Who is the Greatest Of All Time For You?

[N0Skillz]

Now some rules first.

Don't Lie, who do you really think was the best person to ever play basketball.

No hate, the sport of Basketball has been lucky enough to be blessed with many Basketball players.

No era BS, say the name or names and give a reason.


So I'll go first.


I Believe Shaq or KAJ (Im split) where the best players to ever live

KAJ
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/multimedia/photo_gallery/1003/nba.toughest.records.to.break/images/kareem-abdul-jabbar.jpg


Reason : He Averaged 20+ Points Per Game For 17 YEARS. Amazing Hook Shot


Shaq
http://counterkicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/stokes-life-dallas-stokes-shaq-vs-bynum-part-one-10.jpg

Reason : He is the most dominant player I have ever seen. If he was on the floor in any game during his Lakers Years you would feel it.

14 Years 20+ Points Per Game
Most Dominant Playoff performer ever.

[chris2010]

Jordan. But a Slim Margin over Bird and Magic respectively.

[Mr. Jabbar]

KAJ or Jordan. I can live with any of those being the GOAT really.

[elementally morale]

Kareem

[sirkeelma]

Chris Dudley. Because of his defense.

[sh0wtime]

Bill Russel.

Why? His championship legacy, his rebounding/clutch legacy, his defensive legacy, his productions, achievements, accomplishments, awards, milestones, records and impact on the game.

Bill Russell won 11 championship rings. With that being said I am counting the 2 he won as a player-coach, thats right he played and coached at the same time. These 11 NBA championships were won in 13 NBA seasons. Which means that around 85% of the time that Bill Russell was in the NBA, he won an NBA championship.

[N0Skillz]

Chris Dudley. Because of his defense.


Didn't he barely lose the governor race in Oregon a few months ago? Or is that a different Dudley?

[gengiskhan]

Jordan: The one who "transcended" the Game that now all the current best players copy. Kobe, lebron, wade etc etc etc

Magic: The one who "transformed" the game. He controlled the game from get go. He decided the outcome. He made everyone around him better including greats like Jabbar & Worthy. No one ever ran "offense" better than him ever in NBA history.

Bird: The one who "transformed" the game. showed how the game is played with highest IQ. showed how to control the game without the ball with no athletic ability. the most instinctive player game has ever seen. his clutchness, shooting touch & footwork combination was deadly.

Wilt: we all know why

Kareem: we also know why

enuf said.

[jbryan1984]

Its really hard to pigeon hole it to one cause of the different styles......

All Around: Michael Jordan
Most Dominant: Shaquille O'Neal
Best Pure Shooter: Larry Bird
Most Clutch: Kobe Bryant
Best Passer: John Stockton
Boards: Dennis Rodman

[SoCalMike]

Magic Johnson...everything about him...




:pimp:

[Vince15]

mj

[Derka]

For me it was a toss up between Larry and Magic with most of the favor for Larry. Mine was a strong Celtics household growing up when I discovered the game and that's who we wanted to play the game like.

To me there was no one better than those two although watching Michael Jordan was pretty exciting.

[Walduś]

kobe kobe kobe

[magnax1]

Jordan, with a pretty huge gap after him. Nobody dominated the game as much as him.

[Patrick Chewing]

Jordan and Wilt

[bdreason]

Kareem.

[jlip]

I personally feel that there are two general ways to play b-ball.
A)Being a dominant individual performer. Most often the results of this style of play are seen by looking at a player's individual stats.
B)Playing the game in a way where your ultimate objective is to improve your teammates' quality of play. Many times the results of this can be seen more by looking at a player's teammates' stats and performances.

So here is my list based upon those two styles of play (in no particular order):

A) Wilt, Kareem, MJ and maybe a prime Dr.J
B) Magic and Russell

IMO Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird tend to combine the two styles.

[Inactive]

All Around: Michael Jordan


Most Dominant: Wilt
Most Creative: Pete Maravich
Most Clutch: Michael Jordan
Best Passer: John Stockton
Best Rebounder: Dennis Rodman
Best Shooter: Reggie Miller.
Best Defense: Hakeem? KAJ? Russel? Not sure.

[Lebron23]

Michael Jeffrey Jordan

http://www.layoutlocator.com/graphics/dldimg/e41d19b06891640dc845a68af85b1d34_jordan10831070145 05.gif

[LilBTheBasedGod]

Jordan.

[SHEED_ gangsta]

Joey Graham

[Lebron23]

Best PG: Magic Johnson
Best SG: Michael Jordan
Best SF: Larry Bird
Best PF: Tim Duncan
Best Center: Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Best Coach: Phil Jackson

[DeronMillsap]

Michael Jordan with Andrei Kirilenko not far behind.

I like Chris Webber too. Greatest versatile player of all-time.

[SHEED_ gangsta]

k no seriously Oscar Robertson. averaging a triple double is gangst

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Michael Jordan: For what he did for the game of basketball. He made it a global industry. Besides that, it was because he knew the game of basketball better than anyone and combined his skill with his crazy athleticism instead of just relying on his athleticism alone. Forget his numbers, trophy's and records. His mental aspect of basketball is what I respect him for most.

[eppelp]

imo it's between Jordan, Kareem, Wilt and Russell.:bowdown:

[wpdougie2180]

As an individual basketball player the only choice is Wilt. He did absolutely everything u can ask a single basketball player (score, defend, assist, rebound, shoot high %s)

But if you like to go with the whole winning thing it's Bill Russell because not only did he win 11 rings he did everything to win those rings. Whatever was needed he always go it done. There was never an excuse (other than the 1 game 7 he missed because of injury) he just always did what was needed to win and at the end of the day that's what it's all about.

[SHEED_ gangsta]

did he average a triple double?

[Ne 1]

Michael Jordan: For what he did for the game of basketball. He made it a global industry. Besides that, it was because he knew the game of basketball better than anyone and combined his skill with his crazy athleticism instead of just relying on his athleticism alone. Forget his numbers, trophy's and records. His mental aspect of basketball is what I respect him for most.


Sorry but Jordan isn't the greatest.

The only criteria that puts Jordan #1 is endorsements and popularity.

If you disagree, that is your choice, but please have a well-defined reason as to why Jordan is the best ever. As you will see, for Jordan, there is no standard. His claim to the best ever is based on popularity, media-hype, and endorsements, with a few weak arguments thrown in for good measure.

[az00m]

Michael Jordan.

G.O.A.T

You can argue this kareem, wilt and other top centers were better than him though. Because each person dominated the game in a different fashion.

[N0Skillz]

mj

which one 0.o

[OldSchoolBBall]

Shaq

Most Dominant Playoff performer ever.

No, that would be Jordan.

[Lebron23]

did he average a triple double?


He almost averaged a triple double in the 1989 NBA Season. 32 ppg, 8 rpg, and 8 apg, 53.8 FG% ( Holy $Hit)

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Sorry but Jordan isn't the greatest.

The only criteria that puts Jordan #1 is endorsements and popularity.

If you disagree, that is your choice, but please have a well-defined reason as to why Jordan is the best ever. As you will see, for Jordan, there is no standard. His claim to the best ever is based on popularity, media-hype, and endorsements, with a few weak arguments thrown in for good measure.

That's my point. What he did for basketball is what sets him apart from everyone else. Besides it's just an opinion :confusedshrug:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Sorry but Jordan isn't the greatest.

The only criteria that puts Jordan #1 is endorsements and popularity.

If you disagree, that is your choice, but please have a well-defined reason as to why Jordan is the best ever. As you will see, for Jordan, there is no standard. His claim to the best ever is based on popularity, media-hype, and endorsements, with a few weak arguments thrown in for good measure.

Such rubbish.

Jordan was DOMINANT statistically for over a decade by all metrics (only 2 other players in history even compare - Wilt and KAJ; no coincidence they're all considered top 3 players generally).

Jordan has the second most rings of any GOAT candidate, and all of his came as the unequivocal best player on his team. He has two 3-peats to his name, and had a chance to win 8 rings in 8 seasons had he not retired; he won a title in every full season he played after 1990. Staggeringly dominant.

Jordan was a DOMINANT 2-way player, unlike the other non-big GOAT candidates. Had 9 defensve first team selections, a DPOY, and finished top 6 in DPOY voting for like 9 straight seasons. Voted DPOY by the coaches in 3 seasons ('88, '90 and '93).

Jordan has 5 MVP's (second most in history) and would have had 7 if not for voter malaise. He has the highest MVP shares in history.

Jordan holds numerous regular season and playoff records (second most by a large margin over #3).

Jordan is one of only 2-3 players in history who could be legitimately argued as the best player in the league in seasons 10 years apart (KAJ and perhaps Wilt).

Jordan is the best playoff and Finals performer in history, bar none.

Jordan led teams to the best, second best, and 3rd best records of all time.


None of these things have anything to do with "endorsements" or "hype." So my answer is that Jordan is the best player ever.

[N0Skillz]

No, that would be Jordan.

My Fav
28 pts, 20 rebs, 9 assts and 8 blocks.

Around 60% shooting
2000 Finals

game 1 43pts 19 rbs 4 ast
game 2 40- 24 rbs 4 asts
game 3 33pts 13 rbs 2 stls 2 blks
game 4 36 pts 21 rbs 2 blks
game 5 35pts 11rbs 2blks 2 stls
game 6 41 pts 12 rbs 4 blks

[Lebron23]

No, that would be Jordan.

Shaq had a case for being one of the greatest playoffs and finals performer in NBA History.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/gallery/01playoffs/06-15-oneal-mvp.jpg

2000 Finals

38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.67 bpg .611 FG% 6 games W

2001 Finals

33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.40 bpg, .573 FG% 5 games W


2002 Finals

36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.75 bpg, .595 FG% 4 games W

Playoffs Stats

2000 NBA Playoffs


30.7 ppg on 56.6 FG%, 15.4 ppg, 3.1 apg, , 2.4 bpg

2001 NBA Playoffs

30.4 ppg on 55.5 FG%, 15.4 ppg, 3.2 apg, 2.4 bpg,

2002 NBA Playoffs

28.5 ppg on 52.9 FG%, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.6 bpg.

[tpols]

Shaq had a case for being one of the greatest playoffs and finals performer in NBA History.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/gallery/01playoffs/06-15-oneal-mvp.jpg

2000 Finals

38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.67 bpg .611 FG% 6 games W

2001 Finals

33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.40 bpg, .573 FG% 5 games W


2002 Finals

36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.75 bpg, .595 FG% 4 games W

Playoffs Stats

2000 NBA Playoffs


30.7 ppg on 56.6 FG%, 15.4 ppg, 3.1 apg, , 2.4 bpg

2001 NBA Playoffs

30.4 ppg on 55.5 FG%, 15.4 ppg, 3.2 apg, 2.4 bpg,

2002 NBA Playoffs

28.5 ppg on 52.9 FG%, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.6 bpg.
Eh.. he's been swept out of the playoffs 4 or 5 times and his playoff resume doesn't even touch jordan's.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Eh.. he's been swept out of the playoffs 4 or 5 times and his playoff resume doesn't even touch jordan's.


You forget Jordan's early years against Boston? :confusedshrug:

[code green]

It's Jordan, and I'm not going to even bother arguing why, because it's been done to death.

5-time NBA MVP
6-time NBA Champion
10 Scoring Titles
10 All NBA 1st-Team
9 Time NBA All Defensive 1st-Team
1 NBA Defensive Player of the Year Winner
14 All Star Games
2 Olympic Gold Medals
30 PPG in the regular season, and 33.4 PPG in career playoff games.

All i can say is during some of the best times in the NBA, he made both ends of the court, and everyone on it his bitch. End of discussion.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Shaq had a case for being one of the greatest playoffs and finals performer in NBA History.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/gallery/01playoffs/06-15-oneal-mvp.jpg

2000 Finals

38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 2.67 bpg .611 FG% 6 games W

2001 Finals

33.0 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.40 bpg, .573 FG% 5 games W


2002 Finals

36.3 ppg, 12.3 rpg, 3.8 apg, 2.75 bpg, .595 FG% 4 games W

Playoffs Stats

2000 NBA Playoffs


30.7 ppg on 56.6 FG%, 15.4 ppg, 3.1 apg, , 2.4 bpg

2001 NBA Playoffs

30.4 ppg on 55.5 FG%, 15.4 ppg, 3.2 apg, 2.4 bpg,

2002 NBA Playoffs

28.5 ppg on 52.9 FG%, 12.6 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.6 bpg.

Yes, Shaq's best 3 postseasons/Finals compare to Jordan's (though MJ's are still better), but Jordan did it for 6-7 postseasons. That's my point - he's easily the best playoff performer in history.

[97 bulls]

Jordan is the greatest ever. Like I've always said, jordan is the onlt player that I can honestly say had no weakness. Every other player has some form of weakness that hurts their ranking

[Chris Quinn]

my homie dorell or MY SELF

[The Iron Fist]

Michael Jordan: For what he did for the game of basketball. He made it a global industry. Besides that, it was because he knew the game of basketball better than anyone and combined his skill with his crazy athleticism instead of just relying on his athleticism alone. Forget his numbers, trophy's and records. His mental aspect of basketball is what I respect him for most.


Does he make it a global industry if he played in the mid 60s to 70s instead?

You know, the era before cable tv, mass marketing, endorsements, etc?

I can say with 100% certainty,

no he wouldn't have.





As far as my GOAT,

Kareem. Dominated and knew basketball at every level, not just one.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Its really hard to pigeon hole it to one cause of the different styles......

All Around: Michael Jordan
Most Dominant: Shaquille O'Neal
Best Pure Shooter: Larry Bird
Most Clutch: Kobe Bryant
Best Passer: John Stockton
Boards: Dennis Rodman

Jaw drop @ no Magic

[che guevara]

Its really hard to pigeon hole it to one cause of the different styles......

All Around: Michael Jordan
Most Dominant: Shaquille O'Neal
Best Pure Shooter: Larry Bird
Most Clutch: Kobe Bryant
Best Passer: John Stockton
Boards: Dennis Rodman
Wow.


Does he make it a global industry if he played in the mid 60s to 70s instead?

You know, the era before cable tv, mass marketing, endorsements, etc?

I can say with 100% certainty,

no he wouldn't have.





As far as my GOAT,

Kareem. Dominated and knew basketball at every level, not just one.
:oldlol: What a joke. Kareem has a good case for GOAT (can't go wrong with him or Jordan), but if you're resorting to this it's just pathetic. Yes, leading a team to a High School championship is just as impressive as leading a team to an NBA championship.

And no, he didn't dominate at all levels - never played in the Olympics.

[imlmf]

michael air jordan

played the game to perfection, squeezed out every bit of his amazing potential with dedication an hardwork. somebody who i can't remember put it best: one in a million talent combined with one in a million hardwork

has a case to make for both the best ever scorer and best ever defending guard
has both the skillsets and the killer mindset
has the stat and the achievement
his game was both graceful and effective

think about it, this guy's career is legendary, wins 3 straight championships, get bored with the league, goes on to pursue something else, comes back in almost 2 years without playing basketball, and still dominates the league like it's his bish, wins another 3peat.

the only knock to his nba career to me is his return to the wizards, which is not that bad, he performed at a level that nobody have done at that age.

you can't make up a fictional character that's better than him.

[The Iron Fist]

Wow.

[/b]
:oldlol: What a joke. Kareem has a good case for GOAT (can't go wrong with him or Jordan), but if you're resorting to this it's just pathetic. Yes, leading a team to a High School championship is just as impressive as leading a team to an NBA championship.

And no, he didn't dominate at all levels - never played in the Olympics.


Since you're obviously too stupid to understand it context, I'll go slow for you.

Jordan, couldn't even make his hs team.
Kareem, led his to 3 straight city championships going 79 - 2 in the process.

Nowhere did I state it was just as impressive, simply showing that Kareem has been a winner at every level he played at, in comparison to someone who failed to even make the team.

Domination at every level of the game counts for quite a lot when you talk about

greatest
of
all
time.

[The Iron Fist]

michael air jordan

played the game to perfection, squeezed out every bit of his amazing potential with dedication an hardwork. somebody who i can't remember put it best: one in a million talent combined with one in a million hardwork

has a case to make for both the best ever scorer and best ever defending guard
has both the skillsets and the killer mindset
has the stat and the achievement
his game was both graceful and effective

think about it, this guy's career is legendary, wins 3 straight championships, get bored with the league, goes on to pursue something else, comes back in almost 2 years without playing basketball, and still dominates the league like it's his bish, wins another 3peat.

the only knock to his nba career to me is his return to the wizards, which is not that bad, he performed at a level that nobody have done at that age.

you can't make up a fictional character that's better than him.
:facepalm

[andgar923]

MJ










Bird

Bird did some amazing things, throw in the fact that he wasn't as athletically gifted makes his feats even more amazing.

I see Lebron play and i can only picture how scary he'd be if he understood the game like him. Not to trash on Bron, but he's half the player Bird is.

Something as simple as creating space with his lower body to get a shot is very underrated. His IQ and timing were off the scale. I know I'ma sound like a homer, but I believe MJ was Bird with athleticism. Magic was great but he didn't have the offensive prowess or defensive abilities that these two had.

[imlmf]

:facepalm


what? you got something to say then say it

jordan was almost 39 when he score 50, also score 40 at age of 40, tell me somebody else that done it

yeah, exactly

[Niquesports]

MJ










Bird

Bird did some amazing things, throw in the fact that he wasn't as athletically gifted makes his feats even more amazing.

I see Lebron play and i can only picture how scary he'd be if he understood the game like him. Not to trash on Bron, but he's half the player Bird is.

Something as simple as creating space with his lower body to get a shot is very underrated. His IQ and timing were off the scale. I know I'ma sound like a homer, but I believe MJ was Bird with athleticism. Magic was great but he didn't have the offensive prowess or defensive abilities that these two had.
It always makes me go wow when people talk about Bird's defense and down Magic about defense. These are 2 players of the same size and for the most part same athletically. Yet Bird would never have thought about trying to defend Isiah Thomas or some of the other G magic use to defend. IF anything Bird was almost a liability on defense for those celtics teams. Many times Mchale or Maxwell would have to defend the other teams top perimeter player.Don't recall Bird ever shutting down Dr. J, Dominique, Bernard King ect...Also many people look at Bird's points and some how think he was so much better than Magic on offense. Magic was able to get 18-20 ppg and still give out 10 apg. thats 40ppg for his team. Would you not say that Great "offensive prowess"? Magic 's basketball IQ was so great where Jordan and Bird had to depend on scoring Magic had to make sure everyother player was in the game and got the ball in best postion for them to score. All the while magic still knew when he needed to have the ball and scorer.

[andgar923]

It always makes me go wow when people talk about Bird's defense and down Magic about defense. These are 2 players of the same size and for the most part same athletically. Yet Bird would never have thought about trying to defend Isiah Thomas or some of the other G magic use to defend. IF anything Bird was almost a liability on defense for those celtics teams. Many times Mchale or Maxwell would have to defend the other teams top perimeter player.Don't recall Bird ever shutting down Dr. J, Dominique, Bernard King ect...Also many people look at Bird's points and some how think he was so much better than Magic on offense. Magic was able to get 18-20 ppg and still give out 10 apg. thats 40ppg for his team. Would you not say that Great "offensive prowess"? Magic 's basketball IQ was so great where Jordan and Bird had to depend on scoring Magic had to make sure everyother player was in the game and got the ball in best postion for them to score. All the while magic still knew when he needed to have the ball and scorer.

The greatness of MJ's defensive abilities have made people believe that to be a good defensive player, you have to shut down your opponent in a one on one matchup.

Bird wasn't gonna shut people down.

However..... he forced people by positioning himself and was a better help defender than Magic. Magic was good defensively, but not as good as Bird..... not to say either were great defenders, but the slight edge goes towards Bird imo.

Magic had one of the highest IQs no doubt, I think one can argue that it can be Bird 1A and Magic 1B... but the edge goes to Bird because he was doing what he did with far less athletic ability (even less athletic than Magic).

And by offense of course I'm talking about 'scoring'.

I'm sure somebody will post games in which Magic went off and scored 40 pts or more, but I still don't think he could do score as well as Bird or MJ... not in the same league. While both Bird and MJ could pass as good as Magic if that was their main responsibility.

[jlip]

what? you got something to say then say it

jordan was almost 39 when he score 50, also score 40 at age of 40, tell me somebody else that done it

yeah, exactly
Kareem- 46 pts (21-30 shooting) against Hakeem on 02/06/86. Kareem was a couple months shy of his 39th b-day. He scored 43pts against Hakeem the next time they met.

Karl Malone- 40 pts 9rbs 7 asts
Jazz vs Magic...03/12/03. He was about 3 months of his 40th b-day.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200303120ORL.html

[necya]

Sorry but Jordan isn't the greatest.

The only criteria that puts Jordan #1 is endorsements and popularity.

If you disagree, that is your choice, but please have a well-defined reason as to why Jordan is the best ever. As you will see, for Jordan, there is no standard. His claim to the best ever is based on popularity, media-hype, and endorsements, with a few weak arguments thrown in for good measure.

asshole is back...

how many many games do you have seen of him and which year?
you are a fool, those who have seen this guy on a basketball court knows what i'm talking about. i really don't know how many games i have of him, maybe 600-700 and there is no one who can match his greatness on the court.

you can troll as you can here, you are far away from the truth.

[Niquesports]

The greatness of MJ's defensive abilities have made people believe that to be a good defensive player, you have to shut down your opponent in a one on one matchup.

Bird wasn't gonna shut people down.

However..... he forced people by positioning himself and was a better help defender than Magic. Magic was good defensively, but not as good as Bird..... not to say either were great defenders, but the slight edge goes towards Bird imo.

Magic had one of the highest IQs no doubt, I think one can argue that it can be Bird 1A and Magic 1B... but the edge goes to Bird because he was doing what he did with far less athletic ability (even less athletic than Magic).

And by offense of course I'm talking about 'scoring'.

I'm sure somebody will post games in which Magic went off and scored 40 pts or more, but I still don't think he could do score as well as Bird or MJ... not in the same league. While both Bird and MJ could pass as good as Magic if that was their main responsibility.
Not sure if I would agree that Magic was more athletic than Bird, maybe a better open court player but not more athletic. As far as help defense goes Magic was better at getting steals which means he was better at playing the passing lanes. Even if we were to say Bird was less athletic that would not mean his IQ was higher. Magic was making the offense work, ITs like in football Magic is the quaterback and Bird is the wide receiver. Never heard anyone call a WR as having a higher IQ than the QB.Offense isn't limited to scoring.Yet when needed Magic could turn it up that just wasn't what he knew his team needed to win. ITs not a case that he couldn't scorer at willhe has shown that many more nights than Bird or MJ has shown they can lead their teams to vicotry as a set up man.

[Force]

Most dominating perimeter player I ever saw. MJ

Most dominating post player I eve saw, Shaq and then KAJ.

Greatest leader and teammate I have ever seen, Magic no question.

[sekachu]

Michael Jordan

His game is so unique

[LilBTheBasedGod]

How can anyone consider a player that shoots 6-24 in Game 7 of an NBA Finals a GOAT clutch player?

[Force]

How can anyone consider a player that shoots 6-24 in Game 7 of an NBA Finals a GOAT clutch player?

I don't get it either. Kobe has shot worse than 40% in almost 40% of his 38 NBA finals games. He has had a ton of bad games on the biggest stage.

[alenleomessi]

Jordan
Whoever says otherwise is either hater or doesnt know crap about basketball

[andgar923]

I don't get it either. Kobe has shot worse than 40% in almost 40% of his 38 NBA finals games. He has had a ton of bad games on the biggest stage.

And that's not including deciding important games.

[PHILA]

imo it's between Jordan, Kareem, Wilt and Russell. :applause:

[M.V.P]

I wish I could've watched Wilt and Russell to actually answer this question fully. Wilt's stats sound like he was awesome, it's just unfortunate that there's so little footage, and he's surrounded by a ridiculous amount of exaggerated myths :(

[LilBTheBasedGod]

Man Shaq would be in there if he didn't become such a journeyman.

[MMM]

I have to go with Bill Russell. Has there been a better winner in American sports history????? I'm aware that people want to down play his era and the fact that he didn't have the prettiest offensive numbers hurts his legacy in some eyes. Also he did play on a stacked team but were they always the most talented team during their dynasty????? I would have to say no especially in the late 60's but Russell knew how will his team to victory. What made him unique was how he uplifted the talent around him. So he himself might not of been the most talented or skilled but there hasn't been a player as determined to do all the little things that produce Ws.

[Jr Llaban]

Didn't bother reading the whole thread, but it looks like you get flamed for stating your personal opinion instead of the general consensus.

What if my GOAT was Allen Iverson, for my own reasons?
Or Tim Duncan?

Well, my the GOAT to me is MJ, but Kobe is/will always be my favorite player.

[silenc]

Its really hard to pigeon hole it to one cause of the different styles......

All Around: Michael Jordan
Most Dominant: Shaquille O'Neal
Best Pure Shooter: Larry Bird
Most Clutch: Kobe Bryant
Best Passer: John Stockton
Boards: Dennis Rodman
:facepalm

[PurpleChuck]

MJ.

[Niquesports]

Didn't bother reading the whole thread, but it looks like you get flamed for stating your personal opinion instead of the general consensus.

What if my GOAT was Allen Iverson, for my own reasons?
Or Tim Duncan?

Well, my the GOAT to me is MJ, but Kobe is/will always be my favorite player.
I would say Magic, however many that saw both would say Oscar. I have read and talked with several people that say Oscar was the most complete player they have ever seen. For those that dont understand that era Oscar played for a disfunctional organization with the Royals. The Royals were just a poorly ran team,in addition to having to face the Celtics and Sixers in the playoffs which explains why they never made a finals.Oscar was then and is now a very outspoken person and he stepped on a lot of feet. Many believe he has been black balled from by the league which might explain why he is one of the only greats to never work for a team after his career ended.But the FA that we see today the players can thank Oscar .

[imlmf]

Kareem- 46 pts (21-30 shooting) against Hakeem on 02/06/86. Kareem was a couple months shy of his 39th b-day. He scored 43pts against Hakeem the next time they met.

Karl Malone- 40 pts 9rbs 7 asts
Jazz vs Magic...03/12/03. He was about 3 months of his 40th b-day.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200303120ORL.html

still jordan was the oldest to ever score 40+ and 50+
being a swingman makes it all the more impressive too

[imlmf]

Kareem- 46 pts (21-30 shooting) against Hakeem on 02/06/86. Kareem was a couple months shy of his 39th b-day. He scored 43pts against Hakeem the next time they met.

Karl Malone- 40 pts 9rbs 7 asts
Jazz vs Magic...03/12/03. He was about 3 months of his 40th b-day.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200303120ORL.html

still jordan was the oldest to ever score 40+ and 50+
being a swingman makes it all the more impressive too

and don't forget this version of jordan came out of retirement

[donald_trump]

youre trying to hard if you dont say jordan.

youre not cool or look like you know anything about basketball simply because you say someone other than jordan.

its jordan and there really is no argument. citing high school championships as a reason why someone is better than jordan is f*cking retarded, and so are you if you do it. who the f*ck cares about high school basketball. kareem isnt close to the greatest. and those who bring up magic can quit at life too. the guy wasnt even the best during his own time, let alone the best ever.

laker fans or cali residents will be the only ones to bring up anyone other than jordan as the best. them and retards.

[Psileas]

What a joke. Kareem has a good case for GOAT (can't go wrong with him or Jordan), but if you're resorting to this it's just pathetic. Yes, leading a team to a High School championship is just as impressive as leading a team to an NBA championship.

And no, he didn't dominate at all levels - never played in the Olympics.

If it was so easy and unimpressive to dominate H.S at Kareem's level, then why didn't anyone, including any all-time great, apart from 2-3 players like LeBron or Wilt, compare?
And you are laughing at someone pointing out that Kareem dominated all levels, then you point out that he didn't play in the Olympics, which were dominated by the second-rate unit of the USA amateurs...Haywood, JoJo White, Charlie Scott and a bunch of margin later NBAers and NBA rejects managed to reach undefeated to the title, yet Kareem would have the slightest difficulty to dominate?

And, like someone else said, it's between Wilt, Kareem, Jordan and Russell, depending on what you value more. Some add Magic to the mix. I have him 5th, but he's still the GOAT or a top-3 GOAT in certain categories.

[Niquesports]

If it was so easy and unimpressive to dominate H.S at Kareem's level, then why didn't anyone, including any all-time great, apart from 2-3 players like LeBron or Wilt, compare?
And you are laughing at someone pointing out that Kareem dominated all levels, then you point out that he didn't play in the Olympics, which were dominated by the second-rate unit of the USA amateurs...Haywood, JoJo White, Charlie Scott and a bunch of margin later NBAers and NBA rejects managed to reach undefeated to the title, yet Kareem would have the slightest difficulty to dominate?

And, like someone else said, it's between Wilt, Kareem, Jordan and Russell, depending on what you value more. Some add Magic to the mix. I have him 5th, but he's still the GOAT or a top-3 GOAT in certain categories.

I think many of the younger fans of the NBA confuse athleticism with one player being better than another. Was Jordan Great Without question. But so was Russell Magic and Bird. So was Oscar who many call the most complete player of All Time. Athleticism is just one part of the game. Until Wade develops a complete consistent outside shot like Magic did he will just be another Dominique Wilkins. Until Lebron develops a post game like Kobe did he will just be another George Gervin.A prime Magic vs a Prime Jordan would have been a fight to the end. Anyone that thinks different knows little about basketball. As for the Centers Kareem,Russ,Wilt no they would n't have been on ESPN Top 10. But give me a Top Center and a very good perimeter player over a Top perimeter and a very good Center any day.

[AirJordan&Magic]

It's either Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Russell when it really comes down to it.

Imo, it's a toss up between KAJ and Jordan. The more you learn about Kareem (Like I did), the more you realize he has every bit as good of a case as Jordan does as the G.o.a.t

[Niquesports]

It's either Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain or Bill Russell when it really comes down to it.

Imo, it's a toss up between KAJ and Jordan. The more you learn about Kareem (Like I did), the more you realize he has every bit as good of a case as Jordan does as the G.o.a.t

Im a big Jabbar fan He is my GOAT center. However unlike Russell, Shaq, Hakeem and Moses Jabbar was not the kind of player that could just will his team to win. Which explains why he only won his titles with Oscar and Magic playing quarterback. This isn't a knock on KAJ just pointing out something. KAJ was more like KG he gave you the dominating paint presence but was not a floor leader like say a Duncan. This isn't to say that any of the players mentioned were better than KAJ but he just was a quiet leader not the "come on guys hop on my back and I will take you to the promise land" type player.

[colts19]

First let me say this to the person who had Kobe as all time Clutch. Are you out of your mind. Kobe is a fine player, but he is not and has never been clutch at all. Mj, Bird and about a hundred other players are far more clutch than Kobe.

Kareem, Magic, Bird, MJ, Wilt, Russell, and Oscar. That is the list of people who could be considered the GOAT. You can't be wrong with any of these.

[The Iron Fist]

what? you got something to say then say it

jordan was almost 39 when he score 50, also score 40 at age of 40, tell me somebody else that done it

yeah, exactly

Two high scoring games isn't what you said though. You said nobody ever performed at the level he did at those ages.


Kareem and Malone have. At 37, Kareem was a FMVP.

[AirJordan&Magic]

First let me say this to the person who had Kobe as all time Clutch. Are you out of your mind. Kobe is a fine player, but he is not and has never been clutch at all. Mj, Bird and about a hundred other players are far more clutch than Kobe.

Kareem, Magic, Bird, MJ, Wilt, Russell, and Oscar. That is the list of people who could be considered the GOAT. You can't be wrong with any of these.

With all due respect, (And i probably would get flamed for this one), but aside from him putting up legendary all-around numbers, I honestly do not see any case Oscar has in the discussion of g.o.a.t

[MightyWhitey]

Jordan.

[The Iron Fist]

Im a big Jabbar fan He is my GOAT center. However unlike Russell, Shaq, Hakeem and Moses Jabbar was not the kind of player that could just will his team to win. Which explains why he only won his titles with Oscar and Magic playing quarterback. This isn't a knock on KAJ just pointing out something. KAJ was more like KG he gave you the dominating paint presence but was not a floor leader like say a Duncan. This isn't to say that any of the players mentioned were better than KAJ but he just was a quiet leader not the "come on guys hop on my back and I will take you to the promise land" type player.


Without Kareem, how many titles do Oscar and Magic have?

[G.O.A.T]

It's good to see most people have the top four figured out.

Like a few folks have said, after that it comes down to personal philosophy, preference and taste.

How much do you value winning in an individual context?
How much do you value stats?
How much do you value aesthetics?
How much do you value longevity?

The hardest part is putting your personal feelings aside and taking away the hypothetical. You really can't go wrong with any choice, and who you pick a lot of times says a lot about your outlook on the sport.

[Floppy]

Jordan over Wilt cause it's too hard for me to evaluate Wilt's accomplishments.

[Niquesports]

Without Kareem, how many titles do Oscar and Magic have?
Thats silly without Magic and Oscar how many titles does KAJ have ?

[Niquesports]

It's good to see most people have the top four figured out.

Like a few folks have said, after that it comes down to personal philosophy, preference and taste.

How much do you value winning in an individual context?
How much do you value stats?
How much do you value aesthetics?
How much do you value longevity?

The hardest part is putting your personal feelings aside and taking away the hypothetical. You really can't go wrong with any choice, and who you pick a lot of times says a lot about your outlook on the sport.
Will you sign my copy of your book? This is so true. I have posted this before how great would Bill Russell be considered in this win win society today with ESPN 24 hour sports talk shows ect.. Russ winning 11 titles from 1997 to 2010 there would be no question to who the GOAT is. Jordan is great maybe the most difficult non center to defend. However ,much of his legacy is due to the popularity the sport had gained due to Magic and Bird.

[Niquesports]

With all due respect, (And i probably would get flamed for this one), but aside from him putting up legendary all-around numbers, I honestly do not see any case Oscar has in the discussion of g.o.a.t
You need to read about the history of the game.Oscar had no weakness, many say Magic couldn't defend, Bird was not athletic,Jordan was just a scorer,Oscar was elite at every asset of the game. IF you take the time to read about Oscar maybe you will have a change of heart. IF not I question your objectiveness about the game.

[AirJordan&Magic]

You need to read about the history of the game.Oscar had no weakness, many say Magic couldn't defend, Bird was not athletic,Jordan was just a scorer,Oscar was elite at every asset of the game. IF you take the time to read about Oscar maybe you will have a change of heart. IF not I question your objectiveness about the game.

I don't need to read anything. I am well aware of Oscar's game and how complete his game was, so I don't need you or anyone questioning my "objectivity about the game".

I've took time to learn about Oscar, more time than you can imagine. And no, imo, he has no case for being the g.o.a.t.

And I can tell you my criteria for ranking playsiers, and show you how Oscar doesn't add up, imo. Aside from statistical production.

[PullupJay]

The ultimate winner is bill russel, the most dominant is wilt,most exciting is jordan,magic played 5 positions,larry bird was awesome, kareem,oscar robertson averaged a triple double which is insane, this is a hard ass question.... everyone says jordan for some reason

[colts19]

With all due respect, (And i probably would get flamed for this one), but aside from him putting up legendary all-around numbers, I honestly do not see any case Oscar has in the discussion of g.o.a.t

But can you really dismiss putting up legendary all-around numbers. I don't know if you ever saw oscar play but he was truly great. I have to admit that it may be my state of Indiana bias, but I saw oscar in high school and saw Larry Bird when he played in my home town of terre haute, in. ISU at every home game and they were the best I ever saw at that time. Oscar was every bit as good as Larry IMHO.

[Niquesports]

I don't need to read anything. I am well aware of Oscar's game and how complete his game was, so I don't need you or anyone questioning my "objectivity about the game".

I've took time to learn about Oscar, more time than you can imagine. And no, imo, he has no case for being the g.o.a.t.

And I can tell you my criteria for ranking playsiers, and show you how Oscar doesn't add up, imo. Aside from statistical production.
Well tell me your criteria for ranking players then. By the way I respect your opinion just dont agree with it if your saying Oscar isn't in the discussion.

[AirJordan&Magic]

But can you really dismiss putting up legendary all-around numbers. I don't know if you ever saw oscar play but he was truly great. I have to admit that it may be my state of Indiana bias, but I saw oscar in high school and saw Larry Bird when he played in my home town of terre haute, in. ISU at every home game and they were the best I ever saw at that time. Oscar was every bit as good as Larry IMHO.

Of course you can't dismiss it, I never did.

I didn't see Oscar play, neither did the majority of posters here, despite how old they pretend to be. (Not saying you).

I'm not dismissing his numbers, I'm talking about other things compared to the other guys.
Team success, individual playoff performances, accomplishments, etc

[AirJordan&Magic]

Well tell me your criteria for ranking players then. By the way I respect your opinion just dont agree with it if your saying Oscar isn't in the discussion.

I don't expect many to agree, and I'm not saying it is a fact. It's just my personal opinion... And if you do think he is in the discussion, I respect that.

Btw....

My personal criteria is individual accomplishments (KAJ and Jordan), team success and how valuable the player was to that team (Bill Russell), longevity (Kareem Abdul Jabbar), talent, fundamental and skill level (Jordan, KAJ, Bird, Magic, Kobe, Hakeem, Oscar), peak play (KAj, Wilt, Shaq, Jordan), statistical production(Wilt and Oscar), and playoff performance (Jordan, KAJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Russell, and Magic)..

[colts19]

Of course you can't dismiss it, I never did.

I didn't see Oscar play, neither did the majority of posters here, despite how old they pretend to be. (Not saying you).

I'm not dismissing his numbers, I'm talking about other things compared to the other guys.
Team success, individual playoff performances, accomplishments, etc

Sadly,I am old. I understand what you are saying. If you look at playoff performances and things like that, I can understand your position and I'm not saying your wrong for feeling the way you do. What I saw with my eyes is what I base my post on. It's like when I talk about Bill Walton, a lot of people disagree with me when I say my eyes tell me he was the best team player along with Magic that I ever saw. But it is still what my eyes told me. Call me crazy, it's OK.

[Niquesports]

Of course you can't dismiss it, I never did.

I didn't see Oscar play, neither did the majority of posters here, despite how old they pretend to be. (Not saying you).

I'm not dismissing his numbers, I'm talking about other things compared to the other guys.
Team success, individual playoff performances, accomplishments, etc
Well I only saw Oscar"s later years. But I have talked with people that are very knowledgeable .
Let me help you
Team success Oscar played in a time when a player 's draft rights were based on territory so the Royals had rights to him. Also there wasn't Free Agency like it is today so he was stuck on a dysfunctional team that had to face the Celtics and Sixers to advance in the playoffs let alone win a finals.
Where Stockton and Magic have passed Oscar in assist,by the way assist were given more generously in both Magic and Stock day than Oscar's neither is any way near Oscar in scored points. I can go on .

[AirJordan&Magic]

Sadly,I am old. I understand what you are saying. If you look at playoff performances and things like that, I can understand your position and I'm not saying your wrong for feeling the way you do. What I saw with my eyes is what I base my post on. It's like when I talk about Bill Walton, a lot of people disagree with me when I say my eyes tell me he was the best team player along with Magic that I ever saw. But it is still what my eyes told me. Call me crazy, it's OK.

And I respect that. Usually, I stray away from topics (Or at least not talk too much about them) about Russell, Oscar, or Wilt because I did not in any point witness them play.

And I have no problem with anyone's opinion. Hell, I saw Shaq play during his LSU days and thought to myself "I had never seen a player this good"

[AirJordan&Magic]

Well I only saw Oscar"s later years. But I have talked with people that are very knowledgeable .
Let me help you
Team success Oscar played in a time when a player 's draft rights were based on territory so the Royals had rights to him. Also there wasn't Free Agency like it is today so he was stuck on a dysfunctional team that had to face the Celtics and Sixers to advance in the playoffs let alone win a finals.
Where Stockton and Magic have passed Oscar in assist,by the way assist were given more generously in both Magic and Stock day than Oscar's neither is any way near Oscar in scored points. I can go on .

What about his later years on the Royals? When Jerry Lucas joined aboard.... His team missed the playoffs for three straight seasons.

And I do agree with your point about assists.

[MakeHistory78]

http://thecoolestlosers.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/tumblr_ldeyv9r7ad1qc9vyfo1_500.jpg

[pauk]

the man who averaged a 30 pt triple double over 5 seasons

http://pedrofeliz3b.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/jumpingoscar_a.gif

[Niquesports]

What about his later years on the Royals? When Jerry Lucas joined aboard.... His team missed the playoffs for three straight seasons.

And I do agree with your point about assists.

Even with Lucas the team was still dysfunctional . They hired an old Bob Cousy as coach who later became player coach. Now how does that sound the teams best player has his coach come in to play his position ? As far as his team missing the playoffs you have to understand the era. He was in the same division as the Celtics and Sixers .As for the 3 seasons the 3rd Lucas only played 4 games with the Royals. Oscars great support cast was his Robin Tom Van Arsdale Connie Dierking, Johnny Green and the great Fred Foster. This team of Oscar and his support was in a division that had New York ,The Bucks ,Bullets and the Sixers.IN those days just the top 4 teams of each division advanced to the playoffs. Russ,MJ,Magic,Wilt none of them could have lead the Royals to the playoffs with that support .By the way in 66 Oscar and Lucas played Boston the greatest dynasty of all team sports to a 3-2 first round. Winning 2 games in Boston.

[Niquesports]

:bowdown:
the man who averaged a 30 pt triple double over 5 seasons

http://pedrofeliz3b.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/jumpingoscar_a.gif
:bowdown: Welcome TO ISH

[pauk]

:bowdown:
:bowdown: Welcome TO ISH

:banana:

[jlip]

what? you got something to say then say it

jordan was almost 39 when he score 50, also score 40 at age of 40, tell me somebody else that done it

yeah, exactly



Kareem- 46 pts (21-30 shooting) against Hakeem on 02/06/86. Kareem was a couple months shy of his 39th b-day. He scored 43pts against Hakeem the next time they met.

Karl Malone- 40 pts 9rbs 7 asts
Jazz vs Magic...03/12/03. He was about 3 months of his 40th b-day.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200303120ORL.html


still jordan was the oldest to ever score 40+ and 50+
being a swingman makes it all the more impressive too

This is the problem I have with the "Jordan only" fanbase. In their opinion every single thing that he did was greater and more impressive than everything that anyone else since the beginning of basketball history has ever done. It's as if ice from his freezer is colder than ice from everybody else's freezer.

I respect the man as a legit GOAT candidate. He's on my short list also. I don't mean to minimize him on any level. The way he played at ages 38-40 after having been retired for years was better than many stars who were 28 and in their prime. But for your initial post you were implying basically that noone had come close to doing the things at near age 40 that MJ did in terms of scoring. Obviously Kareem and Karl Malone performed comparable feats at nearly the same age.

While again, simply being able to put up some of the numbers that he did at that age was nothing short of brilliant, one has to look at a little taste of context. If I were some Jordan hater I could also ask, "What player at age 38+ had the license to enter a system and consistently attempt as many shots per game at that age as he attempted when he was in his athletic prime?Younger fans are always so quick to "contextualize" numbers (especially rebounding) in the Wilt/ Russell era because of factors such as pace which increased the number of possessions. The same treatment should be given to MJ's great scoring feats during his Wizards days when comparing him to other greats at that age. Since the 1986-87 season there have been 45 games were a player 38 years old or older has attempted at least 25 shots. Michael Jordan has 33 of those games by himself. Regardless of position if he has the opportunity to shoot like that shouldn't he have more of those higher scoring games?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player=&match=game&year_min=1987&year_max=2011&age_min=38&age_max=41&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=N&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos=&c1stat=fga&c1comp=gt&c1val=25&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts

Jordan's scoring games at 38+...Impressive? Most definitely and this fact cannot be denied. Something that no other all time great could have done? No.

[Jan95]

Michael Jordan

Then Magic, Bird and KAJ.

[madmax]

The best individual player of all time: Wilt and no one else is even close - no one dominated their peers to the extent of this man
The best team player of all time : Bill Russell - the definition of a perfect teammate and a true winner
The best player, combining individual talent and team success - Lew Alcindor

Jordan is very overrated and his numbers and achievements are padded playing in a washed up era

[Ne 1]

The best individual player of all time: Wilt and no one else is even close - no one dominated their peers to the extent of this man
The best team player of all time : Bill Russell - the definition of a perfect teammate and a true winner
The best player, combining individual talent and team success - Lew Alcindor

Jordan is very overrated and his numbers and achievements are padded playing in a washed up era

Agreed.

Wilt is simply more dominating. While Jordan fans are quick to point out Wilt's flaw (free throws), I can equally point out that Jordan was not that great of a 3 point shooter, unless the line is moved in (the league's attempt to help inferior players score more).

Jordan averaged 1 mores assist per game than Wilt during his career, and this is while he has been enjoying the luxury of looser rules governing assists. Had the rulebook been the same back then as it now, governing assists, this number would be even.

Jordan took more shots than Wilt, yet both averaged 30.1 ppg during their careers. As far as who was the better scorer, there is no question: During Wilt's first 7 years, he scored like no man in history. Jordan never had a 70+ point game. Wilt had 4. Jordan never averaged 38+ ppg for a season. Wilt did it 3 times.

Jordan was also much more selfish. When Wilt's coaches asked him to score, he did. When they asked him to sacrificed his scoring titles, he did. Jordan fought any attempt to cut back his shot attempts and led the league in field goal attempts a record 9 times (would be 10 if he played the entire '95 season.) Read about Jordan's spats with Phil Jackson and Doug Collins. Read about how he put down Tex Winter and the triangle! Even his own teammate Horace Grant said that Jordan cared more about his points than the team. If Wilt had that selfish attitude, there is no telling how many more points he would have. Also, if you take Wilt's scoring through the same number of career games, his scoring average is higher.

Wilt is a vastly superior rebounder, and while Jordan fans will point out that "Wilt should have more, since he is a center", I counter that Jordan should have a lot more assists, since he is a guard, but the numbers do not support him. Wilt is one of the greatest passers ever at center, but Jordan isn't as dominating at his position with respect to rebounds (Oscar and Magic, for instance, are both better rebounders). And while Jordan does have more 1st team all defensive selections, keep in mind that #1) the team wasn't created until Wilt's 10th year in the league and #2) Only one center is selected vs. 2 guards. If Jordan were the greatest defensive guard ever, there would be a point, but as long as Walt Frazier is remembered, Jordan could never be better than #2.

Jordan has also received the benefit of rules changes that have been implemented to help offensive players, such as well-defined rules concerning zones, rules against hand checking, and flagrant fouls. He's been spoiled by the luxuries given to the modern player, such as chartered planes, first class hotels, superior athletic shoes, and modern sports medicine (and he still hasn't approached Wilt's minutes per game!). Jordan has benefited from the joke that has become NBA officiating, in which superstars receive preferential treatment, and Jordan has probably received more than any player in history. The steps and the fouls he gets away with are ridiculous!

Consider also that Jordan benefited from the dilution of talent in the 1990s that came from expansion, giving him inferior talent to play against, compared to the 1980s. It is no coincidence that Jordan's teammate, Dennis Rodman, said that the 1996 Bulls could not have won 70 games playing against 1980s teams. While Jordan has many accomplishments, they cannot compare to Wilt's, and while the press and the Jordan radicals try to rationalize Wilt's numbers, as you can see, it's equally easy to rationalize Jordan's, and when it comes down to it, Wilt is still the most dominating player in history, and Jordan has never came close to threatening Wilt's 100 point game or 50.4 PPG average, and scoring is supposed to be Jordan's specialty, let alone Wilt's 8.6 APG in a season, or his rebounding numbers, or his 72.7% field goal percentage.

Finally, consider each player's ability to carry a team. Wilt came into the league and carried a bad team to immediate contention. He took the 1962 Warriors, not a great team, to the 7th game of the conference finals, where they lost by 2 points on a controversial call, to the champion Celtics. Jordan, on the other hand, came into the league and joined a losing team and after 3 years, they were STILL a losing team. He was 1-9 in the playoffs and posted 3 consecutive losing seasons. The truth is, Jordan played 5 seasons without Scottie Pippen and in each of those 5 seasons, he could not win more games than he lost, and in the final 2 years, he failed to get Washington to the playoffs. Yes, he was older than Wilt when Wilt retired, but Wilt played MANY more minutes, because Jordan retired 3 times. The fact is, without great teammates, Jordan was a loser. Wilt, on the other hand, could carry a poor team much farther than Jordan, showing just how much more dominant he was.

[The Iron Fist]

Thats silly without Magic and Oscar how many titles does KAJ have ?

Exactly it is silly.

Which is why its also silly to state that he won because of them.

The guy is a proven winner at every level, and not just a one and done deal either. He was a 3x winner at both the hs and college level. He didn't have Oscar or Magic for any of those wins and I don't recall Oscar or Magic winning in that manner at those levels either.

I know why people love to ignore that though,

because it doesn't fit into their ideal of what greatness at an all time level is.

While the hs and college level doesn't quite equate to that of the NBA, you just can't overlook the fact that Kareem did indeed win there like mostly nobody else has.

How many other 3 time hs and 3 time college winners in the history of the sport has there been?

Its an exceptional feat and further supports what all time greatness means. Kareem won at those levels and in the NBA,


because he was that damn good.

[MakeHistory78]

Agreed.

Wilt is simply more dominating. While Jordan fans are quick to point out Wilt's flaw (free throws), I can equally point out that Jordan was not that great of a 3 point shooter, unless the line is moved in (the league's attempt to help inferior players score more).

Jordan averaged 1 mores assist per game than Wilt during his career, and this is while he has been enjoying the luxury of looser rules governing assists. Had the rulebook been the same back then as it now, governing assists, this number would be even.

Jordan took more shots than Wilt, yet both averaged 30.1 ppg during their careers. As far as who was the better scorer, there is no question: During Wilt's first 7 years, he scored like no man in history. Jordan never had a 70+ point game. Wilt had 4. Jordan never averaged 38+ ppg for a season. Wilt did it 3 times.

Jordan was also much more selfish. When Wilt's coaches asked him to score, he did. When they asked him to sacrificed his scoring titles, he did. Jordan fought any attempt to cut back his shot attempts and led the league in field goal attempts a record 9 times (would be 10 if he played the entire '95 season.) Read about Jordan's spats with Phil Jackson and Doug Collins. Read about how he put down Tex Winter and the triangle! Even his own teammate Horace Grant said that Jordan cared more about his points than the team. If Wilt had that selfish attitude, there is no telling how many more points he would have. Also, if you take Wilt's scoring through the same number of career games, his scoring average is higher.

Wilt is a vastly superior rebounder, and while Jordan fans will point out that "Wilt should have more, since he is a center", I counter that Jordan should have a lot more assists, since he is a guard, but the numbers do not support him. Wilt is one of the greatest passers ever at center, but Jordan isn't as dominating at his position with respect to rebounds (Oscar and Magic, for instance, are both better rebounders). And while Jordan does have more 1st team all defensive selections, keep in mind that #1) the team wasn't created until Wilt's 10th year in the league and #2) Only one center is selected vs. 2 guards. If Jordan were the greatest defensive guard ever, there would be a point, but as long as Walt Frazier is remembered, Jordan could never be better than #2.

Jordan has also received the benefit of rules changes that have been implemented to help offensive players, such as well-defined rules concerning zones, rules against hand checking, and flagrant fouls. He's been spoiled by the luxuries given to the modern player, such as chartered planes, first class hotels, superior athletic shoes, and modern sports medicine (and he still hasn't approached Wilt's minutes per game!). Jordan has benefited from the joke that has become NBA officiating, in which superstars receive preferential treatment, and Jordan has probably received more than any player in history. The steps and the fouls he gets away with are ridiculous!

Consider also that Jordan benefited from the dilution of talent in the 1990s that came from expansion, giving him inferior talent to play against, compared to the 1980s. It is no coincidence that Jordan's teammate, Dennis Rodman, said that the 1996 Bulls could not have won 70 games playing against 1980s teams. While Jordan has many accomplishments, they cannot compare to Wilt's, and while the press and the Jordan radicals try to rationalize Wilt's numbers, as you can see, it's equally easy to rationalize Jordan's, and when it comes down to it, Wilt is still the most dominating player in history, and Jordan has never came close to threatening Wilt's 100 point game or 50.4 PPG average, and scoring is supposed to be Jordan's specialty, let alone Wilt's 8.6 APG in a season, or his rebounding numbers, or his 72.7% field goal percentage.

Finally, consider each player's ability to carry a team. Wilt came into the league and carried a bad team to immediate contention. He took the 1962 Warriors, not a great team, to the 7th game of the conference finals, where they lost by 2 points on a controversial call, to the champion Celtics. Jordan, on the other hand, came into the league and joined a losing team and after 3 years, they were STILL a losing team. He was 1-9 in the playoffs and posted 3 consecutive losing seasons. The truth is, Jordan played 5 seasons without Scottie Pippen and in each of those 5 seasons, he could not win more games than he lost, and in the final 2 years, he failed to get Washington to the playoffs. Yes, he was older than Wilt when Wilt retired, but Wilt played MANY more minutes, because Jordan retired 3 times. The fact is, without great teammates, Jordan was a loser. Wilt, on the other hand, could carry a poor team much farther than Jordan, showing just how much more dominant he was.
http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcd7inOJ3B1qdhmlzo1_250.gif

http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/128.jpg
This ***** is a Kobe homer..Get the **** out of here mother****er.You are ******.When Mike played you were unborn.**** you!

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Agreed.

Wilt is simply more dominating. While Jordan fans are quick to point out Wilt's flaw (free throws), I can equally point out that Jordan was not that great of a 3 point shooter, unless the line is moved in (the league's attempt to help inferior players score more).

Jordan averaged 1 mores assist per game than Wilt during his career, and this is while he has been enjoying the luxury of looser rules governing assists. Had the rulebook been the same back then as it now, governing assists, this number would be even.

Jordan took more shots than Wilt, yet both averaged 30.1 ppg during their careers. As far as who was the better scorer, there is no question: During Wilt's first 7 years, he scored like no man in history. Jordan never had a 70+ point game. Wilt had 4. Jordan never averaged 38+ ppg for a season. Wilt did it 3 times.

Jordan was also much more selfish. When Wilt's coaches asked him to score, he did. When they asked him to sacrificed his scoring titles, he did. Jordan fought any attempt to cut back his shot attempts and led the league in field goal attempts a record 9 times (would be 10 if he played the entire '95 season.) Read about Jordan's spats with Phil Jackson and Doug Collins. Read about how he put down Tex Winter and the triangle! Even his own teammate Horace Grant said that Jordan cared more about his points than the team. If Wilt had that selfish attitude, there is no telling how many more points he would have. Also, if you take Wilt's scoring through the same number of career games, his scoring average is higher.

Wilt is a vastly superior rebounder, and while Jordan fans will point out that "Wilt should have more, since he is a center", I counter that Jordan should have a lot more assists, since he is a guard, but the numbers do not support him. Wilt is one of the greatest passers ever at center, but Jordan isn't as dominating at his position with respect to rebounds (Oscar and Magic, for instance, are both better rebounders). And while Jordan does have more 1st team all defensive selections, keep in mind that #1) the team wasn't created until Wilt's 10th year in the league and #2) Only one center is selected vs. 2 guards. If Jordan were the greatest defensive guard ever, there would be a point, but as long as Walt Frazier is remembered, Jordan could never be better than #2.

Jordan has also received the benefit of rules changes that have been implemented to help offensive players, such as well-defined rules concerning zones, rules against hand checking, and flagrant fouls. He's been spoiled by the luxuries given to the modern player, such as chartered planes, first class hotels, superior athletic shoes, and modern sports medicine (and he still hasn't approached Wilt's minutes per game!). Jordan has benefited from the joke that has become NBA officiating, in which superstars receive preferential treatment, and Jordan has probably received more than any player in history. The steps and the fouls he gets away with are ridiculous!

Consider also that Jordan benefited from the dilution of talent in the 1990s that came from expansion, giving him inferior talent to play against, compared to the 1980s. It is no coincidence that Jordan's teammate, Dennis Rodman, said that the 1996 Bulls could not have won 70 games playing against 1980s teams. While Jordan has many accomplishments, they cannot compare to Wilt's, and while the press and the Jordan radicals try to rationalize Wilt's numbers, as you can see, it's equally easy to rationalize Jordan's, and when it comes down to it, Wilt is still the most dominating player in history, and Jordan has never came close to threatening Wilt's 100 point game or 50.4 PPG average, and scoring is supposed to be Jordan's specialty, let alone Wilt's 8.6 APG in a season, or his rebounding numbers, or his 72.7% field goal percentage.

Finally, consider each player's ability to carry a team. Wilt came into the league and carried a bad team to immediate contention. He took the 1962 Warriors, not a great team, to the 7th game of the conference finals, where they lost by 2 points on a controversial call, to the champion Celtics. Jordan, on the other hand, came into the league and joined a losing team and after 3 years, they were STILL a losing team. He was 1-9 in the playoffs and posted 3 consecutive losing seasons. The truth is, Jordan played 5 seasons without Scottie Pippen and in each of those 5 seasons, he could not win more games than he lost, and in the final 2 years, he failed to get Washington to the playoffs. Yes, he was older than Wilt when Wilt retired, but Wilt played MANY more minutes, because Jordan retired 3 times. The fact is, without great teammates, Jordan was a loser. Wilt, on the other hand, could carry a poor team much farther than Jordan, showing just how much more dominant he was.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[N0Skillz]

I can't believe so many of you guys followed the rules I set. Thank you.


And for those of you who have been talking shit and all that shit stop please.

There is also no need to neg people for not sharing your beliefs....


Someone also asked me for my rank 2 so dont hate



1. KAJ/Shaq
2. Magic/Bird/Jordan/Robertson


I don't know enough about Russel and Wilt to actually rank them anywhere.

As for Kobe. I am not putting him anywhere on my list until he is 35 years old because he's still doing alot in the league and still can add alot to his career.

[Tide]

Am I the only one who really wants to make a Kanye joke right now?

[Nevaeh]

The ultimate winner is bill russel, the most dominant is wilt,most exciting is jordan,magic played 5 positions,larry bird was awesome, kareem,oscar robertson averaged a triple double which is insane, this is a hard ass question.... everyone says jordan for some reason

Well the thread is titled Who's The Greatest of All Time for You, which a pretty slick way to by-pass stats, data and all that jazz and throw out ANY player based on preference. with that, here's mine.

Allen Iverson- Introduced new Braid styles to the league. yeah, Rodman did the tatoo thing earlier, but NOBODY could rock the intricate hairstyles like AI. Plus he was the NBA2k cover athlete longer than anybody. And he scored a lot.


Scottie Pippen- While Russell was the Original Glue Guy, it was Scottie who took it to another level, keeping everyone on the same page, and a sometimes Moody MJ in a good mood. His style of play was exciting, plus he could dunk and shoot the 3 silky-smooth like.


Tim Duncan- Brought back class and humility to the game, after years of low scoring games and brutish tactics. Never had a reason to slam management or other players, would let his low post moves and Bank Shots do the talking.


Magic Johnson- was the Ultimate Conductor on the court. would find guys with the pass even before they knew they were open. Had a smile for everybody and made winning chic for the LA crowd.


Jerry West- didn't watch a lot of him, but anybody who's the NBA logo HAD to be good. Thanks Jerry, hope the league never changes it.


Michael Jordan- The only player to stick his tongue out for any and every reason on the court. If he's driving right, tongue. If he's going left or baseline, tongue. Moved like a dancer on the court although his dance moves were lacking a bit off the court.

What do these players have in common for me? I have used them all in various combos in NBA Street Volume 2, the Greatest Arcade B-Ball game of All Time. that's why their my GOAT's.

[rmt]

MJ

[jlauber]

Agreed.

Wilt is simply more dominating. While Jordan fans are quick to point out Wilt's flaw (free throws), I can equally point out that Jordan was not that great of a 3 point shooter, unless the line is moved in (the league's attempt to help inferior players score more).

Jordan averaged 1 mores assist per game than Wilt during his career, and this is while he has been enjoying the luxury of looser rules governing assists. Had the rulebook been the same back then as it now, governing assists, this number would be even.

Jordan took more shots than Wilt, yet both averaged 30.1 ppg during their careers. As far as who was the better scorer, there is no question: During Wilt's first 7 years, he scored like no man in history. Jordan never had a 70+ point game. Wilt had 4. Jordan never averaged 38+ ppg for a season. Wilt did it 3 times.

Jordan was also much more selfish. When Wilt's coaches asked him to score, he did. When they asked him to sacrificed his scoring titles, he did. Jordan fought any attempt to cut back his shot attempts and led the league in field goal attempts a record 9 times (would be 10 if he played the entire '95 season.) Read about Jordan's spats with Phil Jackson and Doug Collins. Read about how he put down Tex Winter and the triangle! Even his own teammate Horace Grant said that Jordan cared more about his points than the team. If Wilt had that selfish attitude, there is no telling how many more points he would have. Also, if you take Wilt's scoring through the same number of career games, his scoring average is higher.

Wilt is a vastly superior rebounder, and while Jordan fans will point out that "Wilt should have more, since he is a center", I counter that Jordan should have a lot more assists, since he is a guard, but the numbers do not support him. Wilt is one of the greatest passers ever at center, but Jordan isn't as dominating at his position with respect to rebounds (Oscar and Magic, for instance, are both better rebounders). And while Jordan does have more 1st team all defensive selections, keep in mind that #1) the team wasn't created until Wilt's 10th year in the league and #2) Only one center is selected vs. 2 guards. If Jordan were the greatest defensive guard ever, there would be a point, but as long as Walt Frazier is remembered, Jordan could never be better than #2.

Jordan has also received the benefit of rules changes that have been implemented to help offensive players, such as well-defined rules concerning zones, rules against hand checking, and flagrant fouls. He's been spoiled by the luxuries given to the modern player, such as chartered planes, first class hotels, superior athletic shoes, and modern sports medicine (and he still hasn't approached Wilt's minutes per game!). Jordan has benefited from the joke that has become NBA officiating, in which superstars receive preferential treatment, and Jordan has probably received more than any player in history. The steps and the fouls he gets away with are ridiculous!

Consider also that Jordan benefited from the dilution of talent in the 1990s that came from expansion, giving him inferior talent to play against, compared to the 1980s. It is no coincidence that Jordan's teammate, Dennis Rodman, said that the 1996 Bulls could not have won 70 games playing against 1980s teams. While Jordan has many accomplishments, they cannot compare to Wilt's, and while the press and the Jordan radicals try to rationalize Wilt's numbers, as you can see, it's equally easy to rationalize Jordan's, and when it comes down to it, Wilt is still the most dominating player in history, and Jordan has never came close to threatening Wilt's 100 point game or 50.4 PPG average, and scoring is supposed to be Jordan's specialty, let alone Wilt's 8.6 APG in a season, or his rebounding numbers, or his 72.7% field goal percentage.

Finally, consider each player's ability to carry a team. Wilt came into the league and carried a bad team to immediate contention. He took the 1962 Warriors, not a great team, to the 7th game of the conference finals, where they lost by 2 points on a controversial call, to the champion Celtics. Jordan, on the other hand, came into the league and joined a losing team and after 3 years, they were STILL a losing team. He was 1-9 in the playoffs and posted 3 consecutive losing seasons. The truth is, Jordan played 5 seasons without Scottie Pippen and in each of those 5 seasons, he could not win more games than he lost, and in the final 2 years, he failed to get Washington to the playoffs. Yes, he was older than Wilt when Wilt retired, but Wilt played MANY more minutes, because Jordan retired 3 times. The fact is, without great teammates, Jordan was a loser. Wilt, on the other hand, could carry a poor team much farther than Jordan, showing just how much more dominant he was.

Great perspective. I understand why MJ is considered the GOAT by many. What I don't understand, however, is how so many observers (most of whom never saw Wilt play), rank Chamberlain so low in these "rankings."

Chamberlain OWNS the NBA RECORD BOOK. He was probably never outplayed in his 29 post-season series by an opposing center (jeez, you would be hard-pressed to find individual games, much less an entire series.) AND, the NBA instituted RULES to curtail Wilt's dominance (and virtually none of them had much impact against him.)

BTW, Wilt had SIX 70+ point games (not just four)...which is two more than all of the rest of the players in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED. He also had 32 60+ point games (Jordan and Kobe are next with five each)...which is also two more than all of the other 60+ point games in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED.

Regarding his scoring...he not only has the only three 38 ppg seasons in NBA history (unless you count Baylor's part-time season one year), he averaged nearly 40 ppg (39.4 ppg to be exact)...over the course of his first seven seasons...COMBINED.

[Ne 1]

Great perspective. I understand why MJ is considered the GOAT by many. What I don't understand, however, is how so many observers (most of whom never saw Wilt play), rank Chamberlain so low in these "rankings."

Chamberlain OWNS the NBA RECORD BOOK. He was probably never outplayed in his 29 post-season series by an opposing center (jeez, you would be hard-pressed to find individual games, much less an entire series.) AND, the NBA instituted RULES to curtail Wilt's dominance (and virtually none of them had much impact against him.)

BTW, Wilt had SIX 70+ point games (not just four)...which is two more than all of the rest of the players in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED. He also had 32 60+ point games (Jordan and Kobe are next with five each)...which is also two more than all of the other 60+ point games in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED.

Regarding his scoring...he not only has the only three 38 ppg seasons in NBA history (unless you count Baylor's part-time season one year), he averaged nearly 40 ppg (39.4 ppg to be exact)...over the course of his first seven seasons...COMBINED.

:cheers:

[wakencdukest]

Magic Johnson. The ultimate team player, best passer the game has ever seen, could play any position, could have been a dominant scorer if he wasn't so unselfish, could impact a game without scoring a point.

[jlauber]

Magic Johnson. The ultimate team player, best passer the game has ever seen, could play any position, could have been a dominant scorer if he wasn't so unselfish, could impact a game without scoring a point.

Excellent post.

[jlip]

Magic Johnson. The ultimate team player, best passer the game has ever seen, could play any position, could have been a dominant scorer if he wasn't so unselfish, could impact a game without scoring a point.

Bolded part= My favorite type of players.

[ThaRegul8r]

Regarding this subject, there was something one sports historian wrote that is applicable considering many of the posts usually made when this comes up. I've read his work, and while I don't agree with everything he's said, he has a point in this particular instance:


Baseball’s “myths” and “fabrications” are the very essence of the diamond sport and thus the glue of its wondrous and sustaining history. Ball fans cling to such cherished fabrications as the Abner Doubleday “invention” myth; the heroics of Babe Ruth’s “called” home run shot during the 1932 World Series; the inspired tale of Jackie Robinson’s painful pioneering role as the first black American allowed to play big-league baseball; and dozens more such staples of baseball’s irrepressible folklore.

Little matter that such quaint historical vignettes are indeed all “myths” in the most pejorative sense of the term, and that all are thus more or less false accounts of the game’s verifiable on-field record. Doubleday never fondled a stitched baseball nor set foot upon a diamond-shaped ball field; Ruth was clearly pointing at bench jockeys in the Chicago Cubs’ dugout (reminding that he still had one swing remaining) and not at the center-field bleachers (warning of where the next delivery might land); Robinson was the first African-American to cross the 20th-century baseball color line, but he was neither the first nonwhite during the current century (several dark-skinned Cubans got there first) nor the first African-American “black” from the full history of organized baseball. Such cheerful distortions of the historical record are, after all, the ingrained fabric of the game itself. They are the necessary fanciful tales of a sport built upon the muscular shoulders of folklore—tales passed down from generation to generation as a living legacy of a game that is far more the stuff of truth-bending legends, dusty records, and shadowy ephemeral memories than it is of spellbinding game action itself.

Basketball—with its less visible historical overtones—seemingly has only one such sustaining myth to its credit. And this, as it turns out, is a fabrication of rather recent origins. It is the well-endowed “Jordan Supremacy Myth,” which boldly claims that Chicago Bulls superstar Michael Jordan was the greatest basketball player ever to lace up a pair of high-top sneakers or shoot at modern versions of Dr. Naismith’s primitive peach baskets.

This modern-day Jordan Myth goes so far as to suggest that no one else even approximates Chicago’s heralded superstar when it comes to tabbing the most talented cage paragon ever to dribble, feint, or slam-dunk. It is well-worn liturgy in the Chicagoland sporting press and standard staple among fans and writers just about everywhere else to boot. Of course, for crusty old-timers who have paid attention to the game’s evolution across several decades or more, the Jordan Supremacy Myth (at least the part that says that no possible rivals exist to the Airness Throne) is just as much fabrication as the Babe Ruth “called shot” or Abner Doubledays’s pioneering efforts in Cooperstown.

Despite Jordan’s on-court greatness over a decade and a half, the claims for unrivaled superiority across the entire game’s history seemingly carry a strong aroma of unsubstantial myth-making. This appears to be the case for at least each and every one of the following reasons. Support for such a claim, first off, has been nurtured from the start by the constant drone of public relations geniuses, product pitchmen, and media “talking heads” (of which there are many), and not by the measured and cautious analyses of legitimate basketball historians (of whom there are shamefully few). Evidence—where hard evidence is ever cited—comes heavily in the form of standards for excellence that are skewed entirely toward the current fan preferences of style (showy individual offensive maneuvers and powerful slam dunking) and ignores highly valued skills that formed the standard for early eras (viz., constrained control of individual offensive talents, complete and balanced offensive and defensive skills, rock-solid fundamentals, and team-oriented play). Little or no consideration is given to numerous mitigating factors that contribute mightily to Jordan’s dominance over today’s game (for starters: a weakened league with few solid teams and little team-oriented play; the abandonment of “traveling” as an offensive violation; a dearth of rival contemporary stars to share Jordan’s throne the way Bird and Erving shared Magic Johnson’s, and Chamberlain, Russell, West, and Baylor shared Oscar Robertson’s). And finally, the “myth” of Air Jordan’s unrivaled superiority over all past-era stars may also share the more negative sense of the term as well—that is, it simply isn’t altogether true.

The claim for Jordan’s unquestioned rank above all previous legends of the game (namely Chamberlain, Robertson, Russell, Baylor, Bird, and Magic Johnson) is also likely one doomed to erode as time lapses and as historical perspective gradually returns to the basketball scene. The problem is, of course, that most basketball fans—and most professional basketball commentators as well—have flocked to the winter sport only during a past decade crowded with the feats of Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Air Jordan. Earlier stars of hoopdom, for all their one-time appeal to the smaller coterie of pre-1980s basketball fans, have almost no hold on the modern fan’s imagination. Certainly not in a manner that would parallel the legendary giants of baseball or even the past-era stars of the gridiron sport of football. Every diamond fan, to cite the obvious example, is weaned on stories of Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, and Walter Johnson, or at least on tales of Mantle, DiMaggio, Aaron, and Willie Mays. Basketball fanatics are indeed few who can conjure up even a handful of names of the largest pro or college stars from the ’50s, ’60s, or ’70s.

One downside of current runaway NBA popularity is clearly this near-total loss of historical perspective. Chicago’s Jordan-era Bulls with their string of championship victories and record-breaking win-loss ledgers provide one stark example. (Chicago’s six championships over eight seasons, in what is arguably a watered-down league, is blithely assumed to outstrip Boston’s truer dynastic run of eight straight NBA crowns.) Jordan himself provides another. Memory is indeed quite short in a sport where heavily marketed contemporary court celebrities like Shaq O’Neal, Karl Malone, and Scottie Pippen are enshrined over some of the game’s most important pioneers (Bob Davies and George Yardley, for example) on the NBA’s own official Golden Anniversary list of “Fifty Greatest” players of all time.

In Jordan’s case the issue is not at all whether MJ is one of the true greats ever to play the game. That fact has been well established by the highest career scoring average to date, as well as by runaway fan popularity that knows no parallel in league annals (and perhaps even in the annals of American sports history at large). Jordan may indeed even be the best ever to play the game. Certainly he is without challenge as the lone candidate for enshrinement as basketball’s most celebrated all-time megastar. But this does not necessarily mean—as advocates of today’s version of the sport endlessly crow—that Jordan does not have legitimate rivals for the title of all-time best. Most popular or most celebrated does not always neatly equate with most deeply talented—in any sporting arena or any walk of life. When it comes to assessing Jordan’s legitimate rivals, the field is a bit more crowded than might appear to be the case at first blush.

*waits for the knee-jerk reactions from people who won't bother to completely read what he said*

[jlip]

Regul8r makes an excellent post as usual. What I have observed in casual conversations with other fans (especially those under the age of 40) is that they attempt to make dogmatic claims about whom they consider to be the greatest of ALL times, but the only time they have any knowledge of is the past 20 years. I have to admit that at age 33 for years I had little to no knowledge of the 60's and 70's and foolishly regurgitated myths about those eras that showed nothing but pure, unadulturated ignorance.

[Nevaeh]

Great perspective. I understand why MJ is considered the GOAT by many. What I don't understand, however, is how so many observers (most of whom never saw Wilt play), rank Chamberlain so low in these "rankings."

Chamberlain OWNS the NBA RECORD BOOK. He was probably never outplayed in his 29 post-season series by an opposing center (jeez, you would be hard-pressed to find individual games, much less an entire series.) AND, the NBA instituted RULES to curtail Wilt's dominance (and virtually none of them had much impact against him.)

BTW, Wilt had SIX 70+ point games (not just four)...which is two more than all of the rest of the players in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED. He also had 32 60+ point games (Jordan and Kobe are next with five each)...which is also two more than all of the other 60+ point games in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED.

Regarding his scoring...he not only has the only three 38 ppg seasons in NBA history (unless you count Baylor's part-time season one year), he averaged nearly 40 ppg (39.4 ppg to be exact)...over the course of his first seven seasons...COMBINED.


jlauber,

As much as I respect Wilt for all he's accomplished statistically, he honestly should have had a few more rings under his belt with that level of Dominance. There's just no excuse for him to be THAT damn good, but couldn't do better in the ring department. This just proves that stats alone don't make someone the GOAT to everybody.

People pick MJ because he was the complete package. His big games always had a nail biter element to them, but you never saw him flinch up during any big games that mattered. Anybody who's 6-0 in the Finals (the most important part of the season) HAD to be doing something right. And it wasn't just about points either.

[The Iron Fist]

[/B]

jlauber,

As much as I respect Wilt for all he's accomplished statistically, he honestly should have had a few more rings under his belt with that level of Dominance. There's just no excuse for him to be THAT damn good, but couldn't do better in the ring department. This just proves that stats alone don't make someone the GOAT to everybody.

People pick MJ because he was the complete package. His big games always had a nail biter element to them, but you never saw him flinch up during any big games that mattered. Anybody who's 6-0 in the Finals (the most important part of the season) HAD to be doing something right. And it wasn't just about points either.

Exactly why Regul8ter posted that article.

I guess the only big games Jordan played in, were the ones in which his teams won the finals.

[JohnWall2]

MJ 4 now.. soon JOHN WALL

[wpdougie2180]

[QUOTE=ThaRegul8r]Regarding this subject, there was something one sports historian wrote that is applicable considering many of the posts usually made when this comes up. I've read his work, and while I don't agree with everything he's said, he has a point in this particular instance:

[QUOTE]Baseball

[Nevaeh]

Exactly every true basketball fan should at least read that once and try to digest what he is saying.

wpdougie, it was a good read and everything, but the title of the thread STILL remains "Who is the Greatest of All Time For You?

If people list Jordan and give legit reasons why, that only pertain to the game itself and not shoe commercials, then what's the friggin problem? "No No NO, see MJ CAN'T be your favorite because.....um, lets see........let me bring out my tons of stat sheets here......... yes, see Player X once dunked from the 3-point line blind folded, while scoring 50 points off of offensive rebounds alone.

Look, if people have a Favorite, that's cool. If the reason is legit, cool. But people can't be getting mad because certain players aren't chosen as THE BEST in a thread like this. I'm not a Kobe fan, but I won't slam people who have him as number one in a thread that's a personal preference kind of thing.

However, if they bring arguments like "Kobe could've 3-peated in 91-93 with the Bulls", then people should expect someone to step in and debate that claim. This thread for me is basically learning the reason why people pick a certain player, and I can respect that fully.

[32jazz]

Wilt Chamberlain


personal favorite- Magic Johnson

[Pointguard]

The only way to get around Jordan as GOAT, and to me they are/can be legit arguments is greatness in terms of records and changing the game (Wilt) , or wins (Russell) or accomplishments and team affect in a great era (Magic).

I will offer somethings I see that are overlooked.

Different priorities will always affect the way people give credence to greatness. One thing I notice is that the mental aspect of the game gets no play. The guys so good they can play chess, dictate pace, change the flow, affect the confidence of others, be a coach on the floor and be great leaders. Since this isn't valued I understand why Magic and Bird get no play.

Winning is a good point and most great players are going to win it all. But is it a always a direct correlation to greatness? Shaq was an incredible dominant player - to me the most dominant in the modern game, but a lot of things had to be in place for him to win. One can easily argue that without a great coach that won it all before that Shaq doesn't win. Championships are more coach loaded than player loaded. I will start a thread on this point.

Russell bypasses this because he won as a player coach. But its very applicable to the other players in GOAT convo - KAJ, Shaq, Jordan, Wilt.... But if winning is more coach related than Magic and Bird should have more value. If you are playing Magic's pace and Magic's thinking and execution at high speeds is superior to your teams thinking and execution, Magic is dominating in a way not seen by the casual fan.

The second the other team begins to engage in his tempo, Magic is controlling the game. His teammates will flow with confidence because he will get them into the game and the opposition will muddle in confusion. If Magic has somebody like Amare Stoudamire running with him - Amare would be dominant and more than likely ranked very high as PF all-time. Magic's greatness is largely related to how he could incorporate, different styles and players in an age when there were a variety of teams with different strengths.

I think Wilt defined the center position and took on every responsibility of that position better than anybody else after he gave it definition. He multitasked at a level the others could only dream about. He was hardy ever outplayed and did the block, rebound, pass, efficiency thing better than all centers. Young Wilt does what he do to Kareem just like he did it to everybody else. Too much energy, too fundamental, too talented, too athletic, too strong, too resourceful, too skilled, too fast to be stopped. And yeah, he affects Kareem's game on the other end like he did after knee operation and his post prime game settled in.

My top five are Jordan, Wilt, Magic then Russell/KAJ. Each for a different reason - except MJ and KAJ who have the same strengths.

[Niquesports]

The only way to get around Jordan as GOAT, and to me they are/can be legit arguments is greatness in terms of records and changing the game (Wilt) , or wins (Russell) or accomplishments and team affect in a great era (Magic).

I will offer somethings I see that are overlooked.

Different priorities will always affect the way people give credence to greatness. One thing I notice is that the mental aspect of the game gets no play. The guys so good they can play chess, dictate pace, change the flow, affect the confidence of others, be a coach on the floor and be great leaders. Since this isn't valued I understand why Magic and Bird get no play.

Winning is a good point and most great players are going to win it all. But is it a always a direct correlation to greatness? Shaq was an incredible dominant player - to me the most dominant in the modern game, but a lot of things had to be in place for him to win. One can easily argue that without a great coach that won it all before that Shaq doesn't win. Championships are more coach loaded than player loaded. I will start a thread on this point.

Russell bypasses this because he won as a player coach. But its very applicable to the other players in GOAT convo - KAJ, Shaq, Jordan, Wilt.... But if winning is more coach related than Magic and Bird should have more value. If you are playing Magic's pace and Magic's thinking and execution at high speeds is superior to your teams thinking and execution, Magic is dominating in a way not seen by the casual fan.

The second the other team begins to engage in his tempo, Magic is controlling the game. His teammates will flow with confidence because he will get them into the game and the opposition will muddle in confusion. If Magic has somebody like Amare Stoudamire running with him - Amare would be dominant and more than likely ranked very high as PF all-time. Magic's greatness is largely related to how he could incorporate, different styles and players in an age when there were a variety of teams with different strengths.

I think Wilt defined the center position and took on every responsibility of that position better than anybody else after he gave it definition. He multitasked at a level the others could only dream about. He was hardy ever outplayed and did the block, rebound, pass, efficiency thing better than all centers. Young Wilt does what he do to Kareem just like he did it to everybody else. Too much energy, too fundamental, too talented, too athletic, too strong, too resourceful, too skilled, too fast to be stopped. And yeah, he affects Kareem's game on the other end like he did after knee operation and his post prime game settled in.

My top five are Jordan, Wilt, Magic then Russell/KAJ. Each for a different reason - except MJ and KAJ who have the same strengths.

Great Post I disagree with the coach part I think there have only been 4 coaches Red,Phil,Pop and that were major reasons for there teams winning. Most of the other coaches if another coach had the same talent they would have won also. I want to make Riley the 4th lead 3 different teams to a finals and 2 of them won.I don't like the Number Top 5 or Top 10. I don't see how a player gets kicked out. I mean really has Shaq done anything so great to move Russ out the top 5 or Has Kobe done anything to pass over Magic ? I like just saying Goat, Elite,Super Star, Great Player. I would say Shaq,Oscar,Kobe, are GOAT level players.

[Pointguard]

Great Post I disagree with the coach part I think there have only been 4 coaches Red,Phil,Pop and that were major reasons for there teams winning. Most of the other coaches if another coach had the same talent they would have won also. I want to make Riley the 4th lead 3 different teams to a finals and 2 of them won.I don't like the Number Top 5 or Top 10. I don't see how a player gets kicked out. I mean really has Shaq done anything so great to move Russ out the top 5 or Has Kobe done anything to pass over Magic ? I like just saying Goat, Elite,Super Star, Great Player. I would say Shaq,Oscar,Kobe, are GOAT level players.

Thanks Nique for the critique! I created a separate post on the coach thing so I'll joint you there on that. I don't have Shaq in my top five. I agree with you about Shaq, Kobe and the Big O.

[Sakkreth]

Magic Johnson.

[Big#50]

KAJ
Duncan
Shaq

[Duncan21formvp]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell

[Duncan21formvp]

Great perspective. I understand why MJ is considered the GOAT by many. What I don't understand, however, is how so many observers (most of whom never saw Wilt play), rank Chamberlain so low in these "rankings."

Chamberlain OWNS the NBA RECORD BOOK. He was probably never outplayed in his 29 post-season series by an opposing center (jeez, you would be hard-pressed to find individual games, much less an entire series.) AND, the NBA instituted RULES to curtail Wilt's dominance (and virtually none of them had much impact against him.)

BTW, Wilt had SIX 70+ point games (not just four)...which is two more than all of the rest of the players in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED. He also had 32 60+ point games (Jordan and Kobe are next with five each)...which is also two more than all of the other 60+ point games in NBA HISTORY...COMBINED.

Regarding his scoring...he not only has the only three 38 ppg seasons in NBA history (unless you count Baylor's part-time season one year), he averaged nearly 40 ppg (39.4 ppg to be exact)...over the course of his first seven seasons...COMBINED.

And yet,


Wilt had all these records in the season, but in the playoffs in his own era guys like West and Baylor had more 40+ point games and more 30+ point games than he did despite Wilt playing in more playoffs games then they did.

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History

MJ - 109
Kobe - 78
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60


Not to mention his numbers dropped dramatically from season to playoffs. He averaged 7 ppg less in the playoffs and had a PER that dropped from 26.1 to 22.8
Also his WS/PER 48 dropped from .248 to .2000

[jlauber]

And yet,


Wilt had all these records in the season, but in the playoffs in his own era guys like West and Baylor had more 40+ point games and more 30+ point games than he did despite Wilt playing in more playoffs games then they did.

Most Career 40+ Point Games in Playoffs History

1. MJ = 38
2. West = 20
3. Baylor = 14
4. Wilt = 13
5. Shaq = 12
6. Hakeem = 11
Kobe = 11
Iverson = 10
9. Lebron = 9


Most Career 30+ Point Games in Playoffs History

MJ - 109
Kobe - 78
Kareem - 75
West -74
Baylor - 60


Not to mention his numbers dropped dramatically from season to playoffs. He averaged 7 ppg less in the playoffs and had a PER that dropped from 26.1 to 22.8
Also his WS/PER 48 dropped from .248 to .2000

I am currently posting my reply to this "decline" in another thread...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=165643&page=6