Name a legit good player Dirk has ever played with in Dallas.

[D3vIrGiNiz3r]

I hear all this noise about how Dirks teams have been so deep over the years, but have they really?

PROVE IT. Name a single good player Dirk has played with during his career in Dallas. Don't say Nash because we all know Nash wasn't good in Dallas and didn't actually start trying until he got his own team.

For all the crap people talk about Dirk going out in the first round as a high seed a few times, they fail to realize Dirk has never had any help. His best player was pretty much Josh Howard WHO WAS A SECOND ROUND PICK and an overall awful person and teammate.

Get Dirk a Manu and Parker. Get Dirk a Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Get Dirk a Gasol and Odom. Everyone talks about how great LeBron is but fail to realize he hasn't won anything, but he'll probably win a ring this year. Why? Because they brought Jamison over and he finally got some help!

Nobody can do it by themselves. The funny thing is, DIRK ALMOST DID yet all he does is get crapped on.

Next time you want to bash Dirk, ask yourself, 'who has he really played with?' and I bet you'll change your mind and start to appreciate him.

[6thManOfTheYear]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200705030GSW.html

[D3vIrGiNiz3r]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200705030GSW.html

Look at the team he had to carry.

[ReturnofJPR]

Who cares? Dirk is supposed to be a Wade, Bron, or Melo.

Dirk is a choker. Darn white guys...

[imnew09]

Look at the team he had to carry.
that team got first seeded in the west...
c-mon man
watch some basketballs.

[D3vIrGiNiz3r]

that team got first seeded in the west...
c-mon man
watch some basketballs.

They got the first seed because of Dirk. That team didn't help them win any regular season games. Once the playoffs hit and the defense focused on Dirk forcing his team to beat them and they couldn't because they're garbage. Look what Devin Harris did in Jersey. Almost broke the record for worst team ever and that was Dirk's best player.

[Poodle]

nash was great in dallas imo. he just wasn't dominating the ball like he is with the sun's. he's probably the best player dirk has ever played with, while i'd say dirks current surrounding cast is highly overrated in a lot of different ways.

[ReturnofJPR]

nash was great in dallas imo. he just wasn't dominating the ball like he is with the sun's. he's probably the best player dirk has ever played with, while i'd say dirks current surrounding cast is highly overrated in a lot of different ways.

Well, that's because Nash is a system PG. He thrives in PHX but wouldn't thrive anywhere else (to the level that he is thriving now) unless he played in NY or Golden State.

[phoenix18]

I feel you, but Dirk is one of the worst examples to use this argument on.

Dirk had a lot of good teammates.

Devin Harris and Jason Kidd.

Terry and Howard.

Stackhouse and Marion.

Jamison and Walker.

Butler and Haywood.

Early years: All-Star Guard Michael Finley.

He's also had solid benches as well. I am not saying that most of his teams were stacked, but he had quality teams most of the time. Three good coaches: Nellie,Johnson and R.C.

He has a very active owner who is dedicated to winning and willing to spend money to do so.

Other players of his generation consistently had way less but are looked upon less favorably.

[emsteez forreal]

so you're saying that his teams weren't good, yet he's had a few top 3-seeded teams?

[kurple]

Dallas had the deepest team in the league this year.

Kidd, Terry, Butler, Marion, Haywood, Damp + Barea and Roddy.

Everyone was going on and on about how the Mavs were better on paper than the Lakers.

Dallas got outcoached, and Dirk would be much better as a second option.

[Poodle]

Well, that's because Nash is a system PG. He thrives in PHX but wouldn't thrive anywhere else (to the level that he is thriving now) unless he played in NY or Golden State.

anyone will thrive that much more when they become the complete basis of a run and gun offense. its like ginobli in the past vs ginobli with the keys, HUGE difference.

nash can excel anywhere. it just took him going to a team where he became the catalyst for everything, more than giving the ball to other stars for iso's, and playing more halfcourt'sh.

[D3vIrGiNiz3r]

I feel you, but Dirk is one of the worst examples to use this argument on.

Dirk had a lot of good teammates.

Devin Harris and Jason Kidd.

Terry and Howard.

Stackhouse and Marion.

Jamison and Walker.

Butler and Haywood.

Early years: All-Star Guard Michael Finley.

He's also had solid benches as well. I am not saying that most of his teams were stacked, but he had quality teams most of the time. Three good coaches: Nellie,Johnson and R.C.

He has a very active owner who is dedicated to winning and willing to spend money to do so.

Other players of his generation consistently had way less but are looked upon less favorably.

This is my point. None of these guys are good and I feel bad for anyone who thinks they are. lol@all star guard Michael Finley.

[NY-Knicks]

thats correct, he didnt have a legit 2nd option in his prime.
But, he has had GREAT supporting casts. He had many players on his team who were able to step up and score 20 a night or be able to contribute in other ways. For instance guys like Steve Nash, Jason Terry, Josh Howard and Michael Finley.

He has had supporting casts, they were up 2-0 against a Heat team who in my opinion were less talented (old veterans like Walker, Payton, Zo, Williams) and relied a lot on DWade. Dirk 'carried' a team with Jason Terry, Josh Howard, Devin Harris and Jerry Stackhouse to the finals.

[phoenix18]

This is my point. None of these guys are good and I feel bad for anyone who thinks they are. lol@all star guard Michael Finley.
:wtf: Finley was a legit baller. Kidd is not good? Harris is not good? Howard?Caron?

Come on you're undermining your argument right now.

[NY-Knicks]

This is my point. None of these guys are good and I feel bad for anyone who thinks they are. lol@all star guard Michael Finley.


these guys are good, especially when you have a lot of them together on one team.
and go check out who Michael Finley was back in the day.
Seriously, go do that, come back and shut the f-ck up.

[Poodle]

Dallas had the deepest team in the league this year.

Kidd, Terry, Butler, Marion, Haywood, Damp + Barea and Roddy.

Everyone was going on and on about how the Mavs were better on paper than the Lakers.

Dallas got outcoached, and Dirk would be much better as a second option.

except that most of those players have huge question marks surrounding aspects of their game, and are all very inconsistent, especially offensively.

i agree the coaching was terrible tho. i still don't get why coaches play guys in the last month of the season as a regular part of their rotations that do well, and then completely bench them in the playoffs.

still there were signs they weren't a great team throughout the regular season where they'd lose easy games and were just very inconsistent in what they won. kidd would have a huge game one night, and be the weak linkg they were daring to shoot another night. marion/caron/etc. all have these type of issues more than a lot of other players around the league. terry played really well during the season for the most part tho, only one other than dirk i can think of that was rather consistent.

[ReturnofJPR]

Poodle, Kidd is a hall of famer. Why are you questioning him? Besides, D. Harris is a Top 5 PG in the game. He just tanked this year so the Nets could get #1. D. Harris has been special ever since his Wiksy Badger days.

[Poodle]

Poodle, Kidd is a hall of famer. Why are you questioning him? Besides, D. Harris is a Top 5 PG in the game. He just tanked this year so the Nets could get #1.


do you even watch players play rather than just sum up their legacy and stats?

sorry that crap doesn't mean crap to me more than what i see in the games, and kidd IS an offensive liability a LOT of times and tbh the way people portray it here like he's better than nash is retarded.

no offense but i'd swear a lot of you don't actually watch a lot of the bball you talk about, more than sum it uup with stats and accolades.

kidd especially in some crucial moments, is an offensive liability, and the other team knows it. you have dirk expected to carry the load, with the 2nd best option being terry for their offense, because everyone else on that team is just not that type of scorer. definitely not with any consistency.

the stuff people here praise happens so rarely compared to the every play stuff its just silly to me. like when people focus on defense so much, how often is artest getting a steal to make that difference? 3-4 times a game at most? how many 3's is he chucking and missing? driving layups/passes he's blowing? just like kidd's boards, passes that aren't nearly as profound each time as ginobli's, but people see the stats and act like he's infallible.

[phoenix18]

do you even watch players play rather than just sum up their legacy and stats?

sorry that crap doesn't mean crap to me more than what i see in the games, and kidd IS an offensive liability a LOT of times and tbh the way people portray it here like he's better than nash is retarded.

no offense but i'd swear a lot of you don't actually watch a lot of the bball you talk about, more than sum it uup with stats and accolades.
Nash is better than Kidd now but not career wise.

[6thManOfTheYear]

Look what Devin Harris did in Jersey. Almost broke the record for worst team ever and that was Dirk's best player.

devin harris averaged 13.2 ppg shooting 49% for the mavs in the playoff series where they loss to the warriors.

[NY-Knicks]

do you even watch players play rather than just sum up their legacy and stats?

sorry that crap doesn't mean crap to me more than what i see in the games, and kidd IS an offensive liability a LOT of times and tbh the way people portray it here like he's better than nash is retarded.

no offense but i'd swear a lot of you don't actually watch a lot of the bball you talk about, more than sum it uup with stats and accolades.


Jason Kidd isnt the player he used to be but is not a liability on offense. He is still a capable player and the last time I checked his court vision and passing didnt dissapear. He is a clear-cut leader on this team, no doubt. You can not underestimate what Jason Kidd brings to the table, you just can't.
Oh, and who says he is better than Steve Nash this season?

[ReturnofJPR]

do you even watch players play rather than just sum up their legacy and stats?

sorry that crap doesn't mean crap to me more than what i see in the games, and kidd IS an offensive liability a LOT of times and tbh the way people portray it here like he's better than nash is retarded.

no offense but i'd swear a lot of you don't actually watch a lot of the bball you talk about, more than sum it uup with stats and accolades.

Hey you could say he is old or actually attack his game rather than a poster that challenges your opinion. I take it, you don't really have the information to back up what you are saying.

[Poodle]

Hey you could say he is old or actually attack his game rather than a poster that challenges your opinion. I take it, you don't really have the information to back up what you are saying.


i'm not even trying to attack you more than sum up your reply to me(which was completely based on career accolades). its also why i said sorry since i didn't want to come across as too insulting out of the blue like that.

i think anyone that has watched the mav's knows there have been MANY moments where kidd was a offensive liability when it counts, and his hit and miss supposedly improved 3pt shot isn't anything anyone can really count on, more than it being a point above a prayer.

it also drives me crazy is a lot of kidd's passes aren't anywhere near where he's praised so much for passing. don't get me wrong he's great, but on a play to play lvl, or pass to pass, each one of manu's has a WAY greater effect.

[Poodle]

Jason Kidd isnt the player he used to be but is not a liability on offense. He is still a capable player and the last time I checked his court vision and passing didnt dissapear. He is a clear-cut leader on this team, no doubt. You can not underestimate what Jason Kidd brings to the table, you just can't.
Oh, and who says he is better than Steve Nash this season?

there was some thread a while back that made the comparison, and some regulars here trying to act the authority like kidd in NJ was a hof legend and carried whatshisname(for denver now), and is easily better than nash. something like that :rolleyes:

just watch the games. there is no way you could really pretend he is that great right now if you did, and actually paid attention to what he does. not just 1 game where he's all over the court and gets a triple double, i mean include the next 2 or 3 where he's a pathetically average pg really not doing much, and being an offensive liability. especially when they're doubling dirk, and he's the open kickout they're daring to drive/shoot.

[NY-Knicks]

there was some thread a while back that made the comparison, and some regulars here trying to act the authority like kidd in NJ was a hof legend and carried whatshisname(for denver now), and is easily better than nash. something like that :rolleyes:

just watch the games. there is no way you could really pretend he is that great right now if you did, and actually paid attention to what he does. not just 1 game where he's all over the court and gets a triple double, i mean include the next 2 or 3 where he's a pathetically average pg really not doing much, and being an offensive liability. especially when they're doubling dirk, and he's the open kickout they're daring to drive/shoot.


so you are saying that career wise; Nash > Kidd

[GiveItToBurrito]

Josh Howard was a good player. Antawn Jamison was and still is a legit second option. The Mavs' problem is that they have too many mediocre guys and not enough role players. "Ooh, we'll bring in Antoine Walker/Caron Butler/Marion/Kidd, teams have been built around them, so they've got to be good enough that they'll be even better as fourth option." It's ridiculous. Some players are decent all-around players, but they suck as role players. Caron Butler needs the ball to score, he defends poorly compared to, say, Matt Barnes or James Posey, and he's poor when it comes to hitting open threes. Kidd is actually a step in the right direction for them, since he can do an above-average job guarding shooting guards, he can pass and rebound, and he can hit open threes.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the Mavericks' problem is is that they don't defend and they can't hit open shots, and those are the two things you want out of pretty much everyone who's not a top three player on your team.

[Bosnian Sajo]

What an idiot :oldlol:

[Poodle]

so you are saying that career wise; Nash > Kidd


now and career wise. kidd to me is overrated, but that is more based on where a lot of nba fans put him, not that i think he isn't a great or anything. the difference nash makes in a game, far outweighs the passes and offensive boarding that occasioanlly happens from kidd. kidd's distributing is imo one of the most overrated things about him, mostly because he's known for it, and fans tend to put it on lvls that are so much above someone like nash, when its not.

llike i said in another thread, each one of manu's passes is way more profound than most of kidd's. but kidd will be remembered as the greatest passer ever next to Magic, which is just not true imo.

[MK2V1GP]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! I thought this was a bumped thread from like 8 years ago, I CANNOT believe someone's actually making up this excuse that he's had no talent around him. What a sore loser.

Dirk has had WAY better talent around him throughout his career than KG has.

KG's talented/best teammates:
Pierce
Ray Allen
Sam Cassell (for 1 year)
Latrell Sprewell (for 1.5 years)
Tom Gugliotta (and he's pushing it on the "best" area)
Stephon Marbury (for a couple years)

All stars that Dirk has played with:
Nash
PRIME Finley
Jamison
Butler
Josh Howard
Marion
Jason Kidd
other good players Dirk's played with:
Nick Van Exel
Prime Raef Lafrentz
Antoine Walker
Devin Harris
Jason Terry
and there's more...

This thread is so full of fail. Dirk has had PLENTY of talent around him to succeed. Don't be one of "those" fans dude. Seriously.

[GiveItToBurrito]

now and career wise. kidd to me is overrated, but that is more based on where a lot of nba fans put him, not that i think he isn't a great or anything. the difference nash makes in a game, far outweighs the passes and offensive boarding that occasioanlly happens from kidd. kidd's distributing is imo one of the most overrated things about him, mostly because he's known for it, and fans tend to put it on lvls that are so much above someone like nash, when its not.

llike i said in another thread, each one of manu's passes is way more profound than most of kidd's. but kidd will be remembered as the greatest passer ever next to Magic, which is just not true imo.

I hate to say it, but I agree here. Kidd's a great passer, but I think that his inability to score counterbalanced this a bit. To me, he's been the ultimate role player - a great passer and rebounder who was probably the best perimeter defender in the league for a good decade, while Nash instantly makes any team he's on somewhere between great and historically great on offense.

[WhySoInsecure?]

now and career wise. kidd to me is overrated, but that is more based on where a lot of nba fans put him, not that i think he isn't a great or anything. the difference nash makes in a game, far outweighs the passes and offensive boarding that occasioanlly happens from kidd. kidd's distributing is imo one of the most overrated things about him, mostly because he's known for it, and fans tend to put it on lvls that are so much above someone like nash, when its not.

llike i said in another thread, each one of manu's passes is way more profound than most of kidd's. but kidd will be remembered as the greatest passer ever next to Magic, which is just not true imo.
Kidd is to Nash what Duncan is to Dirk. Nash puts up numbers but there hasn't been a player in this league he could guard. Dirk get his buckets but is not a post presence and is worthless on defense.

[GiveItToBurrito]

HAHAHAHAHA!!!! I thought this was a bumped thread from like 8 years ago, I CANNOT believe someone's actually making up this excuse that he's had no talent around him. What a sore loser.

Dirk has had WAY better talent around him throughout his career than KG has.

KG's talented/best teammates:
Pierce
Ray Allen
Sam Cassell (for 1 year)
Latrell Sprewell (for 1.5 years)
Tom Gugliotta (and he's pushing it on the "best" area)
Stephon Marbury (for a couple years)

All stars that Dirk has played with:
Nash
PRIME Finley
Jamison
Butler
Josh Howard
Marion
Jason Kidd
other good players Dirk's played with:
Nick Van Exel
Prime Raef Lafrentz
Antoine Walker
Devin Harris
Jason Terry
and there's more...

This thread is so full of fail. Dirk has had PLENTY of talent around him to succeed. Don't be one of "those" fans dude. Seriously.

It's also not like Dirk hasn't accomplished anything. He had a couple of deep playoff runs, made the Finals, won 67 games one year. It just sucks for him (and Phoenix and to a lesser extent Sacramento) that he had to play at the same time as some Laker and Spur dynasties. Also, the difference between him and KG accomplishments wise is one ring as opposed to one Finals appearance. It's not like Dirk has consistently been on underachieving teams (for the record, I don't think Dallas underachieved this year, at least not any less than Utah or Portland did last year).

[dawsey6]

I hear all this noise about how Dirks teams have been so deep over the years, but have they really?

PROVE IT. Name a single good player Dirk has played with during his career in Dallas. Don't say Nash because we all know Nash wasn't good in Dallas and didn't actually start trying until he got his own team.

For all the crap people talk about Dirk going out in the first round as a high seed a few times, they fail to realize Dirk has never had any help. His best player was pretty much Josh Howard WHO WAS A SECOND ROUND PICK and an overall awful person and teammate.

Get Dirk a Manu and Parker. Get Dirk a Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Get Dirk a Gasol and Odom. Everyone talks about how great LeBron is but fail to realize he hasn't won anything, but he'll probably win a ring this year. Why? Because they brought Jamison over and he finally got some help!

Nobody can do it by themselves. The funny thing is, DIRK ALMOST DID yet all he does is get crapped on.

Next time you want to bash Dirk, ask yourself, 'who has he really played with?' and I bet you'll change your mind and start to appreciate him.

Nash was an all-star on the Mavs and from 2001-2004 averaged 16/3/7 on 49%/41%/90%, 18/3/8 on 48%/46%/89%, 18/3/7 on 47%/41%/91%, and 15/3/9 on 47%/41%/92%, respectively. Need I remind you that Nash and Dirk became legit stars in the same year (00-01) and that was their first 50-win season.

But, no, he wasn't a good player:rolleyes: . Not even trying:rolleyes: .

[NY-Knicks]

now and career wise. kidd to me is overrated, but that is more based on where a lot of nba fans put him, not that i think he isn't a great or anything. the difference nash makes in a game, far outweighs the passes and offensive boarding that occasioanlly happens from kidd. kidd's distributing is imo one of the most overrated things about him, mostly because he's known for it, and fans tend to put it on lvls that are so much above someone like nash, when its not.

llike i said in another thread, each one of manu's passes is way more profound than most of kidd's. but kidd will be remembered as the greatest passer ever next to Magic, which is just not true imo.


have you ever seen Kidd play before he went to Dallas?
it's the way he transforms teams and makes people around him better. Nash does the same thing but is a terrible defender, Kidd in his younger days was a very capable defender and a great rebounder. Not to mention the fact that Nash was a very late bloomer. By that time Kidd had already created himself a legacy.

[NY-Knicks]

Kidd is to Nash what Duncan is to Dirk. Nash puts up numbers but there hasn't been a player in this league he could guard. Dirk get his buckets but is not a post presence and is worthless on defense.

so true.

[Nanners]

lol what a dumb thread. maybe dirk never had a superstar, but he is a damn league MVP, he is supposed to be the superstar.

[NY-Knicks]

I hate to say it, but I agree here. Kidd's a great passer, but I think that his inability to score counterbalanced this a bit. To me, he's been the ultimate role player - a great passer and rebounder who was probably the best perimeter defender in the league for a good decade, while Nash instantly makes any team he's on somewhere between great and historically great on offense.


the ultimate role player :roll:

[MK2V1GP]

It's also not like Dirk hasn't accomplished anything. He had a couple of deep playoff runs, made the Finals, won 67 games one year. It just sucks for him (and Phoenix and to a lesser extent Sacramento) that he had to play at the same time as some Laker and Spur dynasties. Also, the difference between him and KG accomplishments wise is one ring as opposed to one Finals appearance. It's not like Dirk has consistently been on underachieving teams (for the record, I don't think Dallas underachieved this year, at least not any less than Utah or Portland did last year).

Exactly my point. And KG has accomplished more than Dirk, with less talent around him consistently, but that wasn't really my point.

BUT, I wouldnt consider one Finals run where they lost 4 straight games "success" then you must consider the fact that in a span of 3 seasons, they managed to become the only franchise in history to lose to a 8 seed and 7 seed in the 1st round. That's awful.

And I don't even hate Dirk, but I just think this topic is ridiculous. Dirk not having talent around him is an outrageous thing to say.

[dawsey6]

This is my point. None of these guys are good and I feel bad for anyone who thinks they are. lol@all star guard Michael Finley.

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/michael_finley/career_stats.html

Played two all-star games. 2000 and 2001. After that, 22/5/4, 21/5/3, 19/6/3, 19/5/3, and 16/4/3.

But no, he also was terrible player:rolleyes: .

[Showtime]

God I'm so sick of this argument. No, Dirk has never played with a top 5 player like a Lebron or Kobe. But what Dirk has had is a lot of solid players top to bottom, with several all star players.

For example, would anybody call Nick Van Exel a great player? No. But he was good enough to average 25 PPG in a playoff series including games of 36, 40, and 35 points to SAVE DIRK'S ASS in 2003, and that was alongside Nash doing his thing as well.

And I guess Antwan is good enough for Lebron, but he's not good enough for Dirk.

And players like Finley were exactly what people are calling for now: an allstar swingman who could score on his own. And Dirk had that.

Howard is a scrub now, but in his prime he was a very solid defensive player, and although he was a black hole offensively, he had his moments and most people called him an underrated SF.

And players like Najera are needed on any team. Every good team has that hustle banger who can come in, play defense, give a few fouls and make plays. And Najera did that by often playing good defense on guys like Chris Webber and Duncan.

And then there's Nash.

Don't tell me Dirk has never had good TEAMS, because although he's never had a Lebron James, he's had solid teams with solid players who were good enough to compete with any team in the league, and that's why he's had so much regular season success. You don't win 67 games by yourself.

[AK47DR91]

Nash was really good in Dallas during his last three seasons as a Mavs. Not as great as he is as a Suns but still good enough to be considered the #2 guy.

Only problem is the Spurs(Duncan & crew) and Lakers(Shaq, Kobe and crew) were 5 times better than them during that stint.

[NY-Knicks]

Exactly my point. And KG has accomplished more than Dirk, with less talent around him consistently, but that wasn't really my point.

BUT, I wouldnt consider one Finals run where they lost 4 straight games "success" then you must consider the fact that in a span of 3 seasons, they managed to become the only franchise in history to lose to a 8 seed and 7 seed in the 1st round. That's awful.

And I don't even hate Dirk, but I just think this topic is ridiculous. Dirk not having talent around him is an outrageous thing to say.


KG really changed the identity of that Celtics team. It was all about defense, which is also the reason why Duncan won so many championships, and the Pistons in '04, not to mention that those Lakers teams we not bad defensively at all.

Defense wins championships = reason why Nash and Dirk haven't won it all. They are very talented offensively but neither is good defensively, of course it is all about team defense and their GM's haven't created decent defensive teams to surround them.

[NY-Knicks]

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/michael_finley/career_stats.html

Played two all-star games. 2000 and 2001. After that, 22/5/4, 21/5/3, 19/6/3, 19/5/3, and 16/4/3.

But no, he also was terrible player:rolleyes: .


he was great back then.

[Wukillabeez78]

Dirk has played with many good players throughout his career. His teammates over the years have always included guys who were all-stars themselves. Dirk's played on teams that were good enough to win or should have won (like vs the Heat in 2006).

The problem is people who still think Dirk himself is something more than good player. Dirk isn't a great player. Dirk is only a good player himself. Skillwise Dirk is certainly a great player. But skills aren't the only thing that makes a player great. To be great a player must have the skills but they must also have the mindset. Dirk doesn't possess this. Dirk doesn't have the same mindset other great players had that were great. Dirk isn't a vocal leader and he doesn't have the same intensity (win at all costs) type of presence that is required to win. Like I said on another thread, Dirk gets hit or bullied by someone like Matt Bonner and then looks for the ref for help. Jordan's mindset was if you hit me or try to punk anyone on my team I'll take care of it myself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0CKXDxFQJw
Jordan punched Will Perdue in practice because Perdue was setting better picks in practice than he did in the games. Isiah Thomas was the same way. Larry Bird as well. Larry was confident, cocky, would talk shit and rip your heart out. These guys made their teammates better because they were great leaders and were willing to sacrifice their individual brilliance a bit to win. You can't compare Dirk to any of these truly great players because like I said, he doesn't have the same mindset they did. Dirk is a good player who needs to be paired with a great one to finally win. Dirk will never win a championship as the best player on his team. Dirk is Pau Gasol before he joined forces with a great player (Kobe). Dirk is David Robinson before San Antonio lucked out and he got paired with a great player (Duncan). Dirk, Gasol and Robinson are or were very good players and could have been great had they had that mindset the great ones possess.

[dawsey6]

God I'm so sick of this argument. No, Dirk has never played with a top 5 player like a Lebron or Kobe. But what Dirk has had is a lot of solid players top to bottom, with several all star players.

For example, would anybody call Nick Van Exel a great player? No. But he was good enough to average 25 PPG in a playoff series including games of 36, 40, and 35 points to SAVE DIRK'S ASS in 2003, and that was alongside Nash doing his thing as well.

And I guess Antwan is good enough for Lebron, but he's not good enough for Dirk.

And players like Finley were exactly what people are calling for now: an allstar swingman who could score on his own. And Dirk had that.

Howard is a scrub now, but in his prime he was a very solid defensive player, and although he was a black hole offensively, he had his moments and most people called him an underrated SF.

And players like Najera are needed on any team. Every good team has that hustle banger who can come in, play defense, give a few fouls and make plays. And Najera did that by often playing good defense on guys like Chris Webber and Duncan.

And then there's Nash.

Don't tell me Dirk has never had good TEAMS, because although he's never had a Lebron James, he's had solid teams with solid players who were good enough to compete with any team in the league, and that's why he's had so much regular season success. You don't win 67 games by yourself.

I forgot all about Nick Van Exel! He was a deadly shooter for that team. Mavs were a fun team to watch circa 2001, man. Dirk was on some deep teams.

[GiveItToBurrito]

God I'm so sick of this argument. No, Dirk has never played with a top 5 player like a Lebron or Kobe. But what Dirk has had is a lot of solid players top to bottom, with several all star players.

For example, would anybody call Nick Van Exel a great player? No. But he was good enough to average 25 PPG in a playoff series including games of 36, 40, and 35 points to SAVE DIRK'S ASS in 2003, and that was alongside Nash doing his thing as well.

And I guess Antwan is good enough for Lebron, but he's not good enough for Dirk.

And players like Finley were exactly what people are calling for now: an allstar swingman who could score on his own. And Dirk had that.

Howard is a scrub now, but in his prime he was a very solid defensive player, and although he was a black hole offensively, he had his moments and most people called him an underrated SF.

And players like Najera are needed on any team. Every good team has that hustle banger who can come in, play defense, give a few fouls and make plays. And Najera did that by often playing good defense on guys like Chris Webber and Duncan.

And then there's Nash.

Don't tell me Dirk has never had good TEAMS, because although he's never had a Lebron James, he's had solid teams with solid players who were good enough to compete with any team in the league, and that's why he's had so much regular season success. You don't win 67 games by yourself.

I'm disgusted that a lot of fans seem to use that as their definition of "another great player". The only times we've seen multiple top 20 guys on the same team since the 80s that I can think of were the Spurs (dynasty) Lakers (two dynasties) and Jazz (minus MJ, dynasty).

[HorryIsMyMVP]

Dirk and MJ would still lose down the stretch :oldlol:

[Showtime]

Oh, and Stackhouse before he completely fell apart. He was a good #3 or #4 guy with 14/3/2.

[NY-Knicks]

Oh, and Stackhouse before he completely fell apart. He was a good #3 or #4 guy with 14/3/2.


and still able to put up big numbers from time to time.

[NY-Knicks]

God I'm so sick of this argument. No, Dirk has never played with a top 5 player like a Lebron or Kobe. But what Dirk has had is a lot of solid players top to bottom, with several all star players.

For example, would anybody call Nick Van Exel a great player? No. But he was good enough to average 25 PPG in a playoff series including games of 36, 40, and 35 points to SAVE DIRK'S ASS in 2003, and that was alongside Nash doing his thing as well.

And I guess Antwan is good enough for Lebron, but he's not good enough for Dirk.

And players like Finley were exactly what people are calling for now: an allstar swingman who could score on his own. And Dirk had that.

Howard is a scrub now, but in his prime he was a very solid defensive player, and although he was a black hole offensively, he had his moments and most people called him an underrated SF.

And players like Najera are needed on any team. Every good team has that hustle banger who can come in, play defense, give a few fouls and make plays. And Najera did that by often playing good defense on guys like Chris Webber and Duncan.

And then there's Nash.

Don't tell me Dirk has never had good TEAMS, because although he's never had a Lebron James, he's had solid teams with solid players who were good enough to compete with any team in the league, and that's why he's had so much regular season success. You don't win 67 games by yourself.

:applause:

[Showtime]

and still able to put up big numbers from time to time.
That's the thing: most of the guys around Dirk were not all-nba first team guys, but what they were were solid enough players to compete at an all star level any given night. Some guys could blow up for 30+ and they had multiple guys like that.

[ReturnofJPR]

Dirk should be traded ASAP.

They can get a good young player, a couple of expiring draft picks, plus 2 first round draft picks for him.

[Poodle]

Kidd is to Nash what Duncan is to Dirk. Nash puts up numbers but there hasn't been a player in this league he could guard. Dirk get his buckets but is not a post presence and is worthless on defense.


i said this earlier but with the way some of you focus on D like this so much which doesn't happen nearly every play whre he's getting abused like you're acting, especially in relation to what he does almost every play on the offensive end.

its just like the ron artest analogies i made. even then shots fall for some players where no D is going to stop it, and shots don't fall for some players even if they have wide open looks. but everyone always wants to attach that to some D theory.

[Anaximandro1]

I hear all this noise about how Dirks teams have been so deep over the years, but have they really?

PROVE IT.
Dirk has always had stacked teams.

2000-01


Dirk 21.8 ppg,9.2 rpg

Finley 21.5 ppg,5.2 rpg

Howard 17.8 ppg,7.1 rpg

Nash 15.6 ppg,7.3 apg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2001.html

2001-2002



Dirk 23.4 ppg,9.9 rpg

Finley 20.6 ppg,5.2 rpg

Nash 17.9 ppg,7.7 apg

Van Exel 13.2 ppg,4.2 apg

Howard 12.9 ppg,7.4 rpg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2002.html

2002-2003



Dirk 25.1 ppg,9.9 rpg

Finley 19.3 ppg,5.8 rpg

Nash 17.7 ppg,7.3 apg

Van Exel 12.5 ppg,4.3 apg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2003.html

2003-2004



Dirk 21.8 ppg,8.7 rpg

Finley 18.6 ppg,4.5 rpg

Jamison 14.8 ppg,6.3 rpg

Nash 14.5 ppg,8.8 apg

Toine 14.0 ppg,8.3 rpg

Howard 8.6 ppg,5.5rpg

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2004.html

Lebron,KG,Duncan,Shaq... would have multiple rings.

[Showtime]

I can only imagine what the Dirk fans would say if he played with some of the teams KG had...

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Oh, and Stackhouse before he completely fell apart. He was a good #3 or #4 guy with 14/3/2.

So 14/3/2 is considered to be "good" nowadays? Wow. Talk about a liberal definition.

Then I guess The Sacramento Kings in today's NBA have a bunch of good NBA players. Beno Udrich averaged 13/3/5 last year. And how many on this board would call him a good player?

Dirk has played with some talented guys. The problem with some of them as they have either playedr Dirk's position: (Jamison/Walker) or they were undersized tweener's (NVE/Terry) who couldn't guard anyone, or they couldn't be a post presennce (Bradley/Dampier/Haywood/LaFrentz), or they couldn't drive (Finley/Howard/Butler/Marion) because of their lack of handles.

[Poodle]

have you ever seen Kidd play before he went to Dallas?
it's the way he transforms teams and makes people around him better. Nash does the same thing but is a terrible defender, Kidd in his younger days was a very capable defender and a great rebounder. Not to mention the fact that Nash was a very late bloomer. By that time Kidd had already created himself a legacy.


yeah i have, i watched him a lot in NJ. you have to remember he had the keys to that team, and they had a lot of injuries at different times(kittles and kenyon were both injury prone, including kidd back then too) whre he was doing everything, but that also adds or over-exaggerates what he is good at doing on a better team.

and frankly the way people try and portray it like kidd gave kenyon all of his buckets is a joke. all i'd see half the time was kidd pushing it on a break to kenyon ahead on the wing, and kenyon flying in dunking it. then people will turn it into kidd made kenyon, and the plays like kidd completely set him up like PG's that drive and bring 3 defenders, and dish for the easy bucket. sorry thats not how easy he made it, and he doesn't regularly make it that easy. manu makes it that easy more often than kidd, discounting fast breaks here.

[6thManOfTheYear]

So 14/3/2 is considered to be "good" nowadays? Wow. Talk about a liberal definition.


off the bench...yes.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

off the bench...yes.

Even though he plays starter's minutes?

[Showtime]

So 14/3/2 is considered to be "good" nowadays? Wow. Talk about a liberal definition.

For a third or fourth player? Absolutely. How many 4th options produce that and can still blow up every now and then for 30+?


Then I guess The Sacramento Kings in today's NBA have a bunch of good NBA players. Beno Udrich averaged 13/3/5 last year. And how many on this board would call him a good player?

He was one of the most efficient PG's in the league, despite splitting minutes with Evans at the point. He shot 49.4%, 38% from 3, and 84% from the FT line and was very consistent. He had a better AST/TOV ratio than Andre Miller, Nelson, Westbrook, Jennings, Parker, etc. So yes, I would characterize his play this season as being a "solid" point guard.

But Beno is not even remotely in consideration for being an allstar, yet most of the players I listed were.


Dirk has played with some talented guys. The problem with some of them as they have either playedr Dirk's position: (Jamison/Walker) or they were undersized tweener's (NVE/Terry) who couldn't guard anyone, or they couldn't be a post presennce (Bradley/Dampier/Haywood/LaFrentz), or they couldn't drive (Finley/Howard/Butler/Marion) because of their lack of handles.

So, Dirk has had talent, just not the right kind of talent, is that right?

[KoRn]

yeah i have, i watched him a lot in NJ. you have to remember he had the keys to that team, and they had a lot of injuries at different times(kittles and kenyon were both injury prone, including kidd back then too) whre he was doing everything, but that also adds or over-exaggerates what he is good at doing on a better team.

and frankly the way people try and portray it like kidd gave kenyon all of his buckets is a joke. all i'd see half the time was kidd pushing it on a break to kenyon ahead on the wing, and kenyon flying in dunking it. then people will turn it into kidd made kenyon, and the plays like kidd completely set him up like PG's that drive and bring 3 defenders, and dish for the easy bucket. sorry thats not how easy he made it, and he doesn't regularly make it that easy. manu makes it that easy more often than kidd, discounting fast breaks here.

does nash make amare? kidd and nash both maker other players better. you can't make a claim with one and not the other.

[6thManOfTheYear]

Even though he plays starter's minutes?

the last 5 6th man of the year winners have played over 30+ minutes

stack only played 28 a game when he was getting about 15 ppg. i would hardly call those legit starter minutes.

[ILLsmak]

Hey, I think Dirk gets a bad rap, but anyone who thinks he is on the level of LeBron and Shaq is crazy. Duncan, to some extent, too, although one could argue that with the Spurs team he would have gotten at least one ring. Especially back when D Rob was still playing decently. That would be deadly.

Tough luck for the Mavs, you know... they are missing some pieces, apparently. They didn't have a knock down shooter this year. Terry was broke in the playoffs. You need one of those. They didn't really have a big man that was able to succeed, either.

Butler showed up... but that was only in two games.

I expected Butler to be doing 20 ppg every game on good percentages, I expected Terry to be wetting, and I expected Haywood to be a force... at least the combo of both of them to be a force. None of that happened. They all played like shit. The only player that played well was Dirk.

27 points, 8 boards, 3 assists... less than 2 turnovers. on 55% from the field and 95 from the line...

What more could he have done? Did he take some bad shots down the stretch? Probably... he had a bad turnover in the end of g6, too, but for awhile there he was the only person doing anything.

HE HAD 33 POINTS ON 21 SHOTS! What else did you want him to do? Nobody else showed up. It's not Dirk's fault.

-Smak

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

For a third or fourth player? Absolutely. How many 4th options produce that and can still blow up every now and then for 30+?

He was one of the most efficient PG's in the league, despite splitting minutes with Evans at the point. He shot 49.4%, 38% from 3, and 84% from the FT line and was very consistent. He had a better AST/TOV ratio than Andre Miller, Nelson, Westbrook, Jennings, Parker, etc. So yes, I would characterize his play this season as being a "solid" point guard.

But Beno is not even remotely in consideration for being an allstar, yet most of the players I listed were.

So if Beno is not considered "good" then you can't say Stackhouse is "good." Both are about the same in terms of production/quality. Stackhouse had the better career but for a season or two with the Mavs and the season or two with the Kings, Beno is on par with Stackhouse.


So, Dirk has had talent, just not the right kind of talent, is that right?

Dirk has never had a true second option. Or he has never had a true first option (making him a second option).

He has always player with some talented guys who were at best third options (a la Jason Terry). But in the playoffs, a team needs a couple of guys who are second bananas.

[Wukillabeez78]

So 14/3/2 is considered to be "good" nowadays? Wow. Talk about a liberal definition.

Then I guess The Sacramento Kings in today's NBA have a bunch of good NBA players. Beno Udrich averaged 13/3/5 last year. And how many on this board would call him a good player?

Dirk has played with some talented guys. The problem with some of them as they have either playedr Dirk's position: (Jamison/Walker) or they were undersized tweener's (NVE/Terry) who couldn't guard anyone, or they couldn't be a post presennce (Bradley/Dampier/Haywood/LaFrentz), or they couldn't drive (Finley/Howard/Butler/Marion) because of their lack of handles.

A player who averages 14/3/2 is definitely a good. Far more players in the league average fewer than 14 points a game than score more than that. Beno is a good player because he's getting those numbers playing 30 minutes a game, not 38-40 minutes. Almost every player in the league is good and could attain solid numbers if given enough minutes.

Like I said in my post on the previous page, the problem isn't Dirk's teammates. The problem is with Dirk or to be specific, the issue is those people who think Dirk is anything more than a good player himself. All you people who think Dirk is great or is a superstar himself do so strictly based on his statistics. Statistics aren't all that's required to be great. To be great you must have the skills as well as the mindset. Dirk has the skills but doesn't possess this mindset. Again, like I said in my prior post; Dirk is like Pau Gasol before he joined forces with a truly great player in Kobe. Dirk is David Robinson before the Spurs lucked out and got a truly great player (Duncan). Dirk, Gasol and Robinson are very good players, even great solely based on their skill. But they don't have that win at all costs, take control, kill your own mother, mindset required to be called great.

[6thManOfTheYear]

HE HAD 33 POINTS ON 21 SHOTS! What else did you want him to do? Nobody else showed up. It's not Dirk's fault.

-Smak

and only 5 rebounds which is terrible for a star power forward

[dn41]

Oh, and Stackhouse before he completely fell apart. He was a good #3 or #4 guy with 14/3/2.

you forget to mention the FG% (.402) and 3P% (.338). hmm i wonder why.

That being said, to say that Dirk never played with good players is absolutely false. He played with a lot of good players but they sometimes didn't really fit (Walker, Jamsion for example) and most importantly he never was on a team that were favourites to win the title. There were always better teams around (Lakers, Kings, Suns, Spurs, Pistons, Heat). Put Kobe on Dallas and he wouldn't win sh*t either, especially when you consider that Dirk is better than Kobe in the playoffs.

[Poodle]

does nash make amare? kidd and nash both maker other players better. you can't make a claim with one and not the other.


well amare is already known as a great player, and the way he's been playing, one of the top players in the league so nobody is really trying to demean him. but they were kenyon when they tried to give kidd all of the credit for kenyons success back on that NJ team. kenyon did a lot more than kidd supposedly giving him wide open dunks.

and when i'm comparing them both if i ran a team and had to pick one, i'd choose the one that has a bigger impact to winning a game overall, in most plays, not where i focus on the 3-4 steals to justify Artest being so great, some offensive boards and triple dubs in a game where they were average the next 2 or 3 like kidd has been...it would easily be nash. he's bringing it EVERY play offensively down the floor.

i mean of course they both make other players better, but factoring in the every play vs the occasional, or their inconsistencies should be given a lot more weight than it generally is.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

the last 5 6th man of the year winners have played over 30+ minutes

stack only played 28 a game when he was getting about 15 ppg. i would hardly call those legit starter minutes.

Beno Udrich only plays 31 PG. Stackhouse played 29 MPG when he put up 15 PPG.

That really isn't much difference at all.

[6thManOfTheYear]

Beno Udrich only plays 31 PG. Stackhouse played 29 MPG when he put up 15 PPG.

That really isn't much difference at all.

beno also started 41 games compared to stackhouse who only started 7

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

beno also started 41 games compared to stackhouse who only started 11

So? They both played pretty much the same number of minutes.

[6thManOfTheYear]

So? They both played pretty much the same number of minutes.

beno played over 30 minutes 49 times during the season compared to stack who only played over 30 minutes 27 times

how is that even remotely the same minutes?

[Showtime]

So if Beno is not considered "good" then you can't say Stackhouse is "good."

Dude, they are two different types of players in two totally different situations. For what Beno did, which was the second best player on the team, yeah I would say he had a good season because he was, along with evans, the most consistently good player on a bad team.

Conversely, Stackhouse was a former allstar (Beno will never be one) who put up very good numbers for the type of role he played, which was a 3/4 scoring option on a contender. For the job stack was asked to do, he was good. As a #2? No, but he wasn't that. He was on deep team and produced. Any team would love to have a guy in that role produce like that.

So you must look at the situation if you want to consider productivity.


Both are about the same in terms of production/quality. Stackhouse had the better career but for a season or two with the Mavs and the season or two with the Kings, Beno is on par with Stackhouse.

No, they aren't, because they played different roles. Stackhouse wasn't the #2 guy putting up those numbers, he was the 3/4 guy doing it alongside other good scorers. You are totally ignoring the context of each players' situation.


Dirk has never had a true second option. Or he has never had a true first option (making him a second option).

Dirk has had multiple players who were allstars or former all stars who were good scorers, and he often had them on the same team. Don't tell me he never had other options.

[NY-Knicks]

yeah i have, i watched him a lot in NJ. you have to remember he had the keys to that team, and they had a lot of injuries at different times(kittles and kenyon were both injury prone, including kidd back then too) whre he was doing everything, but that also adds or over-exaggerates what he is good at doing on a better team.

and frankly the way people try and portray it like kidd gave kenyon all of his buckets is a joke. all i'd see half the time was kidd pushing it on a break to kenyon ahead on the wing, and kenyon flying in dunking it. then people will turn it into kidd made kenyon, and the plays like kidd completely set him up like PG's that drive and bring 3 defenders, and dish for the easy bucket. sorry thats not how easy he made it, and he doesn't regularly make it that easy. manu makes it that easy more often than kidd, discounting fast breaks here.


but what about team accomplishments and defensive ability?
it's not that I don't respect your opinion, I'd like to know why you would pick Nash over Kidd.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

beno played over 30 minutes 49 times during the season compared to stack who only played over 30 minutes 27 times

how is that even remotely the same minutes?

Because you and I were not talking about "total" minutes for the year but minutes per game. And they both played roughly the same minutes per game.

[6thManOfTheYear]

Because you and I were not talking about "total" minutes for the year but minutes per game. And they both played roughly the same minutes per game.

they're not even the same situation.

one was a bench player in a 6th man role and the other was a starter at the end of the season who started 41 games

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Dirk has had multiple players who were allstars or former all stars who were good scorers, and he often had them on the same team. Don't tell me he never had other options.

I am not talking about "other options." I am talking about second options on offense. Big difference. And you know that, or at least I hope you would.

And what Stack did in the past is irrelevant to the discussion of when he played with Dirk. Stack was not even remotely the same "good" player from his earlier days to when he was with the Mavs. And you know that too.

[icemanfan]

Nash was really good in Dallas during his last three seasons as a Mavs. Not as great as he is as a Suns but still good enough to be considered the #2 guy.

Only problem is the Spurs(Duncan & crew) and Lakers(Shaq, Kobe and crew) were 5 times better than them during that stint.
This. The OP is either completely brain dead OR in denial. Either way this thread is mental retarded level stupid.

P.S. Right now Cuban has the Mavs as the 2nd rightest payroll in the L. That does not happen by NOT having talent. Talent is not the issue. Having a GM who picks the right talent, a coach who can come up with a style that supports his MVP and an owner who has the good sense to stay the **** out of it all; now that is the key.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

they're not even the same situation.

one was a bench player in a 6th man role and the other was a starter at the end of the season who started 41 games

And yet both playered the pretty much the same MPG, and put up similar stats.

Talk about a liberal definition of "good."

That's like saying a guy who gets paid 8 bucks an hour is rich over a guy who gets paid 7.50 an hour.

But wait? One guy works at Lowe's and the other guy works at Home Depot! They are in different situations!

[dawsey6]

So if Beno is not considered "good" then you can't say Stackhouse is "good." Both are about the same in terms of production/quality. Stackhouse had the better career but for a season or two with the Mavs and the season or two with the Kings, Beno is on par with Stackhouse.



Dirk has never had a true second option. Or he has never had a true first option (making him a second option).

He has always player with some talented guys who were at best third options (a la Jason Terry). But in the playoffs, a team needs a couple of guys who are second bananas.

I think you completely missed the point. The point was that a Jerry was a good 3rd or 4th option. In the subsequent season, he put up 13/3/3 in 28 min, and was the 4th option, which is better than just good. That's great. As a matter of fact, he had five other guys averaging 10 or more point per game.

Never had a legit 2nd option? What was Finley? Dirk was Finley's 2nd option before his breakout season in '01. And Finley remained 20/5 player for another few seasons. How is he not a legit 2nd option?

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

P.S. Right now Cuban has the Mavs as the 2nd rightest payroll in the L. That does not happen by NOT having talent. Talent is not the issue. Having a GM who picks the right talent, a coach who can come up with a style that supports his MVP and an owner who has the good sense to stay the **** out of it all; now that is the key.

Exactly. Talent isn't the only thing. Dirk has played with some talented guys. But just like I mentioned. They rarely (if ever) fit together.

[Showtime]

I am not talking about "other options." I am talking about second options on offense. Big difference. And you know that, or at least I hope you would.

First off, what were Nash and Finley if not legit #2 guys? Also, Dirk had a deeper pool of scorers, which is my point. Having 2 or 3 or 4 other guys who can drop 30 any given night is better than having just ONE other all-star.


And what Stack did in the past is irrelevant to the discussion of when he played with Dirk.

No, it isn't, because we are talking about the types of players. Do you think just any 30 something SG could come in a produce as a 4th guy like Stack? Or would you rather have a former all star scoring champ in that role? Look at how Grant Hill is helping PHX and tell me his career prior to that has no bearing on being able to help his team.


Stack was not even remotely the same "good" player from his earlier days to when he was with the Mavs. And you know that too.

IN THE ROLE HE PLAYED, he was. This is what you can't seem to understand.

[6thManOfTheYear]

And yet both playered the pretty much the same MPG, and put up similar stats.

Talk about a liberal definition of "good."

That's like saying a guy who gets paid 8 bucks an hour is rich over a guy who gets paid 7.50 an hour.

But wait? One guy works at Lowe's and the other guy works at Home Depot! They are in different situations!

no that's like one player getting exactly 20 points (and maybe 30 or 40 rarely) every single game vs another players starting the year off having games scoring less than 10 points and having more 30 and 40 point games frequently towards the end of the season and both having the same averages at the end of the season.

[NY-Knicks]

No, it isn't, because we are talking about the types of players. Do you think just any 30 something SG could come in a produce as a 4th guy like Stack? Or would you rather have a former all star scoring champ in that role? Look at how Grant Hill is helping PHX and tell me his career prior to that has no bearing on being able to help his team.



IN THE ROLE HE PLAYED, he was. This is what you can't seem to understand.

what people don't understand is that Jerry Stackhouse was still a good player during his days with the Mavericks. Of course he wasn't the scorer he once was, but he became very comfortable in his role with the Mavericks. He needed to adapt his game in order to win an NBA championship, unfortunately for him this did not happen.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Never had a legit 2nd option? What was Finley? Dirk was Finley's 2nd option before his breakout season in '01. And Finley remained 20/5 player for another few seasons. How is he not a legit 2nd option?

Scoring 20 points does not make one a second banana. Josh Howard pretty much scored 20 a guy for a couple of seasons too. Jason Terry pretty much scored that as well.

It isn't about scoring 20. It is about being counted on to score. It is being counted on to draw attention. So much attention that the defense has to double. And yes there is a difference.

[Wukillabeez78]

I am not talking about "other options." I am talking about second options on offense. Big difference. And you know that, or at least I hope you would.

And what Stack did in the past is irrelevant to the discussion of when he played with Dirk. Stack was not even remotely the same "good" player from his earlier days to when he was with the Mavs. And you know that too.

Dirk had plenty of second options on offense. Finley was actually option number one and it was his team before Dirk came into his own.

You don't want to address the real truth. Dirk is only a good player himself. He's not on the same level as players who are/were truly great are. Greatness takes skill and it takes a certain mindset. Dirk does not possess this mindset. He doesn't have the same mindset truly great players (Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Isiah, Hakeem,etc...) possess. He is not a leader and not a stand up guy. If you hit him he won't hit back, he'll look to the refs for help. If you hit anyone of those guys I mentioned above or even hit one of their teammates they'd get you themselves. That mindset along with their skills is what made them great. Dirk doesn't have this mindset. Statistics don't make you great. Dirk could score 50,000 points in his career and still wouldn't be a great player. He'd be what he is now, a great scorer but not a great player overall. Dirk is a truly gifted player who is very good but not great. He will never win a championship until he is paired with a player who is a true leader and who possesses that mindset required to be great.

[Showtime]

Scoring 20 points does not make one a second banana. Josh Howard pretty much scored 20 a guy for a couple of seasons too. Jason Terry pretty much scored that as well.

It isn't about scoring 20. It is about being counted on to score. It is being counted on to draw attention. So much attention that the defense has to double. And yes there is a difference.
Finley was a money jump shooter and still could penetrate with the mavs. He lost all ability to do that with the spurs but still managed to be of some use there. So why wasn't Finley or Nash legit #2's?

And LMAO at your argument. You say that stats don't determine the type of player, and yet when we talk about the type of player that Dirk is, the response is a post about his stats.

[icemanfan]

Exactly. Talent isn't the only thing. Dirk has played with some talented guys. But just like I mentioned. They rarely (if ever) fit together.
and THAT is exactly the problem right there. The problem is NOT talent. The problem is having an owner who keeps trying to buy a championship by buying talent and throwing them all together and wondering why its not working. You must first have a PLAN. Then you have to have a basketball mind that can put that plan into motion. If Cuban had a regular size ego he would see this. He would hire a very talented GM and get out of the way.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

First off, what were Nash and Finley if not legit #2 guys? Also, Dirk had a deeper pool of scorers, which is my point. Having 2 or 3 or 4 other guys who can drop 30 any given night is better than having just ONE other all-star.

History proves otherwise. Most NBA teams that have won champuionships have had a superstar combined with a second banana. A "deep" team full of 3rd or 4th option guys rarely win championships.


No, it isn't, because we are talking about the types of players. Do you think just any 30 something SG could come in a produce as a 4th guy like Stack? Or would you rather have a former all star scoring champ in that role? Look at how Grant Hill is helping PHX and tell me his career prior to that has no bearing on being able to help his team.

I think there are a lot of guys who could put up 14/3/2 on 40% shooting in 30 MPG. You may not agree.


Dirk had plenty of second options on offense. Finley was actually option number one and it was his team before Dirk came into his own.

You don't want to address the real truth. Dirk is only a good player himself. He's not on the same level as players who are/were truly great are. Greatness takes skill and it takes a certain mindset. Dirk does not possess this mindset. He doesn't have the same mindset truly great players (Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Shaq, Isiah, Hakeem,etc...) possess. He is not a leader and not a stand up guy. If you hit him he won't hit back, he'll look to the refs for help. If you hit anyone of those guys I mentioned above or even hit one of their teammates they'd get you themselves. That mindset along with their skills is what made them great. Dirk doesn't have this mindset. Statistics don't make you great. Dirk could score 50,000 points in his career and still wouldn't be a great player. He'd be what he is now, a great scorer but not a great player overall. Dirk is a truly gifted player who is very good but not great. He will never win a championship until he is paired with a player who is a true leader and who possesses that mindset required to be great.

And even with all his flaws, Dirk is still a top 50 player all time. That is amazing that someone with all his problems can be be better than 70-80& of ever NBA player in the history of the game.

[icemanfan]

Exactly. Talent isn't the only thing. Dirk has played with some talented guys. But just like I mentioned. They rarely (if ever) fit together.
I want to clear up one thing. I think I know what your trying to say here. With all the different style of players (very talented ones) Dirk has had to try to change his style to fit the people around him. What he needs is a team built around his skill set so he can play basketball in his own natural style and have those around him compliment that style. If this is what you mean then that is a valid point. It is not his fault but rather the GM's and the owner's. He has had tons of talent around him though.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Finley was a money jump shooter and still could penetrate with the mavs. He lost all ability to do that with the spurs but still managed to be of some use there. So why wasn't Finley or Nash legit #2's?

Because he couldn't still penetrate with the Mavs. Of course you think all of us are homers. But Finley's handles is what hounded the team for a long time. They were always looking for a **penetrating** two guard. Even when Finley was here. Finley could still shoot and score. But his penetration? Nope.

As for Nash... he could have been Dirk's second option. But he always wore down. That was the rerason why Cuban let him go. And Nelson hated him for it. Every year, Nash would be worn out by the time the playoffs rolled around. He never "worked out" and got in shape with the Mavs. Sure, he and Dirk went to gym. But Nash never got in great shape. That came when he wanted to stick it to Cuban. (That is what Nash said.) And he did.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:roll: Is the OP so young that he can't remember the Mavs trio of Dirk, Finley and Nash being called a big 3? Nash was an all-star before Phoenix and already a good playmaker and a damn good shooter with Dallas, then you had Dirk who gave them their legit 1st option and a matchup nightmare and Finley gave them a second scoring option who average around 20 ppg, could shoot, get to the basket, rebound well for a guard and make plays.

Then his team in 2004 was stacked. Steve Nash, Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker and Michael Finley!

And then from 2005-2007, he had another talented cast, Josh Howard was a good number 2 guy who was an all-star, a near 20 ppg scorer and a solid defender/rebounder as well Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse and Devin Harris who combined gave them more than enough players who could go off on any night.

Now, he had Kidd, who was still very good at what he did, Caron Butler, Shawn Marion and Jason Terry.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

I want to clear up one thing. I think I know what your trying to say here. With all the different style of players (very talented ones) Dirk has had to try to change his style to fit the people around him. What he needs is a team built around his skill set so he can play basketball in his own natural style and have those around him compliment that style. If this is what you mean then that is a valid point. It is not his fault but rather the GM's and the owner's. He has had tons of talent around him though.

Dirk is a unique talent. One that is very hard to build around. VERY HARD. Because of it you have to like you said build around him from his strengths/weaknesses.

Since Dirk's strength is shooting and pulling bigs out on the perimeter, the team needs a penetrating swing man or a post presence center.

(Dirk has never had either one. Of course some will say Finley but ask any Mav fan and they will say Fin was never a slasher.)

[LJJ]

Dirk is a unique talent. One that is very hard to build around. VERY HARD. Because of it you have to like you said build around him from his strengths/weaknesses.

Since Dirk's strength is shooting and pulling bigs out on the perimeter, the team needs a penetrating swing man or a post presence center.

(Dirk has never had either one. Of course some will say Finley but ask any Mav fan and they will say Fin was never a slasher.)

I like how you said "penetrating swing man" to circumvent Devin Harris who is a pure slasher.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

No, Devin Harris was a major reason why they made the Finals. I wasn't trying to circumvent him in any way.. If only Harris could have stayed healthy. That was why he was traded. He was constantly hurt. (Like NJ fans are seeing lately.)

He was healthy in 2005-2005. Every other year he was injured. And it affected morale big time.

(And Roddy was drafted to hopefully bring that penetration back. Of course Carlisle doesn't play him.....)

[Showtime]

I want to clear up one thing. I think I know what your trying to say here. With all the different style of players (very talented ones) Dirk has had to try to change his style to fit the people around him. What he needs is a team built around his skill set so he can play basketball in his own natural style and have those around him compliment that style. If this is what you mean then that is a valid point. It is not his fault but rather the GM's and the owner's. He has had tons of talent around him though.
That's the problem. You can't build around Dirk. Dirk must be the complimentary star to the #1 guy, like Lebron or Wade.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

That's the problem. You can't build around Dirk. Dirk must be the complimentary star to the #1 guy, like Lebron or Wade.

Well sign me up! I would love the Mavs to get Wade or LeBron to be option 1 with Dirk as the second banana.

So tell me... how can the Mavs pull that off?

[ShaqAttack3234]

That's the problem. You can't build around Dirk. Dirk must be the complimentary star to the #1 guy, like Lebron or Wade.

I disagree, he did get all the way to the finals in the West and his team had a 2-0 lead. I think you can build around him. Hell, if not for his injury in 2003, who knows what would have happened in that WCF series?

[D-Rose]

Well sign me up! I would love the Mavs to get Wade or LeBron to be option 1 with Dirk as the second banana.

So tell me... how can the Mavs pull that off?
Butler + Marion + Beuobois + 1st rounder for Wade in a S&T

[Poodle]

but what about team accomplishments and defensive ability?
it's not that I don't respect your opinion, I'd like to know why you would pick Nash over Kidd.


i think team accomplishments is about being in fortunate circumstances for the most part. its wrong to me how much that is used to measure players here when we're generally talking in the context of talent. i'm not saying there isn't some correlation there in some cases with some superstars being so good they carry their team all the way, but there are a hell of a lot of good/great players that never were on a good team also, and its not really their fault.

as for defense, kidd is not spectacular, albeit very solid and can't get mismatched so much like nash based on size. but really, watch a sun's game. how often is nash getting abused? if the man he's guarding does it once, two times, are they able to abuse him all game? over and over again on each and eve3ry play, and every other game they play? of course not, the coach makes adjustments, and every player in this league if you make them shoot jumpers, will have on and off games. its more if their jumper is falling from what i see than always trying to attribute great defense for why someone is missing their shots, or poor defense for why they make them.

even using kobe vs westbrook as an example, westbrook could tear kobe apart on a westbrook hot one. no matter how good kkobe's defense is. on the other hand westbrook on a bad day where he isn't hitting, kobe can look like he's westbrooks glove. its not like kobe will completely shut him down every time, at least i sure don't believe that, because he's supposedly such a good defender.

again see Artest. no matter what lakers fans say to try and justify him, there is no way they could tell me his defense makes up for his other liabilities this year. if he comes up with a steal in game 7 of the championships in the final minute that wins it then sure. otherwise, 3-4 steals every other game, and keeping his body in front of his man better, isn't worth what he lacks in terms of the every play down the floor. not to mention there are 5 players who can score, and its not like there are 5 artests playing D, where many times he's completely out of the picture. if its only about playing 1 team where he matches up to their superstar to shut him down, then maybe he's worth it if you sweat that team THAT much, which are more or less very specific circumstances.

tldr i'd pick nash because he does it on almost every play down the floor. his d shortcomings are exposed way less frequently than a lot of his critics portray imo. i could go further into the extremely clutch shooting, backbreaker baskets, etc. but i've already rambled long enough.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Butler + Marion + Beuobois + 1st rounder for Wade in a S&T

Doubt Miami would go for that.

[Kblaze8855]

At one point Dirk was on a team that featured the 2 players who won the next 3 MVPS and 3 additional players who were on the same level they were as all stars. He had 5 all stars. Literally. The least respected of which ended up the second leading playoff scorer on the 06 champs and the second worst was putting up 19/5/3 on 44 with 41% from 3 which is insane for your 4-5th best player. By comparisons sake Ray Allen in 08 put up 17/4/3 on 45 % and 40% from 3. Not saying Finley was better....just clearly a good player.

Nash didnt learn basketball at 30. He was a star there. Jamison was a 25/8 player before he came to dallas and a 2 time all star after Dallas. Walker was a 3 time all star and while he had issues he proved he could win it all as a key player. Finley was aging but still solid.

Tim Duncan won at least 2 of his rings with less talented teams than Dirk has right now. Really...he won all 4 of them with less talented teams. But 99 and 03 were miles worse. The current Mavs would have 5 of the 7 best players on the floor vs the 03 Spurs. Manu was putting up like 7ppg on 42% shooting in the playoffs then and Parker was a few years from being better than Terry is now. Drob was like 38. Jackson was a role player....and even now hes not as good as Butler.

The 99, 03, and 5 Spurs...none of them are even arguable to me far as being more talented than many of Dirks teams. By 07 Parker and Manu had pulled it all together but still....

We wipe out Dirk and Duncan...

Manu
Parker
Bowen
Barry
Devin Brown
Malik Rose
Rasho
Massenberg
Horry who didnt show up till game 5 of the finals

vs

Butler
Kidd
Terry
Marion
Stevenson
Haywood
Dampier
barea
French Kid whos name I wont try to spell


We really gonna pretend the Spurs were more talented?

Dirk has had title winning talent many times in his career.

[Replay32]

:roll: Is the OP so young that he can't remember the Mavs trio of Dirk, Finley and Nash being called a big 3? Nash was an all-star before Phoenix and already a good playmaker and a damn good shooter with Dallas, then you had Dirk who gave them their legit 1st option and a matchup nightmare and Finley gave them a second scoring option who average around 20 ppg, could shoot, get to the basket, rebound well for a guard and make plays.

Then his team in 2004 was stacked. Steve Nash, Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker and Michael Finley!

And then from 2005-2007, he had another talented cast, Josh Howard was a good number 2 guy who was an all-star, a near 20 ppg scorer and a solid defender/rebounder as well Jason Terry, Jerry Stackhouse and Devin Harris who combined gave them more than enough players who could go off on any night.

Now, he had Kidd, who was still very good at what he did, Caron Butler, Shawn Marion and Jason Terry.

Yeah, but dirk has never played on a team with a good frontline. Dirk is not a power player. He's a 7 foot SF type. Basketball has always been a big man's game and Dirk has never had that. There is a reason Shaq, and Duncan have dominated this decade and their teams have won the majority of titles. Bottomline is you need good perimeters player and a good fronline to win in the NBA and Dirk has played with great perimeter players but has never played with a powerful frontline.

This falls on Cuban though. He should have been recognized this and done something about it.

[NBASTATMAN]

Who cares? Dirk is supposed to be a Wade, Bron, or Melo.

Dirk is a choker. Darn white guys...


He did play with Nash.. But since has not played with a great player.. Nash didn't play great till he left the MAVS..

[1~Gibson~1]

Jason Kidd
Jason Terry
Josh Howard
Caron Butler
Shawn Marion

there's 5

[icemanfan]

He did play with Nash.. But since has not played with a great player.. Nash didn't play great till he left the MAVS..
Really? The Suns gave him that huge contract because they had a crystal ball and could see the future? PLEASE!

[godofgods]

If you surround Dirk with prime Bird at SF, prime Jordan at SG, prime Magic at PG and prime Olajuwon at Center, Mavs still wouldn't win the championship as long as David Stern is the commish.

[Nero Tulip]

Dirk has had some pretty good players with him, and has been pretty successful. Others (Duncan, Kobe, Garnet) had great players with them, and have had great success.

It's hard to argue that a Dirk led team can't win a championship. One year they beat all the best teams, and were a couple free throws away from winning the finals. Thinking they can't win is just moronic.

[magnax1]

Jason Terry, Kidd, Nash, Finley, Walker, Jamison, Stackhouse, Van Exel, Caron Butler, Shawn Bradley (jk)

[Duranthebest]

:violin:
I hear all this noise about how Dirks teams have been so deep over the years, but have they really?

PROVE IT. Name a single good player Dirk has played with during his career in Dallas. Don't say Nash because we all know Nash wasn't good in Dallas and didn't actually start trying until he got his own team.

For all the crap people talk about Dirk going out in the first round as a high seed a few times, they fail to realize Dirk has never had any help. His best player was pretty much Josh Howard WHO WAS A SECOND ROUND PICK and an overall awful person and teammate.

Get Dirk a Manu and Parker. Get Dirk a Ray Allen and Paul Pierce. Get Dirk a Gasol and Odom. Everyone talks about how great LeBron is but fail to realize he hasn't won anything, but he'll probably win a ring this year. Why? Because they brought Jamison over and he finally got some help!

Nobody can do it by themselves. The funny thing is, DIRK ALMOST DID yet all he does is get crapped on.

Next time you want to bash Dirk, ask yourself, 'who has he really played with?' and I bet you'll change your mind and start to appreciate him.

Last time I checked Pierce was the Finals MVP when the Celtics won the title. Pierce was/is the #1 guy of the big 3. If anything, you mean give Dirk Allen and Garnett.

[ginobli2311]

:violin:

Last time I checked Pierce was the Finals MVP when the Celtics won the title. Pierce was/is the #1 guy of the big 3. If anything, you mean give Dirk Allen and Garnett.

Pierce was the best player in the 08 NBA Finals....but KG was clearly their best and most important player throughout the playoffs. If you don't understand that then you clearly don't know basketball.

[ginobli2311]

Jason Kidd
Jason Terry
Josh Howard
Caron Butler
Shawn Marion

there's 5


Wow. I thought people on NBA message boards would not misunderstand the game so badly. Lets go through these guys one by one:

Kidd - Great player. Hall of fame player. Unfortunately....the Mavs got him back when he was way out of his prime and is nothing more than a jump shooting point guard that can't defend other guards, can't create, and can't get to the rim.

Jason Terry - Nothing more than a role player that shoots a decent percentage on wide open looks. He can't get to the rim and is one of the worst perimeter defenders in the league over the last 5 yeras.

Josh Howard - Not a bad player for the first half of games. But he's not a reliable shooter/scorer and he's one of the five worst players in the 2nd half of games. Also a head case than can't be relied on at all in the playoffs. Check the Hornets series from 2 years ago.

Butler - I really like Butler. I'll give this some more time before I make a decision. I fully believe that Butler can be good enough to be the 2nd banana on a championship team with Dirk. But "CAN" is a long way from will. He played pretty awful against the Spurs and it was a matchup he should have owned.

Marion - A shell of his former self. He's not very athletic anymore....but he's still a good player. The problem is that the Mavs need a guy like Anthony Parker that his Marion's size but can still knock down shots. You don't have to guard Marion on offense....so it's tough to play with him in the half court....which is what the entire playoffs are based on. This is the reason he didn't play much and just another reason why the Suns never won anything.

Look at the players you mentioned. Are you honestly going to compare those guys....most of which are out of their primes....to 2nd banana guys of championship teams like Kobe (the shaq years), Gasol, Parker, Ginoblili, Pierce, Allen, Shaq (the heat ring)......I mean come on. Why is it so hard to understand that you need multiple hall of fame caliber players to win titles in the NBA.

Now, for those of you who keep mentioning Nash. I truly believe Nash and Dirk could have won a title together. The problem? They played Nellie ball....as style that has absolutely no chance to win in the playoffs. During the Nash years, they didn't even have a center better than Bradley/Laettner/Calvin Booth. Also, Nash is just so limited defensively compared to any other great player that it really hurts your chances of winning in the playoffs. The Mavs needed to surround Dirk and Nash with good shooters with size than can defend. They needed a center that could provide some toughness, protect the rim, and rebound. Dirk has never had any of that....and that stuff....is exactly what you need to win in the playoffs.

This is not difficult people. Not at all. You don't win in the playoffs with guys like jason terry....you win in the playoffs with guys like derek fisher. People on this board should know better.

[1~Gibson~1]

Wow. I thought people on NBA message boards would not misunderstand the game so badly. Lets go through these guys one by one:OK, but first lets clear something up. You said "legit GOOD players". Not great, not elite, but good....GOOD.


Kidd - Great player. Hall of fame player. Unfortunately....the Mavs got him back when he was way out of his prime and is nothing more than a jump shooting point guard that can't defend other guards, can't create, and can't get to the rim.averages - 10ppg, 9apg, 6rpg. i would classify that as "good" under any circumstances. of course, he isnt as good as the JKidd of old, but he's still a "good" player in present day.


Jason Terry - Nothing more than a role player that shoots a decent percentage on wide open looks. He can't get to the rim and is one of the worst perimeter defenders in the league over the last 5 yeras.16 ppg and 4apg off the bench...and isnt he the reigning 6th man of the year?

how is that not "good"?


Josh Howard - Not a bad player for the first half of games. But he's not a reliable shooter/scorer and he's one of the five worst players in the 2nd half of games. Also a head case than can't be relied on at all in the playoffs. Check the Hornets series from 2 years ago.15+ppg, 5+rpg

that isnt "good" to you?


Butler - I really like Butler. I'll give this some more time before I make a decision. I fully believe that Butler can be good enough to be the 2nd banana on a championship team with Dirk. But "CAN" is a long way from will. He played pretty awful against the Spurs and it was a matchup he should have owned.same as Howard basically...


Marion - A shell of his former self. He's not very athletic anymore....but he's still a good player. The problem is that the Mavs need a guy like Anthony Parker that his Marion's size but can still knock down shots. You don't have to guard Marion on offense....so it's tough to play with him in the half court....which is what the entire playoffs are based on. This is the reason he didn't play much and just another reason why the Suns never won anything.shell of him former self but still averages 12 point, 6 rebounds and some good defense. what is not "good" about that?


Look at the players you mentioned. Are you honestly going to compare those guys....most of which are out of their primes....to 2nd banana guys of championship teams like Kobe (the shaq years), Gasol, Parker, Ginoblili, Pierce, Allen, Shaq (the heat ring)......I mean come on. Why is it so hard to understand that you need multiple hall of fame caliber players to win titles in the NBA.I wasnt comparing anyone to no one. You wanted some names; i gave you names.


This is not difficult people. Not at all. You don't win in the playoffs with guys like jason terry....you win in the playoffs with guys like derek fisher. People on this board should know better.If Dallas wouldnt have choked a few years back you could have actually.

[mrhoopfan]

Played with a PRIME Finley, Nasj, Jamison, Walker. Also played with a pretty good Van Exel

[ginobli2311]

OK, but first lets clear something up. You said "legit GOOD players". Not great, not elite, but good....GOOD.

averages - 10ppg, 9apg, 6rpg. i would classify that as "good" under any circumstances. of course, he isnt as good as the JKidd of old, but he's still a "good" player in present day.

16 ppg and 4apg off the bench...and isnt he the reigning 6th man of the year?

how is that not "good"?

15+ppg, 5+rpg

that isnt "good" to you?

same as Howard basically...

shell of him former self but still averages 12 point, 6 rebounds and some good defense. what is not "good" about that?

I wasnt comparing anyone to no one. You wanted some names; i gave you names.

If Dallas wouldnt have choked a few years back you could have actually.

I didn't create the thread. But you are right. Those are good players. Not great players....and you win with great/elite players in the playoffs.

You also win by playing defense and having a great coach. Guys like Finley and Nash were really good....but no team in the last 30 years in the NBA has ever won playing a fast paced run and gun "nellie ball" style. That is why you need a point guard that isn't huge liability on defense. You build a team for playoff success with defense around your star or preferably stars.

Dallas has never surrounded Dirk with what he needed. He needed guys like Prince and Ben Wallace or Alonzo Mourning or Paul Pierce. He got guys like Dampier/Stackhouse/Terry/Shawn Bradley/Nash/Finley.....those guys individually are fine, but you can't have a team of all offensive players. It does not work. Is terry a pretty good player? Yes...of course. But he's not a guy you want to go to battle with in a tough playoff series. He can't defend, he can't get to the rim, and he can't create his own shot. Same thing can be said for an old Jason Kidd.

[mrhoopfan]

Dirk has played with some very good players. Who is the best player Lebron has played with?

[ILLsmak]

Give Dirk a real C and he'd be fine. It's like this, people might argue as to why Dirk won if he ended up on a team with another great player... but other than the obvious guys like... Bron, Wade, Dwight, Melo... etc etc. If he got that ring, he would more than likely be the finals MVP.

And everyone who says he had talent... then why didn't the guys produce? I don't understand that argument. I thought he had talent, too, but I think the end result should make you say, "Man, I was wrong about their talent." instead of "Man, Dirk had all the talent and still choked." Because he DIDN'T CHOKE. Compare his series to every other player you call a superstar and few did better.

His series even compares favorably to Wade's who everyone said OMG WADE HAD NO HELP HE'S SUCH A BALLER THOUGH.

-Smak

[ginobli2311]

Dirk has played with some very good players. Who is the best player Lebron has played with?

Pretty sure Lebron hasn't won a title yet. Also...Lebron is so much better than Dirk. Comparing the two is pointless. If Lebron wins it this year it will be the second time in the last 30 years that the NBA Champion was led by 1 star without multiple hall of fame caliber players. Hakeem did it in 94 with the Rockets. I don't count the 04 Pistons because it was true collective effort and they were a perfectly built team for playoff success.

However, you need to be able to play really tough defense to win it all....and the Cavs can do that. While I don't think the Cavs have done a very good job surrounding Lebron with the right team. At least they can defend and Lebron has some shooters around him.

DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS. It's the truth.....but nobody ever wants to talk about it.

[Kblaze8855]

And everyone who says he had talent... then why didn't the guys produce? I don't understand that argument. I thought he had talent, too, but I think the end result should make you say, "Man, I was wrong about their talent."


So talented teams that dont win shouldnt be considered talented? What would you call a team with the next 2 MVPs and 3 additional all stars if not talented?

[icemanfan]

So talented teams that dont win shouldnt be considered talented? What would you call a team with the next 2 MVPs and 3 additional all stars if not talented?
what the OP and this fool mean is "since Dirk did not win with this group of all stars , future HOF'ers and league MVP's you can not say that when they played with Dirk, at that very moment, they were anything more than scubs". What a tractor trailer load of horse shit. There are at least three places here where this fool has said NASH was "not that good of a player when he played in Dallas". The worst part is the damn idiot believes this shit. He believes that the Suns spent a ton of money prying him away from Dallas only to "get lucky" and have Nash the league MVP magicly appear that very year and the next. If Peter Holt spent like Cuban Tim Duncan would have at least two more rings. There is a lot of things one can say about Dirk in Dallas. Never having talented players around him is NOT one of them.

[Niquesports]

I didn't create the thread. But you are right. Those are good players. Not great players....and you win with great/elite players in the playoffs.

You also win by playing defense and having a great coach. Guys like Finley and Nash were really good....but no team in the last 30 years in the NBA has ever won playing a fast paced run and gun "nellie ball" style. That is why you need a point guard that isn't huge liability on defense. You build a team for playoff success with defense around your star or preferably stars.

Dallas has never surrounded Dirk with what he needed. He needed guys like Prince and Ben Wallace or Alonzo Mourning or Paul Pierce. He got guys like Dampier/Stackhouse/Terry/Shawn Bradley/Nash/Finley.....those guys individually are fine, but you can't have a team of all offensive players. It does not work. Is terry a pretty good player? Yes...of course. But he's not a guy you want to go to battle with in a tough playoff series. He can't defend, he can't get to the rim, and he can't create his own shot. Same thing can be said for an old Jason Kidd.


What I dont understand is that this thread has gone on for a week. You have yet to place any blame on Dirk. Cuban has done more than 95% of other owners to develop a Cahmpionship team built around Dirk . Brought in new players, new coaches has one of if not the best facilty in all of sports. They are over the cap and unlike the Knicks most of the players aren't over paid.
YOu say Dirks support cast cant win in the playoffs yet that same support cast you knock help get the Mavs to the finals and off my head at least 2 WCF not to mention 10 straight years of 50 win seasons only 3 other teams have ever done that. Every year the Mavs are ranked a top 5 team in the league in the begining of the season. This isn't because Dirk is so Great its because most feel that the Mavs are a deep talented team. Mostly everyone had the Mavs winning the series not because Dirk is the Best player in the league and can carry scrubs to the promise but because most feel the Mavs have the talent to win. Dirk isn't a top elite player all of the Mavs sucess has been helped by the support players you are knocking just as much as Dirk contibuted.

I understand you are trying to defend Dirk from his critics but dont go so far as to blame all the fault at his teammates and coaches without first taking a look at Dirk. You say the Mavs need a defender of the rim with toughness. Dirk is 7 Ft and the team leader why doesnt he step up and be that player.You say Kidd D is not the same well neither is Dirk's. Dirk gets big numbers but what about what his team needs a big rebounder, a guy that blocks shots and plays good help D in the paint. A vocal leader in the locker room and during timeouts. Be that player that has a look of a champion in his eyes not the look of a deer in headlights when the game gets physical and tight. These are the things a MVp of a team does to win championships if Dirk did these things his teammates would be championship quality players .

Sure his cast isnt the Greatest of All TIme but neither Dirk. Blameing the teammates for there short commings and not looking at Dirk for his shows a sign of bias. You see if Dirk was doing what he was supposed to do you wouldn't have to defend him and look so silly doing so.

[ILLsmak]

So talented teams that dont win shouldnt be considered talented? What would you call a team with the next 2 MVPs and 3 additional all stars if not talented?

As said before, not many teams actually do win. If talent doesn't translate to wins, what is it worth? Who is to say that the Mavs with all of those players can't be a good unit, but it's obvious by the way they lost in the playoffs that we were wrong about their talent, right? Either that or you can say they faced a Spurs team that was just as if not more talented and playing with superior chemistry.

Again, I think you are mistaking talent for potential. Talent is the ability to succeed, right? So why didn't it? Dirk's fault?





What I dont understand is that this thread has gone on for a week. You have yet to place any blame on Dirk. Cuban has done more than 95% of other owners to develop a Cahmpionship team built around Dirk . Brought in new players, new coaches has one of if not the best facilty in all of sports. They are over the cap and unlike the Knicks most of the players aren't over paid.
YOu say Dirks support cast cant win in the playoffs yet that same support cast you knock help get the Mavs to the finals and off my head at least 2 WCF not to mention 10 straight years of 50 win seasons only 3 other teams have ever done that. Every year the Mavs are ranked a top 5 team in the league in the begining of the season. This isn't because Dirk is so Great its because most feel that the Mavs are a deep talented team. Mostly everyone had the Mavs winning the series not because Dirk is the Best player in the league and can carry scrubs to the promise but because most feel the Mavs have the talent to win. Dirk isn't a top elite player all of the Mavs sucess has been helped by the support players you are knocking just as much as Dirk contibuted.

I understand you are trying to defend Dirk from his critics but dont go so far as to blame all the fault at his teammates and coaches without first taking a look at Dirk. You say the Mavs need a defender of the rim with toughness. Dirk is 7 Ft and the team leader why doesnt he step up and be that player.You say Kidd D is not the same well neither is Dirk's. Dirk gets big numbers but what about what his team needs a big rebounder, a guy that blocks shots and plays good help D in the paint. A vocal leader in the locker room and during timeouts. Be that player that has a look of a champion in his eyes not the look of a deer in headlights when the game gets physical and tight. These are the things a MVp of a team does to win championships if Dirk did these things his teammates would be championship quality players .

Sure his cast isnt the Greatest of All TIme but neither Dirk. Blameing the teammates for there short commings and not looking at Dirk for his shows a sign of bias. You see if Dirk was doing what he was supposed to do you wouldn't have to defend him and look so silly doing so.


it's obviously Dirk's fault, too, because he's on the team. lol. But the reason people aren't presenting an argument against Dirk when they bring up the more logical 'team underachievement' is because people here have said everything you could possibly say about Dirk. Few have defended him; we'd like both sides. Think of it as a defense attorney and a prosecution.

-Smak

[Rob123]

This is my point. None of these guys are good and I feel bad for anyone who thinks they are. lol@all star guard Michael Finley.

you must be brain dead.

[Kblaze8855]

As said before, not many teams actually do win. If talent doesn't translate to wins, what is it worth? Who is to say that the Mavs with all of those players can't be a good unit, but it's obvious by the way they lost in the playoffs that we were wrong about their talent, right?

If you dont think a team with 5 all stars is talented win or lose I dont know what to tell you.


Either that or you can say they faced a Spurs team that was just as if not more talented and playing with superior chemistry.


Chemistry yes...talent? Most of Duncans title teams didnt have much at all.


Again, I think you are mistaking talent for potential. Talent is the ability to succeed, right? So why didn't it? Dirk's fault?

Talent is ability to play basketball. If you are gonna pretend guys who dont win arent talented...how is Dirk talented exactly? If he doesnt succeed....isnt he untalented by your reasoning? Hes not winning and his teammates losing. They all lose. If losing as a unit makes all stars individually untalented...isnt Dirk untalented as well?

Or are we going to show some common sense and judge his talent by the skills hes displayed?

If so...why not apply that common sense to the rest of them?

[dough]

This. The OP is either completely brain dead OR in denial. Either way this thread is mental retarded level stupid.

P.S. Right now Cuban has the Mavs as the 2nd rightest payroll in the L. That does not happen by NOT having talent. Talent is not the issue. Having a GM who picks the right talent, a coach who can come up with a style that supports his MVP and an owner who has the good sense to stay the **** out of it all; now that is the key.

It's a sockaccount by some ish poster who used this account to post an angered and idiotic thread.

[ILLsmak]

If you dont think a team with 5 all stars is talented win or lose I dont know what to tell you.



Chemistry yes...talent? Most of Duncans title teams didnt have much at all.



Talent is ability to play basketball. If you are gonna pretend guys who dont win arent talented...how is Dirk talented exactly? If he doesnt succeed....isnt he untalented by your reasoning? Hes not winning and his teammates losing. They all lose. If losing as a unit makes all stars individually untalented...isnt Dirk untalented as well?

Or are we going to show some common sense and judge his talent by the skills hes displayed?

If so...why not apply that common sense to the rest of them?

If these guys could play ball, why did they all fold? You could say that it was a bad series... which is possible, but that would mean that noone can really make an assumption about Dirk from that.

The difference is that Dirk is getting you 30 and consistently is the only player to show up. Just because the other guys CAN get 20 or COULD get 10 rebounds and dominate the paint... doesn't matter. They didn't.

And, as I've said before, talent matters a lot at the top and the bottom. At the bottom, you need role players who do what they do REALLY well and at the top you need stars. I'm not going to debate about the past, as that has been covered, I want to talk about this year and this series specifically.

Do you blame that on Dirk? If you do, then you are unreasonable. Dirk made it to the Finals, though, he's not a 'loser.' That's no small feat, either.

And lastly, Duncan almost always had good teams. lol. He started out on a 60 win team and they've continued to build around him with great pieces. To say they are untalented is unbelievable. It makes me think you are trying to hype Duncan and insult Dirk.

What happened to Dirk could happen to any player. If he produces and gives more than his average on good percentages... hitting shot after shot to keep his team in the game... how can you blame him? Look at everyone else's stats and percentages.

-Smak

[ginobli2311]

What I dont understand is that this thread has gone on for a week. You have yet to place any blame on Dirk. Cuban has done more than 95% of other owners to develop a Cahmpionship team built around Dirk . Brought in new players, new coaches has one of if not the best facilty in all of sports. They are over the cap and unlike the Knicks most of the players aren't over paid.
YOu say Dirks support cast cant win in the playoffs yet that same support cast you knock help get the Mavs to the finals and off my head at least 2 WCF not to mention 10 straight years of 50 win seasons only 3 other teams have ever done that. Every year the Mavs are ranked a top 5 team in the league in the begining of the season. This isn't because Dirk is so Great its because most feel that the Mavs are a deep talented team. Mostly everyone had the Mavs winning the series not because Dirk is the Best player in the league and can carry scrubs to the promise but because most feel the Mavs have the talent to win. Dirk isn't a top elite player all of the Mavs sucess has been helped by the support players you are knocking just as much as Dirk contibuted.

I understand you are trying to defend Dirk from his critics but dont go so far as to blame all the fault at his teammates and coaches without first taking a look at Dirk. You say the Mavs need a defender of the rim with toughness. Dirk is 7 Ft and the team leader why doesnt he step up and be that player.You say Kidd D is not the same well neither is Dirk's. Dirk gets big numbers but what about what his team needs a big rebounder, a guy that blocks shots and plays good help D in the paint. A vocal leader in the locker room and during timeouts. Be that player that has a look of a champion in his eyes not the look of a deer in headlights when the game gets physical and tight. These are the things a MVp of a team does to win championships if Dirk did these things his teammates would be championship quality players .

Sure his cast isnt the Greatest of All TIme but neither Dirk. Blameing the teammates for there short commings and not looking at Dirk for his shows a sign of bias. You see if Dirk was doing what he was supposed to do you wouldn't have to defend him and look so silly doing so.


Ok. Here is the thing. The supporting cast was good...not great. Yes....they had some talent....but it wasn't the right kind of talent or player surrounding Dirk. No...I'm not saying Dirk isn't without blame. But a couple bad playoff series can't define a career. Otherwise...Kobe would be labeled a loser and choker based on his finals performances in 04 and 08...and his performance against the Suns in game 7. Dirk has his faults.....but this thread is about whether or not he's had the same chance to win as the other great players of the last decade....and he just flat out has not.

No other player in the last 30 years has carried a team to a title without a legit 2nd banana and a great coach other than Hakeem in 1994. NO OTHER PLAYER dude. MJ had Pippen. Shaq had Kobe. Wade had Shaq. Come on now. Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that you would rather have nash/finley over fish/kobe or harris/howard over parker/manu. Avery Johnson over Phil Jackson and Poppovich. Come on man. Nobody on here is saying that Dirk is the best player ever.....but to come on here and say Dirk is the reason the Mavs have not won a title is not fair at all.

Was it Kobe's fault that he coudlnt get out of the first round before Gasol came? Yes....as the best player he gets some blame....but the reality of it is that he needed more help to win in the playoffs. He needed the right team around him....and he got that when Fisher and Gasol came.

Dirk has never had that. You win with defense, great players, and great coaching in the playoffs. Dirk has never played for a great coach and his teams have never been even remotely solid on defense. Why? Well you can blame Dirk...which is grossly inaccurate. Or you can realize that he needed a good center to protect the rim, a guard that wasn't incapable of stopping anyone (harris was this guard) but they panicked and let him go, a shooting guard capable of guarding and creating his own shot, and a coach capable of not getting owned by the likes of Jackson and Pop. Those things never happened. That is all I'm saying.

Also, talent is one thing...winning is another. Is Jason Terry a more talented basketball player than Bruce Bowen was. Of course. But I would take Bruce Bowen on my team ten times before I take Jason Terry. One player does what is needed to win....the other does not. It is that simple mate.....and that is the story of the last decade for the Mavs. A bunch of regular season players putting up elevated stats that disappear during the playoffs. Funny how Dirk's numbers go way up in the playoffs. Why? Because he's a great player that has risen to big moments time and time again. You think the Lakers win all three titles without Horry and Fisher making huge shots? NO...THEY DON"T. You need help....even if you have the 2 best players in the league on your team....you need help.

Such a ****ing double standard....its getting so old.

[Showtime]

So let me get this straight: if a team loses in the playoffs because they got outplayed, then they aren't talented? Then I guess there is only one talented team in the game: the eventual champions. Every other player on every team is not talented, because their talent didn't result in victory. Great logic there you moron.

[guy]

Nash, Finley, Jamison, Howard, Terry, Kidd, Butler.

[STATDunksOn]

Playing with over 5 all-stars in your life....No good players at all. All flukes right? :oldlol:

Dirk is clutch, but not clutch enough.

[6thManOfTheYear]

5 rebounds in an elimination game for a star power forward is poor no matter how you shake a stick at it.

[creepingdeath]

Ok. Here is the thing. The supporting cast was good...not great. Yes....they had some talent....but it wasn't the right kind of talent or player surrounding Dirk. No...I'm not saying Dirk isn't without blame. But a couple bad playoff series can't define a career. Otherwise...Kobe would be labeled a loser and choker based on his finals performances in 04 and 08...and his performance against the Suns in game 7. Dirk has his faults.....but this thread is about whether or not he's had the same chance to win as the other great players of the last decade....and he just flat out has not.

No other player in the last 30 years has carried a team to a title without a legit 2nd banana and a great coach other than Hakeem in 1994. NO OTHER PLAYER dude. MJ had Pippen. Shaq had Kobe. Wade had Shaq. Come on now. Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that you would rather have nash/finley over fish/kobe or harris/howard over parker/manu. Avery Johnson over Phil Jackson and Poppovich. Come on man. Nobody on here is saying that Dirk is the best player ever.....but to come on here and say Dirk is the reason the Mavs have not won a title is not fair at all.

Was it Kobe's fault that he coudlnt get out of the first round before Gasol came? Yes....as the best player he gets some blame....but the reality of it is that he needed more help to win in the playoffs. He needed the right team around him....and he got that when Fisher and Gasol came.

Dirk has never had that. You win with defense, great players, and great coaching in the playoffs. Dirk has never played for a great coach and his teams have never been even remotely solid on defense. Why? Well you can blame Dirk...which is grossly inaccurate. Or you can realize that he needed a good center to protect the rim, a guard that wasn't incapable of stopping anyone (harris was this guard) but they panicked and let him go, a shooting guard capable of guarding and creating his own shot, and a coach capable of not getting owned by the likes of Jackson and Pop. Those things never happened. That is all I'm saying.

Also, talent is one thing...winning is another. Is Jason Terry a more talented basketball player than Bruce Bowen was. Of course. But I would take Bruce Bowen on my team ten times before I take Jason Terry. One player does what is needed to win....the other does not. It is that simple mate.....and that is the story of the last decade for the Mavs. A bunch of regular season players putting up elevated stats that disappear during the playoffs. Funny how Dirk's numbers go way up in the playoffs. Why? Because he's a great player that has risen to big moments time and time again. You think the Lakers win all three titles without Horry and Fisher making huge shots? NO...THEY DON"T. You need help....even if you have the 2 best players in the league on your team....you need help.

Such a ****ing double standard....its getting so old.
Great post! :applause:


@Showtime: No one implied that logic. Don't twist words.

Of course the Mavs roster was stacked and talented this year. And of course Dirk was surrounded by enough talent to win a title in the last 10 years, I mean he got to the finals and lost under certain.. dubious.. circumstances, so anyone who thinks he didn't have the talent to win it all is just wrong. But winning a championship is about so much more than talent, there are so many factors involved, but I won't elaborate on any of these factors except talent, because I'm not willing to write an essay on this topic.
The talent Dirk was surrounded with hasn't been as big as most, probably not all, championship teams of the last decade. But talent does not equal success. Because talent doesn't include team chemistry, coaching and the individual shape, let alone officiating, bad luck (not that I intent to lay blame on anybody) etc.

Let's just take a look at this year's Mavs roster, supposedly the best Dirk ever had. Plenty, plenty of talent, granted. But did these talented individuals rise to the occasion?

Jose Barea - Decent roleplay, sparkled a run in the Mavs' game 3 loss. But JJ's fire always burns up quickly.
Rodrigue Beaubois - Oh yeah, Roddy did not disappoint. But Rick Carlisle did. Gotta get a hell of a lot more minutes next season.
Caron Butler - Had two games where in fact did deliver. Should have gotten more clutch minutes in game 3. But again.. Carlisle.
Matt Carroll - Need I say anything?
Erick Dampier - Well, he managed to defend Tim Duncan relatively well. Despite of that.. as bad as Jermaine, especially offensively.
Brendan Haywood - Didn't start because of the Mavs coaching genius, although you have to admit that Brendan
Jason Kidd - JKidd, an all-time great as he might be, never delivered in the playoffs for the Mavs, so the games against the Spurs have been grist for the mill.
Shawn Marion - Definitely not his best series.
Eduardo Najera - He atleast showed passion and energy. Ball-wise, a no-factor.
Dirk Nowitzki - He did disappoint me in one game. Not that he was bad, but he didn't play his usual game. Apart from that, helluva series. Big numbers and big plays by big D.
DeShawn Stevenson - A no-factor.
Jason Terry - Jet had a very unfruitful series. One very good game, the rest not worth mentioning, despite of maybe game 6, where he had an awful first half and killed our momentum with his exchange for Roddy.
Tim Thomas - Unfortunately he wasn't able to play (Get well soon @his wife! There are more important things to life than basketball). Has been underachieving during his career, he had the talent to become a top tier superstar. Nevertheless, would've been a great role player, especially in the playoffs (would've loved to see him play against the Lakers :banana: )


Imo, the Big Three had an even greater chance of getting the chip than any other Mavs squad (apart from the 06 trip to the finals), but the Spurs/Kings have had the better team in 01/02, plain and simple. In 03, the Mavs could have won it all, but unfortunately Dirk collided with Gino which resulted in an injured knee.

Anyhow, Dirk has proven over and over again that he is capable of being a leader, a clutch player and a #1. He may not be up there with Lebron, but he deservingly won an MVP title in a league with prime Kobe, prime KG, Wade, Lebron, prime Nash etc. and could have won it in 05/06 (even Hollinger agrees). To me, he has been a Top 4 player of the last decade (number 1 being Shaq/Timmy followed by Kobe).

[TheCord#20]

Steve Nash.

[SCdac]

I thought his 2006 and 2007 teams, at the helm of Avery Johnson and his defensive attitude, were very good teams. Flawed maybe, but hardly a team that's missing the playoffs in any way. They won 60 and 67 games, and were holding teams to 93.1 PPG and 92.8 PPG. For a Mavericks team under Nelson that was used to playing at a fast pace, that is a huge improvement. Aside from their best players, they had decent role players, and that's part of what it takes to be one of the best teams in the league, it's not all about having multiple all-stars. Harris was emerging as a Tony Parker-type, Stack was a black hole but a capable scorer, Daniels was kind of versatile for his size, Van Horn didn't play much in the Spurs-Mavs series but did drop 5 three's in game 6 and 7, Adrian Griffin was generally a decent defender (1 SPG in 24 MPG), Diop did work on the defensive end too (1.8 BPG) and guarded Duncan decently. Their playoff rotation was like 9-10 deep, hardly a "bad" supporting cast.

[Niquesports]

Ok. Here is the thing. The supporting cast was good...not great. Yes....they had some talent....but it wasn't the right kind of talent or player surrounding Dirk. No...I'm not saying Dirk isn't without blame. But a couple bad playoff series can't define a career. Otherwise...Kobe would be labeled a loser and choker based on his finals performances in 04 and 08...and his performance against the Suns in game 7. Dirk has his faults.....but this thread is about whether or not he's had the same chance to win as the other great players of the last decade....and he just flat out has not.

No other player in the last 30 years has carried a team to a title without a legit 2nd banana and a great coach other than Hakeem in 1994. NO OTHER PLAYER dude. MJ had Pippen. Shaq had Kobe. Wade had Shaq. Come on now. Are you honestly going to sit there and tell me that you would rather have nash/finley over fish/kobe or harris/howard over parker/manu. Avery Johnson over Phil Jackson and Poppovich. Come on man. Nobody on here is saying that Dirk is the best player ever.....but to come on here and say Dirk is the reason the Mavs have not won a title is not fair at all.

Was it Kobe's fault that he coudlnt get out of the first round before Gasol came? Yes....as the best player he gets some blame....but the reality of it is that he needed more help to win in the playoffs. He needed the right team around him....and he got that when Fisher and Gasol came.

Dirk has never had that. You win with defense, great players, and great coaching in the playoffs. Dirk has never played for a great coach and his teams have never been even remotely solid on defense. Why? Well you can blame Dirk...which is grossly inaccurate. Or you can realize that he needed a good center to protect the rim, a guard that wasn't incapable of stopping anyone (harris was this guard) but they panicked and let him go, a shooting guard capable of guarding and creating his own shot, and a coach capable of not getting owned by the likes of Jackson and Pop. Those things never happened. That is all I'm saying.

Also, talent is one thing...winning is another. Is Jason Terry a more talented basketball player than Bruce Bowen was. Of course. But I would take Bruce Bowen on my team ten times before I take Jason Terry. One player does what is needed to win....the other does not. It is that simple mate.....and that is the story of the last decade for the Mavs. A bunch of regular season players putting up elevated stats that disappear during the playoffs. Funny how Dirk's numbers go way up in the playoffs. Why? Because he's a great player that has risen to big moments time and time again. You think the Lakers win all three titles without Horry and Fisher making huge shots? NO...THEY DON"T. You need help....even if you have the 2 best players in the league on your team....you need help.

Such a ****ing double standard....its getting so old.


There is just a few things your missing. No one has said that Dirk is a top 5 player or that he is a bum. What everyone is saying is that the Mavs have scorers whether you want to admit it or not. What they dont have is a inside presence. Dirk being the PF should be more effect inside if he wants his team to win. As someone posted 5 rebounds in a elimination game from your PF ? As you can see the 30 points didnt help the Mavs but i bet 10-15 rebounds would have. I bet if Dirk had about 3 blocks or 5 hard fouls on players driving in the lane would have. Your blaming Dirks teammates for the things he should be doing or his weakness and flaws. He is the "POWER FORWARD" the teams best BIG man. Kidd wouldnt get beat so bad if Dirk was a better paint help defender. Why are you making that dampiers/Haywoods job when Dirk is the teams best "BIG MAN". Dirk could score 50 and the mavs might still lose but I bet if he got 15 rebounds and 15 points on the block they wouldnt lose.My whole case is that if Dirk played more like a true POWER FORWARD the Mavs would be a better team no matter what the teammates do.

[kidachi]

This is my point. None of these guys are good and I feel bad for anyone who thinks they are. lol@all star guard Michael Finley.


Kidd, Marion, Terry, Butler, Finley, Jamison not good?

LISTEN, THEY'RE GOOD. IT'S YOUR F*CKIN PROBLEM NOW..'CAUSE FOR EVERYONE.. THOSE GUYS ARE GREAT PLAYERS..

YOU DUMB B*TCH.

DIRK AIN'T THAT GOOD TO CARRY A TEAM. FOR NOW MAYBE. SO JUST FACE IT. DUMBAS$.

[BlueandGold]

They got the first seed because of Dirk. That team didn't help them win any regular season games. Once the playoffs hit and the defense focused on Dirk forcing his team to beat them and they couldn't because they're garbage. Look what Devin Harris did in Jersey. Almost broke the record for worst team ever and that was Dirk's best player.

that is an out right lie, they finished with one of the best records of all time before the all-star before and were into the 60 win range well before april. People were legitimately saying that those Mavs could have given the 72 win bulls season a good go. They finished that season with 66 wins, a number that could easily be a good 2-3 games higher if it not were some heartbreaking OT losses to phoenix and golden state.

For anyone who's trying to argue against the OP i would just save my breathe because he definitely reeks of a troll. And as for the teammates Dirk has had the past 10 season, I bet Lebron would take any of those players from the mavs teams of 2000-2010 than any of the team's that he's played with up until the Jamison trade this season, and that has yet to be determined as well. There is a reason why the mavs has had something along the lines of 10+ 50 win seasons in a row and it's solely Dirk.

[ginobli2311]

There is just a few things your missing. No one has said that Dirk is a top 5 player or that he is a bum. What everyone is saying is that the Mavs have scorers whether you want to admit it or not. What they dont have is a inside presence. Dirk being the PF should be more effect inside if he wants his team to win. As someone posted 5 rebounds in a elimination game from your PF ? As you can see the 30 points didnt help the Mavs but i bet 10-15 rebounds would have. I bet if Dirk had about 3 blocks or 5 hard fouls on players driving in the lane would have. Your blaming Dirks teammates for the things he should be doing or his weakness and flaws. He is the "POWER FORWARD" the teams best BIG man. Kidd wouldnt get beat so bad if Dirk was a better paint help defender. Why are you making that dampiers/Haywoods job when Dirk is the teams best "BIG MAN". Dirk could score 50 and the mavs might still lose but I bet if he got 15 rebounds and 15 points on the block they wouldnt lose.My whole case is that if Dirk played more like a true POWER FORWARD the Mavs would be a better team no matter what the teammates do.

Absolutely wrong. If dirk was a great defender he would be the best ****ing player ever moron. He needed a Center to protect the rim and he needed some defensive wing players that can guard the perimeter and hit shots. What he doesn't need is more scorers. What you say is somewhat true.....but every player has flaws. I'm sure Tim Duncan would love to be clutch down the stretch of games like Dirk and I'm sure he would love to be able to hit threes and make 90 plus percent of his free throws. Thats what you are forgetting in your example. Dirk can take over games down the stretch much better than any other power forward in the history of the game. Damn you people are so dumb. "Dirk needs to block 3 shots a game" ....jesus this is getting bad.

You have to have the right team built around a star player in order to win. What Dirk actually needed is someone else that could block three shots a game and grab some tough rebounds. Owned again.

[SCdac]

I'm sure Tim Duncan would love to be clutch down the stretch of games like Dirk and I'm sure he would love to be able to hit threes and make 90 plus percent of his free throws. Thats what you are forgetting in your example. Dirk can take over games down the stretch much better than any other power forward in the history of the game.

:roll:

Dirk = GOAT power forward or what?

[Showtime]

"Dirk can take over games down the stretch much better than any other power forward in the history of the game. "

rotflmaobbq

[ginobli2311]

:roll:

Dirk = GOAT power forward or what?

No....as I have said before....Duncan and KG are definitely better. But my point was that there is no perfectly complete player. There are things that Duncan does that Dirk doesn't. there are things that Dirk does that Duncan doesn't. The point is that Duncan has been surrouned by right type of team. Dirk has not. Give Dirk a ben wallace type player and a tayshaun prince type player over for the last decade and you are looking at least 2 titles. but no...lets keep talking about how talented the one dimensional jump shooters dirk has played with are.

[ginobli2311]

"Dirk can take over games down the stretch much better than any other power forward in the history of the game. "

rotflmaobbq

Please tell me who was better? Malone????? Who came up short in almost every big game he played. Duncan????? Who shoots like 60 percent from the line in the 2nd half of games. Barkley?????? KG??????

What other power forward can take over a game??? Funny how dirk has been one of the 5 best clutch players in the league over the last 7 years and in the top 5 as well for game winning shots.

Where are Duncan and KG on that list?????

moron.

[6thManOfTheYear]

You have to have the right team built around a star player in order to win. What Dirk actually needed is someone else that could block three shots a game and grab some tough rebounds. Owned again.

dirk is the power forward. shouldn't he be doing that instead of talking fade away jumpers over guards?

[ginobli2311]

dirk is the power forward. shouldn't he be doing that instead of talking fade away jumpers over guards?

LOL. Yea. Dirk should have to do every single thing for his team. So Shaq should have been shooting threes. Just because he's 7 feet tall doesnt mean he has to fit a certain mold dude. Dirk is also a great rebounder....you make it out like he doesn't board. He averages 9 boards a game for his career. LOL.

[6thManOfTheYear]

LOL. Yea. Dirk should have to do every single thing for his team. So Shaq should have been shooting threes. Just because he's 7 feet tall doesnt mean he has to fit a certain mold dude. Dirk is also a great rebounder....you make it out like he doesn't board. He averages 9 boards a game for his career. LOL.

yet still got 5 rebounds in an elimination game this year.

isnt that what a super star is. someone who can score and defend?

duncan was the leading scorer and leading rebounder and leading in assist in the 02-03 playoffs for his team

[nbastatus]

Even though Dirk never really played with a "legit" superstar, he has tons of supporting casts. When your team is stacked with Butler, Marion, Kidd, JET, and Haywood, it's not possible that you can lose in the first round.

[SCdac]

No....as I have said before....Duncan and KG are definitely better. But my point was that there is no perfectly complete player. There are things that Duncan does that Dirk doesn't. there are things that Dirk does that Duncan doesn't. The point is that Duncan has been surrouned by right type of team. Dirk has not. Give Dirk a ben wallace type player and a tayshaun prince type player over for the last decade and you are looking at least 2 titles. but no...lets keep talking about how talented the one dimensional jump shooters dirk has played with are.

As players, why are Duncan and KG definitely better? I believe it, but I don't know if you really believe it. For the record, being the "most efficient" player doesn't mean shit and doesn't automatically earn you shit. How many championships does Nash have? How many championships does Okur or Bargnani have as prime time players? (Okur was an 11 MPG player in the 04 playoffs). You can point to Larry Bird and a slew of other efficient/great players, but really Larry Bird at 6'9 was a tough, gritty, mentally tough player, at least alot more than Dirk.

[D3vIrGiNiz3r]

Even though Dirk never really played with a "legit" superstar, he has tons of supporting casts. When your team is stacked with Butler, Marion, Kidd, JET, and Haywood, it's not possible that you can lose in the first round.

That's the thing. Those players are terrible. For all the praise Kidd gets, he hasn't even won a single MVP. Plus Kidd is a terrible teammate for Dirk. He didn't even stick around for the last team meeting. The rest of those guys haven't even been an all-star much less MVP.

Nobody can win with these guys yet Dirk is expected to magically, not just get out of the first round, but win a title with those losers? Gimme a break. :no:

[50inchvertical]

That's the thing. Those players are terrible. For all the praise Kidd gets, he hasn't even won a single MVP. Plus Kidd is a terrible teammate for Dirk. He didn't even stick around for the last team meeting. The rest of those guys haven't even been an all-star much less MVP.

Nobody can win with these guys yet Dirk is expected to magically, not just get out of the first round, but win a title with those losers? Gimme a break. :no:
You might want to double check that one.

[D3vIrGiNiz3r]

You might want to double check that one.

I meant multiple times. Anyone can have a good year a couple of times. Dirk has NEVER played with a perennial allstar.

[50inchvertical]

I meant multiple times. Anyone can have a good year a couple of times. Dirk has NEVER played with a perennial allstar.
again, double check that one please or classify exactly how many times does perennial equal.

[kidachi]

Kidd, Marion, Terry, Butler, Finley, Jamison not good?

LISTEN, THEY'RE GOOD. IT'S YOUR F*CKIN PROBLEM NOW..'CAUSE FOR EVERYONE.. THOSE GUYS ARE GREAT PLAYERS..

YOU DUMB B*TCH.

DIRK AIN'T THAT GOOD TO CARRY A TEAM. FOR NOW MAYBE. SO JUST FACE IT. DUMBAS$.

^^ i repeat OP.

it's your problem. you're the only one who thinks those guys aren't good.

IF THOSE GUYS AREN'T GOOD, WHAT DO YOU CALL THE GUYS KOBE AND LEBRON HAVE? KOBE PRE GASOL AND LEBRON PRE MO AND/OR JAMISON.

OR THE GUYS WADE HAS.

SUGGESTION, DON'T MAKE YOURSELF BELIEVE THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE OK? YOU ARE F*CKIN DELUSIONAL.

YOU PITY DIRK WITH THOSE TEAMMATES? GET THE F*CK OUTTA HERE. YOU'RE A JOKE.

[ginobli2311]

As players, why are Duncan and KG definitely better? I believe it, but I don't know if you really believe it. For the record, being the "most efficient" player doesn't mean shit and doesn't automatically earn you shit. How many championships does Nash have? How many championships does Okur or Bargnani have as prime time players? (Okur was an 11 MPG player in the 04 playoffs). You can point to Larry Bird and a slew of other efficient/great players, but really Larry Bird at 6'9 was a tough, gritty, mentally tough player, at least alot more than Dirk.

This post doesn't makes sense. What are you talking about?

[D3vIrGiNiz3r]

again, double check that one please or classify exactly how many times does perennial equal.

Who has Dirk played with that has been an all-star more than two times? Nash? He sucked in Dallas. Kidd? Probably the worst player on the team. Can't shoot and is old as dirt. Wish he would retire.

[Fallguy20]

Who cares? Dirk is supposed to be a Wade, Bron, or Melo.

Dirk is a choker. Darn white guys...

Wade hasnt done anything either for awhile. Melo just got knocked out. Your point?

[SEEBASS1234]

steve nash

[D3vIrGiNiz3r]

steve nash

Steve Nash sucked in Dallas.

[vinsane01]

^^ i repeat OP.

it's your problem. you're the only one who thinks those guys aren't good.

IF THOSE GUYS AREN'T GOOD, WHAT DO YOU CALL THE GUYS KOBE AND LEBRON HAVE? KOBE PRE GASOL AND LEBRON PRE MO AND/OR JAMISON.

OR THE GUYS WADE HAS.

SUGGESTION, DON'T MAKE YOURSELF BELIEVE THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE OK? YOU ARE F*CKIN DELUSIONAL.

YOU PITY DIRK WITH THOSE TEAMMATES? GET THE F*CK OUTTA HERE. YOU'RE A JOKE.

Kobe and bron didnt win a ring pre gasol or pre jamison. Kobe only won a ring when he got gasol (he was a 2nd option with shaq). Lebron dont have any yet. So your argument is basically useless.

IMO, This was the year dirk had the best team around him.Too bad nobody stepped up and too bad he faced a rejuvenated spurs team . BUT HE IS NO CHOKER THOUGH IN THIS SERIES or 06 finals. His only "choke" was against GSW. That's it.

[Fallguy20]

^^ i repeat OP.

it's your problem. you're the only one who thinks those guys aren't good.

IF THOSE GUYS AREN'T GOOD, WHAT DO YOU CALL THE GUYS KOBE AND LEBRON HAVE? KOBE PRE GASOL AND LEBRON PRE MO AND/OR JAMISON.

OR THE GUYS WADE HAS.

SUGGESTION, DON'T MAKE YOURSELF BELIEVE THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE OK? YOU ARE F*CKIN DELUSIONAL.

YOU PITY DIRK WITH THOSE TEAMMATES? GET THE F*CK OUTTA HERE. YOU'RE A JOKE.

while I dont mirror the enthusiasm, the basic meat of this post I agree with. its not so much that they suck as perception is that they do.

[ILLsmak]

People are eating up that 5 rebound stat. Did they get out rebounded in that game? A bit. A bit more because the Spurs missed less shots yet had more offensive rebounds. However, are you guys looking at the fouls called? Are you looking at Dirk's foul trouble. Possibly that might have limited his aggressiveness.

Let's go further... it's pretty obvious that a lot of you guys hate Dirk. I don't understand why. I don't really like Dirk, but I've started supporting him more lately because I hate the bad rap he gets...

Anyway, imagine that you didn't know who any of these guys were. Not even Dirk... it doesn't matter who was an all star before, or what they did in the past... or what they did even during the regular season. If you were watching that series and it was the first time you had seen the Mavs you would think that Dirk was the only good player on their team. You'd maybe give a nod to Butler who had an average series... but aside from all of the name recognition, those guys were horrible! They did well to even be close in that series.

Also, I want you to look at Dirk's first four fouls...

http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=300429024&period=2

He basically got called for fouls three straight possessions and then got taken out for awhile then two minutes after that they called him for his fourth. That's in the first half.

I think that explains his rebounding numbers, even though the team as a whole rebounded well.

I dunno why I keep saying more because people keep coming in with the same nonsense. I hope some day you guys learn to look at things objectively and realize that it's really worthless to be a hater.

Peace

-Smak

[icemanfan]

Steve Nash sucked in Dallas.
yes that is why the Suns gave him the big payday. Because they somehow guesses that he was going to instantly not suck and become a league MVP. How clairvoyant of them. What ****ing masters of the crystal ball they were. YOU ****ING USELESS MINDLESS BASKETBALL MENTAL MIDGET!
Dumbass

[JtotheIzzo]

Well, that's because Nash is a system PG. He thrives in PHX but wouldn't thrive anywhere else (to the level that he is thriving now) unless he played in NY or Golden State.


people like you need to be punched in the c*nt

[trig]

nash didnt suck in dallas, his court vision was worthless since dirk loves to hold the ball and go for the tough fadeaway. Nash is better in dallas since he has an athletic big and 3pt shooters around him

Dirk has elite jumpshot but the rest of game is not elite

[tontoz]

Funny how Nash and Harris played so much better immediately after they left Dallas. Maybe a ball stopping jump shooting big man doesn't bring out the best in other players.

[D3vIrGiNiz3r]

Funny how Nash and Harris played so much better immediately after they left Dallas. Maybe a ball stopping jump shooting big man doesn't bring out the best in other players.

That's BS. They just didn't try hard in Dallas.

[kidachi]

That's BS. They just didn't try hard in Dallas.
:oldlol:

you can't say that..

so Dirk is just not trying hard for 10+ years now? he's not winning titles..

Nash couldn't blossom in Dallas because he's all about fastbreak and dunk.. not drive and kickout to Dirk..

sure he does that in phoenix too.. but Nash had no one to give the ball to in Dallas for a fastbreak dunk. NO ONE COMPARED TO PHOENIX.

you know listing all those players and saying they weren't good enough for Dirk to become a supporting cast is ABSOLUTELY A JOKE.

Even Dirk would slap the hell out of you if he sees that.

[tontoz]

That's BS. They just didn't try hard in Dallas.


:oldlol:


Kids these days. smh

[Take Your Lumps]

Don't say Nash because we all know Nash wasn't good in Dallas and didn't actually start trying until he got his own team.

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7400000/Abe-Simpson-walking-in-and-out-the-simpsons-7414427-320-240.gif

[icemanfan]

What the "defenders" have clearly done is prove that Dirk is opposite of quality players like Tim Duncan. While great players make those around them look better and seem better than they really are Dirk makes players look worse and seem worse than they really are. According to you guys all these great players like Nash were crap until they left Dirk's side. Thanks for pointing this out to us. We had no idea you could be so bad as to lower the value of a future MVP and HOF'er. This a great point. To add a bit it seems he also can take a current great player and future HOF'er and lower them to junk status also. Wow I finally understand what you were trying to say. Playing with Dirk is horrid for your career. No self respecting NBA star should consider moving to Dallas as Dirk will make you look like a junk player thus lowering your value. If you already play in "big d" the other teams GM has to learn to look at how great you would be if Dirk was not your team mate. It is that or your just being an asinine jerk trying to come up with a crappy excuse as to why Dirk currently does not have a title. ither way you come off as stupid and he comes off as horrid. I do not think the latter is true. The former only you can answer.

[jjayfive]

terry, caron, marion are all pretty good in my opinion... mavs need someone who can score or demand a double in the paint. dirks is a future hall of famer, but 7 foot jump shooters don't win championships...

[ginobli2311]

What the "defenders" have clearly done is prove that Dirk is opposite of quality players like Tim Duncan. While great players make those around them look better and seem better than they really are Dirk makes players look worse and seem worse than they really are. According to you guys all these great players like Nash were crap until they left Dirk's side. Thanks for pointing this out to us. We had no idea you could be so bad as to lower the value of a future MVP and HOF'er. This a great point. To add a bit it seems he also can take a current great player and future HOF'er and lower them to junk status also. Wow I finally understand what you were trying to say. Playing with Dirk is horrid for your career. No self respecting NBA star should consider moving to Dallas as Dirk will make you look like a junk player thus lowering your value. If you already play in "big d" the other teams GM has to learn to look at how great you would be if Dirk was not your team mate. It is that or your just being an asinine jerk trying to come up with a crappy excuse as to why Dirk currently does not have a title. ither way you come off as stupid and he comes off as horrid. I do not think the latter is true. The former only you can answer.


Wow. It does not get much worse than this post. What are you smoking? Putting up "stats" does not mean you are a great player. Steve Nash did not get better when he left Dallas at all......he just simply went and played in a system that grossly inflates statistics. You can't win playing the run and gun style....and if Nash was so "great"....he would have at least made 1 NBA finals with the loaded teams he's played on for the Suns.

As I said before. I truly think Dirk and Nash could have won a title together. But they needed to be surrounded with players like Ben Wallace and Prince....not guys like Lafrentz/Bradley/Terry. Why is this so hard to understand? YOU CAN'T WIN IN THE PLAYOFFS PLAYING RUN AND GUN. IT DOES NOT WORK. YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO PLAY DEFENSE. YOU HAVE TO HAVE A TEAM THAT CAN PROTECT THE RIM AND GUARD THE PERIMETER SOMEWHAT WELL. THE MAVS NEEDED SOMEONE TO PROTECT THE RIM AND BRING SOME TOUGHNESS TO THE FRONT LINE AND THEY NEEDED SOMEONE WHO COULD GUARD SHOOTING GUARDS DECENTLY WELL LIKE KOBE AND WADE.

Why are you people so dumb?
Please. Someone give me an example of a run and gun team that doesn't play defense winning the title in the last 30 years.

For the last ****ing time. You do not win championships with guys like Terry. You need perimeter defense and interior defense around your star. Every other star that has won a championship has had that around him except for Dirk. Funny.

[50inchvertical]

Dirk has had better supporting casts over his career than anybody other than Kobe and Shaq, mainly by virtue of having each other in their primes.

Who else can say they had a 2 time MVP while in his late 20s?

They are going to just keep rebuilding around Dirk every year without ever considering that maybe he is part of the problem.

[ginobli2311]

Dirk has had better supporting casts over his career than anybody other than Kobe and Shaq, mainly by virtue of having each other in their primes.

Who else can say they had a 2 time MVP while in his late 20s?

They are going to just keep rebuilding around Dirk every year without ever considering that maybe he is part of the problem.


Not true. Dude....do you not understand simple logic. You can't win a title with a bunch of regular season "stat" guys. When Dirk played with Nash and Finley they didn't even have a real center. They played with Laettner/Bradley/Booth/Najera/Lafrentz. A big 3 of Dirk/Nash/Finley was good enough to win a title....for sure.....i agree with that. The problem? They didn't surround those guys with what they needed at all. Lets take a look starting in the 01-02 season when Dirk was in his 3rd year:

Best 5 players outside of Dirk/Nash/Finley:

02:
-van exel
-juwan howard
-lafrentz
-tim hardway
-najera/adrian griffin

not one center on the roster other than shawn bradley. just a bunch of scorers. this team had absolutely no chance of beatin the spurs/lakers/king en route to a title.

03:
-van exel
-lafrentz
-najera
-walt williams
-raja bell

again. not one center on the roster other than shawn bradley. one goo defender in bell on the entire team. finley and van exel both need a lot of shots to score their points as neither shoot over 45%.

04:
-Marquis Daniels
-Jamison
-Walker
-Howard (as a rookie....he didn't play much and average 5 points a game)
-Najera

Actually a decent lineup but still missing a center and anyone that can really defend. Daniels is a pretty good defender but everyone else on the team is below average. AND NO CENTER TO COMBAT DUNCAN/SHAQ.

And thats it. That what Dirk/Nash/Finley got to play with. They average around 55 wins during that stretch. Are you honestly going to say that they had good enough teams to win the title over the Spurs/Lakers? Come on now...this is just getting retarded.

After the above season:

The Mavs did what they had to do. They got rid of Nash in favor of becoming more defensive minded and got a center that they thought would be a big improvement in Dampier. Unfortunately Dampier turned out to be another regular season "stat" guy that can't do anything in the playoffs.

You are really confusing what wins in the playoffs. The mavs then surrounded Dirk with high volume shooters and scorers like terry/stackhouse/vanhorn....and while it led to some regular season success....they had no shot at all to legitimately contend for a title.

I ask you....are you honestly going to tell me that any of those above teams were good enough to win a title?

[phoenix18]

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/7400000/Abe-Simpson-walking-in-and-out-the-simpsons-7414427-320-240.gif
Sometimes, a gif is all you need to express how stupid a post is.

[Kblaze8855]

You are really confusing what wins in the playoffs. The mavs then surrounded Dirk with high volume shooters and scorers like terry/stackhouse/vanhorn....and while it led to some regular season success....they had no shot at all to legitimately contend for a title.

And yet they were up 13 with 6 minutes to go in gamne 3 of a series they were already 2-0 in? Dirk misses the FTs to send it to OT with 3 seconds left while Wade was handling business. People talk about FTs but Wade snatched that game on jumpers and defense. he blocked the attempted lob at the end too.

A 90% Ft shooter misses the biggest shot of his life...after allowing a massive comeback in a game they should have cruised to an insurmountable series lead. But he missed and they lost. Game 4 they put up a 7 point 4th quarter(Nba record low for a finals game) in a game where Dirk had twice as many turnovers as field goals. In game 5 dirk had 20 points on 42% shooting in 49 minutes. While Terry had 35 on 57% shooting. Dirk put them up late but unlike dirk...when Wade got to take FTs for the game he made them. Howard calls the dumb TO but he had 25/10 to Dirks 20/8 so its not like he was a no show. The Mavs just lost.

Dirk didnt show up on a star level in 4 and 5 and while he did play well in 6...and his supporting cast finally faded...they didnt let him down any more than he did them in the previous games. Terry was 7-25 or whatever it was in game 6 but that no more suprising than Dirk being 2-14 and allowing a 7 point 4th quarter in game 4. And its not like Terry and the roleplayers didnt carry Dirk some games that series. They won game 1 with Dirk going 4-14 with 16 points and Terry having 32.

If Dirk just played oin a high level the whole series(Or maybe...made his free throw in game 3) they Mavs win it all.

Really..how does a team have what it takes to be up 13 cruising to a 3-0 finals lead but not have what it takes to win a title? The Mavs played D, had role players, and played all out. They had what it took to win a title. Either Dirk or his supporting cast faded away in the big games. They didnt come together at the same time. But his sidekicks didnt have any more off games than he did.

[ukplayer4]

And yet they were up 13 with 6 minutes to go in gamne 3 of a series they were already 2-0 in? Dirk misses the FTs to send it to OT with 3 seconds left while Wade was handling business. People talk about FTs but Wade snatched that game on jumpers and defense. he blocked the attempted lob at the end too.

A 90% Ft shooter misses the biggest shot of his life...after allowing a massive comeback in a game they should have cruised to an insurmountable series lead. But he missed and they lost. Game 4 they put up a 7 point 4th quarter(Nba record low for a finals game) in a game where Dirk had twice as many turnovers as field goals. In game 5 dirk had 20 points on 42% shooting in 49 minutes. While Terry had 35 on 57% shooting. Dirk put them up late but unlike dirk...when Wade got to take FTs for the game he made them. Howard calls the dumb TO but he had 25/10 to Dirks 20/8 so its not like he was a no show. The Mavs just lost.

Dirk didnt show up on a star level in 4 and 5 and while he did play well in 6...and his supporting cast finally faded...they didnt let him down any more than he did them in the previous games. Terry was 7-25 or whatever it was in game 6 but that no more suprising than Dirk being 2-14 and allowing a 7 point 4th quarter in game 4. And its not like Terry and the roleplayers didnt carry Dirk some games that series. They won game 1 with Dirk going 4-14 with 16 points and Terry having 32.

If Dirk just played oin a high level the whole series(Or maybe...made his free throw in game 3) they Mavs win it all.

Really..how does a team have what it takes to be up 13 cruising to a 3-0 finals lead but not have what it takes to win a title? The Mavs played D, had role players, and played all out. They had what it took to win a title. Either Dirk or his supporting cast faded away in the big games. They didnt come together at the same time. But his sidekicks didnt have any more off games than he did.



:applause: well said.

[ginobli2311]

:applause: well said.

You are exactly right. But I was talking about the Nash/Finley/Dirk era about teams that had no shot to win a title.

As I have already said....the Mavs clearly had a good enough team to win the title in 06. Dirk played poorly in the finals....and in my opinion, the mavs got absolutely screwed by the refs. But they didn't win in the finals and a big reason was that Dirk did not play well.

However, Dirk lost to NBA history. Which simply states that you need great coaching and at least two great players to win it all....but forget that for a moment. The difference is that Dirk has only had one team in his career with a legit shot at a title....and the only reason they even got to the finals was because Dirk took it to a different level and dominated a better Spurs team and had one of the best road game 7 performances of all time.

What you say is exactly my point. You can't judge a career on one performance in the NBA finals or another bad performance in a playoff series. Dirk has played amazingly well in the playoffs throughout his career and has come up big time and time again. If he had a ton of legit title contending teams than i would agree with you.

Look at it this way...if you want to judge a player:
Lets take Kobe:
What if the only two times he got to the NBA finals were in 04 and 08. Most players don't even get to play on teams that talented...but lets say those were his only trips to the finals and the rest of his career was spent playing on average teams the way most star player's careers go. most stars get 1 or 2 championship runs and its make or break. Kobe shot 37 percent in 04, froze shaq out of the offense, and didn't do anything to help his team on or off the court. In 08, kobe was the third best player in the series behind pierce and KG. ....and in my opinion its debatable that ray allen was better as well. How would we judge Kobe if those were his only chances. What if that made up his career? What about not getting out of the first round for a 3 year stretch in his prime? What about bailing on his team in game 7?

You see. There is no such thing as a perfect basketball player. Even some of the best ever come up short at times. Dirk has simply not had the same chances the other greats of the last decade have had. I don't know how anyone can debate that. When Kobe and Butler played on the same team the Lakers didn't even make the playoffs. So much of success in the NBA is situational.

Like I have said. 28 of the last 30 NBA champions have had great coaching and multiple hall of fame coaches. the other 2 were far more talented and better built for playoff success than any mavs team.

WHY ARE WE HOLDING DIRK TO A STANDARD THAT HAS NEVER EVEN EXISTED FOR THE MICHAEL JORDAN'S AND BIRD'S OF THE WORLD. IT IS NOT FAIR TO EXPECT DIRK TO DO SOMETHING THAT HAS REALLY NEVER BEEN DONE.

[Kblaze8855]

Thing is...im not judging him by one series. Ive been talking Dirk on here since the 01/02 season. Usually in Dirk/KG topics laughing at the idea that Dirk is better because hes a "winner" while never having won anything. But I respect him more now than I did when I discussed him often.

But fact is...

03 - Best record in the league(tied I think) loses a tough conference finals with some injury issues but thats a pass. best player in the series though? Duncan. Dirk had some numbers if I remember correctly(some like...30/15 games). But Duncan was the best in the league at the time. Period.

04. 2 MVPs 3 additional all stars. 50+ wins. first round exit. Best in the series I gotta say was probabyl Dirk.

05. I wanna say 57 or so wins....gets outplayed in the playoffs by his former sidekick who many said was now better than him. Imagine Pippen leaving the Bulls and dropping 48 points and 30 point triple doubles to knock out MJ. Crushing shit. Nash best player in the series.

06. Great team. Classic title winning team. Shooter.s Role players. Defense. Dirk finally "gets it" and bullies guys in the paint. Biggest finals choke ever. wade owned the series.

07. MVP...67 wins after starting like 05-. Could have won 70 games. That good. Lose in the first round in the greatest upset in american sports history by record. Baron Davis >Dirk in the series. Dirk goes on going I think 2-11 for 8 points. As the MVP...laughed out of the playoffs and mentally crushed running off to the desert somewhere to regroup.

08. Another 50+ win team beaten in the first round. Chris Paul easily the best player.

Last two years fresh in memory. he was better than in the past but he clearly didnt just snatch victory from the Jaws of defeat. The Nuggets handled them in 4 or 5 and the Spurs dealt with them too.

he wasnt exactly at fault for either....but he didnt do anything legendary either.

And Legendary is fair to expect from an MVP who was runner up the season before. From one of the best player of his era.

What are his legendary moments? 50 in the WCF? 3 point play vs the Spurs in I think the second round?

Dirk doesnt just take over shit and he has the talent to do so....while also having teams that dont make him have to do it. THe superstar perfect situaiton. Great team that you can lean on....while also able to take over if you must.

Dirk has had like 7 years of teams with either the raw talent or the overall makeup to win it all and he has suffered the most crushing string of heartbreaking laughable losses I can remember. He is outperformed by opposing stars too often. And some guys not really on his level. Like Karl Malone getting beasted by Hardaway, Kemp, and so on.

And while hes the issue....I think he just passed Karl Malone for most 50 win first round exits too...

Guy is great and all. But people cant be blamed for blaming the common factor of years of underperforming in the playoffs. Dude is in his 30s. Hes been around. Hes had a long and storied career. Eventually it has to stop being on everyone else that he fails. Its not just...his fault. But its not everyone elses either.

[ginobli2311]

Thing is...im not judging him by one series. Ive been talking Dirk on here since the 01/02 season. Usually in Dirk/KG topics laughing at the idea that Dirk is better because hes a "winner" while never having won anything. But I respect him more now than I did when I discussed him often.

But fact is...

03 - Best record in the league(tied I think) loses a tough conference finals with some injury issues but thats a pass. best player in the series though? Duncan. Dirk had some numbers if I remember correctly(some like...30/15 games). But Duncan was the best in the league at the time. Period.

04. 2 MVPs 3 additional all stars. 50+ wins. first round exit. Best in the series I gotta say was probabyl Dirk.

05. I wanna say 57 or so wins....gets outplayed in the playoffs by his former sidekick who many said was now better than him. Imagine Pippen leaving the Bulls and dropping 48 points and 30 point triple doubles to knock out MJ. Crushing shit. Nash best player in the series.

06. Great team. Classic title winning team. Shooter.s Role players. Defense. Dirk finally "gets it" and bullies guys in the paint. Biggest finals choke ever. wade owned the series.

07. MVP...67 wins after starting like 05-. Could have won 70 games. That good. Lose in the first round in the greatest upset in american sports history by record. Baron Davis >Dirk in the series. Dirk goes on going I think 2-11 for 8 points. As the MVP...laughed out of the playoffs and mentally crushed running off to the desert somewhere to regroup.

08. Another 50+ win team beaten in the first round. Chris Paul easily the best player.

Last two years fresh in memory. he was better than in the past but he clearly didnt just snatch victory from the Jaws of defeat. The Nuggets handled them in 4 or 5 and the Spurs dealt with them too.

he wasnt exactly at fault for either....but he didnt do anything legendary either.

And Legendary is fair to expect from an MVP who was runner up the season before. From one of the best player of his era.

What are his legendary moments? 50 in the WCF? 3 point play vs the Spurs in I think the second round?

Dirk doesnt just take over shit and he has the talent to do so....while also having teams that dont make him have to do it. THe superstar perfect situaiton. Great team that you can lean on....while also able to take over if you must.

Dirk has had like 7 years of teams with either the raw talent or the overall makeup to win it all and he has suffered the most crushing string of heartbreaking laughable losses I can remember. He is outperformed by opposing stars too often. And some guys not really on his level. Like Karl Malone getting beasted by Hardaway, Kemp, and so on.

And while hes the issue....I think he just passed Karl Malone for most 50 win first round exits too...

Guy is great and all. But people cant be blamed for blaming the common factor of years of underperforming in the playoffs. Dude is in his 30s. Hes been around. Hes had a long and storied career. Eventually it has to stop being on everyone else that he fails. Its not just...his fault. But its not everyone elses either.


Epic fail post. Why are you ignoring every fact. You can't win in the playoffs without multiple great players and a defensive minded team and great coaching. You could put 8 all-stars on the same team and if they don't have someone to protect the rim and some good perimeter defenders you would not win it all.

It's not on Dirk to best the best defender on the team. It's not on Dirk to guard the perimeter. You can come on here and talk about how great these "all-star" players are but the reality is that you have to have a well built team....talent is not everything. Do you understand how much worse the Lakers would be with amare instead of gasol? Do you understand how much better the Mavs would have been with Ben Wallace over the last 5 years instead of Dampier.

If Dirk had the right pieces around him for 7 years I would agree with you. But no team in NBA history is going to win playing run and gun or relying on players like terry/stackhouse/lafrentz/jamison.

Just ask Lebron how it feels to play with a bunch of regular season stars like mo williams and jamison. or are you going to say that lebron can't win a title as the best player on a team either.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Its not just...his fault. But its not everyone elses either.

Most of the board disagrees with that statement. In fact, most blame him for the losses moreso than anyone else on the Mavs... even when Dirk actually does quite well.

[50inchvertical]

Kind of like how Mavs (Dirk) groupies like to blame everything on Dirk's teammates, even when they play well and Dirk shoots sub 40%. Or they blame the coach, or the refs, or the Commish, or Hitler, I've seen it all.

[Kblaze8855]

Epic fail post.

I find it hard to take most people serious after such an awful start. Just so you know.


Why are you ignoring every fact.

You arent speaking facts. You are speaking opinions. Most of what I said is fact. A simple breakdown of what happened.


You can't win in the playoffs without multiple great players and a defensive minded team and great coaching. You could put 8 all-stars on the same team and if they don't have someone to protect the rim and some good perimeter defenders you would not win it all.

It's not on Dirk to best the best defender on the team. It's not on Dirk to guard the perimeter. You can come on here and talk about how great these "all-star" players are but the reality is that you have to have a well built team....talent is not everything. Do you understand how much worse the Lakers would be with amare instead of gasol? Do you understand how much better the Mavs would have been with Ben Wallace over the last 5 years instead of Dampier.

If Dirk had the right pieces around him for 7 years I would agree with you. But no team in NBA history is going to win playing run and gun or relying on players like terry/stackhouse/lafrentz/jamison.

Just ask Lebron how it feels to play with a bunch of regular season stars like mo williams and jamison. or are you going to say that lebron can't win a title as the best player on a team either.

Im gonna make this very simple.

If Dirk didnt have the pieces needed to win it all he wouldnt have been up 13 with 6 minutes left in a series the ywere 2-0 in. Just how it is. You dont have a team good enough to do that.....but not good enough to win. What happened is he didnt win it for them. Wade did. Dirk...missed FTs, playedl ike garbage the next game, only got 35 on 57% sooting from his useless sidekick in game 5 while he got 20 on42%, and by game 6 played well but had the poor performances of role players for his fans to point at while ignoring his own poor ones where they carried him earlier.

Im sick of this culture of excuses. 5 all stars...not the right kind. Rebuild the supporting cast...make the finals...suffer the greatest choke in finals history. They never had the pieces to win...only the pieces to go up 2-0 in the finals and up 13 late in game 3. Clearly they just didnt have the ability to win. Forget Dirk getting outplayed by the opposing superstar(again) and missing the FT to save the game. Forget 2-14 next game with the worst 4th quarter in playoff history. Forget 2-11 and 8 points getting laughed out of the building in the worst upset ever. Forget the most good(50+) team first round exits ever.

They just didnt have what it took. Tim Duncan and a 15ppg 40% shooting young point a 7ppg 38% shooting Manu had a dreamteam. Hakeem his insane sidekick with the worst shot selection ever a good but not great 4 and some role players...great squad. Its not enough to have the most talent in the league....OR...nearly the most on a good defense with a hard nosed coach who gets you within a FT of possibly closing ou tthe finals in OT.

No. Its not enough.

MVPs, all stars, defenses, and all..whatever. Dirk never had the team. Even though they got as close to winning the title as possible then choked it away with the main choker(relative to fair expectatios of what each player would provide) the guy who didnt have enough help.....

**** outta here.

The Mavs had plenty. Know who didnt have enough to win it all? Lebron dragging Larry Hughes and Eric Snow to the finals. Dirk had more than enough to win and if he didnt he wouldnt have been in game 3 about to go up 3-0 before letting it slip away.

You dont get that close when you dont have what it takes. You dont. They got so close to the ring Mavs fans were already bragging about the win. Telling people Dirk finally proved himself. Planning parades and shit.

Up 13....in the 4th....6 minutes t ogo. They couldnt hold a 13 point lead with the length of 2 commercial breaks between them and pretty much...the title.

But they never had the team needed to win?

And people wonder why so many find this place intolerable these days....

**** it. i'll take the "epic fail" if success is believing this delusional bullshit. They had a team perfectly capable of winning it all in at least 3 of the years and 2 of them ended it all time great upsets Dirk doing little if anything to prevent either.

Close enough to the ring for QVC to start filming the Mavs title winning gear promos and choke it away. Then a 67 win team and the MVP of the league goes out shooting 2-11 to a .500 team guarding him with small forwards that itself got wiped out in 5 games in the second round(with Boozer beasting those same forwards) before missing the playoffs the next year. But yea....

Never had the team.

They...Dirk very very much included...didnt choke. They never had the team. The yare jut regular season players. Dirk isnt. Dirk didnt fail....even having more turnovers than shots in game 4 after missing the biggest FT in team history in game 3 and watching Wade take over the rest. Not even getting bullied by Steven Jackson and a rotation of guys 6'5'' to 6'8'' into 35% shooting. Not on Dirk.

Its unfair. So unfair to expect a 100 million dollar 7 foot MVP to make a ****ing free throw with the title perhaps on the line. To outplay Baron Davis in an 8-1 matchup. To not lose in the first round with a 50 win team 4-5 times.

Its all so unfair. because we all know...KG didnt get hated for losing with worse teams than Dirk...wait...he did. Ok ....ok...Iverson never got flack for not having good teams. And he had better team than dirk! Oh wait...no he didnt. He had much worse ones....and still gets hated on. He gets hated on for season he had 44 year old Glenn Robinson as his best sidekick. Kobe 05-07 didnt get any hate at all for losing. None. ISH stood together in firm opposition to the haters and comissioned a "Dont blame Kobe" statue with donations to the "No haters allowed" fund. Wait...wait...I forgot about the dozens of people who live to do nothing but hate on him. I forgot the 3 year circle jerk they had with him losing on teams worse than Dirks. But Tmac. theres a good one nobody has uttered a word against him leading all those great teams to first round exits. Kinda great I mean. sorta great. Great....in a hard to define way. Drew Gooden and Pat Garrity great. Surely nobody found means to hate on him for losing with such outstanding teams....

Yea. Dirk is the only guy who gets called a loser/choke artist. The only one....other than virtually everyone else who ever lost in such ways.

And hes the least deserving of it of course. Since he...unlike them...never had a good enough team to win. Only good enough to go up 13 in the 4th in game 3 while already 2-0....

But that just wont cut it. Thats not enough for a superstar future hall of famer.

They never gave him a team that could get him up 30 with 6 minutes left and a ring on the line...

So its all just hate. Unfounded Dirk only hate.

How....****ing...unfair.

[shadow]

^damn that's what i call ownage.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

KBlaze, according to your facts this is the all-stars on teams this year 2009-2010:

Cavs--5
Celtics--5
Lakers--3
SA--5
Orlando--4
Utah--4
Portland--3
Phx---3

And there are many mediocre teams that have two all-stars. Do you honestly think that the above teams have that many all-star players on their team? Well, I guess you do because those are the facts.

[ginobli2311]

I find it hard to take most people serious after such an awful start. Just so you know.



You arent speaking facts. You are speaking opinions. Most of what I said is fact. A simple breakdown of what happened.


Im gonna make this very simple.

If Dirk didnt have the pieces needed to win it all he wouldnt have been up 13 with 6 minutes left in a series the ywere 2-0 in. Just how it is. You dont have a team good enough to do that.....but not good enough to win. What happened is he didnt win it for them. Wade did. Dirk...missed FTs, playedl ike garbage the next game, only got 35 on 57% sooting from his useless sidekick in game 5 while he got 20 on42%, and by game 6 played well but had the poor performances of role players for his fans to point at while ignoring his own poor ones where they carried him earlier.

Im sick of this culture of excuses. 5 all stars...not the right kind. Rebuild the supporting cast...make the finals...suffer the greatest choke in finals history. They never had the pieces to win...only the pieces to go up 2-0 in the finals and up 13 late in game 3. Clearly they just didnt have the ability to win. Forget Dirk getting outplayed by the opposing superstar(again) and missing the FT to save the game. Forget 2-14 next game with the worst 4th quarter in playoff history. Forget 2-11 and 8 points getting laughed out of the building in the worst upset ever. Forget the most good(50+) team first round exits ever.

They just didnt have what it took. Tim Duncan and a 15ppg 40% shooting young point a 7ppg 38% shooting Manu had a dreamteam. Hakeem his insane sidekick with the worst shot selection ever a good but not great 4 and some role players...great squad. Its not enough to have the most talent in the league....OR...nearly the most on a good defense with a hard nosed coach who gets you within a FT of possibly closing ou tthe finals in OT.

No. Its not enough.

MVPs, all stars, defenses, and all..whatever. Dirk never had the team. Even though they got as close to winning the title as possible then choked it away with the main choker(relative to fair expectatios of what each player would provide) the guy who didnt have enough help.....

**** outta here.

The Mavs had plenty. Know who didnt have enough to win it all? Lebron dragging Larry Hughes and Eric Snow to the finals. Dirk had more than enough to win and if he didnt he wouldnt have been in game 3 about to go up 3-0 before letting it slip away.

You dont get that close when you dont have what it takes. You dont. They got so close to the ring Mavs fans were already bragging about the win. Telling people Dirk finally proved himself. Planning parades and shit.

Up 13....in the 4th....6 minutes t ogo. They couldnt hold a 13 point lead with the length of 2 commercial breaks between them and pretty much...the title.

But they never had the team needed to win?

And people wonder why so many find this place intolerable these days....

**** it. i'll take the "epic fail" if success is believing this delusional bullshit. They had a team perfectly capable of winning it all in at least 3 of the years and 2 of them ended it all time great upsets Dirk doing little if anything to prevent either.

Close enough to the ring for QVC to start filming the Mavs title winning gear promos and choke it away. Then a 67 win team and the MVP of the league goes out shooting 2-11 to a .500 team guarding him with small forwards that itself got wiped out in 5 games in the second round(with Boozer beasting those same forwards) before missing the playoffs the next year. But yea....

Never had the team.

They...Dirk very very much included...didnt choke. They never had the team. The yare jut regular season players. Dirk isnt. Dirk didnt fail....even having more turnovers than shots in game 4 after missing the biggest FT in team history in game 3 and watching Wade take over the rest. Not even getting bullied by Steven Jackson and a rotation of guys 6'5'' to 6'8'' into 35% shooting. Not on Dirk.

Its unfair. So unfair to expect a 100 million dollar 7 foot MVP to make a ****ing free throw with the title perhaps on the line. To outplay Baron Davis in an 8-1 matchup. To not lose in the first round with a 50 win team 4-5 times.

Its all so unfair. because we all know...KG didnt get hated for losing with worse teams than Dirk...wait...he did. Ok ....ok...Iverson never got flack for not having good teams. And he had better team than dirk! Oh wait...no he didnt. He had much worse ones....and still gets hated on. He gets hated on for season he had 44 year old Glenn Robinson as his best sidekick. Kobe 05-07 didnt get any hate at all for losing. None. ISH stood together in firm opposition to the haters and comissioned a "Dont blame Kobe" statue with donations to the "No haters allowed" fund. Wait...wait...I forgot about the dozens of people who live to do nothing but hate on him. I forgot the 3 year circle jerk they had with him losing on teams worse than Dirks. But Tmac. theres a good one nobody has uttered a word against him leading all those great teams to first round exits. Kinda great I mean. sorta great. Great....in a hard to define way. Drew Gooden and Pat Garrity great. Surely nobody found means to hate on him for losing with such outstanding teams....

Yea. Dirk is the only guy who gets called a loser/choke artist. The only one....other than virtually everyone else who ever lost in such ways.

And hes the least deserving of it of course. Since he...unlike them...never had a good enough team to win. Only good enough to go up 13 in the 4th in game 3 while already 2-0....

But that just wont cut it. Thats not enough for a superstar future hall of famer.

They never gave him a team that could get him up 30 with 6 minutes left and a ring on the line...

So its all just hate. Unfounded Dirk only hate.

How....****ing...unfair.

Another epic fail post. Did you not read my previous post? I already have said....probably over 10 times....that Dirk and the Mavs had a good enough team to win it all in 06. I have already conceded that. But that does not change the debate at all. Many of the 25 greatest players of all time have failed in the post season and NBA finals at times.

You aren't even talking about facts. Why have 28 of the last 30 NBA Champions had multiple Hall of Fame caliber players and great coaching? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT ****ING WINS TITLES MORON ****. GOD DAMN ARE YOU JUST RETARDED.

Please answer me why Dirk should buck NBA history to win a title when only one other superstar in the last 30 years has led his team to a nba title. every post you have talking about how Dirk choked in 06 is pointless. we have all already conceded that the mavs should have won that series and that Dirk's poor play was a big reason.

YOU CAN'T JUDGE HIM ON ONE FINALS PERFORMANCE. Especially after he beat the Spurs with a worse team with much less playoff experience. You people are acting as if we are saying Dirk is the best player ever. I fully agree that Duncan and KG are better. But that does not mean Dirk could not have won a title with the right team around him. You honestly don't think the Mavs would have won in 06 with Paul Pierce instead of Josh Howard or Ben Wallace instead of Dampier. Give me a ****ing break man. How do you not see the flaws in the teams built around Dirk. Bad coaching throughout his prime....and he was surrounded by high volume jump shooters that could not play defense.....and he never had a center that could score in the post or play solid post defense or protect the rim.

You keep posting about 06. My post a few posts back was only concerning the nash/dirk/finley era....in which i stand by my assertion that those teams had no chance to win in it all. I think they had a chance in 06 and 07.....but those teams were not built for the playoffs....and coaching was a major issue as well. I also love how you completely ignore the fact that Wade had the greatest finals ever against the Mavs. Why? Because they didnt have anyone that could remotely guard the perimeter, and their centers could not protect the rim without fouling. YOU CANT WIN WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO AT LEAST SLOW DOWN OTHER GREAT PLAYERS AT TIMES.

So Lebron gets a pass with his team in 07. I completely agree. But what about last year? Does he get a pass there as well? I think he should because his team sucked compared to the talent of the Lakers and Magic. They are so similar to the good mavs teams. One great player...surrounded by a bunch of regular season stars that don't quite have the toughness it takes to win in the playoffs.

WHY IS IT SO ****ING HARD TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE 2 GREAT PLAYERS TO WIN NBA TITLES? WHY HAS EVERY OTHER SUPERSTAR IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA FAILED TO WIN TITLES ON THEIR OWN EXCEPT FOR HAKEEM IN 94? THAT IS A FACT....PROVEN OVER A SAMPLE SIZE PLENTY LARGE FOR IT TO BECOME THE NORM.

Why can't you just admit you are dead wrong. It's not only about talent....it has to be the right kind of talent. You can pick apart Dirk's postseason career all you want. But the reality is that he has averaged 26 points and 11 boards in the playoffs and has been one of the best clutch players in the league over the last 9 years. Has he come up short at times? Yes. But who hasn't.

Kobe was a complete failure between the years of 04 and 08. Thats a long time to do nothing in the league mate. Lucky for Kobe he has had so many chances to win the title. Dirk has really only had one chance and he went into the playoffs and finals in 06 not only playing his opponent, but nba history as well.

But please just keep ignoring everything i say and talk about how Dirk played bad in the 06 Finals.....here's a hint....we already know that. You seem to not know what this debate is actually about sir.

[DirkNowitzki41]

^damn thats what i call ownage

[ginobli2311]

^damn that's what i call ownage.

You people clearly can't comprehend what types of teams and what types of players win in the playoffs. So if we can't even find common ground on the importance of being able to defend inside and outside in the playoffs then this debate is pointless.

There is a reason why the Suns, Mavs, and Kings of the last decade did not win titles. I have said it too many times to repeat it. Trends throughout time are there for a reason....its not a coincidence that all NBA Championship teams have a lot in common. And its not a coincidence that the teams that fall short are missing at least one of those championship elements.

But...what the hell. Lets ignore the facts. Lets ignore NBA history. Lets just all sit here and say that Dirk should have to do something nobody has really ever done. Yep....that's logical.

[Kblaze8855]

KBlaze, according to your facts this is the all-stars on teams this year 2009-2010:

Cavs--5
Celtics--5
Lakers--3
SA--5
Orlando--4
Utah--4
Portland--3
Phx---3

And there are many mediocre teams that have two all-stars. Do you honestly think that the above teams have that many all-star players on their team?
Well, I guess you do because those are the facts.


No. If I were counting everyone regardless of how far they were from being stars id have counted Howard when he were a rookie and said they had 6 in 04 and said the 07 Mavs had 5. But I didnt. I counted those reasonably close to the level they were on.

Nash was 29-30 and a 2 time all star who was the MVP the following 2 seasons. Walker was an all star the season before and put up 20/9/4 the season after(and several Mavs fans said he was their best player early in the season when he was making big shots). Jamison was a 20ppg player for 4 years before and 5 years after. He put up 25 and 8 a couple years before Dallas. He was clearly on a star level. Finley is the only one arguable and he was more productive than Ray Allen in 08. A 19ppg player on a 50+ win team. Fair to call all star level.

What you said would make sense had I actually applied that logic to the Mavs. But since I didnt count Howard in 04 or Stackhouse later....clearly I didnt. I coundted who made sense to count.

[Kblaze8855]

You aren't even talking about facts. Why have 28 of the last 30 NBA Champions had multiple Hall of Fame caliber players and great coaching? BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT ****ING WINS TITLES MORON ****. GOD DAMN ARE YOU JUST RETARDED.

Dirk had a team with 2 future hall of famers and a HOF coach. I dont think much of Nelsons style but im not gonne pretend Doc Rivers or Rudy on the Rockets are all time greats because they won with great players. Red coached for 16 years without Russell and didnt win anything. Phil won with the greatest players ever. Riley the same.

Its a players league. Great players make the legacy of great coaches not the other way around. Dirk doesnt turn into Al Harrington and Avery Johnson has a ring, the best early career record ever, and would be on his way to a possible HOF career. Players matter most in the end.



Please answer me why Dirk should buck NBA history to win a title when only one other superstar in the last 30 years has led his team to a nba title. every post you have talking about how Dirk choked in 06 is pointless. we have all already conceded that the mavs should have won that series and that Dirk's poor play was a big reason.

You ask me why he should buck history seconds before telling me he should have won? So why ask me? He should have won already because he was a ma assive choke from winning.


YOU CAN'T JUDGE HIM ON ONE FINALS PERFORMANCE.

Ive been here for years. This is the 9th season ive heard people on this forum claiming Dirk didnt have a good enough team to _____ . At this point its just swapping out a couple key words and ignoring that hes already had better shots than the vast vast majority of stars will ever get. I dont judge him off one performance. Especially when he played even worse the next season on an even better team that had people predicting they would just steamroll through the playoffs.


Especially after he beat the Spurs with a worse team with much less playoff experience. You people are acting as if we are saying Dirk is the best player ever. I fully agree that Duncan and KG are better. But that does not mean Dirk could not have won a title with the right team around him.

You honestly don't think the Mavs would have won in 06 with Paul Pierce instead of Josh Howard or Ben Wallace instead of Dampier. Give me a ****ing break man. How do you not see the flaws in the teams built around Dirk. Bad coaching throughout his prime....and he was surrounded by high volume jump shooters that could not play defense.....and he never had a center that could score in the post or play solid post defense or protect the rim.

Who said he couldnt? Anyone could win with "the right team". You give a superstar the dreamteam to support him of course he can win. The issue isnt if you can win with a perfect team because no perfect team exists. The issue when people say a guy can win...is can that guy make a flawed team win...by stepping up. All teams have a weakness or two. The true greates help them overcome them. They...say...make a shot or two when it matters. Rally the defense. Something. Anything...they dont lose to a team nearly 30 wins worse than them right after the greatest finals collapse ever just before losing in the first round with another 50 win team...then a 55(?) win team...after losing with a 50+ win team with 5 all stars before all of it. Dirk does not seem to be a player who makes a flawed team get to the promised land. After literally 9 years of being told over and over and over how he is a winner by people who ranged from respectable diehard fans to racist jackasses ready to blame anyone but Dirk(Guy named Fab something years ago...he may have in fact been Dirks mother).....

Its just getting old. Very very old. Nobody said he should win with a shitty team. But hes never had one. Hes had absurd talent. hes has solid talent and good role players and D. hes had both. Hes been as close as possible to a ring and his poor play was ma ajor factor in not winning it. He takes great team after great tea mand fails with them and then has people saying he needs this and that...

While virtually everyone who ever won had to take flawed teams they are given to do it. Or at least take them and dont fail in such spectacular fashion.

Dirk has ot have it perfect? He has to have it all? Nobody has it all. Nobody since Magic at least. But people get it done. Step up. Help others step up. Anything.

But Dirk...the guy whos wins ive had shoved down my throat more than maybe anyone the last 10 years....doesnt. HE doesnt do it when it matters. PEople will say "He had 30!". So what. Hes a HOF MVP bigman. Why shouldnt he have 30? Dirk just does not go to the level his teams have needed him to and has created a string of heartbreaking playoffs losses the likes of which ive never seen.

At some point I just dont want to hear about how great...how big a winner a guy is...when hes getitng crushed when it matters over...and over...and over...and over..and over...and over. And over. And over. And over. And over. And over.



You keep posting about 06. My post a few posts back was only concerning the nash/dirk/finley era....in which i stand by my assertion that those teams had no chance to win in it all. I think they had a chance in 06 and 07.....but those teams were not built for the playoffs....and coaching was a major issue as well. I also love how you completely ignore the fact that Wade had the greatest finals ever against the Mavs. Why? Because they didnt have anyone that could remotely guard the perimeter, and their centers could not protect the rim without fouling. YOU CANT WIN WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO AT LEAST SLOW DOWN OTHER GREAT PLAYERS AT TIMES.

So....the 7 foot MVP power forward doesnt lead great defenses that often? And he has nothing to do with it? Without Duncan and KG behind them plenty of their guards would get exposed. That Dirk doesnt hod down the D is one of the greatest points of concern people have with him. Hes a 7 foot swingman and its a problem. Your superstar bigman just shouldnt be blameless when your defense is bad. All great defense start in the paint. More now than ever because you cant touch a guy outside. Half the reason people have been saying this playero that one are better...is their defense. Dirks man to man defensive problems have been vastly overblown. Hes not a terrible defender as some say. Its a myth that should have died 6-7 years ago. But he doesnt play the kind of defense expect a solid D to be built around. Paul Pierce was not considered a good defender before KG. Ray Allen wasnt and isnt. rondo had potential but everyone was saying he and Perkins would be the weak links. KG arrives and defense comes with him. Dude is out there telking all the time and ive read again and again about how much he teaches the young guyso n D.

Ive mentioned it before but ill do it again. I saw a game where late...like...4th quarter. 2-3 minutes left. Rondo gets a bad switch on a guy he just couldnt guard. Dont remember who. Wade perhaps? Some star. Rondo is looking like a deer in headlights. KG steps off his man directs perkins where to be. He literally kneels down and knocks on the floor letting him know where his helps was. Talking to him all the time. Dude blows by rondo with Rondo directing him left. KG meets him at the rim and blocks it. Recovers the rebound.

Its a minor thing but..it isnt. Good defense isnt just good players. Its a mentality. And Dirk doesnt and never has had it. Not to the extent that most players who overcome really flawed teams must.


So Lebron gets a pass with his team in 07. I completely agree. But what about last year? Does he get a pass there as well? I think he should because his team sucked compared to the talent of the Lakers and Magic. They are so similar to the good mavs teams. One great player...surrounded by a bunch of regular season stars that don't quite have the toughness it takes to win in the playoffs.

You see me calling Dirk out for losses where he played as well as Lebron last year? I said 03 wasnt his fault. I didnt say this year was his fault. I didnt say 05 was his fault. I said it was bad he got so outplayed by his sidekick. But I didnt say its his fault. Lebron was out there getting like 38/9/8 or something on 50% shooting with his sidekick a no show. Besides...Lebron isnt a 12 year veteran 31 year old. If he fails at the rate dirk has ill say so. But I dont know the future.

[Kblaze8855]

WHY IS IT SO ****ING HARD TO UNDERSTAND THAT YOU NEED TO HAVE 2 GREAT PLAYERS TO WIN NBA TITLES? WHY HAS EVERY OTHER SUPERSTAR IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA FAILED TO WIN TITLES ON THEIR OWN EXCEPT FOR HAKEEM IN 94? THAT IS A FACT....PROVEN OVER A SAMPLE SIZE PLENTY LARGE FOR IT TO BECOME THE NORM.

Hakeem in 94. Duncan in 03 and 05(If Nash wasnt great 3 months before an MVP season at 30...Tony Parker wasnt great in 05). The 04 Pistons had no great players. This is just lately. Walton did it without multiple HOF players. So did Rick Barry. Dennis Johnson. And considering how few teams have actually won in the last 35 years(like 24-25 are the same core team winning more than once) its a good percentage that did it without a bunch of superstars.

Shit Shaq in 2006 put up Haslem like numbers in the finals. Shaq stopped being truly great. He had moments. But he wasnt shaq anymore. Wade won that title with Antione Walker the second leading playoff scorer. He won with his second leading scorer...the 4th or 5th best player from a team Dirk lost i nthe 1st round with. But that isnt really the point. Dirk is just too old and has had too many chances to keep talking what he has not had.

Dirk fans crying over what hes had. Look at Tmac. Look at Iverson. Look at Drob pre Duncan. Look at KG going out with Troy Hudson and Wally. Look at the teams Pierce had for years. Kidd working with rookie RJ, Kmart, and Kieth van horn. Dirk is one of..if not the least justifiable "But look at his team!" guy in modern history. Guy has had more talent and better chances to win than anyone in NBA history who never won. Possible exception being Baylor. Maybe Ewing in 94 too since he was literally a jumper from winning it all in game 6. But Dirk had the best chance really to win a title anyone ever got and couldnt hold on to. Eh should have been up 3-0. Or helped his 6th best record of all time team get past the first round the next year.

But he didnt. He did not come through. You arent supporsed to get 15 chances to win it all. But you get a chance when you get lucky. Dirk didnt take advantage. Im done calling people winners when they fall short with 10 straight really good teams. Guy has had one of the most laughable string of playoff losses(laughable for any number of reasons) ever. Easily the most laughable aside from Malone in my life.

And im tired of "But he needed____". You know who needed help? Tmac working with Drew Gooden and Pat Garrity.

Dirk had 5 all stars with him being one of the 2 who would win the next 3 MVPs. Dirk had trios superstars dream of. Dirk had hard nosed defenses and good defensive coaching with roleplayers stepping up dropping 30+ in the finals just needing him to not fade. Dirk has had too much...to make the story always what he has not had.

Dirk is the least justified use of "But he didnt have the team" ive ever seen and im sick of hearing it. Tmac didnt have the team. Ai didnt have the team. Kidd on the Nets didnt have the team. Mitch Richmond idnt have the team. Dont talk to me about nothaving the right mix of all stars and hall of famers. Dont talk to me about defensive issues for a team with a HOF 7 footer who doesnt play like it. Dont talk to me about what he needs.

You make due with flawed teams and take advantage of the few chances you have to win.

This isnt Glen Rice trying to take Vlade and Dell curry to the finals. Its Dirk. The guy who has been given mroe to work with than anyone Ican think of who didnt win. The guy who could literally have been a FT or a couple stops from winning it all.

I dont care what you think he didnth ave. 99% of people never had what he did. And some of those who didnt...won anyway.

Great players make teams look great. They make coaches look great. They make the best of a bad situation. And Dirk has never had anything close to a bad situation. Not since 2001. Great players just get it done.

Losers make excuses. Winners make it happen.*

*props for anyone who gets the reference

[Kblaze8855]

And...I believe im sick of this discuaaion again for a year. continue without me if you must. Never know....Dirk may be reading this. Not like he has to practice or anything just because its the second round of the playoffs and he had a 55 win team. Dirk is one of the few who isnt all that likely to be busy under those circumstances....

[Mikaiel]

Wade won that title with Antione Walker the second leading playoff scorer.

???

Shaq : 18.4 points
Walker : 13.3 points

[Kblaze8855]

Yea I was thinking finals. I rarely proofread. Gets too long to do all that. I wanna say shaq went off once or twice. Last game vs the Bulls especially. But Shaq had stopped being Shaq. He was no greater than he was last year wit hthe suns.

[Mikaiel]

But Shaq had stopped being Shaq.

He did have some monster games though. He averaged 21.7 points, 65.5 FG%, 10.5 rebounds, 2.3 blocks against the Pistons in the ECF. He even had a 30/20 game against Chicago.

[Kblaze8855]

Thats the one I meant. Last one vs the Bulls. But he was simply not Shaq when they won. Shaq...doesnt put up 17, 5, 16, 17,18, and 9 points in the finals.

[ginobli2311]

KBlaze

We just completely disagree and thats ok. However, I do think you are completely missing the point on how important defense is to win NBA titles. All the teams you referenced had great defenses. Wade could be Wade because he had shaq and zo protecting the rim in the 06 finals. You think he would have been able to score 40 a game if he had to anchor the defense and rebound as well?

Dirk didn't need a dream team. He needed a defensive minded team with another legit star. Nash/Finley/Dirk would have definitely won titles if they were surrounded by the right parts. Meaning a center that was tough, could rebound, block shots, and score a little and a few other hustle type players that could defend a bit. But all the mavs ever got was a bunch of all-star players that were very one dimensional and in my opinion that doesn't win...EVER. You have to play great defense to win in the playoffs.

That is just my opinion....although I can't think of an NBA champion that wasn't very very good defensively.

You keep referencing Duncan. Duncan is one of the 8 best players of all time. He's probably the best two way player other than jordan in the history of the league. His ability to dominate a game on both ends just does not come around very often. He is a far better player than Dirk.....so I don't get the point.

Duncan's flaw was that he wasn't great down the stretch of games (not really his fault but mainly due to his position) and he's a pretty bad free throw shooter in the 4th qtr. So the Spurs got players that could help out down the stretch of games and make big shots and big plays. This complemented Duncan's game and resulted in titles.

The Mavs did not surround Dirk with the type of talent he needed. Ben Wallace would have been better off playing with the Mavs than Dirk. Dirk did not need more high volume shooters or soft centers or soft small forwards. He needed players that could bring toughness and defense.

So that is where we really disagree. You could put Nash, Ray Allen, Bosh, Amare, Dampier, Deron Williams, and Carmelo all on a team this year and they would not win the title because they would not be able to defend. You have to build a team the right way. The Lakers, Magic, and Celtics have all been built the right way over the last 3 years.

Defense wins....not a bunch of "all-stars" that put up stats with very little value towards winning.

[D3vIrGiNiz3r]

Most of the board disagrees with that statement. In fact, most blame him for the losses moreso than anyone else on the Mavs... even when Dirk actually does quite well.

Yup. Makes me sick to my stomach. Dirk plays awesome and is the only good player on his team the last 10 years and gets blamed for everything.

Dirk scores 50pts a game in the playoffs and loses because his teammates suck and who gets the blame according to numbskulls like KBlaze? Dirk. Hilarious.

Spurs don't look too good when they have to play a team with more than one good player.