Suns coach says Kobe is the best closer in the history of basketball, better than MJ

[Extempo]

Phoenix Suns head coach Alvin Gentry has a lot of respect for Kobe Bryant and told The Arizona Republic Friday that the Lakers guard is the best closer ever in the NBA.

"He's the best closer in the history of the game if you ask me," Gentry said. "Yeah, that is including Michael Jordan. I just think what he's done this year, to have six game-winning shots that come on the last possession of the game, I don't know if anybody has ever done that.

"If that's the case, we have to try to make somebody else be that closer. That's not to say that he'll give it up. I've seen him make it over three guys, too. But as far as we're concerned, we have to try to get the ball out of his hands some kind of way."

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/features/rumors?date=20100313&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2ffeatures%2frumors%3fdate%3d20100313

Somebody who speaks the truth. Phil Jackson also said that he would go with Kobe over MJ if he had to pick someone to take the last shot. Kobe already has more game-winners than MJ did throughout his career. It's about time people start taking notice. MJ dickriders like Charles Barkley are threatened that Kobe could be considered better than MJ in one category and that's why they quickly tried to dismiss Kobe's game-winners as lucky. People who matter, aka coaches in the NBA, know who's the clutchest and they'll tell it like it is. MJ can't be the best at every category. MJ dickriders need to accept reality.

[ShaqAttack3234]

The term closer is dumb anyway, but Jordan was the better clutch player anyway.

[Niquesports]

Somebody who speaks the truth. Phil Jackson also said that he would go with Kobe over MJ if he had to pick someone to take the last shot. Kobe already has more game-winners than MJ did throughout his career. It's about time people start taking notice. MJ dickriders like Charles Barkley are threatened that Kobe could be considered better than MJ in one category and that's why they quickly tried to dismiss Kobe's game-winners as lucky. People who matter, aka coaches in the NBA, know who's the clutchest and they'll tell it like it is. MJ can't be the best at every category. MJ dickriders need to accept reality.


I would say Kobe coming straight out of High School is gonna hurt his legacy.. HIs basketball years will soon catch up to him which would prevent him from winning 2 more rings which I think he would need to pass Jordan as GOAT. His first 3 as the clear support player is nice but its kinda like Kevin Mchale and James Worthy, not gonna place him with the elite. I see Kobe playing at this level for about 4 more years max.Jordan has something Kobe doesnt thats he was the clear best player of his era Kobe has 2 maybe 3 players that can rightfuly claim being the best today.

[ProfessorMurder]

The term closer is dumb anyway, but Jordan was the better clutch player anyway.

You don't need to hit game winners when you're going 72-10.

[KAJ=GOAT]

I would say Kobe coming straight out of High School is gonna hurt his legacy.. HIs basketball years will soon catch up to him which would prevent him from winning 2 more rings which I think he would need to pass Jordan as GOAT. His first 3 as the clear support player is nice but its kinda like Kevin Mchale and James Worthy, not gonna place him with the elite. I see Kobe playing at this level for about 4 more years max.Jordan has something Kobe doesnt thats he was the clear best player of his era Kobe has 2 maybe 3 players that can rightfuly claim being the best today.

What makes 6 rings some magical number? Because Michael Jordan has six? What if he had 7? Would that be the magical number? Or how about 8 or 9? Why is the greatness of future stars dependent upon how many rings Jordan won?



Russell has 11, in thirteen years.

Last I checked, 11>>>6.

[TimeConfidence]

This isn't baseball, there's no such thing as a closer.

[DuMa]

he might be the best closer for the last minute of the game. but too bad he still sucks compared to jordan for the first 47 minutes.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Last I checked, 11>>>6.
In an 8 team league?

:oldlol:

That's why it isn't as readily mentioned as Jordan's 6.

[Niquesports]

What makes 6 rings some magical number? Because Michael Jordan has six? What if he had 7? Would that be the magical number? Or how about 8 or 9? Why is the greatness of future stars dependent upon how many rings Jordan won?



Russell has 11, in thirteen years.

Last I checked, 11>>>6.


The number 6 is magical because that would be 3 he earned as his teams best player it would place him past Magic and would equal the total of MJ. I dnt think he needs to pass Jordan as I said with all his basketball years I dont think he has it in him to win more than 2 more. Russell will always get talked about when talking about Greatest team player or best Center but GOAT is usually saved for more offensive players .As far as Kobe legecy based on Jordan its called passing the torch if LBJ wants to be next he has to start winning this season his basketball years are up there also.

[EricForman]

Kobe could very well be a better CLOSER than Jordan because, as JA Adande put it so nicely, Kobe's probably the best "bad shot maker" ever.

Now please, please let this thread end and dont let the usual idiots come in and say how Jordan is overrated and how he didnt impact teams the way Wilt did.

Please just end this nonsense. Yeah Kobe is maybe a better closer, like how Chauncey Billup is a better closer than Tim Duncan. THE END

On a serious note, check out the OP and the way he gets all offensive from the start and attack a certain base. Then, if Jordan fans come here a bit offended, the goon squad like Roundball and KAJ will say we're so insecure and all that.

So let's not even give those idiots that hard on. Kobe could be a better closer, according to Alvin Gentry. Yes that is right.

Kobes definitely a top two shooting guard!

[TimeConfidence]

In an 8 team league?

:oldlol:

That's why it isn't as readily mentioned as Jordan's 6.
Less teams = more stacked, it's a two-way street.

[Indian guy]

There are only 3 guys in this conversation - MJ, Bird & Kobe. I don't think it's outrageous to proclaim one as the best of the lot. But this thread isn't going to be pretty.

[Samurai Swoosh]

Less teams = more stacked, it's a two-way street.
But that's not true, in theory yes. Maybe if that was now, yes. But basketball was still in its infancy stages at the professional level. And the only truly STACKED team in that whopping 8 man league. WAS the Boston Celtics.

:oldlol:

They had like 2 of the 3 top players in the game leading their team, and countless other great secondary / role players.

[TimeConfidence]

But that's not true. Maybe if that was now, yes. But basketball was still in its infancy stages at the professional level. And the only truly STACKED team in that whopping 8 man league. WAS the Boston Celtics.

:oldlol:

They had like 2 of the 3 top players in the game leading their team, and countless other great secondary / role players.
Pretty sure there was a HOF player in each team back then even Wilt had some HOF players, people just blindly don't realize this.

[97 bulls]

You don't need to hit game winners when you're going 72-10.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: exactly. how often were jordns teams in positions in which jordan had to bail them out? those bulls team were dominant

[catch24]

jordan shoots like 55% on such shots, while kobe shoots 29% and he is a better closer? makes little sense imo..:hammerhead:

Yup. People easily forget, or just did not watch.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan is the better closer and I honestly don't think it's that close. Last second shots are one thing, but "closer" implies like the last 2-4 minutes depending. No way is Kobe better at closing out a game than Jordan. Kobe has not scored 15-20+ points over the final 5-8 minutes of a game nearly as frequently as Jordan has; in fact, he's more likely to shoot you out of a game than do that. Let's not even start talking about clutch rebounding, defensive plays, or passing, because it's not even close there.

And even at last second shots, Kobe is getting insanely overrated because of what he's done this year. Prior to this year he's what, like 25% on such shots over the last 6-7 seasons? Fact is, Jordan never played in nearly as many close games as Kobe has this season. Good on Kobe for making the most of these situations, but he's getting way overhyped for it. Kobe is a top 3-4 clutch player, though, along with MJ/Bird/West.

[GollyImSoGully]

Jordan is the better closer and I honestly don't think it's that close. Last second shots are one thing, but "closer" implies like the last 2-4 minutes depending. No way is Kobe better at closing out a game than Jordan. Kobe has not scored 15-20+ points over the final 5-8 minutes of a game nearly as frequently as Jordan has; in fact, he's more likely to shoot you out of a game than do that.

And even at last second shots, Kobe is getting insanely overrated because of what he's done this year. Prior to this year he's what, like 25% on such shots over the last 6-7 seasons? Fact is, Jordan never played in nearly as many close games as Kobe has this season. Good on Kobe for making the most of these situations, but he's getting way overhyped for it. Kobe is a top 3-4 clutch player, though, along with MJ/Bird/West.

Coaches opinions > a geek who centers his whole life around MJ and Kobe

Hence the youtube name: Jordanlover23
Realgm name: JordanForever

Sad becasue you're 32 years old that stays up t'ill the morning hoping Kobe fails knowing damn well you have to work. Life isn't fair is it Loki?

[Samurai Swoosh]

Pretty sure there was a HOF player in each team back then even Wilt had some HOF players, people just blindly don't realize this.
For its time, yes they were granted that many HOF'ers. Still doesn't change the fact the Celtics who won 11 rings played in an 8 team league, were led by two of the three best players in the league, and had an utterly stacked team.

[Younggrease]

Yup. People easily forget, or just did not watch.

I guarantee you he didnt shot 55% on such shots...and you obiously didnt watch a lot of Kobe's misses where he was put in situations were he had no chance at a shot going in....

[Poodle]

its silly to me how the media and nba coaches/players ride kobe's nuts so hard when they're 3 yrs late. its just a joke how history will end up reinvented like kobe was at his prime now even tho he has nowhere near the athleticism and penetration he used to. f'in stat arguers :rolleyes:

and i swear he gets accredited for so much of the lakers success i don't blame his teammates for being bitter, especially when they get blamed for all of the failure.

[97 bulls]

i think kobe is the flaor of the month. once he starts his decline, hell settle out of the top 10. most people put him there cuz they see him with 4 mvps and 7 rings. thats not gonna happen

[Allstar24]

jordan shoots like 55% on such shots, while kobe shoots 29% and he is a better closer? makes little sense imo..:hammerhead:
Did you just pull that out of your ass? I know for a fact those percentages are greatly exaggerated, for both players. It's amusing to see how far groupies will go to protect MJ's legacy.

[97 bulls]

I guarantee you he didnt shot 55% on such shots...and you obiously didnt watch a lot of Kobe's misses where he was put in situations were he had no chance at a shot going in....
im curious at the clutch shot %s too.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Coaches opinions > a geek who centers his whole life around MJ and Kobe

Hence the youtube name: Jordanlover23
Realgm name: JordanForever

Sad becasue you're 32 years old that stays up t'ill the morning hoping Kobe fails knowing damn well you have to work. Life isn't fair is it Loki?

I'm a night person, dickhead. I'm always up. Nice job on the stalking, btw.

[catch24]

I guarantee you he didnt shot 55% on such shots...and you obiously didnt watch a lot of Kobe's misses where he was put in situations were he had no chance at a shot going in....

I've watched nearly every single game of his career. Prior to this season, he was overrated in the clutch (last second shots) -- sure he somehow always found a clean look, but he was still missing below the leagues average.

[YAWN]

was gonna stay out of the thread til i see some of these jordan loving morons come in here and say kobe sucks :oldlol:

insecure ****s.

jordan and kobe have been the only players that i have ever watched that i assume the shot is going in whenever they get a clean look at the end of the games. I travel a lot and watch laker games in many cities bars so I know that Kobe has that effect on opposing teams fans as well.

oh and Loki with the "its not even close" :roll:

[GollyImSoGully]

I'm a night person, dickhead. I'm always up. Nice job on the stalking, btw.

Right, a night person when it comes to Laker games. Not stalking since you posted your youtube account and not hard to find your RealGM account since all you do is copy paste your posts from here to there or vice versa. JordanLover...bruh? Must lead a sad pathetic life that you need to be a stan for someone that's retired at your age.

[Younggrease]

I've watched nearly every single game of his career. Prior to this season, he was overrated in the clutch (last second shots) -- sure he somehow always found a clean look, but he was still missing below the leagues average.

He didnt always find a clean look because he was doubled for 3 straight years in the clutch while playing with bums.

I guarantee if they break the stat down by year and showed his percentages minus the 3 years where he played with bums, he percentages are at the top of the heap all time. Kobe was shooting over two people because Kwame Brown and Chris Mihm and Smush were never guarded.

[catch24]

I've read through different sources that Jordan did infact hit 50% of his clutch shots. Just wish they kept track of those type of stats then (bbreference, 82games etc).

[Fatal9]

I guarantee you he didnt shot 55% on such shots...and you obiously didnt watch a lot of Kobe's misses where he was put in situations were he had no chance at a shot going in....
Not only that but Kobe's numbers include game tying situations too (which is when you have to pull of for a 3 while being down 3, and those hurt %s tremendously). I guarantee you I can come up with more missed shots than the 20-25 that is usually said...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140520

^ I made that thread a while ago because of the ridiculous clutch numbers we were seeing of him. it's funny, literally not even hard, when you combine it with what you remember and a a mere google of "jordan" "misses" can yield hundreds of results. I should continue adding to that thread, but I ran out of characters, might have to re-make it and reserve the first 3-4 posts of the thread.

[EricForman]

man... no matter what, this kobe fans vs jordan fans will never stop.

at least jordan fans are dissing kobe, while kobe fans are more concentrated on dissing the jordan fans.

ISH is so done....

[GollyImSoGully]

man... no matter what, this kobe fans vs jordan fans will never stop.

at least jordan fans are dissing kobe, while kobe fans are more concentrated on dissing the jordan fans.

ISH is so done....

Very ironic. Did you read your last few posts these past few days? Jordan fans are delusional.

[Big#50]

Remember that steal on Malone? Let me know when Kobe does something like that. That's a closer.

[Niquesports]

For its time, yes they were granted that many HOF'ers. Still doesn't change the fact the Celtics who won 11 rings played in an 8 team league, were led by two of the three best players in the league, and had an utterly stacked team.


I would say its harder to win 11 titles against only the top 8 teams that it is agaisnt 30 teams with talent spread out. Also I wouldn't call Cousy one of the 3 best players in the league at that time. Winning 11 titles I dont care if there are only 4 teams is unreal

[catch24]

He didnt always find a clean look because he was doubled for 3 straight years in the clutch while playing with bums.

I guarantee if they break the stat down by year and showed his percentages minus the 3 years where he played with bums, he percentages are at the top of the heap all time. Kobe was shooting over two people because Kwame Brown and Chris Mihm and Smush were never guarded.

He only had a few GW's that I recall during 2006 (vs. Clippers, Nuggets, and Suns, just going by memory, you're right, he was doubled heavily). 2004 He was getting a lot of single coverage (vs. Detroit in the Finals he was defended by Prince if I'm not mistaken -- iso -- the Grizzlies in Memphis, defended by Battier -- iso).

[Abraham Lincoln]

man... no matter what, this kobe fans vs jordan fans will never stop.

at least jordan fans are dissing kobe, while kobe fans are more concentrated on dissing the jordan fans.


True, but even sadder is how all seem to collectively join forces & trash the Russell/Chamberlain era.

[GollyImSoGully]

Remember that steal on Malone? Let me know when Kobe does something like that. That's a closer.

Didn't Kobe at 21 take over in game 4 against Indiana? That's not being a closer....?

Jordan at 21 was doing what exactly?

[thejumpa]

If Jordan fans are delusional, then Kobe fans are delusional. All these threads are are pissing matches that go round and round and round until someone gets tired of throwing insults. Yall need to grow the **** up. I bet you most of the cats on here never even saw MJ play. Yet they throw these stats out here like it's gospel. SMH...

Furthermore, how can you start being a fan of Kobe but you aren't a fan of MJ? Dude has basically payed homage his whole career yet people always try to create this "Kobe fans vs MJ fans" debate. Get a life.

[EricForman]

Very ironic. Did you read your last few posts these past few days? Jordan fans are delusional.

Even if I diss your silly ass, it's in response. Check out the OP starting the flame immediately with the thread. Why do the mods allow this? ISH has always had trash talking but back then it was done with skills, knowledge and creativity.

Now it's a broken record. Stan? dickriders?

Please.

And I'm hardly insecure. No matter what the 5 of you guys say, Jordani s still considered GOAT by most sports writer/former athletes/current athletes/ coaches, etc.

[Big#50]

Didn't Kobe at 21 take over in game 4 against Indiana? That's not being a closer....?

Jordan at 21 was doing what exactly?
Hey, little cockrider MJ>Kobe.

[Phong]

http://nsa15.casimages.com/img/2010/03/13/100313083749318376.gif
"Kobe's the best closer of all-time you hear me? YOU HEAR ME?" :rant


:pimp:

[Samurai Swoosh]

I would say its harder to win 11 titles against only the top 8 teams that it is agaisnt 30 teams with talent spread out. Also I wouldn't call Cousy one of the 3 best players in the league at that time. Winning 11 titles I dont care if there are only 4 teams is unreal
Basketball talent wasn't as good top to bottom as it is now. More competition breeds better talent. LOL @ acting like those 8 teams were filled to the brim with talent.

[32jazz]

Coaches opinions > a geek who centers his whole life around MJ and Kobe

Hence the youtube name: Jordanlover23
Realgm name: JordanForever

Sad becasue you're 32 years old that stays up t'ill the morning hoping Kobe fails knowing damn well you have to work. Life isn't fair is it Loki?

:oldlol: Damn

I would personally take either Kobe/MJ/Bird:confusedshrug:

"Better" shouldn't be taken as to mean that no other NBA Player in history even belongs in the discussion.

Though Kobe has better range & can get off seemingly impossible shots MJ did(as Phil Jackson stated) had a knack for getting an easier bucket.

Bird tended to shoot his team into & out of games as well(jacking 3's) which pissed off McHale with whom he reportedly had a distant/cold relationship.

I wouldn't spend too much time debating it either way.

[EricForman]

True, but even sadder is how all seem to collectively join forces & trash the Russell/Chamberlain era.

Not really Abe. The Kobe fans have resorted to pretending to be fans of Kareem, Wilt, Pip and Russell for the sake of arguing against Jordan.

[GollyImSoGully]

Hey, little cockrider MJ>Kobe.

Advantage: Gully

:oldlol:

[GollyImSoGully]

espn had multiple article on this lately...
Kobe's % actually increased this year from the 25% it was at prior to 09-10. it also is his % in the last ten years so it doesn't include his choke jobs at the beginning of his career.

melo also shot a much higher clip than kobe at 46%.

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/14218/new-numbers-on-kobe-bryant-in-crunch-time

So you're taking stats from a site that says Kobe is: #



Bryant has made 26 of the 89 potential game tying or game-winning field goals he has shot over the last decade. That's 29.2%, which is slightly above League average.

He has 26 GAME winners ALONE. So where do his game typing field goals go? :hammerhead:

[Big#50]

Kobe got blocked by ****ing Hedo on a game winning shot in the finals. Hedo ****ing Turkeygooh.

[Cangri]

Kobe got blocked by ****ing Hedo on a game winning shot in the finals. Hedo ****ing Turkeygooh.
But Hedo is MJ clutch.

[qrich]

Kobe got blocked by ****ing Hedo on a game winning shot in the finals. Hedo ****ing Turkeygooh.

Hedo's the Turkish MJ, so does that mean that MJ blocked Kobe on a game winning shot attempt in the finals...hmm :confusedshrug:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Right, a night person when it comes to Laker games. Not stalking since you posted your youtube account and not hard to find your RealGM account since all you do is copy paste your posts from here to there or vice versa. JordanLover...bruh? Must lead a sad pathetic life that you need to be a stan for someone that's retired at your age.

No, a night person in general. Check my post history and you'll see me making posts on here and elsewhere not on Laker game nights. And I'm (recently) 31, not 32 fwiw.

[Knoe Itawl]

So playoffs don't count anymore? Interesting.

[catch24]

He has 26 GAME winners ALONE. So where do his game typing field goals go?



Bryant has made 26 of the 89 potential game tying or game-winning field goals

It clearly says they are both added.

[magnax1]

I think thats fair to say. Hes on the same level as Bird Jordan and Miller for me now.

[Big#50]

Hedo's the Turkish MJ, so does that mean that MJ blocked Kobe on a game winning shot attempt in the finals...hmm :confusedshrug:
Just means he's not that great of a closer. That'd be like MJ getting blocked by Hornacek in game 6.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Not really Abe. The Kobe fans have resorted to pretending to be fans of Kareem, Wilt, Pip and Russell for the sake of arguing against Jordan.
In bold being key. Otherwise they could not care any less about the 60's. Though of course any wise man sees that their true love for Jabbar & Pippen is unconditional.

[GollyImSoGully]

http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/5899/kobexk4.jpg

[Allstar24]

So playoffs don't count anymore? Interesting.
Kobe is 50% in game winning shots in the playoffs, according to 82 games.

[catch24]

Kobe is 50% in game winning shots in the playoffs, according to 82 games.

On how many attempts/makes?

Can we ban the f*cking moron pasting humongous pics?

[phoenix18]

Kobe is 50% in game winning shots in the playoffs, according to 82 games.
You know damn well that doesnt include every year of his career.

[GollyImSoGully]

You know damn well that doesnt include every year of his career.

Huh...why not? Unless you have actual proof Kobe missed more than 50% of his shots in the playoffs...which you don't.

[NBASTATMAN]

Somebody who speaks the truth. Phil Jackson also said that he would go with Kobe over MJ if he had to pick someone to take the last shot. Kobe already has more game-winners than MJ did throughout his career. It's about time people start taking notice. MJ dickriders like Charles Barkley are threatened that Kobe could be considered better than MJ in one category and that's why they quickly tried to dismiss Kobe's game-winners as lucky. People who matter, aka coaches in the NBA, know who's the clutchest and they'll tell it like it is. MJ can't be the best at every category. MJ dickriders need to accept reality.



First Phil never said that.. He said that Kobe was better at making crazy shots at the end of games than Mj..

As for the best closer I will wait till Kobe hits one game winner that actually means something... MJ has closed out series with his game winners.. Kobe has had chances to close out series and has thrown up air ballS... Mj has closed out 3 series on Game winning shots...


Lastly in 1997 or 1998 MJ stated he had missed 26 game winning shots IN A COMMERCIAL...... Try remembering another one he missed from that point on and add to his total OF MISSES... For anyone who knows HOW TO DO math this will pretty much shut this CONVERSATION down....


Melo hit 6 game winners in a season as well....

[GollyImSoGully]

First Phil never said that.. He said that Kobe was better at making crazy shots at the end of games than Mj..

As for the best closer I will wait till Kobe hits one game winner that actually means something... MJ has closed out series with his game winners.. Kobe has had chances to close out series and has thrown up air ballS... Mj has closed out 3 series on Game winning shots...


Lastly in 1997 or 1998 MJ stated he had missed 26 game winning shots IN A COMMERCIAL...... Try remembering another one he missed from that point on and add to his total OF MISSES... For anyone who knows HOW TO DO math this will pretty much shut this CONVERSATION down....


Melo hit 6 game winners in a season as well....

Way to make sh!t up, Melo never had 6 game winners

[Allstar24]

On how many attempts/makes?

Can we ban the f*cking moron pasting humongous pics?
He's 4-8, tied with LeBron.



You know damn well that doesnt include every year of his career.
Well they started keeping track since the '03 season, I guess that's as far back as they go.

[Duncan21formvp]

Somebody who speaks the truth. Phil Jackson also said that he would go with Kobe over MJ if he had to pick someone to take the last shot. Kobe already has more game-winners than MJ did throughout his career. It's about time people start taking notice. MJ dickriders like Charles Barkley are threatened that Kobe could be considered better than MJ in one category and that's why they quickly tried to dismiss Kobe's game-winners as lucky. People who matter, aka coaches in the NBA, know who's the clutchest and they'll tell it like it is. MJ can't be the best at every category. MJ dickriders need to accept reality.

He is up there, but he isn't the most clutch ever. You gotta make them when they matter most. You gotta hit them to win series. With the series tied and you down 1 point or 2 points in the deciding game and you hit the buzzer beater and win the game, that is clutch.

Or hitting them in the finals also applies.

Just because you hit a ton in the regular season don't mean anything. Gotta hit them when they matter most.

[Fatal9]

Again...Kobe's numbers include game tying shots, which you are much more likely to miss because you attempt so many of them when you are down 3 in the final seconds. Jordan's only include game winning situations (which is almost always down one or tie game), and I still would like a detailed citation of those percentages. I would take Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Kareem...in that order to take game winning shot (I would actually take Kareem first but it's much easier to get perimeter players the ball in final seconds).

[falc39]

You don't need to hit game winners when you're going 72-10.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[DuMa]

Way to make sh!t up, Melo never had 6 game winners

ESPN. look it up last year and respond back....

[NBASTATMAN]

For the 2005-2006 season, he made five game-winning shots in the last five seconds: at Houston on January 8, 2006; at home versus the Phoenix Suns on January 10, 2006; at Minnesota on February 24, 2006; at Indiana on March 15, 2006; at home versus the Los Angeles Lakers on April 6, 2006 - all were jumpers while shot against Minnesota was a three point field goal - also made a shot in the final seconds to force overtime vs. the Dallas Mavericks on January 6, 2006 and made shots in the final 22 seconds against the Cleveland Cavaliers on January 18, 2006 and the Philadelphia 76ers on March 9, 2006 which gave the Nuggets leads they would never lose.


Kobe is 7-14 game winning or tying shots this year... Misses are at okc, bucks, dallas, cavs, orlando, toronto...

[catch24]

Kobe is 7-14 game winning or tying shots this year... Misses are at okc, bucks, dallas, cavs, orlando, toronto...

What are they on just game winning situations?

[chazzy]

To those who think he's only a slightly above average clutch player.. if your team is up against the Lakers and it's a one possession game, are you confident your team has won because you think "Kobe only has a 25% chance of making something here?" Whether he's as good as Jordan or Bird for the last shot is debatable, but to suggest he's not even elite is just wrong.

[phoenix18]

Huh...why not? Unless you have actual proof Kobe missed more than 50% of his shots in the playoffs...which you don't.
:oldlol: Banned.


Well they started keeping track since the '03 season, I guess that's as far back as they go.

Now you know why.

[xcesswee]

First off, let's get one thing out of the way - Gully is a moron.

Now onto the topic. Right now IMO kobe is the most feared player in the clutch. But right not i don't think he's on the level of jordan in terms of clutch. Why? Because think of all the big shots Jordan has made in the clutch. Most of them are in huge pressure situations in the playoffs (98 game 6 jazz, game 5 cleveland, etc etc.) I just think jordan has done it so much more than kobe in games that actually matter.

[mendozatheman]

Kobe could very well be a better CLOSER than Jordan because, as JA Adande put it so nicely, Kobe's probably the best "bad shot maker" ever.

Now please, please let this thread end and dont let the usual idiots come in and say how Jordan is overrated and how he didnt impact teams the way Wilt did.

Please just end this nonsense. Yeah Kobe is maybe a better closer, like how Chauncey Billup is a better closer than Tim Duncan. THE END

On a serious note, check out the OP and the way he gets all offensive from the start and attack a certain base. Then, if Jordan fans come here a bit offended, the goon squad like Roundball and KAJ will say we're so insecure and all that.

So let's not even give those idiots that hard on. Kobe could be a better closer, according to Alvin Gentry. Yes that is right.

Kobes definitely a top two shooting guard!


Wow now you're talking after all these years!! By the way wassup! :rockon:

[KAJ=GOAT]

He is up there, but he isn't the most clutch ever. You gotta make them when they matter most. You gotta hit them to win series. With the series tied and you down 1 point or 2 points in the deciding game and you hit the buzzer beater and win the game, that is clutch.

Or hitting them in the finals also applies.

Just because you hit a ton in the regular season don't mean anything. Gotta hit them when they matter most.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIOTo-4dZZU

[Knoe Itawl]

First off, let's get one thing out of the way - Gully is a moron.

Now onto the topic. Right now IMO kobe is the most feared player in the clutch. But right not i don't think he's on the level of jordan in terms of clutch. Why? Because think of all the big shots Jordan has made in the clutch. Most of them are in huge pressure situations in the playoffs (98 game 6 jazz, game 5 cleveland, etc etc.) I just think jordan has done it so much more than kobe in games that actually matter.

Exactly. And that's the point Kobe Fanatics ignore, and people like Alvin Gentry don't realize. Give me Jordan a hundred times out of a hundred for a last second shot in the playoffs. Kobe can make all the regular season shots he wants to, but the playoffs are what counts the most.

[Andrei89]

Somebody who speaks the truth IMHO

fixed

[RazorBaLade]

Exactly. And that's the point Kobe Fanatics ignore, and people like Alvin Gentry don't realize. Give me Jordan a hundred times out of a hundred for a last second shot in the playoffs. Kobe can make all the regular season shots he wants to, but the playoffs are what counts the most.

Because Kobe has never made a great last second shot in the playoffs right?

[stephanieg]

The term closer is dumb anyway, but Jordan was the better clutch player anyway.

The funny thing is I only started hearing this on TNT several years ago to promote Kyra Sedgwick's The Closer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Closer). Then the term spread to ESPN. Now everyone assumes it comes from baseball or something.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Jordan is the better closer and I honestly don't think it's that close. Last second shots are one thing, but "closer" implies like the last 2-4 minutes depending. No way is Kobe better at closing out a game than Jordan. Kobe has not scored 15-20+ points over the final 5-8 minutes of a game nearly as frequently as Jordan has; in fact, he's more likely to shoot you out of a game than do that. Let's not even start talking about clutch rebounding, defensive plays, or passing, because it's not even close there.

And even at last second shots, Kobe is getting insanely overrated because of what he's done this year. Prior to this year he's what, like 25% on such shots over the last 6-7 seasons? Fact is, Jordan never played in nearly as many close games as Kobe has this season. Good on Kobe for making the most of these situations, but he's getting way overhyped for it. Kobe is a top 3-4 clutch player, though, along with MJ/Bird/West.

Thank you. :cheers: Awesome post. These morons don't understand the concept of "closer". The guy's "choked" harder than most other superstars I've seen. To me, clutch is more than just hitting a game winner, hell anyone can do that if given the opportunity. Vlade Divac was right in a way when he said anyone could've thrown in that Robert Horry 3 in 2002. Clutch means taking over the game in 4th quarter. It's more of a choke to me if you become invisible during the 4th quarter than if you miss a game winner. I recall a game in Cleveland this year where Kobe started out hot and then just magically disappeared in the 4th. All the while Lebron was going off and leading his team to victory.

The playoffs are where it really matters though, and nobody can forget his airballs against Utah in 1997 in an elimination game. Don't give me the "he was only 18/19 blah blah blah" BS. The same idiots that say that will jump on MJ for losing early on in his career. As Fatal9 himself actually pointed out in a thread earlier this week, Kobe's Game 7 performances are rather terrible. He was so-so in 2000 against Portland. He was pretty much non existent against Sacramento in 2002, being held without a field goal in the 4th and OT. We all know what happened against Phoenix in 2006. Last year against Houston, he shot poorly and did nothing of note. In 2001, I remember him being non existent again in the 4th quarter and overtime of Game 1 of the Finals, while AI was lighting his @$$ up and winning on the Lakers home court. I could go on and on about his disappearing acts in playoff games going back to the 3peat, but I have better things to do today so I won't waste my time. It will only fall on deaf ears anyways.

[vinsane01]

You don't need to hit game winners when you're going 72-10.

+1

Just a question, i dont want anyone to take this the wrong way. But How many game winners has kobe made during the playoffs compared to MJ?

[RazorBaLade]

+1

Just a question, i dont want anyone to take this the wrong way. But How many game winners has kobe made during the playoffs compared to MJ?

I saw a stat that Kobe is 4-8 in playoff GW's. Idk MJ's though, but I'm sure he has a lot more attempts and makes

[Knoe Itawl]

Because Kobe has never made a great last second shot in the playoffs right?

Because Kobe hasn't made as many great last second shots in as many important situations as Jordan.

[xcesswee]

Because Kobe has never made a great last second shot in the playoffs right?

Never said that.. Kobe has had plenty of playoff games where he came up big. But i don't think the magnitude of the games were as big as jordan's clutch games. Think of all the big shots in the playoffs jordan has hit. Most of them are in situations which led the bulls to win the series. Jordan in 1997 hit Game 1 finals buzzer beater to give bulls win, Jordan came up huge in the clutch in game 5 of 1997 finals while having the flu. If Jordan didn't come up big in those games Jazz could have been champions that year. 1998 - Game 6 finals - Jordan hits a quick layup, steals the ball, then hits a memorable jumpshot to win the game. If he doesn't do that, bulls could possibly lose to jazz in game 7 (Homecourt for the jazz was insane, their fans were so loud). 1988 - Game 5 vs Cavs - Jordan hits "the shot" to advance the bulls. There are so many more shots and big pressure situations where jordan has come up HUGE to help bulls win the series.

I know kobe has had his fair share of helping lakers win the series with game winning shots, but i just don't think he's done it as much as jordan or hit bigger game winning shots than jordan in huge pressure situations where missing or making the shot could determine the series. For example, Kobe came up huge in overtime in 2000 NBA finals Game 4. However, even though Kobe was clutch, i still don't think it affected the series that much because lakers was going to beat the pacers whether they lost or won that game. Also, in 2006, Kobe hit that game winning shot against the suns in I think Game 4 or 5. But it didn't matter because Lakers still lost that series. These are just some examples where Kobe came up big, but it didn't really matter in the grand scheme.

[catch24]

Great post Raptorsfan, those are nothing but facts. Kobe is that dude this year, no doubt, but he's also had a lot of short comings, as you posted.

[RazorBaLade]

Because Kobe hasn't made as many great last second shots in as many important situations as Jordan.

I assume you're referring to Game 7's, because to claim that Kobe's GW's against Det and Phx for example are less important than Jordans mid series GW's is pretty stupid...

Kobe hit the GW vs Det in finals, and didn't make one vs Orlando (triple teamed and blocked by someone he didn't see from the back but nonetheless it counts) and besides that he hasn't had a chance to hit one in a Game 7 or in the Finals. So 1/2 in "important" shots, compared to how many for MJ?

[Jacks3]

Thank you. :cheers: Awesome post. These morons don't understand the concept of "closer". The guy's "choked" harder than most other superstars I've seen. To me, clutch is more than just hitting a game winner, hell anyone can do that if given the opportunity. Vlade Divac was right in a way when he said anyone could've thrown in that Robert Horry 3 in 2002. Clutch means taking over the game in 4th quarter. It's more of a choke to me if you become invisible during the 4th quarter than if you miss a game winner. I recall a game in Cleveland this year where Kobe started out hot and then just magically disappeared in the 4th. All the while Lebron was going off and leading his team to victory.

The playoffs are where it really matters though, and nobody can forget his airballs against Utah in 1997 in an elimination game. Don't give me the "he was only 18/19 blah blah blah" BS. The same idiots that say that will jump on MJ for losing early on in his career. As Fatal9 himself actually pointed out in a thread earlier this week, Kobe's Game 7 performances are rather terrible. He was so-so in 2000 against Portland. He was pretty much non existent against Sacramento in 2002, being held without a field goal in the 4th and OT. We all know what happened against Phoenix in 2006. Last year against Houston, he shot poorly and did nothing of note. In 2001, I remember him being non existent again in the 4th quarter and overtime of Game 1 of the Finals, while AI was lighting his @$$ up and winning on the Lakers home court. I could go on and on about his disappearing acts in playoff games going back to the 3peat, but I have better things to do today so I won't waste my time. It will only fall on deaf ears anyways.
?
He had 25 pts/11 rb/7 assist and 4 blocks in Game 7 vs Portland. He also sparked that Lakers run to come back from 15 down. I wouldn't call that "so-so". He shot terribly vs Sac in Gm 7, but still had 30/10/7/2 and hit 2/3 of three point field goals and 8/10 from the line. Overall, he's been excellent in the playoffs.:pimp:

[RazorBaLade]

Never said that.. Kobe has had plenty of playoff games where he came up big. But i don't think the magnitude of the games were as big as jordan's clutch games. Think of all the big shots in the playoffs jordan has hit. Most of them are in situations which led the bulls to win the series. Jordan in 1997 hit Game 1 finals buzzer beater to give bulls win, Jordan came up huge in the clutch in game 5 of 1997 finals while having the flu. If Jordan didn't come up big in those games Jazz could have been champions that year. 1998 - Game 6 finals - Jordan hits a quick layup, steals the ball, then hits a memorable jumpshot to win the game. If he doesn't do that, bulls could possibly lose to jazz in game 7 (Homecourt for the jazz was insane, their fans were so loud). 1988 - Game 5 vs Cavs - Jordan hits "the shot" to advance the bulls. There are so many more shots and big pressure situations where jordan has come up HUGE to help bulls win the series.

I know kobe has had his fair share of helping lakers win the series with game winning shots, but i just don't think he's done it as much as jordan or hit bigger game winning shots than jordan in huge pressure situations where missing or making the shot could determine the series.

Kobe hasn't had a chance to hit shots for his teams to win the series. If it's fair to say that Jordan didn't need GW's in reg season because he was 72-10, why can't I say that Kobe didn't need GW's in finals or series clinching games because his team was up by a considerable amount the final minutes or w/e?

[Allstar24]

Jeez everyone is talking in circles now. Alvin Gentry thinks Kobe is a better closer than Jordan. That is his opinion. Why are Jordan groupies getting so sensitive? Take your own advice.

[Big#50]

?
He had 25 pts/11 rb/7 assist and 4 blocks in Game 7 vs Portland. He also sparked that Lakers run to come back from 15 down. I wouldn't call that "so-so". He shot terribly vs Sac in Gm 7, but still had 30/10/7/2 and hit 2/3 of three point field goals and 8/10 from the line. Overall, he's been excellent in the playoffs.:pimp:
He had that horrible 04 Finals. He'll never erase that.

[chazzy]

Thank you. :cheers: Awesome post. These morons don't understand the concept of "closer". The guy's "choked" harder than most other superstars I've seen. To me, clutch is more than just hitting a game winner, hell anyone can do that if given the opportunity. Vlade Divac was right in a way when he said anyone could've thrown in that Robert Horry 3 in 2002. Clutch means taking over the game in 4th quarter. It's more of a choke to me if you become invisible during the 4th quarter than if you miss a game winner. I recall a game in Cleveland this year where Kobe started out hot and then just magically disappeared in the 4th. All the while Lebron was going off and leading his team to victory.

The playoffs are where it really matters though, and nobody can forget his airballs against Utah in 1997 in an elimination game. Don't give me the "he was only 18/19 blah blah blah" BS. The same idiots that say that will jump on MJ for losing early on in his career. As Fatal9 himself actually pointed out in a thread earlier this week, Kobe's Game 7 performances are rather terrible. He was so-so in 2000 against Portland. He was pretty much non existent against Sacramento in 2002, being held without a field goal in the 4th and OT. We all know what happened against Phoenix in 2006. Last year against Houston, he shot poorly and did nothing of note. In 2001, I remember him being non existent again in the 4th quarter and overtime of Game 1 of the Finals, while AI was lighting his @$$ up and winning on the Lakers home court. I could go on and on about his disappearing acts in playoff games going back to the 3peat, but I have better things to do today so I won't waste my time. It will only fall on deaf ears anyways.

You have a point, but I think what Gentry and everyone else in this thread is discussing is who's the best at making the final shot.. not best production in clutch situations. Different argument

[Jacks3]

He had that horrible 04 Finals. He'll never erase that.
Every great player has had his shortcomings. He still has 4 rings and plenty of great playoff games and series.

[xcesswee]

Kobe hasn't had a chance to hit shots for his teams to win the series. If it's fair to say that Jordan didn't need GW's in reg season because he was 72-10, why can't I say that Kobe didn't need GW's in finals or series clinching games because his team was up by a considerable amount the final minutes or w/e?

Well if the Lakers was winning the championship every year by a considerable amount in the playoffs then you are correct. However, you really believe the statement above?

[Big#50]

Every great player has had his shortcomings. He still has 4 rings and plenty of great playoff games and series.
Not denying he isn't a great playoff performer. I'm a Spurs fan, trust me I know about his playoffs play. But he has that ugly 04 series under his belt. It was a piss poor showing. Anyone who watched that series knows just how bad it was. Nobody forgets when you win a ring, nobody forgets when you choke.

[xcesswee]

BTW my criteria for why Jordan is a better closer is that he has hit bigger shots in bigger games than Kobe. If you want to use the criteria of hitting the most game winners for determining the better closer than in your opinion Kobe is the better closer. I have no problem with that.

[Jacks3]

Not denying he isn't a great playoff performer. I'm a Spurs fan, trust me I know about his playoffs play. But he has that ugly 04 series under his belt. It was a piss poor showing. Anyone who watched that series knows just how bad it was. Nobody forgets when you win a ring, nobody forgets when you choke.
Yeah, he stunk it up. But I doubt anybody will give a shit 20 yrs from now. Great players are always remembered for the good things.

[Knoe Itawl]

I assume you're referring to Game 7's, because to claim that Kobe's GW's against Det and Phx for example are less important than Jordans mid series GW's is pretty stupid...

Kobe hit the GW vs Det in finals, and didn't make one vs Orlando (triple teamed and blocked by someone he didn't see from the back but nonetheless it counts) and besides that he hasn't had a chance to hit one in a Game 7 or in the Finals. So 1/2 in "important" shots, compared to how many for MJ?

cleveland (twice for series)
Game 1 vs Utah
Game 6 vs Utah (for title)

That's 4 off top just from memory. And because he hasn't had a chance to hit a series winner, I'm supposed to assume that he would? The fact is that Jordan did it in the highest pressure situations possible. Something Kobe has not. And that counts for me more than some regular season game winners and a couple in the playoffs (by the way, both Phx and Det are series he ended up LOSING). Your silly "Kobe hasn't had a chance to hit one" is a red herring and is irrelevant to what actually HAPPENED.

Unless you want to tell me what Kobe "could" do is as important as what Jordan DID DO, miss me with that.

[6thManOfTheYear]

i wish i could buy stock in that threads with mj and kobe in the title will be mad controversial.

i'd be richer than antoine walker fa sho

[RazorBaLade]

Well if the Lakers was winning the championship every year by a considerable amount in the playoffs then you are correct. However, you really believe the statement above?

I definitely believe that. The east was super weak and it was guaranteed that whoever comes out of the west will win during the 3 peat, in 04 they got destroyed by Detroit every game except the first where he hit the game winner... Against Boston lakers got blown out / gave up a 20 pt lead, you can blame Kobe a bit for that if you want but the convo isn't about that, its about the chances for a game winner and he didn't have the chance vs boston.. Against Orl they easily took care of them really, but kobe had the opportunity for the GW so that makes him 1/2 in important shots. Not bad.

For the other playoff series, the 3peat lakers dominated everyone or it never got to a point where he had to make a GW, but he did have the great alley oop to shaq and taking over against pacers in OT. Hou was a close series if you just look at the fact that it went to 7 but the team that played home won by 20 like every game. Denver was a close series but there was never room for clutch offensive plays, denver always had the last shot and they either missed or ariza stole the ball. in 08 the road to the finals was in fact pretty easy.

Sounds about right to me.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jeez everyone is talking in circles now. Alvin Gentry thinks Kobe is a better closer than Jordan. That is his opinion. Why are Jordan groupies getting so sensitive? Take your own advice.

Great question. If Jordan is the ***clear GOAT*** as alleged by so much insecurity surrounding him?

This is why, since the Bulls and Suns have no real chance, I am hoping the Cavs or Lakers win this year. It will be comedic gold to see the MJ fan reaction to the media response to Kobe winning a 5th ring (remember, the media has designated 6 as a magic number for him. Take a guess why they chose 6? :oldlol: ) or Lebron winning his first and being more accomplished than MJ through 7 seasons and much more accomplished at age 25. I can't wait until June. :cheers:

[RazorBaLade]

cleveland (twice for series)
Game 1 vs Utah
Game 6 vs Utah (for title)

That's 4 off top just from memory. And because he hasn't had a chance to hit a series winner, I'm supposed to assume that he would? The fact is that Jordan did it in the highest pressure situations possible. Something Kobe has not. And that counts for me more than some regular season game winners and a couple in the playoffs (by the way, both Phx and Det are series he ended up LOSING). Your silly "Kobe hasn't had a chance to hit one" is a red herring and is irrelevant to what actually HAPPENED.

Unless you want to tell me what Kobe "could" do is as important as what Jordan DID DO, miss me with that.

You're not supposed to assume he would, but you can't assume he wouldn't. You're just supposed to add the awesome important GW's Jordan had to his resume, without putting a minus on Kobe's, just like no one says MJ wasn't a clutch reg season guy because his teams played great in regular season and the close games were far less than Kobe's been a part of.

Read my post to the other dude too, but no it isn't silly at all. Kobe hasn't had chances to win series, so putting him down for it just doesn't make sense. He's been on teams that drastically step it up for playoffs while playing down to the opponents level in the regular season, and so it makes sense that Kobe has his chances in the reg season but not in the playoffs. Thats just how it is.

[Big#50]

Yeah, he stunk it up. But I doubt anybody will give a shit 20 yrs from now. Great players are always remembered for the good things.
Agreed. He still hasn't had that MJ game winning shot against the Jazz, MJ's series against Phoenix, Tim's near quad double and defensive domination of the Nets, Shaq's domination in 3 Finals, Bird's near triple double series. He hasn't had that. He had a good game against the Pacers, he had good averages against the Nets but Shaq destroyed that team. The Sixers series was all Shaq and his elbows from hell. Kobe has not had that Finals moment.
So what will he be remembered as? 81 points, rape, ballhog, choker chucker, quitting on his team, riding the big man to 3 rings? He won in 09 but did he stand out in any way. When we watch that series in a couple of years we wont put it anywhere near the top 15 performances in Finals history.
Is he skilled? Top 10 player. Great closer but not top 10 clutch players ever. Just my opinion.

[Svendiggity]

Agreed. He still hasn't had that MJ game winning shot against the Jazz, MJ's series against Phoenix, Tim's near quad double and defensive domination of the Nets, Shaq's domination in 3 Finals, Bird's near triple double series. He hasn't had that. He had a good game against the Pacers, he had good averages against the Nets but Shaq destroyed that team. The Sixers series was all Shaq and his elbows from hell. Kobe has not had that Finals moment.
So what will he be remembered as? 81 points, rape, ballhog, choker chucker, quitting on his team, riding the big man to 3 rings? He won in 09 but did he stand out in any way. When we watch that series in a couple of years we wont put it anywhere near the top 15 performances in Finals history.
Is he skilled? Top 10 player. Great closer but not top 10 clutch players ever. Just my opinion.

People might take you more serious if you weren't so biased.

[Big#50]

People might take you more serious if you weren't so biased.
How am I being biased?

[Knoe Itawl]

You're not supposed to assume he would, but you can't assume he wouldn't. You're just supposed to add the awesome important GW's Jordan had to his resume, without putting a minus on Kobe's.

See, this is where people like you lack the ability to reason. It's not "putting a minus in Kobe" to state the FACT that Jordan has hit more clutch gws in more important situations than Kobe has. If we're talking best closers in history, that has to COUNT. Not some BS on what Kobe could do. Again, unless you're saying what could be done is important as what's actually done I don't want hear it.

Read my post to the other dude too, but no it isn't silly at all. Kobe hasn't had chances to win series, so putting him down for it just doesn't make sense. He's been on teams that drastically step it up for playoffs while playing down to the opponents level in the regular season, and so it makes sense that Kobe has his chances in the reg season but not in the playoffs. Thats just how it is.

Can you get it through your mind that it's not putting him down to state that he hasn't hit the pressurized gws that Jordan has? If we're comparing them, I'm putting Jordan ahead because of those facts. They count more to me than regular season game winners, or some gws in series where everything wasn't on the line. Can you grasp this simple point?

It's like saying "Well, Jordan never got the chance to play for titles in the two years he retired so since he COULD have won, it's just as tangible as the 6 titles he won. He never got the chance to play for them, right? That's just silly.

[TryToBeUnbias]

Jeez everyone is talking in circles now. Alvin Gentry thinks Kobe is a better closer than Jordan. That is his opinion. Why are Jordan groupies getting so sensitive? Take your own advice.
QFT

[Knoe Itawl]

Jeez everyone is talking in circles now. Alvin Gentry thinks Kobe is a better closer than Jordan. That is his opinion. Why are Jordan groupies getting so sensitive? Take your own advice.

Obviously you're getting sensitive because you took the time to post in this thread, right? And somehow when people like Fatal come into threads where someone has praised Jordan as GOAT I doubt you post shyt like "Gee, Pat Riley thinks Jordan is GOAT. That's his opinion. Why are Kobe Balllickers getting so sensitive?"

[RazorBaLade]

You're not supposed to assume he would, but you can't assume he wouldn't. You're just supposed to add the awesome important GW's Jordan had to his resume, without putting a minus on Kobe's.

See, this is where people like you lack the ability to reason. It's not "putting a minus in Kobe" to state the FACT that Jordan has hit more clutch gws in more important situations than Kobe has. If we're talking best closers in history, that has to COUNT. Not some BS on what Kobe could do. Again, unless you're saying what could be done is important as what's actually done I don't want hear it.

Read my post to the other dude too, but no it isn't silly at all. Kobe hasn't had chances to win series, so putting him down for it just doesn't make sense. He's been on teams that drastically step it up for playoffs while playing down to the opponents level in the regular season, and so it makes sense that Kobe has his chances in the reg season but not in the playoffs. Thats just how it is.

Can you get it through your mind that it's not putting him down to state that he hasn't hit the pressurized gws that Jordan has? If we're comparing them, I'm putting Jordan ahead because of those facts. They count more to me than regular season game winners, or some gws in series where everything wasn't on the line. Can you grasp this simple point?

It's like saying "Well, Jordan never got the chance to play for titles in the two years he retired so since he COULD have won, it's just as tangible as the 6 titles he won. He never got the chance to play for them, right? That's just silly.

In that case, I agree. It is a valid opinion if you wish to put Jordan ahead of Kobe in terms of clutch shots because Kobe hasn't hit any series winning shots. You don't need to pretend like I can't grasp simple points and be a douche, I was just arguing a hypothetical for the people (not you) that stated Kobe's many more game winner's in the regular season don't matter at ALL because "Jordan's team was going 72-10" but hypocritically think that Jordan's series game winners matter and Kobe sucks because he doesn't have any; completely ignoring the point that Kobe hasn't had the chances to hit them.

I should also mention that nonetheless I think that Kobe would hit them if he had the chance, and I place him as #1 on the all time clutch shooting list but until it happens I can see agree with points that are made by anyone that says Larry or Jordan is a bit better in the clutch.

[Roundball_Rock]

The 72-10 argument is invalid. Jordan's teams on average won 49 games per year. I don't know what Kobe's average is but it almost certainly is higher. Yes, Jordan's average includes 2 years in Washington but that gave him additional opportunities to take shots. Still, let's take Jordan's Washington years out and then also take LA's two worst years out.

Chicago's win totals from 1985-1993, 1996-98: 38, 30, 40, 50, 47, 55, 61, 67, 57, 72, 69, 62 (Washington went 37-45 twice with Jordan)
LAL's win totals from 1997-2010: 56, 61, 51*, 67, 56, 58, 50, 56, 34, 45, 42, 57, 65, 60 (this year's pace)

Average for Chicago: 54
Average for LA: 54
Average for LA minus worst two seasons: 57

So it is a myth that Jordan's teams were winning far more games and hence he was in less close games. Once again there is a disconnect between Jordan's record and what he is being presented as.

*Over 82 games. They were 31-19 in the strike shortened season

[Dresta]

This is retarded, law of averages people, the % of gamewinning shots Kobe hit before this season was really poor, he had to start making them sometime.

edit: And this has nothing to do with MJ to me, he's just one of the several guys i'd take over Kobe to close out a game. For example, i'd much rather have Bird taking that last shot then Kobe.

[Knoe Itawl]

In that case, I agree. It is a valid opinion if you wish to put Jordan ahead of Kobe in terms of clutch shots because Kobe hasn't hit any series winning shots. You don't need to pretend like I can't grasp simple points and be a douche, I was just arguing a hypothetical for the people (not you) that stated Kobe's many more game winner's in the regular season don't matter at ALL because "Jordan's team was going 72-10" but hypocritically think that Jordan's series game winners matter and Kobe sucks because he doesn't have any; completely ignoring the point that Kobe hasn't had the chances to hit them.

I never stated any of that, so address what I state, not what others have. I never said Kobe's clutch shots don't matter or whatever, just that my opinion is that Jordan's have come in the highest pressure situations possible. To me, what you feel Kobe could do is just as irrelevant as my thinking that Jordan could have won more titles if he hadn't retired.


I should also mention that nonetheless I think that Kobe would hit them if he had the chance, and I place him as #1 on the all time clutch shooting list but until it happens I can see agree with points that are made by anyone that says Larry or Jordan is a bit better in the clutch.

So you basically put him on the number 1 list because of what you think he could do. Nevermind the gws Jordan hit in more important situations. Those situations require the utmost level of concentration, execution, and nerves. You can't guarantee Kobe would have hit as many, even if given the chance. So your whole argument boils down to, basically, "I have him at number one because I want him to be."

Well, by that logic, Jordan's 8 titles are very impressive to me too.

[bada bing]

haven't we already said everything we have to when comparing kobe to jordan? like seriously what else do you guys have left to say that hasn't already been said by someone here? let it go people. Kobe is a great player and in his own way is one of the best to play this game. we can all agree on that right? beyond that its up for debate. just let this argument ****ing die for ****s sake.

[Roundball_Rock]

haven't we already said everything we have to when comparing kobe to jordan? like seriously what else do you guys have left to say that hasn't already been said by someone here? let it go people. Kobe is a great player and in his own way is one of the best to play this game. we can all agree on that right? beyond that its up for debate. just let this argument ****ing die for ****s sake.

This is nothing. This is the tip of the iceberg. Right now it is just academic. 99% of people have Jordan ahead of Kobe (yes MJ fans, so do I and there is nothing imo that Kobe can ever do to eclipse MJ). IF--and this is a fairly big if--Kobe can get to 6 rings (the media designated magic number for him) or--may Nike forbid--7 watch how the media reacts (why do you think they have designated 6 rings as a magic number for Kobe?). The media influences people, as Jordan fans should understand. Then the stakes will be real and you will see far more of this and amazingly even more venom on both sides than already exists.

[catch24]

This is nothing. This is the tip of the iceberg. Right now it is just academic. 99% of people have Jordan ahead of Kobe (yes MJ fans, so do I and there is nothing imo that Kobe can ever do to eclipse MJ). IF--and this is a fairly big if--Kobe can get to 6 rings (the media designated magic number for him) or--may Nike forbid--7 watch how the media reacts (why do you think they have designated 6 rings as a magic number for Kobe?). The media influences people, as Jordan fans should understand. Then the stakes will be real and you will see far more of this and amazingly even more venom on both sides than already exists.

ISH boards (if they still exist at that time) would be down 24/7 -- every post would be MJ this, KB that. Man, that's too much drama for me.

[RazorBaLade]

I never stated any of that, so address what I state, not what others have. I never said Kobe's clutch shots don't matter or whatever, just that my opinion is that Jordan's have come in the highest pressure situations possible. To me, what you feel Kobe could do is just as irrelevant as my thinking that Jordan could have won more titles if he hadn't retired.

I agree, jordan's shots have come in the highest pressure situations possible; to the fan. However, neither of them feel pressure. There is no question about that. If you are ice cold and can hit A LOT of gamewinners in the reg season, a nice amount of game winners in the playoffs, there is no difference in taking a shot with the series on the line or a game on the line. I guarantee they don't think about it that way.

I think Kobe can do it because he's done everything he possibly can to show he can, all thats left is having the chance. Don't be stupid and try to compare a championship which factors in many things such as injuries to something like a shot in game 3 or a shot in game 7.

So you basically put him on the number 1 list because of what you think he could do. Nevermind the gws Jordan hit in more important situations. Those situations require the utmost level of concentration, execution, and nerves. You can't guarantee Kobe would have hit as many, even if given the chance. So your whole argument boils down to, basically, "I have him at number one because I want him to be."

Well, by that logic, Jordan's 8 titles are very impressive to me too.

He's number 1 to me because he's hit more game winning shots, I promise you there is no difference in a player like Kobe, Jordan or Bird's head between a last second shot on the playground or a last second shot in the playoffs. It's just 1 shot, the only difference is the amount of celebration after or the amount of disappointment after. Besides that, its just one shot. Kobe has made enough of those to me that makes me think he would knock ANY shot down if he had a chance, no matter whats on the line.

If you want to think that Jordan would have not had an injury nor any key player on the Bulls for 2 years in a row and go through all the hardships to win twice you can, but don't try and equate that to just 1 shot that Kobe has knocked down repeatedly in the final seconds just not in a game 7.

TL;DR version and to further clarify, in case you're a little slow... My point is this: There is no difference in a great clutch shooters head between a shot in game 4 or a shot in game 7, and since Kobe has made more GW's just never had the chance to do it in a game 7 he would still make a lot of them since there's no difference to him, its just 1 shot. This is highly different than a situation like titles because of injuries and so on, although if you were to say that jordan and the bulls were great enough to win 2 more had they gotten the chance to play with Jordan for those 2 years I would not knock on it because its perfectly valid and yet another point one could make in Jordans and bulls greatest player and greatest team candidacy. I underlined so you can understand the difference between a team winning a title and a player making a shot.

And now I am done with the convo since neither one of us will budge, and I know this for a fact. Good talk.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

you give me my choice any player, thruout NBA history, to make the play...
.... I take Larry Bird..... and I am no fan of Bird, as a Laker fan.

Bird, more than any player I've ever seen (including MJ), was about 2 or 3 thoughts ahead of everyone else.

[Glide2keva]

you give me my choice any player, thruout NBA history, to make the play...
.... I take Larry Bird..... and I am no fan of Bird, as a Laker fan.

Bird, more than any player I've ever seen (including MJ), was about 2 or 3 thoughts ahead of everyone else.
This is so true.

[YAWN]

So you basically put him on the number 1 list because of what you think he could do. Nevermind the gws Jordan hit in more important situations. Those situations require the utmost level of concentration, execution, and nerves. You can't guarantee Kobe would have hit as many, even if given the chance.

you really think guys as great as jordan and kobe would get rattled more on a crunch time shot in the playoffs as opposed to other times? I don't think the difference would be very much for stone cold killers like these two. Would the playoff pressure affect a guy like michael redd? sure. kobe and jordan? unlikely..

[DTD]

Kobe Bryant, List of Game Winners:


1. Dec. 27, 1999: Lakers 108 - Mavericks 106 (game-winning FTs w/ 8.6 secs)
2. May 09, 1999: Lakers 101 - Rockets 100 (Playoffs, game-winning FTs w/ 5.3 secs)
3. May 10, 2000: Lakers 97 - Phoenix 96 (Playoffs, jumper over Kidd w/ 2.6 secs)
4. June 14, 2000: Lakers 120 - Pacers 118 (NBA Finals, OT off-reb and put-back w/ 5.9 secs)
5. Feb. 07, 2001: Lakers 85 - Phoenix 83 (jumper over Marion w/ 2.7 sec)
6. Feb. 13, 2001: Lakers 113 - Nets 110 (OT layup/and-1 w/ 4.8 secs)
7. Jan. 02, 2002: Lakers 87 - Nuggets 86 (off-reb and jumper w/ 55 secs)
8. Feb. 22, 2002: Lakers 96 - Hornets 94 (buzzer-beater, jumper over Lynch)
9. May 12, 2002: Lakers 87 - Spurs 85 (Playoffs, off-reb and put-back w/ 5.1 secs)
10. Dec. 06, 2002: Lakers 105 - Mavericks 103 (turn-around jumper w/ 8 secs)
11. April 04, 2003: Lakers 102 - Grizzlies 101 (buzzer beater, jumper over Battier)
12. April 06, 2003: Lakers 115 - Suns 113 (OT, game-tying jumper for OT, jumper over Marion w/ 28.6 sec)
13. Dec. 19, 2003: Lakers 101 - Nuggets 99 (buzzer-beater, fade-away over Barry)
14. Mar. 21, 2004: Lakers 104 - Bucks 103 (OT jumper over Van Horn w/ 25.1 sec)
15. April 14, 2004: Lakers 105 - Blazers 104 (OT buzzer beater, game-tying 3-pointer for OT, fall-away 3-pointer)
16. Mar. 12, 2005: Lakers 117 - Bobcats 116 (jumper over Bogans w/ 0.9 secs)
17. Nov. 02, 2005: Lakers 99 - Nuggets 97 (OT jumper over Najera w/ 0.6 secs)
18. Dec. 04, 2005: Lakers 99 - Bobcats 98 (game-winning FTs w/ 7 secs)
19. Jan. 12, 2006: Lakers 99 - Cavaliers 98 (jumper over James w/ 8.6 secs)
20. April 30, 2006: Lakers 99 - Suns 98 (Playoffs, OT buzzer-beater, game-tying tear-drop for OT, jumper over Diaw)
21. Jan. 14, 2008: Lakers 123 - Sonics 121 (OT jumper over Green w/ 4.3 secs)
22. Jan. 09, 2009: Lakers 121 - Pacers 119 (jumper over Jack w/ 3 secs)
23. Dec. 04, 2009: Lakers 108 - Heat 107 (buzzer-beater, 3-pointer over Wade)
24. Dec. 16, 2009: Lakers 107 - Bucks 106 (OT buzzer-beater, jumper over Bell)
25. Jan. 01, 2010: Lakers 109 - Kings 108 (buzzer-beater, 3-pointer)
26. Jan. 31, 2010: Lakers 90 - Celtics 89 (jumper over Allen w/ 7.3 secs)
27. Feb. 23, 2010: Lakers 99 - Grizzlies 98 (3-pointer over Gay w/ 4.3 secs)
28. Mar. 09, 2010: Lakers 109 - Raptors 107 (jumper over Wright w/ 1.9 secs)

Eventual-Game Winners:

1. Nov. 16, 2000: Lakers 112 - Kings 110 (OT, game-tying 3-pointer for OT, jumper over Divac w/ 24 secs)
*Kings intentially foul Bryant w/ 4 secs, +2FTs
2. Mar. 24, 2002: Lakers 97 - Kings 96 (jumper over Christie w/ 36 secs)
*Webber jump-hook w/ 29 secs
3. Dec. 22, 2002: Lakers 109 - Raptors 107 (layup over Peterson w/ 33.2 secs)
*Raptors intentially foul Horry w/ 8.5 secs, +FT
4. May 11, 2003: Lakers 99 - Spurs 95 (Playoffs, FT w/ 48 secs)
*Spurs intentially foul Bryant (twice) w/ 14.2 secs, +3FTs
5. Feb. 17, 2004: Lakers 89 - Blazers 86 (left-handed layup w/ 31.8 secs)
*Blazers intentially foul Bryant w/ 7 secs, +FT
6. Mar. 03, 2004: Lakers 96 - Rockets 93 (jumper over Yao w/ 32 secs)
*Rockets intentially foul Fisher w/ 9.8 secs, +2FTs
7. April 25, 2004: Lakers 92 - Rockets 88 (Playoffs, OT layup/and-1 over Mobley /w 40 secs)
*Rockets intentially foul Malone w/ 6 secs, +FT
8. Jan. 07, 2006: Lakers 112 - Clippers 109 (tear-drop over Brand w/ 11 secs)
*Parker fastbreak-dunk w/ 4.4 secs
09. May 21, 2008: Lakers 89 - Spurs 85 (Playoffs, jumper w/ 23.9 secs)
*Spurs intentionally foul Vujacic w/ 7 secs, +2FTs
10. Jan. 13, 2009: Lakers 105 - Rockets 100 (3-pointer over Battier w/ 27 secs)
*Rockets intentially foul Gasol (twice) w/ 7 secs, +3FTs
11. Jan. 13, 2010: Lakers 100 - Mavericks 95 (jumper over Howard w/ 28 secs)
*Mavericks intentionally foul Farmar w/ 5 secs, +3FTs

[zizozain]

Right, a night person when it comes to Laker games. Not stalking since you posted your youtube account and not hard to find your RealGM account since all you do is copy paste your posts from here to there or vice versa. JordanLover...bruh? Must lead a sad pathetic life that you need to be a stan for someone that's retired at your age.
lol love it ..
do somthimg like that please to duma :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

JordanLover...bruh?

Is Loki a woman? If so is the name literal? Has Loki/OSB really slobbed MJ's knob? :oldlol:

[Leviathon1121]

Is Loki a woman? If so is the name literal? Has Loki/OSB really slobbed MJ's knob? :oldlol:

Loki is a very good poster, rarely says anything basketball wise that people highly disagree with, and believes Wilt and Kareem could have legit cases for GOAT. Yet you still lump him into your Jordanaire's profile simply because he tries to argue against the endless MJ diminishment around here.

Agenda much?

[NoGunzJustSkillz]

Is Loki a woman? If so is the name literal? Has Loki/OSB really slobbed MJ's knob? :oldlol:
for a crack rock.

[NBASTATMAN]

Kobe is a great shot maker.. This year he has alot of attempts to hit game winning and game tying shots.. He has made 7 of 14 from my count... That is great.. He is 6-10 on game winning shots which is ridiculous.... But a closer is a guy who closes out games...


Plenty of times Kobe has actually not made the shots that would have kept the Lakers ahead and then has wound up making the game winning shots.. Kobe being the best CLOSER came to a end when BOSTON came back from 24 back and beat THE LAKERS team in the FINALS..... While Kobe has made a good amount of game winners his percentages are the worse among his peers...


... Still I gotta admit he has been as good or better than anyone who has ever made the big shots this year..... Coach Gentry is in my opinion overreacting because Kobe is having his best year in terms of making game winning shots... But it is his opinion and he is entitled to one..



EITHER WAY KOBE HAS BEEN GREAT THIS YEAR IN GAME WINNING SITUATIONS...

[Bandito]

Thank you. :cheers: Awesome post. These morons don't understand the concept of "closer". The guy's "choked" harder than most other superstars I've seen. To me, clutch is more than just hitting a game winner, hell anyone can do that if given the opportunity. Vlade Divac was right in a way when he said anyone could've thrown in that Robert Horry 3 in 2002. Clutch means taking over the game in 4th quarter. It's more of a choke to me if you become invisible during the 4th quarter than if you miss a game winner. I recall a game in Cleveland this year where Kobe started out hot and then just magically disappeared in the 4th. All the while Lebron was going off and leading his team to victory.

The playoffs are where it really matters though, and nobody can forget his airballs against Utah in 1997 in an elimination game. Don't give me the "he was only 18/19 blah blah blah" BS. The same idiots that say that will jump on MJ for losing early on in his career. As Fatal9 himself actually pointed out in a thread earlier this week, Kobe's Game 7 performances are rather terrible. He was so-so in 2000 against Portland. He was pretty much non existent against Sacramento in 2002, being held without a field goal in the 4th and OT. We all know what happened against Phoenix in 2006. Last year against Houston, he shot poorly and did nothing of note. In 2001, I remember him being non existent again in the 4th quarter and overtime of Game 1 of the Finals, while AI was lighting his @$$ up and winning on the Lakers home court. I could go on and on about his disappearing acts in playoff games going back to the 3peat, but I have better things to do today so I won't waste my time. It will only fall on deaf ears anyways. If it wasn't for the way he played the Lakers wouldn't beat the Suns 3 times dawg.

[godofgods]

Bird tended to shoot his team into & out of games as well(jacking 3's) which pissed off McHale with whom he reportedly had a distant/cold relationship.



LOL where did you read that, a book written by Al Sharpton?

[Knoe Itawl]

you really think guys as great as jordan and kobe would get rattled more on a crunch time shot in the playoffs as opposed to other times? I don't think the difference would be very much for stone cold killers like these two. Would the playoff pressure affect a guy like michael redd? sure. kobe and jordan? unlikely..

I think, based on some of the failures Kobe's had on big stages, that there is a good chance he would get rattled. You don't think so. The bottom line is that you're arguing COULD rather than IS. And I think that making the crunch time playoff shots that Jordan has is harder and more impressive than anything Kobe has done, period (and that's really inarguable. How are you going to argue Jordan's gws in the playoffs aren't better? You can't, so you use "could" which is what Kobe fans LOVE to do). And Jordan did it time after time. Whether Kobe COULD do it, doesn't matter. He hasn't. And that's why I can't put him above Jordan in clutch play. Those shots I listed >>>>>> any gws Kobe has. You might not LIKE it, but it's just facts. Therefore, I take Jordan over him.

And even if he was to not get rattled, he could STILL miss them regardless (as he has many times in clutch situations) So the whole getting rattled thing is actually moot because whether they're rattled or no, they could still miss. Kobe fans argue about what Kobe "could" do more than any fans I've seen. You don't think people can argue a lot about what Jordan "could" do? Or many other players? Or is Kobe the only one so special that he gets the "could" card so much? I'll argue what Jordan's DONE, you argue what Kobe's DONE. Deal?

[Doranku]

I think, based on some of the failures Kobe's had on big stages, that there is a good chance he would get rattled. You don't think so. The bottom line is that you're arguing COULD rather than IS. And I think that making the crunch time playoff shots that Jordan has is harder and more impressive than anything Kobe has done, period (and that's really inarguable. How are you going to argue Jordan's gws in the playoffs aren't better? You can't, so you use "could" which is what Kobe fans LOVE to do). And Jordan did it time after time. Whether Kobe COULD do it, doesn't matter. He hasn't. And that's why I can't put him above Jordan in clutch play. Those shots I listed >>>>>> any gws Kobe has. You might not LIKE it, but it's just facts. Therefore, I take Jordan over him.

And even if he was to not get rattled, he could STILL miss them regardless (as he has many times in clutch situations) So the whole getting rattled thing is actually moot because whether they're rattled or no, they could still miss. Kobe fans argue about what Kobe "could" do more than any fans I've seen. You don't think people can argue a lot about what Jordan "could" do? Or many other players? Or is Kobe the only one so special that he gets the "could" card so much? I'll argue what Jordan's DONE, you argue what Kobe's DONE. Deal?

I can't tell who you're trying to convice: us, or yourself? :roll:

[Knoe Itawl]

I can't tell who you're trying to convice: us, or yourself? :roll:

Why, your brilliant response has made me realize that everything I said was wrong. Your laserlike dissection of everything I said destroys any point I made.

Oh wait, as usual you don't have anything intelligent to say and just gave your typical simpleminded response. People that only do that, and can't argue any points or straight out trolls go on my ignore list. Therefore, I'll never acknowledge you again. Have fun getting :mad: when you see me post.

:roll:

[Doranku]

Why, your brilliant response has made me realize that everything I said was wrong. Your laserlike dissection of everything I said destroys any point I made.

Oh wait, as usual you don't have anything intelligent to say and just gave your typical simpleminded response. People that only do that, and can't argue any points or straight out trolls go on my ignore list. Therefore, I'll never acknowledge you again. Have fun getting :mad: when you see me post.

:roll:

:oldlol: You're the :mad: one, brah.

For the record, I think what Gentry said was retarded. Jordan and Bird both are (imo) inarguably better closers than Kobe has ever been. Your post just seems so pleading and desperate. :roll:

[Micku]

Kobe has more game winners, but I thought someone said that in the last minutes Jordan may have been better. Meaning, he'll get the points to lead the game and not let his team go behind, thus no need for game winner?

*shrugs*

But Kobe game winners and clutchness this year has been crazy.

[phoenix18]

I see that a new strain of Kobe overrating has hit Phoenix.

Tune in for the whole story at 11.

[Dresta]

you give me my choice any player, thruout NBA history, to make the play...
.... I take Larry Bird..... and I am no fan of Bird, as a Laker fan.

Bird, more than any player I've ever seen (including MJ), was about 2 or 3 thoughts ahead of everyone else.I agree, Kobe is having a great season in this regard, but he has been lacking in this regard in the past, often taking on 4 defenders en route to a terrible shot (see the finals last year when he got blocked by Turkoglu), can you imagine Bird doing something like that?

[juju151111]

Is their a list of Mj gamewinners?? I have seen a list, but seen vids on youtube that wasn't on the list. Does anyone of a complete list. I wish they had youtube back then.

[RazorBaLade]

I think, based on some of the failures Kobe's had on big stages, that there is a good chance he would get rattled. You don't think so. The bottom line is that you're arguing COULD rather than IS. And I think that making the crunch time playoff shots that Jordan has is harder and more impressive than anything Kobe has done, period (and that's really inarguable. How are you going to argue Jordan's gws in the playoffs aren't better? You can't, so you use "could" which is what Kobe fans LOVE to do). And Jordan did it time after time. Whether Kobe COULD do it, doesn't matter. He hasn't. And that's why I can't put him above Jordan in clutch play. Those shots I listed >>>>>> any gws Kobe has. You might not LIKE it, but it's just facts. Therefore, I take Jordan over him.

And even if he was to not get rattled, he could STILL miss them regardless (as he has many times in clutch situations) So the whole getting rattled thing is actually moot because whether they're rattled or no, they could still miss. Kobe fans argue about what Kobe "could" do more than any fans I've seen. You don't think people can argue a lot about what Jordan "could" do? Or many other players? Or is Kobe the only one so special that he gets the "could" card so much? I'll argue what Jordan's DONE, you argue what Kobe's DONE. Deal?

sry i had 2 come back

Read slowly, a "most clutch player" in my mind is a person who you would take for the final shot, this hypothetical final shot is one that hasn't happened. It's one that is in the future. Neither of them have taken this amazing most clutch shot, so its a matter of looking in the past to see who has the better chance. Kobe has made more GW's, tougher ones etc, so I take him. I don't believe the fazed shit, thats just fanboydom if you really believe that. Since jordan had some nice series clinching ones, its fair for u to take him for a final shot. but there is no CLEAR better one like u for w/e reason believe.

[ILLsmak]

The reason this is funny is because A. GEntry is such a no name that someone has to put "Suns Coach" because casual fans might be like "uh who?" and B. This guy could say all sorts of shit and nobody would give it a second thought, but because he said that after getting his ass kicked by LA everyone wants to use it.

-Smak

[StarJordan]

When I am averaging 70 wins blowing kobos out , don't need game winners cuz we're up by 20.

Mike made most game winners when it counted. Like in Game 6 of the NBA finals and also against LA Losers in 1991 finals. How many championship game winners kobe's got?


*slam*

[Knoe Itawl]

sry i had 2 come back

Read slowly, a "most clutch player" in my mind is a person who you would take for the final shot, this hypothetical final shot is one that hasn't happened. It's one that is in the future. Neither of them have taken this amazing most clutch shot, so its a matter of looking in the past to see who has the better chance. Kobe has made more GW's, tougher ones etc, so I take him. I don't believe the fazed shit, thats just fanboydom if you really believe that. Since jordan had some nice series clinching ones, its fair for u to take him for a final shot. but there is no CLEAR better one like u for w/e reason believe.

And I'll take the guy that has made the most in the most pressure filled situations. To me, that counts >>>>>>> regular season and non series clinching shots. And to me, it shouldn't really even be a question.

[Knoe Itawl]

The reason this is funny is because A. GEntry is such a no name that someone has to put "Suns Coach" because casual fans might be like "uh who?" and B. This guy could say all sorts of shit and nobody would give it a second thought, but because he said that after getting his ass kicked by LA kobe knobslobbers/jordan detractors want to use it.

-Smak

Fixed.

[Mrofir]

Less teams = more stacked, it's a two-way street.

Follow me.

If there is a 10 team league, on average, any one team has a 10% chance of winning it all.

If there is a 4 team league, on average, any one team has a 25% chance of winning it all.

Understand? Even if you take into account a concentration of talent, you have to assume statistically that the talent effect is consistent across teams, so everyone is better, so nobody's odds change at all due to talent effect. Whoopsy


from mortal kombat when you uppercut someone a bunch of times

whoopsy

[lilojmayo]

When I am going 72-10 blowing kobos out , don't need game winners cuz we're up by 20. Mike made most game winners when it counted. Like in Game 6 of the NBA finals and also against LA Losers in 1991 finals.
*slam*


Michael Jordan was a killler that strangled you, (part of why he is GOAT) Bury teams. I am not saying he did that all the time, but he tried his best to not let it get to the last minute point.

Kobe on the other hand especially with the more media coverage ( same with LeBron but to a lesser extent) would rather have games dragout to where they pull their "last minute heroics", so it can be all over sportscenter.

Give me the killer that will do his best to make sure lesser competition doesn't say with them the first 47 minutes and 55 seconds of the game. Then someone who goes halfway ( which Kobe does) just so he can pull off his last minue heroics.

[Mrofir]

With regards to this thread..

I think Kobe has hit a crazy number of buzzer beaters in his career and this season and he should be given props for that.

What I'd be interested in is a FG% statistic for game winning shots. I'm sure some unexpected names would pop up near the top of that chart. Some people get more attempts than others at a game winning shot. Also,

Clutch performance can't be limited to that one statistic -- R. Horry built a career out of clutch shots and I can't remember how many were actual game winning buzzer beaters, but I can't think of any right now. I think if you're comparing (to anyone) Jordan's clutch performance including playoffs, he's untouchable. Never lost in the finals, never performed less than stellar in the finals, 6 finals MVPs, game over.

From a playmaking ability perspective.. who would I want taking a buzzer beater now between Jordan or Kobe? Does it really matter much? I bet not. How different are their % of pressure shots made? Who knows? They'd both be great. What's cool is Kobe has hit a high number of game winning shots, and that fact alone should stand as cool and that's it. No comparison to Jordan is necessary.

[Leviathon1121]

With regards to this thread..

I think Kobe has hit a crazy number of buzzer beaters in his career and this season and he should be given props for that.

What I'd be interested in is a FG% statistic for game winning shots. I'm sure some unexpected names would pop up near the top of that chart. Some people get more attempts than others at a game winning shot. Also,

Clutch performance can't be limited to that one statistic -- R. Horry built a career out of clutch shots and I can't remember how many were actual game winning buzzer beaters, but I can't think of any right now. I think if you're comparing (to anyone) Jordan's clutch performance including playoffs, he's untouchable. Never lost in the finals, never performed less than stellar in the finals, 6 finals MVPs, game over.

From a playmaking ability perspective.. who would I want taking a buzzer beater now between Jordan or Kobe? Does it really matter much? I bet not. How different are their % of pressure shots made? Who knows? They'd both be great. What's cool is Kobe has hit a high number of game winning shots, and that fact alone should stand as cool and that's it. No comparison to Jordan is necessary.

82games has as close to that stat as you are going to get, and Kobe's percentage is not very good.

But to even argue that he is close to Jordan as a closer is absurd. To me being a closer entails far more then the game winning shot. That is the ability to control the game in the waning minutes of the 4th quarter, on the offensive end AND the defensive end. And I'm sorry Bryant fans, he is nowhere near Magic, Bird, or Jordan when it comes to the ability to close out a basketball game.

If we want to discuss one single aspect of being a closer, hitting buzzer beating shots, then that is an entirely separate thing. Unfortunately I don't think we will ever know exactly what the Jordan's or the Bird's shot percentage wise because the stats simply are not readily available. However Kobe would definitely be in this conversation, there is no denying he can hit the buzzer beater a lot.

[Mrofir]

I actually think the whole closer thing is kind of an emotional subject that's at least partially tied to our hero complex.. If you give a skilled basketball player the ball with 15 seconds to go, what % of the time will they make a game winning shot or pass? If skilled player A and skilled player B are equally skilled, their % of success should be similar. It would be if basketball players played 1000 games a season for 100 seasons for sure. But they don't so some irregularities arise.

Being the person your team goes to at the end of the game simply means your team thinks you're the best player. It's a good thing. Someone who hits lots of buzzer beaters is already a star before the shots go in because his team has decided that.

[Yung D-Will]

Yea being a closer is more of a mindset then anything. You have to be mentally prepared to put the team on your shoulders and make the right play.

[Roundball_Rock]

When I am averaging 70 wins blowing kobos out , don't need game winners cuz we're up by 20.

Good point in theory except that Kobe's teams on average have won more games than Jordan's (54 vs. 49). If you throw out their two worst seasons then the gap is 57 wins for Kobe and 54 for Jordan. The notion that Jordan won a lot more and hence had less opportunities for game winners is factually incorrect.


Michael Jordan was a killler that strangled you, (part of why he is GOAT) Bury teams. I am not saying he did that all the time, but he tried his best to not let it get to the last minute point.

Great point. :applause: Jordan was a zealot--even in practice he went all out! :bowdown:

(no, I am not being sarcastic. Jordan's competitiveness is amazing, rivaled only by Russell among GOAT level players)

[magnax1]

I remember hearing a while ago that Kobe hit (and probably has passed by now) Jordan's game winner total. Obviously that # alone doesn't show a whole lot, but Kobe is none the less close to as good as Jordan in the crunch.

[Roundball_Rock]

I remember hearing a while ago that Kobe hit (and probably has passed by now) Jordan's game winner total. Obviously that # alone doesn't show a whole lot, but Kobe is none the less close to as good as Jordan in the crunch.

He is in the "last shot" sense but who would you rather have in the NBA finals? For a Game 7? For the final 10 minutes of a game? The answer is clear to me: Jordan, Jordan, and Jordan. Clutchness is being dumbed down to one shot by the media when it takes 48 minutes to win games. According to this measure Horry was more clutch than Shaq even though we all know Shaq's amazing NBA finals record.


Is their a list of Mj gamewinners?? I have seen a list, but seen vids on youtube that wasn't on the list. Does anyone of a complete list. I wish they had youtube back then.

He has something like 26-28 but I doubt there is a legit, 100% accurate list out there but does it really matter? As lilojmayo pointed out Jordan was a zealot who wanted to drive a stake through your heart so sometimes the dagger would come with 45 seconds left, not 15 seconds left and not show up on the list.

What did Jordan say when the Bulls win in 93'? "Wooo!!!" "Yeah we did it!" No, it was "**** Thunder Dan Majerle" (paraphrasing, don't shoot me for not getting the quote 100% correct off of memory). The reason being Krause always loved Majerle's game so Jordan had a vendetta against him.

[magnax1]

He is in the "last shot" sense but who would you rather have in the NBA finals? For a Game 7? For the final 10 minutes of a game? The answer is clear to me: Jordan, Jordan, and Jordan. Clutchness is being dumbed down to one shot by the media when it takes 48 minutes to win games. According to this measure Horry was more clutch than Shaq even though we all know Shaq's amazing NBA finals record.
Yeah, I don't really think that you can say a game overall shows how clutch you are because you can have 55 points and 20 rebounds, but turnover the ball and miss all your free throws in the last minute. Or it can go the other way, where you suck the whole came but still come up clutch in the last couple minutes
Jordan vs. Kobe is close though. I'm not sure I can really differentiate them that much. Before this season I'd probably say Jordan no contest, but Kobe has absolutely destroyed the competition this season. Maybe its just an in the moment thing.

[LAClipsFan33]

Follow me.

If there is a 10 team league, on average, any one team has a 10% chance of winning it all.

If there is a 4 team league, on average, any one team has a 25% chance of winning it all.

Understand? Even if you take into account a concentration of talent, you have to assume statistically that the talent effect is consistent across teams, so everyone is better, so nobody's odds change at all due to talent effect. Whoopsy


from mortal kombat when you uppercut someone a bunch of times

whoopsy


This logic is stupid. The New Jersey Nets do not have the same chance of winning the title as the Orlando Magic. There are about 8 teams who have any real shot at winning the title despite how many teams are in the league.

The 30 teams do not have an equal shot. So if the Lakers have a 35% shot out of 100 it still balances out uneven

[KAJ=GOAT]

The funniest thing about this thread,

if Jordan still had the most game winners,


all of his stans and those on borderline status would use it as part of their argument as to why hes the "best closer". "Hes got more game winners than anyone else, of course hes the best closer".

But since the numbers don't work in his favor anymore,

well,

you know.

[don juan de marco]

Is Loki a woman? If so is the name literal? Has Loki/OSB really slobbed MJ's knob? :oldlol:


lol. damn i didnt see that coming. Jordanlover, that just sounds gay.
*loki putting on his see-thru gown with the butt cut out*:roll:

[LAClipsFan33]

And I guess nobody cares that Kobe is on his way to TAKING twice as many shots as Jodan did. You take more OF COURSE you make more eventually.

Same way Emmit Smith outdid Barry Sanders in yardage. TONS more carries...

[RazorBaLade]

The funniest thing about this thread,

if Jordan still had the most game winners,


all of his stans and those on borderline status would use it as part of their argument as to why hes the "best closer". "Hes got more game winners than anyone else, of course hes the best closer".

But since the numbers don't work in his favor anymore,

well,

you know.

SHHHHH, out of here with your logic. OUT OF HERE. Jordan is untouched in every category! In every way! Hail!

[StarJordan]

Good point in theory except that Kobe's teams on average have won more games than Jordan's (54 vs. 49). If you throw out their two worst seasons then the gap is 57 wins for Kobe and 54 for Jordan. The notion that Jordan won a lot more and hence had less opportunities for game winners is factually incorrect.

In his early 30s Jordan was winning a lot more...bulls almost won 70 games back to back.

And even if kobe has higher win average for career so far (thank shaq the MVP of those teams for first 8 years) which will go down likely over time, the question is not how many game winners Kobe made, but how many game winners he tried to make compared to how many he made? How many he missed? Factoring in all wins and losses, Jordan shoots a higher percentage than kobe. Chances are mike's clutch conversion percentage is higher than kobe's too. And that with the fact that unlike Kobe, for the first 4-5 years, jordan was the only option, getting double and triple teamed many times on those shots.

[JustinJDW]

And we go with the "Kobe is better than Jordan at this term we made up" bullshit.

Closer is for baseball guys.

[don juan de marco]

The funniest thing about this thread,

if Jordan still had the most game winners,


all of his stans and those on borderline status would use it as part of their argument as to why hes the "best closer". "Hes got more game winners than anyone else, of course hes the best closer".

But since the numbers don't work in his favor anymore,

well,

you know.


+10 :roll: thats funny because its true:applause:

[monkeypox]

Lol, more awesome logic.

Guy 1: Kobe has like 27 game winners, that's more than Jordan! That's pretty clutch.

Guy 2:Pshaw! You Kobe dong gobblers are ridiculous. Jordan didn't have a chance to because he was blowing teams out man! Not like Kobe, who probably plays the highest number of close games I've ever seen!

1: But Jordan has the 2nd highest number of game winners... and the Lakers have been near the top of the league in margin of victory all season.

2: Listen you nut sucking Kobe stan, Jordan made game winners because he was awesome, Kobe makes them because he's a ballhog that ruins game and makes them close. It's so ridiculously obvious. Also, who cares about margin of victory, what does that even have to do with close games, we're not even talking about that.

1: ...you sure talk a lot about homosexual acts.

2: KOBE! RAPE KOBE! RAPE! SHAQ! JERK! RAPE! RAPE! RAPE!

[JustinJDW]

Regular Season Game-winning shots are highly overrated, especially in this thread.

In reality, a game-winner is still just a single shot. Unless your game-winners won you Championships, like Jordan in 98, its just stupid to bring up as evidence as to why this player is better than another. It's funny to me when people bring up some type of game-winner list or some wack ass shit like that.

Championships, Finals MVP's, other accomplishments and your impact on the game are what really matter. Game-winners against loosing record teams in the Regular Season are blah.

People keep trying to make up some bullshit as to why Kobe is better than Jordan at this or that, but in reality, Jordan is just better than Kobe. And that's not gonna change unless Kobe wins AT LEAST two more Championships as the Final's MVP. And even after that, Jordan would still have more Finals MVP's, which I can tell you now, mean MUCH MORE than game winners against shitty teams in the regular season.

[chazzy]

Regular Season Game-winning shots are highly overrated, especially in this thread.

In reality, a game-winner is still just a single shot. Unless your game-winners won you Championships, like Jordan in 98, its just stupid to bring up as evidence as to why this player is better than another. It's funny to me when people bring up some type of game-winner list or some wack ass shit like that.

Championships, Finals MVP's, other accomplishments and your impact on the game are what really matter. Game-winners against loosing record teams in the Regular Season are blah.

People keep trying to make up some bullshit as to why Kobe is better than Jordan at this or that, but in reality, Jordan is just better than Kobe. And that's not gonna change unless Kobe wins AT LEAST two more Championships as the Final's MVP. And even after that, Jordan would still have more Finals MVP's, which I can tell you now, mean MUCH MORE than game winners against shitty teams in the regular season.

Hold your horses there buddy, what tangent are you rambling on about? :oldlol: Way to stay on topic


Lol, more awesome logic.

Guy 1: Kobe has like 27 game winners, that's more than Jordan! That's pretty clutch.

Guy 2:Pshaw! You Kobe dong gobblers are ridiculous. Jordan didn't have a chance to because he was blowing teams out man! Not like Kobe, who probably plays the highest number of close games I've ever seen!

1: But Jordan has the 2nd highest number of game winners... and the Lakers have been near the top of the league in margin of victory all season.

2: Listen you nut sucking Kobe stan, Jordan made game winners because he was awesome, Kobe makes them because he's a ballhog that ruins game and makes them close. It's so ridiculously obvious. Also, who cares about margin of victory, what does that even have to do with close games, we're not even talking about that.

1: ...you sure talk a lot about homosexual acts.

2: KOBE! RAPE KOBE! RAPE! SHAQ! JERK! RAPE! RAPE! RAPE!
monkeypox is online now Report Bad Post Reply With Quote

ISH in a nutshell. One comment made by a coach before a game regarding how he'd defend Kobe in a game winning situation sparked 11 pages of circular arguments, half of which were on the WRONG subject. This isn't about Kobe vs Jordan, hell this isn't even about Kobe vs. Jordan in clutch situations. It's Kobe vs Jordan for WHO YOU WANT TAKING THE LAST SHOT. All you idiots bringing up finals MVPs, 72-10 seasons, 2004 finals, Kobe's stats in game 7s, etc etc. are just huffing and puffing about different arguments. What a convoluted mess

[Mamba]

ok im gna ****ing say this once.

the teams he has hit gamewinners against lets have a look at the teams they were ****ing against.

1) miami heat....yeah this team is awesome
2) milwaukee bucks.... i love my bucks but seriously
3) sacramento kings...with no one defending him
4) memphis grizzlies.... yeah go us!
5) toronto raptors.

notice one ****ing common trait?
2 of them aren't in the playoffs and 3 are bottom of the east teams. now wtf were the lakers doing losing too or tied with these teams in the first place? why does kobe in the first place have to hit a gamewinner? well lets talk about defense shall we?

against the heat wade had 26 points 9 assists and rebounds against kobe. thats a given wade is a great player

against michael redd. redd had 25 points 7 rebounds and 4 assists. ok michael redd is a good chucker lets let that one slide.

against the kings. number 1 ur at home to the kings team that is going no where. number 2 tyreke evans wasn't even playing, and this lakers team was getting smoked by cassipi and udrih. but im letting that shit slide before i go further

against the grizzlies? OJ mayo got 25 points against this guy

against the raptors? bynum was the one that got them back into the game in the first place. but i'm gna let that shit slide too.

but this isn't the common trait, that players were getting points on kobe all day coz kobe wasn't playing D. the common trait is that none of these teams have hit 40 wins yet, and 40% of them aren't going to the playoffs this season.

WTF are these ****ing teams doing being competitive with the lakers in the first place. there bottom feeding teams. but thats not the part thats pissing me off about how overglorified kobe is. you want to know what is.
when it comes to big head to head matches lets see how kobe has faired against these teams.

vs dallas shoots 6-19 for 20 points
vs denver 7-17 for 19 points
vs cleveland 11-33 for 35 points. i dnt give a **** about ur 35 points u missed more shots then lebron took that game.
vs cleveland 12-31 for 30 points
vs memphis. had a great scoring game passed it 3 times the whole game and the game went to memphis
vs dallas. went 9-23
vs orlando. went 12-30 for 34 points

seriously ur going to glorify this guy for making last second shots against teams that the lakers should be blowing out, and ur not going to notice the shit defense he's playing against them or the fact he plays like shit all the time against good teams.

/rant

[gpfanz]

Somebody who speaks the truth. Phil Jackson also said that he would go with Kobe over MJ if he had to pick someone to take the last shot. Kobe already has more game-winners than MJ did throughout his career. It's about time people start taking notice. MJ dickriders like Charles Barkley are threatened that Kobe could be considered better than MJ in one category and that's why they quickly tried to dismiss Kobe's game-winners as lucky. People who matter, aka coaches in the NBA, know who's the clutchest and they'll tell it like it is. MJ can't be the best at every category. MJ dickriders need to accept reality.

End of the day, I probably will take MJ over Kobe :banana:

[jlauber]

I wouldn't out too much stock in what Gentry said. You can always find supporters for the great players.

Kobe HAS been great in the clutch. So was Michael. Here again, take a look at the 2008 Olympic Final. USA, loaded with the best players in the world, and fighting for their lives...and it was KOBE taking over at both ends of the floor. And I won't take the time to look up the game, but a few years ago, Kobe hit a three to tie a game in regulation, and a three to win in OT. Does that count for TWO???

I don't have a problem with those that claim MJ is the best "closer" ever. But Kobe HAS to be mentioned in these discussions. It's not as if MJ was FAR-AND-AWAY better than Kobe.

[Kurosawa0]

Mike did it in the Finals. Sorry, that tops any regular season clutchness.

[MakeHistory78]

Come on now.......
MJ was more clutch in the Playoffs....
Kobe maybe is in the Regular Season but the GOAT did that twice in the Finals!

[xcesswee]

ok im gna ****ing say this once.

the teams he has hit gamewinners against lets have a look at the teams they were ****ing against.

1) miami heat....yeah this team is awesome
2) milwaukee bucks.... i love my bucks but seriously
3) sacramento kings...with no one defending him
4) memphis grizzlies.... yeah go us!
5) toronto raptors.

notice one ****ing common trait?
2 of them aren't in the playoffs and 3 are bottom of the east teams. now wtf were the lakers doing losing too or tied with these teams in the first place? why does kobe in the first place have to hit a gamewinner? well lets talk about defense shall we?

against the heat wade had 26 points 9 assists and rebounds against kobe. thats a given wade is a great player

against michael redd. redd had 25 points 7 rebounds and 4 assists. ok michael redd is a good chucker lets let that one slide.

against the kings. number 1 ur at home to the kings team that is going no where. number 2 tyreke evans wasn't even playing, and this lakers team was getting smoked by cassipi and udrih. but im letting that shit slide before i go further

against the grizzlies? OJ mayo got 25 points against this guy

against the raptors? bynum was the one that got them back into the game in the first place. but i'm gna let that shit slide too.

but this isn't the common trait, that players were getting points on kobe all day coz kobe wasn't playing D. the common trait is that none of these teams have hit 40 wins yet, and 40% of them aren't going to the playoffs this season.

WTF are these ****ing teams doing being competitive with the lakers in the first place. there bottom feeding teams. but thats not the part thats pissing me off about how overglorified kobe is. you want to know what is.
when it comes to big head to head matches lets see how kobe has faired against these teams.

vs dallas shoots 6-19 for 20 points
vs denver 7-17 for 19 points
vs cleveland 11-33 for 35 points. i dnt give a **** about ur 35 points u missed more shots then lebron took that game.
vs cleveland 12-31 for 30 points
vs memphis. had a great scoring game passed it 3 times the whole game and the game went to memphis
vs dallas. went 9-23
vs orlando. went 12-30 for 34 points

seriously ur going to glorify this guy for making last second shots against teams that the lakers should be blowing out, and ur not going to notice the shit defense he's playing against them or the fact he plays like shit all the time against good teams.

/rant

Ouch.....That's what i've been noticing too. How the hell is Kobe in the situation to hit clutch shots against sh*tty teams MULTIPLE times?

[LAClipsFan33]

ok im gna ****ing say this once.

the teams he has hit gamewinners against lets have a look at the teams they were ****ing against.

1) miami heat....yeah this team is awesome
2) milwaukee bucks.... i love my bucks but seriously
3) sacramento kings...with no one defending him
4) memphis grizzlies.... yeah go us!
5) toronto raptors.

notice one ****ing common trait?
2 of them aren't in the playoffs and 3 are bottom of the east teams. now wtf were the lakers doing losing too or tied with these teams in the first place? why does kobe in the first place have to hit a gamewinner? well lets talk about defense shall we?

against the heat wade had 26 points 9 assists and rebounds against kobe. thats a given wade is a great player

against michael redd. redd had 25 points 7 rebounds and 4 assists. ok michael redd is a good chucker lets let that one slide.

against the kings. number 1 ur at home to the kings team that is going no where. number 2 tyreke evans wasn't even playing, and this lakers team was getting smoked by cassipi and udrih. but im letting that shit slide before i go further

against the grizzlies? OJ mayo got 25 points against this guy

against the raptors? bynum was the one that got them back into the game in the first place. but i'm gna let that shit slide too.

but this isn't the common trait, that players were getting points on kobe all day coz kobe wasn't playing D. the common trait is that none of these teams have hit 40 wins yet, and 40% of them aren't going to the playoffs this season.

WTF are these ****ing teams doing being competitive with the lakers in the first place. there bottom feeding teams. but thats not the part thats pissing me off about how overglorified kobe is. you want to know what is.
when it comes to big head to head matches lets see how kobe has faired against these teams.

vs dallas shoots 6-19 for 20 points
vs denver 7-17 for 19 points
vs cleveland 11-33 for 35 points. i dnt give a **** about ur 35 points u missed more shots then lebron took that game.
vs cleveland 12-31 for 30 points
vs memphis. had a great scoring game passed it 3 times the whole game and the game went to memphis
vs dallas. went 9-23
vs orlando. went 12-30 for 34 points

seriously ur going to glorify this guy for making last second shots against teams that the lakers should be blowing out, and ur not going to notice the shit defense he's playing against them or the fact he plays like shit all the time against good teams.

/rant

This.

[Allstar24]

Haters are getting SO sensitive :oldlol:

[Pursuer]

You are ridiculous. No one asks about his performances this season against contenders nor about the opposition that his team was playing against. If you're smart and you're telling us that what the hell are the Lakers doing tied or down against some of these teams, then tell me why are they the only NBA team to have only 1 loss against a below .500 team? And if you're going to screw about the defense on those plays then tell me if the shot vs Miami was easy? what about that fadeaway vs milwaukee or toronto? what about that shot vs Boston? Probably every player in the league would've made that?

[chazzy]

ok im gna ****ing say this once.

the teams he has hit gamewinners against lets have a look at the teams they were ****ing against.

1) miami heat....yeah this team is awesome
2) milwaukee bucks.... i love my bucks but seriously
3) sacramento kings...with no one defending him
4) memphis grizzlies.... yeah go us!
5) toronto raptors.

notice one ****ing common trait?
2 of them aren't in the playoffs and 3 are bottom of the east teams. now wtf were the lakers doing losing too or tied with these teams in the first place? why does kobe in the first place have to hit a gamewinner? well lets talk about defense shall we?

against the heat wade had 26 points 9 assists and rebounds against kobe. thats a given wade is a great player

against michael redd. redd had 25 points 7 rebounds and 4 assists. ok michael redd is a good chucker lets let that one slide.

against the kings. number 1 ur at home to the kings team that is going no where. number 2 tyreke evans wasn't even playing, and this lakers team was getting smoked by cassipi and udrih. but im letting that shit slide before i go further

against the grizzlies? OJ mayo got 25 points against this guy

against the raptors? bynum was the one that got them back into the game in the first place. but i'm gna let that shit slide too.

but this isn't the common trait, that players were getting points on kobe all day coz kobe wasn't playing D. the common trait is that none of these teams have hit 40 wins yet, and 40% of them aren't going to the playoffs this season.

WTF are these ****ing teams doing being competitive with the lakers in the first place. there bottom feeding teams. but thats not the part thats pissing me off about how overglorified kobe is. you want to know what is.
when it comes to big head to head matches lets see how kobe has faired against these teams.

vs dallas shoots 6-19 for 20 points
vs denver 7-17 for 19 points
vs cleveland 11-33 for 35 points. i dnt give a **** about ur 35 points u missed more shots then lebron took that game.
vs cleveland 12-31 for 30 points
vs memphis. had a great scoring game passed it 3 times the whole game and the game went to memphis
vs dallas. went 9-23
vs orlando. went 12-30 for 34 points

seriously ur going to glorify this guy for making last second shots against teams that the lakers should be blowing out, and ur not going to notice the shit defense he's playing against them or the fact he plays like shit all the time against good teams.

/rant

:oldlol: Way to not read the post right before this tangent rant. Another big bad wolf huffing and puffing about a different argument.. sad. Do you know how pathetic you guys sound? "SO WHAT IF HE MAKES GAME WINNERS LOOK AT THOSE TEAMS WHAT BUSINESS DO THEY HAVE BEING THAT CLOSE AND LOOK AT THE SGS ON THE OTHER TEAM AGAINST HIM LOL HIS DEFENSE SUCKS LOL MY GRANDMA CAN MAKE THOSE SHOTS AGAINST THOSE CRAPPY DEFENSES." You wanna talk about the Lakers not taking care of bad teams? Wrong thread, go vent somewhere else. You wanna talk about Kobe's D? Wrong thread again.

There's two spectrums of idiocy on this board, stans--------haters, and they're no better than the other.. the reason ISH gets flooded with double digit page Kobe and Jordan threads is because both the STANS and the HATERS go on ridiculous tangents that kill the board.

[zizozain]

lol. damn i didnt see that coming. Jordanlover, that just sounds gay.
*loki putting on his see-thru gown with the butt cut out*:roll:
:roll: :roll: :roll:

[Blue&Orange]

ok im gna ****ing say this once.

the teams he has hit gamewinners against lets have a look at the teams they were ****ing against.

1) miami heat....yeah this team is awesome
2) milwaukee bucks.... i love my bucks but seriously
3) sacramento kings...with no one defending him
4) memphis grizzlies.... yeah go us!
5) toronto raptors.

notice one ****ing common trait?
2 of them aren't in the playoffs and 3 are bottom of the east teams. now wtf were the lakers doing losing too or tied with these teams in the first place? why does kobe in the first place have to hit a gamewinner? well lets talk about defense shall we?

against the heat wade had 26 points 9 assists and rebounds against kobe. thats a given wade is a great player

against michael redd. redd had 25 points 7 rebounds and 4 assists. ok michael redd is a good chucker lets let that one slide.

against the kings. number 1 ur at home to the kings team that is going no where. number 2 tyreke evans wasn't even playing, and this lakers team was getting smoked by cassipi and udrih. but im letting that shit slide before i go further

against the grizzlies? OJ mayo got 25 points against this guy

against the raptors? bynum was the one that got them back into the game in the first place. but i'm gna let that shit slide too.

but this isn't the common trait, that players were getting points on kobe all day coz kobe wasn't playing D. the common trait is that none of these teams have hit 40 wins yet, and 40% of them aren't going to the playoffs this season.

WTF are these ****ing teams doing being competitive with the lakers in the first place. there bottom feeding teams. but thats not the part thats pissing me off about how overglorified kobe is. you want to know what is.
when it comes to big head to head matches lets see how kobe has faired against these teams.

vs dallas shoots 6-19 for 20 points
vs denver 7-17 for 19 points
vs cleveland 11-33 for 35 points. i dnt give a **** about ur 35 points u missed more shots then lebron took that game.
vs cleveland 12-31 for 30 points
vs memphis. had a great scoring game passed it 3 times the whole game and the game went to memphis
vs dallas. went 9-23
vs orlando. went 12-30 for 34 points

seriously ur going to glorify this guy for making last second shots against teams that the lakers should be blowing out, and ur not going to notice the shit defense he's playing against them or the fact he plays like shit all the time against good teams.

/rant
If you add the Lakers games where Kobe sit out, it becomes more funny, no game winners needed there...

Kobe = MOOAT

[TimeConfidence]

:oldlol: Way to not read the post right before this tangent rant. Another big bad wolf huffing and puffing about a different argument.. sad. Do you know how pathetic you guys sound? "SO WHAT IF HE MAKES GAME WINNERS LOOK AT THOSE TEAMS WHAT BUSINESS DO THEY HAVE BEING THAT CLOSE AND LOOK AT THE SGS ON THE OTHER TEAM AGAINST HIM LOL HIS DEFENSE SUCKS LOL MY GRANDMA CAN MAKE THOSE SHOTS AGAINST THOSE CRAPPY DEFENSES." You wanna talk about the Lakers not taking care of bad teams? Wrong thread, go vent somewhere else. You wanna talk about Kobe's D? Wrong thread again.

There's two spectrums of idiocy on this board, stans--------haters, and they're no better than the other.. the reason ISH gets flooded with double digit page Kobe and Jordan threads is because both the STANS and the HATERS go on ridiculous tangents that kill the board.
:oldlol: @ the sensitive branslowski, you changed your account name just so people will think you are objective under this account.

[chazzy]

:oldlol: @ the sensitive branslowski, you changed your account name just so people will think you are objective under this account.

Ah how convenient, an example of an obsessed stan! I present to you ISH's finest, RocketsGreatness! http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164897

I thought I was Shaqattack?

[Roundball_Rock]

In his early 30s Jordan was winning a lot more...bulls almost won 70 games back to back.

Who cares? The "career game winners" number is for an entire career and Kobe's teams have won more games on average than Jordan's.


lol. damn i didnt see that coming. Jordanlover, that just sounds gay.
*loki putting on his see-thru gown with the butt cut out*

:roll:


the question is not how many game winners Kobe made, but how many game winners he tried to make compared to how many he made? How many he missed? Factoring in all wins and losses, Jordan shoots a higher percentage than kobe. Chances are mike's clutch conversion percentage is higher than kobe's too

Fair points but I wanted to point out it is a myth that Jordan was winning far more games than Kobe and hence had less opportunities for such shots. Does anyone have the real numbers for GW's made and GW's attempted for these two? Not that it really matters imo. Even if Kobe is slightly better at taking the last shot I would rather have MJ for a NBA finals, a Game 7 or the last 10 minutes of a game.

:lol at Jordan fans STILL using Shaq against Kobe. Kobe won a ring without Shaq and reached another NBA finals without Shaq (7 of the top 10 of all-time won a ring without their best teammate, 8 made the NBA finals, and 9 made the conference finals. Guess who is the one exception?). We all know Jordan's record without Pippen...


Kobe HAS been great in the clutch. So was Michael. Here again, take a look at the 2008 Olympic Final. USA, loaded with the best players in the world, and fighting for their lives...and it was KOBE taking over at both ends of the floor.

Great point.


It's not as if MJ was FAR-AND-AWAY better than Kobe.

According to insecure MJ fans he was. Look at the tantrum they are throwing at a coach, who coached against both MJ and Kobe, saying Kobe is better than Jordan at one tiny facet of the game. Imagine what these people will do when some people start to say Kobe>Jordan overall if Kobe can get to the media designated magic number of 6. :lol

[MaxFly]

you give me my choice any player, thruout NBA history, to make the play...
.... I take Larry Bird..... and I am no fan of Bird, as a Laker fan.

Bird, more than any player I've ever seen (including MJ), was about 2 or 3 thoughts ahead of everyone else.

:cheers: :cheers:

[MaxFly]

If you're smart and you're telling us that what the hell are the Lakers doing tied or down against some of these teams, then tell me why are they the only NBA team to have only 1 loss against a below .500 team?

I wasn't aware of that... If this is true, yours is an interesting question, and it puts a new wrinkle into the debate concerning why the Lakers have so many close games against poor teams.

[Killuminati90]

I dont care at %. As a Laker fan, ive seen more Kobe Bryant`s winning shots than any other player so for me he is the best closer of all time.

[Pursuer]

I wasn't aware of that... If this is true, yours is an interesting question, and it puts a new wrinkle into the debate concerning why the Lakers have so many close games against poor teams.

No you didn't get my point. What I wanted to say is that, while other teams lose those games to below .500 teams, we win them because Kobe does the clutch stuff.

[jlauber]

Can anyone name a more dominating game, in NBA history, than the one that Kobe had on Dec. 20th, 2005, and against the 18-6 Dallas Mavs (who would go on to be in the Finals BTW)...

At the end of three quarters, the scoreboard read...Kobe 62 Dallas 61.

[Glide2keva]

Wilt's 100, Jordan's 69, Robinson's 73, Kobe's 81, Jordan's 63

[jlauber]

Kobe outscored an entire TEAM that night...at least before he left for good.

And, if you are bringing up OTHER games...you might as well mention Chamberlain's 31 other 60+ games. One of my favorites was his 78-43 game in 61-62.

[lbj23clutch]

Most of MJ's clutch shots were in the playoffs and in the finals anyway, and that's what count and that's why the man is 6-0 in the finals. Cant say the same for Kobe...

[Blue&Orange]

I dont care at %. As a Laker fan, ive seen more Kobe Bryant`s winning shots than any other player so for me he is the best closer of all time.
You've seen Kobe miss more winning shots than any other player also.

[jlauber]

You've seen Kobe miss more winning shots than any other player also.

I wonder if they called Reggie Jackson, "Mr. October" because of his strikeouts in the post-season.

[Killuminati90]

You've seen Kobe miss more winning shots than any other player also.


True, but I have selective memory.

[Johnni Gade]

You don't need to hit game winners when you're going 72-10.
+1

[RazorBaLade]

If you add the Lakers games where Kobe sit out, it becomes more funny, no game winners needed there...

Kobe = MOOAT

ORLY?????? When they were down 1 to Bos and gasol shit himself in the final seconds u dont think they needed kobe?

[Simple Jack]

Didn't Kobe at 21 take over in game 4 against Indiana? That's not being a closer....?

Jordan at 21 was doing what exactly?
Didn't Kobe aveerage 15 ppg at 37% shooting in the finals while Shaq was averaging 38/16 to save the series?

[CeoTypeDoe619]

Can anyone name a more dominating game, in NBA history, than the one that Kobe had on Dec. 20th, 2005, and against the 18-6 Dallas Mavs (who would go on to be in the Finals BTW)...

At the end of three quarters, the scoreboard read...Kobe 62 Dallas 61.

Yeah 62 points in 3 quarters outscoring Dallas imo is Way better then 81. Not only did he outscore a team if he was grimey he could have stuck around 4th quarter and got another 80 point game.
Even Wilts 100 wasnt in that dominating fashion because the other team was still keeping up in points