a Celtic.

[Duncan21formvp]

David Robinson

[D-Wade316]

Agreed.

I have a huge amount of respect for PFs like Malone, KG, etc.... but above Pettit? Nah, he was the greatest player of his era along with Mikan.
The thing is, they based it on awards. And when you consider that Pettit and Mikan had better resumes(lets not forget that there were fewer awards back then. all-defensive teams, dpoy, etc. didn't exist back then), they are being hypocritical.

[D-Wade316]

It's just the whole mentality of "I didn't see it, therefore it couldn't have been that good." Only something extreme like 11 rings or a 100 point game will get really old players respect, or if they're just too iconic that you can't ignore them (like West). Other players like Mikan, Baylor, Cousy, Pettit, Hondo, and Barry might as well have never played.

You seriously can't expect to get decent results from a bunch of kids. Hell, look at Bill Simmons book and how low he has Mikan. The douche even admits that he only has him up that high because if he didn't old people would complain. Under his criteria, Russell shouldn't be as high as he has him, but Simmons would never put him lower because he's a Celtic.
This.

[BlackJoker23]

It's just the whole mentality of "I didn't see it, therefore it couldn't have been that good." Only something extreme like 11 rings or a 100 point game will get really old players respect, or if they're just too iconic that you can't ignore them (like West). Other players like Mikan, Baylor, Cousy, Pettit, Hondo, and Barry might as well have never played.

You seriously can't expect to get decent results from a bunch of kids. Hell, look at Bill Simmons book and how low he has Mikan. The douche even admits that he only has him up that high because if he didn't old people would complain. Under his criteria, Russell shouldn't be as high as he has him, but Simmons would never put him lower because he's a Celtic.
yup u mad.

[Deuce Bigalow]

It's just the whole mentality of "I didn't see it, therefore it couldn't have been that good." Only something extreme like 11 rings or a 100 point game will get really old players respect, or if they're just too iconic that you can't ignore them (like West). Other players like Mikan, Baylor, Cousy, Pettit, Hondo, and Barry might as well have never played.

You seriously can't expect to get decent results from a bunch of kids. Hell, look at Bill Simmons book and how low he has Mikan. The douche even admits that he only has him up that high because if he didn't old people would complain. Under his criteria, Russell shouldn't be as high as he has him, but Simmons would never put him lower because he's a Celtic.

If people are going to put Russell in the top 3, then Mikan has to atleast be in the top 20, Mikan was the "Russell" of his era, 5 championships (7 total with 2 other titles from other leagues), and he was the first "superstar"
And If people say, "oh he played in a weak era" well then why do you have Russell in the top 3?

[pegasus]

Robinson.

[BlackJoker23]

current david robinson in a wheelchair>prime mikan

[winwin]

Isiah Thomas

[Deuce Bigalow]

current david robinson in a wheelchair>prime mikan

He dominated the era he played in, and you can only judge what he did in his era because that is when he played

[BlackJoker23]

He dominated the era he played in, and you can only judge what he did in his era because that is when he played
well james naismith must be #1 then cuz he invented basketball and at the time nobody knew about the sport or dominated the sport like him.

[D-Wade316]

If people are going to put Russell in the top 3, then Mikan has to atleast be in the top 20, Mikan was the "Russell" of his era, 5 championships (7 total with 2 other titles from other leagues), and he was the first "superstar"
And If people say, "oh he played in a weak era" well then why do you have Russell in the top 3?
Why not top 10? He set the standard for the giants that followed on his footsteps. He absolutely dominated an era(rule changes, widening of the key, 24-second shot clock). His stats can't be compared today, because the NBA was vastly different back then. Can any modern player say that they had such an impact on the game? None.

Mikan should be in the top-10. It is the fan's fault that they know nothing about him.

[Deuce Bigalow]

well james naismith must be #1 then cuz he invented basketball and at the time nobody knew about the sport or dominated the sport like him.

he is not a player

[Deuce Bigalow]

Why not top 10? He set the standard for the giants that followed on his footsteps. He absolutely dominated an era(rule changes, widening of the key, 24-second shot clock). His stats can't be compared today, because the NBA was vastly different back then. Can any modern player say that they had such an impact on the game? None.

Mikan should be in the top-10. It is the fan's fault that they know nothing about him.

Top 10? over who?
top 15 is where he should be

[Deuce Bigalow]

Mikan, Pettit, and Baylor are top 20 players, too bad in this poll they wont be

[DaPerceive]

he is not a player
:oldlol:

[FF1]

David Robinson

[JMT]

well james naismith must be #1 then cuz he invented basketball and at the time nobody knew about the sport or dominated the sport like him.


You were just voted unanimously to the #1 spot on the ISH Dumbest Posts of All Time

[JMT]

Mikan, Pettit, and Baylor are top 20 players, too bad in this poll they wont be

:cheers:

[ShaqAttack3234]

Focusing just on this.

Walton - 2 seasons arguably best player in the league, 1 MVP, 1 Finals MVP, 1 Title.

James - 3 seasons arguably best player in the league, 2 MVP's, 5-6 years top five player.



To me that's the only major difference, and that's by far the least important of the qualifications listed.

I have Walton ahead of James because I have no doubt I'd rather have Walton's career than James career. Either way I've been the best player in the world and if I'm Walton I've reached the pinnacle. If I'm James (and the career is over) I've failed, and I'm not even sure how. I've proven I am one of the greatest talents to ever play the game, but I never displayed the intangible traits needed to be a Champion.

Walton did achieve the ultimate accomplishment in a prime that lasted a bit less than 2 seasons, which is pretty amazing, don't get me wrong. You know how highly I regard Walton's play in '77 and '78 from past discussions we've had on him.

But while I look at prime first, and to some extent, peak, longevity still does matter to some degree with me, especially when talking about a player who was elite for 2 seasons. That's just really short compared to the other players in this range. But because of how good he was in that short time, I have no problem with Walton being in the top 20-30 range.

When looking at these players, I mainly look at their absolute prime. For example, '90-'93 Jordan, '84-'88 Bird, '87-'91 Magic, '98-'02 Shaq, '88-'93 Barkley, '93-'96 Hakeem ect. Or extended prime with examples being '01-'10 Kobe, '95-'03 Shaq ect.

Peak season is something I consider, but 1 season alone only goes so far.

When you think about 3 seasons as arguably the best player in the league, the list is extremely short. I mean from the shot clock era on in the NBA, we'd be left with Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and maybe Pettit, Moses, Magic and Hakeem. Maybe I'm leaving out 1 or 2 guys, but that's a really short list. Of course, there'd be a few pre-shot clock players you could throw in there, but you'd still be talking about probably 15 players or less.

It'd take longer to look at players who have been top 5 for 6 seasons, and while it'd be a longer list, it'd still put Lebron in really elite company.

I have my doubts about Lebron leading a team to a title after the last 2 seasons, but I can't completely put aside 2009 where he was playing about as well as you can, even in the playoffs. 2010(before those final 3 games vs Boston), how much better he made the Cavs in '09 and '10 than they should've been and how good of an all around player he's become whether it's scoring, passing and now, defense.

I'm not even a fan, but his ability as a basketball player just amazes me.

[D-Wade316]

:blah :blah :blah
Mikan's 5 rings as alpha>Kobe's 2(if not 1) as alpha
Mikan's 5 rings as alpha>Olajuwon's 2 as alpha
Mikan's 5 rings as alpha>Bird's 2 as alpha

[Deuce Bigalow]

Mikan's 5 rings as alpha>Kobe's 2(if not 1) as alpha
Mikan's 5 rings as alpha>Olajuwon's 2 as alpha
Mikan's 5 rings as alpha>Bird's 2 as alpha

Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan
better than them too? :rolleyes:

Did you really just put "If not 1" :facepalm
You and 34dayz :facepalm

[D-Wade316]

Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan
better than them too? :rolleyes:
Did I said that?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Did I said that?

5 > 2-3 for Magic, 2-3 for Kareem, 3 for shaq, 4 for duncan

so yes you did

[D-Wade316]

5 > 2-3 for Magic, 2-3 for Kareem, 3 for shaq, 4 for duncan

so yes you did
Not really. You also have to factor in prime/peak, impact on the game, and historical relevance, which I believe Mikan is greater than that of Kobe, Hakeem, Bird.

[L8kersfan222]

D-Wade316 proven idiot :facepalm

[D-Wade316]

D-Wade316 proven idiot :facepalm
No one cares about your opinion.

[L8kersfan222]

No one cares about your opinion.
Don't make me whip out your "are you serious bro? :rockon: " post and ether you from this thread.

[Legends66NBA7]

This list should have had the following criteria to discuss:

-Accomplishments
-Accolades
-Basketball Ability
-Context
-Impact
-Originality
-Production
-Winning

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not really. You also have to factor in prime/peak, impact on the game, and historical relevance, which I believe Mikan is greater than that of Kobe, Hakeem, Bird.

No, we all know your agenda
Mikan is not better than Kobe, Bird, and Hakeem

[Round Mound]

Elgin Baylor Top 3-4 SF of All Time

- Would Only Rank Larry Bird, Dr J and *Lebron James above him

Bob Pettit Top 5-6 PF of All Time

-Would Only Rank Tim Duncan (CF), Charles Barkley (PF-SF), Karl Malone (PF), Kevin McHale (CF) and Kevin Garnett (PF-SF) and *Elvin Hayes (CF) above him

[MichaelCheazley]

The thing I consider most when it comes to greatness in a sport is how good they are at it followed by their sucess. Not how they "dominated their era" no matter how much weaker it is. OR how they revolutionized the sport. Just because you did something first and "layed the groundwork down" it doesnt make you a better player. The thing is you put him against 3rd tier centers like alonzo mourning, pat ewing he gets destroyed. If you consider russell and wilt's accomplishments kinda shaky due to 8 teams and what not Mikan's era is probably worse. Not taking away from the accomplishments but its truly the case. Mikan does not belong in the top 10. Hes not even a top 5 center. And dont bring the Modern technology/training bs into the argument they played in that era and another player played in another era there are no ifs and maybes.

[Legends66NBA7]

The thing I consider most when it comes to greatness in a sport is how good they are at it followed by their sucess. Not how they "dominated their era" no matter how much weaker it is. OR how they revolutionized the sport. Just because you did something first and "layed the groundwork down" it doesnt make you a better player. The thing is you put him against 3rd tier centers like alonzo mourning, pat ewing he gets destroyed. If you consider russell and wilt's accomplishments kinda shaky due to 8 teams and what not Mikan's era is probably worse. Not taking away from the accomplishments but its truly the case. Mikan does not belong in the top 10. Hes not even a top 5 center. And dont bring the Modern technology/training bs into the argument they played in that era and another player played in another era there are no ifs and maybes.

And this is would fall under "basketball ability" criteria. Good stuff.

[G.O.A.T]

Walton did achieve the ultimate accomplishment in a prime that lasted a bit less than 2 seasons, which is pretty amazing, don't get me wrong. You know how highly I regard Walton's play in '77 and '78 from past discussions we've had on him.

But while I look at prime first, and to some extent, peak, longevity still does matter to some degree with me, especially when talking about a player who was elite for 2 seasons. That's just really short compared to the other players in this range. But because of how good he was in that short time, I have no problem with Walton being in the top 20-30 range.

When looking at these players, I mainly look at their absolute prime. For example, '90-'93 Jordan, '84-'88 Bird, '87-'91 Magic, '98-'02 Shaq, '88-'93 Barkley, '93-'96 Hakeem ect. Or extended prime with examples being '01-'10 Kobe, '95-'03 Shaq ect.

Peak season is something I consider, but 1 season alone only goes so far.

When you think about 3 seasons as arguably the best player in the league, the list is extremely short. I mean from the shot clock era on in the NBA, we'd be left with Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe and maybe Pettit, Moses, Magic and Hakeem. Maybe I'm leaving out 1 or 2 guys, but that's a really short list. Of course, there'd be a few pre-shot clock players you could throw in there, but you'd still be talking about probably 15 players or less.

It'd take longer to look at players who have been top 5 for 6 seasons, and while it'd be a longer list, it'd still put Lebron in really elite company.

I have my doubts about Lebron leading a team to a title after the last 2 seasons, but I can't completely put aside 2009 where he was playing about as well as you can, even in the playoffs. 2010(before those final 3 games vs Boston), how much better he made the Cavs in '09 and '10 than they should've been and how good of an all around player he's become whether it's scoring, passing and now, defense.

I'm not even a fan, but his ability as a basketball player just amazes me.

It's fine and fair argument and I wasn't questioning the fairness of your assessment of Walton, just the issue of what you (or anyone for that matter) value and how much you value it.

I value the "got one actual title in two actual elite years" more than the "good enough to have won multiple hypothetical titles in at least three actual elite years" but I get where you're coming from. I am starting to wonder however if LeBron ever has been the best player in the NBA...

I'm not saying I didn't think LeBron was the best player in the world the past three years because I did. I'm just saying that based on what happened vs. Boston in '10 and in the finals last year, maybe I was wrong. Maybe he's not and maybe he never was. Maybe he is this generations Wilt in that while his physical and tangible talents exceed those of all his competitors, lesser talents in this generation (Nowitzki, Garnett, Wade, older Kobe etc.) are able to achieve greater because of their intangible greatness and/or LeBron's lack there of. Do you follow?

[ShaqAttack3234]

It's fine and fair argument and I wasn't questioning the fairness of your assessment of Walton, just the issue of what you (or anyone for that matter) value and how much you value it.

I value the "got one actual title in two actual elite years" more than the "good enough to have won multiple hypothetical titles in at least three actual elite years" but I get where you're coming from. I am starting to wonder however if LeBron ever has been the best player in the NBA...

I'm not saying I didn't think LeBron was the best player in the world the past three years because I did. I'm just saying that based on what happened vs. Boston in '10 and in the finals last year, maybe I was wrong. Maybe he's not and maybe he never was. Maybe he is this generations Wilt in that while his physical and tangible talents exceed those of all his competitors, lesser talents in this generation (Nowitzki, Garnett, Wade, older Kobe etc.) are able to achieve greater because of their intangible greatness and/or LeBron's lack there of. Do you follow?

I see some parallels between Lebron and Wilt as well. In fact, Miami's big 3/Lebron's 2011 is eerily similar to the '69 Lakers big 3/Wilt's 1969, imo.

I value titles as well, though I think that circumstances have to be considered. Lebron certainly had the talent and opportunity last season so that hurts him. He didn't have your typical championship-caliber roster in 2010, but you could argue that if he plays like himself after game 3 vs Boston that they at least could advance past that round. Not that Walton himself was in an incredible situation himself. He made Portland a championship team, so based on peak, I can see him above Lebron.

I see the arguments against Lebron being the best in '10 and '11, but not '09. I simply can't see an argument against him in '09. Kobe won, but Lebron played better than Kobe did against the team Kobe beat to win the title, so I think that shows that simply saying Kobe won the title isn't a fair way to compare them and shows why at least considering teams/match ups is important.

[G.O.A.T]

I see some parallels between Lebron and Wilt as well. In fact, Miami's big 3/Lebron's 2011 is eerily similar to the '69 Lakers big 3/Wilt's 1969, imo.

I value titles as well, though I think that circumstances have to be considered. Lebron certainly had the talent and opportunity last season so that hurts him. He didn't have your typical championship-caliber roster in 2010, but you could argue that if he plays like himself after game 3 vs Boston that they at least could advance past that round. Not that Walton himself was in an incredible situation himself. He made Portland a championship team, so based on peak, I can see him above Lebron.

I'll say that I see the arguments against Lebron being the best in '10 and '11, but not '09. I simply can't see an argument against him in '09. Kobe won, but Lebron played better than Kobe did against the team Kobe beat to win the title, so I think that shows that simply saying Kobe won the title isn't a fair way to compare them and shows why at least considering teams/match ups is important.

It would be difficult to make an argument for Kobe being better than LeBron in 2009 based on what we saw happen. Especially since I don't think Kobe is a guy who makes other better to the extent that someone like Magic or Russell or Bird do and if anything i believe LeBron is his equal if not a superior teammate. And even if I wanted to play the clutch angle I couldn't as LeBron was marvelous down the stretch for most of that season and playoffs.

I think once I break it down to this level, I am comfortable with Walton, Hondo, Zeke, Baylor, Pettit and the like above him.

Do you consider LeBron vs. Wade to be close on an all-time level if both of there careers stopped now?

[JMT]

The thing I consider most when it comes to greatness in a sport is how good they are at it followed by their sucess. Not how they "dominated their era" no matter how much weaker it is. OR how they revolutionized the sport. Just because you did something first and "layed the groundwork down" it doesnt make you a better player. The thing is you put him against 3rd tier centers like alonzo mourning, pat ewing he gets destroyed. If you consider russell and wilt's accomplishments kinda shaky due to 8 teams and what not Mikan's era is probably worse. Not taking away from the accomplishments but its truly the case. Mikan does not belong in the top 10. Hes not even a top 5 center. And dont bring the Modern technology/training bs into the argument they played in that era and another player played in another era there are no ifs and maybes.

Then don't vote for anyone. You're wasting your time. In 10-15 years they'll be irrelevant given your criteria.

People get bigger, stronger. There are advancements in nutrition, training and medicine that didn't exist even 20 years ago.

As far as diminishing 8 teams, let's instead look at the watered down talent pool today. Eight teams meant the best players on the planet at that time, and facing them night after night. Not coasting through a week of crap and gearing up for a decent opponent...of course, with a days rest and the advantages of modern travel.

To throw out how a player competed in their era is to throw out the history of the league. Just make a new all time top 10 each season. And in just a few years, some guy will be talking about how Jordan couldn't have competed with Cyborg Z, the new best player in the league.

"Can you believe they used to have people play?!?" :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

Then don't vote for anyone. You're wasting your time. In 10-15 years they'll be irrelevant given your criteria.

People get bigger, stronger. There are advancements in nutrition, training and medicine that didn't exist even 20 years ago.

As far as diminishing 8 teams, let's instead look at the watered down talent pool today. Eight teams meant the best players on the planet at that time, and facing them night after night. Not coasting through a week of crap and gearing up for a decent opponent...of course, with a days rest and the advantages of modern travel.

To throw out how a player competed in their era is to throw out the history of the league. Just make a new all time top 10 each season. And in just a few years, some guy will be talking about how Jordan couldn't have competed with Cyborg Z, the new best player in the league.

"Can you believe they used to have people play?!?" :facepalm

:oldlol:

[MichaelCheazley]

Then don't vote for anyone. You're wasting your time. In 10-15 years they'll be irrelevant given your criteria.
Yes and that is why there is no current player in the top 5. And I pretty much agree with the top ten

People get bigger, stronger. There are advancements in nutrition, training and medicine that didn't exist even 20 years ago.
There are also alot more unhealthy stuff readily available such as drugs,junk food and alcohol which im sure A LOT of players today use. We not have eddy curries and toine walkers walking out of the league early due to them. Also the game has changed in the way its taught. There are less fundamentals and prototypical players. They're replaced with flashier guards/forwards or jump shooting big men. Evolution isn't bad but when you evolve at least bring past successful trait/skills. Build on what was successful AND effective in the past dont just star a new.


As far as diminishing 8 teams, let's instead look at the watered down talent pool today. Eight teams meant the best players on the planet at that time, and facing them night after night. Not coasting through a week of crap and gearing up for a decent opponent...of course, with a days rest and the advantages of modern travel.

There is more talent to share as basketball is a more popular sport now than it was then. As there are no more factors like discrimination and such to prevent young ones from honing their skills and persuing a professional career.And the population in general has grown bringing a bigger pool of talent from overseas as opposed to in the early NBA days.



To throw out how a player competed in their era is to throw out the history of the league. Just make a new all time top 10 each season. And in just a few years, some guy will be talking about how Jordan couldn't have competed with Cyborg Z, the new best player in the league.

Comprehension FTL. I never said throw away the accomplishments but I just judge on ability rather than what they won. Competition always varies due to time, but basketball is basketball. And stop with your smart ass "throw away this and make a new list". LOOK AT THE TOP TEN WHERE ARE THE CURRENT PLAYERS? CHECK MY VOTES I DISAGREED WITH DIRK BEING THIS HIGH. I just voted for Isiah thomas. Newer technology and training help but it doesnt mean that jordans and magics will go lower. BECAUSE they had great skill unseen TILL today. They accomplished more in arguably tougher times even without your precious "technology and diet".


"Can you believe they used to have people play?!?" :facepalm

Ugh....

[MasterDurant24]

Elgin Baylor

[ShaqAttack3234]

Do you consider LeBron vs. Wade to be close on an all-time level if both of there careers stopped now?

Pretty close, yeah. Lebron has more ability, but aside from 2009, Wade has been a more impressive playoff performer, even from early in his career. I remember being really impressed with him in the '05 playoffs and started thinking he might be different from most of the other star perimeter players, and the way he followed that up in '06 puts him in elite company, imo, as well as his 2009 season which was amazing from an individual standpoint and his best season as far as I'm concerned, though the 2006 finals/ECF were legendary performances themselves.

I'd still give Lebron the edge based on the fact that I think his peak is better and he's been better more years since they've been in the league. I trust Wade more to play up to his level or raise his game in the playoffs, but I think that Lebron is significantly more capable of carrying a mediocre team, or making teams contenders that most players couldn't.

For a year to year breakdown, I'd go like this.

2004- Lebron(but tough to compare considering they were in different situations)
2005- Wade
2006- Wade
2007- Lebron(but Wade was better before his injury)
2008- Lebron(Wade was pretty much irrelevant this season due to injuries)
2009- Lebron
2010- Lebron
2011- Lebron(but the disappearing act in the finals makes me unsure)

Some of those years are pretty close such as the ones where I felt that I couldn't just list Lebron without saying something for Wade. They were pretty close in '09 and '10, Wade's skill set as an individual player was right there in '09, but didn't have the full season/playoffs that Lebron did, while Wade started the regular season off lazier in 2010, but Lebron's odd final 3 games vs Boston at least make you start looking more at the mental aspects, though it's not enough in a season when Wade lost in the first round and clearly didn't play as well for the entire season. 2011 becomes even harder because Lebron was clearly better in my mind throughout the regular season, and through the first 3 rounds of the playoffs had played better overall, but Wade ended up with the better overall playoff run, and again, hasn't given any reason to question his mental ability.

Interesting question, and when I think about it, I can see the case for Wade.

[RobertdeMeijer]

I also think the four almost great power forwards (Malone, Barkley, Garnett, Nowittzki) are ranked a bit high. But it's not a big difference from what I believe is right (they should be around players like Isiah, Stockton, Pettit and Baylor, which they are)

[Deuce Bigalow]

17 - David Robinson
7 - Lebron James
5 - Elgin Baylor
4 - Isiah Thomas
3 - George Mikan
2 - Bob Pettit
2 - John Havlicek
1 - Dwyane Wade

Total - 41 votes

[DaPerceive]

17 - David Robinson
7 - Lebron James
5 - Elgin Baylor
4 - Isiah Thomas
3 - George Mikan
2 - Bob Pettit
2 - John Havlicek
1 - Dwyane Wade

Total - 41 votes
Time for #20 brah.

[Legends66NBA7]

Time for #20 brah.

I responded in the T-Mac thread about why he hasn't made it out of the first round, incase you wanted to know.

[D-Wade316]

No, we all know your agenda
Mikan is not better than Kobe, Bird, and Hakeem
Yeah. It is an agenda putting Mikan, who was far more successful, than Kobe, Hakeem, Bird.:rolleyes:

[D-Wade316]

The thing I consider most when it comes to greatness in a sport is how good they are at it followed by their sucess. Not how they "dominated their era" no matter how much weaker it is. OR how they revolutionized the sport. Just because you did something first and "layed the groundwork down" it doesnt make you a better player. The thing is you put him against 3rd tier centers like alonzo mourning, pat ewing he gets destroyed. If you consider russell and wilt's accomplishments kinda shaky due to 8 teams and what not Mikan's era is probably worse. Not taking away from the accomplishments but its truly the case. Mikan does not belong in the top 10. Hes not even a top 5 center. And dont bring the Modern technology/training bs into the argument they played in that era and another player played in another era there are no ifs and maybes.
You simply don't understand the value of "groundwork". I'll give you an analogy.

Alexander the Great is widely considered the greatest military commander of all-time. During his conquest, he never lost a single battle due to his superior intellect. Now lets take one general in the modern era. Lets say Patton. If we put them in a head-to-head battle, Patton would beat Alexander and his spears & sticks men. That's not even debatable, because of the innovations since Alexander's time.

Now we put Alexander in Patton's shoes. Alexander and his 3rd army would have stomped the Germans, much more than what Patton would have done. Why? Because Alexander possessed a much greater intellect than Patton. He was greatly ahead of his time, and he utilized his army's full potential.

The same goes for Mikan. While Mikan, isn't as skilled as some big man today, we must value what he did in his era. Dominating the 50s during his time, was just as difficult as Wilt dominating the 60s. Why? Because no one had the abilities to do so than both of them.

You get my point?

[JMT]

Ugh....

Great response if it in any way reflected your original post.

More players/popularity doesn't equal better players or talent.

[Fazotronic]

Great response if it in any way reflected your original post.

More players/popularity doesn't equal better players or talent.

of course it does. :facepalm

how are talented players gona play basketball if they don't know about it.

[JMT]

how are talented players gona play basketball if they don't know about it.

More does not equal better. Simply having additional large bodies to draw from doesn't result in better play or players.

[MichaelCheazley]

You simply don't understand the value of "groundwork". I'll give you an analogy.

Alexander the Great is widely considered the greatest military commander of all-time. During his conquest, he never lost a single battle due to his superior intellect. Now lets take one general in the modern era. Lets say Patton. If we put them in a head-to-head battle, Patton would beat Alexander and his spears & sticks men. That's not even debatable, because of the innovations since Alexander's time.

Now we put Alexander in Patton's shoes. Alexander and his 3rd army would have stomped the Germans, much more than what Patton would have done. Why? Because Alexander possessed a much greater intellect than Patton. He was greatly ahead of his time, and he utilized his army's full potential.

The same goes for Mikan. While Mikan, isn't as skilled as some big man today, we must value what he did in his era. Dominating the 50s during his time, was just as difficult as Wilt dominating the 60s. Why? Because no one had the abilities to do so than both of them.

You get my point?

Apples and oranges