Elgin Baylor vs Jerry West

[PTB Fan]

Who's better?

Who'd you rather build your franchise on?

[L.Kizzle]

At their peaks Baylor was better. He got hurt in '64 I believe (knee injury) and was never the same again. He was still good for 25+ and was still All-NBA 1st team until 1969, but that just shows you how good he was.

West lasted longer, was still an All-Star until '73.

Career, West is slightly higher, and hell you couldn't go wrong picking Baylor, he was that good. Elgin was the first player that couldn't be stopped (drafted the season before Chamberlain.)


Little Known Fact: R&B Star Ginuwine's real name is Elgin Baylor Lumpkin.

[G.O.A.T]

Baylor is one of the greatest scorers in NBA history and as L. Kizzle mentioned at their peaks, Baylor was the superior player. He nearly averaged 40/20 without practicing in the '62 season. Baylor helped the Lakers reach the Finals when he was a rookie upsetting Bob Pettit's Hawks which won the Western division the two years prior and after that '59 campaign.

In 1961 Baylor averaged nearly 37 a game in the Western Finals and had 39 and 25 in game seven. In 1962 he scored 63 points in game five of the Finals and had LA up 3-2 on the Celtics. Prior to his knee injury, Baylor was the Lakers MVP candidate and West was clearly his sidekick. Baylor finished well ahead of West in the MVP voting every season from '61 to '63. After that Baylor's numbers dropped off big time (from 34-15 to 25-12) and his physical condition only got worse. He missed the '65 playoffs, he limped his way in and out of the line-up in '66 and had his only non-all-NBA season of the decade.

West on the other hand seemed to keep getting stronger and better throughout most of his career. He was the better player, especially in the postseason from '64 to '67. From 68-69 it got interesting again. Baylor recaptured his alpha role for much of the regular season as West was hampered with nagging injuries. However in the postseason it was West who took the ball in crunch-time. In the Finals West averaged 31 and Baylor 26. The next season, with Wilt Chamberlain joining the team, Baylor and West both excepted lesser but still major roles. Baylor was the teams only all-NBA 1st team performer, but Wilt was their best player and in the playoffs West became the star again.

After that Baylors age and the wear on his body made him a shell of his former self. West somehow just got better, he had an MVP caliber season in 1970 and eventually helped led the Lakers to a title in 1972 just a few months after Baylor retired.

West inevitably will be ranked higher due to his longevity and the always essential ring. However saying Baylor was better is completely fair and saying both needed each other is just the truth.

[La Frescobaldi]

West by a mile.
Baylor was a real good offensive force when I saw him from mid & late sixties but as far as i ever saw he had 0 defense.
From the games when he stood wide open & unguarded by the Celtics in 69 Finals - they were HOPING the Lakers would throw to him - I never liked his game ever after. Which admittedly was extremely rare occasion, he played like 60 games his last 3 years combined.

Jim Cleamons said it had been basic Lakers strategy for a decade, if Baylor had the ball you got ready to rebound because he would only ever shoot.


Nobody ever questioned West's defense. Lotta guys had career scoring games against Baylor.

[feyki]

Peak - Elgin

Prime - Elgin

Career - West

It's like Kobe and Shaq .

[jongib369]

Peak - Elgin

Prime - Elgin

Career - West

It's like Kobe and Shaq .
You are on a bump rampage :lol

Serial bumper

[feyki]

You are on a bump rampage :lol

Serial bumper

I don't want to talk about daily threads . Let's talk about basketball history and legends :D .

[Moonbeam]

I think this is Jerry pretty easily. I'm quite high on him - I have him #10 on my all-time list. Elgin was great too, of course, but I feel West was more well-rounded and did most things better (including scoring).

[Marchesk]

Jim Cleamons said it had been basic Lakers strategy for a decade, if Baylor had the ball you got ready to rebound because he would only ever shoot.

And yet Baylor averaged 4.3 assists for his career. He had a high of 5.1 when he averaged 34.8 back in 60/61.


Nobody ever questioned West's defense. Lotta guys had career scoring games against Baylor.

But was that post knee surgery? Cavs put together a video with commentary that Baylor was a very good defender.

[feyki]

I think this is Jerry pretty easily. I'm quite high on him - I have him #10 on my all-time list. Elgin was great too, of course, but I feel West was more well-rounded and did most things better (including scoring).

How West more well rounded than Elgin ?

Elgin had great playmaking and good defence too . And Elgin was easily better rebounder . Don't mention height , there was 2 inches margin between of two height's .

West was better shooter for sure . But i disagree your point .

[La Frescobaldi]

And yet Baylor averaged 4.3 assists for his career. He had a high of 5.1 when he averaged 34.8 back in 60/61.



But was that post knee surgery? Cavs put together a video with commentary that Baylor was a very good defender.

baylor was in the top 10 in the league in assists like 3 times, all before 1965, never was in the top 5. lots and lots and lots of guys were better at finding the open man and hitting him in the chest.
Defensively West was known, respected, and feared. While many guys had career games going off on Baylor. He was not close to being a good defender, highlights notwithstanding. Celtics Sixers Bullets Bucks Bulls Knix all knew perfectly to flood his area for easy points at any and all times

[bizil]

GOAT wise, its Logo. But peak value-best player wise, I would go with Baylor. The main factors are Baylor's freakish athletic ability as well as his versatility. Baylor could play PF and SG in addition to his SF spot. But I consider West-Baylor-Big O MORE AHEAD of their time than any perimeter players of all time.

[L.Kizzle]

baylor was in the top 10 in the league in assists like 3 times, all before 1965, never was in the top 5. lots and lots and lots of guys were better at finding the open man and hitting him in the chest.
Defensively West was known, respected, and feared. While many guys had career games going off on Baylor. He was not close to being a good defender, highlights notwithstanding. Celtics Sixers Bullets Bucks Bulls Knix all knew perfectly to flood his area for easy points at any and all times
But wasn't that post knee-injury when he could barley move?
Before his injury, I read he was an exceptional defender.
1963, he's 3rd in defensive win shares below Russell and Pettit. He was top seven 2 other years. Also in 63, he's sixth in assist behind Rogers, Oscar, Cousy, Si Green (WTF is that!) and Lenny Wilkens. He's behind 4 Hof PGs and Si Green (again, WTF is this!) The other years he makes the top ten, he's behind PGs.

Also, I'd would like to know who had career nights over Elgin pre-injury.

[La Frescobaldi]

But wasn't that post knee-injury when he could barley move?
Before his injury, I read he was an exceptional defender.
1963, he's 3rd in defensive win shares below Russell and Pettit. He was top seven 2 other years. Also in 63, he's sixth in assist behind Rogers, Oscar, Cousy, Si Green (WTF is that!) and Lenny Wilkens. He's behind 4 Hof PGs and Si Green (again, WTF is this!) The other years he makes the top ten, he's behind PGs.

Also, I'd would like to know who had career nights over Elgin pre-injury.

yes.

i don't talk about players that i never saw, or else like baylor or russell, i only describe what i saw not what happened 8 or 10 years before.

the poor defense that i saw wasn't due to injury it was about effort.
but as far as guys that scorched baylor in the early '60s? look at bb ref, look at Russell's books, listen to tommy heinsohn, look up on google. there's plenty of statements about it out there.

[Marchesk]

Si Green (again, WTF is this!)

Never heard of that dude before.

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/pics/2135/15/102452.jpg

[La Frescobaldi]

But wasn't that post knee-injury when he could barley move?
Before his injury, I read he was an exceptional defender.
1963, he's 3rd in defensive win shares below Russell and Pettit. He was top seven 2 other years. Also in 63, he's sixth in assist behind Rogers, Oscar, Cousy, Si Green (WTF is that!) and Lenny Wilkens. He's behind 4 Hof PGs and Si Green (again, WTF is this!) The other years he makes the top ten, he's behind PGs.

Also, I'd would like to know who had career nights over Elgin pre-injury.

OK ~ watch 22 on this game 7.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu5vMfPtbw
defense?
Older guys may not have full athleticism, sure. But they should know about basic defense, what's happening in the game, the opposing players, the Celtics playbook.......

Now you have to watch this in terms of it's own era my friend, with the strict rules of basketball. man to man defense, no 3 line, etc.
Baylor guards Bailey Howell 18, and Don Nelson 19. They don't have him guarding Havlicek, see. He can't stay in front of Don Nelson hows he going to keep up with Big John?
But it's not even the weak assignments he would draw. Watch this Finals game.
Baylor standing around, not watching the ball, following his man like a sheep, and completely lost. Everybody on the floor is turning their head watching the floor, watching the ball... but not Baylor. His defense is horrific.

This is after like 10 NBA years, nobody else is playing defense like that lulz he still turns his back on the ball constantly. after a decade in the L.
Here's another Finals game. You would think he'd play defense with intensity in a Finals game right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqWD5lhGBOQ

If you are watching defensive play you can't even take your eye off #10 Walt Frazier his defense is so crushing. But Elgin Baylor? He doesn't even know where he is - and those are Finals games.

[pudman13]

I'm not sure how much this would matter, but did Baylor's tic affect his defense?

West was one of the best defensive players ever. If they had counted steals during his career, there's no doubt in my mind he would have ended his career as the all time leader, and still would be up near the top.

[feyki]

Never heard of that dude before.

http://www.vintagecardprices.com/pics/2135/15/102452.jpg

I guess he selected above Russell in fixed 56 draft ( ice capades ) .

[jongib369]

OK ~ watch 22 on this game 7.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lnu5vMfPtbw
defense?
Older guys may not have full athleticism, sure. But they should know about basic defense, what's happening in the game, the opposing players, the Celtics playbook.......

Now you have to watch this in terms of it's own era my friend, with the strict rules of basketball. man to man defense, no 3 line, etc.
Baylor guards Bailey Howell 18, and Don Nelson 19. They don't have him guarding Havlicek, see. He can't stay in front of Don Nelson hows he going to keep up with Big John?
But it's not even the weak assignments he would draw. Watch this Finals game.
Baylor standing around, not watching the ball, following his man like a sheep, and completely lost. Everybody on the floor is turning their head watching the floor, watching the ball... but not Baylor. His defense is horrific.

This is after like 10 NBA years, nobody else is playing defense like that lulz he still turns his back on the ball constantly. after a decade in the L.
Here's another Finals game. You would think he'd play defense with intensity in a Finals game right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqWD5lhGBOQ

If you are watching defensive play you can't even take your eye off #10 Walt Frazier his defense is so crushing. But Elgin Baylor? He doesn't even know where he is - and those are Finals games.
Switch Baylor with Havlicek...How do you think those early 60s Laker teams would have done? Before Wilt, then with

[La Frescobaldi]

Switch Baylor with Havlicek...How do you think those early 60s Laker teams would have done? Before Wilt, then with

imo they don't beat Celtics. They might match them on the court but not on the bench. Lakers coaches were really bad. During timeouts they used to walk off with Baylor and West and the rest of the squad just sat on the bench and looked over at them..... no idea what they were talking about. or call time out during a fast break lol.
With Chamberlain you mean like in that game from '69? yeah probably they would win.