KG vs Dirk. Gloves off

[Clippersfan86]

Okay so I want to start by saying I love Dirk. He's a great human being and an amazing player. That being said I feel like since the playoffs things are really getting out of perspective. Suddenly Dirk is in talks as the GOAT PF... and jumped 50 spots up the all time list etc.

I want to hear from legit posters only. Unbiased guys. Guys with numbers and or logic to back up their opinions. Guys who have watched a lot of both players. No homer picks please. I understand this has been talked about before but these comparison threads are usually filled with trolls and kids who didn't start watching till 2007. So I'm hoping to have a more legit comparison this time. I want guys like Lizzle, Blaze, RR, Crown, Special etc in here.

My pick is KG. Dirk has had a bit more playoff success but KG was always the superior all around player, despite having much less talent around him for so long (Wolves). Dirk's absolute peak also wasn't nearly as good as 25 ppg, 14 rpg, 5 apg, 2 spg, 2 bpg with elite defense that KG had.

Who was the better overall player and who do you have higher on your all time PF list?

Bold your votes for me so I can keep track for fun and my own reference. Thanks!

[NBAller]

KG was the better overall player in his prime imo. But I'd still take Dirk any day of the week and twice on Sundays to start a team with.

[Clippersfan86]

KG was the better overall player in his prime imo. But I'd still take Dirk any day of the week and twice on Sundays to start a team with.

Who do you rank higher on the all time list of top PF's and who was overall the better player? Not who you'd prefer to start a franchise with :cheers: :D .

[NBAller]

Who do you rank higher on the all time list of top PF's and who was overall the better player? Not who you'd prefer to start a franchise with :cheers: :D .

KG ranks higher than Dirk all time. I've already answered who's the better overall player.

[Clippersfan86]

KG ranks higher than Dirk all time. I've already answered who's the better overall player.

Oh okay. Because I enjoy watching Dirk play more I'd probably take him to start a franchise too TBH... I'm just trying to figure out where people rank them all time.

[Scoooter]

KG is a(n) (all-time) complimentary player. He isn't your number one the way Dirk can and has consistently been.

Kind of an either/or situation though. I'd take both of them over The Mailman.

[Clippersfan86]

KG is a(n) (all-time) complimentary player. He isn't your number one the way Dirk can and has consistently been.

Kind of an either/or situation though. I'd take both of them over The Mailman.

Gotta pick one! Bold your votes for me too plz guys. I'm gonna tally them up just for fun. :cheers: . I wouldn't call KG a complimentary player though... :no:. KG carried the Wolves for a long time and consistently got heartbroken. He was never surrounded with the talent or depth Dirk has been his entire career.

[NBAller]

Oh okay. Because I enjoy watching Dirk play more I'd probably take him to start a franchise too TBH... I'm just trying to figure out where people rank them all time.

But, with Dirks new championship I'd move him up 1 or 2 spots putting him even closer to KG.

[Scoooter]

Gotta pick one! Bold your votes for me too plz guys. I'm gonna tally them up just for fun. :cheers: . I wouldn't call KG a complimentary player though... :no:
That's where he thrives. If the game is on the line and you can give it someone other than KG, you're good. PP in the '08 Finals.

It doesn't mean he's bad. :confusedshrug:

[Clippersfan86]

But, with Dirks new championship I'd move him up 1 or 2 spots putting him even closer to KG.

Yup he DEFINITELY moves up into the top 5 PF talks. Before I'm not sure I would of had him top 10 PF.. now he's in the top 5 discussion. With guys like Duncan, Malone, Barkley, KG, Mchale, Bob Pettit etc.

[RRR3]

Yup he DEFINITELY moves up into the top 5 PF talks. Before I'm not sure I would of had him top 10 PF.. now he's in the top 5 discussion. With guys like Duncan, Malone, Barkley, KG, Mchale, Bob Pettit etc.
Dirk>McHale. McHale isn't a top 5 PF by any means. Great player though.

[Clippersfan86]

That's where he thrives. If the game is on the line and you can give it someone other than KG, you're good. PP in the '08 Finals.

It doesn't mean he's bad. :confusedshrug:

Paul Pierce no doubt deserved MVP because he played out of his mind in the finals but that being said it could of easily been KG's the way he made Pau his bitc* defensively in those finals. Not to mention it's well known KG is the heart and soul of the Celtics. Their most valuable all around asset even today at his age probably. I think KG was very capable as a first option... he just was gimped with talent. Older Spreewell with attitude problems.... Sam Cassell with his injuries in 04-05 then his trade to the Clippers next year. He's never had much to work with. Look how loaded Dirk's team this year had to be to finally get over the hump?

I'm sure you give KG the same exact roster at 32 or 33 years old and he wins a ring as well. I understand KG's not the go to scorer Dirk is... no question but his all around impact on multiple facets of the game has always been superior in my opinion.

[Clippersfan86]

Dirk>McHale. McHale isn't a top 5 PF by any means. Great player though.

I agree Dirk>McHale. I was just naming off some of the highest ranked PF's in general because Dirk is up there with those guys right now. Personally here's how I'd rank (I'm probably gonna forget one)

1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Barkley
4. KG
5. Dirk
6. Kevin McHale
7. Elvin Hayes
8. Bob Pettit
9. Dennis Rodman
10. Shawn Kemp

my list would be something like that.

[chazzy]

KG had the better prime and peak. Dirk is the better clutch player and offensive player overall, but KG defense/rebounding sets him apart. They're pretty close on all time list because of Dirk's consistent team success, but I have KG ahead

Yup he DEFINITELY moves up into the top 5 PF talks. Before I'm not sure I would of had him top 10 PF.
Woah, who did you have in your top 10?

[NBAller]

1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Barkley
4. KG
5. Dirk
.

Yep. I digit.

[Clippersfan86]

KG had the better prime and peak. Dirk is the better clutch player and offensive player overall, but KG defense/rebounding sets him apart. They're pretty close on all time list because of Dirk's consistent team success, but I have KG ahead

Woah, who did you have in your top 10?

I listed it above :cheers: . I think after listing my names though it's clear Dirk would of been in top 10. Just in the bottom part of the list.. like 7-10 rather than number 5. The ring moved him up a few spots. Highlight KG for me in your post?

[Clippersfan86]

Yep. I digit.

:cheers: . I will say though watching Dirk this postseason was the most joy I've ever gotten watching basketball outside of my Clips. It was just beautiful to watch the Mavs. Watch them move the ball so well and make plays for each other. Dirk taking over games... and swishing shots in people's faces off one foot while fading away. He definitely went Jordan/God mode for sure.

[fos]

I'll take Dirk. He's owned KG in the playoffs when it matters and won a championship as the man and without two other all-stars. People loved to use the championship thing when he won it on a stacked team to claim KG > Dirk so now that Dirk has won his championship and done so as the man and in spectacular fashion he now holds the advantage. I'll take a great offensive player who is a good defender over a good offensive player who is a great defender, and yes, Dirk is a good defender.

[Clippersfan86]

I'll take Dirk. He's owned KG in the playoffs when it matters and won a championship as the man and without two other all-stars. People loved to use the championship thing when he won it on a stacked team to claim KG > Dirk so now that Dirk has won his championship and done so as the man and in spectacular fashion he now holds the advantage. I'll take a great offensive player who is a good defender over a good offensive player who is a great defender, and yes, Dirk is a good defender.

:facepalm. Yes Dirk is a good defender....

[NBAller]

I'll take Dirk. He's owned KG in the playoffs when it matters and won a championship as the man and without two other all-stars. People loved to use the championship thing when he won it on a stacked team to claim KG > Dirk so now that Dirk has won his championship and done so as the man and in spectacular fashion he now holds the advantage. I'll take a great offensive player who is a good defender over a good offensive player who is a great defender, and yes, Dirk is a good defender.

I agree. He's also not a horrible rebounder like people make him out to be. INB4 you catch shit for saying that though. ****** don't respect these parts of Dirks game.

[Clippersfan86]

I agree. He's also not a horrible rebounder like people make him out to be. INB4 you catch shit for saying that though. ****** don't respect these parts of Dirks game.

I label him as a solid defender. He at least doesn't defend like a chump like he used to. Let's not call him a good defender though.... that's not really accurate. What's weird as we all know he's a more solid defender now... but his defensive rating is lower the last 4 years than before. BTW Blake Griffin is just a tad worse than Dirk when it comes to defensive rating.... so maybe people will stop calling him a "Terrible" defender. Both are average defenders. Not good but not as bad as people make them out to be.

[Scoooter]

Paul Pierce no doubt deserved MVP because he played out of his mind in the finals but that being said it could of easily been KG's the way he made Pau his bitc* defensively in those finals. Not to mention it's well known KG is the heart and soul of the Celtics. Their most valuable all around asset even today at his age probably. I think KG was very capable as a first option... he just was gimped with talent. Older Spreewell with attitude problems.... Sam Cassell with his injuries in 04-05 then his trade to the Clippers next year. He's never had much to work with. Look how loaded Dirk's team this year had to be to finally get over the hump?

I'm sure you give KG the same exact roster at 32 or 33 years old and he wins a ring as well. I understand KG's not the go to scorer Dirk is... no question but his all around impact on multiple facets of the game has always been superior in my opinion.
Shoulda, woulda, coulda. KG isn't clutch like Dirk, and offense is still king in this sport. Dirk has historically gotten shit help from his teammates, especially in the playoffs. "Loaded", lol. They played well. They played to their averages instead of clamming up - Terry especially - and that was all it took. If Dirk's teammates hadn't been no-shows in the playoffs for the last 10 years, he might have more than one ring.

And Dirk's a fine defender. He's not as good as KG, but he's not some deadbeat like Amar'e or Blake Griffin. His playoff rebounding averages begin to attest to that.

[Clippersfan86]

Shoulda, woulda, coulda. KG isn't clutch like Dirk, and offense is still king in this sport. Dirk has historically gotten shit help from his teammates, especially in the playoffs. "Loaded", lol. They played well. They played to their averages instead of clamming up - Terry especially - and that was all it took. If Dirk's teammates hadn't been no-shows in the playoffs for the last 10 years, he might have more than one ring.

And Dirk's a fine defender. He's not as good as KG, but he's not some deadbeat like Amar'e or Blake Griffin. His playoff rebounding averages begin to attest to that.

So you disagree that KG's rosters were significantly worse than Dirk's? Did you know Dirk's defensive rating is 105, Blake's 107? Both on the same exact tier defensively and Blake was a rookie. 105 and 107 for a big is average or slightly subpar. Not terrible but definitely not good.

[Clippersfan86]

BTW are we really going to use defensive rebounds as a defensive strength? Sure it counts in the DPOY race but when people talk about how good of a defender someone is.. they aren't usually talking defensive rebounds.

[Scoooter]

So you disagree that KG's rosters were significantly worse than Dirk's? Did you know Dirk's defensive rating is 105, Blake's 107? Both on the same exact tier defensively and Blake was a rookie. 105 and 107 for a big is average or slightly subpar. Not terrible but definitely not good.
Griffin can gargle my chode. He's as big a sieve as any frontcourt player I've seen in recent memory.

[Scoooter]

BTW are we really going to use defensive rebounds as a defensive strength? Sure it counts in the DPOY race but when people talk about how good of a defender someone is.. they aren't usually talking defensive rebounds.
It's certainly not an offensive strength.

[Clippersfan86]

Griffin can gargle my chode. He's as big a sieve as any frontcourt player I've seen in recent memory.

I'm not even trying to get my man some hype by talking about him. I'm just saying defensive rating shows them being on the same tier so not sure why you're putting him and Amare down to make a point about Dirk's defense.

You say woulda shoulda coulda... but then go on to say if Dirk had competent teammates the last 10 years he'd have a ring sooner right? So why can't I use that in defense of KG when he had even less talent around him? I can understand if KG never made the playoffs but they won 55+ games a couple times and made the playoffs pretty much every year until they traded Cassell (besides the year before that when they got hit with an injury bug). Sure Dirk had more playoff success overall.

He also had way better teams and teammates.

[Scoooter]

I'm not even trying to get my man some hype by talking about him. I'm just saying defensive rating shows them being on the same tier so not sure why you're putting him and Amare down to make a point about Dirk's defense.

You say woulda shoulda coulda... but then go on to say if Dirk had competent teammates the last 10 years he'd have a ring sooner right? So why can't I use that in defense of KG when he had even less talent around him? I can understand if KG never made the playoffs but they won 55+ games a couple times and made the playoffs pretty much every year until they traded Cassell (besides the year before that when they got hit with an injury bug). Sure Dirk had more playoff success overall.

He also had way better teams and teammates.
Dirk won 50+ games every single year for a decade. And had more playoff success. And he crushed KG when they went head to head. And he's one of the All-time clutch players.

And it's still close. Either/or, like I said. But gun to my head, I'll take Dirk.

[DMAVS41]

I have KG ever so slightly ahead of Dirk all time. I hope/think that Dirk will pass him because Dirk is going to play better at an advanced age.

If I have to build a team around 1 of them. Dirk. I know Dirk can consistently raise his game in the playoffs and has that "it" factor when the game is on the line. The luxury of being able to run your offense through a 7 footer that can also play pick and rolls and hit threes...and is a great one on one player and a great ft shooter trumps what KG gives you on defense in my opinion.

Close games are inevitable in the playoffs...and there is no doubt that Dirk is the guy you want late in a tight game.

Of course this isn't a one on one thing. The supporting cast matters. If KG has a great late game player that can consistently create their own shot and demand a ton of defensive attention....then KG would probably be my pick. Not sure how many players there are out there like that.

As is true with all great players. You don't win alone. Dirk needed Chandler....KG needed Pierce.

[Clippersfan86]

Dirk won 50+ games every single year for a decade. And had more playoff success. And he crushed KG when they went head to head. And he's one of the All-time clutch players.

And it's still close. Either/or, like I said. But gun to my head, I'll take Dirk.

You saw where I ranked them. KG 4, Dirk 5. Obviously I'm not selling Dirk short and I do think this is arguable or I wouldn't of made the thread. I will say before Dirk's epic playoff run and winning ring this year though that he wasn't going to be ranked this high nor would many put him above KG. Now that he showed his greatness he's absolutely in this debate.

BTW KG had a 58 win season but not 2 55 win ones like I thought. He did have 4 50 win seasons though in his time on the Wolves and 4 more with the Celtics right away... putting him at 8 seasons leading a team to 50+ wins. As I said he's still the heart and soul of the Celtics and best all around player. The regular season figures are close and like I said that doesn't factor in that in the T'Wolves era he had less talent to work with than Dirk.

Check this out Scooter. Wolves finally get talent in Sprewell and Cassell and all the sudden they win 58 games and make the WCF after years of first round elimination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_Timberwolves#1995.E2.80.932007:_The_Kevi n_Garnett_era

This proves exactly what I was saying.

Who could win with a roster of...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2001.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2003.html

or any of their other early KG Wolves rosters? This wasn't when Billups was a good player either. Marbury was gone before he blew up. If Wally is your 2nd best player you aren't winning sh**. Especially with no depth.

[Clippersfan86]

I have KG ever so slightly ahead of Dirk all time. I hope/think that Dirk will pass him because Dirk is going to play better at an advanced age.

If I have to build a team around 1 of them. Dirk. I know Dirk can consistently raise his game in the playoffs and has that "it" factor when the game is on the line. The luxury of being able to run your offense through a 7 footer that can also play pick and rolls and hit threes...and is a great one on one player and a great ft shooter trumps what KG gives you on defense in my opinion.

Close games are inevitable in the playoffs...and there is no doubt that Dirk is the guy you want late in a tight game.

Of course this isn't a one on one thing. The supporting cast matters. If KG has a great late game player that can consistently create their own shot and demand a ton of defensive attention....then KG would probably be my pick. Not sure how many players there are out there like that.

As is true with all great players. You don't win alone. Dirk needed Chandler....KG needed Pierce.


:applause: . Great post and contribution Mavs. I agree 100 percent. Like I said earlier I don't want people to think I'm bashing Dirk. I like Dirk more as a person and player and would take him first for my own franchise. I'm just trying to rank these guys.

[the_wise_one]

I am unbiased and I give KG all the credit for:

1. Being extremely loyal to the Wolves and assumed responsibility of them losing in the 1st round of playoffs year in and year out.
2. Not joining the Fakers, but joining the Celtics and helping them win a ring.

However, Dirk wins this. He's a legend, #2 GOAT PF of all time after Duncan.

[RazorBaLade]

Lets get some stats up in here

Dirk: 23 8 3 on 48%.

KG: 20 11 4 on 50%.

Garnett is just a tiny bit better stats wise. kg gives you defense , dirk gives you more offense. One is soft, one makes your team tougher.

I take KG. I still don't forgive Dirk for missing a ft in 06, he was amazing this year but he's still a choker to me. So is terry, believe me, I think terry is pathetic, but dirk is too good to be forgiven for being up 2-0 and losing. At least one year doesn't make up for it. BUT dirks career is gonna keep going, kg is done. So man, its really close. Dirk gives you few more points on lower %, KG gives you more defense and rebounding but is not as useful in the clutch.

I'm gonna go with Dirk being the better player but rather build around KG and have my team take on his attitude instead of dirks. I just value scoring too much tho so i gotta say dirk isbetter.

[BEAST Griffin]

Kevin Garnett

[Jacks3]

has dirk ever had a season comparable to 04 KG? i don't think so.

24 PPG/15 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/2 BPG/ and DOPY defense. :bowdown:

[BEAST Griffin]

has dirk ever had a season comparable to 04 KG? i don't think so.

24 PPG/15 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/2 BPG/ and DOPY defense. :bowdown:

Nope.

And neither has Kobe. :D

[knicksman]

ill go with dirk. I dont judge players based on stats but based on playing style. And dirk has the best playing style. If only he has the athleticism. In basketball, before you become a scorer, you have to be a defender first or else the coaches wont play you. Just like before you become a manager, you have to start as a rank and file employee first. Thus, being a batman scorer is the highest position in basketball. KG never attain that level and so I dont rank him higher than dirk.

its the reason why dirk has more success than kg in the playoffs and couldve 2 titles right now if wade wasnt gifted with 30 fts.

[NBAller]

I thought we were ranking them on the all time PF list. If that's not the case.......Dirk>>>>>>>>

I put KG above Dirk in the all time list because he's a better all around player. Other than that, I'm with my fellow German jumpshooter.

[Clippersfan86]

I thought we were ranking them on the all time PF list. If that's not the case.......Dirk>>>>>>>>

I put KG above Dirk in the all time list because he's a better all around player. Other than that, I'm with my fellow German jumpshooter.

We are :confusedshrug: . People don't read the OP apparently.

[DMAVS41]

Lets get some stats up in here

Dirk: 23 8 3 on 48%.

KG: 20 11 4 on 50%.

Garnett is just a tiny bit better stats wise. kg gives you defense , dirk gives you more offense. One is soft, one makes your team tougher.

I take KG. I still don't forgive Dirk for missing a ft in 06, he was amazing this year but he's still a choker to me. So is terry, believe me, I think terry is pathetic, but dirk is too good to be forgiven for being up 2-0 and losing. At least one year doesn't make up for it. BUT dirks career is gonna keep going, kg is done. So man, its really close. Dirk gives you few more points on lower %, KG gives you more defense and rebounding but is not as useful in the clutch.

I'm gonna go with Dirk being the better player but rather build around KG and have my team take on his attitude instead of dirks. I just value scoring too much tho so i gotta say dirk isbetter.


Wow. How anyone can call Dirk a choker is beyond me. He's one of the most clutch players of all time.

:wtf:

[$LakerGold]

iight.... heres how you put it in CONTEXT.

NAME ANY PLAYER THAT PLAYS LIKE KG? On the top of my head... Shawn Kemp but he doesnt have a mid-range game like KG.
NAME ANY PLAYER THAT PLAYS LIKE DIRK? As far as I know... Horry, but Horry has no post-up..

Now you do the math...

[Bernie Nips]

And here we go again...

"KG ain't clutch."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puj2HzfXXM8

Just because KG doesn't ballhog when the game is on the line and constantly looks for whatever the best option is, doesn't mean he's not clutch. Plus, he's one of the most defensively clutch players of all time, making some of the greatest blocks and steals in crunch time that anyone has ever made.

Btw, I vote KG.

[with malice]

KG.
And career-wise, I don't think it's that close.

[Jacks3]

Nope.

And neither has Kobe. :D
yeah, he has. 2003/2006 and 2007.

anyway, this isn't close. kg is clearly the superior player.

[with malice]

Wow. How anyone can call Dirk a choker is beyond me. He's one of the most clutch players of all time.

:wtf:
Yet before the 2011 playoffs, that's exactly what he was known as.

[BEAST Griffin]

yeah, he has. 2003/2006 and 2007.

anyway, this isn't close. kg is clearly the superior player.

24 PPG/15 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/2 BPG/ and DOPY defense

>>>>>>

Kobe's stats and overrated defense

[RazorBaLade]

Wow. How anyone can call Dirk a choker is beyond me. He's one of the most clutch players of all time.

:wtf:

this year doesnt make up for warriors and 06

[DMAVS41]

this year doesnt make up for warriors and 06

LOL....I guess every player is a choker then.

I think you are a big Kobe fan. Did he not choke in 04? 06? 08? 11? Do you label Kobe a choker?

[knickswin]

KG got out of the first round once in like ten million years in the league before hopping on the Paul Pierce train (I keed a little, Garnett is many ways is better than Pierce, but Pierce is underrated). I also can't really think of any amazing Garnett playoff games or series. I think there was like 1 game against the Kings in 2004 that was pretty good, but that's all I can recall.

[knickswin]

this year doesnt make up for warriors and 06

lol at him choking in 06. He missed one free throw and now he's a choker. He actually played great in the elimination game, unfortunately JET, Howard, Devin Harris, and Stackhouse all stunk up the joint. Lots of missed jumpers.

[RazorBaLade]

LOL....I guess every player is a choker then.

I think you are a big Kobe fan. Did he not choke in 04? 06? 08? 11?

Actually yeah. Most superstars have choked, maybe only like bird and jordan are the only ones I can think off from the top of my head that whenever they did something bad, they managed to go total clutch and save it and not have it be remembered as choking. Very very very few players perform under pressure especially in playoffs. Kobe's probably the clutchest regular season player ever though so I imagine you are referring to playoffs.

Wtf. What do you think choking is? Playing a poor series does not mean he choked. Kobe in 04 played poorly and had one insanely clutch shot. I don't think playing poorly is a choke. 06 you mean the series where he avgd 30 6 5 or something on good % , had a gw and a gtying shot, and scored 20 or something on 50% in game 7? Who took the 2nd ranked team to a 7th game with an atrocious supporting cast? Who had a 50 pt game? Doesn't sound like choking to me.

08 and 11 are closer to being chokes. I don't mind those being considered chokes and "black marks" on kobes resume. The situation in 08 with 2 injured starters, Idk, as a kobe fan I gloss past that one. 2011 it is absolutely a black mark to miss that game winner. It turned out that shot was the entire series right there. Absolutely a black mark. Its still game 1 tho, but it can be considered a choke.


lol at him choking in 06. He missed one free throw and now he's a choker. He actually played great in the elimination game, unfortunately JET, Howard, Devin Harris, and Stackhouse all stunk up the joint. Lots of missed jumpers.

Ya. If you have a chance to hit a free throw to go up 3-0 in the finals and you miss, you choked pretty ****ing hard.

[knickswin]

missing one free throw is not such a massive choke job. Wade and Bosh missed several crucial free throws in the finals and no one is going to talk about them anymore.

[RazorBaLade]

missing one free throw is not such a massive choke job. Wade and Bosh missed several crucial free throws in the finals and no one is going to talk about them anymore.

yeah man lets look at it as a single free throw instead of the shot he hits at a 90% rate that practically secures him a championship and he misses it.

sure sounds better.

here i know. kobe didnt play bad against the mavs this year, he just missed some shots. i dont see why its so bad to miss some shots.

do you work for the media son? a big shot is a big shot

[knickswin]

yeah man lets look at it as a single free throw instead of the shot he hits at a 90% rate that practically secures him a championship and he misses it.

sure sounds better.

here i know. kobe didnt play bad against the mavs this year, he just missed some shots. i dont see why its so bad to miss some shots.

do you work for the media son? a big shot is a big shot

it is one shot. It takes more than one missed shot to choke in my book. I think it is pretty rare for players to actually choke. You've got to mess up big time. Teams can choke, though.

[RazorBaLade]

it is one shot. It takes more than one missed shot to choke in my book. I think it is pretty rare for players to actually choke. You've got to mess up big time. Teams can choke, though.

meh. i dont have a problem with that really, just different opinions. Do you think players individually can be clutch?

[Jacks3]

24 PPG/15 RPG/5 APG/2 SPG/2 BPG/ and DOPY defense

>>>>>>

Kobe's stats and overrated defense
nope. 35-5-5-2+ All NBA 1st Team Defense, 32-6-5-2+ All-NBA 1st Team Defense, 30-7-6-2-1+ All-NBA 1st Team Defense is better. u mad?

[DMAVS41]

Actually yeah. Most superstars have choked, maybe only like bird and jordan are the only ones I can think off from the top of my head that whenever they did something bad, they managed to go total clutch and save it and not have it be remembered as choking. Very very very few players perform under pressure especially in playoffs. Kobe's probably the clutchest regular season player ever though so I imagine you are referring to playoffs.

Wtf. What do you think choking is? Playing a poor series does not mean he choked. Kobe in 04 played poorly and had one insanely clutch shot. I don't think playing poorly is a choke. 06 you mean the series where he avgd 30 6 5 or something on good % , had a gw and a gtying shot, and scored 20 or something on 50% in game 7? Who took the 2nd ranked team to a 7th game with an atrocious supporting cast? Who had a 50 pt game? Doesn't sound like choking to me.

08 and 11 are closer to being chokes. I don't mind those being considered chokes and "black marks" on kobes resume. The situation in 08 with 2 injured starters, Idk, as a kobe fan I gloss past that one. 2011 it is absolutely a black mark to miss that game winner. It turned out that shot was the entire series right there. Absolutely a black mark. Its still game 1 tho, but it can be considered a choke.



Ya. If you have a chance to hit a free throw to go up 3-0 in the finals and you miss, you choked pretty ****ing hard.

Sorry, this is not consistent at all. If Dirk choked in 07, then Kobe choked in 04. You say there is a difference between playing poorly and choking. I agree. Both Dirk and Kobe just played poorly in those years. I didn't consider it choking at all to just play like shit. You do though....and Kobe was horrendous in the 04 finals. Simple as that.

And Dirk did miss a big free throw in 06....but it would not have won the game. It was to tie the game. I doubt you even knew that. And again, if that constitutes being labeled as a choker. How about Kobe blowing a 3-1 series lead in 06 and airballing the series winning shot in game 6.

I could go on, but there is no point. Neither Dirk nor Kobe are chokers. In fact, they are two of the most clutch players ever.

Not sure where you get that Kobe is the most clutch regular season player though. Dirk's teams have much better records and efficiency numbers in tight games and Dirk is a better game winning shot maker.

[knickswin]

meh. i dont have a problem with that really, just different opinions. Do you think players individually can be clutch?

yes. In my opinion, when you are in that situation you are supposed to miss those sort of shots, so if they go in you are playing over your head. Like, half those shots Dirk took against the Thunder in the game 4 comeback were ludicrous, but they went in.

Who was that guy on the '95 Magic who missed like 4 free throws in a row? Something Anderson. Yeah, that might get the choke label from me.

[RazorBaLade]

Sorry, this is not consistent at all. If Dirk choked in 07, then Kobe choked in 04. You say there is a difference between playing poorly and choking. I agree. Both Dirk and Kobe just played poorly in those years. I didn't consider it choking at all to just play like shit. You do though....and Kobe was horrendous in the 04 finals. Simple as that.

And Dirk did miss a big free throw in 06....but it would not have won the game. It was to tie the game. I doubt you even knew that. And again, if that constitutes being labeled as a choker. How about Kobe blowing a 3-1 series lead in 06 and airballing the series winning shot in game 6.

I could go on, but there is no point. Neither Dirk nor Kobe are chokers. In fact, they are two of the most clutch players ever.

Not sure where you get that Kobe is the most clutch regular season player though. Dirk's teams have much better records and efficiency numbers in tight games and Dirk is a better game winning shot maker.

Well. I guess I'd have to elaborate. I think something like 8/20 is playing poorly. Something like 2/13 is choking. Is that weird to say? But its what I think. I'm pretty sure dirk REALLY shit the bed in the 07 series. If not, then remove it. Nevermind to it then.

I think missing big shots is choking or playing like role player level is choking when youre a star. So... For kobe we have 11 because he missed a big shot. Maybe 04, whatever, I don't think so but I have no problem with that.

Didn't realize kobe himself blew the 3-1 lead. Must have been impressive to shoot incredibly well and score tons of points and "blow the game". Lol that shot was not easy, its nothing like a free throw or an open three. I dont think lebron choked in 07 finals for example. His team was outmatched and so was kobes in 06.

I dont think they are chokers but I think dirk and kobe have choked. Dirks choke being bigger than kobes. Doesn't matter if it was a tie or not, still decided the outcome of the game.

better game winning shot maker he shot like way less so of course hes more efficient. kobe has made a ton more. he had 7 in a single season dude

[DMAVS41]

Well. I guess I'd have to elaborate. I think something like 8/20 is playing poorly. Something like 2/13 is choking. Is that weird to say? But its what I think. I'm pretty sure dirk REALLY shit the bed in the 07 series. If not, then remove it. Nevermind to it then.

I think missing big shots is choking or playing like role player level is choking when youre a star. So... For kobe we have 11 because he missed a big shot. Maybe 04, whatever, I don't think so but I have no problem with that.

Didn't realize kobe himself blew the 3-1 lead. Must have been impressive to shoot incredibly well and score tons of points and "blow the game". Lol that shot was not easy, its nothing like a free throw or an open three. I dont think lebron choked in 07 finals for example. His team was outmatched and so was kobes in 06.

I dont think they are chokers but I think dirk and kobe have choked. Dirks choke being bigger than kobes. Doesn't matter if it was a tie or not, still decided the outcome of the game.

better game winning shot maker he shot like way less so of course hes more efficient. kobe has made a ton more. he had 7 in a single season dude


there is a difference between being a choker and choking. dirk choked on the free throw in 06...but absolutely did not choke for the series.

and why is it all on dirk for blowing the lead? did he not have teammates? why does kobe get a pass and not dirk...LOL...so inconsistent.

Dirk had 30 in that game he missed the free throw.

You are labeling Dirk a choker based on one horrible series and a missed free throw. Do you know idiotic that is?

[knightfall88]

KG is probably the better player in his prime but Dirk has had a better career and thats what drives rankings

[RazorBaLade]

there is a difference between being a choker and choking. dirk choked on the free throw in 06...but absolutely did not choke for the series.

and why is it all on dirk for blowing the lead? did he not have teammates? why does kobe get a pass and not dirk...LOL...so inconsistent.

Dirk had 30 in that game he missed the free throw.

You are labeling Dirk a choker based on one horrible series and a missed free throw. Do you know idiotic that is?

im labeling dirk a choker because he choked twice. kobe& team lost the game , there was no clear 1 play where he can save the game and choked. I don't care if I have to say Kobe is a choker for choking twice in the playoffs too. Its all relative. Jordan choked 0 times IIRC, kobe and dirk choked twice, lebron in half their seasons has choked more than both combined.

I am in fact labeling dirk a choker for playing like a role player in one series and missing a ft that could have put his team up 3-0 in the finals. And kobe has choked, with the '11 shot and fine the 04 series.

Kobe has also been clutch. And so has Dirk. But its not a 5 times clutch and 2 times choke means 3 times clutch for me. I think if you choke, then you choke. Nothing can ever remove it. It doesn't really take away from the players, but in a pure head to head ranking, i HAVE to consider the fact that dirk has choked before.

[DMAVS41]

im labeling dirk a choker because he choked twice. kobe& team lost the game , there was no clear 1 play where he can save the game and choked. I don't care if I have to say Kobe is a choker for choking twice in the playoffs too. Its all relative. Jordan choked 0 times IIRC, kobe and dirk choked twice, lebron in half their seasons has choked more than both combined.

I am in fact labeling dirk a choker for playing like a role player in one series and missing a ft that could have put his team up 3-0 in the finals. And kobe has choked, with the '11 shot and fine the 04 series.

Kobe has also been clutch. And so has Dirk. But its not a 5 times clutch and 2 times choke means 3 times clutch for me. I think if you choke, then you choke. Nothing can ever remove it. It doesn't really take away from the players, but in a pure head to head ranking, i HAVE to consider the fact that dirk has choked before.

Ok, but you still seem unable to comprehend that "choking" once or twice in a career does not constitute labeling a player a "choker"....

I mean just look at what you are doing. You are saying that both Kobe and Dirk have choked...therefore they are chokers. That is absurd.

They are both two of the most clutch players of all time. The two most clutch players of the post MJ era in my opinion.

You are reaching a flawed conclusion. And somehow you want call Dirk a choker in a comparison to KG....what? That is again absurd. KG is significantly worse than Dirk in any pressure packed situation, game, or series.

For Dirk, you don't have the best record in tight games since the 05 season to go along with statistically the 2nd best crunch time and game winning offense for no reason. Dirk also boasts some of the best regular season and playoff crunch time stats along with some of the best game winnings stats of anyone.

He's also easily one of the 4 or 5 best elimination game players of all time.

And just a reminder. Kobe is 7 for 25 on game winning shots in the playoffs. Doesn't get any bigger than that....and he's missed them at an alarming rate for a player of his stature....and I might add that he's been extremely selfish in those situations and it has led to the Lakers performing much worse than they should in game winning situations.

Perception becomes reality too often here. Both Kobe and Billups are know as these amazing game winning shot makers....when in reality Kobe is 7 of 25 for his career in the playoffs and Billups is 4 of 16. LOL

[ukplayer4]

kg by a good margin, infact how is this even much of a debate?

[Jacks3]

kg by a good margin, infact how is this even much of a debate?
yup.

[Dwade305]

gay ass title

[BEAST Griffin]

better game winning shot maker he shot like way less so of course hes more efficient. kobe has made a ton more. he had 7 in a single season dude

He takes a lot more of those shots that's why he has more. He's a ball hog at the end of games and often a liability. Hero complex.

Oh and...7 in a single season?? Must've been the regular season...:roll:

And most of the time he chokes for the biggest shots in the playoffs. He should be thankful guys like Ron Artest put his airballs into the basket.

:roll: :roll:

[brisbaneman]

Dirk was better in his prime, KG will never have a postseason like Dirk's 10-11 or even 05-06.

Dirk's defense is underrated and he's a much more capable first option.

That said they are possibly the two greatest power forwards ever so you can't really go wrong either way.

[DaPerceive]

If both of these players were forced to retire today I would have to say Garnett would be ahead of Dirk but by a whiskers hair.

However, I do feel like when it is all said and done Dirk will end up being ranked above Garnett. I think now would be a little premature. Dirk still has plenty of game left in his tank while Garnett is at the twilight of his career. There is no doubt in my mind that Dirk will end up surpassing Garnett when it is all said and done.

Dirk has led his Mavericks to 50+ win seasons for 11 straight seasons now and on-going. I am curious how many other players in NBA history have accomplished that feature. It's not like Dirk is playing with all-stars every season either. The last two all-stars that Dirk has played with was Josh Howard in 2007 and Jason Kidd in 2010. Both of those players were replacements in the all-star game and not actual all-stars voted in and selected.

[Dave3]

If both of these players were forced to retire today I would have to say Garnett would be ahead of Dirk but by a whiskers hair.

However, I do feel like when it is all said and done Dirk will end up being ranked above Garnett. I think now would be a little premature. Dirk still has plenty of game left in his tank while Garnett is at the twilight of his career. There is no doubt in my mind that Dirk will end up surpassing Garnett when it is all said and done.

Dirk has led his Mavericks to 50+ win seasons for 11 straight seasons now and on-going. I am curious how many other players in NBA history have accomplished that feature. It's not like Dirk is playing with all-stars every season either. The last two all-stars that Dirk has played with was Josh Howard in 2007 and Jason Kidd in 2010. Both of those players were replacements in the all-star game and not actual all-stars voted in and selected.People will look back on Dirk and see offense. They'll look back on Garnett and see all around game. I think that's going to be the deciding factor ultimately.

[brisbaneman]

People will look back on Dirk and see offense. They'll look back on Garnett and see all around game. I think that's going to be the deciding factor ultimately.

That would make them racist then, because Dirk is a good defensive player.

People who know basketball will look at one guy as the ultimate clutch player during the stretch and the other as a guy who gets a deer in the headlights look every time the ball comes his way down the stretch

[DaPerceive]

People will look back on Dirk and see offense. They'll look back on Garnett and see all around game. I think that's going to be the deciding factor ultimately.
The same could be said when comparing Charles Barkley and Kevin McHale. But how often do you see Kevin McHale ranked over Charles Barkley? I almost never see that and if I do, I question whether they are Celtics fan or whether they know much about Charles Barkley at all.

[Dave3]

The same could be said when comparing Charles Barkley and Kevin McHale. But how often do you see Kevin McHale ranked over Charles Barkley? I almost never see that and if I do, I question whether they are Celtics fan or whether they know much about Charles Barkley at all.
McHale spent his entire career as a second option on a stacked team. Barkley spent his entire career as the clear number 1, and perennial MVP candidate, while leading his team deep into the playoff numerous times. And Barkley is not only a better scorer, but also a better rebounder, ball handler, quicker, more athletic generally, and passed the ball better. McHale's only advantage would be defense.

With the Garnett/Dirk comparison it's the complete opposite. Garnett was a much better defender, rebounder, and passer. Not to mention he was stronger, more athletic, and more versatile. Dirk's only advantages over him are scoring and clutch shooting. Usually in historical rankings, it's the person with an overwhelming quantity of advantages that's ranked higher than the other (unless certain gaps are huge, which they're not in this case).

[Dave3]

That would make them racist then, because Dirk is a good defensive player.

People who know basketball will look at one guy as the ultimate clutch player during the stretch and the other as a guy who gets a deer in the headlights look every time the ball comes his way down the stretch
Dirk is a decent defensive player, not good. And it doesn't really matter because we're talking in comparison to someone who was an amazing defender anyways, so even if Dirk was a good defender, in this comparison he still loses in that category. I'm not saying I put Garnett over Dirk because of that (I don't even know who I really have over the other in my mind), I'm just saying that this is the way it's going to be looked on by people once they retire. A line of 24/13/5/3/2 is much nicer than 26/8/3.

[brisbaneman]

Dirk is a decent defensive player, not good. And it doesn't really matter because we're talking in comparison to someone who was an amazing defender anyways, so even if Dirk was a good defender, in this comparison he still loses in that category. I'm not saying I put Garnett over Dirk because of that (I don't even know who I really have over the other in my mind), I'm just saying that this is the way it's going to be looked on by people once they retire. A line of 24/13/5/3/2 is much nicer than 26/8/3.

Stalines are pretty meaningless though in the end. it's sort of like classing someone's intelligence strictly on their grades in college.

Dirk is a good defender, and he had several 30/14/4 games in the playoffs.

It's kind of dumb OP anyways since we are talking about the (in my view) two greatest power forwards ever.

[brisbaneman]

McHale spent his entire career as a second option on a stacked team. Barkley spent his entire career as the clear number 1, and perennial MVP candidate, while leading his team deep into the playoff numerous times. And Barkley is not only a better scorer, but also a better rebounder, ball handler, quicker, more athletic generally, and passed the ball better. McHale's only advantage would be defense.

With the Garnett/Dirk comparison it's the complete opposite. Garnett was a much better defender, rebounder, and passer. Not to mention he was stronger, more athletic, and more versatile. Dirk's only advantages over him are scoring and clutch shooting. Usually in historical rankings, it's the person with an overwhelming quantity of advantages that's ranked higher than the other (unless certain gaps are huge, which they're not in this case).

He's not a better passer than Dirk and he's maybe slightly better rebounder and thats only because dirk is such a great focus of attention on offense.

[Dave3]

Stalines are pretty meaningless though in the end. it's sort of like classing someone's intelligence strictly on their grades in college.

Dirk is a good defender, and he had several 30/14/4 games in the playoffs.

It's kind of dumb OP anyways since we are talking about the (in my view) two greatest power forwards ever.
Statlines definitely aren't meaningless when comparing the same position in the same era. Anytime you make that kind of comparisons statlines dominate the argument. Plus, what are people going to look back on? Both have an MVP award, multiple first team selections (though Garnett has more), Garnett has a bunch of All NBA Defense 1st team, and a DPOY award, all to go along with his superior statline. Dirk's advantages in hindsight are the FMVP and a reputation for being more clutch.

And I assume you count Duncan as a C?

[NBAller]

Dirks amazing offense makes up for his "lack of defense".

[brisbaneman]

Statlines definitely aren't meaningless when comparing the same position in the same era. Anytime you make that kind of comparisons statlines dominate the argument. Plus, what are people going to look back on? Both have an MVP award, multiple first team selections (though Garnett has more), Garnett has a bunch of All NBA Defense 1st team, and a DPOY award, all to go along with his superior statline. Dirk's advantages in hindsight are the FMVP and a reputation for being more clutch.

And I assume you count Duncan as a C?

I consider Duncan a center, yeah. It's a shitty way to compare them because Dirk does not play for stats and his stats rise considerably in the postseason. If we were to use stats then Elton Brand could be mentioned in the same lines as garnett and dirk. there's also the fact that in the one time they faced on another in the playoffs, a very young dirk basically tore garnett a new asshole.

[DaPerceive]

McHale spent his entire career as a second option on a stacked team. Barkley spent his entire career as the clear number 1, and perennial MVP candidate, while leading his team deep into the playoff numerous times. And Barkley is not only a better scorer, but also a better rebounder, ball handler, quicker, more athletic generally, and passed the ball better. McHale's only advantage would be defense.

With the Garnett/Dirk comparison it's the complete opposite. Garnett was a much better defender, rebounder, and passer. Not to mention he was stronger, more athletic, and more versatile. Dirk's only advantages over him are scoring and clutch shooting. Usually in historical rankings, it's the person with an overwhelming quantity of advantages that's ranked higher than the other (unless certain gaps are huge, which they're not in this case).
Would you say it is impossible for Dirk to surpass Garnett in the rankings then? For me I would say Dirk just needs to play more consistent seasons in order to surpass him. There is a difference between better prime and better career. If you want to example then look no further than Barkley vs. Malone. Barkley was absolutely better than Malone in their prime. However, Malone is the one that wins on longevity. Most people usually say Malone was the greater player of the two. It depends on how much you value longevity and prime I guess.

But do you think it is impossible for Dirk to surpass Garnett? I don't think Dirk can be better than what KG was in his prime and it's not because I think Dirk is past his prime. But because I think Garnett was just too rounded like you said compared to Dirk. Dirk could try and rebound and play defense as hard as he wants but he will never get at the level Garnett was.

[Clippersfan86]

He's not a better passer than Dirk and he's maybe slightly better rebounder and thats only because dirk is such a great focus of attention on offense.

You realize KG had like 6 consecutive seasons at over 5 apg and 6 a couple times? Dirk hasn't had a single 5 assist per game season. Not to mention just watching them it's clear as day that he's a superior passer. KG's career average is 4.1 apg to Dirk's 2.7 apg. Pretty massive difference for forwards.

Also LOL on you saying KG is only a slightly better rebounder than Dirk. KG's career average in rebounds is about 11 rpg... and Dirk's is 8.5. Not to mention KG has 6 consecutive seasons where he averaged 12+ rpg and led the league twice in rebounding if I recall. Dirk's career best average in rebounding was 9.9. Dirk isn't worthy to hold KG's nuts when it comes to rebounding.

[DaPerceive]

Also LOL on you saying KG is only a slightly better rebounder than Dirk. KG's career average in rebounds is about 11 rpg... and Dirk's is 8.5. Not to mention KG has 6 consecutive seasons where he averaged 12+ rpg and led the league twice in rebounding if I recall. Dirk's career best average in rebounding was 9.9. Dirk isn't worthy to hold KG's nuts when it comes to rebounding.
Just to be fair, Dirk averages 10.4 rpg in the post-season and KG averages 11.1 so the difference is actually not that significant.

On Dirk's defense, has Garnett ever led his team to 50+ wins for 11 seasons and counting? I have a hard time believing Dirk would have three consecutive seasons of missing the post-season entirely. That is what Garnett did from 04-05 to 06-07.

[brisbaneman]

You realize KG had like 6 consecutive seasons at over 5 apg and 6 a couple times? Dirk hasn't had a single 5 assist per game season. Not to mention just watching them it's clear as day that he's a superior passer. KG's career average is 4.1 apg to Dirk's 2.7 apg. Pretty massive difference for forwards.

Also LOL on you saying KG is only a slightly better rebounder than Dirk. KG's career average in rebounds is about 11 rpg... and Dirk's is 8.5. Not to mention KG has 6 consecutive seasons where he averaged 12+ rpg and led the league twice in rebounding if I recall. Dirk's career best average in rebounding was 9.9. Dirk isn't worthy to hold KG's nuts when it comes to rebounding.

You're honestly the dumbest poster on here. garnett handles the ball a lot more than Dirk and Dirk has Kidd. if you bothered to watch dirk play, you'd see that he is an incredible passer regardless of size.

and as the other guy mentioned, their playoffs averages are about equal despite the fact dirk has played in more games.

[Clippersfan86]

Just to be fair, Dirk averages 10.4 rpg in the post-season and KG averages 11.1 so the difference is actually not that significant.

On Dirk's defense, has Garnett ever led his team to 50+ wins for 11 seasons and counting? I have a hard time believing Dirk would have three consecutive seasons of missing the post-season entirely. That is what Garnett did from 04-05 to 06-07.

Wow Dirk stans are becoming as bad as Kobe ones. Check this out..

993 career regular season games for Dirk. 124 career playoff games. Which do you think is a more accurate measuring tool of rebounding ability? Which is the bigger sampling size? People that use Dirk's playoff numbers as a crutch crack me up. I guess Reggie Miller>Kobe in that case because Reggie was an ultimate playoff performer/clutch player.

[BlackJoker23]

You're honestly the dumbest poster on here. .
shit just got real. rg going in :bowdown:

[Clippersfan86]

You're honestly the dumbest poster on here. garnett handles the ball a lot more than Dirk and Dirk has Kidd. if you bothered to watch dirk play, you'd see that he is an incredible passer regardless of size.

and as the other guy mentioned, their playoffs averages are about equal despite the fact dirk has played in more games.

I wouldn't go as far as incredible but Dirk is a very solid passer. Even before Kidd and even after Nash though when they had Devin Harris Dirk wasn't racking up assists. Stop making excuses to suck Dirk's peni*.

[Clippersfan86]

shit just got real. rg going in :bowdown:

:roll: :roll: . It's funny how dudes get brave from alternate accounts. Send me someone who actually knows something about basketball to debate with.

[brisbaneman]

shit just got real. rg going in :bowdown:

Nah I am just sick of that guy and his flat out lies. Then you have to read him slobbing on Blake Griffin's ginger balls posting all of his stats and ignoring the fact that he's the leagues biggest cherrypicker.

[brisbaneman]

:roll: :roll: . It's funny how dudes get brave from alternate accounts. Send me someone who actually knows something about basketball to debate with.

I have been posting here for years. Well before you came on here. You used to be good but then you went full of delusional with your Blake Griffining on here.

[Clippersfan86]

BTW Dirk's career usage rate is 27.. KG's is 25. So the excuse of KG having the ball more is lame. Sure KG sets players up more but that's a testament to his playmaking ability. He's got Dirk by a good margin there.

[DaPerceive]

Wow Dirk stans are becoming as bad as Kobe ones. Check this out..

993 career regular season games for Dirk. 124 career playoff games. Which do you think is a more accurate measuring tool of rebounding ability? Which is the bigger sampling size? People that use Dirk's playoff numbers as a crutch crack me up. I guess Reggie Miller>Kobe in that case because Reggie was an ultimate playoff performer/clutch player.
Don't take me out of context because I never said Dirk was as good of a rebounder or better than KG was. I just said it is not as superior as most people make out of it. Is Garnett the better rebounder? Absolutely but it's not like Dirk rebounds like Andrea Bargnani or anything like that.

Let me ask you this question now. Even though you currently believe Garnett is ranked higher above Dirk in the all-time list, is there any chance to you that Dirk surpasses him?

[Clippersfan86]

I have been posting here for years. Well before you came on here. You used to be good but then you went full of delusional with your Blake Griffining on here.

Funny thing is you and others lately that I never talk to.... keep bringing up me being a Blake Griffin homer when I haven't even made a Blake thread for weeks, and in general I spend WAY more time in non Clipper threads than I do Clippers ones. Come up with something new man :no: .

[brisbaneman]

BTW Dirk's career usage rate is 27.. KG's is 25. So the excuse of KG having the ball more is lame. Sure KG sets players up more but that's a testament to his playmaking ability. He's got Dirk by a good margin there.

No he doesn't. If you knew anything about dallas, they have been the lowest assist team from the terry to the kidd years. It's because they have no wings/twos who slash to the basket. everyone is an iso spot up shooter who depends on dirk to create them shots off the pick and roll.


if you watch some clips of the Finals you will see dirk making passes in traffic over 2-3 guys to hit teammates for looks. Garnett rarely does this--his assists come more via set plays.

[Round Mound]

I agree Dirk>McHale. I was just naming off some of the highest ranked PF's in general because Dirk is up there with those guys right now. Personally here's how I'd rank (I'm probably gonna forget one)

1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Barkley
4. KG
5. Dirk
6. Kevin McHale
7. Elvin Hayes
8. Bob Pettit
9. Dennis Rodman
10. Shawn Kemp

my list would be something like that.

Dirk is one of the most efficient and skilled players of All Time. The Best Shooting PF Ever. Kevin Garnett was a Better Rebounder, Defender and Passer. So All Around Game Wise Id`Take Garrnett but in Terms of Impact PER I`d go with Dirk

Barkley > Malone

Don`t give me the longevity crap or 1 or 2 things Malone was Better at. As A Total Player Barkley was Better from 85-95 not including his injury seasons in Houston while overweight too

[Clippersfan86]

Don't take me out of context because I never said Dirk was as good of a rebounder or better than KG was. I just said it is not as superior as most people make out of it. Is Garnett the better rebounder? Absolutely but it's not like Dirk rebounds like Andrea Bargnani or anything like that.

Let me ask you this question now. Even though you currently believe Garnett is ranked higher above Dirk in the all-time list, is there any chance to you that Dirk surpasses him?

Hard to say. If Dirk has 3-4 more seasons as an all star and wins another ring or at least makes the finals I say yes he surpasses KG probably. If he goes back to being a middle round playoff team for a couple more seasons, keeps declining and retires probably not. I don't have KG way ahead of Dirk BTW. Just one spot... so they are very close to me. It's not like I'm saying Dirk isn't worthy... but I don't want people suggesting KG doesn't have a HUGE edge in passing, defense and rebounding because he does. Just like Dirk has a pretty big edge in scoring over KG.

[Dave3]

Would you say it is impossible for Dirk to surpass Garnett in the rankings then? For me I would say Dirk just needs to play more consistent seasons in order to surpass him. There is a difference between better prime and better career. If you want to example then look no further than Barkley vs. Malone. Barkley was absolutely better than Malone in their prime. However, Malone is the one that wins on longevity. Most people usually say Malone was the greater player of the two. It depends on how much you value longevity and prime I guess.

But do you think it is impossible for Dirk to surpass Garnett? I don't think Dirk can be better than what KG was in his prime and it's not because I think Dirk is past his prime. But because I think Garnett was just too rounded like you said compared to Dirk. Dirk could try and rebound and play defense as hard as he wants but he will never get at the level Garnett was.
I guess I pick more heavily relying on prime than longevity. Otherwise people would rank KAJ over Jordan all the time. At this point what either of them do (unless Dirk repeats this season 1 or 2 more times), won't change the rankings. Players change their all time ranking based on what they do during their primes.

[brisbaneman]

Funny thing is you and others lately that I never talk to.... keep bringing up me being a Blake Griffin homer when I haven't even made a Blake thread for weeks, and in general I spend WAY more time in non Clipper threads than I do Clippers ones. Come up with something new man :no: .

Dude you made a thread telling people to stop "overrating" Dirk's postseason and claimed he never did this before, despite the fact he's been to the WCf and Finals before (only team besides spurs and lakers).

The guy won a ring with JJ freaking barea as a 2nd option half the time, and you have the nerve to belittle what he did. That's why you annoy the shit out of me. You make me actually want to root against Blake Griffin because of your absurd trolling--you even once claimed he was better than Dirk. It's garbage.

[Clippersfan86]

Dirk is one of the most efficient and skilled players of All Time. The Best Shooting PF Ever. Kevin Garnett was a Better Rebounder, Defender and Passer. So All Around Game Wise Id`Take Garrnett but in Terms of Impact PER I`d go with Dirk

Barkley > Malone

Don`t give me the longevity crap or 1 or 2 things Malone was Better at. As A Total Player Barkley was Better from 85-95 not including his injury seasons in Houston while overweight too

Start a new thread for Malone vs Barkley but I disagree. Malone had an INCREDIBLE 9 seasons of 15+ win shares... to Barkley's 3. Malone also had far more sustained team success and if not for Jordan's Bulls would have 2 rings for sure. Sure individually they were comparable but Malone had more of an impact on games on a consistent basis and more team success. I've actually never met anyone who said Barkley>Malone.

Funny thing is Malone even creamed Barkley at his own best trait. Scoring. Malone is a career 25 ppg scorer in the regular season AND playoffs. Barkley a 22 ppg regular season career scorer and 23 ppg playoffs.

[DaPerceive]

Funny thing is Malone even creamed Barkley at his own best trait. Scoring. Malone is a career 25 ppg scorer in the regular season AND playoffs. Barkley a 22 ppg regular season career scorer and 23 ppg playoffs.
Barkley's best trait was his rebounding not his scoring. Barkley had 15 consecutive seasons of averaging 10+ rpg. A feature that Shaq, Hakeem, Russell, K. Malone, Kareem, and many others were not able to accomplish.


Hard to say. If Dirk has 3-4 more seasons as an all star and wins another ring or at least makes the finals I say yes he surpasses KG probably. If he goes back to being a middle round playoff team for a couple more seasons, keeps declining and retires probably not. I don't have KG way ahead of Dirk BTW. Just one spot... so they are very close to me. It's not like I'm saying Dirk isn't worthy... but I don't want people suggesting KG doesn't have a HUGE edge in passing, defense and rebounding because he does. Just like Dirk has a pretty big edge in scoring over KG.
Fair analysis and I would say Dirk just needs 1-2 more seasons of all-star caliber play to surpass Garnett.

All-NBA First Team selections
Dirk - 4
Garnett - 4

All-NBA Second Team selections
Dirk - 5
Garnett - 3

All-NBA Third Team selections
Dirk - 2
Garnett -2

Edge: Dirk.

[Clippersfan86]

Dude you made a thread telling people to stop "overrating" Dirk's postseason and claimed he never did this before, despite the fact he's been to the WCf and Finals before (only team besides spurs and lakers).

The guy won a ring with JJ freaking barea as a 2nd option half the time, and you have the nerve to belittle what he did. That's why you annoy the shit out of me. You make me actually want to root against Blake Griffin because of your absurd trolling--you even once claimed he was better than Dirk. It's garbage.

Haha way to agenda troll. Dirk's best second option was Barea? Barea was a great 6th man, change of pace player but the Mavs were a LOADED team dude. Terry, Marion, Chandler, Kidd, Barea all were HUGE for the Mavs. My thread on overrating Dirk was based on the fact that before they won this year nobody was hyping Dirk like this and kissing his ass. Nobody was trying to throw him in the category of GOAT PF... or saying he was the best player in the game and all that other bullsh**. Now the homers are in full swing worse than Kobe and Lebron stans combined.

I don't give a flying fu** if you root against Blake Griffin. If me making a thread every few weeks turns you against the guy, that means you're mentally fragile son. Blake is a top 5 most popular player in the game right now and was the most popular story in the NBA last year along with the Heat. You think you're going to impact that or change it? The Clippers are on the way up. Either respect and understand that... or get crushed under the hype, excitement and success in the near future.

BTW... I claimed Blake was better than Dirk probably around January when Blake was averaging 26 ppg, 14 rpg and 5 apg that month. Can you blame me? I still think Blake is easily the better individual talent.

22.5 ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg

vs

23 ppg, 7 rpg, 2.5 apg

Which one looks better to you? I rank Dirk higher after his INCREDIBLE post season run but don't try to make it sound like I'm crazy for picking Griffin earlier in the season BEFORE Dirk finished off the postseason in epic fashion. In around April I started ranking my PF's as

1. Dirk
2. Amare
3. Blake

Most people unfortunately have Blake ranked 6-8 but statistically there is only 1 better PF and that's Amare. Impact wise and team success wise only Dirk outranks Amare and Blake. Besides individual rankings are irrelevant and very subjective.

[Clippersfan86]

Barkley's best trait was his rebounding not his scoring. Barkley had 15 consecutive seasons of averaging 10+ rpg. A feature that Shaq, Hakeem, Russell, K. Malone, Kareem, and many others were not able to accomplish.


Fair analysis and I would say Dirk just needs 1-2 more seasons of all-star caliber play to surpass Garnett.

All-NBA First Team selections
Dirk - 4
Garnett - 4

All-NBA Second Team selections
Dirk - 5
Garnett - 3

All-NBA Third Team selections
Dirk - 2
Garnett -2

Edge: Dirk.

Oh no doubt Barkley may have been one of the best rebounders ever. When people think of Barkley though they are likely to think of his scoring first. He could score 40 like nothing which was very rare for a PF. Barkley is more well rounded than Malone as a player.... but Malone had more impact on games ironically... and his teams won more (yes he had the 2nd best PG of all time with him for his entire career).

[brisbaneman]

Haha way to agenda troll. Dirk's best second option was Barea? Barea was a great 6th man, change of pace player but the Mavs were a LOADED team dude. Terry, Marion, Chandler, Kidd, Barea all were HUGE for the Mavs. My thread on overrating Dirk was based on the fact that before they won this year nobody was hyping Dirk like this and kissing his ass. Nobody was trying to throw him in the category of GOAT PF... or saying he was the best player in the game and all that other bullsh**. Now the homers are in full swing worse than Kobe and Lebron stans combined.

I don't give a flying fu** if you root against Blake Griffin. If me making a thread every few weeks turns you against the guy, that means you're mentally fragile son. Blake is a top 5 most popular player in the game right now and was the most popular story in the NBA last year along with the Heat. You think you're going to impact that or change it? The Clippers are on the way up. Either respect and understand that... or get crushed under the hype, excitement and success in the near future.

BTW... I claimed Blake was better than Dirk probably around January when Blake was averaging 26 ppg, 14 rpg and 5 apg that month. Can you blame me? I still think Blake is easily the better individual talent.

22.5 ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg

vs

23 ppg, 7 rpg, 2.5 apg

Which one looks better to you? I rank Dirk higher after his INCREDIBLE post season run but don't try to make it sound like I'm crazy for picking Griffin earlier in the season BEFORE Dirk finished off the postseason in epic fashion. In around April I started ranking my PF's as

1. Dirk
2. Amare
3. Blake

Most people unfortunately have Blake ranked 6-8 but statistically there is only 1 better PF and that's Amare. Impact wise and team success wise only Dirk outranks Amare and Blake. Besides individual rankings are irrelevant and very subjective.

So now the Mavs are loaded? Every single team they played in the postseason had a better collection of talent and star players and it wasn't even close. You just don't want to admit that Dirk did something than only 2 or 3 other players in history have done.

And I commend you on the revisionist history. Prior to the season no one even batted any eye at Barea, Kidd, Marion, and Terry. Suddenly they are great talent. Hilarious.

[RRR3]

Haha way to agenda troll. Dirk's best second option was Barea? Barea was a great 6th man, change of pace player but the Mavs were a LOADED team dude. Terry, Marion, Chandler, Kidd, Barea all were HUGE for the Mavs. My thread on overrating Dirk was based on the fact that before they won this year nobody was hyping Dirk like this and kissing his ass. Nobody was trying to throw him in the category of GOAT PF... or saying he was the best player in the game and all that other bullsh**. Now the homers are in full swing worse than Kobe and Lebron stans combined.

I don't give a flying fu** if you root against Blake Griffin. If me making a thread every few weeks turns you against the guy, that means you're mentally fragile son. Blake is a top 5 most popular player in the game right now and was the most popular story in the NBA last year along with the Heat. You think you're going to impact that or change it? The Clippers are on the way up. Either respect and understand that... or get crushed under the hype, excitement and success in the near future.

BTW... I claimed Blake was better than Dirk probably around January when Blake was averaging 26 ppg, 14 rpg and 5 apg that month. Can you blame me? I still think Blake is easily the better individual talent.

22.5 ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg

vs

23 ppg, 7 rpg, 2.5 apg

Which one looks better to you? I rank Dirk higher after his INCREDIBLE post season run but don't try to make it sound like I'm crazy for picking Griffin earlier in the season BEFORE Dirk finished off the postseason in epic fashion. In around April I started ranking my PF's as

1. Dirk
2. Amare
3. Blake

Most people unfortunately have Blake ranked 6-8 but statistically there is only 1 better PF and that's Amare. Impact wise and team success wise only Dirk outranks Amare and Blake. Besides individual rankings are irrelevant and very subjective.

Nonsense, m'boy, utter nonsense, wot wot! Claptrap, sheer claptrap, m'lad! Bosh, Lamarcus Aldridge, and Zach Randolph are all better than Blake. He doesn't get ranked that highly after one great (on the offensive end that is) rookie season.

[Clippersfan86]

So now the Mavs are loaded? Every single team they played in the postseason had a better collection of talent and star players and it wasn't even close. You just don't want to admit that Dirk did something than only 2 or 3 other players in history have done.

And I commend you on the revisionist history. Prior to the season no one even batted any eye at Barea, Kidd, Marion, and Terry. Suddenly they are great talent. Hilarious.

Um..... Did you watch the Mavs this year? Did you watch the playoffs? Yes the Mavs were loaded. I'm a big fan of Kidd, Chandler and Marion... so I ended up watching the Mavs as basically a second team this year and watched nearly every single playoff game and rooted for them. Name 5 more stacked NBA teams with consistent contributors and equal depth? Don't say the Lakers either because every bench player was pretty much sh** for them this year. The team had the 8th highest defensive rating in the NBA. You think that was because of Dirk???

Do you know they had 6 players with a PER of over 15 in the playoffs, the most in the NBA? Corey Brewer was a starter for the Wolves and went to 10th man for the Mavs and still had a PER of 13 in the playoffs. Look at their depth chart dude. Half of the bench would start on a handful of teams and were recent starters for teams.

[RRR3]

So now the Mavs are loaded? Every single team they played in the postseason had a better collection of talent and star players and it wasn't even close. You just don't want to admit that Dirk did something than only 2 or 3 other players in history have done.

And I commend you on the revisionist history. Prior to the season no one even batted any eye at Barea, Kidd, Marion, and Terry. Suddenly they are great talent. Hilarious.
Kidd and Marion were great talent at one point. Don't act like they weren't, swagger.

[brisbaneman]

Um..... Did you watch the Mavs this year? Did you watch the playoffs? Yes the Mavs were loaded. I'm a big fan of Kidd, Chandler and Marion... so I ended up watching the Mavs as basically a second team this year and watched nearly every single playoff game and rooted for them. Name 5 more stacked NBA teams with consistent contributors and equal depth? Don't say the Lakers either because every bench player was pretty much sh** for them this year. The team had the 8th highest defensive rating in the NBA. You think that was because of Dirk???

yes I do, and every single player on the Mavs has acknowledged it.

I watch every single mavs game despite living in Australia.

Blazers, lakers, Thunder, and Heat all had BY FAR deeper, better, more talented teams. Withou question. Dirk didn't have a 2nd or even a third option as good as those teams' 3rd, 4th or even 5th options.

[Round Mound]

Start a new thread for Malone vs Barkley but I disagree. Malone had an INCREDIBLE 9 seasons of 15+ win shares... to Barkley's 3.


:facepalm :hammerhead:

Barkley from 85-95 had a Higher Win Share than Malone.

Don`t keep comparing Barkley after 1995 to Malone because he was set to retire cause of Similar Back Problems to Bird and Busted His Knees in 97 (he couldnt play as he said) but Ainge convinced him Not to Retire :no:

Barkley had a Higher PER, Higher EFF and Higher Win Share Per 48 Minutes tha Malone the chucker and stat longevity padder

Malone also had far more sustained team success and if not for Jordan's Bulls would have 2 rings for sure.

Malone had a Better Total Defensive Team and Offensive Team:

Malone had the Best Pure Creator, Stealer and Passer of All Time Player in Stockton for All of His Career. He had the third highest Shot Blocker Ever and The Top Defender (DRT will agree) in the League in Eaton and Baily 6`11 verstaile Defender. The game was quite esaier for Malone with Stockton and Sloan designing him every bucket than for Barkley

Sure individually they were comparable but Malone had more of an impact on games on a consistent basis and more team success. I've actually never met anyone who said Barkley>Malone.

Individually they arent even comparable dummy. Most who say Barkley are older than 30 because they where there in thye 80s and till 1995 to watch both in their primes. Unlike the youngesters 25 and below

Infact Barkley was seen as the 2nd or Third Best Player in the Game after MJ in the late 80s and early 90s. Malone? Not. I have Article Proof of it

Funny thing is Malone even creamed Barkley at his own best trait.

Funny thing while it was the oppostite when both where healthy before Barkley developed the same things Bird had with a bad back and busted his knees after 1996 was that from 1985 to 1995 he use to Own Malone Head to Head

Walton himself in the 97 play-offs "Its funny to watch Malone dominate Barkley years ago it was the Opposite way"

Scoring. Malone is a career 25 ppg scorer in the regular season AND playoffs.
Barkley a 22 ppg regular season career scorer and 23 ppg playoffs

Malone was a chocker especially in the Play-Offs

Barkley shot less and shot a higher % than Malone ever did for his 22.1 PPG on 54.1% FG while Malone shot 3-5 FGAs PG more for 52% FG

The Paint FG% and Points

Season:

Two-Point FG: Barkley shot 58.13% for 21.6 PPG on Two-Point FGs on 12.9 Two-Point FGAs PG Two-Point FG: Malone shot Shot 52% for his 24.8 for like 19 Two-Point FGAs PG

In the Play-Offs i won`t even discuss Malone was a disgrace he shot 46% FG for 24.7 PPG while Barkley shot 51% FG for his 23 and in the Two- Point Region he shot 55.13% FG for his 22.5 PPG on less FGAs PG than Malone who shot 47% Two-Point FG for 1 Bucket more PG.

Barkle was Better at EVERYTHING but FT Shooting and Slightly Man To Man D

Don`t Ever Say Malone was Better cause of Impact. Barkley along Shaq are the Players with most 30 Pt 20 RB games in the Play-Offs since Wilt

[Clippersfan86]

Nonsense, m'boy, utter nonsense, wot wot! Claptrap, sheer claptrap, m'lad! Bosh, Lamarcus Aldridge, and Zach Randolph are all better than Blake. He doesn't get ranked that highly after one great (on the offensive end that is) rookie season.

It's subjective. Statistically he was better than both all while being doubled and tripled all year, something Aldridge and Zbo didn't have to worry about. I think Aldridge and Zbo had more impact on their teams probably at the end of the day but Blake was a rookie so he shouldn't have that held against him.

[DaPerceive]

yes I do, and every single player on the Mavs has acknowledged it.

I watch every single mavs game despite living in Australia.

Blazers, lakers, Thunder, and Heat all had BY FAR deeper, better, more talented teams. Withou question. Dirk didn't have a 2nd or even a third option as good as those teams' 3rd, 4th or even 5th options.
You understand Dirk Nowitzki and Tyson Chandler are different people right? Tyson Chandler was the reason why the Mavericks were so dominant defensively last season, not Dirk.

[ballup]

So now the Mavs are loaded? Every single team they played in the postseason had a better collection of talent and star players and it wasn't even close. You just don't want to admit that Dirk did something than only 2 or 3 other players in history have done.

And I commend you on the revisionist history. Prior to the season no one even batted any eye at Barea, Kidd, Marion, and Terry. Suddenly they are great talent. Hilarious.
The Mavs were loaded with a lot more serviceable players than most teams. All the regular rotation guys brought something to the table.

[Clippersfan86]

yes I do, and every single player on the Mavs has acknowledged it.

I watch every single mavs game despite living in Australia.

Blazers, lakers, Thunder, and Heat all had BY FAR deeper, better, more talented teams. Withou question. Dirk didn't have a 2nd or even a third option as good as those teams' 3rd, 4th or even 5th options.

Um... you realize when Dirk won the title he said he feels that the defense of Marion, Kidd and Chandler was the difference? That Tyson Chandler was the defensive anchor? You're looking really bad claiming the Mavs best defender is Dirk. You guys rag on Blake Griffin but do you realize his defensive rating is only 2 points worse than Dirk's????

[RRR3]

You understand Dirk Nowitzki and Tyson Chandler are different people right? Tyson Chandler was the reason why the Mavericks were so dominant defensively last season, not Dirk.
Holy mackerel, swaggie, you're arguing with yourself now? You're insane!

[brisbaneman]

It's subjective. Statistically he was better than both all while being doubled and tripled all year, something Aldridge and Zbo didn't have to worry about. I think Aldridge and Zbo had more impact on their teams probably at the end of the day but Blake was a rookie so he shouldn't have that held against him.

You're out of your ****ing mind if you think he's better than aldridge and zbo. what the hell did griffin do of significance? for as far as i am concerned he's just another shareef abdur rahim.

[Clippersfan86]

The Mavs were loaded with a lot more serviceable players than most teams. All the regular rotation guys brought something to the table.

:applause: Exactly.

[brisbaneman]

You understand Dirk Nowitzki and Tyson Chandler are different people right? Tyson Chandler was the reason why the Mavericks were so dominant defensively last season, not Dirk.

yes I do. But players have also acknowledged dirk as being a very good defensive player.

[RRR3]

It's subjective. Statistically he was better than both all while being doubled and tripled all year, something Aldridge and Zbo didn't have to worry about. I think Aldridge and Zbo had more impact on their teams probably at the end of the day but Blake was a rookie so he shouldn't have that held against him.
I do say, old bean, put down the old pipe and partake of some knowledge, wot wot! Cheerio, cheerio, park the carraige in nottingham and take the lorry to the loo, wot? Blake Griffin has yet to prove himself on the defensive end, wot? Wot wot wot wot!

[brisbaneman]

The Mavs were loaded with a lot more serviceable players than most teams. All the regular rotation guys brought something to the table.

every team they played in the playoffs was better at at least 3 of the 5 starting 5 positions.

This revisionism is insane.

[Clippersfan86]

You're out of your ****ing mind if you think he's better than aldridge and zbo. what the hell did griffin do of significance? for as far as i am concerned he's just another shareef abdur rahim.

Ask any non Clippers fan here who watched Blake. Guys like Dave3, SpecialQue, Crown and Coke. They all have mentioned Blake having that "It" factor. That greatness that you can't put into words. If you think all Blake Griffin is.. is another Rahim than you're in for a tough reality man. BTW what he did of significance is make the Clippers the talk of the NBA. Make his teammates work their asses off. It's no coincidence that DJ and Eric Gordon had breakout years next to Blake (though for Gordon the Team USA experienced helped too).

If Blake wasn't having an impact on games why have multiple coaches game planned for him? Why was he doubled all season long yet Aldridge and Zbo weren't? Why did Alvin Gentry say Blake is his MVP of the year?

[brisbaneman]

Ask any non Clippers fan here who watched Blake. Guys like Dave3, SpecialQue, Crown and Coke. They all have mentioned Blake having that "It" factor. That greatness that you can't put into words. If you think all Blake Griffin is.. is another Rahim than you're in for a tough reality man. BTW what he did of significance is make the Clippers the talk of the NBA. Make his teammates work their asses off. It's no coincidence that DJ and Eric Gordon had breakout years next to Blake (though for Gordon the Team USA experienced helped too).

If Blake wasn't having an impact on games why have multiple coaches game planned for him? Why was he doubled all season long yet Aldridge and Zbo weren't? Why did Alvin Gentry say Blake is his MVP of the year?

I love Griffin but no way in hell as he as good as those guys right now. Maybe in a year or three but not now. Not when he's in his home eating popcorn while those guys are out battling in the postseason.

[DaPerceive]

The Mavs were loaded with a lot more serviceable players than most teams. All the regular rotation guys brought something to the table.
I am not gonna lie. This is getting really annoying. Before the 2011 Playoff started who do you think actually thought that the Mavericks would have won it all? The Mavericks weren't the favorite to win either the Blazers or the Lakers series. More people believed that the Mavericks could have taken out Blazers than them taking out the Lakers though. Not a single person including Mavericks fans thought that the Mavericks would have not only beat the Lakers in the 2nd round, but sweep them.

When talking about the Mavericks before the 2011 playoffs, this is what most people said about them, "They will choke again like they will do every season." "They won't even past the 1st round against Portland." "They got past Portland but they'll get swept by the Lakers." "This team is filled with a bunch of old geezers, they will never win anything."

Now all of a sudden people are acting like they should have won all this time....

[RRR3]

Ask any non Clippers fan here who watched Blake. Guys like Dave3, SpecialQue, Crown and Coke. They all have mentioned Blake having that "It" factor. That greatness that you can't put into words. If you think all Blake Griffin is.. is another Rahim than you're in for a tough reality man. BTW what he did of significance is make the Clippers the talk of the NBA. Make his teammates work their asses off. It's no coincidence that DJ and Eric Gordon had breakout years next to Blake (though for Gordon the Team USA experienced helped too).

If Blake wasn't having an impact on games why have multiple coaches game planned for him? Why was he doubled all season long yet Aldridge and Zbo weren't? Why did Alvin Gentry say Blake is his MVP of the year?
Because apparently, based on that quote at least, he is a complete idiot.

[Clippersfan86]

I do say, old bean, put down the old pipe and partake of some knowledge, wot wot! Cheerio, cheerio, park the carraige in nottingham and take the lorry to the loo, wot? Blake Griffin has yet to prove himself on the defensive end, wot? Wot wot wot wot!

Fine I'll bite.

LaMarcus Aldridge... defensive rating 107

Blake Griffin.... defensive rating 107

Zach Randolph... defensive rating 105

Wait what? They are all the same tier of defenders? One a 9th year vet the other a 5th? Another a rookie?????? OMG.

Btw Blake had the highest stopping percentage on perimeter attempts/isolation attempts of ANY big man. He only allowed a basket 30 percent of the time in those situations. I hate having to consistently prove myself on this "OMG Blake is a terrible defender" crap. He's an average or slightly below average defender. He's a rookie and is only going to get better.

[RRR3]

Fine I'll bite.

LaMarcus Aldridge... defensive rating 107

Blake Griffin.... defensive rating 107

Zach Randolph... defensive rating 105

Wait what? They are all the same tier of defenders? One a 9th year vet the other a 5th? Another a rookie?????? OMG.

Btw Blake had the highest stopping percentage on perimeter attempts/isolation attempts of ANY big man. He only allowed a basket 30 percent of the time in those situations. I hate having to consistently prove myself on this "OMG Blake is a terrible defender" crap. He's an average or slightly below average defender. He's a rookie and is only going to get better.

I don't place much value on individual defensive rating or offensive rating. And it's not like Z-Bo and LA aren't just as good as Blake on offense either.

[Clippersfan86]

I don't place much value on individual defensive rating or offensive rating. And it's not like Z-Bo and LA aren't just as good as Blake on offense either.

Blake scored more than both despite being the only one of the 3 who commanded double teams. What does that really tell you man? I won't deny Aldridge and Zach are the more versatile scorers... but definitely not better ones. Not to mention both got outrebounded and are much worse passers. Then you factor in defense where I just showed you how they are all on the same tier and you start to understand my logic. I'm not being a homer about it. Coaches picked Blake to go to the all star game over Zach and Aldridge.. so apparently they agree with me.

[RRR3]

Blake scored more than both despite being the only one of the 3 who commanded double teams. What does that really tell you man? I won't deny Aldridge and Zach are the more versatile scorers... but definitely not better ones. Not to mention both got outrebounded and are much worse passers. Then you factor in defense where I just showed you how they are all on the same tier and you start to understand my logic. I'm not being a homer about it. Coaches picked Blake to go to the all star game over Zach and Aldridge.. so apparently they agree with me.
Coaches picked Kobe first team all d.

[Clippersfan86]

Coaches picked Kobe first team all d.

Actually no they didn't. The voting for All NBA teams and individual awards are done by a panel of sportswriters and broadcasters.

[ballup]

every team they played in the playoffs was better at at least 3 of the 5 starting 5 positions.

This revisionism is insane.
Serviceable Mavs: Kidd, Stevenson, Barea, Terry, Chandler, Haywood
Serviceable Lakers: Bynum, Odom, Barnes? (and this is a stretch)
Serviceable Blazers: Miller, Camby, Mathews, Roy, Batum
Serviceable Thunder: Harden, Sefolosha, Ibaka, Collison
Serviceable Heat: Haslem, Miller (this season alone is a stretch), Big Z?

Now are you really going to take Kobe's/Gasol's, LA's/Wallace's, Durant's/Westbrook's, or the Heatles' supporting cast over Dirks?

The Mavs were better than the Lakers at the 1, 3, and 4 spots. Better than the Blazers at the 1, 4, and 5 spots. Better than the Thunder at the 2, 4, and 5 spots. Better than the Heat at the 1, 4, and 5 spots. Did I also forget to mention that the Mavs had better overall depth than all of these teams?

[RRR3]

Serviceable Mavs: Kidd, Stevenson, Barea, Terry, Chandler, Haywood
Serviceable Lakers: Bynum, Odom, Barnes? (and this is a stretch)
Serviceable Blazers: Miller, Camby, Mathews, Roy, Batum
Serviceable Thunder: Harden, Sefolosha, Ibaka, Collison
Serviceable Heat: Haslem, Miller (this season alone is a stretch), Chalmers

Now are you really going to take Kobe's/Gasol's, LA's/Wallace's, Durant's/Westbrook's, or the Heatles' supporting cast over Dirks?

The Mavs were better than the Lakers at the 1, 3, and 4 spots. Better than the Blazers at the 1, 4, and 5 spots. Better than the Thunder at the 2, 4, and 5 spots. Better than the Heat at the 1, 4, and 5 spots. Did I also forget to mention that the Mavs had better overall depth than all of these teams?

fixed. :rockon:

[brisbaneman]

I am not gonna lie. This is getting really annoying. Before the 2011 Playoff started who do you think actually thought that the Mavericks would have won it all? The Mavericks weren't the favorite to win either the Blazers or the Lakers series. More people believed that the Mavericks could have taken out Blazers than them taking out the Lakers though. Not a single person including Mavericks fans thought that the Mavericks would have not only beat the Lakers in the 2nd round, but sweep them.

When talking about the Mavericks before the 2011 playoffs, this is what most people said about them, "They will choke again like they will do every season." "They won't even past the 1st round against Portland." "They got past Portland but they'll get swept by the Lakers." "This team is filled with a bunch of old geezers, they will never win anything."

Now all of a sudden people are acting like they should have won all this time....


exactly. just a few months ago JJ barea would have been described on here as a short white guy who can't guard, marion as a has-been, kidd as a corpse, deshawn as garbage...now all a sudden dirk has the greatest cast ever. clearly better than kobe and gasol, a blazers team filled with talent, durant-westbrook-harden, and lebron-wade-bosh. it's laughable to assert that this mavs team was remotely as talented as any team they beat in the postseason.

[brisbaneman]

Serviceable Mavs: Kidd, Stevenson, Barea, Terry, Chandler, Haywood
Serviceable Lakers: Bynum, Odom, Barnes? (and this is a stretch)
Serviceable Blazers: Miller, Camby, Mathews, Roy, Batum
Serviceable Thunder: Harden, Sefolosha, Ibaka, Collison
Serviceable Heat: Haslem, Miller (this season alone is a stretch), Big Z?

Now are you really going to take Kobe's/Gasol's, LA's/Wallace's, Durant's/Westbrook's, or the Heatles' supporting cast over Dirks?

The Mavs were better than the Lakers at the 1, 3, and 4 spots. Better than the Blazers at the 1, 4, and 5 spots. Better than the Thunder at the 2, 4, and 5 spots. Better than the Heat at the 1, 4, and 5 spots. Did I also forget to mention that the Mavs had better overall depth than all of these teams?

This is just wrong.

Blazers were better at the point-miller, two-matthews, three is probably a wash and center is a wash.

lakers were better at every single position except PF and gasol is not that much worse than dirk.

thunder were better at every position except the 4 and 5, heat obviously were better at every position except 2.

Also, depth in the playoffs is overrated as generally there is a shorter rotation.

This revisionism is insane.

Had any other player but Dirk done what he did, you'd be hailing it as remarkable.

[Go Getter]

KG was the better overall player in his prime imo. But I'd still take Dirk any day of the week and twice on Sundays to start a team with.


You'd start a franchise with Dirk over prime KG who could anchor a defense? Bad move buddy.

[brisbaneman]

You'd start a franchise with Dirk over prime KG who could anchor a defense? Bad move buddy.

It took garnett two HOfers to win a ring, whereas Dirk won with a team of 3rd and 4th options.

Your argument is lacking.

[NBAller]

You'd start a franchise with Dirk over prime KG who could anchor a defense? Bad move buddy.


It's a no brainer to me.

On the flip side, KG can't 'anchor' an offense like Dirk can.

[DaPerceive]

You'd start a franchise with Dirk over prime KG who could anchor a defense? Bad move buddy.
.....and Dirk was able to close out games something Garnett wasn't able to do because he was always passive in those situations. Do you want to know why Garnett was never able to even get past the 1st round in the playoffs until 2004?? It was because he was the one that was suppose to close out games and he never had that ability.

I dont see what is so crazy about taking Dirk over KG either. Dirk has led his team to 50+ wins for 11 straight seasons and on going (from 2000-active). Garnett from 2005 to 2007 missed the playoffs for three consecutive seasons.

And please, don't give me that Garnett played with a bunch of tomato cans line. It's not like Dirk's supporting cast was much better. The last legitimate all-star that Dirk Nowitzki played with was Steve Nash in 2003. The last two all-stars that Dirk played with were Jason Kidd (2010) and Josh Howard (2007). And both of them were just replacements in the all-star game for injuries.


Go ahead and find me another all-time great that missed the playoffs for three seasons. It doesn't even have to be three consecutive seasons but just three seasons total. What makes it worse is that Garnett was in his prime at the time.



Garnett would be a better complimentary player (2nd/3rd/etc. option) but Dirk would be a better 1st option.

[ballup]

This is just wrong.

Blazers were better at the point-miller, two-matthews, three is probably a wash and center is a wash.

lakers were better at every single position except PF and gasol is not that much worse than dirk.

thunder were better at every position except the 4 and 5, heat obviously were better at every position except 2.

Also, depth in the playoffs is overrated as generally there is a shorter rotation.

This revisionism is insane.

Had any other player but Dirk done what he did, you'd be hailing it as remarkable.
Beyond Miller, you have Patty Mills. I'd take Kidd and Barrea over those two any day. May I remind you that the Blazers did not have a suitable backup for Camby while the Mavs had Chandler and Haywood, both being solid centers in today's league? And I even stated that the Blazers were better at the 2. I wouldn't even consider them that much better at the 2 considering Roy's status.

The Lakers were better than the Mavs at the point?:roll: Even Laker fans on ISH would smack you for saying that. Both Artest and Barnes were horrendous considering their reasonable expectations. Peja is the worst player of the 3s, but he at least fulfilled his role. You can call it a wash if you'd like, but Marion definitely played better than Barnes and Artest did combined.

The Thunder's 2 guards and the Mav's 2 guards are relatively close. It can go either way. The Thunder tie the Mavs in their talent matchup, I'll concede to that. You missed that Lebron > Marion/Peja. The Heat were better at 2 positions.

And depth is not overrated in the playoffs. You need 8-9 solid contributors on a team and the Mavs had the best overall 1-9 rotation players. It's one of the reasons why the Mavs won in the playoffs.

Your underrating of the Mav's squad is insane. None of them played like scrubs, but you are acting like Dirk needs to get a chiropractor after their run.

[brisbaneman]

Beyond Miller, you have Patty Mills. I'd take Kidd and Barrea over those two any day. May I remind you that the Blazers did not have a suitable backup for Camby while the Mavs had Chandler and Haywood, both being solid centers in today's league? And I even stated that the Blazers were better at the 2. I wouldn't even consider them that much better at the 2 considering Roy's status.

The Lakers were better than the Mavs at the point?:roll: Even Laker fans on ISH would smack you for saying that. Both Artest and Barnes were horrendous considering their reasonable expectations. Peja is the worst player of the 3s, but he at least fulfilled his role. You can call it a wash if you'd like, but Marion definitely played better than Barnes and Artest did combined.

The Thunder's 2 guards and the Mav's 2 guards are relatively close. It can go either way. The Thunder tie the Mavs in their talent matchup, I'll concede to that. You missed that Lebron > Marion/Peja. The Heat were better at 2 positions.

And depth is not overrated in the playoffs. You need 8-9 solid contributors on a team and the Mavs had the best overall 1-9 rotation players. It's one of the reasons why the Mavs won in the playoffs.

Your underrating of the Mav's squad is insane. None of them played like scrubs, but you are acting like Dirk needs to get a chiropractor after their run.

So does Batum not exist? or Roy?

Harden at the 2 is far better than anyone on Dallas. then there's maynor and collison who's arguably better than chandler.

[ballup]

So does Batum not exist? or Roy?

Harden at the 2 is far better than anyone on Dallas.
That's why I said the Blazers were better at the 2 and 3. I also listed both Batum and Roy as serviceable role players in my earlier post. :facepalm

Harden isn't leaps and bounds better than Terry. They are relatively close to one another in terms of talent. If anything, Terry is slightly better than Harden.

[brisbaneman]

That's why I said the Blazers were better at the 2 and 3. I also listed both Batum and Roy as serviceable role players in my earlier post. :facepalm

Harden isn't leaps and bounds better than Terry. They are relatively close to one another in terms of talent. If anything, Terry is slightly better than Harden.

harden is far better ball handler, creating for others, a worse shooter, and a far better defender. it's no surprise that the thunder offense crumbled when he fouled out of game 4.

I never thought i'd see the day when a 38 yr old kidd, jj barea, and deshawn stevenson are looked at as great teammates but i have now seen it all...and people like to prop up dwight howard and yet his teammates were far better than this, he just doesn't make anyone better like dirk does. but he;s black so he gets the automatic nod.

[EnoughSaid]

KG is a true PF. If I wanted to build a team, I'd take the better defensive player.

[DaPerceive]

KG is a true PF. If I wanted to build a team, I'd take the better defensive player.
Saying you would take and build one player over another does not necessarily mean he is better though. Although in this case I would still rather build my team around Dirk instead of KG.

[ballup]

harden is far better ball handler, creating for others, a worse shooter, and a far better defender. it's no surprise that the thunder offense crumbled when he fouled out of game 4.

I never thought i'd see the day when a 38 yr old kidd, jj barea, and deshawn stevenson are looked at as great teammates but i have now seen it all...and people like to prop up dwight howard and yet his teammates were far better than this, he just doesn't make anyone better like dirk does. but he;s black so he gets the automatic nod.
Every role player of the Mavs isn't close to star material, but they are pretty solid players and they are great teammates who perform their roles well. Kidd is a distributor and a spot up shooter. Barea is a sparkplug tandem with Terry. Stevenson is a hard nosed defender who can hit the three. There's no need for them to be superstars.

Howard's teammates don't provide more as a unit then the Dirk's teammates. If anything, Howard helps his teammates more than Dirk does. Howard covers his teammates when they get beat off the dribble.

[DMAVS41]

The revisionist history going on about this Mavs team is absurd. It was a coin flip against the Blazers. Huge underdogs against the Lakers. Slight favorites against the Thunder. Then huge underdogs again against the Heat.

LOL at anyone changing what actually was the case. The truth is that the Mavs had to beat two superior teams without home court to win the title.

It was one of the most improbable title runs in NBA history.

[Odinn]

Garnett way better at defense but he wasn't that much dominant defender to make up offensive impact, especially scoring, difference.

[RRR3]

People on this board need to stop acting like Garnett couldn't score.:facepalm :facepalm

[ballup]

The revisionist history going on about this Mavs team is absurd. It was a coin flip against the Blazers. Huge underdogs against the Lakers. Slight favorites against the Thunder. Then huge underdogs again against the Heat.

LOL at anyone changing what actually was the case. The truth is that the Mavs had to beat two superior teams without home court to win the title.

It was one of the most improbable title runs in NBA history.
If you are talking about me, then don't call me a revisionist. I did not expect the Mavs to go past the WCF to be honest, but I knew that they had one of the deeper rosters in the league. I never said that the Mavs were the favorites in any of their matchups. I stated that each of their 8-9 regular rotation guys performed their role and they were the best support cast of that season.

Yes the Lakers had more starpower, but look how they performed. Their point guards and small forwards along with Gasol and Brown did not play to their expectations, which is why I think the Dirk had the better supporting cast.

[DaPerceive]

People on this board need to stop acting like Garnett couldn't score.:facepalm :facepalm
I don't think there have been any posters that have said that. Garnett was an above average scorer, yes. Regardless, Garnett was not close to Dirk in the scoring aspect at all.

An above average scorer in today would be Al Jefferson and a great scorer today would be Kevin Durant. Do you think Jefferson is close to Durant at scoring? Not at all.

[NBAller]

People on this board need to stop acting like Garnett couldn't score.:facepalm :facepalm

Just like people need to stop acting like Dirk can't play D. I mean he won't be the guy to throw your shit into the crowds, but he can play D.

:violin:

[Go Getter]

It took garnett two HOfers to win a ring, whereas Dirk won with a team of 3rd and 4th options.

Your argument is lacking.


2 HOFers?

Ray and PP were shells of their former selves by that time, especially Ray.

The Mavs were stacked, he had a HOF in Kidd, a guy that hit almost as many big shots as he did in Terry, he had a shot blocker/defensive presence in Tyson, and he had bench players like Barrea and Stevenson step up some.

Don't act like the MAVS didn't win this Championship not a team totally dependent on Dirk.

KG put in just as much work if not more work that Dirk before their perspective rings.

Go back and watch prime KG dog.


He had all the skills. ALL of them.

Dirk scores more but prime KG could have scored more, he just played basketball the right way, never forcing things, getting good shots and playing a balanced full court game.

People that say prime KG couldn't anchor a championship defense are crazy.

[Go Getter]

Just like people need to stop acting like Dirk can't play D. I mean he won't be the guy to throw your shit into the crowds, but he can play D.

:violin:


Are you saying that prime Dirk's D is even in the same stratosphere as prime KG's?:no:

[NBAller]

Are you saying that prime Dirk's D is even in the same stratosphere as prime KG's?:no:

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no.

The guy said people are acting like KG couldn't score, I said just like people are acting like Dirk literally has no D. Both aren't true. I said earlier in the thread KG's the better all around player.


No idea where you came up with that question to be honest.

[Go Getter]

.....and Dirk was able to close out games something Garnett wasn't able to do because he was always passive in those situations. Do you want to know why Garnett was never able to even get past the 1st round in the playoffs until 2004?? It was because he was the one that was suppose to close out games and he never had that ability.

I dont see what is so crazy about taking Dirk over KG either. Dirk has led his team to 50+ wins for 11 straight seasons and on going (from 2000-active). Garnett from 2005 to 2007 missed the playoffs for three consecutive seasons.

And please, don't give me that Garnett played with a bunch of tomato cans line. It's not like Dirk's supporting cast was much better. The last legitimate all-star that Dirk Nowitzki played with was Steve Nash in 2003. The last two all-stars that Dirk played with were Jason Kidd (2010) and Josh Howard (2007). And both of them were just replacements in the all-star game for injuries.


Go ahead and find me another all-time great that missed the playoffs for three seasons. It doesn't even have to be three consecutive seasons but just three seasons total. What makes it worse is that Garnett was in his prime at the time.



Garnett would be a better complimentary player (2nd/3rd/etc. option) but Dirk would be a better 1st option.

A better 1st option on OFFENSE UNDOUBTEDLY.

But as I said, KG could do more than just play d he could rebound pass like a guard and handle like one as well.

[Go Getter]

.....and Dirk was able to close out games something Garnett wasn't able to do because he was always passive in those situations. Do you want to know why Garnett was never able to even get past the 1st round in the playoffs until 2004?? It was because he was the one that was suppose to close out games and he never had that ability.

I dont see what is so crazy about taking Dirk over KG either. Dirk has led his team to 50+ wins for 11 straight seasons and on going (from 2000-active). Garnett from 2005 to 2007 missed the playoffs for three consecutive seasons.

And please, don't give me that Garnett played with a bunch of tomato cans line. It's not like Dirk's supporting cast was much better. The last legitimate all-star that Dirk Nowitzki played with was Steve Nash in 2003. The last two all-stars that Dirk played with were Jason Kidd (2010) and Josh Howard (2007). And both of them were just replacements in the all-star game for injuries.


Go ahead and find me another all-time great that missed the playoffs for three seasons. It doesn't even have to be three consecutive seasons but just three seasons total. What makes it worse is that Garnett was in his prime at the time.



Garnett would be a better complimentary player (2nd/3rd/etc. option) but Dirk would be a better 1st option.

A better 1st option on OFFENSE UNDOUBTEDLY.

But as I said, KG could do more than just play d he could rebound, pass like a guard, and handle like one as well.

I know his offensive deficiencies very well I've followed him since HS, my school played his in the city championship tourney.

Dirk's game is far more varied and potent than KGs. But other than shooting and creating shots Dirk can't offensive rebound, shoot close shots/put backs, or pass better than Garnett.

Garnett did play with a bunch of tomato cans until he had Starbury for awhile (that would have been the duo had Stephon not been a nut-case) then Spre and Sam.

Still never had a balanced team with good coaching until he got to Boston.

[with malice]

Bizarre thread. Prior to the last playoffs, it's not even a conversation... and because of that I don't really regard it as such now. One great post-season is not going to change my opinion on a player's career.
It's point-blank ridiculous to argue Dirk's defensive prowess, or whether he's a "choker" or not. Before the last post-season, where he fit on both those was very, very clear.


The revisionist history going on about this Mavs team is absurd. It was a coin flip against the Blazers. Huge underdogs against the Lakers. Slight favorites against the Thunder. Then huge underdogs again against the Heat.
This is completely true. It was a fantastic run. Amazing, and each and every player played beyond what they normally would. Including Dirk.

[DaPerceive]

One great post-season is not going to change my opinion on a player's career.
It may not to you but it will to the public eye and many others including myself. Whether you agree with that or not is totally up to you. After all it is just an opinion.

If Dirk lost to the Heat in the 2011 NBA finals his performances against the Lakers and Thunder would have been negated just like in 2006. Dirk dominated the playoffs in 06. He destroyed the Grizzlies, Spurs, and then the Suns but it was all negated because he lost to Miami. LeBron is pretty much getting the same treatment now as he should. If Dirk had to pay the price for that then so should LeBron.

Championships make the difference.

[NBAller]

So..... Kobe wins a ring and is praised/moved up in rankings, but when Dirk does it, it doesn't mean anything? He's still the same Dirk prior to last season?


Dirks performance isn't respected like it should be because he has Terry, Marion, Chandler, Kidd etc but Kobe wins with the most dominant center in the game and it's like nothing.

[Jacks3]

You're joking right? Nobody gets discredited more than Bryant, especially his rings with Shaq. :facepalm

[brisbaneman]

You're joking right? Nobody gets discredited more than Bryant, especially his rings with Shaq. :facepalm

Don't turn this into a Kobe thing, please.

The point is, Dirk won a ring with the weakest supporting cast of the 00s and now everyone is retrospectively overrating his cast.

At the same time people are acting like Dirk just started playing well, despite the fact he has made it to the Finals and WCF (only 1 of 3 teams to so out West) and averages over 25 and 10 in the postseason (only one of 4 players)

[Clippersfan86]

Don't turn this into a Kobe thing, please.

The point is, Dirk won a ring with the weakest supporting cast of the 00s and now everyone is retrospectively overrating his cast.

At the same time people are acting like Dirk just started playing well, despite the fact he has made it to the Finals and WCF (only 1 of 3 teams to so out West) and averages over 25 and 10 in the postseason (only one of 4 players)

:roll: :roll: .

Weakest supporting cast of the 00's? Try one of the strongest.

[NBAller]

:roll: :roll: .

Weakest supporting cast of the 00's? Try one of the strongest.

Nobody thought that before they won. They were the underdogs nearly every game. If Dirk had the strongest supporting cast why the hell would they be the underdogs? doesn't make sense to me.

Somebody as good as Dirk is, with supposedly that strong supporting cast surely sounds like the favorite. Wasn't the case, at all.

This is probably that garbage Dirk was referring to in his Tony Romo msg.

[Jacks3]

Don't turn this into a Kobe thing, please.

The point is, Dirk won a ring with the weakest supporting cast of the 00s and now everyone is retrospectively overrating his cast.

At the same time people are acting like Dirk just started playing well, despite the fact he has made it to the Finals and WCF (only 1 of 3 teams to so out West) and averages over 25 and 10 in the postseason (only one of 4 players)
Um, I wasn't the one who brought up Bryant. It's just hilarious...the idea that Kobe doesn't discredited. That's all.

[brisbaneman]

:roll: :roll: .

Weakest supporting cast of the 00's? Try one of the strongest.

name me ONE team they were better than. Just one. Only one I can think of is 05-06 Heat and everyone knows what happened there.

[RazorBaLade]

So..... Kobe wins a ring and is praised/moved up in rankings, but when Dirk does it, it doesn't mean anything? He's still the same Dirk prior to last season?


Dirks performance isn't respected like it should be because he has Terry, Marion, Chandler, Kidd etc but Kobe wins with the most dominant center in the game and it's like nothing.

Who says Dirks title has contributed nothing to his legacy? Btw the first 3 titles for kobe are the reason people still don't have him in Top10 lists. He's incredibly praised but lets not act like no one has ever criticized or looked down on Kobe's 3 rings with shaq.


Nobody thought that before they won. They were the underdogs nearly every game. If Dirk had the strongest supporting cast why the hell would they be the underdogs? doesn't make sense to me.

Somebody as good as Dirk is, with supposedly that strong supporting cast surely sounds like the favorite. Wasn't the case, at all.

This is probably that garbage Dirk was referring to in his Tony Romo msg.

That's like saying because MJ was not projected to be the goat when he was drafted that every year in his career he was the little guy and the underdog to win the championship. Thats silly. You judge someones skill after they play not before. Who could have known that DinoKidd had the strength to play incredible defense, that terry would have finally stopped choking and went HUGE in pivotal games? Who could have known that shawn marion and jj barea would go off as they did?

When we look back at the team, its clear that full potential wise, they are STACKED.

[RazorBaLade]

name me ONE team they were better than. Just one. Only one I can think of is 05-06 Heat and everyone knows what happened there.

Team or supporting cast? He said supporting cast you said team.........

I can name like 4 or 5 supporting casts that were worse than what dirks mavs had in '11...... But teams........ A bit harder.

[brisbaneman]

Team or supporting cast? He said supporting cast you said team.........

I can name like 4 or 5 supporting casts that were worse than what dirks mavs had in '11...... But teams........ A bit harder.

name some...

lakers/celtics/spurs/pistons--these were all more talented and deeper teams.

only the heat was worse.

[RazorBaLade]

name some...

lakers/celtics/spurs/pistons--these were all more talented and deeper teams.

only the heat was worse.

lakers 3 peat is not arguable, they were def better

pistons arguable imo, i think the mavs could have done it. lakers werent losing THAT badly considering all the stuff that was going on that the mavs simply werent having to deal with. this maybe a longshot tho

spurs... arguable. mavs beat them before with worse teams. they beat them the year prior actually in a crazy 7 game series right? well these mavs were way better, the spurs weren't much better if at all i dont remember.

lakers were really damn close to a 7 game series with the celts in 08, missing bynum and ariza and gasol not meshing. why wouldnt these mavs be able to take the celts?

lakers in 09 not arguable imo

lakers in 10 ... im gonna go with lakers > '11 mavs.

heat obv mavs have that.


So there you have it. At least 2 teams, maybe as much as 4. Lets not forget, the mavs road was not against scrubs. A better question to ask maybe is which finals loser was worse than a team with bron wade and bosh? Certainly not the 3 lakers opponents, certainly not the 06 mavs, certainly not the 07 cavs... Thats 5 teams already.. Thats some pretty tough competition to take care of in 6 games.

[brisbaneman]

lakers 3 peat is not arguable, they were def better

pistons arguable imo, i think the mavs could have done it. lakers werent losing THAT badly considering all the stuff that was going on that the mavs simply werent having to deal with. this maybe a longshot tho

spurs... arguable. mavs beat them before with worse teams. they beat them the year prior actually in a crazy 7 game series right? well these mavs were way better, the spurs weren't much better if at all i dont remember.

lakers were really damn close to a 7 game series with the celts in 08, missing bynum and ariza and gasol not meshing. why wouldnt these mavs be able to take the celts?

lakers in 09 not arguable imo

lakers in 10 ... im gonna go with lakers > '11 mavs.

heat obv mavs have that.


So there you have it. At least 2 teams, maybe as much as 4. Lets not forget, the mavs road was not against scrubs. A better question to ask maybe is which finals loser was worse than a team with bron wade and bosh? Certainly not the 3 lakers opponents, certainly not the 06 mavs, certainly not the 07 cavs... Thats 5 teams already.. Thats some pretty tough competition to take care of in 6 games.

I agree the Mavs could have beat them all...my question though was which team was this year's Mavs actually more talented than?

Because to me Dirk had a hakeem-like performance, and basically made a bunch of 3rd/4th options play better than they could have imagined.

i remember before the playoffs everyone was calling deshawn and barea garbage, kidd and marion corpses, and terry a playoffs dud--now it's like all a sudden Dirk has this amazing cast.

I would have LOVED to see this mavs team go up against the 01-02 lakers. that would be a great series

[RazorBaLade]

I agree the Mavs could have beat them all...my question though was which team was this year's Mavs actually more talented than?

Because to me Dirk had a hakeem-like performance, and basically made a bunch of 3rd/4th options play better than they could have imagined.

i remember before the playoffs everyone was calling deshawn and barea garbage, kidd and marion corpses, and terry a playoffs dud--now it's like all a sudden Dirk has this amazing cast.

I would have LOVED to see this mavs team go up against the 01-02 lakers. that would be a great series

Well.. Like I said to NBAller.... Is it fair to judge a team before they play? Why would we gauge their talent BEFORE these group of guys played in the playoffs? For example, everyone was calling barea garbage. He played great. Is he now going to be referred to as garbage or as a great role player that year? I gotta go with great role player.

Going into the 04 playoffs no one gave the pistons a chance. No one thought they would beat LA. So if you look at the mavs from a before playoffs standpoint, we gotta look at them all like that... And that opens the door to the mavs again being better talent wise to maybe 2 or so teams. all imo of course.

[brisbaneman]

Well.. Like I said to NBAller.... Is it fair to judge a team before they play? Why would we gauge their talent BEFORE these group of guys played in the playoffs? For example, everyone was calling barea garbage. He played great. Is he now going to be referred to as garbage or as a great role player that year? I gotta go with great role player.

Going into the 04 playoffs no one gave the pistons a chance. No one thought they would beat LA. So if you look at the mavs from a before playoffs standpoint, we gotta look at them all like that... And that opens the door to the mavs again being better talent wise to maybe 2 or so teams. all imo of course.

I guess we will see if Barea gets traded and what happens. we all saw what happened to devin harris, desegana diop, adrian griffin, and josh howard when they were no longer playing with dirk...

I think people are missing or ignoring the point--this all happened because of Dirk. at some point folks have to just respect the fact that he was easily the nba's best player.

[LJJ]

name me ONE team they were better than. Just one. Only one I can think of is 05-06 Heat and everyone knows what happened there.

I think the 03 Spurs were worse.

Parker, Jackson & Ginobili were on the team, but all well before they became established good players. Ancient David Robinson on the team. That championship was ALL Duncan.

That's it though. Other than the 03 Spurs all of the other championship supporting casts were better without question.

[brisbaneman]

I think the 03 Spurs were worse.

Parker, Jackson & Ginobili were on the team, but all well before they became established good players. Ancient David Robinson on the team. That championship was ALL Duncan.

That's it though. Other than the 03 Spurs all of the other championship supporting casts were better without question.

oddly they beat a mavs team sans-Dirk and only because Steve Kerr went apeshit in game 6.

[RazorBaLade]

I guess we will see if Barea gets traded and what happens. we all saw what happened to devin harris, desegana diop, adrian griffin, and josh howard when they were no longer playing with dirk...

I think people are missing or ignoring the point--this all happened because of Dirk. at some point folks have to just respect the fact that he was easily the nba's best player.

I can't give credit to dirk for how barea played... I mean sure maybe 10,20% credit for leadership, trust, creating opportunities but he didnt shoot or pass for barea....... I wouldn't blame dirk if barea came out there and went 1/20 in the playoffs total, I'm not gonna credit dirk much if barea comes out there and knows his role, plays it perfectly and makes teardrops over bynum.

i still am not sure how that influences your opinion though... surely Duncans supporting cast was a byproduct of duncan and lakers supporting cast played well mostly because of Kobe right? So how do they come out over mavs talent wise?

[rmt]

Don't turn this into a Kobe thing, please.

The point is, Dirk won a ring with the weakest supporting cast of the 00s and now everyone is retrospectively overrating his cast.

At the same time people are acting like Dirk just started playing well, despite the fact he has made it to the Finals and WCF (only 1 of 3 teams to so out West) and averages over 25 and 10 in the postseason (only one of 4 players)

IMO, Spurs 03 was the weakest supporting cast of the 00s. 2nd year Parker (1 year playoff experience), streaky SJax and rookie Manu (both with no playoff experience) were the #2,3 and 4 options after Duncan.

Heat 06 was also weak - other than Shaq - they were nowhere near as deep as 11 Mavs.

[with malice]

Heat 06 was also weak - other than Shaq - they were nowhere near as deep as 11 Mavs.
"...as deep..."? You're kidding, right? Unless you're acknowledging that every single one of them - Dirk included - played beyond what would be normally expected of those guys, then to call them "deep" is a misnomer.

I am continually surprised by the talk of the Mavs around here. Other than what occurred last post-season, they have not come close to this level of play. I guess in the coming seasons we'll see which is the anomaly.

Don't get me wrong: I think they played amazingly. And yes: Dirk was the best player on the floor for the duration of the playoffs. I just don't expect a repeat.