LeBron needs to lose weight

[Samurai Swoosh]

Yes, I said it.

And this isn't another excessive criticisms of LeBron that has been en-vogue since July 2010.

I'm saying it based off what I have seen this year, and after just having watched highlights of his from 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 (he really started bulking up more last year)

But he needs to lose some weight to regain some of his explosive quickness and leaping ability.

What's the point of him being as big as he is if he doesn't play in the post, doesn't rebound, and now due to his size and maybe age and mileage catching up to him (seeing as how he can't score and play diverse enough basketball with his skills to warrant being slower) can't blow by defenders with his first step?

His first step used to be lethal. Watching his game highlights up until last year, he would explode by people and rise up. I've noticed this year he's getting a little less higher on dunks, but the more noticeable thing to me is that he isn't just exploding by people anymore already at only 25 years old.

Against the Knicks and Wizards I saw him have to make extra moves with the ball that just a year or two ago he didn't have to in order to get by people. He wasn't exactly blowing by Gallinari, and Nick Young stayed in front of him fairly well too.

Does anyone else not think he needs to regain his explosiveness in order to be truly effective? I mean as of right now the Heat are ballin, and he's a great sidekick to what Wade has been doing. But I think with a little less weight, and more quickness and explosion, the Heat would be even more dangerous.

His body needs to be where it was at in 2007 and 2008, specifically. Right now he's built like Karl Malone, but trying to play like smooth, sleek, doberman-esque Scottie Pippen of the early to late 90's.

Anyone else agree?

[B-Low]

Losing the ego would take him down to about 230 or so. That's a start.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yes, I said it.

And this isn't another excessive criticisms of LeBron that has been en-vogue since July 2010.

I'm saying it based off what I have seen this year, and after just having watched highlights of his from 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 (he really started bulking up more last year)

But he needs to lose some weight to regain some of his explosive quickness and leaping ability.

What's the point of him being as big as he is if he doesn't play in the post, doesn't rebound, and now due to his size and maybe age and mileage catching up to him (seeing as how he can't score and play diverse enough basketball with his skills to warrant being slower) can't blow by defenders with his first step?

His first step used to be lethal. Watching his game highlights up until last year, he would explode by people and rise up. I've noticed this year he's getting a little less higher on dunks, but the more noticeable thing to me is that he isn't just exploding by people anymore already at only 25 years old.

Against the Knicks and Wizards I saw him have to make extra moves with the ball that just a year or two ago he didn't have to in order to get by people. He wasn't exactly blowing by Gallinari, and Nick Young stayed in front of him fairly well too.

Lebron's strength helps him finish with contact, he does this better than any perimeter player I've seen in a long time. He played his best basketball in 2009 and 2010 and he was already big. Being 6'8" and 265 or whatever he is with his ball handling skills and his athleticism(which is still great), is part of what makes him so tough to defend.


and he's a great sidekick to what Wade has been doing.

:facepalm

[StillKill24]

Losing the ego would take him down to about 230 or so. That's a start.
:lol

[LEFT4DEAD]

Yes, I said it.

And this isn't another excessive criticisms of LeBron that has been en-vogue since July 2010.

I'm saying it based off what I have seen this year, and after just having watched highlights of his from 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 (he really started bulking up more last year)

But he needs to lose some weight to regain some of his explosive quickness and leaping ability.

What's the point of him being as big as he is if he doesn't play in the post, doesn't rebound, and now due to his size and maybe age and mileage catching up to him (seeing as how he can't score and play diverse enough basketball with his skills to warrant being slower) can't blow by defenders with his first step?

His first step used to be lethal. Watching his game highlights up until last year, he would explode by people and rise up. I've noticed this year he's getting a little less higher on dunks, but the more noticeable thing to me is that he isn't just exploding by people anymore already at only 25 years old.

Against the Knicks and Wizards I saw him have to make extra moves with the ball that just a year or two ago he didn't have to in order to get by people. He wasn't exactly blowing by Gallinari, and Nick Young stayed in front of him fairly well too.

Does anyone else not think he needs to regain his explosiveness in order to be truly effective? I mean as of right now the Heat are ballin, and he's a great sidekick to what Wade has been doing. But I think with a little less weight, and more quickness and explosion, the Heat would be even more dangerous.

His body needs to be where it was at in 2007 and 2008, specifically. Right now he's built like Karl Malone, but trying to play like smooth, sleek, doberman-esque Scottie Pippen of the early to late 90's.

Anyone else agree?

Damn! For a moment I tought you were talking about some scrub who is getting 20 min per game and scoring 10 ppg and is in his 30's. :confusedshrug:

[CMsam]

Lebron's strength helps him finish with contact, he does this better than any perimeter player I've seen in a long time. He played his best basketball in 2009 and 2010 and he was already big. Being 6'8" and 265 or whatever he is with his ball handling skills and his athleticism(which is still great), is part of what makes him so tough to defend.



I think it's a fair question to ask if a leaner Lebron might be a bit more explosive. The guy is right that its not like Lebron bangs around in the post.

[ImmortalD24]

I think his weight is fine. Although, it does seem as though LeBron reached his peak in mid 2007.

[LA_Showtime]

He doesn't need to right now. He's playing fine. He'll probably shed some weight once his athleticism declines, though.

[TAZORAC]

Yes, I said it.

And this isn't another excessive criticisms of LeBron that has been en-vogue since July 2010.

I'm saying it based off what I have seen this year, and after just having watched highlights of his from 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 (he really started bulking up more last year)

But he needs to lose some weight to regain some of his explosive quickness and leaping ability.

What's the point of him being as big as he is if he doesn't play in the post, doesn't rebound, and now due to his size and maybe age and mileage catching up to him (seeing as how he can't score and play diverse enough basketball with his skills to warrant being slower) can't blow by defenders with his first step?

His first step used to be lethal. Watching his game highlights up until last year, he would explode by people and rise up. I've noticed this year he's getting a little less higher on dunks, but the more noticeable thing to me is that he isn't just exploding by people anymore already at only 25 years old.

Against the Knicks and Wizards I saw him have to make extra moves with the ball that just a year or two ago he didn't have to in order to get by people. He wasn't exactly blowing by Gallinari, and Nick Young stayed in front of him fairly well too.

Does anyone else not think he needs to regain his explosiveness in order to be truly effective? I mean as of right now the Heat are ballin, and he's a great sidekick to what Wade has been doing. But I think with a little less weight, and more quickness and explosion, the Heat would be even more dangerous.

His body needs to be where it was at in 2007 and 2008, specifically. Right now he's built like Karl Malone, but trying to play like smooth, sleek, doberman-esque Scottie Pippen of the early to late 90's.

Anyone else agree?

not at all, thats why he get's so many AND 1'S

[alenleomessi]

He is just fine

No homo

[Harrison_Barnes]

He is just fine

No homo

I agree with you.. although OP does make a good point.. I just believe that he will only need to start cutting weight when his athleticism really starts to decline.

Oh and by the way.. saying no homo makes you look like a homo. :lol

[ShaqAttack3234]

Strength in finishing at the rim doesn't come from physical size. At all. It takes strength, but more mental and skillful than it is brute strength. And like I said, he was still leaner in 2009 then he was in 2010.

You act like LeBron wasn't a great finisher pre 2010. He was still the game's most powerful finisher at the rim. He was still a diesel physique in 2006, 2007, 2008 and 2009. Now he's just bigger for no reason, and he is visibly slower off the dribble.

Playing devil's advocate what's the point in being "big" to finish at the rim (even though I told you that is moot) if he can't even get to the rim as regularly off the dribble as he used to because he's carrying excess weight?

People are so consumed with size, he was a smoother player in year's past than what I've seen from him this year. He needs to be quicker. He's not playing in the post where he's taking a lot of punishment.

I don't see that big of a difference in Lebron's physique between 2009 and 2010. And 2010 was Lebron's best or second best season, rivaled only by 2009 when he was still 260+ in 2009.

Regardless of whether Lebron wasn't as explosive athletically in 2010, he was still a much better player than he was in 2007 for example.


And yes, Wade has been their best player in the vast majority of their wins. They struggled mightily when he wasn't playing well, but viola ... what do you know, a huge winning streak occurs once Wade played himself into shape like he always does every season, garners player of the week award, and the Heat have been rolling ever since they have let Wade do more with the ball, and not worry about walking on toes of LeBron's and Bosh's games. Wade is the better player. He's also finally playing defense, and rebounding at a very nice rate for a 6'4 SG ...

So Wade gets a pass for playing like shit when they lose just because they win when he plays well?

Wade

Wins- 25.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 4.3 apg, 54 FG%, 2.7 TO
Losses- 18.7 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 3.9 apg, 34.2 FG%, 4.9 TO

Lebron

Wins- 23.9 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 7 apg, 49.7 FG%, 3.6 TO
Losses- 26 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 7.6 apg, 40.7 FG%, 4.4 TO

Wade may be better in wins, but we can't disregard his poor play in losses. I mean when you're shooting 34% and averaging 1 more turnover than assist, you're hurting the team.

At worst, Lebron and Wade are 1A/1B, but it's still too early to call either of them a sidekick, particularly Lebron who is leading the team in scoring and assists.

If either of them is a "sidekick" it's Wade, they've both been up and down this season, so it'll take a lot more than 29 games(games in which Wade hasn't even been better than Lebron in on average) for me to even call it reasonable to call Lebron a sidekick considering Lebron has been better since Wade's injury in 2007.

Isn't your whole argument against Kobe being called a sidekick in 2001 and 2002 that he was still an elite player? Well, that's a big double standard because Lebron and Wade are both elite players regardless of who is number 1 and number 2 on the team.

[evilmonkey]

LOL

[ace_gold_26]

Wow another lebron hater. I had enough of who is the sidekick its none both wade and lebron are superstars.

[knightfall88]

Wow another lebron hater. I had enough of who is the sidekick its none both wade and lebron are superstars.

and when the time comes, I bet both them are going to win the FMVP?

[Solid Snake]

What's the point of him being as big as he is if he doesn't play in the post, doesn't rebound, and now due to his size and maybe age and mileage catching up to him (seeing as how he can't score and play diverse enough basketball with his skills to warrant being slower) can't blow by defenders with his first step?

This is all that needs to be said.

[che guevara]

http://www.bittenandbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Lebron-James-Miami-Heat-Jersey.jpg


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2665/3797818367_557543bd12.jpg

He looks the same as he did in 2008.

[ginobli2311]

I actually do think lebron should lose a little weight. like 10 pounds or so. losing ten pounds would not decrease his strength or ability to get to the rim. it might allow him to get to the rim more often though.

i don't know why people are laughing at this. he looks slow and heavy out there at times.

and LOL at the idea that lebron is a sidekick to wade. they are nearly the exact same player and both are playing at almost the exact same level this year....although lebron has been slightly better overall and his defense has been better as well

i prefer wade to lebron, but its very very close and to call either of them a sidekick is retarded.

[nbacardDOTnet]

Losing the ego would take him down to about 230 or so. That's a start.

:oldlol:

[Indian guy]

Yes, I said it.

And this isn't another excessive criticisms of LeBron that has been en-vogue since July 2010.

I'm saying it based off what I have seen this year, and after just having watched highlights of his from 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2009 (he really started bulking up more last year)

But he needs to lose some weight to regain some of his explosive quickness and leaping ability.

What's the point of him being as big as he is if he doesn't play in the post, doesn't rebound, and now due to his size and maybe age and mileage catching up to him (seeing as how he can't score and play diverse enough basketball with his skills to warrant being slower) can't blow by defenders with his first step?

His first step used to be lethal. Watching his game highlights up until last year, he would explode by people and rise up. I've noticed this year he's getting a little less higher on dunks, but the more noticeable thing to me is that he isn't just exploding by people anymore already at only 25 years old.

Against the Knicks and Wizards I saw him have to make extra moves with the ball that just a year or two ago he didn't have to in order to get by people. He wasn't exactly blowing by Gallinari, and Nick Young stayed in front of him fairly well too.

Does anyone else not think he needs to regain his explosiveness in order to be truly effective? I mean as of right now the Heat are ballin, and he's a great sidekick to what Wade has been doing. But I think with a little less weight, and more quickness and explosion, the Heat would be even more dangerous.

His body needs to be where it was at in 2007 and 2008, specifically. Right now he's built like Karl Malone, but trying to play like smooth, sleek, doberman-esque Scottie Pippen of the early to late 90's.

Anyone else agree?

Accurate post with the exception of this
and he's a great sidekick to what Wade has been doing.

Really? :facepalm:. LeBron's been Miami's best player this season by EVERY statistical metric out there.

[50inchvertical]

I agree he seems a step slower (relative to his normal level which is still > 99.9% of the word) than in yr's past. He hasn't head an eye at rim level dunk this yr like in 2007 when he'd give us one of those a game.

He came into the league at 6'8 247 and 7%bf so it's not like he is ever going to be small and not have a physical advantage over whoever is guarding him.

Problem is, it seems to be legit lean mass and not fat, and losing muscle without it having an adverse affect on energy levels and overall health is tricky.

[Indian guy]

http://www.bittenandbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Lebron-James-Miami-Heat-Jersey.jpg


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2665/3797818367_557543bd12.jpg

He looks the same as he did in 2008.

I'm sure he weighs about the same, but problem is, he's getting older and can't continue relying on his freakish gifts. He may have had PG-like quickness before weighing 260+, but clearly doesn't anymore. He obviously needs to lose some weight to regain some of his old explosiveness. He looks SLOW this season and is entirely reliant on picks to get by his man.

[thejumpa]

I'm sure he weighs about the same, but problem is, he's getting older and can't continue relying on his freakish gifts. He may have had PG-like quickness before weighing 260+, but clearly doesn't anymore. He obviously needs to lose some weight to regain some of his old explosiveness. He looks SLOW this season and is entirely reliant on picks to get by his man.

Gettin older? Bro he's like 26. He's young. He'll be able to rely on his "freakish gifts" until he's in his 30's. Look at a guy like Jordan. Even when his body declined, he was still super athletic well into his 30's. As long as LeBron doesn't get seriously hurt and/or slack on diet or whatever, he'll be no different.

I don't see the point of losing weight now because A. He's playing the best ball of his life IMO and B. Miami is winning. Even if he's a step slower and not as athletic as he was last year(which I don't believe), he still has a crazy advantange over most players. His "freakish gifts" are still enough to get it done.

Also, just because you lose weight doesn't mean you will gain explosiveness or anything. As a matter of fact, it's usually the other way around.

[ginobli2311]

Gettin older? Bro he's like 26. He's young. He'll be able to rely on his "freakish gifts" until he's in his 30's. Look at a guy like Jordan. Even when his body declined, he was still super athletic well into his 30's. As long as LeBron doesn't get seriously hurt and/or slack on diet or whatever, he'll be no different.

I don't see the point of losing weight now because A. He's playing the best ball of his life IMO and B. Miami is winning. Even if he's a step slower and not as athletic as he was last year(which I don't believe), he still has a crazy advantange over most players. His "freakish gifts" are still enough to get it done.

Also, just because you lose weight doesn't mean you will gain explosiveness or anything. As a matter of fact, it's usually the other way around.

there is no reason for a perimeter player to be carrying around extra weight. you guys clearly have not watched all the heat games this year. lebron does not have the same lift or quickness he had last year.

yes, he still is quicker than 90% of the league and more athletic than 99.9% of the league. but that is not what we are saying.

if you have watched the games this year you would understand the idea of lebron shedding ten to fifteen pounds. i think it would help him.

he doesn't need the extra weight because he doesn't post up or play down low or anything. he needs to be able to get around guys and not charge into them.

[Profound]

Lebron is fine right now he looks slow because he isn't exactly playing with a team that plays with a lot of room on the offensive end(no matter how much they try), he will have to lose weight when he does get older not just because of quickness but all the weight he has may cause damage to his legs. I do agree that losing some weight wouldn't be too much to ask considering he rarely ever has to defend someone in the post nor does he post-up either, the added quickness could improve his ability to break down defenses but he already does that well so there's truly no need to drop his weight. Some positives to his weight are the fact that he can finish with contact and can use his bigger size to bully smaller defenders.

[LA KB24]

Are you guys serious?
Losing 10 pounds isn't going to help him become more explosive.

LeBron is fine.

[LA KB24]

Also, just because you lose weight doesn't mean you will gain explosiveness or anything. As a matter of fact, it's usually the other way around.
This.

[ginobli2311]

seems to be that the general consensus is that lebron losing ten pounds won't hurt him much and won't help him much.

my question:

why carry around the extra weight then?

[Nobler]

Samurai Swoosh this is perhaps the dumbest thing u have ever said. Lebron age and mileage catching up with him? :lol Dude's young man and his game is adapting to a new team. Everybody needs to get off dudes nutz and quit trying to put him under a microscope

[ginobli2311]

the premise of this thread is off. Lebron's first step off the dribble hasnt never really been super quick except for maybe his first 2 years in the league. What is elite is the speed after the first step.

right. which his even more reason to shed some pounds because his first step is noticeably slower than it was last year.

but that is not even the point. we aren't saying he's slowing down a ton or age has caught up with him. he's been nursing that shin injury and something else on his leg i think as well.

but look. do i think lebron would be better off losing 15 pounds? yes...i do. and its not an absurd stance.

i can only speak from personal experience. after high school i hit the weights big time in the summer before my first year playing ball in college. i went from 6'4 200 to 6'5 225. i played terrible early on for the first month and the trainer came to me and said....look...you've gotten stronger, but you have lost too much of your quickness to play the 2 and 3 for us. so i shed 15 pounds over the next month and actually got stronger while doing this (with the help of the trainer).

so i lost 15 pounds and actually got stronger and it really helped my quickness and explosiveness. the difference was noticeable. also, during my heavier times my legs constantly bothered me and i was always nursing some foot or quad injury. losing the weight helped me a ton.

im not saying the same will be true with lebron, but i honestly don't see how it could hurt him. so why not try it?

[ImmortalD24]

http://www.bittenandbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Lebron-James-Miami-Heat-Jersey.jpg


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2665/3797818367_557543bd12.jpg

He looks the same as he did in 2008. Ok.. and is this suppose to prove something?

[IGOTGAME]

right. which his even more reason to shed some pounds because his first step is noticeably slower than it was last year.

but that is not even the point. we aren't saying he's slowing down a ton or age has caught up with him. he's been nursing that shin injury and something else on his leg i think as well.

but look. do i think lebron would be better off losing 15 pounds? yes...i do. and its not an absurd stance.

i can only speak from personal experience. after high school i hate the weights big time in the summer before my first year playing ball in college. i went from 6'4 200 to 6'5 225. i played terrible early on for the first month and the trainer came to me and said....look...you've gotten stronger, but you have lost too much of your quickness to play the 2 and 3 for us. so i shed 15 pounds over the next month and actually got stronger while doing this (with the help of the trainer).

so i lost 15 pounds and actually got stronger and it really helped my quickness and explosiveness. the difference was noticeable. also, during my heavier times my legs constantly bothered me and i was always nursing some foot or quad injury. losing the weight helped me a ton.

im not saying the same will be true with lebron, but i honestly don't see how it could hurt him. so why not try it?

I actually re-read my post and deleted it because I realized that it would make sense for him to lose weight. He was a lot quicker and I think that quickness would be more helpful than bulk that he doesnt know how to use. Lebron physically should be able to shut down guys elite 3s and some power forwards. What is the use of that Bulk when you can't even switch off and guard Milsap

[thejumpa]

right. which his even more reason to shed some pounds because his first step is noticeably slower than it was last year.

but that is not even the point. we aren't saying he's slowing down a ton or age has caught up with him. he's been nursing that shin injury and something else on his leg i think as well.

but look. do i think lebron would be better off losing 15 pounds? yes...i do. and its not an absurd stance.

i can only speak from personal experience. after high school i hate the weights big time in the summer before my first year playing ball in college. i went from 6'4 200 to 6'5 225. i played terrible early on for the first month and the trainer came to me and said....look...you've gotten stronger, but you have lost too much of your quickness to play the 2 and 3 for us. so i shed 15 pounds over the next month and actually got stronger while doing this (with the help of the trainer).

so i lost 15 pounds and actually got stronger and it really helped my quickness and explosiveness. the difference was noticeable. also, during my heavier times my legs constantly bothered me and i was always nursing some foot or quad injury. losing the weight helped me a ton.

im not saying the same will be true with lebron, but i honestly don't see how it could hurt him. so why not try it?

That's your personal situation, though. You also probably aren't physically blessed like LeBron is. Plus, at the same time, I can give you my experience. Dropped 20 pounds in a cut and lost explosiveness. Gained the 20 back and gained explosivenes and lift. Everybody is different, man. You can't just be like "Oh LeBron looks slower so he needs to lose weight". You realize that all the early reports said he was he actually leaner and slimmer than he was last year right? Even if you don't believe that, where did he pack on 10-15 pounds of extra weight? I've watched just as many Heat games this year as you have(maybe even more) so you can't pull that card.

I'm just sayin...it's a new team, new offense, and like you said, he's been nursing a shin injury. His hops haven't gone anywhere and neither has his agility or quickness. Yall are acting like he's always had this capability to blow by people whenever he wants. I've never consistently seen that in his game and I've followed dude since he was in HS.

[IGOTGAME]

Yall are acting like he's always had this capability to blow by people whenever he wants. I've never consistently seen that in his game and I've followed dude since he was in HS.

thats waas my initial question. He was a lot quicker as a rookie but after that he never really blew by anyone with his first step. Even now Kobe has a quicker first step at age 32. It is just that Lebron is big and strong and picks up momentum so quickly that his second and third steps and very quick. I guess if he got back to 2008 shape he would be a lot better though imo. But even in 2008 he wasnt blowing by people like Wade nor is he susposed to. Lets not forget that he is 6"8

[thejumpa]

thats waas my initial question. He was a lot quicker as a rookie but after that he never really blew by anyone with his first step. Even now Kobe has a quicker first step at age 32. It is just that Lebron is big and strong and picks up momentum so quickly that his second and third steps and very quick. I guess if he got back to 2008 shape he would be a lot better though imo. But even in 2008 he wasnt blowing by people like Wade nor is he susposed to. Lets not forget that he is 6"8

Exactly. He's never been able to beat guys off the dribble like that. That's a light weight SGs game. Kobe,MJ,Wade,Ellis,Roy,etc. LeBron has quickness but not like that. He's naturally a big ass person who if just gifted. We can't expect him to play like a SG if he isn't.

[ginobli2311]

That's your personal situation, though. You also probably aren't physically blessed like LeBron is. Plus, at the same time, I can give you my experience. Dropped 20 pounds in a cut and lost explosiveness. Gained the 20 back and gained explosivenes and lift. Everybody is different, man. You can't just be like "Oh LeBron looks slower so he needs to lose weight". You realize that all the early reports said he was he actually leaner and slimmer than he was last year right? Even if you don't believe that, where did he pack on 10-15 pounds of extra weight? I've watched just as many Heat games this year as you have(maybe even more) so you can't pull that card.

I'm just sayin...it's a new team, new offense, and like you said, he's been nursing a shin injury. His hops haven't gone anywhere and neither has his agility or quickness. Yall are acting like he's always had this capability to blow by people whenever he wants. I've never consistently seen that in his game and I've followed dude since he was in HS.

ok.

and that is why i said in my post that just because it worked for me does not mean it would work for lebron or anyone else. no. i am no blessed like lebron. in fact i was a scrub. i was just giving you guys my experience.

i also never said he is heavier. i said he is a little slower and has lost a little lift. these are just facts. its obvious to anyone watching the games night in night out. does this mean he's overweight? no. there could be many other reasons for this including some nagging injuries that we know he's had early on.

my only point is that i don't see a downside to lebron shedding 10 to 15 pounds. if it doesn't work. so what? gain it back or leave it off so you put less pressure on your legs every night.

[LA_Showtime]

LeBron will eventually shed the weight, but I doubt he does it until he's 29 or 30. Kobe did the same thing. He lost weight before playing in the Olympics and he was noticeably more athletic the following year.

[thejumpa]

ok.

and that is why i said in my post that just because it worked for me does not mean it would work for lebron or anyone else. no. i am no blessed like lebron. in fact i was a scrub. i was just giving you guys my experience.

i also never said he is heavier. i said he is a little slower and has lost a little lift. these are just facts. its obvious to anyone watching the games night in night out. does this mean he's overweight? no. there could be many other reasons for this including some nagging injuries that we know he's had early on.

my only point is that i don't see a downside to lebron shedding 10 to 15 pounds. if it doesn't work. so what? gain it back or leave it off so you put less pressure on your legs every night.

Ok gotcha.

Let's be clear, though. You said he didn't have the same explosiveness or quickness this year that he did last year. You mentioned him having "extra weight" and needing to shed 10-15 pounds. If that's not implying that you think he's heavier then I don't know what is. You may not have literally said it but it seems like you were trying to imply it.

You are saying that he has lost lift and speed this year, right? Well we are gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. I have watched a lot of Miami games this year and have come to the conclusion that he's just taking it easy due to nagging injuries and a completely different role on the team. Gone are the days of him being the clear #1 option and having to give 100% every single night. They have offensive weapons. They are trying to learn how to play together. It's a completely different experience than what he has ever had from HS to now.

FWIW, I've said numerous times on this board that he needs to lose weight and develop his game more. I was talking about doing it at 30+ though. Not 26 in the middle of your prime.

[magnax1]

Attempts @ rims by year
11-4.6 (70%)
10-6.8 (73%)
09-6.6 (72%)
08-8 (71%)
07-6.9 (72%)
I see what Samurai Swoosh is saying, but I think more then anything he's just doesn't have a full team of spot up guys spacing the floor. Just think how many guys Cleveland had that were really good shooters.
As for Wade vs Lebron, Wade is playing better on offense and Lebron is doing better on defense, though Wade has closed the gap on defense this month. I find it odd that Wade is actually rebounding better though, because I never would've have thought that when lebron joined the team.

[ginobli2311]

Ok gotcha.

Let's be clear, though. You said he didn't have the same explosiveness or quickness this year that he did last year. You mentioned him having "extra weight" and needing to shed 10-15 pounds. If that's not implying that you think he's heavier then I don't know what is. You may not have literally said it but it seems like you were trying to imply it.

You are saying that he has lost lift and speed this year, right? Well we are gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. I have watched a lot of Miami games this year and have come to the conclusion that he's just taking it easy due to nagging injuries and a completely different role on the team. Gone are the days of him being the clear #1 option and having to give 100% every single night. They have offensive weapons. They are trying to learn how to play together. It's a completely different experience than what he has ever had from HS to now.

FWIW, I've said numerous times on this board that he needs to lose weight and develop his game more. I was talking about doing it at 30+ though. Not 26 in the middle of your prime.

ok.

i meant extra weight in terms of what i think his optimal weight should be....not compare to previous years.

we will just have to agree to disagree. i don't see the same quickness and explosiveness. could it be due to injuries? yes...just like i said in my previous post.

again. my question is simply what could it hurt for him to shed a little weight? i just don't see the downside and the potential upside is actually quite big.

again. why not try it if you are dealing with injuries and that is the only reason. i just don't see any reason why lebron needs to weigh this much for his game. it would be different if he was taking guys into the low post or defending guys on the low block. but he never does that.

so agree to disagree. i just don't see the downside.

[LA_Showtime]

Ok gotcha.

Let's be clear, though. You said he didn't have the same explosiveness or quickness this year that he did last year. You mentioned him having "extra weight" and needing to shed 10-15 pounds. If that's not implying that you think he's heavier then I don't know what is. You may not have literally said it but it seems like you were trying to imply it.

You are saying that he has lost lift and speed this year, right? Well we are gonna have to agree to disagree on that one. I have watched a lot of Miami games this year and have come to the conclusion that he's just taking it easy due to nagging injuries and a completely different role on the team. Gone are the days of him being the clear #1 option and having to give 100% every single night. They have offensive weapons. They are trying to learn how to play together. It's a completely different experience than what he has ever had from HS to now.

FWIW, I've said numerous times on this board that he needs to lose weight and develop his game more. I was talking about doing it at 30+ though. Not 26 in the middle of your prime.

You're fighting a losing battle my friend. With that idiot, it's always about technicalities.

[ginobli2311]

You're fighting a losing battle my friend. With that idiot, it's always about technicalities.

we are having a legit conversation. please leave.

[Nash]

So Wade gets a pass for playing like shit when they lose just because they win when he plays well?

Wade

Wins- 25.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 4.3 apg, 54 FG%, 2.7 TO
Losses- 18.7 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 3.9 apg, 34.2 FG%, 4.9 TO

Lebron

Wins- 23.9 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 7 apg, 49.7 FG%, 3.6 TO
Losses- 26 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 7.6 apg, 40.7 FG%, 4.4 TO

Wade may be better in wins, but we can't disregard his poor play in losses. I mean when you're shooting 34% and averaging 1 more turnover than assist, you're hurting the team.

At worst, Lebron and Wade are 1A/1B, but it's still too early to call either of them a sidekick, particularly Lebron who is leading the team in scoring and assists.

If either of them is a "sidekick" it's Wade, they've both been up and down this season, so it'll take a lot more than 29 games(games in which Wade hasn't even been better than Lebron in on average) for me to even call it reasonable to call Lebron a sidekick considering Lebron has been better since Wade's injury in 2007.

Isn't your whole argument against Kobe being called a sidekick in 2001 and 2002 that he was still an elite player? Well, that's a big double standard because Lebron and Wade are both elite players regardless of who is number 1 and number 2 on the team.
:applause: Now this is what I call a quality owning. That other guy was just saying stuff out of his ass.

[DuMa]

i dont think we'll see lebron in the post as much as we want to because his athleticism is still there..... lebron can play 3 positions well and he isnt likely to play the 4 until his team needs him to. with bosh, haslem, its looking like he wont need to for a while.

and i think lebron's weight cant be questioned. hes still one of the best athletes in the league and can blow by anyone with a running start.

[thejumpa]

again. why not try it if you are dealing with injuries and that is the only reason. i just don't see any reason why lebron needs to weigh this much for his game. it would be different if he was taking guys into the low post or defending guys on the low block. but he never does that.

so agree to disagree. i just don't see the downside.

If you don't see why LeBron needs the weight for his game now, then you never did. It couldn't have possibly started now. He's always been huge and was what..something like 240 in 2003? He's been over that magically 250 mark for a few years now. As for him not playing in the post or defending PFs in the post, you have a point I guess. On the flipside, he makes a living abusing the shit out of people when he goes to the rim. Lose weight and a part of his game takes a hit(unless he compensates by adding another consistent arsenal to his game). He's too young to worry about that though.

If yall are gonna say he needs to lose weight, have it be for legitimate reasons. To increase stamina and endurance is one. To say he doesn't have the quickness he did 7-8 months ago because of 10-15 pounds is ridiculous. Ginobili, I know you pointed to his possible injuries but Samurai didn't. I'm just trying to make sense of this all.

[magnax1]

So Wade gets a pass for playing like shit when they lose just because they win when he plays well?

Wade

Wins- 25.2 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 4.3 apg, 54 FG%, 2.7 TO
Losses- 18.7 ppg, 5.9 rpg, 3.9 apg, 34.2 FG%, 4.9 TO

Lebron

Wins- 23.9 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 7 apg, 49.7 FG%, 3.6 TO
Losses- 26 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 7.6 apg, 40.7 FG%, 4.4 TO

Wade may be better in wins, but we can't disregard his poor play in losses. I mean when you're shooting 34% and averaging 1 more turnover than assist, you're hurting the team.

At worst, Lebron and Wade are 1A/1B, but it's still too early to call either of them a sidekick, particularly Lebron who is leading the team in scoring and assists.

If either of them is a "sidekick" it's Wade, they've both been up and down this season, so it'll take a lot more than 29 games(games in which Wade hasn't even been better than Lebron in on average) for me to even call it reasonable to call Lebron a sidekick considering Lebron has been better since Wade's injury in 2007.

Isn't your whole argument against Kobe being called a sidekick in 2001 and 2002 that he was still an elite player? Well, that's a big double standard because Lebron and Wade are both elite players regardless of who is number 1 and number 2 on the team.
Those stats are way off because of Wade's early season injury. Also, I think a huge part of Wade playing like shit comes from Lebron trying to play his one man show. Every time Miami gets down he starts to revert back to the way he played in cleveland. Pound the ball out for 15 seconds, look for a shot and if he can't find one pass it off to a team mate with three seconds left on the shot. That's just not winning ball, and once he's stopped doing that these past ten games you
1-See wades stats go up
2-See them win
3-see Wade and Lebron gel a bit
I know it sounds like I'm just hating on Lebron, but it's just stupid to point out stats in a Wade Lebron kobe comparison when stats are really the smallest difference between the three. Lebron just hasn't played a winning style of basketball, hasn't picked up his play against good teams in the playoffs, and doesn't put every last drop of himself into games, where the other two do.

[RJChPD]

Those stats are way off because of Wade's early season injury. Also, I think a huge part of Wade playing like shit comes from Lebron trying to play his one man show. Every time Miami gets down he starts to revert back to the way he played in cleveland. Pound the ball out for 15 seconds, look for a shot and if he can't find one pass it off to a team mate with three seconds left on the shot. That's just not winning ball, and once he's stopped doing that these past ten games you
1-See wades stats go up
2-See them win
3-see Wade and Lebron gel a bit
I know it sounds like I'm just hating on Lebron, but it's just stupid to point out stats in a Wade Lebron kobe comparison when stats are really the smallest difference between the three. Lebron just hasn't played a winning style of basketball, hasn't picked up his play against good teams in the playoffs, and doesn't put every last drop of himself into games, where the other two do.
At least provide us with some evidence for this nonsense you just spewed. Especially the last few sentences.

[LA KB24]

That's your personal situation, though. You also probably aren't physically blessed like LeBron is. Plus, at the same time, I can give you my experience. Dropped 20 pounds in a cut and lost explosiveness. Gained the 20 back and gained explosivenes and lift. Everybody is different, man. You can't just be like "Oh LeBron looks slower so he needs to lose weight". You realize that all the early reports said he was he actually leaner and slimmer than he was last year right? Even if you don't believe that, where did he pack on 10-15 pounds of extra weight? I've watched just as many Heat games this year as you have(maybe even more) so you can't pull that card.

I'm just sayin...it's a new team, new offense, and like you said, he's been nursing a shin injury. His hops haven't gone anywhere and neither has his agility or quickness. Yall are acting like he's always had this capability to blow by people whenever he wants. I've never consistently seen that in his game and I've followed dude since he was in HS.

This. and everyone talking about how his first step declined or some shit. No it hasn't, it wasn't even that quick to begin with. Melo's was always way faster.

[magnax1]

At least provide us with some evidence for this nonsense you just spewed. Especially the last few sentences.
I used to have a link to lebron's playoff stats vs 50 win teams on my computer before I had to wipe it and reinstall windows. I'll try and find it, though I remember his scoring was only 25 ppg on low 40's % shooting. Definitely not what you'd expect from the best player in the league.
And you can't provide evidence for something that has to do nothing with stats. that was what the whole rant was just about, so I'm guessing you just didn't understand it.

[brantonli]

I wonder what path LeBron will take compared to all the other high school-to-NBA players. He is young, but at the same time he's also played more NBA years than other players of the same age, so that has to be factored in.

[Hulk Hogan]

I used to have a link to lebron's playoff stats vs 50 win teams on my computer before I had to wipe it and reinstall windows. I'll try and find it, though I remember his scoring was only 25 ppg on low 40's % shooting. Definitely not what you'd expect from the best player in the league.
And you can't provide evidence for something that has to do nothing with stats. that was what the whole rant was just about, so I'm guessing you just didn't understand it.

I checked it, He has only beaten one 50 win team in the playoffs throughout his whole career!

[madmax]

Those stats are way off because of Wade's early season injury. Also, I think a huge part of Wade playing like shit comes from Lebron trying to play his one man show. Every time Miami gets down he starts to revert back to the way he played in cleveland. Pound the ball out for 15 seconds, look for a shot and if he can't find one pass it off to a team mate with three seconds left on the shot. That's just not winning ball, and once he's stopped doing that these past ten games you
1-See wades stats go up
2-See them win
3-see Wade and Lebron gel a bit
I know it sounds like I'm just hating on Lebron, but it's just stupid to point out stats in a Wade Lebron kobe comparison when stats are really the smallest difference between the three. Lebron just hasn't played a winning style of basketball, hasn't picked up his play against good teams in the playoffs, and doesn't put every last drop of himself into games, where the other two do.
explain to me how do you figure that Lebron is the sole reason for Miami offensive woes? He is leading the team in points, assists and efficiency - 3 major statistical categories. That alone screams to me as a Nr.1 option on the team. The only thing Wade does better is shoot a bit more efficiently from the field (thanks to the defensive attention Lebron receives) and rebounds better (because of his role in the team I guess). And Wade tries to play the same "Wade ball" sometimes and hurts his team in a process if he's cold. Did you happen to miss all of his blown layups and drives at the start of the season, when he was struggling mightily? It's like you want to nickpick everything Lebron does and close your eyes to everything that Wade does. That's pure hating bro.:blah

[magnax1]

explain to me how do you figure that Lebron is the sole reason for Miami offensive woes? He is leading the team in points, assists and efficiency - 3 major statistical categories. That alone screams to me as a Nr.1 option on the team. The only thing Wade does better is shoot a bit more efficiently from the field (thanks to the defensive attention Lebron receives) and rebounds better (because of his role in the team I guess). And Wade tries to play the same "Wade ball" sometimes and hurts his team in a process if he's cold. Did you happen to miss all of his blown layups and drives at the start of the season, when he was struggling mightily? It's like you want to nickpick everything Lebron does and close your eyes to everything that Wade does. That's pure hating bro.:blah
He was, he fixed his problems, I said that. I don't mean to ignore Wade's problems. First month of the season he was playing like Shit on defense, didn't run the floor at all, and just wasn't playing like he cared. He's also fixed that since they've been playing a bit better too.
I was just reacting to what Shaqattack said, which I don't think is a fair analysis of Wade vs Lebron.
As for Wade shooting more efficiently then Lebron because of the attention lebron gains, that's 100% BS. Lebron has had 2 seasons above 49%, Wade has had 3.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I used to have a link to lebron's playoff stats vs 50 win teams on my computer before I had to wipe it and reinstall windows. I'll try and find it, though I remember his scoring was only 25 ppg on low 40's % shooting. Definitely not what you'd expect from the best player in the league.
And you can't provide evidence for something that has to do nothing with stats. that was what the whole rant was just about, so I'm guessing you just didn't understand it.

Wade hasn't done anything in the playoffs since 2006, he hasn't won a series since then and his playoff numbers since then have been worse than Lebron's.

Lebron was great in the 2009 playoffs.

In general, Lebron is at least as good of a scorer and a better passer. Wade may be a better mid-range shooter, but Lebron has more range and is better on long 2s and 3s. Both are unstoppable going to the basket, Wade has a better post game and Lebron is a better finisher.

I don't really see what makes Wade better. If you break down their games, he doesn't seem better, and the numbers don't suggest he is either.

You cited their winning streak, well here are both of their numbers in the 12 game winning streak

Lebron- 26.1 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 6.3 apg, 0.9 spg, 0.3 bpg, 3.4 TO, 51.6 FG%, 44.4 3P%, 73.2 FT%, 17.9 FGA, 1.7 3PM, 8.1 FTA
Wade- 26.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3 TO, 55 FG%, 46.2 3P%, 73.3 FT%, 17.4 FGA, 1 3PM, 8.8 FTA

Both have been great during the winning streak and both have had games where they've been clearly the best player on the floor during those games, and their stats for the streak are pretty close.

So 12 games where they've been equal does not make Lebron a sidekick when Lebron has been better since Wade went down with that injury in 2007 and he's been better for the majority of this season, whether that's because of injuries, I don't know, but I will guarantee this, Lebron will not be a sidekick at any point in the next few years.

Lebron has quickly gone from insanely hyped(though he deserved much of that hype with his historic level of play on the court), to underappreciated just because he's a clown with a big ego. I still don't think many people will realize how good this guy has been.

[magnax1]

Wade hasn't done anything in the playoffs since 2006, he hasn't won a series since then and his playoff numbers since then have been worse than Lebron's.
Wade was injured in 07, and 08, and had a team that Lebon wouldn't have done anything with either. Sort of a stupid critcism. Also, wade was the only player in the playoffs that was able to play up to his standards against the Celtics


Lebron was great in the 2009 playoffs.
One Season doesn't mean much, and even though he played well against Orlando, its hard to deny that a big part of his team going cold was because he held onto the ball to much.


In general, Lebron is at least as good of a scorer and a better passer. Wade may be a better mid-range shooter, but Lebron has more range and is better on long 2s and 3s. Both are unstoppable going to the basket, Wade has a better post game and Lebron is a better finisher.
Maybe Lebron is as good of a scorer in the fullcourt, but he's not near as good of a halfcourt scorer, which is why lebron usually struggles against good teams in the playoffs. He just isn't a skilled scorer, which can translate well into regular season stats, but doesn't translate the same way into the playoffs when the game is mostly limited to the halfcourt.
Also, Wade is a considerably better closer, which is another big advantage in the playoffs, when you get to play more close games against good teams.


I don't really see what makes Wade better. If you break down their games, he doesn't seem better, and the numbers don't suggest he is either.
I never said that he was better. So far, Wade's been better on offense, and Lebron has played better on defense.



Both have been great during the winning streak and both have had games where they've been clearly the best player on the floor during those games, and their stats for the streak are pretty close.
Agreed, I don't really think either one of them has been better this season. Before this season I'd take Wade, and I expect Wade to play better in the playoffs, but regular season it's close.


So 12 games where they've been equal does not make Lebron a sidekick when Lebron has been better since Wade went down with that injury in 2007 and he's been better for the majority of this season, whether that's because of injuries, I don't know, but I will guarantee this, Lebron will not be a sidekick at any point in the next few years.
I don't think either is a sidekick. Really they're both top 3 players, and I don't think you can shoehorn either into a sidekick roles because neither is that type of player. One of them is going to end up as the first option in the playoffs, but that still doesn't mean he's better then the other because there is a lot more to the game then scoring.


ebron has quickly gone from insanely hyped(though he deserved much of that hype with his historic level of play on the court), to underappreciated just because he's a clown with a big ego. I still don't think many people will realize how good this guy has been.
Well, I do think he's been overhyped. Like I've said, I've just never seen his play translate to wins against good team, even when he's had a talented team for two years. I think it's fair to attribute the 09 series against Orlando to coaching, but not against Boston. Nor can you attribute Lebron's terrible play in the finals, or any other series against good teams to anything but his inability to play like he does in the regular season in the playoffs.

[50inchvertical]

No credit for the defense of teams like the Spurs and Celtics?

[LA KB24]

No credit for the defense of teams like the Spurs and Celtics?
Wade shitted on the C's though. 59% shooting. :oldlol:

[RJChPD]

Wade hasn't done anything in the playoffs since 2006, he hasn't won a series since then and his playoff numbers since then have been worse than Lebron's.

Lebron was great in the 2009 playoffs.

In general, Lebron is at least as good of a scorer and a better passer. Wade may be a better mid-range shooter, but Lebron has more range and is better on long 2s and 3s. Both are unstoppable going to the basket, Wade has a better post game and Lebron is a better finisher.

I don't really see what makes Wade better. If you break down their games, he doesn't seem better, and the numbers don't suggest he is either.

You cited their winning streak, well here are both of their numbers in the 12 game winning streak

Lebron- 26.1 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 6.3 apg, 0.9 spg, 0.3 bpg, 3.4 TO, 51.6 FG%, 44.4 3P%, 73.2 FT%, 17.9 FGA, 1.7 3PM, 8.1 FTA
Wade- 26.6 ppg, 7.3 rpg, 4.3 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3 TO, 55 FG%, 46.2 3P%, 73.3 FT%, 17.4 FGA, 1 3PM, 8.8 FTA

Both have been great during the winning streak and both have had games where they've been clearly the best player on the floor during those games, and their stats for the streak are pretty close.

So 12 games where they've been equal does not make Lebron a sidekick when Lebron has been better since Wade went down with that injury in 2007 and he's been better for the majority of this season, whether that's because of injuries, I don't know, but I will guarantee this, Lebron will not be a sidekick at any point in the next few years.

Lebron has quickly gone from insanely hyped(though he deserved much of that hype with his historic level of play on the court), to underappreciated just because he's a clown with a big ego. I still don't think many people will realize how good this guy has been.

Very good post.. I really don't care for the comparisons between Lebron and Wade. They both need to be in top form for the heat to have a shot at winning anything. However some of the claims made by some of the Lebron haters are laughable at best. In their minds Lebron is just an average basketball player who is much more hype than anything. They often refuse to view his accomplishments to date with any sense of objectivity, so it's pointless to argue with them.

[T-bomb 25]

This. and everyone talking about how his first step declined or some shit. No it hasn't, it wasn't even that quick to begin with. Melo's was always way faster.Melo lost 20 pounds last year and his 1st step is as quick as anyones in the league,he is rebounding and finshing much better now,10 or 15 pounds wont hurt Lebron it will only help him.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wade was injured in 07, and 08, and had a team that Lebon wouldn't have done anything with either. Sort of a stupid critcism. Also, wade was the only player in the playoffs that was able to play up to his standards against the Celtics

One Season doesn't mean much, and even though he played well against Orlando, its hard to deny that a big part of his team going cold was because he held onto the ball to much.

Well, who else was going to do anything Mo Williams shot 37% and got enough shots, if you really look at that series, Lebron is what kept them in it, he wasn't the problem.

In game 1, the difference was Varejao not being able to get out to the 3 point line and Lewis hitting the game-winner. Lewis at the 4 was a problem for the Cavs all series, he also hit that 3 to send game 4 into OT, without either of those shots, it's a different series. And Lebron wasn't guarding Lewis that series.

More importantly, Howard absolutely abused Cleveland's frontline for 26/13/3 on 65% shooting including 10 points in OT in game 4 and a 40/14/4 game 6.

Lebron had some key turnovers late in game 4, iirc and didn't play well in game 6, but nobody is perfect, I'm not sure if you could've expected anything else, 38/8/8 on 49% shooting with a game-winner in game 2. And don't forget that Lebron seemed to dominate the first round and second rounds without breaking a sweat that year.

Lebron wouldn't have won a title with Wade's post-'06 teams, but it wouldn't surprise me if he got them to the second round. After all, he got the 2008 Cavs to the second round, that team was 0-7 without him and 45-30 with him. And I seriously doubt that Wade gets the '09 or '10 Cavs to 60+ wins, much less 66 like Lebron did in '09, could've been 67 too, and a record-tying 40-1 at home had Lebron and Cleveland's other key players played in that last game. Of course, Cleveland's 2010 record also could've been even better had Lebron not sat out some of those meaningless late season games.


Maybe Lebron is as good of a scorer in the fullcourt, but he's not near as good of a halfcourt scorer, which is why lebron usually struggles against good teams in the playoffs. He just isn't a skilled scorer, which can translate well into regular season stats, but doesn't translate the same way into the playoffs when the game is mostly limited to the halfcourt.
Also, Wade is a considerably better closer, which is another big advantage in the playoffs, when you get to play more close games against good teams.

Lebron's Cavs and now Heat, have played at a slow pace, Lebron is a good half court scorer and he is skilled.

Not this "closer" BS again, Wade is clutch, but Lebron has taken over numerous games in the 4th and hit many big shots himself.


I never said that he was better. So far, Wade's been better on offense, and Lebron has played better on defense.

Offense includes passing, so no, Wade hasn't been a better offensive player.


Agreed, I don't really think either one of them has been better this season. Before this season I'd take Wade, and I expect Wade to play better in the playoffs, but regular season it's close.

I think it's close this season as well, but I feel confident picking Lebron now and since '07.


I don't think either is a sidekick. Really they're both top 3 players, and I don't think you can shoehorn either into a sidekick roles because neither is that type of player. One of them is going to end up as the first option in the playoffs, but that still doesn't mean he's better then the other because there is a lot more to the game then scoring.

Agreed.


Well, I do think he's been overhyped. Like I've said, I've just never seen his play translate to wins against good team, even when he's had a talented team for two years. I think it's fair to attribute the 09 series against Orlando to coaching, but not against Boston. Nor can you attribute Lebron's terrible play in the finals, or any other series against good teams to anything but his inability to play like he does in the regular season in the playoffs.

Well, a few things, you're right, Orlando was partially coaching and just Orlando being a nightmare matchup for Cleveland with Lewis and Howard, though it's Brown's job to make adjustments and he didn't.

As far as Boston this season? I don't think he cared that much about the last 3 games, which obviously isn't an excuse.

And the finals in 2007? Well, I didn't think Lebron was THAT great back then, I was unimpressed by his jumper, which I thought was poor at the time and his subpar free throw shooting for his position, though of course, his athleticism, playmaking skills ect. were still elite. So I don't mean to say that 2007 Lebron wasn't a great player, but when I'm talking about Lebron being historically great, I'm not really talking about 2007 which I thought was a disappointing season for him until he broke out vs Detroit.

But Lebron has been much better the last couple of seasons than he was in 2007, his jumper has improved dramatically even though he's still streaky.

His 2008 series vs Boston was disappointing, IMO after such a great season, I think that series exposed his jumper again, but I saw a noticeable improvement in that after 2008.

[T-bomb 25]

^ No Lebron would'nt have taken these recent Heat teams to the 2nd round,its a miracle that Wade got them in the playoffs.The only playoff team as bad as the Heat was 1 of the Charlotte teams that Baron Davis took to the playoffs and 1 of the old Cavs teams that Terrell Brandon lead to the playoffs after they lost nearly a whole team and called up a bunch of CBA guys.:no:

[Z0mgZ0rs]

Damn! For a moment I tought you were talking about some scrub who is getting 20 min per game and scoring 10 ppg and is in his 30's. :confusedshrug:
I don't think a scrub would be a HoF though.

[magnax1]

Well, who else was going to do anything Mo Williams shot 37% and got enough shots, if you really look at that series, Lebron is what kept them in it, he wasn't the problem.
I said he played great, but I think a big part of his team going cold was him just holding onto the ball to much. Like what (supposedly, since I haven't really seen it) happened to Wilt vs Russel


In game 1, the difference was Varejao not being able to get out to the 3 point line and Lewis hitting the game-winner. Lewis at the 4 was a problem for the Cavs all series, he also hit that 3 to send game 4 into OT, without either of those shots, it's a different series. And Lebron wasn't guarding Lewis that series.
Yeah, and really that was Brown's fault. If he benched Illgauskas and put in Ben wallace more, they wouldn't be getting all those 3ptrs off pick and rolls, and Dwight wouldn't have dominated as much.


More importantly, Howard absolutely abused Cleveland's frontline for 26/13/3 on 65% shooting including 10 points in OT in game 4 and a 40/14/4 game 6.
Same thing. Brown Should've played Ben Wallace more.

Lebron had some key turnovers late in game 4, iirc and didn't play well in game 6, but nobody is perfect, I'm not sure if you could've expected anything else, 38/8/8 on 49% shooting with a game-winner in game 2. And don't forget that Lebron seemed to dominate the first round and second rounds without breaking a sweat that year.
Agreed. Though Lebron Always dominates the first round because he's playing a crappy team.


Lebron wouldn't have won a title with Wade's post-'06 teams, but it wouldn't surprise me if he got them to the second round. After all, he got the 2008 Cavs to the second round, that team was 0-7 without him and 45-30 with him. And I seriously doubt that Wade gets the '09 or '10 Cavs to 60+ wins, much less 66 like Lebron did in '09, could've been 67 too, and a record-tying 40-1 at home had Lebron and Cleveland's other key players played in that last game. Of course, Cleveland's 2010 record also could've been even better had Lebron not sat out some of those meaningless late season games.
Well, we just disagree. I don't think Lebron comes close to winning a title in 06 with Wade's team, and I'd expect the Cavs to go farther with Wade in 09 and 10 because he keeps it together against good teams.



Lebron's Cavs and now Heat, have played at a slow pace, Lebron is a good half court scorer and he is skilled.
Lebron is not, by any definition, a skilled scorer. He does two things well. Pull up 3 ptrs, and slashing. Other then that, what does he do?

Not this "closer" BS again, Wade is clutch, but Lebron has taken over numerous games in the 4th and hit many big shots himself.
Not really something you can argue about, but I don't remember Lebron taking over many games in the playoffs in the last five minutes effectively. He always does the stupid pound the ball and pass thing. Makes me want to smash my head against the TV


Offense includes passing, so no, Wade hasn't been a better offensive player.
Offense includes halfcourt scoring, so no, Lebron isn't the better offensive player.




Well, a few things, you're right, Orlando was partially coaching and just Orlando being a nightmare matchup for Cleveland with Lewis and Howard, though it's Brown's job to make adjustments and he didn't.

As far as Boston this season? I don't think he cared that much about the last 3 games, which obviously isn't an excuse.

And the finals in 2007? Well, I didn't think Lebron was THAT great back then, I was unimpressed by his jumper, which I thought was poor at the time and his subpar free throw shooting for his position, though of course, his athleticism, playmaking skills ect. were still elite. So I don't mean to say that 2007 Lebron wasn't a great player, but when I'm talking about Lebron being historically great, I'm not really talking about 2007 which I thought was a disappointing season for him until he broke out vs Detroit.

But Lebron has been much better the last couple of seasons than he was in 2007, his jumper has improved dramatically even though he's still streaky.

His 2008 series vs Boston was disappointing, IMO after such a great season, I think that series exposed his jumper again, but I saw a noticeable improvement in that after 2008.
And that series vs Boston is exactly what I'm talking about his halfcourt scoring. You pack it in, and he can't score and if he starts to dribble off the clock and get his team mates crappy shots then his team mates start to go cold and it's just downhill from there. Same thing has happened against boston in 10 too. He just isn't the type of player that can take over scoring in the playoffs, and hopefully he stops trying to this year, lets Wade take over scoring, play some great defense and be more of a passer in the halfcourt. I don't really want to seem like a Lebron hater, but when he regularly doesn't come through against 50+ win teams, and everyone continues to say that he's an amazing scorer, I have to point out that he just isn't a great halfcourt scorer.
Anyway, hopefully we can agree to disagree, because I'm tired of arguing with uber long posts.

[gts]

I have not read the whole thread, so what's the general consensus?
does leporky need to drop weight or not?

that was a joke but i'm still waiting for a lebron fan to come and make bad kobe retort.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Well, we just disagree. I don't think Lebron comes close to winning a title in 06 with Wade's team, and I'd expect the Cavs to go farther with Wade in 09 and 10 because he keeps it together against good teams.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that because there's no way to prove either of us right or wrong. As far as 2006? It's hard to say, personally, I think Wade benefitted from Shaq's presence(shot 44.7% in 21 games w/o him and 51.6% with him), but I'm not sure how well Lebron would co-exist with Shaq, so that's another thing I'm just guessing about. I believe I ranked Wade over Lebron in '05 and '06 when I did those top 25 lists, though.

On a side note, I think 2009 Wade was noticeably better than 2006 Wade, though. Improved mid-range game, became a decent 3 point shooter for the first time, stepped up his defense and I think his passing/playmaking improved even more. That's Wade's peak, IMO, quite easily in fact. With Lebron it's 2009 and 2010, both stand above his other seasons, and those may remain his peak seasons, same with Wade. Lebron was better in the 2010 regular season than 2009 regular season, but much better in the 2009 playoffs than the 2010 playoffs.


Lebron is not, by any definition, a skilled scorer. He does two things well. Pull up 3 ptrs, and slashing. Other then that, what does he do?

Never said he was versatile, but it takes skill to do that, and he excels at it to the point where he's been one of league's best and most dominant scorers.


Offense includes halfcourt scoring, so no, Lebron isn't the better offensive player.

Not sure where you get the idea that Lebron relies on transition opportunities, he's never played on a team that has ran much at all. That's why Barkley has been screaming for several years now that his team should run. He's dominant enough going to the basket in the halfcourt and a pretty good long 2 shooter and 3 point shooter who can go on hot streaks where he hits ridiculous shots and seems like he can't miss.


And that series vs Boston is exactly what I'm talking about his halfcourt scoring. You pack it in, and he can't score and if he starts to dribble off the clock and get his team mates crappy shots then his team mates start to go cold and it's just downhill from there. Same thing has happened against boston in 10 too. He just isn't the type of player that can take over scoring in the playoffs, and hopefully he stops trying to this year, lets Wade take over scoring, play some great defense and be more of a passer in the halfcourt. I don't really want to seem like a Lebron hater, but when he regularly doesn't come through against 50+ win teams, and everyone continues to say that he's an amazing scorer, I have to point out that he just isn't a great halfcourt scorer.

Well, again, I do think Lebron was a more flawed player in 2008, I thought 2009 was when he took his game to the next level, prior to that, I always said Kobe was better and that Lebron wasn't the best in the game, but in 2009 and last season, I thought Lebron had taken that next step and to me, was clearly the best in the game.

Regarding the 2010 series vs Boston, I don't think it was due to his inability to take over, but more the fact that he didn't care much. I think he quit on the Cavs, but this is also something we'll never know so no real sense debating it. I'm sure we both agree that he played like shit in the final 3 games regardless of the reason.


Anyway, hopefully we can agree to disagree, because I'm tired of arguing with uber long posts.

Fine with me, most of it is subjective anyway.

[lefthook00]

LeBron would be better off losing 10-15lbs. Not so he can be compared to everyone else in the league, but for himself. May not change much now but he might be able to extend his prime.

I think Wade needs to lose weight more than James. Just like 10 lbs. Just like with LeBron, might not change his speed much now but it will extend his prime.

[Jasper]

Bron lose weight :banghead:

how the heII would he become the first SF MVP to become the first converted PF MVP , and 5 years become the first converted Center (ben Wallace look alike ) to win a MVP in another year ....

yo < mad

-----------\ He's the Brett Favre of the NBA

[xv6brandon]

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs341.ash2/62160_1619078638055_1269060023_1659821_6537767_n.j pg

[Swaggin916]

He could lose 10 pounds and have virtually the same body control he does now. It's not as much about strength as it as balance and body control. Right now he has more weight to throw around so it's that much harder to knock him off stride, but no matter what he weighs he is going to be hard to knock off stride because he has excellent balance and body control (like a RB who breaks a lot of tackles).

I think he should lose some weight... only a matter of time before it gets to his knees.

[2LeTTeRS]

I agree with you.. although OP does make a good point.. I just believe that he will only need to start cutting weight when his athleticism really starts to decline.

I disagree. Once his athleticism declines his strength will be his biggest asset. He'll just need to develop his post game. In the upcoming years expect him to spend a summer with Hakeem like Kobe and Dwight did.

[Pinkhearts]

Meh he just looks slower because he's playing beside wade now. You know Wade...one of the fastest and most athletic players in the league?

[evilmonkey]

Wait a minute, did i actually hear somebody say Lebron looks slower and less athletic???????????? hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaahahaahahhaahahahahahahhaahahahahahahahahahah hahahahahahahahahahahahahhaha

dude came in weighing in at 240 lbs when he was 18-19........ now he only added only 20 LBS more muscle, explosiveness and shit...... he aint lost shit, he is faster, jumps higher and everything............ lmao....

He is built like a tank, like the hulk, but moves like any PG.......

For Lebron to lose WEIGHT..... means you want him to lose MUSCLE/EXPLOSIVENESS/STRENGTH...........

There is nothing else to lose......... he got only 6% body fat............. if he lose that then he will die??? LOL

[Da KO King]

I don't think LeBron's problem is weight. I think it is a mental thing. The looming free agency and eventual departure of last season and playing on the Heat this season has worn on him.

LeBron is/was a guy that LOVES the camaraderie of being on a team. My school principal friend says it is common in people that grown up an only child. Some become loners while others thrive on a family type bond with others their age.

The Heat just don't have that chemistry. It is totally business with that team. There is no joy on that team. No one seems to trust each other.

[ginobli2311]

That was last year in Jan / Feb area of 2010.

He has noticeably slower blow by speed.

He just isn't beating people off one move off the dribble like I've seen of him in the past.

It just isn't there. For those who know what they are watching, it's quite clear actually. LeBron is moving around much slower out there.

Yes he can still jump, but I haven't seen him get near as high as he used to on his dunks.

Then I look at how thick and big he is and I'm like ... why? Lose 10 to 15 lbs, you're still built strong, you still have fantastic body control to finish at the rim, the loss of that weight would allow him to be quicker and more explosive again.


just give up man. these people have not watched every game like we have. its obvious they haven't. the fact that we have to debate whether or not lebron looks slower is evidence of this. its a fact. whether its due to injuries or something else does not matter. Lebron has less quickness and lift so far this year than he's had at any point in his career.

does this mean its directly related to his weight? nope. it does not. like we have been saying. what samurai and i are saying is that why not lose some weight regardless? if he's dealing with nagging injuries it will help. what is the downside to losing the weight? damn you people are so dense.

[madmax]

Enough with quickness, speed, hops there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3ownfiRLqI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDDcoQXt09E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Amq1SEXKpHo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlMReWDQUKo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BudrR5tdhs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_TapNgp_rQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-C_FTWCKXg

Its a new uniform, so it will take time to beat his 7 years of highlights from Cleveland............
:applause: :applause: :lol These Lebron hating dudes make me LOL everytime - now he's apparently declining athletically and "can't blow by people anymore":facepalm They don't seem to understand that playing with a completely new team and much superior teammates than he had back in Cleveland took it's toll on his stats and approach to the game - he spends most of his time setting up his teammates now and only attacks when the situation requires so or he has a chip on his shoulder. Yet he still leads his team in points, assists and efficiency...****** please

[Indian guy]

Lebron has less quickness and lift so far this year than he's had at any point in his career.

He was worse the first couple of months of last season, only to magically become his old self after that. I'm hoping for a similar miracle this season.

[ginobli2311]

:applause: :applause: :lol These Lebron hating dudes make me LOL everytime - now he's apparently declining athletically and "can't blow by people anymore":facepalm They don't seem to understand that playing with a completely new team and much superior teammates than he had back in Cleveland took it's toll on his stats and approach to the game - he spends most of his time setting up his teammates now and only attacks when the situation requires so or he has a chip on his shoulder. Yet he still leads his team in points, assists and efficiency...****** please

dude. you aren't even comprehending the conversation.

LOL at the idea of calling me a Lebron hater. seriously. you have absolutely no idea what you are even talking about.

[ronniec]

Losing the ego would take him down to about 230 or so. That's a start.

exactly

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[305Baller]

I want to see LeBron hook Wade up with some nice alleys. But Bron is playing strong.

[thejumpa]

just give up man. these people have not watched every game like we have. its obvious they haven't. the fact that we have to debate whether or not lebron looks slower is evidence of this. its a fact. whether its due to injuries or something else does not matter. Lebron has less quickness and lift so far this year than he's had at any point in his career.

does this mean its directly related to his weight? nope. it does not. like we have been saying. what samurai and i are saying is that why not lose some weight regardless? if he's dealing with nagging injuries it will help. what is the downside to losing the weight? damn you people are so dense.

The downside to losing weight is possibily losing strength, speed, and energy. Just because you lose 10-15 pounds doesn't mean you are going to somehow gain your explosivenes and quickness back. You ever been around football players when they are training? During the process of gaining weight, they also gain better agility, vertical leap, and quickness.

And again, there is no need to say some shit like "You haven't watched all the games". That's just some arrogant asshole BS. Also, you are wrong because I have watched most of the games. I've seen him dunk or whatever. Lots of other posters on here have as well. It's the ****ing Miami Heat---everybody watches them. It's not a fact that he looks slower and it's definitely not a fact that he can't jump as high. What is a fact, however, is that the team he plays for now is something he's never seen or been apart of. We are 30 games and he is only 26 years old. You vertical isn't going to drop 3-4 inches over the court of 7 months or so if you are that young and don't get fat or something extreme. I've been around a lot of athletes and never saw that happen. Not only that, but most of them weren't as physically gifted as LeBron is.

[Pointguard]

:applause: :applause: :lol These Lebron hating dudes make me LOL everytime - now he's apparently declining athletically and "can't blow by people anymore":facepalm They don't seem to understand that playing with a completely new team and much superior teammates than he had back in Cleveland took it's toll on his stats and approach to the game - he spends most of his time setting up his teammates now and only attacks when the situation requires so or he has a chip on his shoulder. Yet he still leads his team in points, assists and efficiency...****** please

In Clevelend they knew how to get out of his way... When Miller comes back it will open things up some. I think more teams just pack it in on Miami now and it makes it easier to get infront of him in the half court. Plus - he's thinking more trying to figure out how to get everybody incorporated.

[305Baller]

I will say this, he seems to be going hard at shorter intervals, he may be saving energy like this.

[catch24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53_mjZjJOuI - yeah he clearly lost his athleticism :oldlol:

To be honest, I think he's just conserving energy for the playoffs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's 26, STILL young, etc., but he looked gassed a couple of those games vs. Boston last year (same with Wade two seasons ago where, like LBJ, pretty much dragged MIA to the playoffs and played ATL). Look at his demeanor and attitude on the floor. LeBron doesn't care what happens in the regular season; he's itching for the postseason to start.

[catch24]

Touche ...

Haha, my comment wasn't really directed towards you, more so everyone in this thread talking about LBJ declining noticeably and quickly. Just doesn't make sense.

I'm telling you bro, we will see some of those ferocious dunks and the freak speed when the playoffs come around. Looks like he is coasting, playing just to play (with the exception of a couple games where he's gone off). Dude has a lot to prove where/when it matters, understandably.

[Da KO King]

You think that stress is the reason he's physically slower on the court?
He's not physically slower. He's simply not as into as he was in the past.

I was at the game against the Wizards on Saturday and thats when I realized it. LeBron is not enjoying basketball right now. It's sad because he's a once in a lifetime talent when he does where as he's "just" really good when he doesn't.

Literally the only time he seemed genuinely to enjoy being on the floor Saturday was when the Heat pulled out the win. It was a December 18th win against a lottery team and he was trying to celebrate the win like it was a playoff victory.

[Replay32]

I agree. Lebron does need to lose some weight. Maybe 15-20 pounds. Especially if he's 260 like he claims playing SF. I've been thinking this for the last 2-3 years.

He can loose wait and keep his strength. I think losing weight will help his game. Which is a scary thought. LOL.

[barbaroi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53_mjZjJOuI - yeah he clearly lost his athleticism :oldlol:

To be honest, I think he's just conserving energy for the playoffs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's 26, STILL young, etc., but he looked gassed a couple of those games vs. Boston last year (same with Wade two seasons ago where, like LBJ, pretty much dragged MIA to the playoffs and played ATL). Look at his demeanor and attitude on the floor. LeBron doesn't care what happens in the regular season; he's itching for the postseason to start.
You don't start conserving energy for the playoffs in December. A couple weeks before the playoffs, sure. 5 months before the playoffs? Nope.

[Go Getter]

You don't start conserving energy for the playoffs in December. A couple weeks before the playoffs, sure. 5 months before the playoffs? Nope.


You do when you've been gassed in the playoffs for the past 3 years.

The Bulls would take any and every opportunity to rest Michael's knees and Scottie's back....at some point, rings are all that matters.

[Indian guy]

You do when you've been gassed in the playoffs for the past 3 years.


Maybe a bit last postseason, but LeBron had zilch issues of fatigue in '08 and '09. Besides, what 25 year old starts conserving energy in December while surrounded by Wade and Bosh?

The only silver lining here about LeBron looking so....lethargic physically is that he looked WORSE during the same period last season. And I bitched about it non-stop. He couldn't even jump from October to December last season(look up his game-to-game highlights if you don't believe me). At least this season you'll occasionally see him pull off a great dunk. He couldn't even do that last season until returning to his old high-flying, quick self completely by January. It was weird to say the least. Let's see how this year's LeBron looks come January. I don't have high hopes.

[B-Easy]

Lebron's consistency has spoiled people ....its just a terrible game against Dallas, it has nothing to do with weight or desire...

Hell be back to his usual self...Lebron has 1 bad game a month which is a pretty good rate.

[FindingTim]

I completely agree. Lebron's quickness and leaping ability have declined. He plays great above the rim and needs these advantages to be at his very best.

Plus doesn't muscle bulk decrease flexibility? in basketball flexibility seems pretty important..

[sh0wtime]

The only ones who need to lose weight is you fat fuks....... sad bastards.....

So this is the man someone compared me to? I can truly see the striking resemblance, really. :rolleyes: As far as Lebrons weight goes i agree to some extent Samurai Swoosh, i dont think he has lost his athleticism to any kindof degree, but i think due to the extra muscle naturally you lose somewhat of your conditioning which allows you to use you athleticism for a longer period of time during the games. Then i think he just doesnt need that much power anyways playing so much on the perimeter, especially as a point-forward.