View Full Version : Nique & G.O.A.T.
sorry bout that , didn't mean to leave you hangin
son had an out of town bball tournament
do you guys follow high school ball
anyway , , couldn't find my original thread
but wanted to drop a lil som'n on u guys
.
Nique
assuming that your username is applicable
i think you'll get a kick out of this
1977 post nba merger
"hoops was walking on air in the late 70s with
the nba & ncaa on the verge of exploding"
McDonalds selected it's 1st HS AA team led by
Earvin Magic Johnson . . they faced the
D.C. all stars in the Capital Classic
.
1978 the inaugural McD AA game was the
first ever national HS all star game
mark aguirre was standout
the game was aight , but
.
1979
the whole game blew up
NCAA T - march madness began with magic & bird
NBA ASG - kareem , dr. j , pistol , gervin , moses
McD ASG - nique , ralph , isiah , worthy , byron
paxson , sam bowie , terry cummings etc.,
"Class of 79"
"Magnifique"
.
not because it's my graduating class , or that
my backcourt mate b scott was selected
truly
"it was an incredible class . . . . as far as i'm concerned the
class of 79 has stood the test of time . . . as fine a class
as there's ever been in high school basketball recruiting"
- famed DeMatha HS coach Morgan Wootten
.
"it was the greatest high school class in history . . . at least 40
players played in the nba . . . . the talent was unbelievable"
- Dominique Wilkins
3 Hall Of Famers
"the class was sick" . . . . collegehoops.com
.
1982 Draft
Top 3 picks
#1 worthy
#2 cummings
#3 wilkins
Top 10 picks
#5 thompson
#7 q dailey
#8 kellogg
#9 levingston
all junior eligibles
.
1983 Draft
5 Top 5 picks
#1 ralph
#2 stipanovich
#3 mccray
#4 byron
#5 s green
NO jr. elg. in top 10
clyde drexler was 14th pick
.
9 top 5 picks in 2 years
17 top 10 picks
this class even spilt over into 1984 draft as sam bowie
was taken 2nd overall , , , ahead of michael jordan
isiah was #2 pick in 1981 draft
.
"the greatest high school talent ever to play on one court"
ESPN
dominique recalls being nervous at the first practice
"antoine carr was dunking all over people that week
I blocked one of his dunks & caught it ,,, the gym
stopped . . . . . that's when i knew i belonged"
.
Chicago had 2 PGs selected to the team . . . isiah and
raymond mccoy stirred a city-wide debate where
southsiders favored mccoy - - westiders isiah
number of pubs had mccoy rated over zeke
"it was a benchmark class" . . . Bob Gibbons
"over the years i've spoken to nba players about the game
it was entertaining and something i don't forget"
dominique
mccoy , beaming with class pride
"we like to think 79 was the best ever"
.
Top 5 as of 2007
1979 - non-McD dale ellis , d harper , jeff malone , thurl
1995 - marbury , billups , KG , pierce , , vince carter
1981 - jordan , mullin , ewing , pinckney , vincent
1997 - baron , hughes , t-mac , odom , brand
1996 - kobe , bibby , r.i.p , s jax , j o'neal
- 2002 seems pretty solid with
melo , amare , bosh , felton and mccants
since 1979 every ncaa champion has featured a
McD AA except the 2002 Maryland Terrapins
.
i came across an interview with dominique as he
left georgia for springfield mass. HOF induction
where he was introduced by childhood hero
Dr. J
"I remember grabbing my moms wigs and running
around the house jumpin up n down screaming
'I'm the Doctor" . . . . . . nique
"i was his biggest fan"
.
.
as for bob mcadoo , probably can't tell you
anything you don't already know , but
check out his lengthy interview at
thestartingfive.net
i think you'll enjoy it .... goes into great detail
G O A T
"Arriving at a Top 50"
before i get started just wanna say that i think the
ONE thing that's being lost on this new generation
of fans is their believing that guys from the 70s
actual primes were from ages 26-28 like today
simply not the case , , these guys primes were their
college years and first 5-6 years in the league
Points/Years
wilt - 16k first 5 /// 10k next 5
k a j - 12k first 5 /// 9k next 5
dr. j - 11k first 5 /// 9k next 5
Doo - 11k first 5 /// 4k next 5
pete - 9k first 5 /// 5k next 5
reed - 8k first 5 /// 4k next 5
david t & pearl each had 8k then 5k
hav and frazier were jus diff dudes
evenstill , these guys weren't the trained
coached and conditioned athletes of today
with that said , do you really think it's fair
to judge players from the 70s by using
today's standards when at that time
the game itself was still in diapers
.
.
Top 50
you have a solid 6 at the top
altho the bottom is shaking
jordan ........ russ
kareem ....... wilt
magic ......... shaq
mix
bird ........... moses
dr. j .......... hakeem
duncan ...... kobe
Top 12
only 5 players have ever scored 30k
kareem , karl , jordan , wilt , dr. j
kobe needs 4k to join the club
jordan retired just shy of this mark
now you know why he returned
BIG 3
hakeem - #10 pts 26,9 / #12 reb 13,7 / #1 blk 3830
duncan - #34 pts 21k / #24 reb 11,6 / #13 blk 2296
moses - #6 pts 29,5 / #3 reb 17,8 / #22 blk 1889
west , oscar and baylor round out the Top 15
.
mix this old/new school group
pettit , cousy , barry , hav'cek , pistol , frazier vs
isiah , gervin , kg , barkley , malone and pippen
and add 3 from this group
pearl ............. walton
tiny .............. reed
stockton ....... mcadoo
and there's your Top 30
.
need 7 for Top 40
david t ....... iverson
wilkins ........ billy c
drexler ........ big E
cowens
.
Top 50
gus j ....... mchale
unseld ..... english
b king ...... j kidd
worthy .... payton
d j
ready to discuss lebron and wade
what about these guys
ewing ...... artis
d rob ....... haywood
parish ...... lucas
.
ewing - #21 pts 24,8 / #25 reb 11,6 / #7 blk 2894
d rob - #37 pts 20,7 / #33 reb 10,4 / #6 blk 2954
parish - #24 pts 23k / #8 reb 14,7 / #10 blk 2362
artis - #20 pts 25k / #5 reb 16,3 / #4 blk 3178
big E - #9 pts 27k / #6 reb 16k / #24 blk 1771
.
for reference
Dr. J - #5 pts 30k / #32 reb 10k / #21 blk 2k / #7 stl 2k
.
from GOAT in 77
to < Top 10 by 2000
KevinNYC
01-04-2011, 09:38 PM
Nice to see you Moses right up there with Hakeem after a recent thread on this board where most discounted Moses.
But Shaq above Bird? Maybe I'm discounting Shaq because I've never been a fan of Shaq's game, which was essentailly be the biggest dude on the court and bully your way to the basket. He was definitely dominant and more effective for longer, but Bird would do whatever you needed to do to win. Think of Bird's steal on Isiah and then dish to DJ for the layup. Not something Shaq could do. Also Bird was money in the clutch. Shaq usually got hacked in the clutch and then had pray his free throws would go in. 53% for his career. Dude has missed 6, 400 free throws.
here's a little factoid I just discovered.
If Larry Bird were to come out of retirement and miss his next 3,000 free-throw attempts (which would require him to shoot 0 percent for about seven seasons, based on his peak season of 492 free-throw attempts), he'd still have a higher career free-throw percentage than Shaq.
Niquesports
01-04-2011, 10:55 PM
sorry bout that , didn't mean to leave you hangin
son had an out of town bball tournament
do you guys follow high school ball
anyway , , couldn't find my original thread
but wanted to drop a lil som'n on u guys
.
Nique
assuming that your username is applicable
i think you'll get a kick out of this
1977 post nba merger
"hoops was walking on air in the late 70s with
the nba & ncaa on the verge of exploding"
McDonalds selected it's 1st HS AA team led by
Earvin Magic Johnson . . they faced the
D.C. all stars in the Capital Classic
.
1978 the inaugural McD AA game was the
first ever national HS all star game
mark aguirre was standout
the game was aight , but
.
1979
the whole game blew up
NCAA T - march madness began with magic & bird
NBA ASG - kareem , dr. j , pistol , gervin , moses
McD ASG - nique , ralph , isiah , worthy , byron
paxson , sam bowie , terry cummings etc.,
"Class of 79"
"Magnifique"
.
not because it's my graduating class , or that
my backcourt mate b scott was selected
truly
"it was an incredible class . . . . as far as i'm concerned the
class of 79 has stood the test of time . . . as fine a class
as there's ever been in high school basketball recruiting"
- famed DeMatha HS coach Morgan Wootten
.
"it was the greatest high school class in history . . . at least 40
players played in the nba . . . . the talent was unbelievable"
- Dominique Wilkins
3 Hall Of Famers
"the class was sick" . . . . collegehoops.com
.
1982 Draft
Top 3 picks
#1 worthy
#2 cummings
#3 wilkins
Top 10 picks
#5 thompson
#7 q dailey
#8 kellogg
#9 levingston
all junior eligibles
.
1983 Draft
5 Top 5 picks
#1 ralph
#2 stipanovich
#3 mccray
#4 byron
#5 s green
NO jr. elg. in top 10
clyde drexler was 14th pick
.
9 top 5 picks in 2 years
17 top 10 picks
this class even spilt over into 1984 draft as sam bowie
was taken 2nd overall , , , ahead of michael jordan
isiah was #2 pick in 1981 draft
.
"the greatest high school talent ever to play on one court"
ESPN
dominique recalls being nervous at the first practice
"antoine carr was dunking all over people that week
I blocked one of his dunks & caught it ,,, the gym
stopped . . . . . that's when i knew i belonged"
.
Chicago had 2 PGs selected to the team . . . isiah and
raymond mccoy stirred a city-wide debate where
southsiders favored mccoy - - westiders isiah
number of pubs had mccoy rated over zeke
"it was a benchmark class" . . . Bob Gibbons
"over the years i've spoken to nba players about the game
it was entertaining and something i don't forget"
dominique
mccoy , beaming with class pride
"we like to think 79 was the best ever"
.
Top 5 as of 2007
1979 - non-McD dale ellis , d harper , jeff malone , thurl
1995 - marbury , billups , KG , pierce , , vince carter
1981 - jordan , mullin , ewing , pinckney , vincent
1997 - baron , hughes , t-mac , odom , brand
1996 - kobe , bibby , r.i.p , s jax , j o'neal
- 2002 seems pretty solid with
melo , amare , bosh , felton and mccants
since 1979 every ncaa champion has featured a
McD AA except the 2002 Maryland Terrapins
.
i came across an interview with dominique as he
left georgia for springfield mass. HOF induction
where he was introduced by childhood hero
Dr. J
"I remember grabbing my moms wigs and running
around the house jumpin up n down screaming
'I'm the Doctor" . . . . . . nique
"i was his biggest fan"
.
.
as for bob mcadoo , probably can't tell you
anything you don't already know , but
check out his lengthy interview at
thestartingfive.net
i think you'll enjoy it .... goes into great detail
I was at that Capitol Classic game. I remembe Ralph Sampson trying to dribble the ball down court and the fans booing him. He had Derick Whittenburg (N.C. State) asking for the ball.
I remember Dominique in college. One of the most underrated players of all time. A scoring machine.
Great Post.
Niquesports
01-04-2011, 11:02 PM
G O A T
"Arriving at a Top 50"
before i get started just wanna say that i think the
ONE thing that's being lost on this new generation
of fans is their believing that guys from the 70s
actual primes were from ages 26-28 like today
simply not the case , , these guys primes were their
college years and first 5-6 years in the league
Points/Years
wilt - 16k first 5 /// 10k next 5
k a j - 12k first 5 /// 9k next 5
dr. j - 11k first 5 /// 9k next 5
Doo - 11k first 5 /// 4k next 5
pete - 9k first 5 /// 5k next 5
reed - 8k first 5 /// 4k next 5
david t & pearl each had 8k then 5k
hav and frazier were jus diff dudes
evenstill , these guys weren't the trained
coached and conditioned athletes of today
with that said , do you really think it's fair
to judge players from the 70s by using
today's standards when at that time
the game itself was still in diapers
.
.
Top 50
you have a solid 6 at the top
altho the bottom is shaking
jordan ........ russ
kareem ....... wilt
magic ......... shaq
mix
bird ........... moses
dr. j .......... hakeem
duncan ...... kobe
Top 12
only 5 players have ever scored 30k
kareem , karl , jordan , wilt , dr. j
kobe needs 4k to join the club
jordan retired just shy of this mark
now you know why he returned
BIG 3
hakeem - #10 pts 26,9 / #12 reb 13,7 / #1 blk 3830
duncan - #34 pts 21k / #24 reb 11,6 / #13 blk 2296
moses - #6 pts 29,5 / #3 reb 17,8 / #22 blk 1889
west , oscar and baylor round out the Top 15
.
mix this old/new school group
pettit , cousy , barry , hav'cek , pistol , frazier vs
isiah , gervin , kg , barkley , malone and pippen
and add 3 from this group
pearl ............. walton
tiny .............. reed
stockton ....... mcadoo
and there's your Top 30
.
need 7 for Top 40
david t ....... iverson
wilkins ........ billy c
drexler ........ big E
cowens
.
Top 50
gus j ....... mchale
unseld ..... english
b king ...... j kidd
worthy .... payton
ready to discuss lebron and wade
what about these guys
ewing ...... artis
d rob ....... haywood
parish
.
ewing - #21 pts 24,8 / #25 reb 11,6 / #7 blk 2894
d rob - #37 pts 20,7 / #33 reb 10,4 / #6 blk 2954
parish - #24 pts 23k / #8 reb 14,7 / #10 blk 2362
artis - #20 pts 25k / #5 reb 16,3 / #4 blk 3178
big E - #9 pts 27k / #6 reb 16k / #24 blk 1771
.
for reference
Dr. J - #5 pts 30k / #32 reb 10k / #21 blk 2k / #7 stl 2k
.
from GOAT in 77
to < Top 10 by 2000
Geat post a few guys you have overlooked.
Sam Jones, Hal Greer,and Nate Thurmond.
G.O.A.T
01-04-2011, 11:41 PM
G O A T
"Arriving at a Top 50"
before i get started just wanna say that i think the
ONE thing that's being lost on this new generation
of fans is their believing that guys from the 70s
actual primes were from ages 26-28 like today
simply not the case , , these guys primes were their
college years and first 5-6 years in the league
I agree 100%, except the part where this is the only thing lost on this generation of fans.
There are a lot of reasons that those guys primes were from 20-25 too.
#1, the athletic and medical training have progressed so far now that players can stay healthier for longer.
#2, Much more grueling schedules, most teams didn't have regular air travel until the 70's.
#3, Performance enhancing drugs...players heal faster, train longer, recover more completely etc.
Points/Years
wilt - 16k first 5 /// 10k next 5
k a j - 12k first 5 /// 9k next 5
dr. j - 11k first 5 /// 9k next 5
Doo - 11k first 5 /// 4k next 5
pete - 9k first 5 /// 5k next 5
reed - 8k first 5 /// 4k next 5
Solid evidence to an extent, but this is also true of a lot of star players of the last 20 years.
Also there are other factors to consider. For Wilt, the league he played in is #1, the pace and quality of athletes factored into his gargantuan numbers early on and his style change brought his scoring numbers down later.
For Dr. J and Kareem, their early years were spent in watered down leagues, that inflated their averages.
For Reed, Maravich and McAdoo, injuries and time are the reason for their drop in production.
with that said , do you really think it's fair
to judge players from the 70s by using
today's standards when at that time
the game itself was still in diapers
It's also not fair to punish modern players because the game has allowed them to evolve.
I see you're point, and I don;t judge all players by any of the same standards except one: Winning. That was the goal of every player, coach, fan and team since the start. Stats and styles change with era, but the objective remains the same. Win the ****ing game.
Top 50
you have a solid 6 at the top
altho the bottom is shaking
jordan ........ russ
kareem ....... wilt
magic ......... shaq
mix
bird ........... moses
dr. j .......... hakeem
duncan ...... kobe
I am with you on the top twelve except I have Mikan in their over Dr. J. Not sure how you can justify leaving Mikan out if you want people to allot for the evolution of the game.
Top 12
only 5 players have ever scored 30k
kareem , karl , jordan , wilt , dr. j
kobe needs 4k to join the club
jordan retired just shy of this mark
now you know why he returned
Jordan came back because he is ultra competitive, he, like me could probably care less about some 30K point club.
BIG 3
hakeem - #10 pts 26,9 / #12 reb 13,7 / #1 blk 3830
duncan - #34 pts 21k / #24 reb 11,6 / #13 blk 2296
moses - #6 pts 29,5 / #3 reb 17,8 / #22 blk 1889
west , oscar and baylor round out the Top 15
Still mostly on the same page, but how is Pettit out and Doc, West and Oscar in. Pettit has an NBA title as a #1 guy, none of those three do and he has as many MVP's as those three combined.
mix this old/new school group
pettit , cousy , barry , hav'cek , pistol , frazier vs
isiah , gervin , kg , barkley , malone and pippen
Putting Gervin in that group is slightly silly, Pistol Pete in that group is down right absurd. I love the Pistol, read my article on him in the original GOAT list thread, but he is at the VERY BEST a borderline top 50 guy. He never won anything and his numbers are not so significant as to elevate him into elite company.
and add 3 from this group
pearl ............. walton
tiny .............. reed
stockton ....... mcadoo
and there's your Top 30
What about Hayes, Unseld, Cowens?
How are they not ahead of Tiny Archibald and Bob McAdoo? Those guys did everything they did and much much more.
need 7 for Top 40
david t ....... iverson
wilkins ........ billy c
drexler ........ big E
cowens
gus j ....... mchale
unseld ..... english
b king ...... j kidd
worthy .... payton
Gus Johnson?
At his best he was a #1 three option on borderline contenders...
David Thompson had a shorter peak than some hills in my back yard and also won nothing.
Alex English led the 80's in scoring but it didn't amount to anything.
ready to discuss lebron and wade
what about these guys
ewing ...... artis
d rob ....... haywood
parish
David Robinson is so much better than anyone in that group (when talents and resume are considered) it's not funny.
Dr. J - #5 pts 30k / #32 reb 10k / #21 blk 2k / #7 stl 2k
from GOAT in 77
to < Top 10 by 2000
No one really thought he was the greatest ever in '77. At least not ebough folks to make that an argument. Also in '77 he hadn't even played a full NBA season, let alone half the years of pro ball that LeBron has already played.
I have Dr. J at #15 and I think that's about right.
You can't have him above the top 11 + Mikan, there is just no way.
I keep Oscar and West above him, but I can see the argument there.
Oh and as nique mentioned, you forgot Sam Jones, Hal Greer and Nate Thurmond. (also Debusschere, Dolph Schyaes, Dirk Nowitzki and Paul Arizin)
Thanks for your response though AAU, I enjoyed reading and learning.
jlauber
01-05-2011, 02:22 AM
Regarding Chamberlain, you can throw out the staggering numbers if you like, but his DIFFERENTIALS were also LIGHT YEARS ahead of EVERY player of his era.
And, in his "scoring" prime, from his rookie year until his 65-66 season, he not only averaged nearly 40 ppg...COMBINED...he also was the league's most efficient shooter...by a wide margin (and then he just annihilated his peers from 66-67 thru his last season in 72-73.) BUT, not only that, if you want to argue the greatness of Russell...Chamberlain averaged 34 ppg against Russell in those seven seasons, including two seasons of 38 ppg. In his 62-63 season, and against Russell in nine H2H games, he not only outrebounded him, he outscored by a 38-14 per game. We don't have their FG% numbers, but Wilt led the league in FG% at .528 (in fact, it was a new record at the time), while Russell shot .432. In Chamberlain's rookie season, in 11 H2H games against Russell, he outscored him, per game, 38-20...and while we don't have the 11th game's FG% numbers, in their first ten meetings, Wilt outshot Russell, H2H, from the floor, .465 to .398 (and Russell shot a career best .467 during the season.) In the 63-64 Finals, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 29-11, and outrebounded him, per game, 27-25. We don't have their FG% numbers in that post-season, but Wilt shot .543 in his 11 playoff games, while Russell shot .356 in his 10...and five were H2H. In the 64-65 ECF's, Wilt averaged a 30-31 game in his seven playoff games against Russell.
The facts were, in their 142 H2H games, Wilt not only outscored Russell by a 28.7 ppg to 14.5 ppg average, and outrebounded him by a 28.7 rpg to 23.7 rpg average...he probably outshot Russell by perhaps as much as a 100 points from the field. In their H2H games, series, and seasons, in which we do have their FG% numbers, Chamberlain was WAY AHEAD of Russell in shooting. Wilt outscored Russell in 132 of their 142 games, and had a 92-42-8 edge in rebounding in those games, as well. In fact, Wilt not only outscored Russell in EVERY H2H regular season and post-season, he also outrebounded Russell in EVERY H2H regular season and post-season. And, the overwhelming evidence suggests that he outshot Russell from the floor by a huge margin, as well.
Think about those numbers for a moment...Wilt nearly averaged a 30-30 game EVERY time the two faced each other...and he may have outshot Russell by a HUGE margin in the process.
So, ultimately...has there even been another great player, who so thoroughly dominated another great player, at least statistically, and in their PRIMES, as much as Chamberlain did to Russell?
Niquesports
01-05-2011, 05:55 AM
I agree 100%, except the part where this is the only thing lost on this generation of fans.
There are a lot of reasons that those guys primes were from 20-25 too.
#1, the athletic and medical training have progressed so far now that players can stay healthier for longer.
#2, Much more grueling schedules, most teams didn't have regular air travel until the 70's.
#3, Performance enhancing drugs...players heal faster, train longer, recover more completely etc.
Solid evidence to an extent, but this is also true of a lot of star players of the last 20 years.
Also there are other factors to consider. For Wilt, the league he played in is #1, the pace and quality of athletes factored into his gargantuan numbers early on and his style change brought his scoring numbers down later.
For Dr. J and Kareem, their early years were spent in watered down leagues, that inflated their averages.
For Reed, Maravich and McAdoo, injuries and time are the reason for their drop in production.
It's also not fair to punish modern players because the game has allowed them to evolve.
I see you're point, and I don;t judge all players by any of the same standards except one: Winning. That was the goal of every player, coach, fan and team since the start. Stats and styles change with era, but the objective remains the same. Win the ****ing game.
I am with you on the top twelve except I have Mikan in their over Dr. J. Not sure how you can justify leaving Mikan out if you want people to allot for the evolution of the game.
Jordan came back because he is ultra competitive, he, like me could probably care less about some 30K point club.
Still mostly on the same page, but how is Pettit out and Doc, West and Oscar in. Pettit has an NBA title as a #1 guy, none of those three do and he has as many MVP's as those three combined.
Putting Gervin in that group is slightly silly, Pistol Pete in that group is down right absurd. I love the Pistol, read my article on him in the original GOAT list thread, but he is at the VERY BEST a borderline top 50 guy. He never won anything and his numbers are not so significant as to elevate him into elite company.
What about Hayes, Unseld, Cowens?
How are they not ahead of Tiny Archibald and Bob McAdoo? Those guys did everything they did and much much more.
Gus Johnson?
At his best he was a #1 three option on borderline contenders...
David Thompson had a shorter peak than some hills in my back yard and also won nothing.
Alex English led the 80's in scoring but it didn't amount to anything.
David Robinson is so much better than anyone in that group (when talents and resume are considered) it's not funny.
No one really thought he was the greatest ever in '77. At least not ebough folks to make that an argument. Also in '77 he hadn't even played a full NBA season, let alone half the years of pro ball that LeBron has already played.
I have Dr. J at #15 and I think that's about right.
You can't have him above the top 11 + Mikan, there is just no way.
I keep Oscar and West above him, but I can see the argument there.
Oh and as nique mentioned, you forgot Sam Jones, Hal Greer and Nate Thurmond. (also Debusschere, Dolph Schyaes, Dirk Nowitzki and Paul Arizin)
Thanks for your response though AAU, I enjoyed reading and learning.
As always G.O.A.T. you bring up some great points some I agree with some I don't.
Dr J is so had to rank. He was the best player in his league (ABA) then after the merger was a top 5 playerin the NBA.Those that saw the two many would say Dr J was equal to Brid up until about 84.The battles they had were legendary.I think Dr. Elgin Baylor ,Rick Barry and Tiny will be forgotten stars in about 10 years. Just like Arzin,Dolph and Milkin are today.At his peak the Doc was as good as any player I have ever seen. Same I have been told about Elgin.I will always stand to I feel Rick Bary was just as good as Bird.
I also feel you over value winning. Oscar doesnt get half the respect he deserves mainly due to the fact he spend so many years on a weak Royals team.The management was disfunctional,poor coaching, and had to face the Sixers and Celtics in the playoffs. As great as he was no one could have lead the Royals to a championship under them conditions.That being said does George Gervin,Elgin Baylor,Chales Barkley, Pat Ewing skill get any better if they had the fourtune to play with superior support cast ?All played at a top 15 level yet just didnt have the support to win.Same with playes that won. Does winning 1 title make up for the other 6-10 years of a career?I remember in 78 Gervin was the greatest one man show I have ever seen including Jordan and Kobe. THe Bullets tried 4 diffeent people on him and he almost lead the Spurs past the eventual champion Bullets.DOes this not count in his favor,same as Dominique and King.I feel winning should be an advantage when a player is a 1 oe 2 option on multiple championship teams 3 or more at least.
Lastly I think the reason todays players are able to come in and have an immediate impact is because fo the most part the league is so young. In the 70's a rookie was coming in playing against grown men. In todays game only Kobe is a top 5 player that is over 30.
Nice to see you Moses right up there with Hakeem after a recent thread on this board where most discounted Moses.
But Shaq above Bird? Maybe I'm discounting Shaq because I've never been a fan of Shaq's game, which was essentailly be the biggest dude on the court and bully your way to the basket. He was definitely dominant and more effective for longer, but Bird would do whatever you needed to do to win. Think of Bird's steal on Isiah and then dish to DJ for the layup. Not something Shaq could do. Also Bird was money in the clutch. Shaq usually got hacked in the clutch and then had pray his free throws would go in. 53% for his career. Dude has missed 6, 400 free throws.
here's a little factoid I just discovered.
If Larry Bird were to come out of retirement and miss his next 3,000 free-throw attempts (which would require him to shoot 0 percent for about seven seasons, based on his peak season of 492 free-throw attempts), he'd still have a higher career free-throw percentage than Shaq.
anyone that thinks moses (the greatest ORB in L history) isn't
an all time great should stop talking about basketball
period
bird over shaq
no doubt he bullied his way most times but he also had
the skillset to dominate his opponents athletically
bird was great , no doubt , but you could put prime shaq
on the worst team and they become major contenders
instantly
bird definitely made some great plays and was one of the most
clutch players ever , but no way would i take him over shaq
not as dominant
shaq was a walking mis-match
I was at that Capitol Classic game. I remembe Ralph Sampson trying to dribble the ball down court and the fans booing him. He had Derick Whittenburg (N.C. State) asking for the ball.
I remember Dominique in college. One of the most underrated players of all time. A scoring machine.
Great Post.
thanks
did you check out that interview with Doo
Geat post a few guys you have overlooked.
Sam Jones, Hal Greer,and Nate Thurmond.
great players no doubt
beyond top 50 imo
Niquesports
01-05-2011, 04:41 PM
thanks
did you check out that interview with Doo
Yes Thaanks for the link I have been reading it all day
G O A T
definitely should have said "major" instead of "ONE" seeing that
there's definitely more than that being lost on this gen.
.
"that's true of a lot of stars the last 20 years"
barkley - 8k first 5 /// 9k next 5
wilkins - 10k first 5 /// 10k next 5
duncan - 8k first 5 /// 8k next 5
drexler - 7k first 5 /// 8k next 5
jordan - 13k first 5 /// 12k next 5
k g - 6k first 5 /// 9k next 5
a i - 9k first 5 /// 10k next 5
not hardly
.
re wilt i believe his playing style changed
because he was no longer in his prime
re kareem and doc i can't agree that the L was
watered down . . . down from what , the 60s
up to that point the league had never been
that great or deeply talented to have
become watered down . . . . . . .
these guys weren't jacking moves , if they did make
a great move more times than not they invented it
.
not punishing them , just respecting those that came
before them and had a greater impact on the game
as far as it's evolution . . . . . . . for instance
if you were the first guy to build a car that lasted 5 years
then i came along and built a car that lasted 10 years
would i be considered as having a greater impact
on car making than you . . i wouldn't think so
however , had i made a car that could fly
.
i forgot to include him but mikan gets the
ULTIMATE HONORABLE MENTION
he had no peers
.
pettit was aight
doc , oscar and west had greater impact imo
.
jordan could care less about 30k??!!
severely disagree with you on that GOAT
if he was that competitive he sure as
hell wouldn't have come back with
the wizards
.
george gervin doesn't belong in top 20??!!
the greatest perimeter scorer the league had ever seen
the inventor of the 'fingeroll from 15ft"
too smooth
.
pistol just brought too much to the game for me to rank
him less than top 40 . . . if you believe there are 50
or even 40 players more deserving than pistol
ain't nothing i can tell you
.
re mcadoo
just love what he brought to the game
a joy to watch , set the league on fire from day one
scoringwise his first 4 years in the L can stack up with anybody
re archibald
the absolute first of his kind
2700 points , 900 assists in the same season
unheard of
.
not saying he'd definitely make it but it would take a
great argument for me to displace gus j from top 50
.
re david thompson
much like the doctor and pistol
dude just brought too much to the game
.
was never an english fan but dude was simply unstoppable
could score at will and wasn't shit you could do about it
.
david robinson was aight , too soft for my liking
didn't like how he bitched up around shaq
.
didn't forget jones , greer and the others
they're just beyond top 50 players imo
.
great retort
thanks for the response
.
.
doc not the goat in 77
. . . . . who was?
G.O.A.T
01-05-2011, 08:40 PM
doc not the goat in 77
. . . . . who was?
Bill Russell was voted greatest in 1980 by a panel of NBA experts...
I think in '77 the debate was probably between Russell, Wilt and Kareem with Doc being the fastest rising candidate. I think Oscar probably still had some people in his camp then too as their have always been those who prefer perimeter players to their more proven post playing peers.
You have to remember, and correct me if I am wrong, but there were a lot of ABA detractors and even though they could not deny Doc's brilliance and his undeniable game, they wondered how well it would translate to the NBA and the more team oriented style.
Doc entered the NBA on a contender, Philadelphia in 76-77 and from then through the 1981-82 he never captured an NBA title.
I think people calling him the greatest then are a lot like those who called Bird the greatest circa 1985-86, they were projecting how they imagined the rest of their careers would play out.
Oh and in regards to the league being watered down in the 70's. It very much was. After all, in 1966 there were nine NBA teams and no rival leagues. By 1973 the league had doubled in size and added a ten team rival in the ABA. So now, in six years, the number of pro basketball players had grown from just over 100 to more than 300...that's going to water down the league. Throw in the increased use of cocaine by the mid-late 70's and you've got a pretty messed up wacky league. It's the only decade in NBA history without a repeat Champion, there is a pretty logically explanation as to why. I think so anyway.
Niquesports
01-05-2011, 09:22 PM
Bill Russell was voted greatest in 1980 by a panel of NBA experts...
I think in '77 the debate was probably between Russell, Wilt and Kareem with Doc being the fastest rising candidate. I think Oscar probably still had some people in his camp then too as their have always been those who prefer perimeter players to their more proven post playing peers.
You have to remember, and correct me if I am wrong, but there were a lot of ABA detractors and even though they could not deny Doc's brilliance and his undeniable game, they wondered how well it would translate to the NBA and the more team oriented style.
Doc entered the NBA on a contender, Philadelphia in 76-77 and from then through the 1981-82 he never captured an NBA title.
I think people calling him the greatest then are a lot like those who called Bird the greatest circa 1985-86, they were projecting how they imagined the rest of their careers would play out.
Oh and in regards to the league being watered down in the 70's. It very much was. After all, in 1966 there were nine NBA teams and no rival leagues. By 1973 the league had doubled in size and added a ten team rival in the ABA. So now, in six years, the number of pro basketball players had grown from just over 100 to more than 300...that's going to water down the league. Throw in the increased use of cocaine by the mid-late 70's and you've got a pretty messed up wacky league. It's the only decade in NBA history without a repeat Champion, there is a pretty logically explanation as to why. I think so anyway.
It would be interesting to know how many former ABA players made NBA teams. aside from the players on the 4 teams that joined the league.I question if it was a lack of talent or players being blackballed .I don't recall any role players making it.
Bill Russell was voted greatest in 1980 by a panel of NBA experts...
I think in '77 the debate was probably between Russell, Wilt and Kareem with Doc being the fastest rising candidate. I think Oscar probably still had some people in his camp then too as their have always been those who prefer perimeter players to their more proven post playing peers.
You have to remember, and correct me if I am wrong, but there were a lot of ABA detractors and even though they could not deny Doc's brilliance and his undeniable game, they wondered how well it would translate to the NBA and the more team oriented style.
Doc entered the NBA on a contender, Philadelphia in 76-77 and from then through the 1981-82 he never captured an NBA title.
I think people calling him the greatest then are a lot like those who called Bird the greatest circa 1985-86, they were projecting how they imagined the rest of their careers would play out.
Oh and in regards to the league being watered down in the 70's. It very much was. After all, in 1966 there were nine NBA teams and no rival leagues. By 1973 the league had doubled in size and added a ten team rival in the ABA. So now, in six years, the number of pro basketball players had grown from just over 100 to more than 300...that's going to water down the league. Throw in the increased use of cocaine by the mid-late 70's and you've got a pretty messed up wacky league. It's the only decade in NBA history without a repeat Champion, there is a pretty logically explanation as to why. I think so anyway.
"league watered down in the 70s . . . 9 team in 66"
yep , , , 9 teams . . . . and 9 players
3 of them were on the same team
.
"by 73 league had doubled in size"
true , but that's not being watered down , that's expansion
you're likening it to the 90s from the 80s when the league
was filled with great teams and great players . . . by 73
there'd only been ONE true winner and ONE great team
how do you get watered down from that
the league was getting better
69-70 reed and ny won the title
70-71 kareem won the title
71-72 wilt won the title
72-73 reed won again
you're telling me the league was getting worse
that's 4 diff championship teams right there
in just 4 years , much greater than the
60s with it's ONE dominant team
.
"in 6 years grew from 100 players to over 300"
yep , as the talent level was increasing exponentially
how can the league be watering down when the
talent pool was greater thus creating better
teams and a better more competitive L
.
"pretty logical explanation why no repeat champions"
really
i'd like to hear your explanation because it definitely
wasn't because the league was getting worse
or that the level of talent was decreasing
explain
.
Russell GOAT in 77
best player on the lone great team
yep
best player in the league
uh-uh
the best players at this time were the guys who put the ball
in the basket the most . . . that's who got paid the most
if you believe guys cared more about winning than getting
paid when most of them didn't have a pot to piss in
can't agree with you
not saying winning wasn't important , it just wasn't most important
to these guys when their immediate backdrop was segregation
poverty , police brutality and malcolm x/mlk assassinations
not buying it GOAT
.
as for kareem and/or wilt being GOAT in 77
wouldn't argue that prop vehemently
super great players
personally , i'm more impressed with the guy that can get his own
and is not reliant upon someone else getting them the ball
it's far more difficult to create offense from the perimeter off the
dribble than it is to catch and score the ball from 3-6 feet
requires far more talent and skill , , that's my mitigator
.
"remember there were plenty of ABA detractors"
really??!! . . . . i wonder who had their support
care to guess?
.
"they wondered how doc's game would translate to
the nba and the more team oriented style of play"
76-77 Doc's first year in league
ASG MVP on losing squad
led team to the finals
.
"doc entered league on a contender"
really? . . . . 75-76
the 6ers , with the same exact roster , minus the Dr.
went 46-36 and 1stR exit , lost to Mcadoo 28/14
while doc was in aba title game holding david thompson
to less than his 26 ppg in 3 of the 6 games while
averaging 37.6 against def. spec. bobby jones
.
76-77
50-32 - 1st place finish . . . 1st finals appearance
i already know . . . no translation necessary
coincidence
let's see how he transitioned with new teammates
doc - 21 on 50% ........ mcginnis 21 on 46%
was meshing well together
then came the playoffs
doc - 27/6/4 on 52%
g mac 14 on 37% - 57% ft on 114 att
former aba foe tried to upstage doc and be the hero
wound up with zero , , , , , doc carried this bum
.
77-78
again
55-27 - 1st place finish . . . the 2 meshing well together
doc - 20 on 50% ...... g mac 20 on 46%
then came the playoffs
doc - 22/10/4 49% ....... g mac 14 on 42%
this dude singlehandedly cost doc 2 titles
world b free outplayed this clown
.
78-79
traded mcginnis and world for bobby jones
went 47-35 and 2nd place finish
doc said
"january i was playing my best ball since nba" avg 29 on 60%
severely sprained ankle in february , , never fully recovered
lost in 2nd round to spurs and gervin who had become the
1st guard to win back-to-back scoring titles in L history
en route to 3 consecutive scoring titles . . . . . yeah
you right , , it's downright silly to rank him top 20
.
1979 sports illustrated article entitled
"what's up with the Doc"
"has his skills diminished or victim of selfish teammates
. . . . . seemed more ordinary than super legendary"
.
"the only mark of a true superstar is to inspire his
teammates to levels they wouldn't hit on their own
doc hasn't done this his 2 years in nba playing with
"bobbleheads" like mcg , dawkins , free and jellybean"
- al bianchi suns asst and future knicks gm
.
79-80
59-23 - 2nd place finish
doc - 27/7/4/2/2 on 52% - next highest player
d d - 14ppg / 8 rpg
playoffs
doc - 24/7/4/2/2 on 48%
d d - 17ppg / 7 rpg
crushed BIRD 4-1 and reached FINALS
doc - 25/7/5 on 52% - mem. dunk over coop & baseline reverse
d d - 20 on 53% - stepped up a lil bit , but only 6 rpg
magic was too much
.
80-81
62-20 - 1st place finish
"1st non-center named MVP"
30 years old still carrying these dudes
24/8/4 on 52% . . next guy dd 14/7
lost to BIRD in ECF 4-3 b jones avg more pts/reb than dd
.
81-82
58-24 2nd place finish
dawkins avgd 11/6 rs 11/4 ps still
beat BIRD again 4-3 to reach FINALS
where once again , lost to magic 4-2 his 2nd fmvp 1st 3 years
.
82-83
33 years old - finally got a real center
wrecked the league - went 65-17
Won 1st NBA title
.
the media may have pimped russell , wilt and kareem
but in the hood , there were no sheep
it was all about "the Doctor"
.
never seen on tv
but known worldwide
.
"there has been some better people off the court
like a few mothers and the Pope , but there
was only one Dr. J , the player"
pat riley
.
"if not for Dr. J the nba probably wouldn't have absorbed
four aba teams , , , , , , , plenty of players have been
"The Franchise" , but for us , Dr. J is "The League"
ABA Commissioner Dave DeBusschere
check bird's first 4 years in the league
good for 22/10/5/2/1 on 49% during regular seasons
playoffs?
.
79-80 - lost to doc in 5 - bird avg 21/11 on 47%
80-81 - Cornbread FMVP - bird avg 15 on 42% in finals
81-82 - lost to doc in ECF - bird avg 17/12 on 42%
82-83 - swept 4-0 MIL ECS - bird avg 20/12 on 42%
.
magic was dominating the league with 2 FMVP in 3 years
bird was putting up garbage numbers in the playoffs
why no
"has bird lost his wings" type articles
G.O.A.T
01-07-2011, 02:49 PM
Re: The watering down of pro basketball in the 1970's.
There is no way that from 1966 to 1973 that the number of quality athletes and skilled pro basketball players tripled.
That's just not possible. It's obvious and factual that the NBA was more competitive in 1966 than it was each year following.
Now, I do think the talent pool was growing at an all-time rate at that point. In addition coaching and training philosophies had become infinitely more advanced and effective so the game was getting better, but the talent level of the average player was temporarily going down.
Look at how these five players whose careers spanned the early-mid sixties through the mid-seventies, saw a spike in production and efficiency after age 25 when the league began to expand.
Lenny Wilkens - (1960-1967, age 23-29 - 16-5-5 41%) (1967-1974, age 30-36 - 18-5-8 44%)
John Havlicek - (1963-1967, age 22-26 - 18-6-3 42%) (1967-1976, age 27-35 - 23-7-6 45%)
Bill Bridges - (1961-1966, age 22-26 - 10-9-2 40%) (1966-1973, age 27-33 - 14-14-3 47%)
Jeff Mullins - (1964-1967, age 22-24 - 9-3-2 42%) (1967-1975, age 25-32 - 17-5-4 47%)
Don Nelson - (1962-1967, age 22-26 - 7-4-1 43%) (1967-1976, age 27-35 - 13-6-2 50%)
There are just too many other examples as well of guys whose numbers went up at that time. Think about it this way, in 1966 there were 45 starting spots in pro basketball, by 1970, just four years later, there were 125. Even if we discount most of the ABA at that time, they still had the likes of Mel Daniels, Spencer Haywood, Connie Hawkins, Rick Barry and Roger Brown. All of who would have unquestionably been starters in the NBA.
Then there are unknown's, the what-if's?
What if Doctor J goes to Milwuakee with Kareem?
What if Rick Barry doesn't jump leagues?
What if Gilmore comes to the Bulls in '72 etc.
And then there are the more subtle ones, too many to name, but as one example:
What if Baltimore's 1967 second round pick, Jimmy Jones comes to the NBA instead of the ABA?
Jones, a 6'4" wing, would go on to lead the ABA in field goal and fre throw percentage in separate seasons, make five all-star games and three all-ABA first teams in his first six years. Throw him in with Unseld, Gus Johnson and Pearl and maybe that group gets a title and Monroe never teams up with Clyde.
The point overall being, is that the league had clearly slipped in terms of talent per team even if overall their were more talented players around.
Multiple teams winning titles does not speak to the increased talent level of teams, but rather the opposite, it is parity. Like the modern NFL. You didn't have "GREAT" teams in the 70's like you did in the 60's and 80's. The '71 Bucks and '72 Lakers respectively each had just three players who EVER made an all-star team on their roster. Compare that with the '63 Celtics that had nine one-time all-stars on their team or the '86 Celtics and '82 Lakers which each had six, and you can see how the talent was just getting spread to thin.
To further illustrate my point, post merger, a number of players really fell off the map. Take the following examples:
Jim Price, an all-star guard for the Lakers in 1975, averaged 15, 16 and 12 ppg in the three season before the merger. Post merger he never hit double-figures for a season again.
Slammin' Sam Lacey averaged a double-double every season from the time he entered the league in 1971 until 1976 the last year before the merger. After the merger, he never averaged a double-double again, not once.
Sidney Wicks before the merger (1971-1976, age 22-26 - 23-10-4 48%)
Sidney Wicks after the merger (1976-1981, age 27-31 - 10-8-2 44%)
Charlie Scott's PPG numbers by year (Scott was 27 when the leagues merged)
71 (ABA) 27.1
72 (ABA) 34.6
73 (NBA) 25.3
74 (NBA) 25.4
75 (NBA) 24.3
76 (NBA) 17.6
--------(merger)
77 (NBA) 18.2
78 (NBA) 13.5
79 (NBA) 12.0
80 (NBA) 9.3
Curtis Rowe was an all-star in '76 and averaged 10-5 in '77
He had averaged 11, 16, 12, 16 and 11 ppg five NBA seasons pre-merger.
After the merger he never averaged more than 10 ppg and was out of the league in three years before age 30.
In addition to all the individual evidence, most damning of all was the return of the dynasties. By 1981, the Lakers and Celtics had each won titles on their way to capturing eight of nine from 80-88. They paved the way for the Bulls to win six of the next ten with the Pistons and Rockets repeats leading up to each of their three-peats. Following them, the Lakers and Spurs took seven of the next nine and now again it's Boston and LA having accounted for five of the last six finals appearances.
Basketball is a sport of dynasties when it's done right.
From 1952-1969 and 1980-2010, just 12 teams have won the NBA Championship. Of those 12 teams, only the 76ers (three times), Spurs (four times), Warriors (once), Hawks (once) and Heat (once) do not have at least one back-to-back to their name.
In the 1970's eight different teams claimed titles in ten seasons with only the Knicks and Celtics winning multiple titles and no repeat winners.
The league was indisputably watered down.
Champ
01-07-2011, 03:55 PM
check bird's first 4 years in the league
good for 22/10/5/2/1 on 49% during regular seasons
playoffs?
.
79-80 - lost to doc in 5 - bird avg 21/11 on 47%
80-81 - Cornbread FMVP - bird avg 15 on 42% in finals
81-82 - lost to doc in ECF - bird avg 17/12 on 42%
82-83 - swept 4-0 MIL ECS - bird avg 20/12 on 42%
.
magic was dominating the league with 2 FMVP in 3 years
bird was putting up garbage numbers in the playoffs
why no
"has bird lost his wings" type articles
AAU -- I appreciate your thoughtful analysis, but the above figures selectively cast Bird in a negative light just by what you choose to highlight, in addition to rounding the numbers down.
See below for a different perspective.
79-80 - 21-11-5. Solid rookie numbers.
80-81 - 22-14-6, w/2 stl and 1blk/game (and 44 MPG :applause:). True, Max got the finals MVP, but you could easily argue it for Bird because of his all-around game and clutch play, especially down the stretch in the deciding contest.
You're spot on about the low FG% the next to years, but he still posted very respectable all around numbers when you look at the playoffs in their entirety.
81-82 - 18-13-6 (playing without Archibald in the ECF against Philly)
82-83 - 21-13-7
I'll take the above 'garbage' numbers any day.
Great topic.
Niquesports
01-07-2011, 05:07 PM
Re: The watering down of pro basketball in the 1970's.
There is no way that from 1966 to 1973 that the number of quality athletes and skilled pro basketball players tripled.
That's just not possible. It's obvious and factual that the NBA was more competitive in 1966 than it was each year following.
Now, I do think the talent pool was growing at an all-time rate at that point. In addition coaching and training philosophies had become infinitely more advanced and effective so the game was getting better, but the talent level of the average player was temporarily going down.
Look at how these five players whose careers spanned the early-mid sixties through the mid-seventies, saw a spike in production and efficiency after age 25 when the league began to expand.
Lenny Wilkens - (1960-1967, age 23-29 - 16-5-5 41%) (1967-1974, age 30-36 - 18-5-8 44%)
John Havlicek - (1963-1967, age 22-26 - 18-6-3 42%) (1967-1976, age 27-35 - 23-7-6 45%)
Bill Bridges - (1961-1966, age 22-26 - 10-9-2 40%) (1966-1973, age 27-33 - 14-14-3 47%)
Jeff Mullins - (1964-1967, age 22-24 - 9-3-2 42%) (1967-1975, age 25-32 - 17-5-4 47%)
Don Nelson - (1962-1967, age 22-26 - 7-4-1 43%) (1967-1976, age 27-35 - 13-6-2 50%)
There are just too many other examples as well of guys whose numbers went up at that time. Think about it this way, in 1966 there were 45 starting spots in pro basketball, by 1970, just four years later, there were 125. Even if we discount most of the ABA at that time, they still had the likes of Mel Daniels, Spencer Haywood, Connie Hawkins, Rick Barry and Roger Brown. All of who would have unquestionably been starters in the NBA.
Then there are unknown's, the what-if's?
What if Doctor J goes to Milwuakee with Kareem?
What if Rick Barry doesn't jump leagues?
What if Gilmore comes to the Bulls in '72 etc.
And then there are the more subtle ones, too many to name, but as one example:
What if Baltimore's 1967 second round pick, Jimmy Jones comes to the NBA instead of the ABA?
Jones, a 6'4" wing, would go on to lead the ABA in field goal and fre throw percentage in separate seasons, make five all-star games and three all-ABA first teams in his first six years. Throw him in with Unseld, Gus Johnson and Pearl and maybe that group gets a title and Monroe never teams up with Clyde.
The point overall being, is that the league had clearly slipped in terms of talent per team even if overall their were more talented players around.
Multiple teams winning titles does not speak to the increased talent level of teams, but rather the opposite, it is parity. Like the modern NFL. You didn't have "GREAT" teams in the 70's like you did in the 60's and 80's. The '71 Bucks and '72 Lakers respectively each had just three players who EVER made an all-star team on their roster. Compare that with the '63 Celtics that had nine one-time all-stars on their team or the '86 Celtics and '82 Lakers which each had six, and you can see how the talent was just getting spread to thin.
To further illustrate my point, post merger, a number of players really fell off the map. Take the following examples:
Jim Price, an all-star guard for the Lakers in 1975, averaged 15, 16 and 12 ppg in the three season before the merger. Post merger he never hit double-figures for a season again.
Slammin' Sam Lacey averaged a double-double every season from the time he entered the league in 1971 until 1976 the last year before the merger. After the merger, he never averaged a double-double again, not once.
Sidney Wicks before the merger (1971-1976, age 22-26 - 23-10-4 48%)
Sidney Wicks after the merger (1976-1981, age 27-31 - 10-8-2 44%)
Charlie Scott's PPG numbers by year (Scott was 27 when the leagues merged)
71 (ABA) 27.1
72 (ABA) 34.6
73 (NBA) 25.3
74 (NBA) 25.4
75 (NBA) 24.3
76 (NBA) 17.6
--------(merger)
77 (NBA) 18.2
78 (NBA) 13.5
79 (NBA) 12.0
80 (NBA) 9.3
Curtis Rowe was an all-star in '76 and averaged 10-5 in '77
He had averaged 11, 16, 12, 16 and 11 ppg five NBA seasons pre-merger.
After the merger he never averaged more than 10 ppg and was out of the league in three years before age 30.
In addition to all the individual evidence, most damning of all was the return of the dynasties. By 1981, the Lakers and Celtics had each won titles on their way to capturing eight of nine from 80-88. They paved the way for the Bulls to win six of the next ten with the Pistons and Rockets repeats leading up to each of their three-peats. Following them, the Lakers and Spurs took seven of the next nine and now again it's Boston and LA having accounted for five of the last six finals appearances.
Basketball is a sport of dynasties when it's done right.
From 1952-1969 and 1980-2010, just 12 teams have won the NBA Championship. Of those 12 teams, only the 76ers (three times), Spurs (four times), Warriors (once), Hawks (once) and Heat (once) do not have at least one back-to-back to their name.
In the 1970's eight different teams claimed titles in ten seasons with only the Knicks and Celtics winning multiple titles and no repeat winners.
The league was indisputably watered down.
Im just going off the top of my head. So If Im wrong I will sit down and confirm my thinking.
YOu named a few players that careers took a dip after the merger. But you didnt mention some of the factors like Wicks mixed up in that Celtic pre Bird mess. Same with Rowe.Charlie Scott went from a main scorer to a play maker much like Pearl did. It wasnt so much he was less a player but had a different role.As far as Hondo and Nelli numbers improving we both know that because their roles changed. Nelli was a big time scorer I think it was at Iowa he came to the Celtics and became a role player until his time came much like Mchale to a lesser degree.
Call me crazy but the league was in trouble at the time. Boston or should I say Red steal Bird in a draft pick that had never been done and hasn't been done since then the lakers get a steal to get Magic . I think the league had something to do with that. Just like in the first lottery pick New York get Ewing.
What hurt the 70's was you didnt have fancy teams winning after the Knicks and lakers. You had the Bucks a small market team, The Blazers ,The Warriors, Bullets, Sonics ,.The ABA didn't really hurt the NBA . As I posted how many players outside the players on the teams that came over made NBA rosters ? The 70's might be the ugly middle child of the NBA . But us that grew up watching it at the time dint know it. THat Suns Celtics what was it 3 overtime finals was the greatest finals game I ever saw. David Thompson and George Gervin last game of the season shoot out was crazy.Rick Barry one of the best players this game has ever seen shooting the 5th grade girl foul shot who can forget that. Then the fights it was like hockey not the girl scout league that we have today. Was it watered down no not imo did the league need to favor big market teams to grow yes and so it did just that.
1966 players
wilt
oscar
west
baylor
havcek
barry
russell
greer
gus j
billy c
s jones
reed
chet
bellamy
dave deb
lucas
nate t
kc jones
goodrich
rodgers
20 players
.
1973
kareem
dr. j
gervin
artis
big e
haywood
cowens
pistol
unseld
jj white
tiny nate
frazier
monroe
j silas
issel
van lier
hudson
bing
mcadoo
dandridge
hawkins
lanier
mcginnis
daniels
b love
c scott
a clark
chenier
c murphy
boone
wise
calvin
dampier
chones
b taylor
f lewis
st jones
r brown
l jones
simpson
40 players
impossible you say
.
"parity"
so you think it's better to have 1 dominant team
than a more balanced and competitive league
.
"it's factual the nba was more competitive in 1966"
wow
9 team league - 6 teams in playoffs
just 2 teams won 50 games
STL 36-44 made playoffs
BAL 38-42 made playoffs
.
1973 nba
17 teams - 8 teams in playoffs - 6 with 50 wins
worst playoff teams ATL 46-36 / GS 47-35
only playoff teams to not win 50 games
1973 aba ..... 10 teams - 4 won 50 games
.
"league clearly slipped in talent per team
even with more talented players around"
1966
check playoff teams
cin - oscar and lucas
bal - gus j and bellamy
phi - wilt , billyc , greer and chet
bos - russ , s & kc jones and havlicek
stl - damn , who's their best player paul silas?
lakers won 45 games got a 1st round bye
then reached finals with west , goodrich and
baylor on one leg . . . with no bigman what
soever they still took the celtics to 7gms
.
73 nba playoff teams
la - wilt , goodrich and west
gs - barry , nate t and cazzie
ny - frazier , monroe , reed , lucas , bradley & deB
bal - k porter , chenier , clark , big e and unseld
bos - cowens , havlicek , westphal and jo jo white
.
73 aba finals squads
ind - mcginnis , hillman , daniels , freeman , f lewis
kty - w ladner , issel , gilmore , m gale , dampier
.
66 celtics would have hell with either team
AAU -- I appreciate your thoughtful analysis, but the above figures selectively cast Bird in a negative light just by what you choose to highlight, in addition to rounding the numbers down.
See below for a different perspective.
79-80 - 21-11-5. Solid rookie numbers.
80-81 - 22-14-6, w/2 stl and 1blk/game (and 44 MPG :applause:). True, Max got the finals MVP, but you could easily argue it for Bird because of his all-around game and clutch play, especially down the stretch in the deciding contest.
You're spot on about the low FG% the next to years, but he still posted very respectable all around numbers when you look at the playoffs in their entirety.
81-82 - 18-13-6 (playing without Archibald in the ECF against Philly)
82-83 - 21-13-7
I'll take the above 'garbage' numbers any day.
Great topic.
you misconstrued . . . i said bird was good for
22/10 on 49% thru his first 4 reg seasons
but what about them playoff numbers
will you take those as well
[QUOTE=Niquesports]The 79 Sonics QUOTE]
dj , gus and downtown freddie brown
this was my fav team at the time
these guys were lethal ...... b2b finals
revenge title over defending champs
- man i loved this team
while not on the same level as
magic , byron and coop
i think they could definitely get with
isiah , dumars and vinnie or even
frazier , monroe and bibby
dr. j and david t were my alltime favorite players
gus wms was my favorite pg in the league the
way he used to wear norm nixon's ass out
that was fun to watch
G.O.A.T
01-07-2011, 10:45 PM
1966 players
wilt
oscar
west
baylor[QUOTE=aau]
havcek
barry
russell
greer
gus j
billy c
s jones
reed
chet
bellamy
dave deb
lucas
nate t
kc jones
goodrich
rodgers
20 players
.
1973
kareem
dr. j
gervin
artis
big e
haywood
cowens
pistol
unseld
jj white
tiny nate
frazier
monroe
j silas
issel
van lier
hudson
bing
mcadoo
dandridge
hawkins
lanier
mcginnis
daniels
b love
c scott
a clark
chenier
c murphy
boone
wise
calvin
dampier
chones
b taylor
f lewis
st jones
r brown
l jones
simpson
40 players
impossible you say
Thank you for illustrating and proving my point so well. You only named twice as many players and had to use players that were no where near the same level of those in the above group. Brian Taylor, Mac Calvin, Jim Chones? All but three players from your '66 list are in the hall, half of those from the '73 aren't.
And even then the bigger difference is not in the quality of the top tier players, but the average and role players.
"parity"
so you think it's better to have 1 dominant team
than a more balanced and competitive league
Obviously yes. The 80's, 60's and the Jordan years were the NBA's three peaks in popularity...you tell me if dynasties or parity are better for the sport.
"it's factual the nba was more competitive in 1966"
9 team league - 6 teams in playoffs
just 2 teams won 50 games
STL 36-44 made playoffs
BAL 38-42 made playoffs
A league's playoff structure does indicate it's strength, nor do the records of playoff teams. Or any W-L records for that matter. Understanding that their is a winner and a loser in every game, the leagues W-L percentage is going to be the same no matter how good the teams are.
1973 nba
17 teams - 8 teams in playoffs - 6 with 50 wins
worst playoff teams ATL 46-36 / GS 47-35
only playoff teams to not win 50 games
1973 aba ..... 10 teams - 4 won 50 games
critical thinking time. Did more teams win more games at the top because those teams were better, or because their were 4-6 expansion level rosters and because the tops teams played each other half as many times per season?
"league clearly slipped in talent per team
even with more talented players around"
1966
check playoff teams
cin - oscar and lucas
bal - gus j and bellamy
phi - wilt , billyc , greer and chet
bos - russ , s & kc jones and havlicek
stl - damn , who's their best player paul silas?
lakers won 45 games got a 1st round bye
then reached finals with west , goodrich and
baylor on one leg . . . with no bigman what
soever they still took the celtics to 7gms
St. Louis had Cliff Hagan, Lenny Wilkens, Richie Guerin and Zelmo Beaty, plus Joe Caldwell, another player whose numbers soared after expansion. And speaking of Silas, another guy who mysteriously got way better after expansion.
73 nba playoff teams
la - wilt , goodrich and west
gs - barry , nate t and cazzie
ny - frazier , monroe , reed , lucas , bradley & deB
bal - k porter , chenier , clark , big e and unseld
bos - cowens , havlicek , westphal and jo jo white
.
73 aba finals squads
ind - mcginnis , hillman , daniels , freeman , f lewis
kty - w ladner , issel , gilmore , m gale , dampier
No sure what listing names does to prove your point, it shows me that you're not understanding mine though.
There were more HOFers starting for teams in 1966 then in 1973 despite their being twice as many teams. Explain that?
And again, most of all your missing the main point. I can find you four-eight rosters that have no chance to compete in 1973, in the 60's there would maybe be one bad team a year.
Explain also why the NBA record for consecutive wins was broken in '70, '71 and again in '72?
Mostly just explain how having players spread out between two leagues makes one league better?
This is not an attack on the 70's but all you're doing is making ignorant people who think it was a weak era across the board believe that false perception.
If you can't admit the NBA was less competitive during the expansion and ABA years, than you are just being stubborn and pigheaded. There is simply no way you can add that many teams and not lose something in the quality on the floor. It's just the reality of the situation, not my opinion.
Niquesports
01-08-2011, 04:55 AM
[QUOTE=aau]1966 players
wilt
oscar
west
baylor
Thank you for illustrating and proving my point so well. You only named twice as many players and had to use players that were no where near the same level of those in the above group. Brian Taylor, Mac Calvin, Jim Chones? All but three players from your '66 list are in the hall, half of those from the '73 aren't.
And even then the bigger difference is not in the quality of the top tier players, but the average and role players.
Obviously yes. The 80's, 60's and the Jordan years were the NBA's three peaks in popularity...you tell me if dynasties or parity are better for the sport.
A league's playoff structure does indicate it's strength, nor do the records of playoff teams. Or any W-L records for that matter. Understanding that their is a winner and a loser in every game, the leagues W-L percentage is going to be the same no matter how good the teams are.
critical thinking time. Did more teams win more games at the top because those teams were better, or because their were 4-6 expansion level rosters and because the tops teams played each other half as many times per season?
St. Louis had Cliff Hagan, Lenny Wilkens, Richie Guerin and Zelmo Beaty, plus Joe Caldwell, another player whose numbers soared after expansion. And speaking of Silas, another guy who mysteriously got way better after expansion.
No sure what listing names does to prove your point, it shows me that you're not understanding mine though.
There were more HOFers starting for teams in 1966 then in 1973 despite their being twice as many teams. Explain that?
And again, most of all your missing the main point. I can find you four-eight rosters that have no chance to compete in 1973, in the 60's there would maybe be one bad team a year.
Explain also why the NBA record for consecutive wins was broken in '70, '71 and again in '72?
Mostly just explain how having players spread out between two leagues makes one league better?
This is not an attack on the 70's but all you're doing is making ignorant people who think it was a weak era across the board believe that false perception.
If you can't admit the NBA was less competitive during the expansion and ABA years, than you are just being stubborn and pigheaded. There is simply no way you can add that many teams and not lose something in the quality on the floor. It's just the reality of the situation, not my opinion.
Im on the fence on this one. I do agree that having top 6 teams makes a stronger league than say 15-20-30 teams. However in 66 the league was missing out on so many good-great players. Which explains the opportunity for the ABA. The Scouting ,the doors opening up for more black players, and the interest in the game helped make the 70's strong.As far as the ABA hurting the NBA I dont think as much as you or many people want to make it. Lets see
Take
mello,Amare,Danny Granger,Chris Paul,Joe Johnson,Kevin Love and a 100 role players off NBA rosters to form another league. Does the NBA really weakens that much. There is still Kobe,Bron,Wade,The Celtics,Rose ect..... WIthin 2 years people would have forgotten all about those player that left.
G.O.A.T
01-08-2011, 05:16 AM
Im on the fence on this one. I do agree that having top 6 teams makes a stronger league than say 15-20-30 teams. However in 66 the league was missing out on so many good-great players. Which explains the opportunity for the ABA. The Scouting ,the doors opening up for more black players, and the interest in the game helped make the 70's strong.
I totally agree, but the reaction of the NBA to the ABA (expanding so fast) hurt the product. If the league had gradually expanded, and the two leagues had merged in 1969 as planned, the NBA would have just kept getting stronger I believe, even as teams were added. But they jumped to 28 teams in five years, that's like if after the 1980's they expanded to 60 teams, instead of just 30.
There is no doubt the overall talent pool got bigger in the 1970's, just not as quickly as the number of spots to fill did.
It may have been necessary to expand that fast and open that many spots to ensure enough deserving people would get their shot. Even in mid-late sixties with the league about half black, and most of the starters being black, there was still a desire for "white friendly" stars and the last few spots on the bench almost always went to white guys over black guys if the talent level was even close.
As far as the ABA hurting the NBA I dont think as much as you or many people want to make it. Lets see
Take
mello,Amare,Danny Granger,Chris Paul,Joe Johnson,Kevin Love and a 100 role players off NBA rosters to form another league. Does the NBA really weakens that much. There is still Kobe,Bron,Wade,The Celtics,Rose ect..... WIthin 2 years people would have forgotten all about those player that left.
It hurts the depth the most. That made it tough to repeat. Early in the 70's whichever team amongst the Lakers, Bucks and Knicks had the fewest injuries took home the title. That only sort of hurt the NBA, but the real blow was dealt after the 60's stars (West, Wilt, Oscar) retired.
In addition to the secondary stars and role players you mentioned a few Superstars jumped to or picked the ABA. Having Doc in the ABA would be like if LeBron joined a rival league in 2003. Rick Barry jumping is tantamount to Dwyane Wade moving out after his title in '06; the NBA without those two stars over the last five years would not be same.
Overall the ABA made the NBA better, and even in spite of the competition, 1970's NBA is a great era when you take the time learn about it, and/or lived through it. But at the time the ABA took away some resources that could have made the NBA even better and put the pressure on them to expand faster than they should have.
man , you're comparing players
i'm listing guys i know can play .... not talking about
hof all stars none of that . . . cats coming to the
league make the L better . . . more teams open
more spots for players . . that's more revenue
players make more money , game blows up
owners get rich , league doesn't fold
do you think the league is better this year with
blake griffin
he ain't got to win , make hof , all star game
none of that
he makes the league better
period
.
and what you know about brian taylor , the
nets pg with doc when they won the title
could ball
mack calvin
dude brother is da homie
nah but for real , mack could play
larry jones
scoring machine , lit up the aba for years
ok , , , , , , , , , he from my hometown
jumper was wet tho
jim chones
karate chopped ****** for years
funniest dude ever
.
that confused me
i just know that a team that can win 50 of 80 games
on any level , is a more competitive team than a
team that can't win half that , , , , and having
4 teams with 50 wins is better than having 2
.
there were more good players and teams in
the league in 73 than there were in 66
doesn't mean knicks > celtics
Niquesports
01-08-2011, 07:21 AM
I totally agree, but the reaction of the NBA to the ABA (expanding so fast) hurt the product. If the league had gradually expanded, and the two leagues had merged in 1969 as planned, the NBA would have just kept getting stronger I believe, even as teams were added. But they jumped to 28 teams in five years, that's like if after the 1980's they expanded to 60 teams, instead of just 30.
There is no doubt the overall talent pool got bigger in the 1970's, just not as quickly as the number of spots to fill did.
It may have been necessary to expand that fast and open that many spots to ensure enough deserving people would get their shot. Even in mid-late sixties with the league about half black, and most of the starters being black, there was still a desire for "white friendly" stars and the last few spots on the bench almost always went to white guys over black guys if the talent level was even close.
It hurts the depth the most. That made it tough to repeat. Early in the 70's whichever team amongst the Lakers, Bucks and Knicks had the fewest injuries took home the title. That only sort of hurt the NBA, but the real blow was dealt after the 60's stars (West, Wilt, Oscar) retired.
In addition to the secondary stars and role players you mentioned a few Superstars jumped to or picked the ABA. Having Doc in the ABA would be like if LeBron joined a rival league in 2003. Rick Barry jumping is tantamount to Dwyane Wade moving out after his title in '06; the NBA without those two stars over the last five years would not be same.
Overall the ABA made the NBA better, and even in spite of the competition, 1970's NBA is a great era when you take the time learn about it, and/or lived through it. But at the time the ABA took away some resources that could have made the NBA even better and put the pressure on them to expand faster than they should have.
I dont think the Lebron Dr. J comparison is fair. Few people even knew who Dr. J was coming out of college.I think David Thompson would be a better everyone knew DT. Same with Barry and Wade ,Wade was coming off a championship Barry wasn't again a better comparison would be kevin Durrant.
That being said I think anyone that doesn't feel the ABA weakend the NBA isn't being realistic. Were talking about big time college players Artis Gilmore,Dan Issell,David Thompson,then you have Dr.J,Moses,Marvin Barnes,George McGinnis,Billy Knight ect...... These are players that would have started in the NBA.That NEts team would have been a tough match for the Knicks, same with Kentucky would have been a good game with the lakers.So on that point I agree the league was watered down from about 70-76. But overall the teams were better that in 66. You had over half the best players on the same teams.I guess Im flip flooping on this subject. Oh and aau Brain Taylor was tough.How about James Silias of the Spurs.
G.O.A.T
01-08-2011, 12:46 PM
Some Potential 1973-74 rosters without the ABA's existence
Milwaukee
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Curtis Perry
Julius Erving
Bob Dandridge
Oscar Robertson
Lucious Allen
Jon McGlocklin
Swen Nater
Golden State Warriors
Nate Thurmond
Darnell Hillman
Rick Barry
Jeff Mullins
Cazzie Russell
Willie Wise
Jim Barnett
Butch Beard
George Johnson
Chicago Bulls
Artis Gilmore
Bob Love
Chet Walker
Jerry Sloan
Norm Van Lier
Maurice Lucas
Ralph Simpson
Clifford Ray
Bob Weiss
Los Angeles Lakers (If Wilt returned)
Wilt Chamberlain
Happy Hairston
Connie Hawkins
Jerry West
Gail Goodrich
Roger Brown
Jim Chones
Jim Price
Elmore Smith
Mack Calvin
New York Knicks
Willis Reed
Dave Debusschere
Bill Bradley
Earl Monroe
Walt Frazier
Phil Jackson
Jerry Lucas
Warren Jabali
Dean Meminger
Boston Celtics
Dave Cowens
Paul Silas
John Havlicek
Charlie Scott
JoJo White
Don Nelson
Don Chaney
Paul Westphal
Niquesports
01-08-2011, 01:02 PM
Some Potential 1973-74 rosters without the ABA's existence
Milwaukee
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Curtis Perry
Julius Erving
Bob Dandridge
Oscar Robertson
Lucious Allen
Jon McGlocklin
Swen Nater
Golden State Warriors
Nate Thurmond
Darnell Hillman
Rick Barry
Jeff Mullins
Cazzie Russell
Willie Wise
Jim Barnett
Butch Beard
George Johnson
Chicago Bulls
Artis Gilmore
Bob Love
Chet Walker
Jerry Sloan
Norm Van Lier
Maurice Lucas
Ralph Simpson
Clifford Ray
Bob Weiss
Los Angeles Lakers (If Wilt returned)
Wilt Chamberlain
Happy Hairston
Connie Hawkins
Jerry West
Gail Goodrich
Roger Brown
Jim Chones
Jim Price
Elmore Smith
Mack Calvin
New York Knicks
Willis Reed
Dave Debusschere
Bill Bradley
Earl Monroe
Walt Frazier
Phil Jackson
Jerry Lucas
Warren Jabali
Dean Meminger
Boston Celtics
Dave Cowens
Paul Silas
John Havlicek
Charlie Scott
JoJo White
Don Nelson
Don Chaney
Paul Westphal
YOu didnt really make your point. The Celtic team is the same team that won the title in 76.
The Warriors I dont think Hillman starts over Silky
Now the Bucks and Bulls are true improvements. But you only show 2 teams that have improved.
DOn't see any real impact improvement with the Knicks or Lakers.
G.O.A.T
01-08-2011, 01:17 PM
YOu didnt really make your point. The Celtic team is the same team that won the title in 76.
The Warriors I dont think Hillman starts over Silky
Now the Bucks and Bulls are true improvements. But you only show 2 teams that have improved.
DOn't see any real impact improvement with the Knicks or Lakers.
Wilkes wasn't drafted until '74,. remember he was a rookie on the title team. Golden State gets a true PF in Hillman and also adds Willie Wise.
The Lakers add Chones, Calvin and Roger Brown...that kind of depth would have been huge in keep West and Wilt healthy and fresh.
The Knicks only add Jabali, the high scorer from Denver.
Boston adds Scott to a team that still has a prime Havlicek. They won the title in '74 anyway. The '76 team didn't have Chaney or Westphal.
The 76ers would add George McGinnis, Caldwell Jones and Marvin Barnes
The Kings get Mel Daniels and Louie Dampier
The Pistons get Dan Issel
The Sonics add Brian Taylor
The Suns get Ron Boone
The Hawks never lose Zelmo Beaty
It's subtle, but every team gets a little better. (And some like Milwaukee and Chicago a lot better) And that's also assuming that the league doesn't slow down expansion (which they likely would have) without the ABA. If that happens take away two rosters and add those players to the pool.
Niquesports
01-08-2011, 01:43 PM
Wilkes wasn't drafted until '74,. remember he was a rookie on the title team. Golden State gets a true PF in Hillman and also adds Willie Wise.
The Lakers add Chones, Calvin and Roger Brown...that kind of depth would have been huge in keep West and Wilt healthy and fresh.
The Knicks only add Jabali, the high scorer from Denver.
Boston adds Scott to a team that still has a prime Havlicek. They won the title in '74 anyway. The '76 team didn't have Chaney or Westphal.
The 76ers would add George McGinnis, Caldwell Jones and Marvin Barnes
The Kings get Mel Daniels and Louie Dampier
The Pistons get Dan Issel
The Sonics add Brian Taylor
The Suns get Ron Boone
The Hawks never lose Zelmo Beaty
It's subtle, but every team gets a little better. (And some like Milwaukee and Chicago a lot better) And that's also assuming that the league doesn't slow down expansion (which they likely would have) without the ABA. If that happens take away two rosters and add those players to the pool.
What year are you basing this on ?
It would have a lot of effect on The Bucks would oscar still be effective in 73-75
A Pistons team of Lanier and issell with Bing and Jimmy Walker thats a nice team.
Don't think louie would do much for the Kings they had Tiny.But mel and Lacy might have been nice.
But your right the small improvements makes each team better.
But I dont think the expansion hurt the game as much as todays expansion where you have about 6 teams that have no chance of making the playoffs let alone win a championship.Who had David Thompsons rights?
G.O.A.T
01-08-2011, 02:37 PM
What year are you basing this on ?
It would have a lot of effect on The Bucks would oscar still be effective in 73-75
A Pistons team of Lanier and issell with Bing and Jimmy Walker thats a nice team.
Don't think louie would do much for the Kings they had Tiny.But mel and Lacy might have been nice.
But your right the small improvements makes each team better.
But I dont think the expansion hurt the game as much as todays expansion where you have about 6 teams that have no chance of making the playoffs let alone win a championship.Who had David Thompsons rights?
I said 73-74 rosters. I figure that was about the height of the ABA's top tine players compared to the NBA's.
Thompson came out in '75 and the Hawks took him first overall, but he of course chose Denver and the ABA.
The Hawks with John Drew, Lou Hudson and David Thompson could have put up some serious points.
Niquesports
01-08-2011, 03:56 PM
I said 73-74 rosters. I figure that was about the height of the ABA's top tine players compared to the NBA's.
Thompson came out in '75 and the Hawks took him first overall, but he of course chose Denver and the ABA.
The Hawks with John Drew, Lou Hudson and David Thompson could have put up some serious points.
Where would he play or should I saw whose spot would he had taken, Lou or Drew ?
It's a given that the added players helped the league but by how much. In the finals you had Mo Lucas with Portland and we had the discussion about how much he helped the Blazers. Then the Sixers had Doc and Mcginnis and role player Steve Mix. But the Nets only won 22 gm,Spurs 44,Denver won 50, and the Pacers won 36 so the players and the teams were big improvements to the league. In the Dispersal Draft only Gilmore made a signficant impact other player made minor to little impact. So I think its safe to say even though the leaguehad stars like Kareem,Mac,Cowens and Hondo ect... it wasn't at full strength.Add to the fact that several players choose the ABA over the NBA for the first time maybe from about 74-76 I would say might be the weakest point other than the 50's.The 2 major steals were David Thompson a # 1 draft pick and Rick Barry a league leading scorer.
I dont think the Lebron Dr. J comparison is fair. Few people even knew who Dr. J was coming out of college.I think David Thompson would be a better everyone knew DT. Same with Barry and Wade ,Wade was coming off a championship Barry wasn't again a better comparison would be kevin Durrant.
That being said I think anyone that doesn't feel the ABA weakend the NBA isn't being realistic. Were talking about big time college players Artis Gilmore,Dan Issell,David Thompson,then you have Dr.J,Moses,Marvin Barnes,George McGinnis,Billy Knight ect...... These are players that would have started in the NBA.That NEts team would have been a tough match for the Knicks, same with Kentucky would have been a good game with the lakers.So on that point I agree the league was watered down from about 70-76. But overall the teams were better that in 66. You had over half the best players on the same teams.I guess Im flip flooping on this subject. Oh and aau Brain Taylor was tough.How about James Silias of the Spurs.
i'm glad you asked , i remember him being lightning fast and quick
but we didn't get to see him at his best when spurs joined the
league , he'd had a bad injury . . . so i did a lil diggin
"before duncan made bankshots and d rob gazelled up the court
and before gervin fingerolled his way to 4 scoring titles the
spurs were led by the amazingly skilled 6'2 dynamo
james silas"
say he played like "the good humor man" -- would feed gervin
kenon and paultz for 3Q then take over in the 4th earning
the nicknames "captain late" and "the late mr. silas"
"won a bunch of games in the final moments . . . it's not unusual
for silas to score 20 points in the 4th" ... spurs coach bob bass
we went to him late because he was a great FT shooter and
he could back his man down like oscar , pass out of double
team or turn and shoot an unblockable 12-14 ft fallaway
and get fouled"
.
bobby 'slick' leonard
3x champ pacers coach
"james silas really should be in the hall of fame . . . i liken him a
lot to sam jones in boston . . . we double teamed him from the
3 pt line to the top of the key even with gervin on his team
this guy was a monster , a great , great basketball player
the most underrated guard in aba history"
.
led spurs against pacers in 74 , took them to 7 games . . . faced
them again in 75 avg 18.8 and 10.0 (ps #1) but lost in 6
1976
#6 ppg 23.8
#4 fg .519%
#4 ft .879%
#5 asst 5.4
#5 in min pl
#9 steal 1.8
named 1stT over gervin and only an otherworldly season from
julius 'dr.j' erving kept him from winning mvp honors
great season came to a crushing end when in game 1 vs doc and
the nets he landed on brian taylor's foot and broke his
ankle after taking a jump shot
the next year is when the league's merged and he still hadn't fully
recovered . . . played in 22 games in 77 and 37 in 78
1979 spurs finished 48-34 - 1st place - lost ECF to bullets in 7
avg 16 in the reg season and 19 during the playoffs
after b-2-b 17ppg seasons in 80 and 81
he retired in 82
Niquesports
01-08-2011, 06:08 PM
i'm glad you asked , i remember him being lightning fast and quick
but we didn't get to see him at his best when spurs joined the
league , he'd had a bad injury . . . so i did a lil diggin
"before duncan made bankshots and d rob gazelled up the court
and before gervin fingerolled his way to 4 scoring titles the
spurs were led by the amazingly skilled 6'2 dynamo
james silas"
say he played like "the good humor man" -- would feed gervin
kenon and paultz for 3Q then take over in the 4th earning
the nicknames "captain late" and "the late mr. silas"
"won a bunch of games in the final moments . . . it's not unusual
for silas to score 20 points in the 4th" ... spurs coach bob bass
we went to him late because he was a great FT shooter and
he could back his man down like oscar , pass out of double
team or turn and shoot an unblockable 12-14 ft fallaway
and get fouled"
.
bobby 'slick' leonard
3x champ pacers coach
"james silas really should be in the hall of fame . . . i liken him a
lot to sam jones in boston . . . we double teamed him from the
3 pt line to the top of the key even with gervin on his team
this guy was a monster , a great , great basketball player
the most underrated guard in aba history"
.
led spurs against pacers in 74 , took them to 7 games . . . faced
them again in 75 avg 18.8 and 10.0 (ps #1) but lost in 6
1976
#6 ppg 23.8
#4 fg .519%
#4 ft .879%
#5 asst 5.4
#5 in min pl
#9 steal 1.8
named 1stT over gervin and only an otherworldly season from
julius 'dr.j' erving kept him from winning mvp honors
great season came to a crushing end when in game 1 vs doc and
the nets he landed on brian taylor's foot and broke his
ankle after taking a jump shot
the next year is when the league's merged and he still hadn't fully
recovered . . . played in 22 games in 77 and 37 in 78
1979 spurs finished 48-34 - 1st place - lost ECF to bullets in 7
avg 16 in the reg season and 19 during the playoffs
after b-2-b 17ppg seasons in 80 and 81
he retired in 82
I remember hearing the old heads talk about James Reminds me of Archie Clark. Do you know anything about Archie ? I always laugh will the young guys are so quick to say hey Chris Paul is gonna be a top 5 PG all time. I love Paul but he has a lot of guys he has to pass to get there.Im like you I loved Gus 'The Wizzard" Williams. The avg. person under 40 couldn't tell you anything about him.Kelvin Martin nice player with a wet shot have they ever seen Phil Chenier .They talk about Dennis Rodman There was a guy name Truck Robinson he would get you 15 reb and 20pt.Grant Hill The 70's had Walter Davis.Til this day Kevin Porter is as good a PG that I have ever seen. He just didnt have the off court focus.Now all the young guys gonna try and say Im saying KP is as Good a player as Magic . I didn't say that i said PG not player. I also like Mark Price Mark Jackson. I played PG so I love true PG.
I remember hearing the old heads talk about James Reminds me of Archie Clark. Do you know anything about Archie ? I always laugh will the young guys are so quick to say hey Chris Paul is gonna be a top 5 PG all time. I love Paul but he has a lot of guys he has to pass to get there.Im like you I loved Gus 'The Wizzard" Williams. The avg. person under 40 couldn't tell you anything about him.Kelvin Martin nice player with a wet shot have they ever seen Phil Chenier .They talk about Dennis Rodman There was a guy name Truck Robinson he would get you 15 reb and 20pt.Grant Hill The 70's had Walter Davis.Til this day Kevin Porter is as good a PG that I have ever seen. He just didnt have the off court focus.Now all the young guys gonna try and say Im saying KP is as Good a player as Magic . I didn't say that i said PG not player. I also like Mark Price Mark Jackson. I played PG so I love true PG.
whew , man , archie clark , , you tryin to make me
get loose upstairs . . . things i havn't thot about
since forever . . . let me line these years up
i remember clark with the lakers and 6ers vaguely so it
was interesting to learn that he was traded in 68 to
philly for wilt following his 2nd year in the league
69-70
he was going up against 2nd year monroe and frazier , 9th year oscar
and jerry west the league leading scorer at 31.2 in his 10th year
watching these games is what made me want to play . . . .
archie was a bad man , , always had my respect as a scorer
traded to BAL in 72 with pearl , mad dog , unseld , chenier
and stan love , my alma mater morningside high and the
father of twolves kevin . . i thot they'd do something
they did
bullets turned around and traded pearl to ny the next month
in one of theee most rediculous trades in league history
archie went on to lead that team in scoring 25.1 that year
he was pretty much done after that
Niquesports
01-09-2011, 12:17 AM
whew , man , archie clark , , you tryin to make me
get loose upstairs . . . things i havn't thot about
since forever . . . let me line these years up
i remember clark with the lakers and 6ers vaguely so it
was interesting to learn that he was traded in 68 to
philly for wilt following his 2nd year in the league
69-70
he was going up against 2nd year monroe and frazier , 9th year oscar
and jerry west the league leading scorer at 31.2 in his 10th year
watching these games is what made me want to play . . . .
archie was a bad man , , always had my respect as a scorer
traded to BAL in 72 with pearl , mad dog , unseld , chenier
and stan love , my alma mater morningside high and the
father of twolves kevin . . i thot they'd do something
they did
bullets turned around and traded pearl to ny the next month
in one of theee most rediculous trades in league history
archie went on to lead that team in scoring 25.1 that year
he was pretty much done after that
When Archie came to the then Baltimore Bullets was when I first started loving the game.Archie and them fly orange uniforms. Til this day I dont understand that trade.I have read and heard it was over money on Pearl's contract. However you don't trade him to your biggest rival and for Mike Freakin Reridon.Abe Pollin never lived that down as being a cheap owner in DC.many blame hayes for the lost to the Warriors in 75 I blame Mike he was no help on defending the perimeter.This is fun How bout my home boy Dave Bing. DC product he was as smooth as Grant Hill could scorer and dish. You said you like HIgh School basketball. Name the only High School that has 2 players in the Top 50 list.
When Archie came to the then Baltimore Bullets was when I first started loving the game.Archie and them fly orange uniforms. Til this day I dont understand that trade.I have read and heard it was over money on Pearl's contract. However you don't trade him to your biggest rival and for Mike Freakin Reridon.Abe Pollin never lived that down as being a cheap owner in DC.many blame hayes for the lost to the Warriors in 75 I blame Mike he was no help on defending the perimeter.This is fun How bout my home boy Dave Bing. DC product he was as smooth as Grant Hill could scorer and dish. You said you like HIgh School basketball. Name the only High School that has 2 players in the Top 50 list.
man , , you trying to hurt me . . . trivia this early
the 2 players in question would be dave bing and
elgin baylor both from springarn HS in baltimore
reason i know this is because earl jones is from that school
he graduated the year after me and was drafted by the
lakers in 84 . . . you know the LA media ate that up
did you ever see him play in high school . . . i know
he beat dematha in the city championship game
dude was supposed to be real , one of the
biggest flops in all america history
.
david bing's jumper was bananas . . . smooth as butter
could stop on a dime and pull from anywhere
i just learned that when growing up in northeast d.c. injury
struck both he and his father who was a bricklayer
at a construction site a brick crashed 4 stories and struck
his dad on the head and created a blood clot in his brain
dave swore he'd never live like that, but at the age of 5
he suffered his own calamity while running down the
street with 2 sticks he'd just nailed together
he tripped and the nail plunged into his left eye
an operation saved the eye but he suffered
from blurry vision from then on
6 years into his nba career , with his vision already limited
came perilously close to losing the sight in his right eye
while defending happy hairston , he made a cut and as he slid
by bing his hand flew up and inadvertently jabbed a finger
into david's right pupil . . . . despite the severe pain
bing thought he'd suffered just a scratch and
was in the starting lineup a few nights
later in the season opener
however , he awoke the next morning to find his vision
extremely dimmed . . . rushed to the hospital he was
told that his retina was partially detached and he
underwent surgery the next day and spent 3
three days in total darkness with his eye
bandaged . . . he sat out 3 months
warned by the doctor that returning to play would put
his vision at risk , he returned to the pistons in
december and scored 21p 1st game back
as always , bing found virtue in the injury
"i'm a better free throw shooter now"
i remember watching him play with that patch over
his eye , i just didn't know why
Niquesports
01-09-2011, 07:33 PM
man , , you trying to hurt me . . . trivia this early
the 2 players in question would be dave bing and
elgin baylor both from springarn HS in baltimore
reason i know this is because earl jones is from that school
he graduated the year after me and was drafted by the
lakers in 84 . . . you know the LA media ate that up
did you ever see him play in high school . . . i know
he beat dematha in the city championship game
dude was supposed to be real , one of the
biggest flops in all america history
.
david bing's jumper was bananas . . . smooth as butter
could stop on a dime and pull from anywhere
i just learned that when growing up in northeast d.c. injury
struck both he and his father who was a bricklayer
at a construction site a brick crashed 4 stories and struck
his dad on the head and created a blood clot in his brain
dave swore he'd never live like that, but at the age of 5
he suffered his own calamity while running down the
street with 2 sticks he'd just nailed together
he tripped and the nail plunged into his left eye
an operation saved the eye but he suffered
from blurry vision from then on
6 years into his nba career , with his vision already limited
came perilously close to losing the sight in his right eye
while defending happy hairston , he made a cut and as he slid
by bing his hand flew up and inadvertently jabbed a finger
into david's right pupil . . . . despite the severe pain
bing thought he'd suffered just a scratch and
was in the starting lineup a few nights
later in the season opener
however , he awoke the next morning to find his vision
extremely dimmed . . . rushed to the hospital he was
told that his retina was partially detached and he
underwent surgery the next day and spent 3
three days in total darkness with his eye
bandaged . . . he sat out 3 months
warned by the doctor that returning to play would put
his vision at risk , he returned to the pistons in
december and scored 21p 1st game back
as always , bing found virtue in the injury
"i'm a better free throw shooter now"
i remember watching him play with that patch over
his eye , i just didn't know why
Your right about Spingarn but its in DC 5 min. from RFK the old stadium the Redskins played at. I knew about Bings eye troubles but didnt know the story Thanks. Quick note on Bing, He played in one of the Biggest DC High School games of All TIme. Spingarn vs Carroll lead by no other Big John Thompson. IT was a game the old heads still talk about. Carroll had won like 39 gm in a row, had 4 D 1 players Spingarn had 3 stars although a Soph Bing was really the 3rd best player on his team.I have done a lot of reading about that game. ITs as big as the game kareem and Power Memorial vs DeMatha.It was a Catholic School vs a Inter High game. Carroll won.
Bing was later traded to the Bullets as a young fan I never liked his game. But I look back on it it was more I was a BIG Kevin Porter Fan.To me Bing was playing in KP's spot.But I know you dont know about my man KP:cheers:
Earl was a raw big athletic 7ft HS player where most teams C were 6-6 at best.HE came to DC with big fan fare and he lived up to it. His Spingarn team beat DeMatha in the City title game that started Adrian Branch of U Maryland.He later went to a D2 school and lead them to the D2 championship.I don't think the NBA was ready for a player like Earl and Earl wasn't ready for the NBA.ITs some what sad the DC public schools use to have so much talent so many great teams. THe last great team thatt he inter high really had was again Spingarn with Sherman Douglass of Syracuse/NBA that was about 1985.
Your right about Spingarn but its in DC 5 min. from RFK the old stadium the Redskins played at. I knew about Bings eye troubles but didnt know the story Thanks. Quick note on Bing, He played in one of the Biggest DC High School games of All TIme. Spingarn vs Carroll lead by no other Big John Thompson. IT was a game the old heads still talk about. Carroll had won like 39 gm in a row, had 4 D 1 players Spingarn had 3 stars although a Soph Bing was really the 3rd best player on his team.I have done a lot of reading about that game. ITs as big as the game kareem and Power Memorial vs DeMatha.It was a Catholic School vs a Inter High game. Carroll won.
Bing was later traded to the Bullets as a young fan I never liked his game. But I look back on it it was more I was a BIG Kevin Porter Fan.To me Bing was playing in KP's spot.But I know you dont know about my man KP:cheers:
Earl was a raw big athletic 7ft HS player where most teams C were 6-6 at best.HE came to DC with big fan fare and he lived up to it. His Spingarn team beat DeMatha in the City title game that started Adrian Branch of U Maryland.He later went to a D2 school and lead them to the D2 championship.I don't think the NBA was ready for a player like Earl and Earl wasn't ready for the NBA.ITs some what sad the DC public schools use to have so much talent so many great teams. THe last great team thatt he inter high really had was again Spingarn with Sherman Douglass of Syracuse/NBA that was about 1985.
please
kevin porter was the original wizard
gus played just like him , besides
wasn't bing almost through
and that baltimore dc thing has always confused me
you can be out of dc and into balt in five minutes?
that was branch he took out . . . read about earl that
where he came from the entire city was on his
shoulders and when they lost state title
he crumbled beneath it
moms said he would lock himself in his room and not
come out for nobody , friends , recruiters
wouldn't take calls from majors
basically quit school , had 63 unexcused absences
wanted to send him to his 3 sisters in balt but
he didn't want to go . . . some aau coach
from balt heard about him and went
and pulled the kid out and took
him to springarn . . . . obv.
his transcripts were bad court injunction he had to
sit out first few games but went on to take city
dropped 29 on'em . . . he went to udc right
there where you are
so you from right there , the longstanding mecca of hs ball
super hotbed , storied history in high school basketball
they were doin big things in dc back in the day
dematha and wootten were already legendary
didn't len bias come from around there
wittenburg and lowe , them 2 fools
were in my grad class as well
i'll never forget the 83 draft , drexler lowe and witt were
sitting in the front row and it was the clippers pick
they anounced byron's name and the look on
clyde's face was like WTF is that??!!
never liked clyde after that , , or the 3 of them really
i told byron every time you play clyde , let him know
i kid you not , you can check the annuals , you can
count on one hand the number of games he didn't
drop at least a dub on clyde . . . drex got his oc
and became the better player but not by much
by my semi-biased standards , clyde couldn't
shoot . . byron was lites out from anywhere
anyway , to get back
i knew about matha , carroll , dunbar and the others
so are these schools like 30 seconds apart
how that work
GOAT
where you take off to
let's chop up the 50 and beyond
magnax1
01-09-2011, 11:09 PM
Kareem and Dr. J on one team would be insanity.
G.O.A.T
01-10-2011, 12:00 AM
GOAT
where you take off to
let's chop up the 50 and beyond
Sorry if he was already mentioned, but what about a guy like Randy Smith?
Now there was a dude who could fly. Rarely if ever gets his due, in part because he played in Buffalo and beyond that because he played in the 1970's.
How good could Doug Collins have been?
What about Johnny Neumann?
aau and Nique, you guys remember Billy Ray Bates?
What do you do with guys like Gar Heard, Paul Westphal?
jlauber
01-10-2011, 12:39 AM
Sorry if he was already mentioned, but what about a guy like Randy Smith?
Now there was a dude who could fly. Rarely if ever gets his due, in part because he played in Buffalo and beyond that because he played in the 1970's.
How good could Doug Collins have been?
What about Johnny Neumann?
aau and Nique, you guys remember Billy Ray Bates?
What do you do with guys like Gar Heard, Paul Westphal?
Speaking of Doug Colllins...how good could Raymond Lewis have been?
http://www.raymondlewis.com/
Reportedly scored 60 points in the first half against the NBA's number 1 draft choice Doug Collins. In Sixers NBA camp.
Niquesports
01-10-2011, 12:53 AM
please
kevin porter was the original wizard
gus played just like him , besides
wasn't bing almost through
and that baltimore dc thing has always confused me
you can be out of dc and into balt in five minutes?
that was branch he took out . . . read about earl that
where he came from the entire city was on his
shoulders and when they lost state title
he crumbled beneath it
moms said he would lock himself in his room and not
come out for nobody , friends , recruiters
wouldn't take calls from majors
basically quit school , had 63 unexcused absences
wanted to send him to his 3 sisters in balt but
he didn't want to go . . . some aau coach
from balt heard about him and went
and pulled the kid out and took
him to springarn . . . . obv.
his transcripts were bad court injunction he had to
sit out first few games but went on to take city
dropped 29 on'em . . . he went to udc right
there where you are
so you from right there , the longstanding mecca of hs ball
super hotbed , storied history in high school basketball
they were doin big things in dc back in the day
dematha and wootten were already legendary
didn't len bias come from around there
wittenburg and lowe , them 2 fools
were in my grad class as well
i'll never forget the 83 draft , drexler lowe and witt were
sitting in the front row and it was the clippers pick
they anounced byron's name and the look on
clyde's face was like WTF is that??!!
never liked clyde after that , , or the 3 of them really
i told byron every time you play clyde , let him know
i kid you not , you can check the annuals , you can
count on one hand the number of games he didn't
drop at least a dub on clyde . . . drex got his oc
and became the better player but not by much
by my semi-biased standards , clyde couldn't
shoot . . byron was lites out from anywhere
anyway , to get back
i knew about matha , carroll , dunbar and the others
so are these schools like 30 seconds apart
how that work
There close but not that close Dunbar and carroll are in DC and DeMatha is in MD about 20min. away.Good story on Byron he is so underrated,once Lost a bet that he lead the Lakers in scoring one year.
Niquesports
01-10-2011, 01:09 AM
Sorry if he was already mentioned, but what about a guy like Randy Smith?
Now there was a dude who could fly. Rarely if ever gets his due, in part because he played in Buffalo and beyond that because he played in the 1970's.
How good could Doug Collins have been?
What about Johnny Neumann?
aau and Nique, you guys remember Billy Ray Bates?
What do you do with guys like Gar Heard, Paul Westphal?
I was never big on Doug. Kinda of like a very poor man's Hondo. He could shoot and hustle kinda think Lionell Hollins killed him in the 77 finals
Billy Ray Bates man I remember him his name was better than his game. With a name like that he should have been in your Top 50 Goat.
Gar Heard old school solid mid-range type of guy.Almost every team in the NBA would want him today along with Paul Silias,Wes Unseld Maurice Lucas.
Paul Westphal couldn't get any run with Boston maybe Red's only mistake of letting him go.Man could he play.Manu kinda reminds me of him. I guess you can't have to Hondos on a team so they stayed with the orginal.
How about Fat lever, Supa John Williamson,and Lenoard Truck Robinson a big brusier but he could scorer. A nice role player with the Bulletss get traded and goes on to be a decent scorer and a big time rebounder.WOW a Old Guy Post this is great,Thanks aau, it feels good to talk real basketball with guys that know more than post 1990 Basketball.
jlauber
01-10-2011, 01:11 AM
I was never big on Doug. Kinda of like a very poor man's Hondo. He could shoot and hustle kinda think Lionell Hollins killed him in the 77 finals
Billy Ray Bates man I remember him his name was better than his game. With a name like that he should have been in your Top 50 Goat.
Gar Heard old school solid mid-range type of guy.Almost every team in the NBA would want him today along with Paul Silias,Wes Unseld Maurice Lucas.
Paul Westphal couldn't get any run with Boston maybe Red's only mistake of letting him go.Man could he play.Manu kinda reminds me of him. I guess you can't have to Hondos on a team so they stayed with the orginal.
How about Fat lever, Supa John Williamson,and Lenoard Truck Robinson a big brusier but he could scorer. A nice role player with the Bulletss get traded and goes on to be a decent scorer and a big time rebounder.WOW a Old Guy Post this is great,Thanks aau, it feels good to talk real basketball with guys that know more than post 1990 Basketball.
I wouldn't call Truck "big"...he was only 6-7, but yes, he was a big-time rebounder who actually led the NBA in rebounding one year.
Niquesports
01-10-2011, 01:33 AM
Speaking of Doug Colllins...how good could Raymond Lewis have been?
http://www.raymondlewis.com/
WOW great read J. ITs funny how many cities has players like this. In DC there has been several. Dave Bing talks in his book about Bernard Levi a HS teammate he calls the best basketball player he ever saw. Many from that era call Levi the best player ever out of DC even Elgin ,however the older heads say are you crazy.THe stories of Elgin are legendary. He was Lebron before Lebron no one ever saw a guy that big that athletic before.I guess this is why I stand so supportive of the older era guys these young kids think players like Lebron are a first. Hey guys here is another oned Skip Wise from Baltimore.
Niquesports
01-10-2011, 01:35 AM
I wouldn't call Truck "big"...he was only 6-7, but yes, he was a big-time rebounder who actually led the NBA in rebounding one year.
Your right I meant big in terms of size and strength he was like a Ben Wallace another reason why the Bullets couldn't handle the Warriors in 75. They were just too athletic and we couldn't take advantage of our inside strength
jlauber
01-10-2011, 01:43 AM
WOW great read J. ITs funny how many cities has players like this. In DC there has been several. Dave Bing talks in his book about Bernard Levi a HS teammate he calls the best basketball player he ever saw. Many from that era call Levi the best player ever out of DC even Elgin ,however the older heads say are you crazy.THe stories of Elgin are legendary. He was Lebron before Lebron no one ever saw a guy that big that athletic before.I guess this is why I stand so supportive of the older era guys these young kids think players like Lebron are a first. Hey guys here is another oned Skip Wise from Baltimore.
Great post. While I have no doubt that the average basketball player today is bigger, stonger, and more athletic than those of yesteryear, I just don't think the difference is THAT much.
Reading some of the posts from the "ESPN Generation", I get the feeling that they believe that the players of the 60's were nerdy white guys shooting set-shots at peach baskets.
Guys like Baylor, Russell, Gus Johnson, Connie Hawkins, Oscar, and Wilt were great athletes, and very skilled. If you could transport them right into today's NBA they would still be very good players. BUT, give them all of the benefits of modern technology and the 50 years of experience that today's players have had since those greats played...and they would be among the best in the league.
G.O.A.T
01-10-2011, 01:58 AM
Billy Ray Bates (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xeGS6C-H1M&feature=player_embedded)
If you don't know who he is, know that his two nicknames were "Dunk" and "Black Superman"
Enjoy!
Niquesports
01-10-2011, 02:11 AM
Great post. While I have no doubt that the average basketball player today is bigger, stonger, and more athletic than those of yesteryear, I just don't think the difference is THAT much.
Reading some of the posts from the "ESPN Generation", I get the feeling that they believe that the players of the 60's were nerdy white guys shooting set-shots at peach baskets.
Guys like Baylor, Russell, Gus Johnson, Connie Hawkins, Oscar, and Wilt were great athletes, and very skilled. If you could transport them right into today's NBA they would still be very good players. BUT, give them all of the benefits of modern technology and the 50 years of experience that today's players have had since those greats played...and they would be among the best in the league.
IT only makes sense, Lebron is a player in the line of Elgin,Connie Hawk,Dr J. Everyone talks about how Kobe is a replica of Jordan well Jordan was a replica of David Thompson Jordan even says this.The more I read post on ISh the more I gain respect for players like Cousy and Milkin and Pettie players I use to frown on.NOw Im not some old fart I love the young guys Derrick Rose makes mego wow but has he lead the league in scoring and assist the same season like Tiny did ? What I love about this thread is that we are posting about the second tier players and how good they were. This helps support that the stars of the 60's and 70's were playing against slow fat short white guys.
C Dave Cowens
PF Rick Barry
SFBilly Cunningham
PG GAILGoodrich
PG/SG Hondo
I'd take this 70's team of slow white guys against any team of todays players.
G.O.A.T
01-10-2011, 02:17 AM
The more I read post on ISh the more I gain respect for players like Cousy and Milkin and Pettie players I use to frown on.NOw Im not some old fart I love the young guys Derrick Rose makes mego wow but has he lead the league in scoring and assist the same season like Tiny did ? What I love about this thread is that we are posting about the second tier players and how good they were. This helps support that the stars of the 60's and 70's were playing against slow fat short white guys.
C Dave Cowens
PF Rick Barry
SFBilly Cunningham
PG GAILGoodrich
PG/SG Hondo
I'd take this 70's team of slow white guys against any team of todays players.
As a slow white guy, I love this post.
Also, so important to note that all players are just a natural evolution of those who came before them.
There was a guy named Cowboy Edwards who played for the Osh Kosh All-Stars in the 1930's and 1940's, he was a 6'4" 240 pound center who could jump over folding chairs on one leg and out-sprint his 165 pound teammates. He was the most dominate player of his era in the National Basketball League and when I was reading about him I couldn;t help but think of Charles Barkley and Gar Heard and Maurice Stokes. Guys who were absolute powerhouses and athletic freaks whose lack of height could not interfer with their determination to dominate.
There's a guy who never had a chance to play in the NBA that may have been one of it's finest players, but instead just became a footnote to the history that allowed today's stars to thrive like they do.
jlauber
01-10-2011, 02:17 AM
IT only makes sense, Lebron is a player in the line of Elgin,Connie Hawk,Dr J. Everyone talks about how Kobe is a replica of Jordan well Jordan was a replica of David Thompson Jordan even says this.The more I read post on ISh the more I gain respect for players like Cousy and Milkin and Pettie players I use to frown on.NOw Im not some old fart I love the young guys Derrick Rose makes mego wow but has he lead the league in scoring and assist the same season like Tiny did ? What I love about this thread is that we are posting about the second tier players and how good they were. This helps support that the stars of the 60's and 70's were playing against slow fat short white guys.
C Dave Cowens
PF Rick Barry
SFBilly Cunningham
PG GAILGoodrich
PG/SG Hondo
I'd take this 70's team of slow white guys against any team of todays players.
Another exceptional post. And while Kareem had a great Finals in '74, the little red-headed white kid, 6-9 Dave Cowens, outplayed him in game seven.
Speaking of the athletes of the 50's, how about another white guy who was 6-4...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Pollard
Pollard was considered one of the best forwards in the 1940s and 1950s, and was known for his leaping ability[1] (Pollard would occasionally dunk from the free throw line during warmups[2]) earning him the nickname "The Kangaroo Kid".
G.O.A.T
01-10-2011, 02:20 AM
Another exceptional post. And while Kareem had a great Finals in '74, the little red-headed white kid, 6-9 Dave Cowens, outplayed him in game seven.
Speaking of the athletes of the 50's, how about another white guy who was 6-4...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Pollard
Pollard was the original Kangaroo Kid from his days at Stanford.
I seen a quote from Bob Wanzer about Pollard saying that he could reach higher on the backboard than even Mikan, pretty amazing considering the era. Imagine if he was 20 or even 10 years younger, he might have been one of the originators of hang time along with Baylor, Gus Johnson, Dr. J and the like.
Niquesports
01-10-2011, 02:20 AM
Billy Ray Bates (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xeGS6C-H1M&feature=player_embedded)
If you don't know who he is, know that his two nicknames were "Dunk" and "Black Superman"
Enjoy!
IF he played today he would be on ESPN 24/7 the kids would be saying he's gonna be a top 50 for sure.
jlauber
01-10-2011, 02:25 AM
As a slow white guy, I love this post.
Also, so important to note that all players are just a natural evolution of those who came before them.
There was a guy named Cowboy Edwards who played for the Osh Kosh All-Stars in the 1930's and 1940's, he was a 6'4" 240 pound center who could jump over folding chairs on one leg and out-sprint his 165 pound teammates. He was the most dominate player of his era in the National Basketball League and when I was reading about him I couldn;t help but think of Charles Barkley and Gar Heard and Maurice Stokes. Guys who were absolute powerhouses and athletic freaks whose lack of height could not interfer with their determination to dominate.
There's a guy who never had a chance to play in the NBA that may have been one of it's finest players, but instead just became a footnote to the history that allowed today's stars to thrive like they do.
Excellent post. And I believe it was you who made the comment that has stuck with me ever since...
We wouldn't have the automobile without the invention of the wheel...
or something to that effect.
The players of the 40's, 50's, and 60's were the pioneers to the game we have today.
Niquesports
01-10-2011, 02:42 AM
Excellent post. And I believe it was you who made the comment that has stuck with me ever since...
We wouldn't have the automobile without the invention of the wheel...
or something to that effect.
The players of the 40's, 50's, and 60's were the pioneers to the game we have today.
Hey guys how many dummy troll stupid names would I get if I was to post Marques haynes was a better player than Chris Paul ? Haynes and the Trotters beat Milkan's lakers 2 times . Many say Haynes was as good if not better than Cousy. I just love the game and respect the nw future legends as well as the guys that were TrailBlazers . I'm not talking about Walton G.O.A.T. :oldlol: :oldlol:
G.O.A.T
01-10-2011, 02:43 AM
Excellent post. And I believe it was you who made the comment that has stuck with me ever since...
We wouldn't have the automobile without the invention of the wheel...
or something to that effect.
The players of the 40's, 50's, and 60's were the pioneers to the game we have today.
This is going to be a super blowhard post, so if you're not in this nostalgic lovefest with us, just ignore me.
I'm glad you appreciate that perspective, I have always used it and similar analogies to display the importance of historical context.
I would take the appreciation of basketball stars back even further than the 40's though.
Obviously in the beginning their was Naismith and the YMCA's, but the game took a direction of it's own because of teams like the Buffalo Germans, Loendi Big Five, Original Celtics and Harlem Rens.
Early stars like Cumberland Posey who played pro baseball and basketball and even played college basketball with whites, while posing as a white student at what is now Dusquene University.
Guys like Joe Lapchick of the original Celtics, who would later coach the New York Knicks and Charles "Tarzan" Cooper of the Harlem Rens. A 6'6" White guy and 6'6' Black guy who dressed in shorts and sleeveless shirts would embrace before every jump ball between their racial segregated teams.
These guys, more so than in any other American Team sport, paved the way and built from scratch a game that so many like us love. Basketball is a baby, barely 100 years old. It is original, created to be what it it, not bourne out of variations of other games. It is a beautiful game of skill, discipline, imagination, selflessness and creativity.
My greatest lament as a fan of the game is watching players, teams, and eras of basketball forgotten, overlooked or eroded by the incredible shortsightedness of so many of today's fans. I've been working on my book for over a year now, my goat list for almost 20 years and have been a fan of basketball presumably since my dad placed a ball in two year old me's crib because I liked watching him play so much. I've been as guilty of being as shortsighted as those I criticize, but I never had the amazing resource that is the internet at my disposal. To me there is no excuse not to appreciate the players of 30, 40 50 and even 100 years ago, their story is finally being told and it's remarkable similar to the one unfolding in today's NBA.
inclinerator
01-10-2011, 02:47 AM
wat the shit is this shit
Niquesports
01-10-2011, 03:01 AM
This is going to be a super blowhard post, so if you're not in this nostalgic lovefest with us, just ignore me.
I'm glad you appreciate that perspective, I have always used it and similar analogies to display the importance of historical context.
I would take the appreciation of basketball stars back even further than the 40's though.
Obviously in the beginning their was Naismith and the YMCA's, but the game took a direction of it's own because of teams like the Buffalo Germans, Loendi Big Five, Original Celtics and Harlem Rens.
Early stars like Cumberland Posey who played pro baseball and basketball and even played college basketball with whites, while posing as a white student at what is now Dusquene University.
Guys like Joe Lapchick of the original Celtics, who would later coach the New York Knicks and Charles "Tarzan" Cooper of the Harlem Rens. A 6'6" White guy and 6'6' Black guy who dressed in shorts and sleeveless shirts would embrace before every jump ball between their racial segregated teams.
These guys, more so than in any other American Team sport, paved the way and built from scratch a game that so many like us love. Basketball is a baby, barely 100 years old. It is original, created to be what it it, not bourne out of variations of other games. It is a beautiful game of skill, discipline, imagination, selflessness and creativity.
My greatest lament as a fan of the game is watching players, teams, and eras of basketball forgotten, overlooked or eroded by the incredible shortsightedness of so many of today's fans. I've been working on my book for over a year now, my goat list for almost 20 years and have been a fan of basketball presumably since my dad placed a ball in two year old me's crib because I liked watching him play so much. I've been as guilty of being as shortsighted as those I criticize, but I never had the amazing resource that is the internet at my disposal. To me there is no excuse not to appreciate the players of 30, 40 50 and even 100 years ago, their story is finally being told and it's remarkable similar to the one unfolding in today's NBA.
My father maybe not a legend but a well respect player in his day I grew up with all the old DC players hearing stories going to games HS/College/PRO/Street Ball.I was also fortunateI played every where growing up. In the hood to the suburbs I learned that there were so many different styles of playing basketball. But the bottom line is 2pts . is 2pts wheather its in Frech Lick or the streets of DC.So I gained a respect for players that can play.So often I hear people that dont respect the game say Iverson is nothing but a chucker. I know guys that have played agaisnt him you never hear about his basketball IQ but how else could a guy 6'1 160lb do the things he did without a knowledge of the game. I remember as a kid Kevin Gervey of Kentucky /Bullets came and put on a clinic I never liked him even though I was a big Bullets fan. He shot and made about 10 3pt range shots in a row.Too often people base there rankings and respect of players on the style or personality instead of that players skill on the court.There was nothing flashy, polished and he asn't the most eloquent person to ever play in the NBA but Moses Malone was as good as any Center to ever play the game.But imo due to media bias many dont even have him as a top 5 C.Some would even rank him below Top 10.
jlauber
01-10-2011, 09:25 AM
This is going to be a super blowhard post, so if you're not in this nostalgic lovefest with us, just ignore me.
I'm glad you appreciate that perspective, I have always used it and similar analogies to display the importance of historical context.
I would take the appreciation of basketball stars back even further than the 40's though.
Obviously in the beginning their was Naismith and the YMCA's, but the game took a direction of it's own because of teams like the Buffalo Germans, Loendi Big Five, Original Celtics and Harlem Rens.
Early stars like Cumberland Posey who played pro baseball and basketball and even played college basketball with whites, while posing as a white student at what is now Dusquene University.
Guys like Joe Lapchick of the original Celtics, who would later coach the New York Knicks and Charles "Tarzan" Cooper of the Harlem Rens. A 6'6" White guy and 6'6' Black guy who dressed in shorts and sleeveless shirts would embrace before every jump ball between their racial segregated teams.
These guys, more so than in any other American Team sport, paved the way and built from scratch a game that so many like us love. Basketball is a baby, barely 100 years old. It is original, created to be what it it, not bourne out of variations of other games. It is a beautiful game of skill, discipline, imagination, selflessness and creativity.
My greatest lament as a fan of the game is watching players, teams, and eras of basketball forgotten, overlooked or eroded by the incredible shortsightedness of so many of today's fans. I've been working on my book for over a year now, my goat list for almost 20 years and have been a fan of basketball presumably since my dad placed a ball in two year old me's crib because I liked watching him play so much. I've been as guilty of being as shortsighted as those I criticize, but I never had the amazing resource that is the internet at my disposal. To me there is no excuse not to appreciate the players of 30, 40 50 and even 100 years ago, their story is finally being told and it's remarkable similar to the one unfolding in today's NBA.
Great post!
Where would the game be without the jumpshot? Or the shot clock? Or pioneers like Mikan, Cousy, and then Russell's defense..etc?
And, as I have stated many times, the dunk was not invented by MJ. And, as hard as it is to believe, there were actually gifted athletes playing the game above the rim before him, as well. I have maintained that the average player of today is generally bigger, stronger, faster, more athletic, and perhaps even more skilled...but, the differences between those of today, and of 50 years ago are not as great as the what the current generation perceives. I still get riled up over a comment a poster made a few months ago, that claimed that the WBNA players of today would beat the NBA players of the 1960's.
Anyway, another great post G.O.A.T.
Sorry if he was already mentioned, but what about a guy like Randy Smith?
Now there was a dude who could fly. Rarely if ever gets his due, in part because he played in Buffalo and beyond that because he played in the 1970's.
How good could Doug Collins have been?
What about Johnny Neumann?
aau and Nique, you guys remember Billy Ray Bates?
What do you do with guys like Gar Heard, Paul Westphal?
man , tryin to get caught up with work
just looked up and it's 11:30 already
randy and doug are as good a place to start as any
let me put some things together and hit you back tomorrow
There close but not that close Dunbar and carroll are in DC and DeMatha is in MD about 20min. away.Good story on Byron he is so underrated,once Lost a bet that he lead the Lakers in scoring one year.
how'd you lose that bet
he led the repeat team in scoring avg 21.7 scored 1754 pts
worthy was 2nd in scoring avg 19.7 with 1478 points
it was pretty much the reverse in the playoffs
Speaking of Doug Colllins...how good could Raymond Lewis have been?
http://www.raymondlewis.com/
this dude right here , man
the stories are endless
good stuff j
Niquesports
01-10-2011, 04:59 PM
how'd you lose that bet
he led the repeat team in scoring avg 21.7 scored 1754 pts
worthy was 2nd in scoring avg 19.7 with 1478 points
it was pretty much the reverse in the playoffs
This is why I say the Showtime lakers are the most underrated team of all time. They had 3-4 players that could take over scoring,people like to say they were weak on defense . You dont win 5 titles and be weak on Defense ask Steve Nash and Dirk.
Champ
01-11-2011, 12:21 AM
you misconstrued . . . i said bird was good for
22/10 on 49% thru his first 4 reg seasons
but what about them playoff numbers
will you take those as well
The numbers I posted are playoff numbers.
Yes, I would still take them.
This is going to be a super blowhard post, so if you're not in this nostalgic lovefest with us, just ignore me.
I'm glad you appreciate that perspective, I have always used it and similar analogies to display the importance of historical context.
I would take the appreciation of basketball stars back even further than the 40's though.
Obviously in the beginning their was Naismith and the YMCA's, but the game took a direction of it's own because of teams like the Buffalo Germans, Loendi Big Five, Original Celtics and Harlem Rens.
Early stars like Cumberland Posey who played pro baseball and basketball and even played college basketball with whites, while posing as a white student at what is now Dusquene University.
Guys like Joe Lapchick of the original Celtics, who would later coach the New York Knicks and Charles "Tarzan" Cooper of the Harlem Rens. A 6'6" White guy and 6'6' Black guy who dressed in shorts and sleeveless shirts would embrace before every jump ball between their racial segregated teams.
These guys, more so than in any other American Team sport, paved the way and built from scratch a game that so many like us love. Basketball is a baby, barely 100 years old. It is original, created to be what it it, not bourne out of variations of other games. It is a beautiful game of skill, discipline, imagination, selflessness and creativity.
My greatest lament as a fan of the game is watching players, teams, and eras of basketball forgotten, overlooked or eroded by the incredible shortsightedness of so many of today's fans. I've been working on my book for over a year now, my goat list for almost 20 years and have been a fan of basketball presumably since my dad placed a ball in two year old me's crib because I liked watching him play so much. I've been as guilty of being as shortsighted as those I criticize, but I never had the amazing resource that is the internet at my disposal. To me there is no excuse not to appreciate the players of 30, 40 50 and even 100 years ago, their story is finally being told and it's remarkable similar to the one unfolding in today's NBA.
Epically great post!:applause:
But I know you dont know about my man KP:cheers:
few things about y'boy "KP"
* led 75 bullets to nba finals
* led nba in assists 4 times including 3 consecutive
* had a record 29 assists in a game (skiles 30 in 1980)
* as of 1987 only player with 25+ assists 3 times (stockton)
* 20+ assists 10 or more times (stock 38 - magic 32 - k p 17)
.
1950 born in chicago - attended DuSable HS
DuSable alumni
* redd foxx
* nat king cole
* don cornelius
* maurice cheeks
* harold washington (city's 1st black mayor)
* dinah washington (grammy award - jazz singer)
.
redd foxx birth name
John Elroy Sanford
The numbers I posted are playoff numbers.
Yes, I would still take them.
15 on 42% in 80-81 finals were the numbers i posted
players get bashed with better numbers today
29/8/4/2/1 on 40%
concensus
.
.
garbage
Niquesports
01-11-2011, 03:37 PM
few things about y'boy "KP"
* led 75 bullets to nba finals
* led nba in assists 4 times including 3 consecutive
* had a record 29 assists in a game (skiles 30 in 1980)
* as of 1987 only player with 25+ assists 3 times (stockton)
* 20+ assists 10 or more times (stock 38 - magic 32 - k p 17)
.
1950 born in chicago - attended DuSable HS
DuSable alumni
* redd foxx
* nat king cole
* don cornelius
* maurice cheeks
* harold washington (city's 1st black mayor)
* dinah washington (grammy award - jazz singer)
.
redd foxx birth name
John Elroy Sanford
True story.
As a kid I went to his basketball camp.He took a liking for me,in camp ,most of the staff use to call me Lil KP.University of MD star John Lucas came as a guest speaker one day.During Q&A a kid ased John if he would play KP in a 1 on 1.In a low voice KP says he only plays for money.John sat at the foul line for a min. looking. Then he finally said naw KP would beat me he's a pro.KP took it personal and for the rest of the day thats all he talked about.
Top 50
.
PG
1 magic ..... 5 frazier ..... 9 stock
2 oscar ...... 6 pearl ...... 10 kidd
3 isiah ....... 7 d j
4 cousy ..... 8 tiny
SG
1 jordan ..... 5 pistol
2 kobe ....... 6 david
3 west ...... 7 drexler
4 gervin ..... 8 iverson
C
1 kaj ........ 5 moses ....... 9 artis
2 russ ...... 6 hakeem .... 10 walton
3 wilt ....... 7 reed ........ 11 unseld
4 shaq ...... 8 cowens .... 12 parish
PF
1 duncan ...... 5 mcadoo ..... 9 haywood
2 barkley ...... 6 big e ........ 10 j lucas
3 karl ........... 7 mchale
4 pettit ........ 8 k g
SF
1 dr. j .......... 5 havcek ........ 9 billy c
1 bird ........... 6 pippen ....... 10 bking
3 baylor ........ 7 nique
4 barry ......... 8 worthy
.
PG
billups , nash , payton , porter , gus , parker
penny , m r r , cheeks , price , randy
m jax , tim h , alvin , g'rich , kj
SG
wade , greer , white , sjones , c scott , reggie
manu , ray , mitch , toney , westphal , davis
collins , moncrief , bing , griffith , dumars
C
dwight , ewing , d rob , nate , issel , zo
daugherty , dikembe , wallace , lanier
PF
dirk , gus j , bellamy , pau , amare
c webb , buck , lucas , rasheed , nance
SF
lebron , tmac , chet , deB , marques , mullin
g hill , rice , pierce , rodman , chambers
kemp , d ellis , cummings , vince
.
.
.
U H M - George Mikan
H H M - arizin , cooper , guerin , fulks , sharman , clifton , dolph
stokes , kerr , davies , neilston , lloyd , yardley and barksdale
True story.
As a kid I went to his basketball camp.He took a liking for me,in camp ,most of the staff use to call me Lil KP.University of MD star John Lucas came as a guest speaker one day.During Q&A a kid ased John if he would play KP in a 1 on 1.In a low voice KP says he only plays for money.John sat at the foul line for a min. looking. Then he finally said naw KP would beat me he's a pro.KP took it personal and for the rest of the day thats all he talked about.
lil KP eh . . . that's funny
if you don't mind my asking
where did you go to high school
-
forgot to list y'boy
my bad
Niquesports
01-11-2011, 05:20 PM
ULTIMATE HONORABLE MENTION
George Mikan
HIGH HONORABLE MENTION
arizin , cooper , guerin , clifton , dolph , stokes , kerr , lloyd
and don barksdale , the first black nba all star in 1953
.
this is how i would rank the top 50 by position
(in order)
.
PG
1 magic ..... 5 frazier ..... 9 d j
2 oscar ..... 6 pearl
3 isiah ....... 7 tiny
4 cousy ..... 8 stock
I would add KiddSG
1 jordan ..... 5 pistol ....... 9 bing
2 kobe ....... 6 david
3 west ....... 7 drexler
4 gervin ...... 8 iverson
I would take out Pistol put in Sam Jones in his spot put Hal Geer at 10 and Pistol at 11C
1 kaj ............ 5 moses ....... 9 artis
2 russ .......... 6 hakeem ..... 10 walton
3 wilt ........... 7 reed
4 shaq .......... 8 cowens
I would replace Cowens with D Rob at 8 move everyone down 1 replaceing Walton then add Pat at 11 and move Walton over to HM.Just not big enough of a resume.PF
1 duncan ........ 5 mcadoo ........ 9 j lucas
2 barkley ........ 6 big e
3 karl ............. 7 mchale
4 pettit .......... 8 haywood
I move Hayes to 4 Pettie at 4 but Im kinda incline to have him with Milkan as an HM with the other old guys.IF that was to happen I would replace him with KG at 6SF
1 dr. j .......... 5 pippen ........ 9 billy c
1 bird ........... 6 havcek ...... 10 bking
3 baylor ........ 7 nique
4 barry ......... 8 worthy
Bold move putting Dr J over Bird.IF you add his ABA years i can live with that.I move Hondo over Pippen.2 versatile players how ever Hondo lead a team as its best player to a title The Time Pip had a chance he couldn't do it.
.actually it's 47 players
who do you add - who do you drop
these are the remaining players by position
(no order)
.
PG
kidd , payton , billups , nash , porter
gus , price , randy , m jax , alvin , g'rich
SG
white , sjones , c scott , greer , reggie
ray , mitch , westphal , wdavis , collins
C
unseld , ewing , d rob , parish , nate
zo , dikembe , wallace , daugherty
PF
gus j , bellamy , dirk , pau , c webb
amare , buck , lucas
SF
chet , marques , mullin , g hill , pierce , deB
rodman , chambers , kemp , rasheed
.
where do you include
lebron , wade , dwight , vince , tmac , cheeks , parker
tim h , penny , M R R , manu , kj , moncrief
toney , griffith , dumars , d ellis
Payton,Parrish,Unseld,Nate,Dirk . I think every 5 years they should add to the group. Kinda of like THE HOF.SO I think its been like 10 years + so it should be a top 60 right about now.
Niquesports
01-11-2011, 05:23 PM
lil KP eh . . . that's funny
if you don't mind my asking
where did you go to high school
-
forgot to list y'boy
my bad
The famed Dematha 83'
The famed Dematha 83'
is that right . . . .
you were there with danny ferry
i remember the 83 class very well , , , wasn't loaded
turned out most of the ballyhoo was just hype
but there were a couple of players i liked
.
kenny smith
my favorite college player his frosh year
loved mike no doubt but this dude was
more my kind of player . . . his frosh
year at unc was flat out rediculous
- he was way beyond his years
one of thee best freshman PGs i'd ever seen
had he not broke his hand (and my heart)
right before the tournament jordan gets
another title , not a doubt in my mind
amazingly to me , i got to meet him
he has an aau program out here
called AIM HIGH , , i coached
against him few years back
i'm trying to convince him to
send his son to my son's school
speaking of which
i want you to see something
google: "abbotsford collegiate"
enter main site and click on snowball classic
.
also
kept hearing about this cat named pearl washington
couldn't wait to see him . . . for the name alone
finally saw him . . . slow , fat , unathletic
"are you serious??!!" . . . . "pearl??!!"
"change your name son"
.
between he , dalrymple and antoine joubert i could not tell
you which guy was hyped more , , , but neither could
play anywhere near the press they were getting
. . . . . major disappointments
.
keith gatlin , tommy amaker and james blackmon were ballers
but the ONE guy that shoulda blew up from that class
reggie williams - dunbar high baltimore
the first coming of kevin durant
long , sleek and smooth as silk
soon as the clippers drafted him
knew it would be all bad
.
got som'n for ya
you may know of them already
but check these sites out
dcbasketball.com
dcbasketball.wordpress.com
Payton,Parrish,Unseld,Nate,Dirk . I think every 5 years they should add to the group. Kinda of like THE HOF.SO I think its been like 10 years + so it should be a top 60 right about now.
PG - add j kidd . . . . . . totally agree
.
SG - replace pistol with jones and put greer 10th
sam jones over pistol . . . gotta tell me why?
.
C - replace cowens with d rob - move walton to HM add ewing
man , you guys don't know just how good walton was
this dude played center like a small forward
super skilled , probably the most
skilled big man ever
d-rob and ewing over walton when
walton led his team to a title?
.
PF - replace pettit with kg . . . move big e to 4
like cousy , pettit deserves more than H H M
gotta tell me why he s/b replaced by big e
definitely omitted kg in error
.
SF - havlicek over pippen??!!
gotta sell me on that one
Niquesports
01-11-2011, 07:42 PM
is that right . . . .
you were there with danny ferry
i remember the 83 class very well , , , wasn't loaded
turned out most of the ballyhoo was just hype
but there were a couple of players i liked
.
kenny smith
my favorite college player his frosh year
loved mike no doubt but this dude was
more my kind of player . . . his frosh
year at unc was flat out rediculous
- he was way beyond his years
one of thee best freshman PGs i'd ever seen
had he not broke his hand (and my heart)
right before the tournament jordan gets
another title , not a doubt in my mind
amazingly to me , i got to meet him
he has an aau program out here
called AIM HIGH , , i coached
against him few years back
i'm trying to convince him to
send his son to my son's school
speaking of which
i want you to see something
google: "abbotsford collegiate"
enter main site and click on snowball classic
.
also
kept hearing about this cat named pearl washington
couldn't wait to see him . . . for the name alone
finally saw him . . . slow , fat , unathletic
"are you serious??!!" . . . . "pearl??!!"
"change your name son"
.
between he , dalrymple and antoine joubert i could not tell
you which guy was more hyped more , but neither could
play anywhere near the press they were getting
. . . . . major disappointments
.
keith gatlin , tommy amaker and james blackmon were ballers
but the ONE guy that shoulda blew up from that class
reggie williams - dunbar high baltimore
the first coming of kevin durant
long , sleek and smooth as silk
soon as the clippers drafted him
knew it would be all bad
.
got som'n for ya
you may know of them already
but check these sites out
dcbasketball.com
dcbasketball.wordpress.com
I have both sites locked in my favorites on my laptop.
I think if Im not mistaken Rodstrickland and mark jackson were also 83 NY had 4 of the top PG for that class.Kenny was nice I think people underrate Sam,Kenny and what was the third G name He could light it up. Stayed in trouble.
Can't agreewith you on Pearl.He gave G Town fits.I dont think his weight didn't hurt him until he got into the league.
Reggie Williams he was before his time. I think in todays game of perimeter play he may have been at least a decent pro but Man he could do it. That famed Dunbar of Baltimore had Him David Wingate, Reggie Lewis, The yougest of the Graham Bro's but the player that knocked you out your seat was 5'5 Muggys Bouges.He was a 1 man full court press machine. OF all the small players Boykins,Spudd Give me Muggys.Danny was behind me but he played in a classic City Title game against Sherman Douglass and Spingarn. Spingarn was 39 and -0 there tallest player was 6'5 on the books 6'3 in person.Great game.In a past post I stated that John Thompson's Carroll went 39-0 sorry it was 59-0 4 D 1 players back in those days which was unheard of.Im sure you know Jim Brown not the football player but the TV NFL guy, He was All World many put him just behind Adrian Dantley as the best DeMatha product.
Niquesports
01-11-2011, 08:17 PM
PG - add j kidd . . . . . . totally agree
.
SG - replace pistol with jones and put greer 10th
sam jones over pistol . . . gotta tell me why?
.
C - replace cowens with d rob - move walton to HM add ewing
man , you guys don't know just how good walton was
this dude played center like a small forward
super skilled , probably the most
skilled big men ever
d-rob and ewing over walton when
walton led his team to a title?
.
PF - replace pettit with kg . . . move big e to 4
like cousy , pettit deserves more than H H M
gotta tell me why he s/b replaced by big e
definitely omitted kg in error
.
SF - havlicek over pippen??!!
gotta sell me on that one
I'll start with Petti.,Pettie was a top player from the mid 50's to early 60's. I have to respect his accomplishments as a player. But for me all them guys to be fair to later post blacks playing and fair to the white stars that played pre blacks there should be a seperate rankings.
Maybe Im bias but Hayes was a elite star in the most dominant era of big men.maybe being a Bullets fan I'm bias . But as a complete PF Hayes did it all scored,rebounded and blocked shots.He was never a like person or player the media in the 60's and 70's wasn't as kind to introverted outspoken Black players as they are today.
Walton,Im one of the people that saw him play. G.O.A.T. and I have battle over him. This is my take on Walton he has 1 1/2 years of elite play on his resume.Ok in that time he won a title,MVP,and showed his skill was that of a top 5 C.HOwever DRob and Pat have pages of accomplishments its just not fair. Do we rank Grant Hill based on his complete career or just his pre injury time,how about Spencer Haywood ? Wouldn't Tiny be a top 5 PG if we just look at his KC days? G.O.A.T. stance is that in Walton's brief elite time he won a title.That would be fine if you don't include the fact that Lucas and Dr. Jack had major input to winning that title. Bottom line I just can't rank a player as an All TIme Great if he only played at tht level for 1 1/2 years.But I guess its how you look at it All Time Great skill level or All Time Great career.
Pistol was a Kevin Durrant to me. Now don't get me wrong KD is a Hometown guy. However right now he is just a scorer if his shot is off he is a dead man.Sam Jones performed at the highest level.Pistol had little team success. You know old time basketball his name was a legend from college A SEC school that didnt play black players or teams. Was he really better than World B Free. I would take Jo JO White over Pistol.
Hondo over Pippen
1 Hondo won as his teams best player Pippen couldn't do that
2 Hondo as a role player was just as good as Pippen
3 Pippen was more athletic but in ranking players of different era's you can't use that.At this level of ranking players I always say who was the better team leader. If all else is even team leader tops all else. I just feel Hondo became a true Batman and Pippen was a Robin or maybe a kato. He needed a Green Hornet. Now people will jump on me this isn't a knock but not everyone is a team leader. IT has nothing to do with skill level. This is why I rank Russ over KAJ
I have both sites locked in my favorites on my laptop.
I think if Im not mistaken Rodstrickland and mark jackson were also 83 NY had 4 of the top PG for that class.Kenny was nice I think people underrate Sam,Kenny and what was the third G name He could light it up. Stayed in trouble.
Can't agreewith you on Pearl.He gave G Town fits.I dont think his weight didn't hurt him until he got into the league.
Reggie Williams he was before his time. I think in todays game of perimeter play he may have been at least a decent pro but Man he could do it. That famed Dunbar of Baltimore had Him David Wingate, Reggie Lewis, The yougest of the Graham Bro's but the player that knocked you out your seat was 5'5 Muggys Bouges.He was a 1 man full court press machine. OF all the small players Boykins,Spudd Give me Muggys.Danny was behind me but he played in a classic City Title game against Sherman Douglass and Spingarn. Spingarn was 39 and -0 there tallest player was 6'5 on the books 6'3 in person.Great game.In a past post I stated that John Thompson's Carroll went 39-0 sorry it was 59-0 4 D 1 players back in those days which was unheard of.Im sure you know Jim Brown not the football player but the TV NFL guy, He was All World many put him just behind Adrian Dantley as the best DeMatha product.
mark jackson was in that 83 class
set ncaa record as a junior avg 9.1 assists
led nation in assists as senior with 868a avg 9.1 & 19ppg
rod strickland came out the year after mark . . . . both
were drafted to the knicks in consecutive years
could never understand why they did that
.
with regards to kenny and sam and the other guard
had to check that roster - are you referring to
steve hale or buzz peterson
you're right about his weight troubling him in the league but
i was just never impressed , , yeah he was aight in college
it's just the hype this dude received was beyond belief
.
damn , that's right . . . reggie , wingate , lewis and mugsy were
all on the same hs team . . . they went 29-0 in 81-82 during
lewis junior year and 31-0 his senior yr ... that's rediculous
i remember the name graham at g'town with reggie
he got into some trouble and left school iirc
.
mugsy over spud??!! . . . can't roll with you on that nique
spud was from another planet . . . i saw this dude do
every dunk that dominique did while warming up
for a summer league pro am game . . . . . .
wes matthews too
.
damn , , , , big john played in 3 straight city ch'ship games
team had a 48 game winning streak , , , , finished 59-0
that's crazy
ay , check out the syracuse/st. johns game on espnU tonight
one of my former players -dwayne polee- play for st johns
check him out
.
.
did you check that 'abbotsford' site out
MiseryCityTexas
01-12-2011, 03:03 PM
Regarding Chamberlain, you can throw out the staggering numbers if you like, but his DIFFERENTIALS were also LIGHT YEARS ahead of EVERY player of his era.
And, in his "scoring" prime, from his rookie year until his 65-66 season, he not only averaged nearly 40 ppg...COMBINED...he also was the league's most efficient shooter...by a wide margin (and then he just annihilated his peers from 66-67 thru his last season in 72-73.) BUT, not only that, if you want to argue the greatness of Russell...Chamberlain averaged 34 ppg against Russell in those seven seasons, including two seasons of 38 ppg. In his 62-63 season, and against Russell in nine H2H games, he not only outrebounded him, he outscored by a 38-14 per game. We don't have their FG% numbers, but Wilt led the league in FG% at .528 (in fact, it was a new record at the time), while Russell shot .432. In Chamberlain's rookie season, in 11 H2H games against Russell, he outscored him, per game, 38-20...and while we don't have the 11th game's FG% numbers, in their first ten meetings, Wilt outshot Russell, H2H, from the floor, .465 to .398 (and Russell shot a career best .467 during the season.) In the 63-64 Finals, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 29-11, and outrebounded him, per game, 27-25. We don't have their FG% numbers in that post-season, but Wilt shot .543 in his 11 playoff games, while Russell shot .356 in his 10...and five were H2H. In the 64-65 ECF's, Wilt averaged a 30-31 game in his seven playoff games against Russell.
The facts were, in their 142 H2H games, Wilt not only outscored Russell by a 28.7 ppg to 14.5 ppg average, and outrebounded him by a 28.7 rpg to 23.7 rpg average...he probably outshot Russell by perhaps as much as a 100 points from the field. In their H2H games, series, and seasons, in which we do have their FG% numbers, Chamberlain was WAY AHEAD of Russell in shooting. Wilt outscored Russell in 132 of their 142 games, and had a 92-42-8 edge in rebounding in those games, as well. In fact, Wilt not only outscored Russell in EVERY H2H regular season and post-season, he also outrebounded Russell in EVERY H2H regular season and post-season. And, the overwhelming evidence suggests that he outshot Russell from the floor by a huge margin, as well.
Think about those numbers for a moment...Wilt nearly averaged a 30-30 game EVERY time the two faced each other...and he may have outshot Russell by a HUGE margin in the process.
So, ultimately...has there even been another great player, who so thoroughly dominated another great player, at least statistically, and in their PRIMES, as much as Chamberlain did to Russell?
of course wilt gonna put up better numbers than russel. bill russel was on a team full of allstars throughout his whole career.
G.O.A.T
01-12-2011, 03:11 PM
of course wilt gonna put up better numbers than russel. bill russel was on a team full of allstars throughout his whole career.
Number of All-Star teammates Wilt played with: 24
Number of All-Star teammates Russell played with: 26
That's all-star games selected to in seasons where they were teammates.
But yes, the Celtics played a team style which resulted in a greater dispersal of points.
Niquesports
01-12-2011, 03:22 PM
mark jackson was in that 83 class
set ncaa record as a junior avg 9.1 assists
led nation in assists as senior with 868a avg 9.1 & 19ppg
rod strickland came out the year after mark . . . . both
were drafted to the knicks in consecutive years
could never understand why they did that
.
with regards to kenny and sam and the other guard
had to check that roster - are you referring to
steve hale or buzz peterson
you're right about his weight troubling him in the league but
i was just never impressed , , yeah he was aight in college
it's just the hype this dude received was beyond belief
.
damn , that's right . . . reggie , wingate , lewis and mugsy were
all on the same hs team . . . they went 29-0 in 81-82 during
lewis junior year and 31-0 his senior yr ... that's rediculous
i remember the name graham at g'town with reggie
he got into some trouble and left school iirc
.
mugsy over spud??!! . . . can't roll with you on that nique
spud was from another planet . . . i saw this dude do
every dunk that dominique did while warming up
for a summer league pro am game . . . . . .
wes matthews too
.
damn , , , , big john played in 3 straight city ch'ship games
team had a 48 game winning streak , , , , finished 59-0
that's crazy
ay , check out the syracuse/st. johns game on espnU tonight
one of my former players -dwayne polee- play for st johns
check him out
.
.
did you check that 'abbotsford' site out
Yes I checked our the site is that your team? I ref a lot of aau games in DC. Well I use to slowed down the last few years.But on one clip during warm up I saw a kid Dunk Thats a T in Federation rules.But there was one kid during that warmup had good handle and a sweet stroke.
The Graham dude was Michael ( Ithink) he went to UNLV his older brother Ernie played a Albert King Buck Williams at maryland.
Met Spudd at NC State. The dude was my size Im 5'8 I have never touched the rim but on a ladder putting up new Nets.To see him Dunk the way he did was Wow. But as a overall player I'll take Muggys
One of his teammates was Monk Malloy he went on to be I want to say the President of Notre Dame. A white guy who every black old head I have talked to says was all of it.At that time in DC blacks looked down at the black players that went to Catholic schools.John George Leftwish and Johnny Austin were as good as any City baller.So many hated John's team,by the way most say Leftwish was the best player on that team,.
Niquesports
01-12-2011, 03:25 PM
mark jackson was in that 83 class
set ncaa record as a junior avg 9.1 assists
led nation in assists as senior with 868a avg 9.1 & 19ppg
rod strickland came out the year after mark . . . . both
were drafted to the knicks in consecutive years
could never understand why they did that
.
with regards to kenny and sam and the other guard
had to check that roster - are you referring to
steve hale or buzz peterson
you're right about his weight troubling him in the league but
i was just never impressed , , yeah he was aight in college
it's just the hype this dude received was beyond belief
.
damn , that's right . . . reggie , wingate , lewis and mugsy were
all on the same hs team . . . they went 29-0 in 81-82 during
lewis junior year and 31-0 his senior yr ... that's rediculous
i remember the name graham at g'town with reggie
he got into some trouble and left school iirc
.
mugsy over spud??!! . . . can't roll with you on that nique
spud was from another planet . . . i saw this dude do
every dunk that dominique did while warming up
for a summer league pro am game . . . . . .
wes matthews too
.
damn , , , , big john played in 3 straight city ch'ship games
team had a 48 game winning streak , , , , finished 59-0
that's crazy
ay , check out the syracuse/st. johns game on espnU tonight
one of my former players -dwayne polee- play for st johns
check him out
.
.
did you check that 'abbotsford' site out
Veron Maxwell was the guard I was thinkng about.Dude had game.
I'll start with Petti.,Pettie was a top player from the mid 50's to early 60's. I have to respect his accomplishments as a player. But for me all them guys to be fair to later post blacks playing and fair to the white stars that played pre blacks there should be a seperate rankings.
Maybe Im bias but Hayes was a elite star in the most dominant era of big men.maybe being a Bullets fan I'm bias . But as a complete PF Hayes did it all scored,rebounded and blocked shots.He was never a like person or player the media in the 60's and 70's wasn't as kind to introverted outspoken Black players as they are today.
Walton,Im one of the people that saw him play. G.O.A.T. and I have battle over him. This is my take on Walton he has 1 1/2 years of elite play on his resume.Ok in that time he won a title,MVP,and showed his skill was that of a top 5 C.HOwever DRob and Pat have pages of accomplishments its just not fair. Do we rank Grant Hill based on his complete career or just his pre injury time,how about Spencer Haywood ? Wouldn't Tiny be a top 5 PG if we just look at his KC days? G.O.A.T. stance is that in Walton's brief elite time he won a title.That would be fine if you don't include the fact that Lucas and Dr. Jack had major input to winning that title. Bottom line I just can't rank a player as an All TIme Great if he only played at tht level for 1 1/2 years.But I guess its how you look at it All Time Great skill level or All Time Great career.
Pistol was a Kevin Durrant to me. Now don't get me wrong KD is a Hometown guy. However right now he is just a scorer if his shot is off he is a dead man.Sam Jones performed at the highest level.Pistol had little team success. You know old time basketball his name was a legend from college A SEC school that didnt play black players or teams. Was he really better than World B Free. I would take Jo JO White over Pistol.
Hondo over Pippen
1 Hondo won as his teams best player Pippen couldn't do that
2 Hondo as a role player was just as good as Pippen
3 Pippen was more athletic but in ranking players of different era's you can't use that.At this level of ranking players I always say who was the better team leader. If all else is even team leader tops all else. I just feel Hondo became a true Batman and Pippen was a Robin or maybe a kato. He needed a Green Hornet. Now people will jump on me this isn't a knock but not everyone is a team leader. IT has nothing to do with skill level. This is why I rank Russ over KAJ
can't roll with you on big e over pettit
this dude was way ahead of his time
played center in college ... after ROY in 55 he was moved
to forward and won scoring title 25.7 and led league in
boards 16.2 having never played the position ... was
named ASG MVP after 20p - 24reb performance
won nba title in '58 over russell-led celtics
matched nba playoff record 50p in G 6
scored 19 of team's final 21 points
avgd 29.2 in 1959 - another nba record
retired in 1965
1st recipient of NBA MVP award
1st player to score 20k points
2nd player to avg 20/20 - wilt
2nd all time in rebounds - 13k
all-star every year in the league
10x 1stT avg 20p 12r career
only player in L H to avg 20+ pts in every season they played
(jordan averaged exactly 20 in his final season)
this dude was pure nique
.
"walton had only a year and half of elite play -
d rob and ewing have pages of accomplishments"
yeah , , , and none of them include nba championship
they each had the chance to put their stamp on the game
couldn't do it . . . . the missed fingerroll from 3 feet will
haunt ewing forever . . . . d-rob was thoroughly out
played by hakeem to the point of embarrassment
they had their chances .... jus never delivered
"lucas and coach had major input on title team"
ewing had pat riley for 4 years on 50 win teams . . didn't
win jack . . . lost to pacers who had just one player in
reggie miller . . . what about the abuse he received
from hakeem to the tune of 27p on 50% shooting
9 boards 4 assists and 4 blocks per game
ewing . . . . 18ppg at 36%
embarrassing
you can't say ewing had no help when every game of
a 7 game final was decided by less than 10 points
and don't get me started on d rob who ducked
tail every single time he saw shaq coming
no way these guys had as great an
impact on the game as walton
. . . . . no way
.
"wouldn't tiny nate be top 5 using just kc days"
not with magic , oscar , isiah , cousy , clyde and pearl around
.
pistol was just a scorer , , , like a kevin durant??!!
you think kd is just a scorer??!! . . . . wow!!
"had little team success . . was he better than
world b free or even jo jo white"
i said sell me on it , , not sail me on it
maravich was much more than that nique
these cats couldn't hold a pistol to pete
.
from 62-68 sam jones was good for 22/5/3 on 45%
- but was he ever the best player on his team
scoringwise
1962 - heiny and russ led team in both RS and PS
1963 - sam led team during RS - heiny led in PS
1964 - hav'cek led team in RS - sam led in PS
*1965 - sam led team in both RS & PS
1966 - sam led team in RS - shared with hav in PS
1967 - sam led team in RS - hav led team in PS
1968 - sam led during RS - hav again during PS
.
'65 appears to be sam's strongest year . . . do you think
he was better than russell who avg 14p 24r during RS
and 16p on 52% and 25 reb in the postseason
.
hondo and pippen on the backburner
it's past my lunchtime and i'm starving
Niquesports
01-12-2011, 05:34 PM
can't roll with you on big e over pettit
this dude was way ahead of his time
played center in college ... after ROY in 55 he was moved
to forward and won scoring title 25.7 and led league in
boards 16.2 having never played the position ... was
named ASG MVP after 20p - 24reb performance
won nba title in '58 over russell-led celtics
matched nba playoff record 50p in G 6
scored 19 of team's final 21 points
avgd 29.2 in 1959 - another nba record
retired in 1965
1st recipient of NBA MVP award
1st player to score 20k points
2nd player to avg 20/20 - wilt
2nd all time in rebounds - 13k
all-star every year in the league
10x 1stT avg 20p 12r career
only player in L H to avg 20+ pts in every season they played
(jordan averaged exactly 20 in his final season)
this dude was pure nique
.
"walton had only a year and half of elite play -
d rob and ewing have pages of accomplishments"
yeah , , , and none of them include nba championship
they each had the chance to put their stamp on the game
couldn't do it . . . . the missed fingerroll from 3 feet will
haunt ewing forever . . . . d-rob was thoroughly out
played by hakeem to the point of embarrassment
they had their chances .... jus never delivered
"lucas and coach had major input on title team"
ewing had pat riley for 4 years on 50 win teams . . didn't
win jack . . . lost to pacers who had just one player in
reggie miller . . . what about the abuse he received
from hakeem to the tune of 27p on 50% shooting
9 boards 4 assists and 4 blocks per game
ewing . . . . 18ppg at 36%
embarrassing
you can't say ewing had no help when every game of
a 7 game final was decided by less than 10 points
and don't get me started on d rob who ducked
tail every single time he saw shaq coming
no way these guys had as great an
impact on the game as walton
. . . . . no way
.
"wouldn't tiny nate be top 5 using just kc days"
not with magic , oscar , isiah , cousy , clyde and pearl around
.
pistol was just a scorer , , , like a kevin durant??!!
you think kd is just a scorer??!! . . . . wow!!
"had little team success . . was he better than
world b free or even jo jo white"
i said sell me on it , , not sail me on it
maravich was much more than that nique
these cats couldn't hold a pistol to pete
.
from 62-68 sam jones was good for 22/5/3 on 45%
- but was he ever the best player on his team
scoringwise
1962 - heiny and russ led team in both RS and PS
1963 - sam led team during RS - heiny led in PS
1964 - hav'cek led team in RS - sam led in PS
*1965 - sam led team in both RS & PS
1966 - sam led team in RS - shared with hav in PS
1967 - sam led team in RS - hav led team in PS
1968 - sam led during RS - hav again during PS
.
'65 appears to be sam's strongest year . . . do you think
he was better than russell who avg 14p 24r during RS
and 16p on 52% and 25 reb in the postseason
.
hondo and pippen on the backburner
it's past my lunchtime and i'm starving
I hope you have lots of veggies for lunch.Good for the body.
Pettie as I said gets my HM with Milkan,CousySherman ect..
As well as Pettie numbers are look at Hayes as a "Rookie" he was selected a starter in the All Star game over Wilt.
I have never been sold on Pistol. Sure he could do it had made game but it never helped his team . I have read early in his career as a Hawk the old school guys didnt like him Like Lou Hudson.I love Iverson never saw a player play with so much heart but Pistol is a AI with less heart. Now Sam Jones I ask old heads they say him and Lenny Wilkins were all that.My father played against Lenny and he said he was crazy good. MY father played in Elgin's era so for him to say that lets you know how good Lenny must have been.
Hondo over Pippen
1 Hondo won as his teams best player Pippen couldn't do that
2 Hondo as a role player was just as good as Pippen
3 Pippen was more athletic but in ranking players of different era's you can't use that.At this level of ranking players I always say who was the better team leader. If all else is even team leader tops all else. I just feel Hondo became a true Batman and Pippen was a Robin or maybe a kato. He needed a Green Hornet. Now people will jump on me this isn't a knock but not everyone is a team leader. IT has nothing to do with skill level. This is why I rank Russ over KAJ
this one is a lot tougher
8 titles . . . 4 in his first 4 seasons
teammates were russell and jones
didn't know havlicek played at OSU with lucas
and bobby knight on 1960 ncaa title team
he gets points for that - i'ma buckeye
didn't know he was drafted by the nfl browns
the same year he was drafted by celtics
very impressive
"revolutionized the 6th man" award
all time celtic leader in points (26k) 11th all time
and in games played (1270) - 17th all time
only player to score 1k points 16 straight seasons
his best season was 70-71 avg 28.9
was named FMVP in 1974
super impressive
.
now for pippen
instrumental in 6 str8 titles and 72 win team
greatest defender to ever play the game
could defend all 5 positions and led
his team in assists and blocks
"a one man wrecking crew" . . . phil jackson
.
nba records
assists by forwards
6,135 assists 5.2 per game 23rd all time
highest steals avg by forward 2.9 in 95
highest # of steals by forward in a career
21 triple doubles (4 in postseason)
10x 1stD .... 8 str8 1stD (1 shy of record)
only player with 5 steals & 5 blocks in playoff game
(detroit in 1991)
only player ever to win nba title & gold medal TWICE
.
man , , , this is tough
i'm leaning towards havlicek with you seeing
he won multiple titles without russell
Yes I checked our the site is that your team? I ref a lot of aau games in DC. Well I use to slowed down the last few years.But on one clip during warm up I saw a kid Dunk Thats a T in Federation rules.But there was one kid during that warmup had good handle and a sweet stroke.
The Graham dude was Michael ( Ithink) he went to UNLV his older brother Ernie played a Albert King Buck Williams at maryland.
Met Spudd at NC State. The dude was my size Im 5'8 I have never touched the rim but on a ladder putting up new Nets.To see him Dunk the way he did was Wow. But as a overall player I'll take Muggys
One of his teammates was Monk Malloy he went on to be I want to say the President of Notre Dame. A white guy who every black old head I have talked to says was all of it.At that time in DC blacks looked down at the black players that went to Catholic schools.John George Leftwish and Johnny Austin were as good as any City baller.So many hated John's team,by the way most say Leftwish was the best player on that team,.
that's my son's high school team
my son is holding the trophy
to his left is larry drew's son landon
behind landon is brian taylor's son brendyn
and far right in the back is reggie theus' son reggie jr
all are juniors (incl my son) except lil reggie (6'5 soph)
landon and brendyn just transferred in this year
and they make the team so much better
click on the "2011 photos" and then "fairfax vs pitt meadows"
that first picture as they're running out - my son is second in line
that's their first tournament championship together
and my son's first trip out of the country
they were in british columbia canada
the early competition wasn't thick but the championship game was
tight as they had a couple of players off their nat'l team
it wasn't until the 4th Q when we pulled away
.
man , i can't recall their name but there's an aau team from dc that
comes down here all the time , , , their colors are red and yellow
if you called out the name i'd know it
.
not mad atcha . . . mugsy was tight
Veron Maxwell was the guard I was thinkng about.Dude had game.
ohhhhh , you talking about on the rockets
ok
G.O.A.T
01-12-2011, 08:55 PM
ULTIMATE HONORABLE MENTION
George Mikan
HIGH HONORABLE MENTION
arizin , cooper , guerin , clifton , dolph , stokes , kerr , lloyd
and don barksdale , the first black nba all star in 1953
Okay good start if were going to put the pre-shot clock stars in here. You also have to include Joe Fulks who pioneered the one hand jump shot, Bob Davies, who brought playground ball handling to the pro game and guys like George Yardley, Neil Johnston etc.
.
this is how i would rank the top 50 by position
(in order)
.
PG
1 magic ..... 5 frazier ..... 9 d j
2 oscar ..... 6 pearl
3 isiah ....... 7 tiny
4 cousy ..... 8 stock
Our top five are identical. Stockton is too low I think. The all-time assists and steals leader. Also Payton, Nash and Kidd have a strong case to be above Tiny and DJ. I got Pearl at the 2...His assist numbers were too low for me to look at him as a PG. He had amazing handle, but that aside, I see him as a 2.
SG
1 jordan ..... 5 pistol ....... 9 bing
2 kobe ....... 6 david
3 west ....... 7 drexler
4 gervin ...... 8 iverson
David Thompson can't be up that high. Same with Pistol and to some extent Gervin. Guys like Drexler and AI have accomplished so much more and if Dwyane Wade's career ended today, you're telling he hasn't done more and peaked higher than David Thompson?
C
1 kaj ............ 5 moses ....... 9 artis
2 russ .......... 6 hakeem ..... 10 walton
3 wilt ........... 7 reed
4 shaq .......... 8 cowens
Ewing over Gilmore. I think I'd put Nate Thurmond in there before Gilmore too.
David Robinson is #7 on my list, I can't see him lower than nine.
PF
1 duncan ........ 5 mcadoo ........ 9 j lucas
2 barkley ........ 6 big e
3 karl ............. 7 mchale
4 pettit .......... 8 haywood
I have Mac at center because his best years came playing that position. Either way he's a bit too high for me. Spencer Haywood shouldn't be in there. He was uber-talented, but give me Dave DeBusschere over him 100 times out of 100. I can't win with Haywood as my best player and he gets worse if he's not my best player. Also Dirk Nowitzki has to be included.
SF
1 dr. j .......... 5 pippen ........ 9 billy c
1 bird ........... 6 havcek ...... 10 bking
3 baylor ........ 7 nique
4 barry ......... 8 worthy
Bird's MVP's and rings separate him clearly from Doc. But I can see why you'd find it hard to say Bird was better.
Lebron has already done more than everyone outside the top six on the list.
Overall, it's not that far from mine, you have a lot of guys from the 70's (guessing that's your era) in their that I don't think measure up and you've left out a lot of guys from the last 15-20 years who I think are commonly included.
Niquesports
01-13-2011, 03:37 AM
Okay good start if were going to put the pre-shot clock stars in here. You also have to include Joe Fulks who pioneered the one hand jump shot, Bob Davies, who brought playground ball handling to the pro game and guys like George Yardley, Neil Johnston etc.
.
this is how i would rank the top 50 by position
(in order)
.
Our top five are identical. Stockton is too low I think. The all-time assists and steals leader. Also Payton, Nash and Kidd have a strong case to be above Tiny and DJ. I got Pearl at the 2...His assist numbers were too low for me to look at him as a PG. He had amazing handle, but that aside, I see him as a 2.
David Thompson can't be up that high. Same with Pistol and to some extent Gervin. Guys like Drexler and AI have accomplished so much more and if Dwyane Wade's career ended today, you're telling he hasn't done more and peaked higher than David Thompson?
Ewing over Gilmore. I think I'd put Nate Thurmond in there before Gilmore too.
David Robinson is #7 on my list, I can't see him lower than nine.
I have Mac at center because his best years came playing that position. Either way he's a bit too high for me. Spencer Haywood shouldn't be in there. He was uber-talented, but give me Dave DeBusschere over him 100 times out of 100. I can't win with Haywood as my best player and he gets worse if he's not my best player. Also Dirk Nowitzki has to be included.
Bird's MVP's and rings separate him clearly from Doc. But I can see why you'd find it hard to say Bird was better.
Lebron has already done more than everyone outside the top six on the list.
Overall, it's not that far from mine, you have a lot of guys from the 70's (guessing that's your era) in their that I don't think measure up and you've left out a lot of guys from the last 15-20 years who I think are commonly included.
The 3 of us are all close mixing a player here and a player there. My question to you G.O.A.T. You say replace TIny and D J with Nash or Kidd. YOur the main person always saying how important winning is. Both Tiny and Dj were focal players on winning teams,DJ on 2,.Both Tiny and DJ were much better defenders than Nash and both were more explosive offensive players than Kidd. Nash 2 questionable MVP's do little for me to put him over 2 second option championship players.
Im not sold a Dave Deb.sound player that benifitted from playing with the Knicks teams.I don't think his peak matches Haywood's when Dave was a Piston.
I'm kinda like aau about rating todays players. Its one thing for players that have reached their peak and are kinda in the twlight of their career i.e. Duncan,Shaq,to a degree even Kobe and Dirk. But Wade Lebron still have a big upside. Also many players are ranked not so much by their peak but by how much of a drop there was from getting to their peak and after they reached their peak.So its unfair to rank a incomplete player's career to a complete player's career.
jlauber
01-13-2011, 04:00 AM
Number of All-Star teammates Wilt played with: 24
Number of All-Star teammates Russell played with: 26
That's all-star games selected to in seasons where they were teammates.
But yes, the Celtics played a team style which resulted in a greater dispersal of points.
I'll save myself a ton of time, and do a copy-and-paste from another one of my posts...
Let's take a look at their respective rosters in Wilt's rookie season...
Wilt did have ONE legitimate great teammate, Paul Arizin, but to say that he was in his prime is to say that almost all of Russell's HOF teammates were in their prime. Arizin was 31 in Wilt's rookie season, and was done by age 33.
You always bring up Wilt's HOF teammates, much like Bill Simmons, but you never put them in proper context. Wilt's other "HOF" teammate in that 59-60 season? The "great" Tom Gola. As I have stated many times, Gola was a CAREER 11.3 ppg, 7.8 rpg, .431 shooter. In his BEST season, he averaged 15.0 ppg, 10.4 rpg, and shot .433. I don't care how good a teammate he was, he was NOT a HOFer.
That reminds of those posters who point out the "fact" that Wilt had two All-Star teammates on his horribel 62-63 roster. Tom Meschery and Guy Rodgers. C'mon! Meschery was a ONE-TIME all-star, who DID play his BEST with Wilt...but 16.0 ppg, 9.8 rpg, and .425 shooting is NOT all-star level. As for Rodgers...quite possibly the WORST shooter in NBA history (a career .378 shooter, who NEVER once shot 40% in a season.) And before someone compares his shooting with Cousy...Cousy shot considerably better against the NBA league average, than Rodgers did. How bad a shooter was Rodgers? He had one season in which the league average was .446...and he shot .347!
So, we now KNOW that Chamberlain played with only ONE quality player in his rookie season. How about Russell in that 59-60 season? Sharman, Cousy, Heinsohn, Ramsey, Sam Jones, and KC Jones...ALL in the HOF. Two of those players were over 30...Cousy at 31, and Sharman at 33. So, here again, if Arizin was in his "prime" then so was Cousy. Now, if you want to argue that Ramsey and KC Jones are as questionable as Gola, fine. I will say that Ramsey was a better offensive player than Gola, and KC Jones was probably a better defensive player.
And of those seven players, only KC Jones averaged less 10 ppg in that 59-60 season. And along with Russell,...Ramsey, Sharman, Cousy, and Heinsohn all averaged over 15 ppg.
And, as bad as Wilt's teammates were, even those two "stars", Arizin and Gola, played horribly in their three post-seasons with Wilt. In Arizin's last two playoff seasons, he shot .328 and .375. In Gola's last three post-seasons with Wilt, he shot .412, .206, and .271. Yep, he was a HOFer alright.
So, as you can plainly see, Russell had a HUGE edge in surrounding talent. And that trend would continue until the mid-60's, when Wilt was traded to the Sixers. BUT, even THEN, Russell had more HOF teammates EVERY season until he retired.
And YOU know, as well as I, that, not only did Russell have more HOF teammates, he played with them MUCH longer. For those that have never read this before, Russell played alongside quailty teammates, TWICE as many minutes in his career, than Chamberlain...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4229
Quote:
"Now you can see Russell's "score" is more than twice that of Wilt,"
"Obviously this is just a fun exercise, and far from scientific, but you can still see that Chamberlain's teammates were in fact significantly less talented than Russell's, by both our Quality of Teammates metric and even by Bill Simmons' own ranking method. So I don't think it's quite fair to say, "let's never mention the supporting-cast card again with Russell and Chamberlain," because it's still pretty obvious that Wilt's supporting cast was inferior to Russell's by a good margin."
Furthermore, the idiotic Simmons says that Wilt played with nearly as many HOF teammates as Russell in his career. That is such a stretch of the truth. While Russell played alongside HIS HOF teammates for anywhere from six to 12 years, how about Wilt? Let's see...Chamberlain played with the great Nate Thurmond...ONE season...Thurmond's rookie year. AND, Nate was playing 26 mpg, and mostly out of position (he played PF that year...and he was a HOF center). Not only that, but he shot .395 from the field.
Then there was Gail Goodrich. OK,...except that Russell had retired by the time Goodrich played with Wilt. Furthermore, Wilt played with Goodrich for TWO seasons.
Simmons also loves to bring up Baylor. After all, Elgin played on Wilt's teams for four seasons. EXCEPT, that Wilt was injured for nearly all of one of them (69-70), while Baylor played in TWO early season games in 70-71, and then "retired" after nine games in the 71-72 season (and not surprisingly, the Lakers immediately won 33 straight games, en route to a title.) And even in the season that Wilt missed 70 games, Baylor missed 28. On top of all of that, Baylor was well past his prime...and like Arizin and Gola, he was AWFUL in his post-seasons in the seasons he played with Wilt. In their ONE "full" season together, 68-69, Baylor averaged 15.3 ppg on .385 shooting in the post-season.
Then there was Jerry West. Wilt and West played together for five seasons. While West missed a ton of games in those years, he at least played considerably more than Baylor. Still, West missed the entire last fourth of the 70-71 season, including the playoffs...which left Chamberlain without BOTH West and Baylor in the playoffs that year. He also missed 21 games in their inaugural season together (68-69), eight games in the year in which Wilt missed 70, and 13 games in Wilt's last season (72-73.) The only year in which West was reasonably healthy, the 71-72 season, the Lakers won the title. Of course, West had the worst shooting slump of his entire post-season career that year...but, fortunately for LA, Wilt dominated in the playoffs, and won the Finals MVP.
But, even if you are going to use West and Baylor in the Russell-Wilt debates...those two only played with Wilt, and against Russell, for ONE season (that 68-69 year.)
So that leaves Wilt's HOF teammates in his 3 1/2 years with the Sixers (from halfway thru the 64-65 season thru the 67-68 season.) Cunningham did not join Philly until the 65-66 season, and was awful in the post-season that year, shooting .161 in the playoffs. He also broke his wrist in the first round of the playoffs in the 67-68 season, and missed the ECF's, when Philly lost a game seven, by four points, to the Celtics.
The ONLY HOF teammate that Wilt could count on EVERY year he played with him, was Hal Greer, whom he played alongside for all three-and-half years in Philadelphia. BUT, even Greer had a meltdown in the '66 ECF's, when he shot .325. And, in game seven of the '68 ECF's, he shot 8-25 from the floor. Still, overall, Greer was a great player when he was paired with Wilt.
Chamberlain also played alongside both Chet Walker and Luke Jackson in those 3 1/2 years, and while both had injury or shooting slumps in the post-season, they were exceptionally good players. But, if you are going to include them in any discussion about quality teammates, then you can argue that Russell had Bailey Howell, a HOFer and a deadly 20 ppg scorer in his Celtic years, and Satch Sanders, whom many regarded as one of the best defensive forwards of his era.
And, of course, Russell had those others. Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Jones, Jones, Ramsey, and Havlicek...and for MANY years. Furthermore, Sam Jones and Havlicek were legitimate 25-30 ppg scorers in their careers, and in fact, Havlicke had a season AFTER Russell, in which he averaged 28.9 ppg.
On top of those players, Russell also had Lovelette and Embry...both in the HOF...as well as players like Don Nelson, Larry Siegfried, and even Don Chaney.
Once again, Russell enjoyed an edge in HOFers, in Wilt's first six years, by margins of 7-3, 7-3, 6-3, 8-1, 7-2, and 5-2. Even in his last four years he had margins of 4-3, 6-3 (in a year in which Philly destroyed them in the ECF's, 4-1), 5-3 (and it was 5-2 in the ECF's, as Cunningham missed the entire series), and 4-3 (and as always, a much deeper bench.)
Now, do you still want to say that Wilt played with the same number of "prime" HOFers as Chamberlain? That was completely ridiculous. Russell had an overwhelming edge in talent in the vast majority of his H2H seasons with Wilt, and an edge in EVERY season.
G.O.A.T
01-13-2011, 04:53 AM
I'll save myself a ton of time, and do a copy-and-paste from another one of my posts...
Don't waste your time, in less than 100 characters all your opinions are cast aside in favor of facts.
Wilt had 24 all-star teammates, Russell had 26.
Wilt played with more 1st team all-NBA guys from 60-69 etc.
I even think Russell had better teammates, I'm just not ignorant enough to pretend it was some major gap.
It really makes it hard for me to enjoy the other great conversations I have with you sometimes, you're absolute refusal make more accurate your Wilt-Russell arguments.
jlauber
01-13-2011, 05:11 AM
Don't waste your time, in less than 100 characters all your opinions are cast aside in favor of facts.
Wilt had 24 all-star teammates, Russell had 26.
Wilt played with more 1st team all-NBA guys from 60-69 etc.
I even think Russell had better teammates, I'm just not ignorant enough to pretend it was some major gap.
It really makes it hard for me to enjoy the other great conversations I have with you sometimes, you're absolute refusal make more accurate your Wilt-Russell arguments.
One more time...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4229
"Now you can see Russell's "score" is more than twice that of Wilt,"
"Obviously this is just a fun exercise, and far from scientific, but you can still see that Chamberlain's teammates were in fact significantly less talented than Russell's, by both our Quality of Teammates metric and even by Bill Simmons' own ranking method. So I don't think it's quite fair to say, "let's never mention the supporting-cast card again with Russell and Chamberlain," because it's still pretty obvious that Wilt's supporting cast was inferior to Russell's by a good margin."
G.O.A.T
01-13-2011, 05:21 AM
One more time...
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=4229
Your post is a made up formula
Mine are real numbers of an established NBA measuring stick.
But good try.
Just like when Simmons makes up his own criteria and you laugh at it, well guess what my response is to the 17th time I see you posting that...
PHILA
01-13-2011, 06:02 AM
Speaking of Doug Colllins...how good could Raymond Lewis have been?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyQf_HUpKYw
Michael Cooper Versus Raymond Lewis:
In 1983, during a summer pro league game, it was NBA star Michael Cooper, against Raymond Lewis, the legend of the playgrounds. Raymond scored 56 points that night in only three quarters of play.
I hope you have lots of veggies for lunch.Good for the body.
Pettie as I said gets my HM with Milkan,CousySherman ect..
As well as Pettie numbers are look at Hayes as a "Rookie" he was selected a starter in the All Star game over Wilt.
I have never been sold on Pistol. Sure he could do it had made game but it never helped his team . I have read early in his career as a Hawk the old school guys didnt like him Like Lou Hudson.I love Iverson never saw a player play with so much heart but Pistol is a AI with less heart. Now Sam Jones I ask old heads they say him and Lenny Wilkins were all that.My father played against Lenny and he said he was crazy good. MY father played in Elgin's era so for him to say that lets you know how good Lenny must have been.
veggies??!! . . . . lmao
if it ain't burgers - chili cheese fries - pastrami quesedillas
hot dogs , tacos or chicken fried rice , , , i ain't havin it
probably the most unhealthiest cat you ever crossed
.
how can you say a guy with pettit's resume deserves
just an honorable mention . . . . dude was a beast
big e was aight with the b2b turnaround jumpers
don't want to downgrade y'boy - he could play
just wasn't athletic enough for my liking
shooting 42-44% doesn't help either
that's horrible for a guy playing
that close to the basket
pettit didn't shoot that much better a percentage
but he mostly played on the perimeter and was
one of the first big guys to actually shoot a
conventional jumpshot and , , was one of
the hardest working dudes to ever play
"bob made second effort a part of sports vocabulary"
- bill russell
coming out of college nobody thought he was good
enough to play in the league ,,, but he of course
proved them wrong (gotta love guys like that)
.
"pistol was good but it never helped his team"
that's because his teams were never that good
it's amazing how jordan never catches crap for
this but everybody else is held to it like velcro
pete's first year the best player on his team was
lou hudson and the best big man was a 10th
year walt bellamy . . . they won 36 games
basically this was his team first 4 years
was traded to the jazz in 75 and scored 1700 points
the next highest scorer was aaron james with 887
- you wanna hold this against him
ever heard of nate williams . . . i know , me neither
he was the 2nd leading scorer the following year
the year after that pete led L in scoring 31.1
the next guy , nate again with 974 points
never had a legit big man , never played with another
compelling player , , you can't hold this against him
those cats didn't like him because his skills were otherworldly
no , he wasn't the most unselfish guy in the world
but when you're the first of your kind
who is
.
were you aware that sam jones never made 1st all nba
Niquesports
01-13-2011, 03:06 PM
As far as Sam goes playing in a era of O n west hurt any chance he had.From my perspective Pistol nev er learned how to be ateam player.He was always the show. His father did,t help.If I was putting together a all fun toi see team Pistol would be on it.
GOAT
great stuff
i don't know much about those pre-shot clock guys you
mentioned but i'm with you on adding them to H M list
.
stockton (all time steals & assists leader) over pearl
i can see your argument there , but for me
pearl was just too much for this dude
ROY - avg 24 including 56 vs the lakers . . his
24ppg was 3rd highest rookie average in L H
scored nba record 13 points in a single OT
led bullets from worst to first in 68-69 season - - traded
to ny forming the "Rolls Royce" backcourt with frazier
became first backcourt combo to have 2 HOFers
and both players named to 50th Anniv. team
jersey retired by 2 teams - - even had an aba team
named after him . . . . . . . the baltimore pearls
stockton was good , , , very very good
pearl was GREAT
.
payton nash and kidd over tiny and dj
back to back finals appearances with a FMVP
3 rings total and the glue on those
celtic championship teams
"the best player i've ever played with"
- larry bird
"the best lead and defend guard of his era"
- NBA Enc.
one of the top postseason performers in L H
playoff heroics earned reputation as
"money player"
lenny wilkens replaced bill russell as sonics coach
traded slick watts and inserted dj at the point
along with gus wms , the team immediately
went on a 12 game winning streak and
finished 47-35 after a 5-17 start
took out previous year division champ lakers before
squandering 3-2 lead vs the bullets in 78 finals
led team back to the finals the following year
scored 32 in G4 OT and was named FMVP
lost to LA in WCF in 1980 was then traded to phoenix
and in his first year there led the suns to division
title over the defending champ lakers
traded to boston in 84 - hit buzzer beater in G4 of
finals in LA - celtics went on to win the title his
first year with the team . . . . . . coincidence
i think not
you might can sell me on those guys being over tiny
but no way would i ever take them over dennis
"clutch" personified . . . . . true winner
.
what has drexler or ai ever accomplished
and wade's lone title rivals duncan's 99 title as thee most
least impressive titles ever . . . there was no way in hell
stern was going to hand that trophy to cuban after
having to fine him like a million times that season
.
david thompson
"the most spectacular leaper and scorer in league
history . . . . . only Dr. J was more explosive"
- NBA Enc.
at one time the highest paid player in the history of
team sports . . . when dunking was outlawed in
college basketball he invented the 'alley-oop'
played in very last aba finals vs Dr. J , the most exciting series
in league's 9 year history , and possibly basketball period
scored 73 , the 3rd highest point total in L H , , led denver to
division title his first year avg 26 . . . #1 all star vote getter
shattered a backboard dunking over bill walton
#1 draft pick in both leagues in 75 , , signed a then record
4 million $ 5 year contract and in 1978 became the
first player named ASG MVP in both leagues
introduced into HOF by michael jordan
"david thompson was my role model as a young man
he was the guy i looked up to when i was your age"
- jordan to his campers
.
the guy you named that i can most agree with is dirk
he's sitting on like 22k points right now . . . if he
averages 25 over the next 4 years he hits 30k
at 32 years old he looks stronger than ever
.
as for lebron
i've never seen a guy with so little be revered so much
but these are the times we live in
.
disagree with you on doc and bird
but won't belabor the point
PHILA
01-13-2011, 04:06 PM
ow Sam Jones I ask old heads they say him and Lenny Wilkins were all that.
How about Hal Greer? Perhaps the most underrated guard to ever play.
'Entering his eleventh NBA season in 1968-69, Greer had already established himself as one of the deadliest middle-distance shooters in the league, averaging over 20 points a game and climbing to number six on the all-time scoring list with 15,244 points. In 1967-68, he had even managed to overtake the offensively explosive Wilt Chamberlain for the Philadelphia team lead in scoring with a gaudy 24.1 average. "He was one of the finest open-court shooters I ever saw, for he could race down court, stop on a dime twenty feet out on the dead run and bury the shot," teammate Chet Walker later admiringly wrote.
Greer accomplished these feats despite having to endure an array of nagging injuries that might have sidelined a lesser player. "Harold would have his ankles taped," Billy Cunningham later remembered. "Then he'd have a knee brace on and a thigh pad and another pad on his elbow. He never got the attention he deserved, and maybe that was because he was a quiet man who wouldn't sit in the locker room and tell the press how he performed. He let his performance speak for itself." Sometimes, however, his performance was so spectacular that even his unalluring personality could not diminish his on-court achievements. A case in point was the 1968 NBA All-Star Game when Greer went 8 for 8 from the field while scoring a record 19 points in the third quarter. He came away with the Most Valuable Player honors along with the deep respect of his peers. "Hal needs a certain amount of recognition to show people that he's on par with Robertson and West," All-Star teammate Wilt Chamberlain said afterward.
Greer needed no convincing himself. He knew he was the equal of any elite guard in the league, and that included Sam Jones of the Celtics. "He's on a team where they work for him," Greer said. "Our team is balanced. We're a team all the way. We don't work for one guy. Sam doesn't really have to work for his shots. They work for him. He's strictly offense, I'm offense plus I move the ball, too. I move on the fast break." Always intense and demanding of himself as a player, Greer strove for nothing short of basketball perfection in every contest. "After a game," he once revealed, "I think about the mistakes I made on defense that night. Sometimes I stay up all night thinking about defense, like after I've been chasing Oscar all over the court. That's enough to keep any man awake."'
Niquesports
01-13-2011, 04:08 PM
I my with you on DJ. And Tiny. Never understood why DJ is so underrated. A star on 3 different teams,with a different role on each. Tiny lead the league in scoring and Assist, that's more impressive than even Oscars tripple double then after injuries come to Boston and quterbacks them to a final. People have no problem Mchale in a Top list but DJ was as important and Tiny was more important than Mchle was in Boston's success.
G.O.A.T
01-13-2011, 04:14 PM
I my with you on DJ. And Tiny. Never understood why DJ is so underrated. A star on 3 different teams,with a different role on each. Tiny lead the league in scoring and Assist, that's more impressive than even Oscars tripple double then after injuries come to Boston and quterbacks them to a final. People have no problem Mchale in a Top list but DJ was as important and Tiny was more important than Mchle was in Boston's success.
I have to say you guys are really making me rethink the PG rankings.
Guys like Nash, Kidd and Payton just assembled such amazing resumes through having such long primes and long careers overall. It's hard to look at their individual resume next to Tiny and DJ and not favor the younger guys.
However when I ask myself the critical questions
1) Who was the better player?
2) Who's accomplishments are the most significant?
Other than Nash's two MVP's I think Tiny and DJ are the answer's to those questions.
The thing about Nash's MVP's is that while I don't think he deserved either, the fact that he was a worthy enough candidate to win the award twice says a lot. I hate to give him credit there, but I have to.
The other issue is that neither Archibald or Johnson had nearly as much team success as a #1 guy during their peak. If I keep them below that younger generation, ultimately that will be why.
Niquesports
01-13-2011, 09:53 PM
I have to say you guys are really making me rethink the PG rankings.
Guys like Nash, Kidd and Payton just assembled such amazing resumes through having such long primes and long careers overall. It's hard to look at their individual resume next to Tiny and DJ and not favor the younger guys.
However when I ask myself the critical questions
1) Who was the better player?
2) Who's accomplishments are the most significant?
Other than Nash's two MVP's I think Tiny and DJ are the answer's to those questions.
The thing about Nash's MVP's is that while I don't think he deserved either, the fact that he was a worthy enough candidate to win the award twice says a lot. I hate to give him credit there, but I have to.
The other issue is that neither Archibald or Johnson had nearly as much team success as a #1 guy during their peak. If I keep them below that younger generation, ultimately that will be why.
I have to respect you G.O.A.T. you are open to at least review yoour think if a point is made that you feel is valid.I don't think Tiny had the chance to have the team success that nash had.Injuries and bad teams prevented this.However Tiny did have much better team success than Nash as a No. 2.Also If you take Tiny's 72-73 Season is better than anything Nash has ever done.
Now for DJ for the most part most would believe he was the No 1 for Seattle thats a team that made 2 finals and won 1 and made a third WCF.There was a drop in his Suns days in overall play and team success,however once he came back to Boston he became a more of a pure PG and his Defense alone makes him better than Nash.Tiny gets his due often most have him in a top 10 - 15 PG so I'm kool he is in my top 10. However too often DJ is a forgotten Great which I can't understand. Not sure why the PG of the team some want to call the Greatest team ever doesnt get more credit.
But everyting is opinion based so as long as you are open to the thought I respect that.
Naiseesog
01-13-2011, 10:42 PM
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what do you think of the changes . . . got 49 guys
gilmore vs parish , ewing and d rob for last spot
who you got . . . . . . . i'm going with artis
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Top 50
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PG
1 magic ..... 5 frazier ..... 9 stock
2 oscar ...... 6 pearl ...... 10 kidd
3 isiah ....... 7 d j
4 cousy ..... 8 tiny
SG
1 jordan ..... 5 pistol ...... 9 greer
2 kobe ....... 6 david ..... 10 bing
3 west ...... 7 drexler
4 gervin ..... 8 iverson
C
1 kaj ........ 5 moses ....... 9 unseld
2 russ ...... 6 hakeem .... 10 walton
3 wilt ....... 7 reed
4 shaq ...... 8 cowens
PF
1 duncan ...... 5 mcadoo ..... 9 j lucas
2 barkley ...... 6 big e
3 karl ........... 7 mchale
4 pettit ........ 8 k g
SF
1 dr. j .......... 5 havcek ........ 9 billy c
1 bird ........... 6 pippen ....... 10 bking
3 baylor ........ 7 nique
4 barry ......... 8 worthy
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PG
billups , nash , payton , porter , gus , parker
penny , m r r , cheeks , price , randy
m jax , tim h , alvin , g'rich , kj
SG
wade , white , sjones , c scott , reggie , manu
ray , mitch , toney , westphal , davis
collins , moncrief , griffith , dumars
C
parish , dwight , ewing , d rob , nate , zo
issel , daugherty , dikembe , wallace , lanier
PF
dirk , gus j , bellamy , pau , amare , haywood
c webb , buck , lucas , rasheed , nance
SF
lebron , tmac , chet , deB , marques , mullin
g hill , rice , pierce , rodman , chambers
kemp , d ellis , cummings , vince
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.
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U H M - George Mikan
H H M - arizin , cooper , guerin , fulks , sharman , clifton , dolph
stokes , kerr , davies , neilston , lloyd , yardley and barksdale
I have to respect you G.O.A.T. you are open to at least review yoour think if a point is made that you feel is valid.I don't think Tiny had the chance to have the team success that nash had.Injuries and bad teams prevented this.However Tiny did have much better team success than Nash as a No. 2.Also If you take Tiny's 72-73 Season is better than anything Nash has ever done.
Now for DJ for the most part most would believe he was the No 1 for Seattle thats a team that made 2 finals and won 1 and made a third WCF.There was a drop in his Suns days in overall play and team success,however once he came back to Boston he became a more of a pure PG and his Defense alone makes him better than Nash.Tiny gets his due often most have him in a top 10 - 15 PG so I'm kool he is in my top 10. However too often DJ is a forgotten Great which I can't understand. Not sure why the PG of the team some want to call the Greatest team ever doesnt get more credit.
But everyting is opinion based so as long as you are open to the thought I respect that.
agree totally
i think you're both objective
i strive to be but sometimes fall short
How about Hal Greer? Perhaps the most underrated guard to ever play.
'Entering his eleventh NBA season in 1968-69, Greer had already established himself as one of the deadliest middle-distance shooters in the league, averaging over 20 points a game and climbing to number six on the all-time scoring list with 15,244 points. In 1967-68, he had even managed to overtake the offensively explosive Wilt Chamberlain for the Philadelphia team lead in scoring with a gaudy 24.1 average. "He was one of the finest open-court shooters I ever saw, for he could race down court, stop on a dime twenty feet out on the dead run and bury the shot," teammate Chet Walker later admiringly wrote.
Greer accomplished these feats despite having to endure an array of nagging injuries that might have sidelined a lesser player. "Harold would have his ankles taped," Billy Cunningham later remembered. "Then he'd have a knee brace on and a thigh pad and another pad on his elbow. He never got the attention he deserved, and maybe that was because he was a quiet man who wouldn't sit in the locker room and tell the press how he performed. He let his performance speak for itself." Sometimes, however, his performance was so spectacular that even his unalluring personality could not diminish his on-court achievements. A case in point was the 1968 NBA All-Star Game when Greer went 8 for 8 from the field while scoring a record 19 points in the third quarter. He came away with the Most Valuable Player honors along with the deep respect of his peers. "Hal needs a certain amount of recognition to show people that he's on par with Robertson and West," All-Star teammate Wilt Chamberlain said afterward.
Greer needed no convincing himself. He knew he was the equal of any elite guard in the league, and that included Sam Jones of the Celtics. "He's on a team where they work for him," Greer said. "Our team is balanced. We're a team all the way. We don't work for one guy. Sam doesn't really have to work for his shots. They work for him. He's strictly offense, I'm offense plus I move the ball, too. I move on the fast break." Always intense and demanding of himself as a player, Greer strove for nothing short of basketball perfection in every contest. "After a game," he once revealed, "I think about the mistakes I made on defense that night. Sometimes I stay up all night thinking about defense, like after I've been chasing Oscar all over the court. That's enough to keep any man awake."'
thanks for this post phila
Lebron23
03-12-2012, 02:01 PM
Billy Ray Bates (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xeGS6C-H1M&feature=player_embedded)
If you don't know who he is, know that his two nicknames were "Dunk" and "Black Superman"
Enjoy!
Billy Ray Bates was a legend here in our country. Ray Bates was the greatest player to ever played in the PBA. He has some attitude and drug related problems, but he was indeed a great athlete during his prime.
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