The "Stats-Padder"

[jlauber]

I am getting so sick of reading about Chamberlain being labeled a "stats-padder."

Let's get the FACTS straight, shall we.

Wilt gets accused of "stats-padding" in his 61-62 season because he played 48.5 mpg. BUT, those that accuse of him of that fail to mention that Wilt has the top-SEVEN seasons in MPG in NBA HISTORY. They fail to mention that he AVERAGED 45.2 MPG over his ENTIRE CAREER. They fail to mention that Chamberlain AVERAGED 47.2 MPG over his ENTIRE Playoff CAREER (160 games.) They fail to mention that Wilt, in his LAST season, at age 36, ranked THIRD in the NBA in MPG...AND, in that same post-season, he AVERAGED 47.1 mpg.

Furthermore, had Wilt been so inclined, he could have SCORED FAR more in his career. Instead, he continued to do whatever his COACH's asked of him. In his first seven seasons, he AVERAGED 39.4 PPG...COMBINED. In his LAST game of his LAST "scoring" season, in the 65-66 game five of the ECF's, he put up a 46-34 game against Russell.

His new coach in the 66-67, Alex Hannum, asked Wilt to facilitate on the offensive end. The result was that Wilt's scoring dropped from 33.5 ppg down to 24.1 ppg. From the 66-67 season thru the 68-69 season, Wilt averaged 24.1 ppg, 24.3 ppg, and 20.5 ppg. Was it because he could no longer score? Well, after Rick Barry led the NBA in scoring in the 66-67 season, he "thanked" Wilt for "letting him" win the scoring title. Furthermore, Wilt had the HIGH games in the 66-67 (58 point game), 67-68 (52, 53, 53, and 68), and 68-69 seasons (60 and 66.)

And, when he wanted to score in those seasons, he did. For instance, near the end of the '67-68 season, he wanted to show the Lakers, who were interested in him, that he could still score. He put up a 53 point game. The Lakers did trade for him, but his new coach, Butch Van Breda Kolf, wanted Wilt to defer to West and Baylor in the Laker offense. Wilt complied. However, when SI ran an article claiming that Wilt could no longer score, he erupted for a 60 point game the very next day. And, he followed that up with a 66 point game (on 29-35 shooting) a few days later.

Continuing, when the Lakers fired Van Breda Kolf, following his incompetent decision to keep Wilt on the bench in game seven of the Finals, they brought in Joe Mullaney before the 69-70 season. Mullaney immediately went to Wilt and asked him to be the focal point of the offense. Wilt responded by averaging 32.2 ppg over the course of the first nine games (with games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42 and 43 points.) Unfortunately, Chamberlain suffered a devastating knee injury in that ninth game (33 points on 13-13 shooting BTW.) And, while he came back WAY AHEAD of even the most optomistic medical opinion, he was nowhere near 100%, and in fact, it affected his lateral mobility to the point that he was never quite the same offensively after that.

Having said that, though, had Wilt just used his massive strength and size, he could easily have scored much more even after that injury. However, he was a "gentle giant", and seldom abused his incredible power.

In any case, had Chamberlain wanted to score, he could have put the career ppg average out of sight.

BTW, I also find it interesting that Bill Simmons accused Wilt of "stats-padding" in the year in which he led the NBA in assists. Yes, Wilt wanted to lead the NBA in assists. That was one of his pre-season goals (he had finished third in 66-67.) BUT, how did his "stats-padding" passing affect his team? They RAN AWAY with the BEST record in the league in 67-68 (they finished 62-20, while Boston was a distant second at 54-28.)

And, there have been a couple of posters here who have accused Wilt of "stats-padding" in his monumental 62-63 season, when, despite Wilt LEADING the NBA in 15 of the 22 major statistical categories, his TEAM finished at 31-49. Of course, they will not mention that 35 of those losses were by single digits, or that the average differential was only -2.1 ppg.

NOR, will they accuse Kareem of "stats-padding" in his 71-72 season, when he LED the NBA in mpg at a career high of 44.2. Kareem averaged 34.8 ppg that season, on a team that went 63-19, and had a differential of +11.1 ppg. However, when Kareem played on the 40-42 Lakers, he "only" played 41.2 mpg, and "only" scored 27.7 ppg. So, he could play extended minutes when his team obviously DIDN'T need him to, but he couldn't do it when they desperately needed him to do so.

No DOUBLE STANDARD there.

[magnax1]

Lots of stars are stat padders, and Wilt is no exception.

[All Net]

For some reason I thought this thread was about Lebron when I saw the headline.

[N0Skillz]

Can you give us the Avg height of BBall players when he played?

[jlauber]

Can you give us the Avg height of BBall players when he played?

The average starting center in 1960 was 6-10. In 1970 it was 6-11. Furthermore, in 2010, it was about 7-0.

BTW, height has had no bearing on rebounding titles.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Yeah, playing every minute in 20, 30, 40, even 50 point blowouts and debating his stats with the official scorer isn't stat-padding, ok. :roll:

As far as Wilt scoring so much....who says that was best for his team? He didn't win until he cut back his scoring dramatically, and even in his '67 season which was among the best ever, IMO, he didn't even come close to leading the team in scoring in the playoffs, he was tied for 3rd for the playoffs, 5 ppg behind Hal Greer and in the finals, he was the team's 5th leading scorer.

Maybe Wilt would've won more had he played that way all along. Then again, this is the same guy who said he preferred losing sometimes, which wasn't exactly a good attitude. He said you have to learn how to lose sometimes, but as George Steinbrenner said "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser".

[Batz]

The average starting center in 1960 was 6-10. In 1970 it was 6-11. Furthermore, in 2010, it was about 7-0.

BTW, height has had no bearing on rebounding titles.
And league FG% and avg rpg for centers?

[jlauber]

Can you give us the Avg height of BBall players when he played?

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100727234728AAZxTUR


Another common misperception is that Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain played against only 6'6" white centers. That is completely false. Here are the NBA players from 1960-1972 6'11" or taller who played at least 3 years in the NBA: (list does not include Wilt Chamberlain)

Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 7'2"
Dennis Awtrey: 6'11"
Walt Bellamy: 6'11"
Tom Boerwinkle: 7'0"
Nate Bowmen: 6'11"
Mel Counts: 7'0"
Walter Dukes: 7'0"
Jim Eakins: 6'11"
Ray Felix: 6'11"
Hank Finkel: 7'0"
Artis Gilmore: 7'2"
Swede Halbrook: 7'3"
Reggie Harding: 7'0"
Bob Lanier: 6'11"
Jim McDaniels: 6'11"
Otto Moore: 6'11"
Dave Newmark: 7'0"
Rich Niemann: 7'0"
Billy Paultz: 6'11"
Craig Raymond: 6'11"
Elmore Smith: 7'0"
Chuck Share: 6'11"
Ronald Taylor: 7'1"
Nate Thurmond: 6'11"
Walt Wesley: 6'11"

[jlauber]

And league FG% and avg rpg for centers?

Wilt played in the NBA when the LEAGUE AVERAGE for FG% was between .410 to .456.

He had SEASONS where he outshot the LEAGUE AVERAGE by margins of .244 and .271. No one else has come close to those margins, in any era.

As far as rebounding goes. Take Wilt out of the equation (and his ELEVEN rebounding titles), and there have only been THREE other LEGITIMATE seven-footers who had led the NBA in rebounding. David Robinson (one time), Kareem (one time), and Motumbo (twice.) That is IT.

AND, there has never been a 7-3+ center to ever do it.

BTW, the year Kareem won the rebouning title, he beat out 6-9 Cowens, 16.9 rpg to 16.0. 6-7 Wes Unseld finsihed third, and 6-7 Paul Silas finsihed 4th. Oh, and BTW again, Wilt routinely CRUSHED ALL of those guys in rebounding...even late in his career.

[Thescore53]

too much reading stats padding then :blah :blah :blah :blah

and i would say bosh patted his stats alot last year.

[jlauber]

I also found it fascinating that there have been those that have pointed out HALVES of games in which Wilt was outplayed, and his team down by big margins in the first half. They claim that he simply "padded" his stats in the second halves of those games, which made his numbers look much better.

NYCelt84 posted a game in which Wilt led a second half comeback from a 21 point deficit, which resulted in a two point win (against Russell and Boston BTW.)

In any case, instead of applauding Wilt for not giving up, they rip him for continuing to play. Of course, can you imagine how the press would have shredded Wilt had he just went to the bench in blowout losses?

Once again, there was a DOUBLE-STANDARD for Wilt. Damned if he did, and damned if he didn't. I also like Psileas comment on that comeback win, too, when he said that if Wilt had played brilliantly, and they won by 12 or more points, that he would have been called a "stats-padder" as well.

[MasterDurant24]

I also found it fascinating that there have been those that have pointed out HALVES of games in which Wilt was outplayed, and his team down by big margins in the first half. They claim that he simply "padded" his stats in the second halves of those games, which made his numbers look much better.

NYCelt84 posted a game in which Wilt led a second half comeback from a 21 point deficit, which resulted in a two point win (against Russell and Boston BTW.)

In any case, instead of applauding Wilt for not giving up, they rip him for continuing to play. Of course, can you imagine how the press would have shredded Wilt had he just went to the bench in blowout losses?

Once again, there was a DOUBLE-STANDARD for Wilt. Damned if he did, and damned if he didn't. I also like Psileas comment on that comeback win, too, when he said that if Wilt had played brilliantly, and they won by 12 or more points, that he would have been called a "stats-padder" as well.
This. How are you going to degrade a man for continuing to play? As evidenced of the amount of minutes he played, he clearly wasn't an injury risk. So what's the point of sitting him down? You always go with what's working, and clearly, Wilt was working.

[jlauber]

This. How are you going to degrade a man for continuing to play? As evidenced of the amount of minutes he played, he clearly wasn't an injury risk. So what's the point of sitting him down? You always go with what's working, and clearly, Wilt was working.

Not only that, but he ALWAYS played heavy minutes, even late in his career, and when he was clearly not trying to set scoring marks.

He led the NBA in MPG NINE times. He has the SEVEN highest SEASONS in NBA HISTORY. His CAREER average was 45.2 mpg, but even more remarkable, he averaged 47.2 mpg over the course of his ENTIRE post-season CAREER (160 games.)

Great post BTW.

[branslowski]

All in all...Wilt wouldn't get nearly those numbers playing in this era...With ACTUAL comp...But w/e...Im bias towards that era, so I disqualify myself from these threads.

[MasterDurant24]

All in all...Wilt wouldn't get nearly those numbers playing in this era...With ACTUAL comp...But w/e...Im bias towards that era, so I disqualify myself from these threads.
Was Nate Thurmond, Walt Bellamy, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Willis Reed, Bob Pettit, Jerry Lucas, and Tom Heinsohn not actual competition? All hall of fame bigmen.

[PHILA]

With ACTUAL comp...
Competition? We are currently suffering through what is perhaps the worst era of centers the NBA has ever seen.

[Fatal9]

Can you give us the Avg height of BBall players when he played?
Only three other rotation players in the entire league (ie players who played 20+ mpg) were over 6'9 in Wilt's famous 50 ppg season. The league was also 68% white as well. The lane was also only 12 feet. This is usually masked by giving a decade long list and including many of the late 60s/early 70s centers (including ABA ones). Any attempts to equate that sort of competition (or the stats) to today are nonsense.

[MasterDurant24]

Only three other rotation players in the entire league (ie players who played 20+ mpg) were over 6'9 in Wilt's famous 50 ppg season. The league was also 68% white as well. The lane was also only 12 feet. This is usually masked by giving a decade long list and including many of the late 60s/early 70s centers (including ABA ones). Any attempts to equate that sort of competition (or the stats) to today are nonsense.
Some of the big men that are considered the best defenders(Wes Unseld, Ben Wallace, Dennis Rodman, Bobby Jones, Charles Oakley, and Russell himself) were 6'9 and under.

[PHILA]

Any attempts to equate that sort of competition (or the stats) to today are nonsense.Just as attempting to equate the competition of today to that of his peak years with the 76ers is nonsense. :applause:

[jlauber]

Only three other rotation players in the entire league (ie players who played 20+ mpg) were over 6'9 in Wilt's famous 50 ppg season. The league was also 68% white as well. The lane was also only 12 feet. This is usually masked by giving a decade long list and including many of the late 60s/early 70s centers (including ABA ones). Any attempts to equate that sort of competition (or the stats) to today are nonsense.

Of course, when the NBA widened the lane before the 64-65 season, to 16 feet (and aimed at Wilt) Wilt was averaging 39 ppg when he was traded to the Warriors.

In the following season, he averaged 33.5 ppg, on a then record .540 FG%, in a league that shot .433. BTW, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, and Russell were four of the centers in a nine team league (Wilt, of course, being one of them.) All-Star Zelmo Beaty was another one.

Wilt had at least one 60+ point game against Bellamy, and very likely two. He had high games of 58 and 52 against Reed. He had a high game of 45 against Thurmond (as well as multiple 30+ games.) And he had 24 40+ games against Russell, with FIVE 50+ point games...and even a 62 point game (on 27-45 shooting.)

Clearly, in his PRIME, he could score against ANYONE.

[branslowski]

Just a question to the Wilt Team here...Im confused...But do you think Wilt would avg 50ppg and 20reb in this era?

[Bird]

You would have a great argument if there was no valid proof that Wilt time and time again would tip in others' shot, further padding his scoring and rebounding statistics(this is what would later be referred to as offensive goaltending).

Not to mention, he was a selfish enough stat padder, that when he wanted to lead the league in assists per game, would refuse to shoot the ball for ENTIRE halves of games, instead constantly forcing the ball to lesser skilled players.

Plus, he had that whole never wanting to foul out of a game in his entire career streak, so once he had 4 fouls, he basically became a useless defender and a weaker rebounder.

But other than that, no, Wilt wasn't a stat padder.

[PHILA]

Just a question to the Wilt Team here...Im confused...But do you think Wilt would avg 50ppg and 20reb in this era?

No way.

[MasterDurant24]

Just a question to the Wilt Team here...Im confused...But do you think Wilt would avg 50ppg and 20reb in this era?
Of course not. I say 32 and 15. His athletic domiance, length, height, and skills would just elevate him over the competition.

[jlauber]

You would have a great argument if there was no valid proof that Wilt time and time again would tip in others' shot, further padding his scoring and rebounding statistics(this is what would later be referred to as offensive goaltending).

Not to mention, he was a selfish enough stat padder, that when he wanted to lead the league in assists per game, would refuse to shoot the ball for ENTIRE halves of games, instead constantly forcing the ball to lesser skilled players.

Plus, he had that whole never wanting to foul out of a game in his entire career streak, so once he had 4 fouls, he basically became a useless defender and a weaker rebounder.

But other than that, no, Wilt wasn't a stat padder.


Offensive Goal-Tending was already a rule by the time Wilt joined the NBA, in 1958 (but it was aimed at Wilt.)

Yes, he led the league in assists in the 67-68 season...and his TEAM had the best record in the league by a mile.

How about him worrying about fouling out?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

[QUOTE]In the 1972 NBA Finals, the Lakers again met the New York Knicks; the Knicks were shorthanded after losing Willis Reed to injury, and so, undersized 6'8" Jerry Lucas had the task to defend against the 7'1" Chamberlain.[88] However, prolific outside shooter Lucas helped New York to win Game 1, hitting 9 of his 11 shots in the first half alone; in Game 2, which the Lakers won 106

[branslowski]

IDk, again, im bias towards that era so this can be taken with a grain of salt...But from watching youtube clips, ESPN Classics, NBATV games of Wilt and his era...It just looked as if he was playing against not so good unatheletic players.

(Im pretty sure you will show height charts or names of players you've read about in books or something).

That Era just looks slow...We could plave DJ Mbenga in that era, and he avg's 22reb pg and about 15ppg.

[ThaRegul8r]

Just a question to the Wilt Team here...Im confused...But do you think Wilt would avg 50ppg and 20reb in this era?

Why do people harp on this when he did it once?

Why don't we also hear any questions about, say, would Kobe score 81 in a game, outscore a team 62-61 after three quarters, average 35 in a season, score 50 in four straight games, average 40 in a month, before the rules were specifically changed to increase scoring and benefit perimeter players?

[quote]Just how is the game being called these days?

New Jersey Nets executive Rod Thorn, a longtime expert on NBA rules, acknowledges that last season the league adopted a dramatic shift in how it interpreted the rules of the game.

No longer would a defensive player on the perimeter be allowed to use his hand, a barred arm or any sort of physical contact to impede or block the movement of either a cutter or a ball handler.

In a recent interview, Thorn said that the NBA had changed the rule to give an advantage to the offensive player.

[jlauber]

Just a question to the Wilt Team here...Im confused...But do you think Wilt would avg 50ppg and 20reb in this era?

Based on FGAs and FTAs in the 61-62 season, and reduced down to 2010 levels, he would averaged about 37 ppg and 18 rpg. BUT, the LEAGUE AVERAGE FG% in 61-62 was .426, while it was .461 in 2010...so his FG% would likely rise...so maybe 39 ppg. Of course, he probably would only average about 43-44 mpg,...so 35-17 is reasonable...on about .550 shooting.

Having said that, though, Wilt's PRIME was in the mid-60's. Had he been asked to carry the load offensively in the 66-67 season, he might have put up 40-50 ppg even then.

Of course, we have no real idea what Wilt would do in today's era. All we can go by was the fact that he dominated his peers like no other player in NBA HISTORY.

I love these numbers...There have been 127 30-30 games in NBA HISTORY...and Wilt has 109 by HIMSELF. There have been 61 40-30 games in NBA HISTORY, and Wilt has 55 of them. And there have been FIVE 50-40 games in NBA HISTORY, and Wilt has ALL of them.

[Bird]

Offensive Goal-Tending was already a rule by the time Wilt joined the NBA, in 1958 (but it was aimed at Wilt.)

Yes, he led the league in assists in the 67-68 season...and his TEAM had the best record in the league by a mile.

How about him worrying about fouling out?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

re: Offensive Goaltending - I understand the rule was in effect when Wilt joined the league - it was created BECAUSE of him - but that doesn't mean it stopped him from violating it.

re: assists + best record in the league - That would matter, had they won the NBA title that season, now wouldn't it?

re: fouling out - You singled out ONE game in his ENTIRE career to try to debunk that? I know you are better than that, i've read your posts.

Don't try to get me wrong, i'm not saying Wilt isn't a great player (I have him at #3 personally), but he was a notoriously selfish player (read his 1973 autobiography, "Wilt: Just Like Any Other 7-Foot Black Millionaire Who Lives Next Door" and you will read all about his selfish tendencies) and someone who enjoyed padding his stats, even if it hurt his team.

If I can locate it, I will bring up a quote from Bill Russell on Wilt, pertaining to winning and losing.

[Sarcastic]

Every player stat pads to some degree. Every single one.

[Bird]

IDk, again, im bias towards that era so this can be taken with a grain of salt...But from watching youtube clips, ESPN Classics, NBATV games of Wilt and his era...It just looked as if he was playing against not so good unatheletic players.

(Im pretty sure you will show height charts or names of players you've read about in books or something).

That Era just looks slow...We could plave DJ Mbenga in that era, and he avg's 22reb pg and about 15ppg.

There were many underrated PF/C in the league in the late 50's to early 70's and a lot of them will continue to fly under the radar because of pure lack of defensive statistics that were not kept on record.

I would LOVE to know how many blocks Russell and Chamberlain averaged per season and over their entire career (not to mention, I would love to know how many quadruple doubles that Wilt had, if you count when he would go pass crazy and grab 10 plus assists a game).

[Bird]

Yo, I gotta head out. It's 8am here in Afghanistan and my shift is over, so I am headed to bed.

I will check this thread out again later tonight, I look forward to a good, educational debate.

[jlauber]

re: Offensive Goaltending - I understand the rule was in effect when Wilt joined the league - it was created BECAUSE of him - but that doesn't mean it stopped him from violating it.

re: assists + best record in the league - That would matter, had they won the NBA title that season, now wouldn't it?

re: fouling out - You singled out ONE game in his ENTIRE career to try to debunk that? I know you are better than that, i've read your posts.

Don't try to get me wrong, i'm not saying Wilt isn't a great player (I have him at #3 personally), but he was a notoriously selfish player (read his 1973 autobiography, "Wilt: Just Like Any Other 7-Foot Black Millionaire Who Lives Next Door" and you will read all about his selfish tendencies) and someone who enjoyed padding his stats, even if it hurt his team.

If I can locate it, I will bring up a quote from Bill Russell on Wilt, pertaining to winning and losing.

Wilt did whatever his COACH's asked him to do. His COACH asked him to score 50 ppg in the 61-62 season. Hannum asked him to PASS in the 66-67 season. Van Breda Kolf asked him to lforego his offense so that Baylor could mis-fire in 68-69. And his COACH Sharman asked him to concentrate on defense, rebounding, and starting the break in '72.

I have read all the quotes. There may be some truth to some of them, and I sure that there was exaggeration to many, as well. In any case, Wilt was NOT a "loser." He played on 13 playoff teams. 12 of them made it to the Conference Finals. SIX of them made it to the Finals. He played on SIX teams that won their conference. He played on FOUR teams that had the best record in the league. He played on FOUR 60+ win teams. He played on TWO champions. And he played on TWO of the greatest teams of all-time...both of which he anchored.

[MasterDurant24]

IDk, again, im bias towards that era so this can be taken with a grain of salt...But from watching youtube clips, ESPN Classics, NBATV games of Wilt and his era...It just looked as if he was playing against not so good unatheletic players.

(Im pretty sure you will show height charts or names of players you've read about in books or something).

That Era just looks slow...We could plave DJ Mbenga in that era, and he avg's 22reb pg and about 15ppg.
Larry Bird was slow. Kevin McHale was slow. Dave Cowens was slow. Yao is slow. Chris Mullin was slow. John Stockton is slow. After his injuries, Bill Walton was slow. Having good fundamentals makes up for being slow. And they had good fundamentals back then.

Nate Thurmond, Willis Reed, Gus Johnson, Elgin Baylor, John Havlicek, and Wilt did play in that era, all athletic players. Now I'm not a total expert on the 60's myself, you would have to ask JLauber about that. But I definetly don't think that the era was as unathletic and slow as people think.

[PHILA]

IDk, again, im bias towards that era so this can be taken with a grain of salt...But from watching youtube clips, ESPN Classics, NBATV games of Wilt and his era...It just looked as if he was playing against not so good unatheletic players. Did you see the first half of the 1972 Lakers - Bucks matchup on ESPN Classic? If not here it is. You can see a 35 year old Chamberlain with a surgically repaired knee (after suffering a more severe knee injury than Greg Oden has) holding Kareem well below his averages in the first half before he got into foul trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATdV8e8ZUlc

http://i55.tinypic.com/2lcqs94.jpg




By all accounts Kareem at his peak was a stronger player and a better athlete than "Superman" Dwight Howard. Here is an example of his elevation on a dunk at age 33 (1980).

http://i53.tinypic.com/2vw8uog.gif


And in college?

http://i51.tinypic.com/10r632u.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/348m7n5.jpg



Here below we can see Chamberlain embarrassing Gus Johnson in the '69 all star game (who by all accounts was physically built like "LeBron James", except much stronger). Wilt makes the "backboard smasher" look like a child. A few possessions later (8:32 mark) you can see his defensive abilities on display against Hall Of Famer Oscar Robertson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycO_MYuF89k#t=7m08s



You can see him rejecting a two handed dunk attempt by 6'11 250 lb Hall Of Famer Walt Bellamy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTRjFYwF_RQ#t=2m46s



Below we can see his perform 2 fake passes at the 4:30 mark while being guarded by big strong 6'9, 240 lb C-F Ray Scott. Following a power move to the basket he draws 4 defensive players leading to the open shot for Cunningham.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48zv5



Below we can see Chamberlain as an old man outclass a big, strong younger man in Artis Gilmore. For perspective Robert Parish has stated that Shaq O'Neal was the strongest player the league had seen since Gilmore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1R6UI738MI

He could jump pretty well too.


http://i53.tinypic.com/2wgt5pj.jpg



Here are a couple of examples of him overpowering IMO the 2nd best defensive player in NBA history and a very strong man (much stronger than "Superman" Dwight Howard) Hall Of Famer Nate Thurmond.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keLsXWNLCF0 (at the 0:34 mark and the 0:40 mark)



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Wilt_Chamberlain_Nate_Thurmond.jpg/489px-Wilt_Chamberlain_Nate_Thurmond.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/292xmra.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/r1jyuu.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/264nqy9.jpg

[PHILA]

Toldeo Blade - Nov 28, 1956 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=340UAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wAAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7302,4611332&dq)

'It seems Wilt has an unorthodox method of shooting free throws. The big guy takes aim at the basket from several feet behind the line. Then he takes about three giant steps, leaves his feet before reaching the line, and stuffs the ball through the hoop.

Under the old rule, it was perfectly legal as Wilt never touched the floor before letting go of the ball. In addition his percentage was fantastic.

"Why, he would have had a free throw percentage of 100," said [Tex] Winter. "He never missed."

Incidentally the rules committee did not mention Chamberlain by name as a reason for the change. The rule change was made, according to the committee, "to prevent freak activity."'



The Miami News - Nov 7, 1962 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1XYyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2OkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2229,2425147&dq)

'He can clean and jerk a 375-lb. weight, run the quarter mile in 47s, and high-jump over 6-11.'


Sports Illustrated - March 2, 1964 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075691/2/index.htm)

'The St. Louis Hawks' 6-foot-9, 240-pound Zelmo Beaty, for example, found out recently that he can no longer take Chamberlain's great strength for granted. Unable to slow Wilt down with conventional maltreatment, Beaty tried to yank his shorts off. Chamberlain, who can press 400 pounds without breathing hard, makes it a point to control his temper, primarily because he is genuinely afraid he might kill somebody. Beaty's unethical yank, however, was too much. Wilt flicked an arm, and Beaty flew across the floor like a man shot out of a cannon. Referee Mendy Rudolph rushed over to him and said: "For God's sake, stay down, man. Don't even twitch a muscle." Beaty didn't twitch, and he is still active in the NBA.'





NFL legend Jim Brown publicly stating that he'd rather get in a boxing ring with heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali as opposed to an untrained Wilt Chamberlain.


The Evening Independent - Sep 15, 1966 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_dkLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QlcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7163,2399606&dq)

'Chamberlain, like Brown, is a great athlete and seriously considered becoming a fighter a year and a half ago. Wilt and Jimmy have competed against each other in foot races and tests of strength.

"I'd rather fight Clay than Wilt," Brown said. "Chamberlain's too big and he's too strong, but I'm no fighter. I'm saving whatever fighting I've got to do for the Dirty Dozen."'



St. Petersburg Times - Feb 25, 1969 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=gPoNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w3sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7049,3815406&dq)

'Wilt Chamberlain is probably the first giant in history to be able to break 50 seconds in the 440, win a Big Eight high-jump title and be able to set a pick. In fact, he may not be a true giant. Medicine has taken the mystery out of gigantism. Most giants of the past were physical weaklings. Some were 90 percent legs. Wilt Chamberlain, by common consent, is the world's strongest man.'


He was even stronger during his later years in life.

http://i43.tinypic.com/11icsox.gif

http://i48.tinypic.com/mk9pts.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/25pqslt.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2dqttet.jpg

The Evening Independent - Jan 6, 1967 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=TSMoAAAAIBAJ&sjid=S1cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2229,911381&dq)

"I'd bet you $1,000 I could lift 1,000 pounds," the 76ers singular 7-1 center said, "I have. I've also hand-wrestled two men at the same time and beat them. And there's nothing I'd like to do better than play pro football."



Ocala Star-Banner - Sep 17, 1975 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_R8TAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lAUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6593,3084647&dq)

'As inconspicuously as possible for a 7-foot 1-inch impresario, Wilt Chamberlain stopped by the New York Knicks' office for a quick social hello and now he was waiting for an elevator that would take him upstairs to the Madison Square Garden arena floor. When the elevator doors opened, Wilt stepped back as two husky workmen struggled to wheel a heavily loaded dolly into the corridor. On the dolly there were 10 big cartons of envelopes. For perhaps a minute the workmen pushed and pulled, trying to get the wheels of the dolly across the uneven gap between the elevator and the floor, huffing and puffing, they finally dropped their hands in frustration. "You look," Wilt said, "like you need a little help," His massive arms unencumbered by a chocolate sleeveless shirt, he reached down, grabbed the rope attached to the dolly and lifted the load into the corridor as if it had been a baby in a stroller. The workmen stared and thanked him. Wilt smiled, entered the elevator and the doors closed.

"I never saw anything like that," one of the workmen said. "These carton each weight about 80 pounds. This is an 800 pound load."

That's the approximate weight of four Knick teammates. And if Wilt were to join the Knicks for the approaching National Basketball Association season, he believes he could lift the team into contention with the Boston Celtics for the Atlantic Division title.'




I believe jlauber recently posted a John Havlicek quote on a physical confrontation Chamberlain had with NFL player and part time professional wrestler Big Daddy Lipscomb in the early 60's. Ended with Lipscomb on the floor and Chamberlain muttering, "Nobody messes with Wilt."


http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/09/01/lipscomb.jpg

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/09/01/lipscomb365x445.jpg

[97 bulls]

Wilt did whatever his COACH's asked him to do. His COACH asked him to score 50 ppg in the 61-62 season. Hannum asked him to PASS in the 66-67 season. Van Breda Kolf asked him to lforego his offense so that Baylor could mis-fire in 68-69. And his COACH Sharman asked him to concentrate on defense, rebounding, and starting the break in '72.

I have read all the quotes. There may be some truth to some of them, and I sure that there was exaggeration to many, as well. In any case, Wilt was NOT a "loser." He played on 13 playoff teams. 12 of them made it to the Conference Finals. SIX of them made it to the Finals. He played on SIX teams that won their conference. He played on FOUR teams that had the best record in the league. He played on FOUR 60+ win teams. He played on TWO champions. And he played on TWO of the greatest teams of all-time...both of which he anchored.
Now hold on j. I do remember reading a quote in which wilt stated that he was gonna lead tthe league in assists. And reading that wilt was selfishly getting those assists.

[97 bulls]

Toldeo Blade - Nov 28, 1956 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=340UAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wAAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7302,4611332&dq)

'It seems Wilt has an unorthodox method of shooting free throws. The big guy takes aim at the basket from several feet behind the line. Then he takes about three giant steps, leaves his feet before reaching the line, and stuffs the ball through the hoop.

Under the old rule, it was perfectly legal as Wilt never touched the floor before letting go of the ball. In addition his percentage was fantastic.

"Why, he would have had a free throw percentage of 100," said [Tex] Winter. "He never missed."

Incidentally the rules committee did not mention Chamberlain by name as a reason for the change. The rule change was made, according to the committee, "to prevent freak activity."'



The Miami News - Nov 7, 1962 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1XYyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2OkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2229,2425147&dq)

'He can clean and jerk a 375-lb. weight, run the quarter mile in 47s, and high-jump over 6-11.'


Sports Illustrated - March 2, 1964 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075691/2/index.htm)

'The St. Louis Hawks' 6-foot-9, 240-pound Zelmo Beaty, for example, found out recently that he can no longer take Chamberlain's great strength for granted. Unable to slow Wilt down with conventional maltreatment, Beaty tried to yank his shorts off. Chamberlain, who can press 400 pounds without breathing hard, makes it a point to control his temper, primarily because he is genuinely afraid he might kill somebody. Beaty's unethical yank, however, was too much. Wilt flicked an arm, and Beaty flew across the floor like a man shot out of a cannon. Referee Mendy Rudolph rushed over to him and said: "For God's sake, stay down, man. Don't even twitch a muscle." Beaty didn't twitch, and he is still active in the NBA.'





NFL legend Jim Brown publicly stating that he'd rather get in a boxing ring with heavyweight champion Muhammad Ali as opposed to an untrained Wilt Chamberlain.


The Evening Independent - Sep 15, 1966 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_dkLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QlcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7163,2399606&dq)

'Chamberlain, like Brown, is a great athlete and seriously considered becoming a fighter a year and a half ago. Wilt and Jimmy have competed against each other in foot races and tests of strength.

"I'd rather fight Clay than Wilt," Brown said. "Chamberlain's too big and he's too strong, but I'm no fighter. I'm saving whatever fighting I've got to do for the Dirty Dozen."'



St. Petersburg Times - Feb 25, 1969 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=gPoNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w3sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7049,3815406&dq)

'Wilt Chamberlain is probably the first giant in history to be able to break 50 seconds in the 440, win a Big Eight high-jump title and be able to set a pick. In fact, he may not be a true giant. Medicine has taken the mystery out of gigantism. Most giants of the past were physical weaklings. Some were 90 percent legs. Wilt Chamberlain, by common consent, is the world's strongest man.'


He was even stronger during his later years in life.

http://i43.tinypic.com/11icsox.gif

http://i48.tinypic.com/mk9pts.jpg

http://i53.tinypic.com/25pqslt.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2dqttet.jpg

The Evening Independent - Jan 6, 1967 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=TSMoAAAAIBAJ&sjid=S1cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2229,911381&dq)

"I'd bet you $1,000 I could lift 1,000 pounds," the 76ers singular 7-1 center said, "I have. I've also hand-wrestled two men at the same time and beat them. And there's nothing I'd like to do better than play pro football."



Ocala Star-Banner - Sep 17, 1975 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_R8TAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lAUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6593,3084647&dq)

'As inconspicuously as possible for a 7-foot 1-inch impresario, Wilt Chamberlain stopped by the New York Knicks' office for a quick social hello and now he was waiting for an elevator that would take him upstairs to the Madison Square Garden arena floor. When the elevator doors opened, Wilt stepped back as two husky workmen struggled to wheel a heavily loaded dolly into the corridor. On the dolly there were 10 big cartons of envelopes. For perhaps a minute the workmen pushed and pulled, trying to get the wheels of the dolly across the uneven gap between the elevator and the floor, huffing and puffing, they finally dropped their hands in frustration. "You look," Wilt said, "like you need a little help," His massive arms unencumbered by a chocolate sleeveless shirt, he reached down, grabbed the rope attached to the dolly and lifted the load into the corridor as if it had been a baby in a stroller. The workmen stared and thanked him. Wilt smiled, entered the elevator and the doors closed.

"I never saw anything like that," one of the workmen said. "These carton each weight about 80 pounds. This is an 800 pound load."

That's the approximate weight of four Knick teammates. And if Wilt were to join the Knicks for the approaching National Basketball Association season, he believes he could lift the team into contention with the Boston Celtics for the Atlantic Division title.'




I believe jlauber recently posted a John Havlicek quote on a physical confrontation Chamberlain had with NFL player and part time professional wrestler Big Daddy Lipscomb in the early 60's. Ended with Lipscomb on the floor and Chamberlain muttering, "Nobody messes with Wilt."


http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/09/01/lipscomb.jpg

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/09/01/lipscomb365x445.jpg
I did some research on lipscomb, he was a drug addict that died in his mid 30s. I wouldn't brag about beating up a crackhead. And I seen women lift bigger weights than the little ass thing wilt was curling.

[PHILA]

And I seen women lift bigger weights than the little ass thing wilt was curling.
He was posing for the photograph. :facepalm

[G.O.A.T]

There is no doubt Wilt was out to pad his stats.

I do think sometimes he put his own goals above the team, but very rarely on purpose.

Still it was not his idea to score 50 a game in a season or 100 in a single game, he did as his coaches asked for much of his early career until they lost his respect.

The only time I know Wilt pursuit of statistics hurt his team is in 1968 when he set out to win the assists title. He alienated a few teammates on a group that had amazing chemistry the year before and was not able to turn on the scoring enough (despite being the greatest scorer ever in his MVP prime) in three consecutive games when his team needed it most. He could have carried them the rest of the way up 3-1 against a beaten up old Boston team, but didn't and then never maned up and took the blame. Instead he's quick to point out how bad his teammates shot.

[97 bulls]

He was posing for the photograph. :facepalm
Then he should've put on tights and complete the outfit. if he was gonna pose with those little ass weights

[PHILA]

The only time I know Wilt pursuit of statistics hurt his team is in 1968 when he set out to win the assists title. He alienated a few teammates on a group that had amazing chemistry the year before and was not able to turn on the scoring enough (despite being the greatest scorer ever in his MVP prime) in three consecutive games when his team needed it most. He could have carried them the rest of the way up 3-1 against a beaten up old Boston team, but didn't and then never maned up and took the blame. Instead he's quick to point out how bad his teammates shot.

I really want to see these games from the '68 series. Some people have accused him of doing what LeBron did this year in the playoffs. I doubt it, but then again his heart was not with that team or city anymore for whatever reason and he wanted to be in Los Angeles. Perhaps to be closer to his father living in L.A. (who apparently was terminally ill)? Did Wilt mention in any of his autobiographies the reason for this trade? In addition to the broken ownership agreement, I've heard stories that Ramsay and Wilt had a very strong dislike for each other (after Wilt realized Ramsay would badmouth his game behind his back). He turned down a player-coach role with the 76ers.



From Wilt's autobiography, Just Like Any Other 7-Foot Black Millionaire Who Lives Next Door.

I didn’t go into the 1967-68 season with any great enthusiasm. I’ve always been the kind of person who needs specific concrete goals and challenges; with them, I’m the most competitive guy in the world; without them, I tend to be lackadaisical. I’m just not naturally competitive and aggressive. I don’t have a killer instinct. In the past, I’d always been able to set challenging goals for myself—whether it was selling $200 worth of junk in one day as a kid or leading the league in scoring as an NBA rookie. But by my ninth year in the NBA, there really weren’t many goals I hadn’t already reached. I’d led the league in damn near everything more times than I could count. I’d broken my own records year after year. I’d even been on a championship team. What else could I do? With my attitude toward Philadelphia and [owner] Kosloff, I just wasn’t in the mood to work hard at dreaming up some goal. I couldn’t just go through the motions, though; I had too much pride in myself—and too much affection and respect for my teammates to do that. So I decided I’d lead the NBA in assists. That was the only category, except free throws, that I’d never led the league in, and it was the one category that no other center had ever led in either. For basketball’s greatest scorer to lead the league in assists would really be something, I thought. It would be like Babe Ruth leading the game in sacrifice bunts or Jim Brown leading the league in blocking.




From Dr. Jack Ramsay's 2004 book, Dr. Jack's Leadership Lessons Learned From a Lifetime in Basketball.

Another "do-over" decision I still think about was more of a delayed decision, but nonetheless had a negative result. It centered on the man I regard as the most talented, intelligent, complex, and interesting of all the players I've known - Wilt Chamberlain. Prior to the 1966-67 season, in Philadelphia, Wilt had set all kinds of scoring records (he had been the league's perennial leader in scoring and rebounding, at one time averaging over 50 points a game for a season), but he had won no championships.

The Boston Celtics ruled then, having won eight titles in a row. Wilt seemed to sense that this Sixers team had the player personnel, in addition to new coach, Alex Hannum, that together could reach that goal. Under Hannum's influence, Wilt became a true team player, scoring a modest - for him - 24 points a game, grabbing 24 rebounds, and dealing just under 8 assists. The Sixers set a league record at the time for most wins with a 68 and 13 mark, and went on to win the 1967 championship, Wilt's first in his eight seasons in the NBA.

I was general manager of that Sixers team and got to know Wilt quite well. When Alex Hannum left the Sixers to coach Oakland in the ABA, I talked with many candidates to replace him. Among them were Frank McGuire, John Kundla, and Earl Lloyd, each of whom could have had the job, but declined it for various reasons. Chamberlain often stopped by the Sixers office to inquire how the coach search was going. When time went by without a selection, he told owner Irv Kosloff and me that he'd be interested in becoming player/coach if I would help him with the Xs and Os. The suggestion took us both by surprise and we said that we'd give it some thought. We agreed to meet again in a week, after Wilt had returned from a trip to the West Coast.

I liked the idea. I thought that Wilt would play with added intensity knowing his name was on the line, and I was confident that I could help with the technical aspects of the job. Koz and I talked it over and agreed that we'd make a deal with Chamberlain to be the team's coach. But when Wilt returned, he said that he had changed his mind, that he was not going to play in Philadelphia again, and he demanded a trade to a West Coast team - to Seattle, Los Angeles, or San Diego. When we indicated that we weren't interested in trading him, he said that he'd jump to the ABA team in Los Angeles. (The ability of NBA players to leave their existing teams began in 1967 when Rick Barry, a free agent at the time, left the San Francisco Warriors of the NBA to join Oakland of the newly formed ABA. Barry was forced by a court order to sit out a year, but then played for Oakland in 1968-69, and played three more years in the ABA for other teams before returning to the NBA with the Golden State Warriors in 1972. With that precedent established, NBA players who were not under contract looked to enhance their bargaining position by threatening to "jump" to the ABA. Chamberlain knew that he was playing with a strong negotiating chip.)

I could hardly believe what I was hearing. I had come to the meeting brimming with enthusiasm, prepared to fill the coaching void, and suddenly found myself, still without a coach and with the prospect of losing the most powerful player in the game. Koz, who was accustomed to Wilt's negotiating ploys (he only did one-year contracts, had no agent, and did all the negotiating himself), tried to push the discussion aside. But Wilt said that he was serious about his decision and that in now way would he play for Philadelphia again. He walked out of the meeting leaving me with my mouth hanging open.

We eventually worked out a deal with the Lakers - the only team Wilt later said he would go to - and moved on. Had Luke Jackson not torn and Achilles tendon, the deal might not have been so detrimental. (Jackson was a powerhouse rebounder, who could score inside and from the perimeter; but he never regained his ability to run and jump like he once had, and the Sixers started a downward trend.)

Thinking back, I've often wondered what the outcome would have been if I had jumped on Wilt's first offer to coach the team. Might we have finalized a deal before he went to the West Coast? Or, when Wilt visited the Sixers office to ask about the progress in hiring a new coach, could I have suggested become player/coach to him? Or, could the Sixers have kept him if we had not caved in when he threatened to jump to the ABA, and told him instead that he was staying in Philly and that the player/coach opportunity was still open?

[jlauber]

There is no doubt Wilt was out to pad his stats.

I do think sometimes he put his own goals above the team, but very rarely on purpose.

Still it was not his idea to score 50 a game in a season or 100 in a single game, he did as his coaches asked for much of his early career until they lost his respect.

The only time I know Wilt pursuit of statistics hurt his team is in 1968 when he set out to win the assists title. He alienated a few teammates on a group that had amazing chemistry the year before and was not able to turn on the scoring enough (despite being the greatest scorer ever in his MVP prime) in three consecutive games when his team needed it most. He could have carried them the rest of the way up 3-1 against a beaten up old Boston team, but didn't and then never maned up and took the blame. Instead he's quick to point out how bad his teammates shot.

The more that I research the '68 ECF's, the more I am inclined to believe that either Wilt was hurting very badly (he was nursing a variety of injuries...and then he was noticeably hobbled in game five with a thigh bruise), or there may have been some kind of conspiracy involved (either by Sixer ownership, or by Wilt, himself.)

I have never read anything by Wilt that would suggest that there was a conspiracy, but, it was well known that he and the new Sixer ownership were not getting along. Wilt stated that he had a verbal agreement with former owner Ike Richmond to become part owner, but when Richmond died suddenly, the new ownership group did not acknowledge it.

And, it was just unfathomable that Wilt, who normally TOUCHED the ball on the offensive end some 15 times per quarter, only TOUCHED the ball a TOTAL of NINE times in the entire second half, and only TWICE in the 4th quarter.

Either Wilt was going to prove to Sixer ownership that they could not win without his offense, or else the Sixer owners secretly told the players to not pass to Wilt, and prove that they could win without Wilt's offense. Still, you would think that someone would have come forward at some point. And, if Wilt were "dogging it", why would he still grab 34 rebounds?

I really think that he was playing hurt, though.

And he wasn't the only one, either. Cunningham did not play at all in that series. And then Jackson went down in game five (he continued to play, but he was worthless.) And I just read where Wali Jones was also playing injured.

When you take all of that into account, and then the mysterious lack of touches, as well as Wilt's teammates shooting 33% in that game seven...and it is actually pretty remarkable that they lost a game seven by only four points.

[nycelt84]

Wilt wanted Frank McGuire to be Philly's coach for the 68-69 season if Philly wanted him to return at all. He felt only McGuire or Bill Sharman could coach that Philly team and he kind of threw his teammates under the bus blaming their lack of conditioning for Philly's failure to repeat. I will post the article outlining this tomorrow.

[Pointguard]

[QUOTE=PHILA]
From Wilt's autobiography, Just Like Any Other 7-Foot Black Millionaire Who Lives Next Door.

[I]I didn

[PHILA]

Wilt wanted Frank McGuire to be Philly's coach for the 68-69 season if Philly wanted him to return at all. He felt only McGuire or Bill Sharman could coach that Philly team and he kind of threw his teammates under the bus blaming their lack of conditioning for Philly's failure to repeat. I will post the article outlining this tomorrow.
Article I read from '68 stated that he wanted nobody other than McGuire, Bill Sharman, or himself. Ramsay & Kosloff did indeed agree on Wilt being player-coach, but according to Ramsay, Wilt changed his mind after a trip to the West Coast. However there have been conflicting reports on this.



I think that sums up Wilt's strengths and weaknesses better than anything else written about him. He is incredibly honest. For years people looked at the Kwame Browns, Ed Curry's and Darko Millicic and wondered why it didn't click. Very few guys, are very competitive. Yet are in very competitive situations because of other things (size, height, propensity, fathers did it, etc.) They can't get up every morning to go at other people. Very few people master the skills of their craft and have natural killer instinct to match. In Basketball its Jordan, Soccer its Pele, Boxing its Ali. The super international guys that the world recognizes as great - among the most popular people on the planet in their time.

Wilt found a way around it: Focus and goals. This explains the many, many, records yet the small number of championships. In the end you have to find your motivation. Let's be honest, if he had 50 ppg as his goal for 5 years he might have been able to pull it off. He wasn't flawless. He was big, strong, skilled, athletic and goal oriented. He used his strengths and did things that perhaps no other athlete in his sport might accomplish. He knew who he was and where his strengths were. He managed to make himself somewhat mythological in the process. His spirit was not that of a warrior, more like a skilled, compassionate guy that indulges in sports.
Indeed as Sonny Hill said, "Wilt was an athlete first, and a basketball player second."

[Pointguard]

In the end you have to find your motivation. Let's be honest, if he had 50 ppg as his goal for 5 years he might have been able to pull it off.

If you are not on Boston, Miami and LA you should be stat padding, cause you resume looks like straight garbage anyway. I think every center in the game now should make it their goal to lead the league in rebounds. If they have to play forty minutes a game to pull it off, ask the coach if they can. These guys now aren't motivated. I believe Wilt could get 18 boards a game in today's game. Since none of the centers now have fundamentals, will power or the desire to contend for boards they should at least have goals or pretend that they are building a resume. Don't even mention skills. Heck it a center can roll for forty two minutes a game I'd be impressed.

Screw the negative connotation that stat padding is applicable to guys who bust their butts to reach their goals. If a guy can pull off a great number and he earns it, take your complaints elsewhere. Worry about padding when its given to another player without earning it. If Wilt goes out and plays the full game and he likes to feel like he's earned his pay then it isn't padding. If the owner feels that he can peg Wilt in for 40 minutes and only needs a lite sub at that position then it isn't your place to question it. I know, its the prima donna age and guys need rest these days and we should apply the rule of rest and leisure above hard work. What is this? The day and way of the wussies. Man up! Be about getting it done. I caaaan't stand this wimpy, hater age - weak on work yet still hate those who get paid.

[ZenMaster]

The average starting center in 1960 was 6-10. In 1970 it was 6-11. Furthermore, in 2010, it was about 7-0.

BTW, height has had no bearing on rebounding titles.

How about the average height off ALL the players?

[evilmonkey]

For some reason I thought this thread was about Kobe when I saw the headline...

[jlauber]

I don't want to turn this post into ripping Russell here, but those that knew both Wilt and Russell, would tell you that Wilt was a much better human being. Now, from what I have read lately, it appears that Russell has mellowed and is no as bitter as he once was.

I only bring this up because so much is made of Russell's "killer Instinct", and Wilt's "loser mentality." Russell was the victim of horrible racial discrimination for much of his life. It got so bad that he, himself, became a racist. He hated the city of Boston, and didn't even show up for his first retirement ceremony.

Meanwhile, Wilt grew up in a mixed neighborhood, and while he faced some racism in his life, it was far less than what Russell (and many other's like Oscar dealt with.)

Russell made bad financial decisions, and at one time was nearly broke. He once refused to sign autograph's, even for teammates, but after he retired, he sold much of his memoribila for a large sum. On the other hand, Wilt was a very successful businessman, and was very wealthy when he died.

And Wilt donated a ton to charitable causes. After his death his will donated well over a million dollars to various charities, and he also left KU with some $650,000.

And while he took a huge hit with his "20,000" women comment, it must be noted that he was never accused of rape, or battery, or adultery. In his own words, he never knowingly bedded a married woman, and he also never initiated any of his liasons. Those that knew Wilt would tell you that women flocked to him. In fact the 20,000 number was not his, but a friend's, who owned a hotel in Hawaii. This friend counted 23 different women going to Wilt's room in a 10 day period. He multiple two women a day for 30 years (Wilt was nearly 50 at the time), and rounded off to 20,000. In any case, Chamberlain had many women. Furthermore, he deeply regretted the comment.

I always found it perplexing too, that Wilt was ripped so often by the media, and conversely, Russell was seen as "heroic", and yet those in the media, almost to a man (or woman) would tell you that Wilt treated them much better in their interviews.

I could post quotes, but it is not necessary. You can google Russell and you can google Wilt, and you will see them for yourself.

And once again, it is not my intention to bash Russell here. I think that much of his upbringing influenced his play on the court. He did have an assassin's mentality. And he was a deeply intelligent man. He STUDIED the game as much as anyone whoever played or coached.

Wilt, on the other hand, was a "gentle giant." Here again, there are many quotes from peers, along the lines such as (and I am paraphrasing because I don't want to take the time to look them up), "thankfully he was a nice guy, or he would killed players", or "if he would have had jus one-third the intensity that Russell had", or "if he had dunked as hard as he could have, he would have broken opponents' arms and wrists." There are hundreds, and probably thousands of quotes out there that basically claim that Wilt was a "nice guy"...probably too "nice."

Not only that, but Wilt took a horrible beating in his career, particularly early, but he seldom retaliated. As he became bigger and stronger, the less it bothered him, but there was always a double standard. There were fouls on other players, and then there were the fouls that called guarding Wilt. Needless to say, even those that officiated Wilt's games admitted that they didn't call everything (or else it would have been an endless parade to the FT line for Chamberlain.)

As far as Wilt's "loser mentality" goes,..I really don't think he "accepted" losing. But, to him, it was not "life and death." He didn't throw up before games like Russell, and he didn't dwell on his losses. Furthermore, I really believe that he endured so many close calls in his career, that he became very defensive about his "loser" label.

Even at KU he lost a title game in triple OT. And BTW, there was very little talent on that team, either. In his junior year he missed three games with a serious infection, and his team lost all three. He was "drafted" while in high school in a territorial draft, and unfortunately for him, it would be a last place team by the time he arrived.

In his first year he was just abused by entire opposing teams, and as I mentioned earlier, he took a horrible beating. In his first post-season he injured his hand taking a swing at Heinsohn, and the injury was so severe that it affected his shooting. His team lost the next two games. He did come back in a must win game five with a monumental 50-35 game against Russell, but, despite a good game in game six, his team lost.

In his second year, he was the ONLY player on his team to play well in the playoffs, (which would become a common theme), and his team was upset by Syracuse.

In his third year, his immortal 50 ppg season, he carried his team to a game seven, two-point loss against the 60-20 Celtics and their SIX HOFers. In that last game, there was a controversial goal-tend, and then the time-keeper let the time run out instead of giving Philly a bout 3-4 seconds at the end of the game.

He lanquished on just pathetic rosters for the next two-and-half seasons, but he still guided one of them to the Finals in '64, where, by all accounts, he played maginificently...but his overmatched teammates were just too much to overcome, and his TEAM was beaten, 4-1.

He was traded midway thru the 64-65 season, and in the post-season, he led the 40-40 Sixers to a 3-1 romp over the 48-32 Royals. And, against the 62-18 Celtics, he amazingly got his team to a game seven. In that game, he scored six of the last eight points, and brought his team back from a 110-101 deficit to 110-109 with only a few seconds left. "Clutch" Russell hit a guidewire with his inbounds pass, and Philly had a chance to win. However, "Havlicek stole the ball."

In the '65-66 season, he finally had quality teammates, and the Sixers finsihed with the best record in the league. BUT, while he played well, his teammates were absolutely pathetic, and his team was easily beaten by Boston, 4-1.

He finally won a title the following season. And it looked like the Sixers were poised to start a "mini-dynasty" of their own. However, injuries just decimated them in the '68 playoffs, and then Wilt mysteriously hardly saw the ball in game seven, and his teammates once again fired blanks, and once again...another close game seven loss.

He was traded to the Lakers before the 68-69 season, and everyone was expecting another title. But, LA was coached by Butch Van Breda Kolf, and he and Wilt butted heads almost immediately. And while the Lakers finsihed with a 55-27 record, they were not a cohesive team. They were favored over the 48-34 Celtics, and had Egan held onto the ball in game four, they would have won that series, 4-1. Instead, he lost it, and Sam Jones hit a miraculous shot at the buzzer to win the game. In game seven, Wilt injured his knee and he had to come out. He sat out for a couple of minutes, and then asked to go back in. Van Breda Kolf refused, and the Lakers lost game seven by two points.

He was injured early on in the 69-70 season, and his season was written off by the medical experts. He rehabbed on his own, and miraculously returned late in the season. He took the Lakers to the Finals, where they faced the 60-22 Knicks and their FOUR HOFers. Even at far less than 100%, he battled MVP Reed to a draw in the first four games, and the series was tied 2-2. And he was crushing Reed in game five, when Reed went down with a thigh injury. The Lakers were leading by ten points when Reed was injured, and they extended it to 13 at the half. BUT, as NY Times writer Leonard Koppett would write the next day...the officials allowed the Knicks to commit near manslaugter on Wilt and West in the second half, and NY came away with a stunning 107-100 win. The series went back to LA, and with Reed out, Wilt put up a massive 45-27 game, and the Lakers tied the series with a 135-13 win. However, as everyone knows by know, Reed hobbled out just before the opening tip, and the fired up Knicks hit 15 of their first 21 shots en route to a 27 point halftime lead. Wilt played well, but Frazier went nuts with a 36 point, 19 assist game, and he also hounded West numerous first half turnovers. Reed, with his 4-3 game was the labeled the "hero", while Wilt, only four months removed from major knee surgery, and with his 21-24 game, was tagged as the "goat."

So MANY frustrating losses. Is it no wonder that Wilt was defensive about "losing"?

Still, that Reed series was an example of the difference between Russell and Wilt. Veteran writer Dick Shaap observed that Wilt may have, subconsciously at least, let up on Reed in that game seven. Wilt had a "Goliath Complex", and was a "gentle giant." Perhaps he was afraid of really injuring Reed.

Russell, IMHO, would have siezed the opportunity. He probably would have blocked Reed's first two shots to send a message to the Knicks that there would be no miracle tonight. And, I am certain that Russell would have went at Reed at every opportunity.

So, if you want to use that as an example...then yes, Russell was a "winner", and Wilt was a "loser." But, the reality was, with just a few points here-or-there, and Wilt could have won another FIVE rings. And had injuries not killed his team's in '71 and '73, he might have won yet another TWO more.

In any case, it was not like Wilt "choked" in the post-season. And it was not as if his TEAM's were blown out, either.

[evilmonkey]

Great post JLauber.

[97 bulls]

Come on j. Wilt was a jerk. I saw that after how he reacted when glen rice broke his record in the all-star game. Or how in just about every interview I saw of him, hed be taking shots at anybody that he believed threatened his legacy. He was an extremely jealous man. And I feel he had to exaggerate things in order make himself bigger than he already was.

This is why I wish I was around to watch him personnaly. Cuz therese soo many things that you're stretching. Unfortunately, the only guy that I know that could rebuttal you on wilt is my dad and he's not a big computer guy. But I've asked him about wilt and he feels that while wilt was great, jordan was better. I asked him about wilts hundred point game and he shed alot of light on it. Such as the opposition calling timeout so wilt could get more opportunities to score. Not to mention the fact that it wasn't taped. Which to me is suspect.

All really, all that I hear from you J is a bunch of stats that aren't put into context, amazing paul bunyan like myths, alot of excuses, a multitude of "almost wins" and "ifs" and "shoulda coulda wouldas", and biased opinions. Like I said, most of us are just too young to argue the other side.

[Yung D-Will]

I don't want to turn this post into ripping Russell here, but those that knew both Wilt and Russell, would tell you that Wilt was a much better human being. Now, from what I have read lately, it appears that Russell has mellowed and is no as bitter as he once was.

I only bring this up because so much is made of Russell's "killer Instinct", and Wilt's "loser mentality." Russell was the victim of horrible racial discrimination for much of his life. It got so bad that he, himself, became a racist. He hated the city of Boston, and didn't even show up for his first retirement ceremony.

Meanwhile, Wilt grew up in a mixed neighborhood, and while he faced some racism in his life, it was far less than what Russell (and many other's like Oscar dealt with.)

Russell made bad financial decisions, and at one time was nearly broke. He once refused to sign autograph's, even for teammates, but after he retired, he sold much of his memoribila for a large sum. On the other hand, Wilt was a very successful businessman, and was very wealthy when he died.

And Wilt donated a ton to charitable causes. After his death his will donated well over a million dollars to various charities, and he also left KU with some $650,000.

And while he took a huge hit with his "20,000" women comment, it must be noted that he was never accused of rape, or battery, or adultery. In his own words, he never knowingly bedded a married woman, and he also never initiated any of his liasons. Those that knew Wilt would tell you that women flocked to him. In fact the 20,000 number was not his, but a friend's, who owned a hotel in Hawaii. This friend counted 23 different women going to Wilt's room in a 10 day period. He multiple two women a day for 30 years (Wilt was nearly 50 at the time), and rounded off to 20,000. In any case, Chamberlain had many women. Furthermore, he deeply regretted the comment.

I always found it perplexing too, that Wilt was ripped so often by the media, and conversely, Russell was seen as "heroic", and yet those in the media, almost to a man (or woman) would tell you that Wilt treated them much better in their interviews.


I've always heard that at the end of the day Wilt seemed like a much happier person then both Russell and Kareem for different reasons.

And what Jlaubar said about Russell I've heard wilt say in interviews where he's asked about Russell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjDw3azfZWI#t=3m44s

Here's the interview linked it directly to the part where he talks about Russell. He talks about how it seems like he was much happier with himself off the court then Russell was in the end.

[Psileas]

Like the OP said, it's somewhat moot to put Wilt on a different category of stat-padding compared to his peers based on minutes played in games judged early, as long as more players did exactly the same thing, including Bill Russell, who played in just as many, if not more, blowouts. Hell, it was such a given that some of Russell's (and some of Wilt's) teams didn't care about acquiring a second center at all. It's been pointed out, for example, how much of a difference Russell did by showing Wilt's numbers in the few games he faced Boston without Russell. No doubt, but how couldn't there be a chaotic difference, since without Russell, the Celtics were an All-Asterix team?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1962.html

Who the heck would guard Wilt without Russell? Heinsohn? He was like the Cliff Robinson of his day. Sanders? Ever seen a slightly stronger Michael Cooper guard a 7-1 monster? Loscutoff? Yes, he was strong, but only 6-7 with shoes on.

Same with the Warriors. No center at all besides Wilt, and the next taller players were scrubs:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHW/1962.html

The Warriors were lucky Wilt was an ironman, else there is no telling what would happen if they had faced any healthy team with a decent big without him.

The Royals seemed to have a similar (though slightly milder) dependency on Robertson, filling their roster with good/big forwards and limited passing guards (Adrian Smith was a good player, but clearly a shooting guard):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CIN/1962.html


As for the other tendency, of Wilt arguing with stat-keepers, the only difference with today's stars is that once, say, Rodman outrebounds Barkley 20-15, he won't see the figures reversed or once LeBron gets a 40/10/10, he won't read that he got 40/8/7. If this ever happens today, watch out. Like Wilt, a lot, if not most of, today's players are fully aware of their stats and it shows. Once LeBron needs a few rebounds to get a monstrous triple-double, he starts chasing every rebound like Rodman. Every time Kobe gets a few assists away, only then he remembers his boyhood idol, Magic. Remember Jordan's streak of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games? 2 of them were "10-10" games, and in both he played 43 minutes. 4 more were games when he reached exactly 10 in his least prolific category. Up to that point, he had only 4 triple doubles in 65 games, so it's a safe bet that these triple-doubles didn't happen randomly. Remember the 1991 season, when he was told that he'd be getting fewer minutes of play and he started having huge scoring 1st quarters, whereas it was known that, for his standards, he was a "slow starter"? Coincidence?
Hell, recently there was an topic and a posted article about 1990 Ewing, a guy who never seemed to care all that much about huge stats and even he claimed that he doesn't pretend that he doesn't know/care about his game stats. Or, moving back to Wilt's time, another article revealed how Jerry Lucas was telling Embry to play more peripheral defense, so that he could easier chase down rebounds.

I won't even overanalyze the shots distribution of modern star players, in an era that is supposedly the most competitive ever-you wouldn't expect a star player to get 28-30% of his team's shots in an ultra-competitive era, would you? We see this in so many games, and nobody seems to bother and say anything, because we have been used to it. Maybe only if the star player has got at 6-20 shooting and it starts seeming apparent even to the most blinded ones that maybe it shouldn't be good for this player to get the ball at all.
Face it, most NBA stars are/were/will be notorious stat-padders. A lot of teams try to be built around a player's statpadding tendencies, instead of inserting the player to the team's philosophy (yeah, again, some competitive era...). Wilt was among the first and worst of the kind, but I laugh at any of the fans of the modern NBA who imply that only he pulled out such crap. I only give a point to those who dislike the modern NBA and any team that gives its superstar more than 18-20 shots per game.

[jlauber]

Come on j. Wilt was a jerk. I saw that after how he reacted when glen rice broke his record in the all-star game. Or how in just about every interview I saw of him, hed be taking shots at anybody that he believed threatened his legacy. He was an extremely jealous man. And I feel he had to exaggerate things in order make himself bigger than he already was.

This is why I wish I was around to watch him personnaly. Cuz therese soo many things that you're stretching. Unfortunately, the only guy that I know that could rebuttal you on wilt is my dad and he's not a big computer guy. But I've asked him about wilt and he feels that while wilt was great, jordan was better. I asked him about wilts hundred point game and he shed alot of light on it. Such as the opposition calling timeout so wilt could get more opportunities to score. Not to mention the fact that it wasn't taped. Which to me is suspect.

All really, all that I hear from you J is a bunch of stats that aren't put into context, amazing paul bunyan like myths, alot of excuses, a multitude of "almost wins" and "ifs" and "shoulda coulda wouldas", and biased opinions. Like I said, most of us are just too young to argue the other side.

Wilt had his flaws, to be sure. He was egotistical, no question about it. But he was also a very kind man. I took this quote from another link, but it is actually in Cherry's book on Wilt. And when I first read it, it brought tears to my eyes.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/445705-i-wanna-be-like-wilt-not-like-mike


One of the kinder superstars in NBA history was Wilt Chamberlain. He gave away tons of money to charities through the years, and left a considerable amount to charities in his will. He was also very giving of his time, not only while still an active player, but also throughout his retirement. One reason his autograph was not worth as much as a lot of other athletes (relative to their accomplishments) is that he signed autographs for just about everyone who ever asked him over the years.

He was usually not that good with answering mail. He'd get around to it, but it usually took a while.

One of Wilt's teammates was a fellow by the name of Paul Arizin.

Arizin was a great player in his time (career 1951-62) and is a Hall of Famer, in addition to being a top 50 player (as selected in 1996). He played 12 seasons, averaged 17 ppg as a rookie and more than 20 ppg in each of his other 11 seasons.

In 1993, Arizin's granddaughter Stephanie, unbeknownst to her family, wrote a letter to Wilt asking for an autograph. Stephanie was then 11 years old.

She had written to Wilt in care of the Lakers, and the letter was forwarded to the office of Wilt's attorney and best friend, Sy Goldberg. But because Goldberg's office had moved and Wilt was often inattentive to his mail, the letter was not even opened for THREE years.

When Wilt finally got around to reading it, he immediately called the then-14-year-old Stephanie in suburban Philadelphia, and Wilt and the young girl quickly established an unusual rapport.

Wilt later called Stephanie's father (the son of his former teammate Paul) at work to tell him how much he had enjoyed talking to Stephanie and apologized that it had taken him so long to respond. "She must have thought I was such a jerk, not answering a little girl's request," Wilt said... "I had to call her up and let her know what happened."

It was then that Michael Arizin (Stephanie's father and Paul's son) informed Wilt that, only a week before, Stephanie had been diagnosed with a brain tumor and had been given 12 to 18 months to live. She had never mentioned the illness in her conversations with Wilt.

Wilt promised to stay in touch with Stephanie on a regular basis. True to his word, Wilt spoke to Stephanie Arizin almost every Friday, often for an hour, during the last 15 months of her life. On July 30, 1997, Stephanie passed away at age 16.

Right after her death, Wilt, who was to live little more than two more years himself, sent this telegram:

To the Arizin family:
My sincerest condolences. I am here for you, all of you, if ever I am needed.
I may have tears in my eyes... I lost a friend who was full of strength and loved life passionately... From Stehpanie I realize that you're never too old to learn and never too young to teach. Her body may now be gone, but in my memory she can always be reached. I will forever rejoice in my memory of what she brought to my life in our very short time of friendship.
Love and peace,
"Dippy"
Wilt Chamberlain

A great story. No one really knew about this until Paul Arizin spoke at Wilt's funeral and told everyone assembled there what had happened with Stephanie.

In his will, Wilt left specific bequests ranging from $20,000 to $200,000 to close relatives, $50,000 each to Overbrook High School and the Sonny Hill Basketball League in Philly, and $100,000 to Operation Smile, a nonprofit group of doctors who perform reconstructive surgery on indigent children in the U.S. and developing countries.

After taxes were paid on the estate, Wilt also left $650,000 to Kansas University, and additional $1 million to operation smile and two million dollars to the Wilt Chamberlain Memorial Fund, a non profit organization based in Philadelphia.




In Cherry's autobiography on Wilt, he mentions KU honoring Wilt in 1998. Why so long? Wilt left Kansas after his junior year. Of course everyone knows about his soph season, when he led the Jay Hawks to a triple OT loss in the NCAA title game. He played again his junior year, but he had a severe infection, and missed three games. KU lost all three. And while the Hawks went 18-5, those losses killed any hopes a tourney bid. On top of all of that, Wilt grew tired of all of the stalling, and the triple-teams, and the packed zones, so he left early for the Globetrotters.

And because of that, he always felt that he let KU down. When he got word that KU wanted to retire his jersey in 1998, at halftime of a Jay Hawk game, he was deeply honored, and he decided he would go. However, he had his concerns. Going into the tunnel he turned to colleague Bill Mayer and asked, "what do you think?' (He was afraid he was going to be booed off the stage.) Mayer told him, "Well Dippy, I think it is going to be the damnest reception you ever saw."

Here is the link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbxrzeUIzpI

No one knew it at the time, but Wilt was already dying.Late in the game the university's athletic director advised Wilt that his police escort was waiting to take him away before he would be engulfed by fans. Wilt asked if he could stay and sign a few autographs. A table was set up.To everyone's amazement, Wilt stayed and signed autographs for over two hours...until every last one was signed.


There are some other touching stories in Cherry's book, and I do highly recommend it for those that are interested in Wilt's career.


I asked him about wilts hundred point game and he shed alot of light on it. Such as the opposition calling timeout so wilt could get more opportunities to score. Not to mention the fact that it wasn't taped. Which to me is suspect

Wilt never considered his 100 point game as close to to some of his other records. BTW, the opposition in that game did everything they could to PREVENT Wilt from scoing 100. They were stalling, and they were deliberately fouling Wilt's teammates to keep Wilt from getting the ball.

[MasterDurant24]

Wilt had his flaws, to be sure. He was egotistical, no question about it. But he was also a very kind man. I took this quote from another link, but it is actually in Cherry's book on Wilt. And when I first read it, it brought tears to my eyes.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/445705-i-wanna-be-like-wilt-not-like-mike




In Cherry's autobiography on Wilt, he mentions KU honoring Wilt in 1998. Why so long? Wilt left Kansas after his junior year. Of course everyone knows about his soph season, when he led the Jay Hawks to a triple OT loss in the NCAA title game. He played again his junior year, but he had a severe infection, and missed three games. KU lost all three. And while the Hawks went 18-5, those losses killed any hopes a tourney bid. On top of all of that, Wilt grew tired of all of the stalling, and the triple-teams, and the packed zones, so he left early for the Globetrotters.

And because of that, he always felt that he let KU down. When he got word that KU wanted to retire his jersey in 1998, at halftime of a Jay Hawk game, he was deeply honored, and he decided he would go. However, he had his concerns. Going into the tunnel he turned to colleague Bill Mayer and asked, "what do you think?' (He was afraid he was going to be booed off the stage.) Mayer told him, "Well Dippy, I think it is going to be the damnest reception you ever saw."

Here is the link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbxrzeUIzpI

No one knew it at the time, but Wilt was already dying.Late in the game the university's athletic director advised Wilt that his police escort was waiting to take him away before he would be engulfed by fans. Wilt asked if he could stay and sign a few autographs. A table was set up.To everyone's amazement, Wilt stayed and signed autographs for over two hours...until every last one was signed.


There are some other touching stories in Cherry's book, and I do highly recommend it for those that are interested in Wilt's career.



Wilt never considered his 100 point game as close to to some of his other records. BTW, the opposition in that game did everything they could to PREVENT Wilt from scoing 100. They were stalling, and they were deliberately fouling Wilt's teammates to keep Wilt from getting the ball.

I would say KAreem is the biggest jerk out of the three of them. You could just say he wanted his solitude and didn't like to be disturbed. I also think of Jordan as a very egotistical man.

[97 bulls]

I would say KAreem is the biggest jerk out of the three of them. You could just say he wanted his solitude and didn't like to be disturbed. I also think of Jordan as a very egotistical man.
Oh they all are jerks. And I can personnally vouch for kareem.

[nycelt84]

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B2owWZDpxyizYmYzMDBiZTUtNjIxOS00MTc4L WFlMWEtNjg3YjFhNWE5NDVh&hl=en&authkey=CPjMwfUC

Wilt wants Frank McGuire or someone comparable as coach and blames team for playoff loss.

[97 bulls]

Wilt had his flaws, to be sure. He was egotistical, no question about it. But he was also a very kind man. I took this quote from another link, but it is actually in Cherry's book on Wilt. And when I first read it, it brought tears to my eyes.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/445705-i-wanna-be-like-wilt-not-like-mike




In Cherry's autobiography on Wilt, he mentions KU honoring Wilt in 1998. Why so long? Wilt left Kansas after his junior year. Of course everyone knows about his soph season, when he led the Jay Hawks to a triple OT loss in the NCAA title game. He played again his junior year, but he had a severe infection, and missed three games. KU lost all three. And while the Hawks went 18-5, those losses killed any hopes a tourney bid. On top of all of that, Wilt grew tired of all of the stalling, and the triple-teams, and the packed zones, so he left early for the Globetrotters.

And because of that, he always felt that he let KU down. When he got word that KU wanted to retire his jersey in 1998, at halftime of a Jay Hawk game, he was deeply honored, and he decided he would go. However, he had his concerns. Going into the tunnel he turned to colleague Bill Mayer and asked, "what do you think?' (He was afraid he was going to be booed off the stage.) Mayer told him, "Well Dippy, I think it is going to be the damnest reception you ever saw."

Here is the link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbxrzeUIzpI

No one knew it at the time, but Wilt was already dying.Late in the game the university's athletic director advised Wilt that his police escort was waiting to take him away before he would be engulfed by fans. Wilt asked if he could stay and sign a few autographs. A table was set up.To everyone's amazement, Wilt stayed and signed autographs for over two hours...until every last one was signed.


There are some other touching stories in Cherry's book, and I do highly recommend it for those that are interested in Wilt's career.



Wilt never considered his 100 point game as close to to some of his other records. BTW, the opposition in that game did everything they could to PREVENT Wilt from scoing 100. They were stalling, and they were deliberately fouling Wilt's teammates to keep Wilt from getting the ball.
Im sorry. He said wilts team was fouling the other team to stop the clock. And they were passing up easy shots in order to get wilt the ball. For instance, theknicks would be quadrouple teaming wilt which means guys are open and they'd force it in to wilt still.

[jlauber]

Im sorry. He said wilts team was fouling the other team to stop the clock. And they were passing up easy shots in order to get wilt the ball. For instance, theknicks would be quadrouple teaming wilt which means guys are open and they'd force it in to wilt still.

He was right. The game was a circus in the 4th quarter. You can actually listen to that 4th quarter...

http://www.randomhouse.com/crown/wilt/

[Psileas]

Im sorry. He said wilts team was fouling the other team to stop the clock. And they were passing up easy shots in order to get wilt the ball. For instance, theknicks would be quadrouple teaming wilt which means guys are open and they'd force it in to wilt still.

Wilt's team started freezing the clock only after the Knicks had already started doing the same by intentionally fouling Warriors' players other than Wilt.

[Pointguard]

I've always heard that at the end of the day Wilt seemed like a much happier person then both Russell and Kareem for different reasons.

And what Jlaubar said about Russell I've heard wilt say in interviews where he's asked about Russell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjDw3azfZWI#t=3m44s

Here's the interview linked it directly to the part where he talks about Russell. He talks about how it seems like he was much happier with himself off the court then Russell was in the end.

Heads up: The link you have isn't about basketball.

I seen Wilt up close and the thing that stands out about him is his confidence. You can read comments from other seven footers that talk about how when Wilt walked in a room how he sucked the attention away from everybody else. He wasn't taller than some of them but had a bigger presence. You can tell by the recent statements revealed here that he knew who he was and he knew the role basketball played in his life. When you are ultra competitive about a game and take it personal what good does it do you when its over. Jordan was obviously the best in your time yet he got to the hall of fame and you can see he still had something to prove. He seemingly doesn't know how to identify himself with next phase of his life.

I seen Bill Russell from afar and he walks a bit hunched over and there is something defensive in the air. I think when you are super competitive it takes something away from you socially, in fact it has to. Russell went into a depression when he left basketball. You put that much meaning into a game I don't know if it serves you well. People who say winning is everything and it isn't so. I rather be happy and if I face stress let it be in the name of family or really meaningful things. Winning is always good but I understand the people that might have other goals, different priorities and strive for personal excellence and find personal integrity in real outcomes in their life.

I love watching KG. He really enjoys his job. He can fully get into his work. His obsession is his work. He loves it. He brings his hardhat, his soul, his fire and zest for what he does. He stives for excellence and finds ways to improve himself all the time. You rarely see that in any line of work. Would he had been a failure if he had not won it all? Wrong, he's won the second he plays. Even if he looses he's can still come to work the next day like only today matters. Or maybe he knows that he's winning everytime he's on the court. The more meaning you have the better life is.

[PHILA]

^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SKw2DR5Xbg#t=05m31s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSH0LuWTt2o#t=03m50s

[jlauber]

^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SKw2DR5Xbg#t=05m31s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSH0LuWTt2o#t=03m50s

Those videos just covered what Pointguard pointed out. Wilt was very content with his life after basketball, while Russell was very bitter. I have read that Russell has changed somewhat in the last few years, and hopefully that is true.

In any case, those that knew both of them would tell you that Wilt treated almost everyone much better.

[jlauber]

Like the OP said, it's somewhat moot to put Wilt on a different category of stat-padding compared to his peers based on minutes played in games judged early, as long as more players did exactly the same thing, including Bill Russell, who played in just as many, if not more, blowouts. Hell, it was such a given that some of Russell's (and some of Wilt's) teams didn't care about acquiring a second center at all. It's been pointed out, for example, how much of a difference Russell did by showing Wilt's numbers in the few games he faced Boston without Russell. No doubt, but how couldn't there be a chaotic difference, since without Russell, the Celtics were an All-Asterix team?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1962.html

Who the heck would guard Wilt without Russell? Heinsohn? He was like the Cliff Robinson of his day. Sanders? Ever seen a slightly stronger Michael Cooper guard a 7-1 monster? Loscutoff? Yes, he was strong, but only 6-7 with shoes on.

Same with the Warriors. No center at all besides Wilt, and the next taller players were scrubs:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHW/1962.html

The Warriors were lucky Wilt was an ironman, else there is no telling what would happen if they had faced any healthy team with a decent big without him.

The Royals seemed to have a similar (though slightly milder) dependency on Robertson, filling their roster with good/big forwards and limited passing guards (Adrian Smith was a good player, but clearly a shooting guard):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CIN/1962.html


As for the other tendency, of Wilt arguing with stat-keepers, the only difference with today's stars is that once, say, Rodman outrebounds Barkley 20-15, he won't see the figures reversed or once LeBron gets a 40/10/10, he won't read that he got 40/8/7. If this ever happens today, watch out. Like Wilt, a lot, if not most of, today's players are fully aware of their stats and it shows. Once LeBron needs a few rebounds to get a monstrous triple-double, he starts chasing every rebound like Rodman. Every time Kobe gets a few assists away, only then he remembers his boyhood idol, Magic. Remember Jordan's streak of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games? 2 of them were "10-10" games, and in both he played 43 minutes. 4 more were games when he reached exactly 10 in his least prolific category. Up to that point, he had only 4 triple doubles in 65 games, so it's a safe bet that these triple-doubles didn't happen randomly. Remember the 1991 season, when he was told that he'd be getting fewer minutes of play and he started having huge scoring 1st quarters, whereas it was known that, for his standards, he was a "slow starter"? Coincidence?
Hell, recently there was an topic and a posted article about 1990 Ewing, a guy who never seemed to care all that much about huge stats and even he claimed that he doesn't pretend that he doesn't know/care about his game stats. Or, moving back to Wilt's time, another article revealed how Jerry Lucas was telling Embry to play more peripheral defense, so that he could easier chase down rebounds.

I won't even overanalyze the shots distribution of modern star players, in an era that is supposedly the most competitive ever-you wouldn't expect a star player to get 28-30% of his team's shots in an ultra-competitive era, would you? We see this in so many games, and nobody seems to bother and say anything, because we have been used to it. Maybe only if the star player has got at 6-20 shooting and it starts seeming apparent even to the most blinded ones that maybe it shouldn't be good for this player to get the ball at all.
Face it, most NBA stars are/were/will be notorious stat-padders. A lot of teams try to be built around a player's statpadding tendencies, instead of inserting the player to the team's philosophy (yeah, again, some competitive era...). Wilt was among the first and worst of the kind, but I laugh at any of the fans of the modern NBA who imply that only he pulled out such crap. I only give a point to those who dislike the modern NBA and any team that gives its superstar more than 18-20 shots per game.

Damn that was a great post. So many well excellent points.

BTW, in Wilt's 61-62 season, he took 35% of his team's shots, while in '06 Kobe took 33% of his, and in '87 MJ took 32% of his. BUT, Wilt played 48.5 mpg, while Kobe played 41 mpg and MJ played 40 mpg. I suspect that in terms of percentage of shots taken while on the floor, that Wilt took no more than either.

Another point. Anyone can shoot the ball. BUT, it takes hardwork and effort to battle for rebounds. Some posters here like to diminish Wilt's numbers because for much of his career, he was the tallest player in the league. But, as history has shown, rebounding is NOT about height. If that were the case guys like Bol, Muresan, Bradley, Yao, Nevitt, Eaton, and Smits would have been getting far more than 5-10 rpg (or less.)

I mentioned it earlier, but for those that might have missed it, take Wilt and his ELEVEN rebounding titles out of the equation, and there have been THREE LEGITIMATE seven-footers (Hakeem was NOT 7-0) that have won a TOTAL of FOUR rebounding titles...in the HISTORY of the NBA. Motumbo won two, Robinson won one, and Kareem won one. And, in the year that Kareem won his lone rebounding title, he barely beat out 6-9 Cowens to win it. And behind Cowens was 6-7 Unseld, and 6-7 Silas.

I have always believed Russell to be 6-10, and not the oft-listed 6-9, but if we were to use 6-9, there have been 24 rebound titles won by players less than 6-10...out of 70 seasons. Even if you remove Russell, and include Wilt, the players who were 6-9 or less, won 19 rebound titles, while the 7-0+ players won 15. Players like 6-8 Rodman, 6-7 Wallace, 6-7 Cage, 6-7 Truck Robinson, 6-5 Barkley, 6-7 Unseld, and other's won rebounding titles.

Meanwhile, Shaq, at 7-1 and 325+ in his career, never won ONE. Players like 7-3 Sabonis, 7-2 Donaldson, 7-1 Duckworth, were not only tall, but big and powerful...and ZERO rebounding titles.

The facts were/are...there has NEVER been a player, 7-3+ or taller, who has even come CLOSE to winning a rebounding title. Take a look at the '87-88 season. 6-8 Charles Oakley and 6-7 Michael Cage led the NBA at 13.0 rpg. The top-10 only had ONE seven-footer, Roy Tarpley, at 11.8. Fat Lever, all 6-3 and 175 lbs, was 16th at 9.3 rpg. Taking a quick look, I counted some 35 7-0+ footers (many well over 7-0 BTW) in the league that year, and Lever outrebounded nearly all of them.

So, let's PLEASE put this MYTH to rest that Wilt won his rebounding (as well as his scoring, FG%, and assist) titles because of his HEIGHT. He won them because he was a phenomenal athlete and a HARD-WORKER.

[Bird]

Psileas and jlauber - Great, great posts gents.

Thanks to the knowledge on this site (and Bill Simmons' book) I have learned SO much about the history of the game (I am only 25 years old and never really cared about much pre-Larry Bird until more recently.

You have both been repped.

[PHILA]

Like the OP said, it's somewhat moot to put Wilt on a different category of stat-padding compared to his peers based on minutes played in games judged early, as long as more players did exactly the same thing, including Bill Russell, who played in just as many, if not more, blowouts. Hell, it was such a given that some of Russell's (and some of Wilt's) teams didn't care about acquiring a second center at all. It's been pointed out, for example, how much of a difference Russell did by showing Wilt's numbers in the few games he faced Boston without Russell. No doubt, but how couldn't there be a chaotic difference, since without Russell, the Celtics were an All-Asterix team?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1962.html

Who the heck would guard Wilt without Russell? Heinsohn? He was like the Cliff Robinson of his day. Sanders? Ever seen a slightly stronger Michael Cooper guard a 7-1 monster? Loscutoff? Yes, he was strong, but only 6-7 with shoes on.

Same with the Warriors. No center at all besides Wilt, and the next taller players were scrubs:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHW/1962.html

The Warriors were lucky Wilt was an ironman, else there is no telling what would happen if they had faced any healthy team with a decent big without him.

The Royals seemed to have a similar (though slightly milder) dependency on Robertson, filling their roster with good/big forwards and limited passing guards (Adrian Smith was a good player, but clearly a shooting guard):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CIN/1962.html


As for the other tendency, of Wilt arguing with stat-keepers, the only difference with today's stars is that once, say, Rodman outrebounds Barkley 20-15, he won't see the figures reversed or once LeBron gets a 40/10/10, he won't read that he got 40/8/7. If this ever happens today, watch out. Like Wilt, a lot, if not most of, today's players are fully aware of their stats and it shows. Once LeBron needs a few rebounds to get a monstrous triple-double, he starts chasing every rebound like Rodman. Every time Kobe gets a few assists away, only then he remembers his boyhood idol, Magic. Remember Jordan's streak of 10 triple-doubles in 11 games? 2 of them were "10-10" games, and in both he played 43 minutes. 4 more were games when he reached exactly 10 in his least prolific category. Up to that point, he had only 4 triple doubles in 65 games, so it's a safe bet that these triple-doubles didn't happen randomly. Remember the 1991 season, when he was told that he'd be getting fewer minutes of play and he started having huge scoring 1st quarters, whereas it was known that, for his standards, he was a "slow starter"? Coincidence?
Hell, recently there was an topic and a posted article about 1990 Ewing, a guy who never seemed to care all that much about huge stats and even he claimed that he doesn't pretend that he doesn't know/care about his game stats. Or, moving back to Wilt's time, another article revealed how Jerry Lucas was telling Embry to play more peripheral defense, so that he could easier chase down rebounds.

I won't even overanalyze the shots distribution of modern star players, in an era that is supposedly the most competitive ever-you wouldn't expect a star player to get 28-30% of his team's shots in an ultra-competitive era, would you? We see this in so many games, and nobody seems to bother and say anything, because we have been used to it. Maybe only if the star player has got at 6-20 shooting and it starts seeming apparent even to the most blinded ones that maybe it shouldn't be good for this player to get the ball at all.
Face it, most NBA stars are/were/will be notorious stat-padders. A lot of teams try to be built around a player's statpadding tendencies, instead of inserting the player to the team's philosophy (yeah, again, some competitive era...). Wilt was among the first and worst of the kind, but I laugh at any of the fans of the modern NBA who imply that only he pulled out such crap. I only give a point to those who dislike the modern NBA and any team that gives its superstar more than 18-20 shots per game.

:applause:

[jlauber]

Psileas and jlauber - Great, great posts gents.

Thanks to the knowledge on this site (and Bill Simmons' book) I have learned SO much about the history of the game (I am only 25 years old and never really cared about much pre-Larry Bird until more recently.

You have both been repped.

I always appreciate the knid words. And there are many other fine posters here, as well. The bottom line, though, is that hopefully we ALL learn here. I still marvel at the google new articles that are being posted here almost daily. We are really beginning to get a much better grasp of basketball in the 60's (much of which I actually witnessed.)

Phila and other's have pointed out that more-and-more footage is being released from the 60's. And, has been pointed out, IF we ever have the opportunity to see just SOME of the MANY full games in Wilt's career, particularly the MANY in which he either scored 60+ points (32 times), or any of his 109 30-30 games; or any of his 55 40-30 games; or any of his FIVE 50-40 games; or any of his high FG% games (26-34, 29-35, 18-18 etc.); or any of his 15 40+ rebound games; or perhaps a game in which he recorded 25 or 23 blocks; ...then I think many of the "myths" of his career will forever be put to rest.

[Pointguard]

Wow, Russell pretty much saying he's taking the money and running. He wants to get away from basketball - as according to the links Phila posted. Its amazing that Wilt was so great/lucky with his investments? At that time it was rare to hear that. Red Auerabach gave Russell a dollar more than Wilt but did it matter in the end? Wilt looks happy, content and loves the world while Russell looks broke, lives off of his legacy, and working on some serious anti-depressants. Winning was a preoccupation but life wasn't. After basketball Wilt grew into himself and Russell couldn't find out who he was.

Magic is someone who won in a big way, seemingly lost it all and then flipped it one more time. He identifies with great causes and employs many, many people. Confronted with what many thought was a life sentence he matured into the next phase with confidence that he was going to live and that life was worth living.

[Bird]

I always appreciate the knid words. And there are many other fine posters here, as well. The bottom line, though, is that hopefully we ALL learn here. I still marvel at the google new articles that are being posted here almost daily. We are really beginning to get a much better grasp of basketball in the 60's (much of which I actually witnessed.)

Phila and other's have pointed out that more-and-more footage is being released from the 60's. And, has been pointed out, IF we ever have the opportunity to see just SOME of the MANY full games in Wilt's career, particularly the MANY in which he either scored 60+ points (32 times), or any of his 109 30-30 games; or any of his 55 40-30 games; or any of his FIVE 50-40 games; or any of his high FG% games (26-34, 29-35, 18-18 etc.); or any of his 15 40+ rebound games; or perhaps a game in which he recorded 25 or 23 blocks; ...then I think many of the "myths" of his career will forever be put to rest.

I just wish they really had kept track of defensive stats sooner.

I would love to know how many seasons that Wilt or Russell may have averaged 8-10 blocks a game. OR even which player would have led the league in steals each season (and over the entire time frame pre-1970's).

I also cannot wait until ENTIRE playoff series from the 60's become publicly available. I am really interested in seeing some of the older Wilt vs Russell battles and watching Cousy and West and Robertson and more of the early greats just play.

[MasterDurant24]

All in all...Wilt wouldn't get nearly those numbers playing in this era...With ACTUAL comp...But w/e...Im bias towards that era, so I disqualify myself from these threads.
Did you neg me? Why?

[jlauber]

Did you neg me? Why?

I'll say it again...I see absolutely no need for a NEG rep button.

[branslowski]

Did you neg me? Why?

No, why would I have too?:confusedshrug:

[MasterDurant24]

No, why would I have too?:confusedshrug:
It says somebody negged me on a post where I quoted you.

[branslowski]

It says somebody negged me on a post where I quoted you.

Well, I didn't neg you...No reason to...

[jlauber]

It says somebody negged me on a post where I quoted you.

LOL! I just "negged" on this as well.

[jlip]

I have always believed Russell to be 6-10, and not the oft-listed 6-9,

Russell actually claims himself to be 6'10" in his book, Red and Me.

[jlauber]

Russell actually claims himself to be 6'10" in his book, Red and Me.

Yeah, he was listed at 6-10 in college, too. Of course, back then they measured players bare-footed...so their height's were probably more accurate than today's ridiculous measurements.

[branslowski]

LOL! I just "negged" on this as well.

lol...So you would think it's me...I bet...And I just got negged aswell..Prob by Durant24, but could be a frame job...lol...Jeff needs to do away with this rep.:lol

[jlauber]

lol...So you would think it's me...I bet...And I just got negged aswell..Prob by Durant24, but could be a frame job...lol...Jeff needs to do away with this rep.:lol

No. I'm sorry if I made it seem like it was you. I simply made a comment that they do away with "neg" repping...and sure enough...within seconds, I got a neg rep.

To be honest, I really don't care. But if they are going to have a "rep" system, this one needs an overhaul.

[MasterDurant24]

lol...So you would think it's me...I bet...And I just got negged aswell..Prob by Durant24, but could be a frame job...lol...Jeff needs to do away with this rep.:lol
I don't neg.

[branslowski]

No. I'm sorry if I made it seem like it was you. I simply made a comment that they do away with "neg" repping...and sure enough...within seconds, I got a neg rep.

To be honest, I really don't care. But if they are going to have a "rep" system, this one needs an overhaul.

Oh I wasn't saying...So YOU would think it's me....I was saying you got negged by someone so it could seem like I did it...I've gotten negged because ppl said I negged them..Im like.."OK, lol, w/e.."

[jlauber]

Oh I wasn't saying...So YOU would think it's me....I was saying you got negged by someone so it could seem like I did it...I've gotten negged because ppl said I negged them..Im like.."OK, lol, w/e.."

Well, as I have said before, one of the real problems with this system, is that we can't see who does the "repping." Furthermore, anyone can sign anyone's name to a rep. I complained about this awhile back, and sure enough, I got a "neg" rep...from "myself."

Then, you are limited to how often you can rep, and how often you can rep posters.

As far as "neg" reps go, I have never done any. And I see no reason to do so. If you don't like a post, either comment on it, or ignore it. I suspect that neg reps are more often used as some attempt at "revenge."

[the_wise_one]

Stat padder = Kobe.

[jlauber]

Bump...for the benefit of oolalaa and La Frescobaldi...

[The Iron Fist]

Stat padder = Kobe.
Kobe stat pads by adding rings.

[LJJ]

Kobe stat pads by adding rings.

Exactly!

He has more rings than his impact warrants. Just like a stat padder has better stats than his impact warrants. Kobe is a ring padder, not a ring earner. Sharp observations dude! Repped.