Shaquille O`Neal vs Kareem Abdul Jabbar

[MagicalLA]

Probably the 2 most dominant centers ive seen playing the game. They both dominated the game in different ways, one with his strength and power, the other one was much more skilled and developed an impossible shot to defend, the sky hook.

Olajuwon and Wilt were great centers too, right after this 2 in my opinion. I dont know if im biased because of my colors, but when I watch old Kareem games and back in the days when I watched 99/00 Lakers games, I just see them different from everybody else.

If you want to learn some post moves and some nice hooks, the best way to learn is watching Kareem (of course not counting Olajuwon). Shaq aint that of a skilled C, but he can dominate the zone like nobody, the man was something from other planet in his prime.

I dont know what more to say, I want to read some opinions on this subject. I know this thread has probably been made before but I think its an interesting discussion we can continue here.

[NoLayupsRule2]

You're basically an idiot if you think Shaq is the better/greater player of the two, and this is coming from a Shaq fan.

[Andrei89]

You're basically an idiot if you think Shaq is the better/greater player of the two, and this is coming from a Shaq fan.

No this not coming from a shaq fan. Why do people use that as excuse to fool people into believing their statements.

Prime Shaq vs prime Kareem 1 vs 1. Shaq would have killed him!

Shaq was more dominant. Kareem was in a weak era and especially Wilt Chamberlain in the 70's. My god the guy scored 100 points as a center. Can you imagine the soft player the league had by then?

Shaq is one of the most dominant centers of all time if not THY most dominant.

Put your hatred towards him away and think of having prime shaq on your team.

I bet if u got to choose to have any center in his prime on your team right now it would be shaq.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Peak is debatable, but Kareem definitely had the better career. They're the 2 best centers to play the game, IMO, but Kareem is clearly ahead.

[biasedfan]

Kareem, definitely. To be that good for so damn long... wow.

[LAClipsFan33]

Shaq was more dominant. Kareem was in a weak era and especially Wilt Chamberlain in the 70's. My god the guy scored 100 points as a center. Can you imagine the soft player the league had by then?


You just destroy your credibility by saying Wilt scored 100 in the 70's. Wilt played in the 60's for 80% of his career. If you can't even figure that out you probably shouldn't be speaking on him

[magnax1]

Peak is pretty easily Kareem. Kareem wasn't just a skilled player, I watched one of the 77 conference finals games the other day, and at one point kareem went from basket to basket with the ball and outran all the guards. Kareem seemed easily as quick as Hakeem back in the 70's.

[vert48]

Kareem was better, and it is not close. Kareem has an argument for GOAT, Shaq does not even have an argument for GOAT center.

[Jacks3]

Kareem had the greater peak(His peak was as a 33/15/5 player playing All-Defensive First Team defense and dominating the MVP vote) and career...

[elementally morale]

I think Hakeem was better than Shaq but it's debatable. Kareem vs. Shaq is not really debatable, as Jabbar was hands down better. For crying out loud, Kareem has a good case for GOAT. Shaq has no case for that.

[elementally morale]

Kareem was better, and it is not close. Kareem has an argument for GOAT, Shaq does not even have an argument for GOAT center.

You beat me to it by 2 mins. :applause:

[Andrei89]

You just destroy your credibility by saying Wilt scored 100 in the 70's. Wilt played in the 60's for 80% of his career. If you can't even figure that out you probably shouldn't be speaking on him

I didn't watch Wilt. I saw his stats and i have done my research on how dominant the centers were back then.

Stop overhyping wilt for crying out loud. 100 points as a center? How long were the quarters? 36 minutes each period?

You see you are losing you credibility when you are overhyping a guy you didn't even watch play except for youtube. You go on google , you search for the most points ever scored in the NBA. And you see Wilt up there with 100 and u are like ""wow that guy was the bomb". YEar fking right

believe what u want. Skinny ass Center making uncontested skyhooks because the defenders sucked so much ass by then you wouldn't distinguish them from Adam Morisson. Most of the centers were so weak Wilt would back them down to the post with a broken left foot.

And sure you had some legends back then but those are the only ones remembered. Ever find it weird few guys from that time are actually rememberd for how they played? Few of them remained remembered so that ESPN could make their money.

""Oh hay dawg let us ask mister Bill Russel what he thinks on Garnetts performance form last night". --- Cha ching

[MagicalLA]

Peak is debatable, but Kareem definitely had the better career. They're the 2 best centers to play the game, IMO, but Kareem is clearly ahead.

I think there hasnt been anything like prime Shaq. The guy was dominating the NBA in a very (perhaps the most) physical era ever existed. He just was impossible to defend, I dont know, prime Kareem was incredible too but I just dont see him dominating games like Shaq did.

Of course I agree with you that Kareem`s career was better. Lets forget the "MVP awards" and concentrate on how they played. Shaq`s game was very physical and we all know physical players tend to get decline faster than any other player. On the other hand, the sky hook can be executed at 35, 36 and 37 easily and it doesnt f*ck your body that much.

But a 37 year old Shaq can`t dunk on guys like Mutombo like he did back when he was 27.

[MagicalLA]

Kareem was better, and it is not close. Kareem has an argument for GOAT, Shaq does not even have an argument for GOAT center.

And exactly why...?

I think many of you people are forgetting what Shaq was in his prime...

[ShaqAttack3234]

But a 37 year old Shaq can`t dunk on guys like Mutombo like he did back when he was 27.

Well I did see Shaq last season in Phoenix dunking on a lot of guys, including Greg Oden, he had a 45/11 game on a ridiculous shooting %, a 29/13/6 game and a 33 point game vs the Lakers.

[elementally morale]

And exactly why...?

I think many of you people are forgetting what Shaq was in his prime...

Because we are old enough to have been able to see Kareem play.

[magnax1]

I think Hakeem was better than Shaq but it's debatable. Kareem vs. Shaq is not really debatable, as Jabbar was hands down better. For crying out loud, Kareem has a good case for GOAT. Shaq has no case for that.
Really I still haven't seen a logical case for Hakeem over Shaq still. Even back when Shaq was younger Shaq usually played very well against hakeem, and was playing as well as Hakeem was in his prime.

[MagicalLA]

I didn't watch Wilt. I saw his stats and i have done my research on how dominant the centers were back then.

Stop overhyping wilt for crying out loud. 100 points as a center? How long were the quarters? 36 minutes each period?

You see you are losing you credibility when you are overhyping a guy you didn't even watch play except for youtube. You go on google , you search for the most points ever scored in the NBA. And you see Wilt up there with 100 and u are like ""wow that guy was the bomb". YEar fking right

believe what u want. Skinny ass Center making uncontested skyhooks because the defenders sucked so much ass by then you wouldn't distinguish them from Adam Morisson. Most of the centers were so weak Wilt would back them down to the post with a broken left foot.

And sure you had some legends back then but those are the only ones remembered. Ever find it weird few guys from that time are actually rememberd for how they played? Few of them remained remembered so that ESPN could make their money.

""Oh hay dawg let us ask mister Bill Russel what he thinks on Garnetts performance form last night". --- Cha ching


I agree on most of what you said.

People around ISH tend to call you "ignorant" when you say Wilt`s competition (saving Russell) was a joke, and f*ck man, it was a joke.

I mean you download some old games, sit on your couch and start playing, and all you see is a bunch of white skinny guys trying to defend him. Damn, I dont know about you guys but when I see Wilt bounce the ball I just dont see him at the level of real great centers like Kareem, Shaq or Olajuwon.

But most Wilt fans, specially from Philadelphia will call you everything for saying this.

[MagicalLA]

Because we are old enough to have been able to see Kareem play.

I havent watched as many games of Kareem as ive watched from Shaq (obviously), but I have watched Kareem played and on their primes, I got more impressed by Shaq.

[elementally morale]

Really I still haven't seen a logical case for Hakeem over Shaq still. Even back when Shaq was younger Shaq usually played very well against hakeem, and was playing as well as Hakeem was in his prime.

I think it comes down to personal preference. Basically, in their primes you couldn't have chosen wrong among Karee, Hakeem, Wilt or Shaq. Usually people like the player most whom they saw play as 10 to 20 year olds (or the hometown hero).

So guys over 40 would definitely pick Kareem. Guys over 30 have a good chance of respecting Hakeem more than Shaq. Guys below or very close to 30 tend to choose Shaq.

It is personal preference and I just loved Hakeem's game.

[Batz]

And exactly why...?

I think many of you people are forgetting what Shaq was in his prime...
Kareem was Prime shaq throughout his young career. His consistency alone shits on Prime Shaq.

[magnax1]

I think it comes down to personal preference. Basically, in their primes you couldn't have chosen wrong among Karee, Hakeem, Wilt or Shaq. Usually people like the player most whom they saw play as 10 to 20 year olds (or the hometown hero).

So guys over 40 would definitely pick Kareem. Guys over 30 have a good chance of respecting Hakeem more than Shaq. Guys below or very close to 30 tend to choose Shaq.

It is personal preference and I just loved Hakeem's game.
Prime vs. Prime Hakeem is obviously the last of those four to me. He was a good player, but the amount hes been over rated on here is insane to me. Hes just not on the level of those other three.

[vert48]

And exactly why...?

I think many of you people are forgetting what Shaq was in his prime...Long time Laker season ticket holder here. I watched both Shaq and Kareem play live, and no, I am not forgetting how dominant Shaq was. Kareem was better at EVERYTHING than Shaq - offense, defense, rebounding, shooting, freethrows, conditioning, basketball IQ, longevity, etc. Kareem is even a better actor (Airplane vs Kazaam).

[elementally morale]

Prime vs. Prime Hakeem is obviously the last of those four to me. He was a good player, but the amount hes been over rated on here is insane to me. Hes just not on the level of those other three.

We disagree then. :cheers:

[NoLayupsRule2]

I hope people realize that Kareem had a rule created for him in College Basketball because he was that ****ing dominant....And when they made that rule to prevent him from shitting on players when he was with UCLA, he devloped his sky-hook and became even more unstoppable.

[vert48]

IMO, the top 6 centers, in order:
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan

I have seen all play live except for Russell. Wilt was not in his prime, but I did get to see him play. The rest, I got to see in college on up. One guy not on the list, Walton, would certainly be there had it not been for injuries. He just saw the game differently than everyone else. Basically a Point Center.

[elementally morale]

IMO, the top 6 centers, in order:
Kareem
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan

Interesting. I have the same order.

[Yung D-Will]

1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

I consider Duncan the best Power Forward to ever play the game so he doesn't make it on to my center list

[zizozain]

this is an insult to the "Cap"
"The Big Fella" = GOAT

[ShaqAttack3234]

My top 3 centers of all time are

1.Kareem
2.Shaq
3.Wilt

[knickscity]

Kareem was better, and it is not close. Kareem has an argument for GOAT, Shaq does not even have an argument for GOAT center.
I know this is a total different argument, but Kareem has a legit argument for not just being GOAT center, but GOAT all-time player.

I'm not trying to say that Jordan isn't, because I still believe Jordan has that effect on the NBA more than anyone has, but their careers are very similar for what they accomplished.

For the stat whores, Kareem actually has him beat.

But Kareem smashes Shaq on every level of basketball. Period.

[knickscity]

I hope people realize that Kareem had a rule created for him in College Basketball because he was that ****ing dominant....And when they made that rule to prevent him from shitting on players when he was with UCLA, he devloped his sky-hook and became even more unstoppable.
^^This^^

[vert48]

1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

I consider Duncan the best Power Forward to ever play the game so he doesn't make it on to my center listYou can call him a Power Forward, but he plays Center :D


I know this is a total different argument, but Kareem has a legit argument for not just being GOAT center, but GOAT all-time player.

I'm not trying to say that Jordan isn't, because I still believe Jordan has that effect on the NBA more than anyone has, but their careers are very similar for what they accomplished.

For the stat whores, Kareem actually has him beat.

But Kareem smashes Shaq on every level of basketball. Period.That is exactly what I said :)

Kareem was better, and it is not close. Kareem has an argument for GOAT, Shaq does not even have an argument for GOAT center.

[Yung D-Will]

You can call him a Power Forward, but he plays Center :D

Yawn, no point in arguing his position if he wants to be remembered as the Power Forward he was for most of his prime then I say let him. Doesn't make a difference to me

[Bigsmoke]

Jabbar was soo boring to watch though.

[vert48]

Yawn, no point in arguing his position if he wants to be remembered as the Power Forward he was for most of his prime then I say let him. Doesn't make a difference to meHe is what he is, but if it quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. I see him as playing the same position as Hakeem, and the only reason he was called a Power Forward is because as a Center, he would have been competing against Shaq for the All Star and All NBA teams throughout his prime.

[knickscity]

He is what he is, but if it quacks like a duck, it is probably a duck. I see him as playing the same position as Hakeem, and the only reason he was called a Power Forward is because as a Center, he would have been competing against Shaq for the All Star and All NBA teams throughout his prime.
This argument has been done already. You are right Duncan did play the same position as Hakeem, if you are comparing when Ralph Sampson played with Hakeem?

I guess Sampson was the 7'2 pf?

[vert48]

This argument has been done already. You are right Duncan did play the same position as Hakeem, if you are comparing when Ralph Sampson played with Hakeem?

I guess Sampson was the 7'2 pf? You obviously never saw Hakeem and Sampson play together. Sampson played power forward, Hakeem played center.

[knickscity]

It was actually a humor move. This is where the true twin tower came from.

The more mobile player played foward. In this case it was Sampson.

Surprised you didn't get it.

[Yung D-Will]

I don't get why people argue over weather people played the 5 or 4. Either way it doesn't change their ranking all time.

[vert48]

I don't get why people argue over weather people played the 5 or 4. Either way it doesn't change their ranking all time. He is a top 10 all time, but he is not the GOAT at his position. If you were putting together an all time starting 5, Duncan would not be on the court. Russell and Hakeem would both play PF in front of Duncan.

[LAClipsFan33]

I didn't watch Wilt. I saw his stats and i have done my research on how dominant the centers were back then.

Stop overhyping wilt for crying out loud. 100 points as a center? How long were the quarters? 36 minutes each period?

You see you are losing you credibility when you are overhyping a guy you didn't even watch play except for youtube. You go on google , you search for the most points ever scored in the NBA. And you see Wilt up there with 100 and u are like ""wow that guy was the bomb". YEar fking right

believe what u want. Skinny ass Center making uncontested skyhooks because the defenders sucked so much ass by then you wouldn't distinguish them from Adam Morisson. Most of the centers were so weak Wilt would back them down to the post with a broken left foot.

And sure you had some legends back then but those are the only ones remembered. Ever find it weird few guys from that time are actually rememberd for how they played? Few of them remained remembered so that ESPN could make their money.

""Oh hay dawg let us ask mister Bill Russel what he thinks on Garnetts performance form last night". --- Cha ching

And you continue to bury yourself with your blatant ignorance and disrespect for the history of the game.

[Yung D-Will]

He is a top 10 all time, but he is not the GOAT at his position. If you were putting together an all time starting 5, Duncan would not be on the court. Russell and Hakeem would both play PF in front of Duncan.

I disagree about that one but It's a valid opinion. More than half the people I've encountered claim he's the Goat Power Forward whiles the others claim he's a top 6 center all time. I guess if you have him as a Pf you'd put him in your all time starting 5 but if you have him as a center you won't. I still don't see the big difference

[snipes12]

fck shaq will destroy that skinny ass frame of alcindor

[vert48]

I disagree about that one but It's a valid opinion. More than half the people I've encountered claim he's the Goat Power Forward whiles the others claim he's a top 6 center all time. I guess if you have him as a Pf you'd put him in your all time starting 5 but if you have him as a center you won't. I still don't see the big differenceWe disagree then. If you list him as a PF, he still sits the bench, because Russell and Hakeem are both better at either position people say Duncan plays.

[Yung D-Will]

We disagree then. If you list him as a PF, he still sits the bench, because Russell and Hakeem are both better at either position people say Duncan plays.
Well I wouldn't even consider Hakeem for an all time starting lineup when Kareem, Wilt and Russel are on the Board

[vert48]

Well I wouldn't even consider Hakeem for an all time starting lineup when Kareem, Wilt and Russel are on the BoardYep

[PHILA]

I saw his stats and i have done my research on how dominant the centers were back then.
If you did then you'd know that the center position today is easily the worst it has ever been since the shot clock was introduced in 1955.


You see you are losing you credibility when you are overhyping a guy you didn't even watch play except for youtube. You go on google , you search for the most points ever scored in the NBA. And you see Wilt up there with 100 and u are like ""wow that guy was the bomb". YEar fking right
How many players at any position have complete control of the basketball in one hand literally like a tennis ball as Chamberlain could?


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48...ick-kaml_sport (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48zv5_nba-vault-the-1967-sixers-rick-kaml_sport) (Two fake passes at 4:30 mark)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycO_MYuF89k#t=7m08s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTRjFYwF_RQ#t=2m55s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kocq3D4zd-U#t=4m44s






These are not 'tall tales' or myths that have grown over the years.

Toldeo Blade - Nov 28, 1956 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=340UAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wAAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7302,4611332&dq)

'It seems Wilt has an unorthodox method of shooting free throws. The big guy takes aim at the basket from several feet behind the line. Then he takes about three giant steps, leaves his feet before reaching the line, and stuffs the ball through the hoop.

Under the old rule, it was perfectly legal as Wilt never touched the floor before letting go of the ball. In addition his percentage was fantastic.

"Why, he would have had a free throw percentage of 100," said [Tex] Winter. "He never missed."

Incidentally the rules committee did not mention Chamberlain by name as a reason for the change. The rule change was made, according to the committee, "to prevent freak activity."'



Mar 24, 1956 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=mjQaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ByYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7154,1845932&dq)

'The proposed new rule hits at such towering performers as San Francisco's Bill Russell and Wilt (The Stilt) Chamberlain of Kansas.'




For much of his career Chamberlain did not have the luxury of completing a lob pass in one mid-air motion as Auerbach would call it 'offensive goal tending.'

Today they'd call it an alley-oop as noted by Sonny Hill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESDFppbQ2zM).






Sports Illustrated - March 2, 1964 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075691/2/index.htm)

'The St. Louis Hawks' 6-foot-9, 240-pound Zelmo Beaty, for example, found out recently that he can no longer take Chamberlain's great strength for granted. Unable to slow Wilt down with conventional maltreatment, Beaty tried to yank his shorts off. Chamberlain, who can press 400 pounds without breathing hard, makes it a point to control his temper, primarily because he is genuinely afraid he might kill somebody. Beaty's unethical yank, however, was too much. Wilt flicked an arm, and Beaty flew across the floor like a man shot out of a cannon. Referee Mendy Rudolph rushed over to him and said: "For God's sake, stay down, man. Don't even twitch a muscle." Beaty didn't twitch, and he is still active in the NBA.'




The Evening Independent - Sep 15, 1966 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_dkLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QlcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7163,2399606&dq)

'Chamberlain, like Brown, is a great athlete and seriously considered becoming a fighter a year and a half ago. Wilt and Jimmy have competed againsy each other in foot races and tests of strength.

"I'd rather fight Clay than Wilt," Brown said. "Chamberlain's too big and he's too strong, but I'm no fighter. I'm saving whatever fighting I've got to do for the Dirty Dozen."'



St. Petersburg Times - Feb 25, 1969 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=gPoNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w3sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7049,3815406&dq)

'Wilt Chamberlain is probably the first giant in history to be able to break 50 seconds in the 440, win a Big Eight high-jump title and be able to set a pick. In fact, he may not be a true giant. Medicine has taken the mystery out of gigantism. Most giants of the past were physical weaklings. Some were 90 percent legs. Wilt Chamberlain, by common consent, is the world's strongest man.'



He was even stronger during his later years in life.

http://i43.tinypic.com/11icsox.gif

http://i48.tinypic.com/mk9pts.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2dqttet.jpg




The Miami News - Nov 7, 1962 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1XYyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2OkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2229,2425147&dq)

'He can clean and jerk a 375 lb weight.'

Clean and Jerk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sA-lEbrgak)

(Note this was skinny Wilt Chamberlain circa '62.)




believe what u want. Skinny ass Center making uncontested skyhooks because the defenders sucked so much ass by then you wouldn't distinguish them from Adam Morisson.

The "skinny ass center" and his skyhooks would remain uncontested by today's so called big men. He would be the best athlete as well as the best player of any active player at any position today at peak form. One can only imagine the extent to which he would destroy his unworthy pupil in a matchup of his Lakers or Bucks against the team featuring the top frontcourt of the 2009-10 NBA season.


Most of the centers were so weak Wilt would back them down to the post with a broken left foot.
Embry, Chamberlain, Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Unseld, Jackson, Kerr, Reed, & Lanier to name a few were far from 'weak.' He would have his way with any active big man.

[PHILA]

People around ISH tend to call you "ignorant" when you say Wilt`s competition (saving Russell) was a joke, and f*ck man, it was a joke.
His competetion then was infinitley better than anything he'd face today.



Damn, I dont know about you guys but when I see Wilt bounce the ball I just dont see him at the level of real great centers like Kareem, Shaq or Olajuwon.
Just as I don't see how any of them were ever as good as Chamberlain was with the Sixers.



But most Wilt fans, specially from Philadelphia will call you everything for saying this.
No kidding, as most NBA fans (even Laker fans) on various boards including this one hate Chamberlain. We even have an O'Neal & Carter fan who happens to be fond of historically great centers as well as active centers; this while so vehemently despising the top two centers the NBA has ever seen. We have seen numerous posters here declare the best offensive guard in NBA history a mere "choker" as well as labeling the top defensive player in the sport's history as a poor mans Deke.

[ShaqAttack3234]

We even have an O'Neal & Carter fan who happens to be fond of historically great centers as well as active centers; this while so vehemently despising the top two centers the NBA has ever seen.

Even though it's obvious you're referring to me hating Russell and Wilt(which is untrue), can you explain how I hate Russell or Chamberlain?

Because I don't buy into silly myths like Wilt's supposed 48 inch vertical(which would put his shoulders at or above rim level), benching 550 at Kansas when he was 240-250 pounds ect. Or because I gave my honest thoughts on the limited footage available? Yet, nobody could point out that what I said was false.

[PHILA]

I hope I am wrong, or perhaps skeptical might have been more appropriate. I did not mean to paint you like the old poster BULLS, however it did appear you were not too fond of Russell or Chamberlain. Or nearly any 60's legends. Not that I can fairly blame you or anyone else, as the NBA has done a fine job in effectively keeping the vintage games locked away.

[CLTHornets4eva]

Well Kareem played soft, but his baby hook would still be effective today. Think a much better Gasol, who is effective in the league as a player with superior touch even if he isn't the strongest big on the court. You just can't discount him because of his body type.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I actually like Wilt, I just got done reading a biography about him a few months ago and I've defended him when trolls say he couldn't play today, but I also think there are a lot of exaggerations about him. I like Robertson and West as well(though I don't think people put Robertson's stats into perspective) and I'm actually a distant relative of a 60's Celtics legend. I respect that era and I'm always interested in seeing any footage available.

[PHILA]

Well Kareem played soft, but his baby hook would still be effective today. Think a much better Gasol, who is effective in the league as a player with superior touch even if he isn't the strongest big on the court. You just can't discount him because of his body type. Big insult as a finesse player doesn't necessarily equal a soft one. There is no question O'Neal could muscle him at times down low for a dunk, however KAJ developed his hook with the off hand as well and became deadly with that playing against the enforcers in a more violent and physical era of basketball in the 70's down low. By the mid-70's he was a physical beast as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHmrCGzAinU#t=3m20s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mloG22I2YtU

[alexandreben]

The Miami News - Nov 7, 1962 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1XYyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2OkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2229,2425147&dq)

'He can clean and jerk a 375 lb weight.'

Clean and Jerk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sA-lEbrgak)

(Note this was skinny Wilt Chamberlain circa '62.)





Thanks for elliminating illiteracy, PHILA, I need to ask a question regarding to Wilt's wing-spread, in the news paper "The Miami News 7 nov. 1962", it claimed Wilt had 101 inches from fingertip to fingertip. In another interview we saw Wilt with Ali, it measured as 92 inches, so, how could it be so big difference? I'm guessing that the latter one measured without fignertip it was 92 inches, and the first count from fingertip to fingertip which's 101 inches, am I right?

[alexandreben]

The Miami News - Nov 7, 1962 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1XYyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2OkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2229,2425147&dq)

"He can clean and jerk a 375-lb. weight, run the quarter mile in 47s, and high-jump over 6-11."

So, this is from the news paper in 1962, Wilt's high jump was 6-6 when he won the high jump champion in college, is that mean he can jump 5" higher than his college age?

[jlauber]

If you did then you'd know that the center position today is easily the worst it has ever been since the shot clock was introduced in 1955.


How many players at any position have complete control of the basketball in one hand literally like a tennis ball as Chamberlain could?


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48...ick-kaml_sport (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48zv5_nba-vault-the-1967-sixers-rick-kaml_sport) (Two fake passes at 4:30 mark)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycO_MYuF89k#t=7m08s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTRjFYwF_RQ#t=2m55s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kocq3D4zd-U#t=4m44s






These are not 'tall tales' or myths that have grown over the years.

Toldeo Blade - Nov 28, 1956 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=340UAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wAAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7302,4611332&dq)

'It seems Wilt has an unorthodox method of shooting free throws. The big guy takes aim at the basket from several feet behind the line. Then he takes about three giant steps, leaves his feet before reaching the line, and stuffs the ball through the hoop.

Under the old rule, it was perfectly legal as Wilt never touched the floor before letting go of the ball. In addition his percentage was fantastic.

"Why, he would have had a free throw percentage of 100," said [Tex] Winter. "He never missed."

Incidentally the rules committee did not mention Chamberlain by name as a reason for the change. The rule change was made, according to the committee, "to prevent freak activity."'



Mar 24, 1956 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=mjQaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ByYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7154,1845932&dq)

'The proposed new rule hits at such towering performers as San Francisco's Bill Russell and Wilt (The Stilt) Chamberlain of Kansas.'




For much of his career Chamberlain did not have the luxury of completing a lob pass in one mid-air motion as Auerbach would call it 'offensive goal tending.'

Today they'd call it an alley-oop as noted by Sonny Hill (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESDFppbQ2zM).






Sports Illustrated - March 2, 1964 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1075691/2/index.htm)

'The St. Louis Hawks' 6-foot-9, 240-pound Zelmo Beaty, for example, found out recently that he can no longer take Chamberlain's great strength for granted. Unable to slow Wilt down with conventional maltreatment, Beaty tried to yank his shorts off. Chamberlain, who can press 400 pounds without breathing hard, makes it a point to control his temper, primarily because he is genuinely afraid he might kill somebody. Beaty's unethical yank, however, was too much. Wilt flicked an arm, and Beaty flew across the floor like a man shot out of a cannon. Referee Mendy Rudolph rushed over to him and said: "For God's sake, stay down, man. Don't even twitch a muscle." Beaty didn't twitch, and he is still active in the NBA.'




The Evening Independent - Sep 15, 1966 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_dkLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QlcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7163,2399606&dq)

'Chamberlain, like Brown, is a great athlete and seriously considered becoming a fighter a year and a half ago. Wilt and Jimmy have competed againsy each other in foot races and tests of strength.

"I'd rather fight Clay than Wilt," Brown said. "Chamberlain's too big and he's too strong, but I'm no fighter. I'm saving whatever fighting I've got to do for the Dirty Dozen."'



St. Petersburg Times - Feb 25, 1969 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=gPoNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w3sDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7049,3815406&dq)

'Wilt Chamberlain is probably the first giant in history to be able to break 50 seconds in the 440, win a Big Eight high-jump title and be able to set a pick. In fact, he may not be a true giant. Medicine has taken the mystery out of gigantism. Most giants of the past were physical weaklings. Some were 90 percent legs. Wilt Chamberlain, by common consent, is the world's strongest man.'



He was even stronger during his later years in life.

http://i43.tinypic.com/11icsox.gif

http://i48.tinypic.com/mk9pts.jpg

http://i45.tinypic.com/2dqttet.jpg




The Miami News - Nov 7, 1962 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1XYyAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2OkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=2229,2425147&dq)

'He can clean and jerk a 375 lb weight.'

Clean and Jerk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sA-lEbrgak)

(Note this was skinny Wilt Chamberlain circa '62.)




The "skinny ass center" and his skyhooks would remain uncontested by today's so called big men. He would be the best athlete as well as the best player of any active player at any position today at peak form. One can only imagine the extent to which he would destroy his unworthy pupil in a matchup of his Lakers or Bucks against the team featuring the top frontcourt of the 2009-10 NBA season.


Embry, Chamberlain, Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, Unseld, Jackson, Kerr, Reed, & Lanier to name a few were far from 'weak.' He would have his way with any active big man.

:applause:

I don't want to start ranting on this topic, since it is supposed to only involve Kareem and Shaq...but if anyone seriously believes that today's athletes are MUCH greater than those of the 60's, 70's, and 80's...they are complete idiots. I have posted on that otopic before, and I am short on time now...but quickly, even the fastest players in TODAY's NFL are not as fast as Bob Hayes, who was a HOF wide-receiver in the 60's. OJ, Hershel Walker, Willie Gault, Deion, Darrell Green, and Bo Jackson, among others were all faster than just about anyone playing today. Mickey Mantle hit a TON of TAPE-MEASURE HRs that far exceeded Barry Bonds' best shot. Nolan Ryan was clocked, with a SLOW gun, at 101 MPH in the 8th inning of a game in which he had already thrown 162 pitches. Bob Beamon long-jumped 29' 2" in 1968...the world record is 29' 4". Kareem, as the oldest player in the league, lit up Hakeem in three straight games in 85-86, averaging 42 ppg over that span. I could, and have, gone on for hours on this subject, but once again, the "ESPN Generation" is deluding themselves if they believe that today's greats are significantly better than those of even 50 years ago.

[ginobli2311]

:applause:

I don't want to start ranting on this topic, since it is supposed to only involve Kareem and Shaq...but if anyone seriously believes that today's athletes are MUCH greater than those of the 60's, 70's, and 80's...they are complete idiots. I have posted on that otopic before, and I am short on time now...but quickly, even the fastest players in TODAY's NFL are not as fast as Bob Hayes, who was a HOF wide-receiver in the 60's. OJ, Hershel Walker, Willie Gault, Deion, Darrell Green, and Bo Jackson, among others were all faster than just about anyone playing today. Mickey Mantle hit a TON of TAPE-MEASURE HRs that far exceeded Barry Bonds' best shot. Nolan Ryan was clocked, with a SLOW gun, at 101 MPH in the 8th inning of a game in which he had already thrown 162 pitches. Bob Beamon long-jumped 29' 2" in 1968...the world record is 29' 4". Kareem, as the oldest player in the league, lit up Hakeem in three straight games in 85-86, averaging 42 ppg over that span. I could, and have, gone on for hours on this subject, but once again, the "ESPN Generation" is deluding themselves if they believe that today's greats are significantly better than those of even 50 years ago.

Great post.

[Psileas]

No this not coming from a shaq fan. Why do people use that as excuse to fool people into believing their statements.

Prime Shaq vs prime Kareem 1 vs 1. Shaq would have killed him!

Shaq was more dominant. Kareem was in a weak era and especially Wilt Chamberlain in the 70's. My god the guy scored 100 points as a center. Can you imagine the soft player the league had by then?

Shaq is one of the most dominant centers of all time if not THY most dominant.

Uh, talk about BIG TIME contradiction, claiming "OMG, Wilt scored 100 points in a game, imagine what a weak era it was", then claiming that "Shaq may be THE most dominant center ever".

That said, career-wise is easily Kareem over Shaq. Prime/peak Shaq can go against anyone, but if that was the case, then both him and Hakeem should be considered valid GOAT candidates, whereas they aren't (even though a few people make cases for them being the GOAT centers, and even they, for some reason, shy away from calling them, say, top-3 GOAT candidates).

[PHILA]

Thanks for elliminating illiteracy, PHILA, I need to ask a question regarding to Wilt's wing-spread, in the news paper "The Miami News 7 nov. 1962", it claimed Wilt had 101 inches from fingertip to fingertip. In another interview we saw Wilt with Ali, it measured as 92 inches, so, how could it be so big difference? I'm guessing that the latter one measured without fignertip it was 92 inches, and the first count from fingertip to fingertip which's 101 inches, am I right? I left it out as there have been multiple sources giving different measurements. No way of knowing how it was measured.

To add to the previous post:

The Evening Independent - Jan 6, 1967 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=TSMoAAAAIBAJ&sjid=S1cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2229,911381&dq)

"I'd bet you $1,000 I could lift 1,000 pounds," the 76ers singular 7-1 center said, "I have. I've also hand-wrestled two men at the same time and beat them. And there's nothing I'd like to do better than play pro football."



Ocala Star-Banner - Sep 17, 1975 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_R8TAAAAIBAJ&sjid=lAUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6593,3084647&dq)

'As inconspicuously as possible for a 7-foot 1-inch impresario, Wilt Chamberlain stopped by the New York Knicks' office for a quick social hello and now he was waiting for an elevator that would take him upstairs to the Madison Square Garden arena floor. When the elevator doors opened, Wilt stepped back as two husky workmen struggled to wheel a heavily loaded dolly into the corridor. On the dolly there were 10 big cartons of envelopes. For perhaps a minute the workmen pushed and pulled, trying to get the wheels of the dolly across the uneven gap between the elevator and the floor, huffing and puffing, they finally dropped their hands in frustration. "You look," Wilt said, "like you need a little help," His massive arms unencumbered by a chocolate sleeveless shirt, he reached down, grabbed the rope attached to the dolly and lifted the load into the corridor as if it had been a baby in a stroller. The workmen stared and thanked him. Wilt smiled, entered the elevator and the doors closed.

"I never saw anything like that," one of the workmen said. "These carton each weight about 80 pounds. This is an 800 pound load."

That's the approximate weight of four Knick teammates. And if Wilt were to join the Knicks for the approaching National Basketball Association season, he believes he could lift the team into contention with the Boston Celtics for the Atlantic Division title.'




I believe jlauber recently posted a John Havlicek quote on a confrontation Chamberlain had with NFL player and part time professional wrestler Big Daddy Lipscomb in the early 60's.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/09/01/lipscomb.jpg

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Wrestling/2005/09/01/lipscomb365x445.jpg



So, this is from the news paper in 1962, Wilt's high jump was 6-6 when he won the high jump champion in college, is that mean he can jump 5" higher than his college age?
Gettysburg Times - Dec 14, 1957 (http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=G98yAAAAIBAJ&sjid=av8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=6243,1120564&dq)

"I also figure I can make the Olympic team in track. If I set my mind to it, I think I can high jump seven feet and I'm also toying with the idea of trying out for the decathlon."

[alexandreben]

I left it out as there have been multiple sources giving different measurements. No way of knowing how it was measured.
I'd assume that the measurements of 92 inches in the interview with Ali was "fist to fist", because it's for boxing...

and the measurement of 101 inches was also true as it was "fingertip to fingertip".

[jn2rons]

I didn't watch Wilt. I saw his stats and i have done my research on how dominant the centers were back then.

Stop overhyping wilt for crying out loud. 100 points as a center? How long were the quarters? 36 minutes each period?

You see you are losing you credibility when you are overhyping a guy you didn't even watch play except for youtube. You go on google , you search for the most points ever scored in the NBA. And you see Wilt up there with 100 and u are like ""wow that guy was the bomb". YEar fking right

believe what u want. Skinny ass Center making uncontested skyhooks because the defenders sucked so much ass by then you wouldn't distinguish them from Adam Morisson. Most of the centers were so weak Wilt would back them down to the post with a broken left foot.

And sure you had some legends back then but those are the only ones remembered. Ever find it weird few guys from that time are actually rememberd for how they played? Few of them remained remembered so that ESPN could make their money.

""Oh hay dawg let us ask mister Bill Russel what he thinks on Garnetts performance form last night". --- Cha ching

You're a joke!! :roll:
The league had a TOTAL of 8 teams, when Wilt was a rook in '59. Played Russell 19x that yr including the playoffs.
Don't care who else he played against, but dude avg'd 33 & 28 against Bill Russell, Dolph Schayes, and Red Kerr in the playoffs.

TOTAL of 17 teams, by the time he retired in '73.
Avg'd 10, 23, & 4 as a 4th option on his way out in the playoffs.
Played against >> KAJ, Dave Cowens, Willis Reed, Elvin Hayes, Walt Bellamy, Nate Thurmond, Bob Lanier. (All are HOF, right?)

[MagicalLA]

I hate when every single thread about Centers turn into a "look how great Chamberlain was".

I dont give a f*ck, honestly.

[jlauber]

I marvel at the games of Gasol and Nowitzki...two of the most skilled big men in the game today. Having said that, I have seen those two before...Bill Walton (Gasol), and Bob McAdoo (Nowitzki.) In fact, while Walton and McAdoo were 6-11, and about an inch or two shorter than those two guys, I think they were even better all-around players.

Kareem was probably the most skilled big man of all-time. He was such a skilled player, that even after his physical ability diminished quite a bit, and he could no longer rebound effectively, he was still able to put up 25 ppg seasons, and 30+ point games in BIG games.

As far as Shaq goes...the only player close to him, in terms of physical dominance, was Chamberlain. And Wilt seldom used his massive strength or height to full advantage. In his prime, Shaq relished physical play, and he just crushed his peers.

IMHO, if you were to pit Shaq, Kareem, and yes Wilt (with apologies to the OP)...in their PRIMES, and against each other, they would not be able to stop each other. Wilt would best be equipped to guard those two, though. He was probably as strong as Shaq, and was more athletic than either. But Kareem would be able to get his shots against either. And I just can't see Kareem, or even Wilt, being able to keep a 350 lb. Shaq from getting near the rim. Of course, a prime Wilt, with his all-around offensive skills (a wide variety of shots from up to 15 ft), and overwhelming edge in leaping ability, would get his points against either, as well.

[PHILA]

I'd assume that the measurements of 92 inches in the interview with Ali was "fist to fist", because it's for boxing...

and the measurement of 101 inches was also true as it was "fingertip to fingertip".

It did appear to be a fingertip to fingertip measurement in the video below, however he is in a suit with no way to tell his proper posture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1Xjt-1Zvwo#t=6m0s

[Lebron Bryant]

Kareem any day over Shaq.

[Roundball_Rock]

Really I still haven't seen a logical case for Hakeem over Shaq still. Even back when Shaq was younger Shaq usually played very well against hakeem, and was playing as well as Hakeem was in his prime.

I agree. Shaq had a greater peak and greater longevity. Shaq also won twice as many rings and made the NBA finals twice as many times. So what does Hakeem have over Shaq? Skill, but if we go down that route Shaq falls way down the list...


I dont know about you guys but when I see Wilt bounce the ball I just dont see him at the level of real great centers like Kareem, Shaq or Olajuwon.

Old Wilt held his own with young Kareem
Old Kareem held his own with young Hakeem
Old Hakeem held his own with young Shaq
Old Shaq held his own with young Howard/Yao

The moral of the story? The era talk is overrated. Great players are great regardless of their era. The only area where eras are relevant is in terms of competition level of teams. It was easier to win in the 90's and 70's than it was to win in the 60's or 80's.

[alexandreben]

I agree. Shaq had a greater peak and greater longevity. Shaq also won twice as many rings and made the NBA finals twice as many times. So what does Hakeem have over Shaq? Skill, but if we go down that route Shaq falls way down the list...



Old Wilt held his own with young Kareem
Old Kareem held his own with young Hakeem
Old Hakeem held his own with young Shaq
Old Shaq held his own with young Howard/Yao

The moral of the story? The era talk is overrated. Great players are great regardless of their era. The only area where eras are relevant is in terms of competition level of teams. It was easier to win in the 90's and 70's than it was to win in the 60's or 80's.
totally agree;

and ranking CHI with 72 wins as the "NO.1 team" of all time was a joke..

in my opinion, 80's > 60's > 90's > 70's > 00's

btw, how come so many people consider the 60's was a weak era?? only because the lack of footage or the old school didn't play fansy basketball?? because the players can fly in the sky doesn't mean they play better than those old schools, basketball somehow was just basically all about IQ, shooting and passing, dribbling won't be an issue for a professional player, and the body contact is always there no matter what era, the only thing can be talked about is the skilled and footwork some players developped and passed on, that's it. The fansy flying in the sky and the massive dunkings nowadays doesn't mean the players now are better than those in the 60's..

[rfm767]

Kareem Abdul Jabbar. :bowdown:

[magnax1]

I agree. Shaq had a greater peak and greater longevity. Shaq also won twice as many rings and made the NBA finals twice as many times. So what does Hakeem have over Shaq? Skill, but if we go down that route Shaq falls way down the list...
I don't think you've ever agreed with me before, but its nice to have happen once in a while
:lol

[jlauber]

I agree. Shaq had a greater peak and greater longevity. Shaq also won twice as many rings and made the NBA finals twice as many times. So what does Hakeem have over Shaq? Skill, but if we go down that route Shaq falls way down the list...



Old Wilt held his own with young Kareem
Old Kareem held his own with young Hakeem
Old Hakeem held his own with young Shaq
Old Shaq held his own with young Howard/Yao

The moral of the story? The era talk is overrated. Great players are great regardless of their era. The only area where eras are relevant is in terms of competition level of teams. It was easier to win in the 90's and 70's than it was to win in the 60's or 80's.

:applause:

[jayfan]

Prime vs. Prime Hakeem is obviously the last of those four to me. He was a good player, but the amount hes been over rated on here is insane to me. Hes just not on the level of those other three.

Couldn't disagree more. In his prime, Hakeem's skill + dominance on both ends of the floor was as great as any center's I've ever seen. He did everything. Definitely on the level of Kareem and Wilt. Clearly above Shaq.

[moe94]

I'm sorry guys, you can debate careers all you want, but give me Shaq circa 99-2003 over any center ever. It's not even close.