It seems like Dirk had a bad game... [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

50inchvertical

12-14-2010, 01:50 AM

20 pt lead! Holy shit, wow. So why was Terry in the game...?

How do they expect to catch up to the Spurs if they are going at home to lose to a mediocre team?
In the 2nd half too, not over the court of the entire game. Terry was getting buckets, hit a big 3 out of the corner, was getting destroyed on D when he was in the game though

Barea came in the game, just over penetrated and got his shots blocked as usual

When Dirk got on unstoppable mode, he kind of negated it by picking up a tech and blowing the defensive possession at the same time because Dooling was running up his back while he was yelling at the official. The Bucks also went to hack a Haywood fouling Haywood off the ball and Brendan missed the fts

brooks_thompson

12-14-2010, 01:56 AM

seriously, if team record is going to be a major determinant of mvp, then it's dirk (as long as the mavs keep a 60-win pace). to this point, it has to be dirk or dwight howard

DirkNowitzki41

12-14-2010, 02:09 AM

DirkNo-"ring"-ski had a good game. I guess but anyway I think his team had a bad game. See this mavs team will go no where in the playoffs when you see Dirk jacking up a 100 shots per game and missing his final one to tie the game. Hottest teams list now is ????
1st spurs
2nd mavs
3rd will be Ny or most likely "espns" favorite the miami heat

Talk about overreacting. :oldlol:

thomaspynchon

12-14-2010, 02:19 AM

In the 2nd half too, not over the court of the entire game. Terry was getting buckets, hit a big 3 out of the corner, was getting destroyed on D when he was in the game though

Barea came in the game, just over penetrated and got his shots blocked as usual

When Dirk got on unstoppable mode, he kind of negated it by picking up a tech and blowing the defensive possession at the same time because Dooling was running up his back while he was yelling at the official. The Bucks also went to hack a Haywood fouling Haywood off the ball and Brendan missed the fts

Holy shit! Hack a Haywood! Was Chandler in foul trouble? Anyways, that's pretty funny...looking forward to Beaubois returning and terry and barea's minutes being reduced...

Jacks3

12-14-2010, 02:34 AM

Dirk=Top 20 ever.

O_City_Thunder

12-14-2010, 02:57 AM

DirkNo-"ring"-ski had a good game.
:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

airchibundo507

12-14-2010, 03:01 AM

lol at joyner trying to regain respectability on the board by giving westbrook and dirk their own threads in the last week. like you really give a damn about them. you fantasize about durant and nothing else. :lol

theguy was literally slamming westbrook 2-3 weeks ago. now you expect me to believe you think he is as good as rose?

PurpleChuck

12-14-2010, 03:03 AM

kentatm

12-14-2010, 03:45 AM

In the 2nd half too, not over the court of the entire game. \

once again, the Mavs never had a 20 point lead in the second half. Their biggest lead was 9 when the 3rd started.

Master splitter

12-14-2010, 01:42 PM

Talk about overreacting. :oldlol:
Yeah I say the same thing about the overreacting about your team year after year lol relax, I'm just making fun of the mavs.

Jan95

12-14-2010, 02:00 PM

Really bad game for Dirk... but still amazing. :lol

PrimeJohnnyDepp

12-14-2010, 02:43 PM

Too many German David Hasselhoff fans around here to really know for sure how great Nowitzki is.

I mean, guy posts this bear salute :cheers: and you just don't know. You go on thinking it might have been, or it might not have been a David Hasselhoff fan.

When some ghetto negro will toast to Nowitzki we will know how good he is, but untill then, it's anybody's guess.

FF1

12-14-2010, 04:26 PM

It seems like Dirk is getting more love this season than he ever did during his finals run or MVP season. Not that I'm complaining :)

I just hope people can appreciate him for the greatness he brought rather than focus only on the fact that he has no rings. People seem to be able to with Malone and Barkley so I have hope.

creepingdeath

12-14-2010, 05:08 PM

No worries, after winning his second MVP and finally getting a ring, people will acknowledge his greatness. :pimp:

FF1

12-14-2010, 05:09 PM

No worries, after winning his second MVP and finally getting a ring, people will acknowledge his greatness. :pimp:

+rep :cheers:

I sure hope so, man.

Showtime

12-14-2010, 06:04 PM

What were his second half numbers?

creepingdeath

12-14-2010, 06:14 PM

What were his second half numbers?
Oh, right on cue. :applause:

Do they matter? What if I show you the second half numbers of his games against Utah and the 11 opponents before that? You wouldn't concede him having elite games (as in "franchise player numbers") anyway, kinda unfair to have it only one way.

Locked_Up_Tonight

12-14-2010, 06:21 PM

What were his second half numbers?

15 points
5-9 FG
4 rebounds
2 assists

Showtime

12-14-2010, 06:23 PM

Oh, right on cue. :applause:

I didn't start this discussion. Somebody else did. The OP was sarcastic about Dirk having a bad game despite having a great boxscore, so I was simply asking what he did in the second half as the buck were taking back the game, because I didn't see this one.

Do they matter?

Yes, according to the OP's point. He was trying to say, through sarcasm, that Dirk had a fantastic game based only on a boxscore total. I was asking what he did for his team when the bucks were coming back in the second half, which actually impacts the game, which is more important than a boxscore.

What if I show you the second half numbers of his games against Utah and the 11 opponents before that? You wouldn't concede him having elite games (as in "franchise player numbers") anyway, kinda unfair to have it only one way.
If Dirk helps his team win games, then fine. But this thread wasn't about those games. This was a thread specifically created to give Dirk props on his boxscore totals and crowning it a great performance. I didn't start that discussion, he did. I was simply asking what he did when the game was tightening up, because nobody should judge a player's impact entirely through a boxscore.

creepingdeath

12-14-2010, 06:40 PM

I didn't start this discussion. Somebody else did. The OP was sarcastic about Dirk having a bad game despite having a great boxscore, so I was simply asking what he did in the second half as the buck were taking back the game, because I didn't see this one.

Oh, don't act as if you didn't have an agenda. You had not answered some other posters' questions in another thread, actually didn't participate in any Mavs-related discussion for a certain time at all and right when the winning streak ends you're back again. Coincidence?

Yes, according to the OP's point. He was trying to say, through sarcasm, that Dirk had a fantastic game based only on a boxscore total. I was asking what he did for his team when the bucks were coming back in the second half, which actually impacts the game, which is more important than a boxscore.
Dirk did have a very good game. He missed a tough shot, that would've tied the game with 11 seconds to go, though.

If Dirk helps his team win games, then fine. But this thread wasn't about those games. This was a thread specifically created to give Dirk props on his boxscore totals and crowning it a great performance. I didn't start that discussion, he did. I was simply asking what he did when the game was tightening up, because nobody should judge a player's impact entirely through a boxscore.
Funny, coming from someone who switches back and forth from bashing on Dirk by sometimes looking solely on his stats, ignoring the actual game, and sometimes doing the exact opposite thing. Also, you seem to have the habit of disappearing when Nowitzki has had a great game (whether on the statsheet or on court).

Showtime

12-14-2010, 06:53 PM

Oh, don't act as if you didn't have an agenda. You had not answered some other posters' questions in another thread, actually didn't participate in any Mavs-related discussion for a certain time at all and right when the winning streak ends you're back again. Coincidence?

What? I didn't avoid Mavericks discussions during a win streak. I just don't pop into every single dallas jerkfest thread and say something on games I don't watch. I made a gamethread for the kings game, and talked about the two hornets games as well because I watched those. Caught a few minutes of them against the warriors and heat.

Funny, coming from someone who switches back and forth from bashing on Dirk by sometimes looking solely on his stats,

I've never bashed Dirk based only on stats. I've made observations about his game, and when attacked, I used some stats to back up my observations and opinions about his game.

ignoring the actual game,
and sometimes doing the exact opposite thing.

False. Any opinion I have about Dirk is based on what I have seen of Dirk over his entire career.

Also, you seem to have the habit of disappearing when Nowitzki has had a great game (whether on the statsheet or on court).
WTF does this mean? I'm not on ISH 24/7. It's not like I'm logged in all the time posting and then when Dirk plays, I log off. :rolleyes:

Yung D-Will

12-14-2010, 08:09 PM

People actually implied that Gasol was better than Dirk :roll:

PowerGlove

12-14-2010, 10:43 PM

LOL @ dirk being top 20/25/30/35/40.

Showtime

12-14-2010, 10:44 PM

People actually implied that Gasol was better than Dirk :roll:
He is.

DavisEverLOL

12-14-2010, 10:51 PM

That is basically what happens when you are insanely under appreciated.

All International players aside from Ginobili get a ton of hate they don't deserve. I'm talking about guys like Bogut, Nash, Yao, Dirk, etc, etc. list continues.

FF1

12-15-2010, 12:14 AM

He is.

0-4 = Gasol as the man

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 12:20 AM

He is.

At what? Gasol is crying about playing too many minutes while Dirk never gets rest and never complains.

YouCallILose

12-15-2010, 01:48 AM

LOL @ dirk being top 20/25/30/35/40.

Uh he's got an MVP, 6X all nba first teamer, 11 time all star, and he has a good 4-5 seasons left. He's going to finish with around 30k points and 13-14 all star appearances..he's top 40 EASILY, maybe top 25. With a title and another MVP he probably ends up top 15-18

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 01:55 AM

Uh he's got an MVP, 6X all nba first teamer, 11 time all star, and he has a good 4-5 seasons left. He's going to finish with around 30k points and 13-14 all star appearances..he's top 40 EASILY, maybe top 25. With a title and another MVP he probably ends up top 15-18
:facepalm

Mr Know It All

12-15-2010, 02:09 AM

:facepalm

This is your response to most thread starters or simple posts and points in said threads. You think it makes you look clever, but you just come off as a moron who can't refute a damn thing because you're too lazy.

Dave3

12-15-2010, 02:13 AM

This is your response to most thread starters or simple posts and points in said threads. You think it makes you look clever, but you just come off as a moron who can't refute a damn thing because you're too lazy.
Kind of agree with this (except for the insults part). Why not just give a direct answer phoenix? Dirk has single handedly turned around an entire franchise, turning a losing team into a contender/almost contender every year he's been there...

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 02:13 AM

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 02:15 AM

Kind of agree with this (except for the insults part). Why not just give a direct answer phoenix? Dirk has single handedly turned around an entire franchise, turning a losing team into a contender/almost contender every year he's been there...

He singlehandedly did what? Nash and Finley weren't there? Cuban's ownership didnt have anything to do with it?

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 02:18 AM

He singlehandedly did what? Nash and Finley weren't there? Cuban's ownership didnt have anything to do with it?

Finley was past his prime, Nash was solid, and they had a 50/50 shot at beating the Spurs before Dirk went down in the 02-03WCF. Cuban has been a net negative as an owner, for all his moves.

tpols

12-15-2010, 02:18 AM

He singlehandedly did what? Nash and Finley weren't there? Cuban's ownership didnt have anything to do with it?
:oldlol:

What about the finals runs and the other 6 years (soon to be 9-10)? There was no nash. Finley?:oldlol: What does that mean? Dude didn't even deserve to be the second best player on a championship team.

Dirk has single handedly made the mavs relevant from their championship run and on (and he had the main option role long before then).

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 02:23 AM

Finley was past his prime, Nash was solid, and they had a 50/50 shot at beating the Spurs before Dirk went down in the 02-03WCF. Cuban has been a net negative as an owner, for all his moves.
Yes, Finley was past his prime averaging 20+ all the way until 03, where he was averaging 19 PPG. Some bum there.

Dirk didnt single handedly do anything except choke. This guy has had a laundry list of talented players yet only one finals appearance where he choked hard and a loss to an eight seed in his MVP season. Now you have people saying he's going to be top 18? Are you serious? SMH.

Dave3

12-15-2010, 02:24 AM

He singlehandedly did what? Nash and Finley weren't there? Cuban's ownership didnt have anything to do with it?
Like others said already, Nash and Finley weren't exactly at their best. And since then, Dirk has continued exactly where the Mavs left off since losing Nash/Finley, not skipping a beat. And Cuban's ownership is great for their financial situation, but that alone isn't exactly what's making them win. Plus, Cuban's ownership is kind of the same as Dirk, since Cuban is what brought him there anyways. He's consistently at 22, 23, and 24+ ppg throughout the decade, and scores efficiently. His defense has been good recently, and though his rebounding is sub par, he still wins games for the Mavs at a very good rate.

Sarcastic

12-15-2010, 02:24 AM

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 02:27 AM

Like others said already, Nash and Finley weren't exactly at their best. And since then, Dirk has continued exactly where the Mavs left off since losing Nash/Finley, not skipping a beat. And Cuban's ownership is great for their financial situation, but that alone isn't exactly what's making them win. Plus, Cuban's ownership is kind of the same as Dirk, since Cuban is what brought him there anyways. He's consistently at 22, 23, and 24+ ppg throughout the decade, and scores efficiently. His defense has been good recently, and though his rebounding is sub par, he still wins games for the Mavs at a very good rate.
Is this supposed to be top 15/20/25/30/35/40 material?

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 02:29 AM

Yes, Finley was past his prime averaging 20+ all the way until 03, where he was averaging 19 PPG. Some bum there.

Dirk didnt single handedly do anything except choke. This guy has had a laundry list of talented players yet only one finals appearance where he choked hard and a loss to an eight seed in his MVP season. Now you have people saying he's going to be top 18? Are you serious? SMH.

Finley was good but let's look for example at who Kobe plays with : a legit franchise player bigma in his prime as a 2nd option (gasol), a legit bigman with youth (bynum), the 2nd best perimeter defender of the generation (artest) and one of the most versatile guys in the league as his FOURTH option (odom). So basically all Kobe needed to win a ring was a collection of the best players possible. Dirk has played with good players but never anyone great, and that's the difference.

Dave3

12-15-2010, 02:33 AM

Is this supposed to be top 15/20/25/30/35/40 material?
I don't see why not...Think about a player like Ewing or Barkley. They're top 20/30 material right? What did they do that was so different than Dirk other than rebound slightly more in their primes. He consistently hovered around 9, 9.5, and 9,9 rebounds during his prime. Ewing was at 11 or 12. What made Ewing so much better? I mean even if he was, he's not freaking 20 spots better...

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 02:35 AM

Finley was good but let's look for example at who Kobe plays with : a legit franchise player bigman as a 2nd option (gasol), a legit bigman with youth (bynum), the 2nd best perimeter defender of the generation (artest) and one of the most versatile guys in the league as his FOURTH option (odom). So basically all Kobe needed to win a ring was a collection of the best players possible. Dirk has played with good players but never anyone great, and that's the difference.

Was Duncan playing with anyone "great" in 05 and 07? Wade had a past prime Shaq, Kobe won with Gasol and a hobbled Bynum, no artest and I'll give you Odom.Dirk cant even get out of the first round with Butler,Terry,Kidd,Marion,Haywood. But he's a top 30/40 player now?

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 02:39 AM

Was Duncan playing with anyone "great" in 05 and 07? Wade had a past prime Shaq, Kobe won with Gasol and a hobbled Bynum, no artest and I'll give you Odom.Dirk cant even get out of the first round with Butler,Terry,Kidd,Marion,Haywood. But he's a top 30/40 player now?

Ginobli is definitely great and Parker is between good and great. He also had the best wing defender of the generation in Bowen.

The Spurs still had a better cast than the Mavs last playoffs and were healthy unlike the Mavs.

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 02:39 AM

I don't see why not...Think about a player like Ewing or Barkley. They're top 20/30 material right? What did they do that was so different than Dirk other than rebound slightly more in their primes. He consistently hovered around 9, 9.5, and 9,9 rebounds during his prime. Ewing was at 11 or 12. What made Ewing so much better? I mean even if he was, he's not freaking 20 spots better...
You mean aside from Ewing's impact on both sides of the ball

Dave3

12-15-2010, 02:41 AM

I like Dirk Nowitzki, and think he is an all time great, but since we are giving him credit for single-handedly reviving the Mavericks and carrying them the past decade, then we can also say he single-handedly lost in the first round of the playoffs four times, right?
Hate to sound like a smarta**, but that's kind of a false dichotomy. You can't just say "if it's because of him they win, it must also because of him when they lose." If a player plays well in 2 series, hell plays the exact same way and at the exact same level, but his team shows up in one and not the other, is he blamed for the one his team lost and credited for the win? Why if he played the exact same way? Dirk freaking shot 55%, 54%, and 95% from FG, 3FG and FT in the first round last year while scoring 26.7 ppg. What more did you want him to do? Players aren't perfect, and they're all limited in their ability to help their team. Every player is imperfect....

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 02:43 AM

Ginobli is definitely great and Parker is between good and great. He also had the best wing defender of the generation in Bowen.

The Spurs still had a better cast than the Mavs last playoffs and were healthy unlike the Mavs.
Ginboli is great in what sense?

Dave3

12-15-2010, 02:43 AM

You mean aside from Ewing's impact on both sides of the ball
So does Dirk...his defense has been fine for the last 4 or 5 seasons now. Bad defense is based on reputation from a long time ago.

Sarcastic

12-15-2010, 02:44 AM

Hate to sound like a smarta**, but that's kind of a false dichotomy. You can't just say "if it's because of him they win, it must also because of him when they lose." If a player plays well in 2 series, hell plays the exact same way and at the exact same level, but his team shows up in one and not the other, is he blamed for the one his team lost and credited for the win? Why if he played the exact same way? Dirk freaking shot 55%, 54%, and 95% from FG, 3FG and FT in the first round last year while scoring 26.7 ppg. What more did you want him to do? Players aren't perfect, and they're all limited in their ability to help their team. Every player is imperfect....

First of all, no player has ever singlehandedly won nor lost a game in the history of basketball. It is a team game, which means every player has something to do with the outcome.

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 02:45 AM

Ginboli is great in what sense?

When he's healthy he's arguably the most dangerous swingman in the league in the playoffs. he gets to the line at will, is a great outside shooter, and one of the best defenders at his position--what else can you ask for from your swing?

Dave3

12-15-2010, 02:46 AM

First of all, no player has ever singlehandedly won nor lost a game in the history of basketball. It is a team game, which means every player has something to do with the outcome.
Lol, singlehandedly isn't meant literally. It's meant that he was a very big factor in the winning, more than any other player in the series. When they lose though, if he plays the same level but the teammates can't step up, the loss blame shouldn't be put on him if he played well.

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 02:48 AM

So does Dirk...his defense has been fine for the last 4 or 5 seasons now. Bad defense is based on reputation from a long time ago.
PM me when Dirk is grabbing 12 boards a night, 2 blocks a night while being the linchpin on of the best defensive teams of the decade.

Dave3

12-15-2010, 02:51 AM

PM me when Dirk is grabbing 12 boards a night, 2 blocks a night while being the linchpin on of the best defensive teams of the decade.
I never said he was as good defensively, but he's still a factor on both ends of the floor. And it's not like Ewing was in a Dwight situation where he was surrounded by defensive trash and he was the sole defensive anchor. The team defense was great because of the entire team, not just Ewing.
Edit: And Ewing averaged 12 rpg only once, his usual average was 10/11, which while better, Dirk was usually at 9/10 rpg. One rebound? And Dirk's reached 1.5 bpg before, but yeah, it's not his strong area.

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 02:53 AM

I never said he was as good defensively, but he's still a factor on both ends of the floor. And it's not like Ewing was in a Dwight situation where he was surrounded by defensive trash and he was the sole defensive anchor. The team defense was great because of the entire team, not just Ewing.
I never said Ewing singlehandedly made the Knicks a great defensive team, he was a just a big part of it while still scoring 20+ on the offensive end. To add on to that, I have from the 40-55 range along with Dirk/Kidd/Nash.

Dave3

12-15-2010, 02:56 AM

I never said Ewing singlehandedly made the Knicks a great defensive team, he was a just a big part of it while still scoring 20+ on the offensive end. To add on to that, I have from the 40-55 range along with Dirk/Kidd/Nash.
I never said you did lol. You have Ewing in the top 40-55?

Jacks3

12-15-2010, 02:57 AM

Finley was good but let's look for example at who Kobe plays with : a legit franchise player bigma in his prime as a 2nd option (gasol), a legit bigman with youth (bynum), the 2nd best perimeter defender of the generation (artest) and one of the most versatile guys in the league as his FOURTH option (odom). So basically all Kobe needed to win a ring was a collection of the best players possible. Dirk has played with good players but never anyone great, and that's the difference.
lol

Gasol isn't a franchise big-man. You don't want him as your franchise player, trust me.

Bynum averaged 6/3 in the 2009 Playoffs and 8/7 in the 2010 Playoffs.lol

2010 Artest was perhaps the worst offensive SF in the league among starters, his D was good I'll give you that.

Odom is Mr. Inconsistent and struggled throughout the 2010 Playoffs. Lakers still won.

Fisher was perhaps the worst starting PG in the league in 2009 and 2010 and the Lakers bench sucked.

lol @ these being "the best players possible".

Stop overrating Kobe's cast to prop up Dirk.

Sarcastic

12-15-2010, 02:58 AM

Pat Ewing made the top 50.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/50greatest.html

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 02:58 AM

I never said you did lol. You have Ewing in the top 40-55?
Yuppers, where do you have him?

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 03:02 AM

lol

Gasol isn't a franchise big-man. You don't want him as your franchise player, trust me.

Bynum averaged 6/3 in the 2009 Playoffs and 8/7 in the 2010 Playoffs.lol

2010 Artest was perhaps the worst offensive SF in the league among starters, his D was good I'll give you that.

Odom is Mr. Inconsistent and struggled throughout the 2010 Playoffs. Lakers still won.

Fisher was perhaps the worst starting PG in the league in 2009 and 2010 and the Lakers bench sucked.

lol @ these being "the best players possible".

Stop overrating Kobe's cast to prop up Dirk.

I'm not sure if I should respond to something so stupid. Lakers fans truly are mentally ill. Yes, Gasol only won 50 games as a franchise guy IN THE WEST, he's obviously a shitty second option to have. Certainly much worse than Caron Butler or 70 year old Jason Kidd, take your pick.

New York Knicks

12-15-2010, 03:04 AM

lol

Gasol isn't a franchise big-man. You don't want him as your franchise player, trust me.

Bynum averaged 6/3 in the 2009 Playoffs and 8/7 in the 2010 Playoffs.lol

2010 Artest was perhaps the worst offensive SF in the league among starters, his D was good I'll give you that.

Odom is Mr. Inconsistent and struggled throughout the 2010 Playoffs. Lakers still won.

Fisher was perhaps the worst starting PG in the league in 2009 and 2010 and the Lakers bench sucked.

lol @ these being "the best players possible".

Stop overrating Kobe's cast to prop up Dirk.
Gasol had about as much success as Kobe as the 1st option before they were paired together. And Gasol never had a player like Odom on the Grizzlies.

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 03:05 AM

Gasol had about as much success as Kobe as the 1st option before they were paired together. And Gasol never had a player like Odom on the Grizzlies.

Exactly, Lakers fans are mentally ill. And the best part is that he accused me of trying to make Dirk better and Kobe worse by propping up Gasol when in fact he intentionally did the exact opposite.

tpols

12-15-2010, 03:06 AM

The funny thing is manu ginobli and tony parker are better players than anyone dirk has ever played with. He had nash before he exploded and thats really it. It's so funny how duncan gets a pass for this though. Duncan is obviously a more impactful player than dirk, but if you were to give dirk coach pop, the best defensive stopper in the league in bowen, the greatest euro to ever play in manu, an explosive scorer in tony, and the rest of the 00s spurs team I guaruntee you they win one ring especially considering they were a couple minutes away from it with avery friggin johnson as the coach and jason lol terry as the second option.

Dave3

12-15-2010, 03:06 AM

Yuppers, where do you have him?
I don't really have rankings like these in my mind, but I don't think most people would have 40 players better than someone like Ewing...

tpols

12-15-2010, 03:07 AM

Gasol had about as much success as Kobe as the 1st option before they were paired together. And Gasol never had a player like Odom on the Grizzlies.
Yea with the difference being kobe was putting up MVP numbers while gasol couldn't even crack a 20/10 statline:oldlol:

Jacks3

12-15-2010, 03:08 AM

. Yes, Gasol only won 50 games as a franchise guy IN THE WEST, he's obviously a shitty second option to have.
No, he's not a shitty second option. But he's not a franchise player either. The Grizzlies realized that. You aren't winning anything with him as your best player.
Besides, he was also swept in the playoffs three straight series and didn't exactly light it up in the playoffs. Also, those Grizzlies won through team-play and defense. This wasn't a case of a guy carrying a team ala 03 T-Mac or 09 Wade etc. Stop overrating Bryant's cast, thanks.

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 03:08 AM

Yea with the difference being kobe was putting up MVP numbers while gasol couldn't even crack a 20/10 statline:oldlol:

The difference being Gasol led a team to the 5 seed while Kobe choked his ass off, as usual in the playoffs, against the Suns

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 03:10 AM

No, he's not a shitty second option. But he's not a franchise player either. The Grizzlies realized that. You aren't winning anything with him as your best player.
Besides, he was also swept in the playoffs three straight series and didn't exactly light it up in the playoffs. Also, those Grizzlies won through team-play and defense. This wasn't a case of a guy carrying a team ala 03 T-Mac or 09 Wade etc. Stop overrating Bryant's cast, thanks.

Kobe has by far the best cast in the league, and his 4th option is better than the Mavs' 2nd option.. If Gasol isn't a franchise player then neither are chris paul, carmelo anthony, and several others.

Jacks3

12-15-2010, 03:10 AM

Exactly, Lakers fans are mentally ill..
lol @ this retard.

The two situations are totally different.

Gasol wasn't CARRYING the team; Kobe was.

You realize the guy only made one All-Star game in Memphis?

That he had ZERO MVP votes?

ZERO All-NBA Teams?

The guy wasn't even considered top 5 at his own position!

This was NOT a guy comparable to what 05-07 Kobe was doing. :facepalm

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 03:13 AM

lol @ this retard.

The two situations are totally different.

Gasol wasn't CARRYING the team; Kobe was.

You realize the guy only made one All-Star game in Memphis?

That he had ZERO MVP votes?

ZERO All-NBA Teams?

The guy wasn't even considered top 5 at his own position!

This was NOT a guy comparable to what 05-07 Kobe was doing. :facepalm

Kobe plays for the Lakers eg the 2nd biggest market and the biggest fan base, is black, American and craves attention--Gasol was in a small market, is a white foreigner, and shuns attention. That obviously played no small role in all star/mvp consideration.

Jacks3

12-15-2010, 03:13 AM

Kobe has by far the best cast in the league, and his 4th option is better than the Mavs' 2nd option.. If Gasol isn't a franchise player then neither are chris paul, carmelo anthony, and several others.
Nope. Boston with Rondo and Lebron with the Heat both have better supporting casts.

CP3/Melo have actually have had some form of playoff success and are MUCH better players than Memphis Gasol. Please be serious.

And I never denied that Kobe has a better supporting cast than Dirk.

tpols

12-15-2010, 03:14 AM

It's so funny how kobe haters are completely twisted in their logic. They're now arguing that a pre-08 gasol was on prime kobe bryant's level? Pfft..:oldlol:

Jacks3

12-15-2010, 03:15 AM

Kobe plays for the Lakers eg the 2nd biggest market and the biggest fan base, is black, American and craves attention--Gasol was in a small market, is a white foreigner, and shuns attention. That obviously played no small role in all star/mvp consideration.
:facepalm

It had nothing to do with that and everything to do with the fact that 05-07 Kobe was a MUCH, MUCH more dominant player than Memphis Gasol.

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 03:17 AM

:facepalm

It had nothing to do with that and everything to do with the fact that 05-07 Kobe was a MUCH, MUCH more dominant player than Memphis Gasol.

I'm not denying that he's a better player. Gasol as a first option isn't getting you far but when he's your 2nd option you're in pretty damn good shape. And adding guys like Artest and Odom and Bynum (who is capable of 20-10 if he gets enough touches) is an added luxury no one else has.

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 03:20 AM

Nope. Boston with Rondo and Lebron with the Heat both have better supporting casts.

CP3/Melo have actually have had some form of playoff success and are MUCH better players than Memphis Gasol. Please be serious.

And I never denied that Kobe has a better supporting cast than Dirk.

Chris Paul has won a grand total of one playoffs series. Carmelo has won two, and Billups was arguably the better player. Again, not a convincing case that they are better than Gasol.

Jacks3

12-15-2010, 03:28 AM

I'm not denying that he's a better player. Gasol as a first option isn't getting you far but when he's your 2nd option you're in pretty damn good shape. And adding guys like Artest and Odom and Bynum (who is capable of 20-10 if he gets enough touches) is an added luxury no one else has.

Yes, he's a great second option. Bynum has put up 6/3 for the Lakers in their past two Championships. What he's "capable" of doesn't really matter. Oh, and several teams have those "luxuries". Like I said, look at the the Heat and Celtics. Both have supporting casts just as great.

Jacks3

12-15-2010, 03:30 AM

Chris Paul has won a grand total of one playoffs series. Carmelo has won two, and Billups was arguably the better player. Again, not a convincing case that they are better than Gasol.

You honestly think MEM Gasol was as good as 08/09 CP3/Carmelo?

Guys who are considered top 6-8 in the league?

MEM Gasol wasn't even a top 15 player.

Come on man...

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 03:37 AM

You honestly think MEM Gasol was as good as 08/09 CP3/Carmelo?

Guys who are considered top 6-8 in the league?

MEM Gasol wasn't even a top 15 player.

Come on man...

I think Paul is a little better, but because they are both black, they are viewed much more highly than Pau is/was. Remember, Gasol had that Grizzlies team really hot for the first half of 05-06 before Stoudemaire went down. Even Barkley was on record saying in the playoffs Gasol would shock the world. He just happened to meet Dirk who was playing out of his mind.

chazzy

12-15-2010, 03:42 AM

I think Paul is a little better, but because they are both black, they are viewed much more highly than Pau is/was
Weak. You do realize Nash and Dirk won all 3 MVPs during Pau's prime Memphis years? There goes that hypothesis

thomaspynchon

12-15-2010, 03:43 AM

Weak. You do realize Nash and Dirk won all 3 MVPs during Pau's prime Memphis years? There goes that hypothesis

What does that prove? Tons of people insult them for their MVPs but no one dares criticize Iverson, leFraud, and Kobe when they won their MVPs. It's not exactly a stretch to say that black players are given more respect and leeway from the average fan than their white counterparts. It's just the way it is.

NoName22

12-15-2010, 03:54 AM

Kobe plays for the Lakers eg the 2nd biggest market and the biggest fan base, is black, American and craves attention--Gasol was in a small market, is a white foreigner, and shuns attention. That obviously played no small role in all star/mvp consideration.

Lololololololol.

The MVPs between 05 & 07 were white foreigners :oldlol:

Semi

12-15-2010, 04:59 AM

watched the game, 3 things...
hack a haywood
no d from terry (stevenson should've played more)
dirk was great but the defense in the second half (especially terry as i mentioned) was really bad

creepingdeath

12-15-2010, 02:57 PM

Funny how this thread turned from thread praising Dirk to a shitfest of hate toward Dirk and Kobe. Not even gonna go into detail about the shithead from Atlanta.

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 03:03 PM

Funny how this thread turned from thread praising Dirk to a shitfest of hate toward Dirk and Kobe. Not even gonna go into detail about the shithead from Atlanta.
:oldlol: Why are you so mad?

He scores consistently so he should be top 40? And if he gets a ring and another MVP he would be top 18? Really?

lie on your stomach for a couple days and ice your anus buddy.

creepingdeath

12-15-2010, 03:15 PM

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 03:17 PM

I'm mad because I had to wait hours until my bus came and it was f*cking cold outside. You can't get to me, bro.

Not gonna bother to argue with you about Dirk, cause you never respond to reasonable arguments and just post stupid oneliners.

I'm gonna respond to you because you have sand in your ****** and never respond to reasonable arguments, instead you just post massive generalizations which are only true in a fantasy setting.

It seems that you have either post K-blaze/Shaq Attack length drivel or one-liners on this site, nothing in between. I believe in using less to say more and letting posters figure out why they are wrong instead of adapting the epic of Gilgamesh to incorporate basketball players. I dont read essays, my attention span is a tad bit too short for those.

creepingdeath

12-15-2010, 03:24 PM

I believe in using less to say more
Wow, you truly are amazing. :bowdown: You're absolutely right - if you would artificially inflate your posts, they wouldn't be of any more intrinsic value, so yeah, just stick to the oneliners.

Yung D-Will

12-15-2010, 05:57 PM

I agree with Creeping on this one.

And Lol. Gasol was never better than Dirk.

Showtime

12-15-2010, 06:02 PM

I agree with Creeping on this one.

And Lol. Gasol was never better than Dirk.
He is at playing basketball.

Yung D-Will

12-15-2010, 06:05 PM

He is at playing basketball.
No.

He never was. But you take time out of your day to hate on Dirk and any player not name Chris Paul right?

ginobli2311

12-15-2010, 06:07 PM

He is at playing basketball.

nope. never was and isn't currently.

sorry mate.

Showtime

12-15-2010, 06:09 PM

nope. never was and isn't currently.

sorry mate.
Yep. I'd pick Pau in a pickup game for my team, and if I were a GM, I'd pick him for a pro team every time, because he plays the game better. Not score more points, but plays the game better.

Yung D-Will

12-15-2010, 06:10 PM

Showtime

12-15-2010, 06:13 PM

And People would respect you just about the same as they Respected David Kahn this summer.
Darko hasn't done anything to merit what Kahn said about him. Pau is a champion who was, IMO, the Laker's MVP, and at least is equally responsible along with Kobe for making the Lakers championship contenders. You cannot equate the two. Pau's play is enough to justify my statement, unlike Darko with Kahn.

ginobli2311

12-15-2010, 06:17 PM

Yep. I'd pick Pau in a pickup game for my team, and if I were a GM, I'd pick him for a pro team every time, because he plays the game better. Not score more points, but plays the game better.

do you not understand what would happen if pau played on a team that their success relied on Gasol taking over the close games down the stretch night in night out for an entire season?

come on man. i love gasol. love him. don't make me hate on one of my favorite players. gasol is amazing. he's just not dirk. dirk is one of the 25 best ever. 10 straight years of 50 plus wins without a legit 2nd option. one of the most clutch players of the last decade if not the most clutch.

we know you don't like dirk. and that is fine, but don't take it so far that gasol is better. he's simply not.

Showtime

12-15-2010, 06:20 PM

do you not understand what would happen if pau played on a team that their success relied on Gasol taking over the close games down the stretch night in night out for an entire season?

come on man. i love gasol. love him. don't make me hate on one of my favorite players. gasol is amazing. he's just not dirk. dirk is one of the 25 best ever. 10 straight years of 50 plus wins without a legit 2nd option. one of the most clutch players of the last decade if not the most clutch.

we know you don't like dirk. and that is fine, but don't take it so far that gasol is better. he's simply not.
He is at playing basketball. What don't you understand? I didn't say he scores more points, or wins 50 games a year (with Cuban and good teammates every season). I said play the game. Now, you mention taking over games, but what you are implying is scoring points. Not only can Pau score in clutch situations (in a more varied fashion with his better low post game), but he will set up guys more, block shots, get key rebounds, whatever it takes because he makes plays. If I want a guy to draw up a last second jumper? Yeah, maybe I would pick Dirk. But if I need a basketball player who impacts the game, I choose Pau because he does more things on the court better than Dirk.

And another thing: I'm tired of people ripping him with his early career in Memphis. First of all, the only time he had a decent cast with good defensive players, they went to the playoffs. Imagine him with Cuban's support in Dallas instead of in Memphis. Then, when the team made some poor moves and the grizz had a revolving door for coaching, and Pau was dealing with injuries, and was unhappy with his situation and the team needed to make changes, people act like he was nothing. It doesn't mean he wasn't one of the most skilled bigs at the time. It's like people who never heard of Big Al in Minny. Not to mention: Pau was playing in his early 20's, and just around the time he gets healthy and gets in his prime was when he came to LA. So it's no wonder he's playing his best basketball of his career: he's in his prime years in the perfect situation in the triangle for the most skilled big man in the game.

ginobli2311

12-15-2010, 06:31 PM

He is at playing basketball. What don't you understand? I didn't say he scores more points, or wins 50 games a year (with Cuban and good teammates every season). I said play the game. Now, you mention taking over games, but what you are implying is scoring points. Not only can Pau score in clutch situations (in a more varied fashion with his better low post game), but he will set up guys more, block shots, get key rebounds, whatever it takes because he makes plays. If I want a guy to draw up a last second jumper? Yeah, maybe I would pick Dirk. But if I need a basketball player who impacts the game, I choose Pau because he does more things on the court better than Dirk.

at playing basketball? ok. agree to disagree.

and no. you show your bias saying pau is better in late game situations. i'm not solely talking about scoring. i'm talking about forcing the defense to double or get lit up. dirk is a much better clutch player. he can get to the free throw line easier and is a much better free throw shooter. for example:

in close games with 5 minutes or less last year:

gasol shot 64% from the free throw line
dirk shot 98% from the free throw line

LOL...wow. just.....wow....LOL

i could go on and on about how gasol scored 17 points per 48 minutes of clutch time while dirk scored 47. but i won't embarrass you that much.

just admit you are wrong and leave.

ginobli2311

12-15-2010, 06:33 PM

He is at playing basketball. What don't you understand? I didn't say he scores more points, or wins 50 games a year (with Cuban and good teammates every season). I said play the game. Now, you mention taking over games, but what you are implying is scoring points. Not only can Pau score in clutch situations (in a more varied fashion with his better low post game), but he will set up guys more, block shots, get key rebounds, whatever it takes because he makes plays. If I want a guy to draw up a last second jumper? Yeah, maybe I would pick Dirk. But if I need a basketball player who impacts the game, I choose Pau because he does more things on the court better than Dirk.

And another thing: I'm tired of people ripping him with his early career in Memphis. First of all, the only time he had a decent cast with good defensive players, they went to the playoffs. Imagine him with Cuban's support in Dallas instead of in Memphis. Then, when the team made some poor moves and the grizz had a revolving door for coaching, and Pau was dealing with injuries, and was unhappy with his situation and the team needed to make changes, people act like he was nothing. It doesn't mean he wasn't one of the most skilled bigs at the time. It's like people who never heard of Big Al in Minny. Not to mention: Pau was playing in his early 20's, and just around the time he gets healthy and gets in his prime was when he came to LA. So it's no wonder he's playing his best basketball of his career: he's in his prime years in the perfect situation in the triangle for the most skilled big man in the game.

i have never ripped gasol for that. in fact, i think it shows just how good he actually was in memphis. winning close to 50 three years in a row and making the playoffs in a tough western conference with average help at best.

like i said. i love gasol. he's just not on dirk's level.

Showtime

12-15-2010, 06:37 PM

and no. you show your bias saying pau is better in late game situations.

I didn't say he was better in late game situations. I said he makes plays in more ways then just score.

i'm not solely talking about scoring.

Yes, you are. You are talking about clutch scoring. All Dirk has on Pau is scoring, and that's even in volume and not variety.

i'm talking about forcing the defense to double or get lit up.

Is that why he can get shut down by certain SF's? Or is that why teams can let Dirk get his and the rest of the team gets shut down because Dirk doesn't make plays for others? Yeah, teams would rather get "lit up" and win playoff series. Or how about getting people in foul trouble by dominating down low like Pau can do?

dirk is a much better clutch player.

He's a much better clutch shooter. That's it.

i could go on and on about how gasol scored 17 points per 48 minutes of clutch time while dirk scored 47. but i won't embarrass you that much.

just admit you are wrong and leave.
I don't have to admit anything, because you are making up your own talking points and then claiming I'm wrong about something I never tried to argue. I never said Pau is a better clutch scorer. I said Pau can make more kinds of plays and impact the game in more areas. I even said in my previous post that if I needed to draw up a last second jumper, I choose Dirk. But stop acting as if the only thing that Dirk does better, which is score with jumpers, makes him the better player. Basketball is about way more than hitting a couple more shots a game, and those differences are what sets Pau apart, and it's why he's a champion and is as much a apart of why the lakers are contenders as Kobe.

Sarcastic

12-15-2010, 06:38 PM

I don't know how Gasol got into this, but Dirk is definitely better than Gasol.

At the PF position, Dirk ranks all time a notch below the top 4: Duncan, Malone, KG, Barkley.

Showtime

12-15-2010, 06:43 PM

I don't know how Gasol got into this, but Dirk is definitely better than Gasol.

At the PF position, Dirk ranks all time a notch below the top 4: Duncan, Malone, KG, Barkley.
Resume? Yeah, he's up there. Not as a player.

ginobli2311

12-15-2010, 06:46 PM

I didn't say he was better in late game situations. I said he makes plays in more ways then just score.

Yes, you are. You are talking about clutch scoring. All Dirk has on Pau is scoring, and that's even in volume and not variety.

Is that why he can get shut down by certain SF's? Or is that why teams can let Dirk get his and the rest of the team gets shut down because Dirk doesn't make plays for others? Yeah, teams would rather get "lit up" and win playoff series. Or how about getting people in foul trouble by dominating down low like Pau can do?

He's a much better clutch shooter. That's it.

I don't have to admit anything, because you are making up your own talking points and then claiming I'm wrong about something I never tried to argue. I never said Pau is a better clutch scorer. I said Pau can make more kinds of plays and impact the game in more areas. I even said in my previous post that if I needed to draw up a last second jumper, I choose Dirk. But stop acting as if the only thing that Dirk does better, which is score with jumpers, makes him the better player. Basketball is about way more than hitting a couple more shots a game, and those differences are what sets Pau apart, and it's why he's a champion and is as much a apart of why the lakers are contenders as Kobe.

its not just making a couple of jumpers more. its about being able to dominate a game and carry a team through a tough playoff series night in night out as the the main guy.

i just don't think pau can do this.

also

dirk averaged 5 assits in crunch time last year. pau averaged 3. dirk averaged 2 turnovers while gasol averaged 4. both averaged 2 blocks.

dirk shot 7% better from the field and shot 67% from the three point line.

what evidence do you have that Pau could take over late in games consistently or carry a team past a great team like the spurs in the playoffs.

you can bump this post when pau does this:

37 points 15 boards 3 assits in an overtime game 7 on the road against the spurs. bump it up when this happens.

there is a difference between one of the best complimentary players ever and true number 1 franchise player like dirk. but you have your head way too far up your ass to realize the difference.

FF1

12-15-2010, 06:46 PM

Haters gotta hate.

I know it's a team game... but I know for damn sure that Dirk will never get swept in the playoffs 3 years in a row.. I don't care WHO is playing with him.

ginobli2311

12-15-2010, 06:47 PM

Resume? Yeah, he's up there. Not as a player.

LOL

making even stronger of a case that anyone with that much green is a moron.

Showtime

12-15-2010, 06:53 PM

its not just making a couple of jumpers more. its about being able to dominate a game and carry a team through a tough playoff series night in night out as the the main guy.

If Dirk had this ability, how do you explain the last few seasons? The hornets allowed Dirk to get his, and took out the rest of his team because they knew specifically that: 1 Dirk can't win a playoff series on his own, and 2 Dirk doesn't have the ability to help his team outside scoring points. If what you say were true, the GS debacle never would have happened, and he would have been able to beat that pathetically thin hornet team that was easily dispatched by the nuggets and spurs.

i just don't think pau can do this.

He has some hardware that says otherwise. At least, he's equally important to being a champion as Kobe, and as some have thought, he could be argued as the team's MVP.

dirk averaged 5 assits in crunch time last year. pau averaged 3. dirk averaged 2 turnovers while gasol averaged 4. both averaged 2 blocks.

So...you are basing your claim on "crunch time" stats for one season last year?

what evidence do you have that Pau could take over late in games consistently or carry a team past a great team like the spurs in the playoffs.

By watching him play basketball and helping the lakers win the championship, and watching him impact the game more than I've ever seen Dirk ever do. And again: you are stuck on "late game scoring" topic and you can't seem to get out of that box, because that's the only thing Dirk has done more of.

there is a difference between one of the best complimentary players ever and true number 1 franchise player like dirk. but you have your head way too far up your ass to realize the difference.

I guarantee you if Dirk were in Memphis and Pau was in Dallas, Dirk would have been traded. You seem to think that Pau isn't a franchise player. The fact is that Dirk is a #2 star playing the role of franchise player, and Pau is a franchise player being a co-franchise player and winning championships now instead of being stuck in Memphis.

Showtime

12-15-2010, 06:53 PM

LOL

making even stronger of a case that anyone with that much green is a moron.
So you think Dirk is the 4th best PF ever?

FF1

12-15-2010, 06:54 PM

Playoff numbers:

Dirk: 25.6 ppg, 11 rpg, 2.6 assists, 1.2 steals, 1 block, 46% fg, 88% ft, 37% 3-point, 2 TOs

Gasol: 18.5 pgg, 10 rpg, 3.2 assists, .6 steals, 1.9 blocks, 53% fg, 73% ft, 20% 3-point, 2 TOs

The only thing that Gasol realllly has on Dirk is fg% but Dirk shot 54% for 26 points last year so I'm not too concerned. Oh, and Gasol has Kobe and Phil.

The biggest thing Laker/Gasol fans can point out is rings.. well that's a team thing, right? Just like Gasol getting his ass SWEPT THREE YEARS IN A ROW is a team thing, right?

Let me repeat - Gasol is 0-12 in the playoffs as the #1 guy. And don't give that crap that it was just the "grizz"... they made it to the playoffs right? I can think of a lot worse teams who have won ONE out of TWELVE playoff games.

ginobli2311

12-15-2010, 06:59 PM

So you think Dirk is the 4th best PF ever?

i was responding to you player comment.

as a player, dirk is right up there with the best power forwards' of all time.

i don't know where i would rank him, probably at number 6, but he's not way way back like you make it out to be.

he's been very close to as good as KG since he's been in the league...its simply not a night and day difference.

every player has had bad years and playoff series. you hammer dirk for golden state or other playoff series.

what about gasol going 0-12 in memphis? does that not count for some reason?

and again you show your bias and lack of knowledge by hammering dirk for not beating the hornets on his own. lol...what. can gasol beat teams on his own? can kobe? can any player?

i'm sure you somehow blame dirk for last year's loss in the playoffs as well. it was dirk's fault that kidd and terry were awful and butler was an abomination. its was dirk's fault right?

creepingdeath

12-15-2010, 07:01 PM

And again: you are stuck on "late game scoring" topic and you can't seem to get out of that box, because that's the only thing Dirk has done more of.
No, he is not stuck on that. He specifically gave you other stats like assists, blocks and turnovers.

The fact is that Dirk is a #2 star playing the role of franchise player, and Pau is a franchise player being a co-franchise player and winning championships now instead of being stuck in Memphis.
:roll:

Showtime

12-15-2010, 07:04 PM

Playoff numbers:
The only thing that Gasol realllly has on Dirk is fg% but Dirk shot 54% for 26 points last year so I'm not too concerned. Oh, and Gasol has Kobe and Phil.

Do you know what stats are? They are numbers that are used to track actual events, in an attempt to quantify impact. They do not encompass everything that a player can do to impact the game, nor do they represent which players are superior. Posting stats doesn't change one thing I said about Pau in this thread, because nothing I have said can be disproven with stats. I didn't say "Pau shoots x, y, and z compared to Dirk". Guys like Amare and Z-Bo have put up great numbers, but I wouldn't have them at the top of their position based on numbers.

The biggest thing Laker/Gasol fans can point out is rings.. well that's a team thing, right? Just like Gasol getting his ass SWEPT THREE YEARS IN A ROW is a team thing, right?

And Gasol is as important to winning rings as any other Laker. He's the reason they are one of the top contenders. And since you brought up his career in Memphis, I will restate this: if Pau was in Dallas with Cuban's support and Dirk was in memphis, nobody would care who Dirk is and Pau would be getting MVP talk. And that was before Pau's prime, and he's in his prime now playing the best basketball of his career as the best skilled big in the association.

Let me repeat - Gasol is 0-12 in the playoffs as the #1 guy.

He's the co-franchise player right now on a championship team. You can't seem to grasp this point: pau is as important to the lakers contending for a championship as any other laker.

And don't give that crap that it was just the "grizz"... they made it to the playoffs right? I can think of a lot worse teams who have won ONE out of TWELVE playoff games.
Let me ask you a question: how many times has a Shaq team been swept in a series? I bet you would be surprised by that number.

Showtime

12-15-2010, 07:04 PM

No, he is not stuck on that. He specifically gave you other stats like assists, blocks and turnovers.

Again: stats in one season in "crunch time", and that's an argument he's making by himself.

FF1

12-15-2010, 07:06 PM

StillKill24

12-15-2010, 07:09 PM

wow over tha last couple years gasol went from being the most underrated to most overrated player in the league. :roll:

Scoooter

12-15-2010, 07:13 PM

Dirk > Pau.

I have spoken.

Showtime

12-15-2010, 07:15 PM

i was responding to you player comment.

And I was responding to a comment about him being the #5 PF ever behind Duncan, KG, Barkley, and Malone.

as a player, dirk is right up there with the best power forwards' of all time.

i don't know where i would rank him, probably at number 6, but he's not way way back like you make it out to be.

he's been very close to as good as KG since he's been in the league...its simply not a night and day difference.

No, he hasn't. Dirk was never better than Duncan, KG, or Webber when all those guys were in their primes earlier in the 2000's. Add to that guys like Barkley, Malone, and go back to Elvin Hayes, Baylor, and Pettit, and Dirk looks lower and lower on the list.

every player has had bad years and playoff series. you hammer dirk for golden state or other playoff series.

I hammer him when those ACTUAL EVENTS CONTRADICT YOUR STATEMENTS ABOUT HIS GAME. You say teams must double or get burned by his amazing scoring ability that can take over entire series, and then when I point to clear contradictions to this, you say I am just hammering him. I'm proving why you are wrong about him.

what about gasol going 0-12 in memphis? does that not count for some reason?

I already brought up the fact that they were in the playoffs to begin with (an achievement in itself), not to mention that he would have Dirk-like success if he was in the situation Dirk was with great support of the team and owner. And again, do you know how many times great players on great teams were swept? It's not like we are talking about a career of losing like Shareef or something. We are talking about a young player in his early 20's at the start of his career, and you are acting like he's a career loser. The guy is in his prime now, the best PF in the game, and winning championships.

and again you show your bias and lack of knowledge by hammering dirk for not beating the hornets on his own. lol...what. can gasol beat teams on his own? can kobe? can any player?

What don't you get about this? I brought up those examples to clearly contradict your claims about Dirk's game, namely that he can close teams out by his individual scoring ability, and to back up my point about him not making plays outside of being a major scoring force. That's how arguments work: point-counter point. You brought up a claim about Dirk's game, and I provided examples that contradict your claim.

i'm sure you somehow blame dirk for last year's loss in the playoffs as well. it was dirk's fault that kidd and terry were awful and butler was an abomination. its was dirk's fault right?
I believe if Dirk's game went beyond scoring, and Pau was in his same situation, his teammates would have had better performances. But again, those example directly contradict your previous posts about Dirk's ability.

Showtime

12-15-2010, 07:16 PM

Not going to waste my time on an argument where no one is going to change their mind. you're not going to say anything that you haven't already said, and you're not going to listen to anything anyone says.
I have been discussing everything that's been argued against what I've posted. Just because you can't respond with legit arguments doesn't mean I'm not listening. I have countered every point you have tried to make. So please tell me: how many playoff series has Shaq failed to get even one game out of? And how has that made him less of a player?

FF1

12-15-2010, 07:56 PM

FF1

12-15-2010, 07:58 PM

Honestly, if you're counting Pau as a #1 guy.. find me another #1 guy who went 0-12 in his first 12 playoff games. Another guy on Pau's "level".

Showtime

12-15-2010, 08:01 PM

Rookie shaq got swept in his first series. Okay. Big deal.

Then he went on to WIN A FREAKIN GAME the next year in the playoffs... and didn't get swept in the first round till a dozen years later.

There's a difference between getting swept every once in awhile in 10-15 years of solid playoffs runs than going 0-12 for your first 12 playoff games.
"Getting swept every once in awhile" is exactly what happened to Pau. As I have already pointed out, this wasn't a career of losing. This was a young player in his early-mid 20's in the first few years of his career in the NBA. Now, he's in his prime and winning championships as the co-franchise player. So why do you continually bring up his Memphis career as if that's the only time he's ever played basketball? And again: what he did in memphis was impressive in itself. Not only did he make his team better and reach the playoffs whenever he had a decent team capable of doing so in the toughest conference, but that franchise hasn't done much aside from his time there, and he would have had more success if he was in Dirk's situation with the support he has in Dallas. So really, what are you trying to argue here? I don't even know what point you are trying to make.

YouCallILose

12-15-2010, 08:11 PM

:oldlol: Why are you so mad?

He scores consistently so he should be top 40? And if he gets a ring and another MVP he would be top 18? Really?

lie on your stomach for a couple days and ice your anus buddy.

How many MVP's who have 10+ all star appearances aren't in the top 40 all time? What about those that also scored 30k points?

How many 2X MVP's that led a team to a title aren't top 20 all time?

Barkley is top 20 all time and played NO defense..lets compare resumes

Barkley 1X MVP 1X Finals appearance 5X all nba 1st team 11X all star

Dirk 1XMVP 1X Finals apperance 4X all nba 1st team 10X all star and he's still in his prime

Ya clearly Dirk is nowhere near top 30 all time :roll:

Dirk with another title has

2X MVP 1 Championship 2X Finals appearance 5X all nba 1st team 11X all star

His accolades would destroy Barkley's, yet he wouldn't be close to top 20 all time? what a joke powerglove is, if Dirk were a black guy from ATL he would be challenging top 20 all time right now

Showtime

12-15-2010, 08:13 PM

How many MVP's who have 10+ all star appearances aren't in the top 40 all time? What about those that also scored 30k points?

How many 2X MVP's that led a team to a title aren't top 20 all time?

Barkley is top 20 all time and played NO defense..lets compare resumes

Barkley 1X MVP 1X Finals appearance 5X all nba 1st team 11X all star

Dirk 1XMVP 1X Finals apperance 4X all nba 1st team 10X all star and he's still in his prime

Ya clearly Dirk is nowhere near top 30 all time :roll:

Dirk with another title has

2X MVP 1 Championship 2X Finals appearance 5X all nba 1st team 11X all star

His accolades would destroy Barkley's, yet he wouldn't be close to top 20 all time? what a joke powerglove is, if Dirk were a black guy from ATL he would be challenging top 20 all time right now
I'm curious: do you think Nash is better than Dirk?

YouCallILose

12-15-2010, 08:15 PM

I'm curious: do you think Nash is better than Dirk?

No I do not, Nash has had more help and hasn't gone as far as Dirk

ginobli2311

12-15-2010, 08:24 PM

I'm curious: do you think Nash is better than Dirk?

LOL. no. nash is not as good as dirk.

lets clear up a few things. when i say "you either double dirk or get torched"...i am talking most of the time. of course he does not do this every single game or even every single playoff series. again. i could list off 4 or 5 playoff series for the top 10 players of all time that did not play that great. at least 4 or 5. christ....why is everything either black or white with you people on here?

look. for me it comes down to this. if somebody held a gun to my head and said you have to choose either dirk or pau to build a franchise around for 10 to 12 years. who do you take? and who give you the best chance to win a title? i'd definitely take dirk. its not even a question for me.

now. if the question was....who would you rather have next to an elite scoring guard for 12 years. it would be a tougher decision but i'd still probably go with dirk.

and to clarify. the above is based on the 12 best years of their careers. not how good they were as a rookie or anything like that. what will ultimately be their 10 or 12 best years.

if you would honestly take pau in the first example then i think you are extremely biased, but i respect your opinion.

so agree to disagree.

ginobli2311

12-15-2010, 08:31 PM

also. calling kobe and gasol equal in value to the lakers shows your bias again.

at times gasol is more valuable than kobe....even for some stretches in the playoffs.

but overall? nope. they just aren't in the same class as a player or impact.

and i'm the biggest kobe hater in the world according to ISH and even I would never make a statement like that. we get it. you love gasol. awesome.

but he's not as valuable or as responsible for the lakers titles as kobe bryant. thats just non-sense.

PowerGlove

12-15-2010, 08:37 PM

How many MVP's who have 10+ all star appearances aren't in the top 40 all time? What about those that also scored 30k points?

Except for the fact he hasn't scored 30k points.

How many 2X MVP's that led a team to a title aren't top 20 all time?
Lebron James? You ever heard of him?:facepalm Also, when has Dirk led a team to title? This makes no sense. You are hinging your whole argument on something that isnt even likely to happen. Stop.

Barkley is top 20 all time and played NO defense..lets compare resumes
His defense was nothing to write home about just like Dirk's, lets not forget how he was one of the most dominate rebounders ever.

Barkley 1X MVP 1X Finals appearance 5X all nba 1st team 11X all star

Dirk 1XMVP 1X Finals apperance 4X all nba 1st team 10X all star and he's still in his prime
You do realize these are only one facet of greatness right? No one is claiming Allen Iverson as top twenty player or top 30 even though he has 1 Finals appearance, 1 MVP, 3 All-NBA first teams and he's an 11 time All-Star. SMH.

Ya clearly Dirk is nowhere near top 30 all time :roll: Stunning evidence.

Dirk with another title has Dirk with another title? Where is his first? How do you get another when you never had one? Stop making a fool of yourself, Dirk getting a championship this late is his career is unlikely to be frank.

2X MVP 1 Championship 2X Finals appearance 5X all nba 1st team 11X all star
Nice fictional scenario, if Kobe won three more titles........ I'm talking about right now.

His accolades would destroy Barkley's, yet he wouldn't be close to top 20 all time? what a joke powerglove is, if Dirk were a black guy from ATL he would be challenging top 20 all time right now
That would make sense if.... no that would never make sense. Stick to durant's ts% please.

dallaslonghorn

12-16-2010, 04:55 AM

What people need to understand about Dirk is that he was basically created in a lab by this eccentric coach from Germany ... this guy had some very intriguing ideas about basketball and Dirk was his vessel for trying them ... we're talking some real Mr. Miyagi type stuff here.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1724406,00.html

As a former physicist / basketball player, he had a mathematical perspective on the game.

From the Time article: He has developed a series of formulas that may reveal the optimum arc for jump shots, using a combination of player height, arm length and release point.

dallaslonghorn

12-16-2010, 05:02 AM

I was at the Mavs/Warriors and Mavs/Jazz games last week, and both times, when both those teams made runs in the fourth quarter, Dirk just took over.

He said, alright y'all, let's stop messing around.

This is really simple -- I am going to station myself 15 feet from the basket. Then I am going to wave my hand in the air. This is your signal to give me the ball. You will pass me the ball. Now everyone will vacate the area and station themselves along the three-point line. I will either back-down or face-up my defender, either way I will slowly make my way towards the basket.

At this point, if the defense does not send an extra man to double team, I will have positioned myself anywhere from 5-8 feet from the basket. I will fade away from my defender and release an uncontested parabolic jump-shot that I almost never miss.

Let's repeat this process five or six times. I am getting an open look, I am getting fouled or am I getting one of my teammates an open look along all the three-point line -- and they (Terry, Kidd, Butler) can all hit 3's!

Mavs win! Mavs win!

ginobli2311

12-16-2010, 10:08 AM

another game. another dominant dirk in the last 3 minutes of a close game. this is something gasol simply can't do consistently like dirk can. that is what separates them.

dirk has proven he can take over games and playoff series can come through in the clutch time and time again. gasol hasn't and i don't think he has that ability. certainly not the same ability that dirk has.

Jacks3

12-16-2010, 11:23 AM

Dirk is a dominant superstar and MVP type player.

Gasol isn't even close to that level.

Thumdar

12-16-2010, 01:32 PM

Dirk is sick ~ a machine, but he's no closer.

dallaslonghorn

12-16-2010, 02:59 PM

Dirk is sick ~ a machine, but he's no closer.

That's funny b/c as someone who watches A LOT of Mavs games, I feel like Dirk is the best "closer" in the league.

If the Mavs are up 2 with 10 seconds -- you are going to need to hit two 3's just to tie -- because Dirk is hitting ALL HIS FT's ... I saw somewhere he's a 95% FT shooter in the fourth quarter.

It's like -- you give him the ball with the lead he's Mariano Rivera -- the game is shortened. What makes the Mavs so cool is they have TWO of these guys in Dirk and Terry who pretty much never miss FT's. We have the best "bull-pen" in the NBA lol.