Derrick Rose or Rajon Rondo

[Bigsmoke]

Right now, i'm trying to put together an official list of the top 5 PGs in the game right now.

1.CP3
2.Deron williams
3.Steve Nash
4.Chauncey Billups
5. ?
Rose? Rondo?
http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab42/canelo92/385fe91cd0bcc6d1c6ae1c135344bbb3-ge.jpg


http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/dani2fly4ya/Rajon-Rondo-2.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIiTwQPPA-Y

Both players have their strengths and weaknesses. Rose is an explosive guy that would get to the rim at any giving moment and could finish stronger than a lot of centers out there while Rondo is one of the best playmakers out now who uses his speed and agility to make things happen on the offensive end. We all know that Rondo isnt a great shooter. But i think people need to know that Rondo is still young and could pick up better shooting accuracy along the way. Wasnt Jason Kidd a poor shooter when he was Rondo's age too?

I thoughts changes daily between the 2.

[beasted86]

Neither.

Tony Parker. He's dominated on the biggest possible stage... the Finals. This season his stats are comparable to both, even while this is called a "somewhat underachieving" season in comparison to last.

Parker > Rose/Rondo.

No PG in the East is in the top 5.

[Bigsmoke]

Neither.

Tony Parker. He's dominated on the biggest possible stage... the Finals. This season his stats are comparable to both, even while this is called a "somewhat underachieving" season in comparison to last.

Parker > Rose/Rondo.

No PG in the East is in the top 5.

Parker now isnt the Parker of the 2007 finals.

I know he isnt 100% healthy but Rondo and Rose are both currently playing better than Parker.

[maxwellcu]

So because Tony Parker averaged an awe-inspiring 22.0 PPG in the NBA finals to go with his breathtaking 3.25 APG three years ago and won an award that should have gone to Tim Duncan, he has to be a top 5 pg.

Give me a break.

[Alhazred]

Rose

[Killuminati90]

They are 2 different type of players, very different. Rose is more a franchise capable player, more explosive and scorer. Rondo is a better playmaker and his passing skills are better, he fits very well with the Boston Celtics. But I wouldnt start my team with him as the franchise player, I would probably choose Rose.

They will performe great matchups in the coming years.


Btw, no way this season Parker is better than Rose, hell no. Lets look a the stats:

Parker averages: 17.1 ppg, 5.7 apg, 2.5 rbp and 0.5 spg on 48 % FG and 27 % 3P.

Rose averages: 19.6 ppg, 5.9 apg, 3.7 rpg and 0.8 spg on 47 % FG and 25 % 3P.


Rose`s passes go to guys like Noah or Salmons while Parker`s go to Duncan and Ginobili, this is also an important difference.

[beasted86]

So because Tony Parker averaged an awe-inspiring 22.0 PPG in the NBA finals to go with his breathtaking 3.25 APG three years ago and won an award that should have gone to Tim Duncan, he has to be a top 5 pg.

Give me a break.
And what exactly has Rose & Rondo done to overtake him?

Rondo average 13/9 with 3 future hall of famers? That's so wildly impressive?
Rose average 20/6 on a losing team, when Parker averaged 22/7 last year on a winning one?

Parker has done it on a big stage, Parker's stats last year when he was mostly healthy were far better, and this season even while injured for some time, and adjusting to new teammates still has comparable stats, on high efficiency, with a winning team... yet he's worse than them?

It's one thing to try and make a point that it's argueable that Rose/Rondo are equal/better, but you sound like Tony Parker is downright not even in the conversation :oldlol:

[DukeDelonte13]

Rose > Rondo.

[cdorse1]

And what exactly has Rose & Rondo done to overtake him?

Rondo average 13/9 with 3 future hall of famers? That's so wildly impressive?
Rose average 20/6 on a losing team, when Parker averaged 22/7 last year on a winning one?

Parker has done it on a big stage, Parker's stats last year when he was mostly healthy were far better, and this season even while injured for some time, and adjusting to new teammates still has comparable stats, on high efficiency, with a winning team... yet he's worse than them?

It's one thing to try and make a point that it's argueable that Rose/Rondo are equal/better, but you sound like Tony Parker is downright not even in the conversation :oldlol:

Last year Parker averaged 22/7. This thread is on this year. You know the Spurs that D.Rose and the Bulls beat twice. This year Rose is playing better than Parker...simple.

[beasted86]

Last year Parker averaged 22/7. This thread is on this year. You know the Spurs that D.Rose and the Bulls beat twice. This year Rose is playing better than Parker...simple.
Anyway, I guess it's a matter of opinion... but in my opinion, Rose & Rondo haven't advanced far enough ahead of Parker, for Tony not to still get the benefit of the doubt.

[Killuminati90]

And what exactly has Rose & Rondo done to overtake him?

Rondo average 13/9 with 3 future hall of famers? That's so wildly impressive?
Rose average 20/6 on a losing team, when Parker averaged 22/7 last year on a winning one?

Parker has done it on a big stage, Parker's stats last year when he was mostly healthy were far better, and this season even while injured for some time, and adjusting to new teammates still has comparable stats, on high efficiency, with a winning team... yet he's worse than them?

It's one thing to try and make a point that it's argueable that Rose/Rondo are equal/better, but you sound like Tony Parker is downright not even in the conversation :oldlol:


First of all, your 3 hall of famers argument is weak, same thing can be said about Tony Parker.

Of course Tony Parker is in the conversation, but for me he isnt better than Rondo or Rose this season. Tony is the first scoring option in San Antonio so its fine to say he takes more shots and has the ball in his hands more time. Rondo doesnt score that much because when the big 3 is healthy it aint his work, his work is playmaking and making the team share the ball. When one of the 3 big scorers of Boston has not played (KG most of the time), Rondo has shown he can be a good point guard scorer too. Just look at last year Bulls-Celtics series. Ive seen tons of Rondo`s games were he gets 20-10 or even more, specially when one of the big 3 isnt playing.

[beasted86]

First of all, your 3 hall of famers argument is weak, same thing can be said about Tony Parker.

Of course Tony Parker is in the conversation, but for me he isnt better than Rondo or Rose this season. Tony is the first scoring option in San Antonio so its fine to say he takes more shots and has the ball in his hands more time. Rondo doesnt score that much because when the big 3 is healthy it aint his work, his work is playmaking and making the team share the ball. When one of the 3 big scorers of Boston has not played (KG most of the time), Rondo has shown he can be a good point guard scorer too. Just look at last year Bulls-Celtics series. Ive seen tons of Rondo`s games were he gets 20-10 or even more, specially when one of the big 3 isnt playing.
Tony Parker is the first option on the Spurs? What Spurs team have you been watching the last 8 years?

And what 3 hall of famers are you talking about aside from Duncan? Robinson for 2 years out of his 8? Ginobili is not a hall of famer, by far. He realistically has no chance.

Also, while KG is injured, it's pretty obvious a rotation of Rondo/Allen/Pierce/Wallace/Perkins is only a mediocre .500 quality team. Maybe Parker could do better, maybe he can't... who knows... but what's pretty obvious is Rondo and 2 hall of famers and quality rotational players are only mediocre, so Rondo isn't all that special.

[artex]

D.Rose

[Killuminati90]

Tony Parker is the first option on the Spurs? What Spurs team have you been watching the last 8 years?

And what 3 hall of famers are you talking about aside from Duncan? Robinson for 2 years out of his 8? Ginobili is not a hall of famer, by far. He realistically has no chance.

Also, while KG is injured, it's pretty obvious a rotation of Rondo/Allen/Pierce/Wallace/Perkins is only a mediocre .500 quality team. Maybe Parker could do better, maybe he can't... who knows... but what's pretty obvious is Rondo and 2 hall of famers and quality rotational players are only mediocre, so Rondo isn't all that special.


First you talk about 2007, then you say last season now this season...your using a contradiction, if you comparing Tony Parker 2007-2009 then its damn true he was and is the first scoring option in San Antonio, otherwise dont take dates and seasons when you want.

3 hall of famers Rondo has played with are not on their prime. Right now Ray Allen is at the same or even below Ginobili`s level, KG is not on his prime no more, Tim Duncan is much better PF right now, so Parker is actually playing with better "all star players" than Rondo. The only legit advantage Rondo has is playing with Pierce but yet again it is balanced because Duncan & Ginobili RIGHT NOW are better than Ray & KG RIGHT NOW, and we are comparing Rose, Rondo and Parker RIGHT NOW.

Everybody takes the "Rondo plays with 3 hall of famers..bla bla" role to spit crap at him, when this is obviously bull****. Because the same thing can be said about Parker.

[Real Men Wear Green]

And what exactly has Rose & Rondo done to overtake him?

Rondo average 13/9 with 3 future hall of famers? That's so wildly impressive?
Rose average 20/6 on a losing team, when Parker averaged 22/7 last year on a winning one?

Parker has done it on a big stage, Parker's stats last year when he was mostly healthy were far better, and this season even while injured for some time, and adjusting to new teammates still has comparable stats, on high efficiency, with a winning team... yet he's worse than them?

It's one thing to try and make a point that it's argueable that Rose/Rondo are equal/better, but you sound like Tony Parker is downright not even in the conversation :oldlol:
Rondo is a superior defender to Parker and actually averages 14.2 points and 9.7 assists, close to a double-double. And while, yes, Rondo plays with 3 future Hall of Famers, the only one of those three that could actually put up the numbers that are going to put them in the Hall right now is Pierce, and even he isn't putting up his career average in PPG. Allen is at 15.9 and Garnett is at 15. The fact of the matter is that this season, Rondo has been the team MVP.

[Bigsmoke]

Rondo is a superior defender to Parker and actually averages 14.2 points and 9.7 assists, close to a double-double. And while, yes, Rondo plays with 3 future Hall of Famers, the only one of those three that could actually put up the numbers that are going to put them in the Hall right now is Pierce, and even he isn't putting up his career average in PPG. Allen is at 15.9 and Garnett is at 15. The fact of the matter is that this season, Rondo has been the team MVP.


:applause: :applause:

[97 bulls]

its rose. i see no reason he couldnt average 10 assists if he and rondo change role along with 18 ppg. and i see no reason he couldnt step into parkers role and improve the spurs. rondo is a better defender but even that has alot to do with having good defenders behind him like pierce, garnett, and perkins. rose is much better than both and getting better.

[Rafael Delaget]

Tony Parker is the first option on the Spurs? What Spurs team have you been watching the last 8 years?

And what 3 hall of famers are you talking about aside from Duncan? Robinson for 2 years out of his 8? Ginobili is not a hall of famer, by far. He realistically has no chance.

Also, while KG is injured, it's pretty obvious a rotation of Rondo/Allen/Pierce/Wallace/Perkins is only a mediocre .500 quality team. Maybe Parker could do better, maybe he can't... who knows... but what's pretty obvious is Rondo and 2 hall of famers and quality rotational players are only mediocre, so Rondo isn't all that special.

Rondo has 4 all-stars on his team. Parker has 5 all-stars on his team (excluding himself). Rondo >>>>> Parker.

[Real Men Wear Green]

its rose. i see no reason he couldnt average 10 assists if he and rondo change role along with 18 ppg. and i see no reason he couldnt step into parkers role and improve the spurs. rondo is a better defender but even that has alot to do with having good defenders behind him like pierce, garnett, and perkins. rose is much better than both and getting better.
When has Rose shown himself to be a great passer? He's better than Rondo at scoring, sure, but he's shown no signs of being a 10 apg talent. Very few guys do that.

[beasted86]

[QUOTE=Rafael Delaget

[Rafael Delaget]

What 5 all-stars? :oldlol:

Duncan, Ginobili, Finley, McDyess, Ratliff. That's not even including Jefferson, who was pretty close to being an all-star a few times.

[TheTruth11]

Rose

[HylianNightmare]

1.CP3
2.Deron williams
3.Steve Nash
4.Chauncey Billups
5. Tony Parker
6. Rose
7. Rondo

[dbugz]

They are 2 different type of players, very different. Rose is more a franchise capable player, more explosive and scorer. Rondo is a better playmaker and his passing skills are better, he fits very well with the Boston Celtics. But I wouldnt start my team with him as the franchise player, I would probably choose Rose.



QFT :pimp:

[beasted86]

First you talk about 2007, then you say last season now this season...your using a contradiction, if you comparing Tony Parker 2007-2009 then its damn true he was and is the first scoring option in San Antonio, otherwise dont take dates and seasons when you want.

3 hall of famers Rondo has played with are not on their prime. Right now Ray Allen is at the same or even below Ginobili`s level, KG is not on his prime no more, Tim Duncan is much better PF right now, so Parker is actually playing with better "all star players" than Rondo. The only legit advantage Rondo has is playing with Pierce but yet again it is balanced because Duncan & Ginobili RIGHT NOW are better than Ray & KG RIGHT NOW, and we are comparing Rose, Rondo and Parker RIGHT NOW.

Everybody takes the "Rondo plays with 3 hall of famers..bla bla" role to spit crap at him, when this is obviously bull****. Because the same thing can be said about Parker.
What? When did I... wow.. do you lack reading comprehension? Let me try and break this down for you simple.

1. Tony Parker was NEVER the first option on the Spurs. From 2001-2009 the entire time Tony Parker has been in this league, he has never been the first option, period.

2. Whether you are comparing this season or last season, it is my opinion that Parker > Rose & Rondo. Why?

-Comparison to Rose: You try to make the argument that he has poorer teammates, but at the same time he has a losing record, and had a losing record last year before the trade where they went on a insane run to close out the season. Obviously his impact is not a top 5 PG if his team has a losing record. No other supposed top 5 PG in this league is playing on a losing team. Parker, he's proven he can be a better scorer, equal facilitator, and has done bigger things on the bigger stage.

-Comparison to Rondo: People try and make the claim that he is the MVP of the team, but once again, without KG over the past month, they have had a .500 record, and have played mediocre basketball. Sure his defense is better, but his offense is also poorer. He hasn't done nearly as well on the big stage in the playoffs. He followed his triple double series against the Bulls with a bomb 37% FG series against the Magic. It's obvious he can be a primary facilitator in this league, but he can't be the #1 scorer... I would also go as far as to say until he adds a jumper, he can never even be a #2 scoring option. Parker can be the legit #2 scorer, and primary facilitator, and be efficient on both ends.

[beasted86]

[QUOTE=Rafael Delaget

[97 bulls]

When has Rose shown himself to be a great passer? He's better than Rondo at scoring, sure, but he's shown no signs of being a 10 apg talent. Very few guys do that.
he averages 6 playing with guys like salmons, hinrich, and deng. you dont think he could get 10 playing with garnett, pierce, and allen?

[97 bulls]

What? When did I... wow.. do you lack reading comprehension? Let me try and break this down for you simple.

1. Tony Parker was NEVER the first option on the Spurs. From 2001-2009 the entire time Tony Parker has been in this league, he has never been the first option, period.

2. Whether you are comparing this season or last season, it is my opinion that Parker > Rose & Rondo. Why?

-Comparison to Rose: You try to make the argument that he has poorer teammates, but at the same time he has a losing record, and had a losing record last year before the trade where they went on a insane run to close out the season. Obviously his impact is not a top 5 PG if his team has a losing record. No other supposed top 5 PG in this league is playing on a losing team. Parker, he's proven he can be a better scorer, equal facilitator, and has done bigger things on the bigger stage.

-Comparison to Rondo: People try and make the claim that he is the MVP of the team, but once again, without KG over the past month, they have had a .500 record, and have played mediocre basketball. Sure his defense is better, but his offense is also poorer. He hasn't done nearly as well on the big stage in the playoffs. He followed his triple double series against the Bulls with a bomb 37% FG series against the Magic. It's obvious he can be a primary facilitator in this league, but he can't be the #1 scorer... I would also go as far as to say until he adds a jumper, he can never even be a #2 scoring option. Parker can be the legit #2 scorer, and primary facilitator, and be efficient on both ends.
rose would do better in both situations than they would his.

[Rafael Delaget]

This is a joke, so I'll respond to it as such.... :oldlol:

How is it a joke? Are they not all-stars? Oh right, it's irrelevant because they're past their prime and not currently playing at an all-star level. Unlike KG, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce, who are in their prime and are currently playing at a Hall of Fame level. Is that about right?

Think how great the Celtics would be if they could sign Larry Bird right now. Not only is he a Hall of Famer, he's one of the greatest Hall of Famers. They'd be hands down favorites for the NBA championship.

Kingpin
KG
Bird
Truth
Rondo

:eek:

[MMM]

It has been said before but the 3 HOF'er argument is weak considering none of the 3 are playing at that level. Over the last 2 months after his traditional slow start Rondo has shown he can increase his scoring load while maintaining his play making ability and efficiency averaging 16.5ppg 10.2apg 2.5stls on 53% shooing. However, Rose over the last few months has increased his output as well after his slow start due to injury. I just feel Rondo is a decent enough scorer that Rose scoring doesn't outweigh all the other things Rondo does at an elite level.

[Killuminati90]

What? When did I... wow.. do you lack reading comprehension? Let me try and break this down for you simple.

1. Tony Parker was NEVER the first option on the Spurs. From 2001-2009 the entire time Tony Parker has been in this league, he has never been the first option, period.

2. Whether you are comparing this season or last season, it is my opinion that Parker > Rose & Rondo. Why?

-Comparison to Rose: You try to make the argument that he has poorer teammates, but at the same time he has a losing record, and had a losing record last year before the trade where they went on a insane run to close out the season. Obviously his impact is not a top 5 PG if his team has a losing record. No other supposed top 5 PG in this league is playing on a losing team. Parker, he's proven he can be a better scorer, equal facilitator, and has done bigger things on the bigger stage.

-Comparison to Rondo: People try and make the claim that he is the MVP of the team, but once again, without KG over the past month, they have had a .500 record, and have played mediocre basketball. Sure his defense is better, but his offense is also poorer. He hasn't done nearly as well on the big stage in the playoffs. He followed his triple double series against the Bulls with a bomb 37% FG series against the Magic. It's obvious he can be a primary facilitator in this league, but he can't be the #1 scorer... I would also go as far as to say until he adds a jumper, he can never even be a #2 scoring option. Parker can be the legit #2 scorer, and primary facilitator, and be efficient on both ends.


Dont take it bad beasted, what I was only trying to say is that first you said Tony Parker is better because he got 2007 NBA Finals, than I reply to you: well maybe Rose and Rondo could average similar or better scoring numbers if they were the number 1 scoring option, then you say: Parker has not been the spurs first scoring option in 8 years....8 years? I though you were talking about 2007, 2008 and 2009? Thats not the past 8 years. And man, for what my eyes has seen, Parker has been the number 1 scoring option during this past 2-3 years, specially last season.


The argument about having better teammates was introduced by you when you said: "Rondo plays with 3 future hall of famers" so dont be bothered if I use it as an argument too when I say Rose plays with crap teammates and Parker plays with all-star teammates also.

Rondo made a great series against Chicago and screwed it up against Magic with 37 %, true, but the same thing can be said about Parker, its not the same playing against the Warriors than playing against the Mavericks.

I never said Rondo was the MVP of the Boston Celtics, I only said that he produces less points than guys like Parker or Rose because his job is not scoring, its Allen`s, KG`s and Pierce`s job to score, but when one of those 3 dont play then Rondo has proven to be capable of taking the scoring role.

[Pharcyde]

When has Rose shown himself to be a great passer? .

I think he is an good passer. 10 APG? I doubt it, but give him a guy he can pass the ball in the post to or a pick and roll player and he would be at 8 a game.
His assist numbers have gone up this month with Salmons and Kirks shooting numbers as both are starting to shoot better then they were the first two months of play.

[Killuminati90]

I think he is an good passer. 10 APG? I doubt it, but give him a guy he can pass the ball in the post to or a pick and roll player and he would be at 8 a game.
His assist numbers have gone up this month with Salmons and Kirks shooting numbers as both are starting to shoot better then they were the first two months of play.


Rose is also a very good passer, perhaps doesnt have the same playmaking skills than Rondo but he passes very well too, you said it there.


People dont understand that its not the same passing the ball to Salmons than passing the ball to Allen, its more than probably Allen is going to score so the assist goes to Rondo than Salmons scoring and the assist going to Rose. Simple as that.

["Jesus"]

Your answer is this picture: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/si/2009/writers/ian_thomsen/05/01/bulls.celtics.game.6/p1.rondo.jpg

[beasted86]

rose would do better in both situations than they would his.
Maybe... maybe not. But all we can go off of is the facts, and Parker's history. That's why I said I'm still giving him the benefit of the doubt, especially since their stats are comparable.

Rose & Rondo haven't made enough separation.

[97 bulls]

It has been said before but the 3 HOF'er argument is weak considering none of the 3 are playing at that level. Over the last 2 months after his traditional slow start Rondo has shown he can increase his scoring load while maintaining his play making ability and efficiency averaging 16.5ppg 10.2apg 2.5stls on 53% shooing. However, Rose over the last few months has increased his output as well after his slow start due to injury. I just feel Rondo is a decent enough scorer that Rose scoring doesn't outweigh all the other things Rondo does at an elite level.
but they play in totally dfferent situations. you think rondo does that on a bad team? and rose couldnt do it on a good team?

[MMM]

he averages 6 playing with guys like salmons, hinrich, and deng. you dont think he could get 10 playing with garnett, pierce, and allen?

If Rondo who is an elite passer/playmaker cant average 10 assists then why would Rose who is an average passer be able to do it??? Do people not understand playing in a half court, slow pace, isolation offence hurts Rondo's full play making potential.

[Pharcyde]

It has been said before but the 3 HOF'er argument is weak considering none of the 3 are playing at that level. Over the last 2 months after his traditional slow start Rondo has shown he can increase his scoring load while maintaining his play making ability and efficiency averaging 16.5ppg 10.2apg 2.5stls on 53% shooing. However, Rose over the last few months has increased his output as well after his slow start due to injury. I just feel Rondo is a decent enough scorer that Rose scoring doesn't outweigh all the other things Rondo does at an elite level.

The argument is correct when he's playing with the best 3 point shooter in the NBA and a couple of guys that can finish in the post. If Salmons and Kirk were shooting as well as they have been the past month or so Rose's assists would be a bit higher and even more so if he had some more bigs to throw the ball to.
He is averaging 23 ppg 6.5 apg and 5 rpg this month and had 20 ppg 6 apg and 4 rpg last month. He's just playing better then Rondo right now.

[Connoisseur]

It's excruciatingly surprising how long it's taking people to realize that Rose isn't just an elite PG right now, but an elite player... period.

[beasted86]

Dont take it bad beasted, what I was only trying to say is that first you said Tony Parker is better because he got 2007 NBA Finals, than I reply to you: well maybe Rose and Rondo could average similar or better scoring numbers if they were the number 1 scoring option, then you say: Parker has not been the spurs first scoring option in 8 years....8 years? I though you were talking about 2007, 2008 and 2009? Thats not the past 8 years. And man, for what my eyes has seen, Parker has been the number 1 scoring option during this past 2-3 years, specially last season.


The argument about having better teammates was introduced by you when you said: "Rondo plays with 3 future hall of famers" so dont be bothered if I use it as an argument too when I say Rose plays with crap teammates and Parker plays with all-star teammates also.

Rondo made a great series against Chicago and screwed it up against Magic with 37 %, true, but the same thing can be said about Parker, its not the same playing against the Warriors than playing against the Mavericks.

I never said Rondo was the MVP of the Boston Celtics, I only said that he produces less points than guys like Parker or Rose because his job is not scoring, its Allen`s, KG`s and Pierce`s job to score, but when one of those 3 dont play then Rondo has proven to be capable of taking the scoring role.
Of the past 8 seasons, Parker has only taken more FGAs than Duncan once... and that was last year... the only year he scored more than Duncan... and part of that was due to Duncan being injured/hampered for a large stretch of games last season.

[97 bulls]

If Rondo who is an elite passer/playmaker cant average 10 assists then why would Rose who is an average passer be able to do it??? Do people not understand playing in a half court, slow pace, isolation offence hurts Rondo's full play making potential.
its not like the bulls get out and run. OK maybe 8 is better. id say if hes on the celtics he averages 20 ppg and 8-9 assists.

[97 bulls]

It's excruciatingly surprising how long it's taking people to realize that Rose isn't just an elite PG right now, but an elite player... period.
isnt it though????????!!!!!!!!!! and if you ask any spurs fan or celtics fan if they would trade parker or rondo for rose, theyd do it in a heart beat.

[Killuminati90]

Of the past 8 seasons, Parker has only taken more FGAs than Duncan once... and that was last year... the only year he scored more than Duncan... and part of that was due to Duncan being injured/hampered for a large stretch of games last season.


Ok fine, im not so sure about this but I will trust you. But yet again with this you show that what I say about Rondo is true. What happened with Parker when Duncan got injured? His job was bigger and he had to have the ball more/score more so his production increased.

What happen with Rondo when KG was injured? His job was bigger and he had to have the ball more/score more so his production increased.

[thejusman1]

Injuries have set him back this season, but it I still think #5 is...

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/calderon.jpg

[MMM]

its not like the bulls get out and run. OK maybe 8 is better. id say if hes on the celtics he averages 20 ppg and 8-9 assists.

I don't think he would get enough shots on Boston to average 20ppg but his ability to take over a game would be a nice fit for Boston.

[Roundball_Rock]

It is difficult to compare them. They are both young and play the same position but their situations are polar opposites. Rondo is a much better defender and a better passer but Rose is the much better scorer. A healthy Rose has been a top 10 caliber scorer in the league and his output is only increasing as the season progresses. Does anyone ever see Rondo reaching that level?

Points Per Game

1. LeBron James-CLE 29.9
2. Carmelo Anthony-DEN 29.7
3. Kevin Durant-OKC 29.3
4. Kobe Bryant-LAL 28.3
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 27.1
6. Monta Ellis-GSW 26.1
7. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 25.1
8. Chris Bosh-TOR 23.9
9. Brandon Roy-POR 23.1
Derrick Rose since game 10 21.5
10. Joe Johnson-ATL 21.1
11. Zach Randolph-MEM 20.9
12. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 20.8
13. Corey Maggette-GSW 20.7
14. Tyreke Evans-SAC 20.7
15. Rudy Gay-MEM 20.5
16. Chris Kaman-LAC 20.1
17. Stephen Jackson-TOT 20.0
18. Tim Duncan-SAS 19.8
19. Derrick Rose-CHI 19.6
20. Carlos Boozer-UTA 19.4

This question will not really have an answer until Rondo has to carry a team that would be well below average without him. The Bulls are 21-22 right now. What would their record be without Rose? I take Rose since he has proven he can carry a team. Rondo is playing on arguably the most stacked team in the league. Could he take a team like the Bulls to 1 1/2 games behind Dwyane Wade's team halfway through a season? Maybe but we won't know until a few years from now when his HOFers become ineffective due to age and/or retire.

One thing people constantly overlook in this comparison is shooting. People take Rondo's FG % at face value. A guard who shoots 59% at FT's is hardly a great shooter and further examination reveals this. Rondo's EFG % on jumpers is 39%. That is horrendous for a guard. Rose is not a great shooter himself but he is adequate (45% and rising) and steadily improving in his second season. This is Rondo's fourth year in the league and he still is a horrible shooter. I am sure someone will say that this doesn't matter. Rondo still scores more efficiently. This thinking is flawed, though. Why? Rondo can get away with his scoring limitations on a stacked team. If he played on a team like Rose's they would be exposed. He would be forced to take more jumpers as teams would focus on him and force him to shoot midrange jumpers instead of worrying about 3 HOF'ers. This is what teams do to Rose and this is why Rose has worked so hard on his jumper. They will give him midrange J's all day and he needs to make them and lately he has been making them. Once he masters his jumper he will be nearly unstoppable as a scorer.

I will close by posing a question. Who do you think teams fear more? Rose or Rondo?

[Real Men Wear Green]

he averages 6 playing with guys like salmons, hinrich, and deng. you dont think he could get 10 playing with garnett, pierce, and allen?
Do you know what gets a pg a lot of assists? It's actually not about playing with a guy like Paul Pierce that intiates offense on his own. It's playing with guys that can finsh the shot that they're set up with. Once again, I point to the example of Mike Bibby (I've had this argument several times). Why did he drop from 8.4 to 5.0 apg when he went from a starless, 20-something win Grizzly team to the 60+ winning Kings with Webber, Peja, Christie, etc? Because they lessened his role. Playing alongside talented scorers turns a point guard into more of a complimentary player. Bibby, with Joe Johnson an All-Star, Josh Smith borderline and the Hawks now being one of the EC's better teams is only getting 4.4 apg. Another example: Steve Nash. He exploded as a passer when he went from playing with Nowitzki and Finley to Marion and STAT because guys like Marion and STAT would just finish what he created while Nowitzki and Finley did a lot of creation of their own.

Now look at Rondo. Since they got here, Pierce, Allen, and KG have been declining. Their ppgs are all receding, while Rondo's APG increases. Why? Because Rondo is being given more of the offense to carry. It's not just some random coincidence. Pierce is still the guy to create at the end of the game and Ray Allen is still the guy you want taking that shot, but the overall roll of the "Big 3" (I never liked calling them that) has been shrinking while Rondo's assists (and also points) have gone up. His success is partially about them, to be sure, Ray Allen hits that shot when Rondo finds him, as do Pierce and KG. But when a point guard gets an assist that's always the case, no matter who's finishing. So please, stop holding Rondo's teammates against him. If a pg was almost averaging 10 assists with the entire starting line-up between 12 and 19 ppg, people would normally just say he was doing a good job spreading the ball around. Rondo ought not be the exception.

[J23]

And what exactly has Rose & Rondo done to overtake him?

Rondo average 13/9 with 3 future hall of famers? That's so wildly impressive?
Rose average 20/6 on a losing team, when Parker averaged 22/7 last year on a winning one?

Parker has done it on a big stage, Parker's stats last year when he was mostly healthy were far better, and this season even while injured for some time, and adjusting to new teammates still has comparable stats, on high efficiency, with a winning team... yet he's worse than them?

It's one thing to try and make a point that it's argueable that Rose/Rondo are equal/better, but you sound like Tony Parker is downright not even in the conversation :oldlol:
Watch him and you would know. His game isn't about scoring. He uses what he has and does other things.

[97 bulls]

Do you know what gets a pg a lot of assists? It's actually not about playing with a guy like Paul Pierce that intiates offense on his own. It's playing with guys that can finsh the shot that they're set up with. Once again, I point to the example of Mike Bibby (I've had this argument several times). Why did he drop from 8.4 to 5.0 apg when he went from a starless, 20-something win Grizzly team to the 60+ winning Kings with Webber, Peja, Christie, etc? Because they lessened his role. Playing alongside talented scorers turns a point guard into more of a complimentary player. Bibby, with Joe Johnson an All-Star, Josh Smith borderline and the Hawks now being one of the EC's better teams is only getting 4.4 apg. Another example: Steve Nash. He exploded as a passer when he went from playing with Nowitzki and Finley to Marion and STAT because guys like Marion and STAT would just finish what he created while Nowitzki and Finley did a lot of creation of their own.

Now look at Rondo. Since they got here, Pierce, Allen, and KG have been declining. Their ppgs are all receding, while Rondo's APG increases. Why? Because Rondo is being given more of the offense to carry. It's not just some random coincidence. Pierce is still the guy to create at the end of the game and Ray Allen is still the guy you want taking that shot, but the overall roll of the "Big 3" (I never liked calling them that) has been shrinking while Rondo's assists (and also points) have gone up. His success is partially about them, to be sure, Ray Allen hits that shot when Rondo finds him, as do Pierce and KG. But when a point guard gets an assist that's always the case, no matter who's finishing. So please, stop holding Rondo's teammates against him. If a pg was almost averaging 10 assists with the entire starting line-up between 12 and 19 ppg, people would normally just say he was doing a good job spreading the ball around. Rondo ought not be the exception.
actually, bibby is a bad example. sac ran their offense through CWeb and divac. hell bibby got his shots off of the two. bibby wasnt a pg in the traditional sense that hes setting people up. and hes not the same player now in atlanta that he was in memphis.

and i dont think people are penalizing rondo for playing with a stacked team. but when you allude to him being a better passer because rondo gets more assist then i have to respond. dont penalize rose for being on a bad team. you must look at the big picture. we all know how assists are made. and know that the better scorers you have the better your chances of getting assists.

[nbastatus]

rose

[Real Men Wear Green]

actually, bibby is a bad example. sac ran their offense through CWeb and divac. hell bibby got his shots off of the two. bibby wasnt a pg in the traditional sense that hes setting people up. and hes not the same player now in atlanta that he was in memphis.
Did you see where I wrote that great teammates make pgs complimentary? Do you think that Pierce didn't have the same effect on every point he's ever played with?


and i dont think people are penalizing rondo for playing with a stacked team. but when you allude to him being a better passer because rondo gets more assist then i have to respond. dont penalize rose for being on a bad team. you must look at the big picture. we all know how assists are made. and know that the better scorers you have the better your chances of getting assists.So why didn't Derek Fisher get a lot of assists? Or Tony Parker? It doesn't work that way. Truly great scorers don't give their pgs any advantage in apg because they create instead of the point guard.

[MMM]

actually, bibby is a bad example. sac ran their offense through CWeb and divac. hell bibby got his shots off of the two. bibby wasnt a pg in the traditional sense that hes setting people up. and hes not the same player now in atlanta that he was in memphis.

and i dont think people are penalizing rondo for playing with a stacked team. but when you allude to him being a better passer because rondo gets more assist then i have to respond. dont penalize rose for being on a bad team. you must look at the big picture. we all know how assists are made. and know that the better scorers you have the better your chances of getting assists.

and Boston doesn't run their offence through Pierce/Garnett???

[97 bulls]

and Boston doesn't run their offence through Pierce/Garnett???
not like the kings did. bibby had a jumpshot.

[97 bulls]

Did you see where I wrote that great teammates make pgs complimentary? Do you think that Pierce didn't have the same effect on every point he's ever played with?

So why didn't Derek Fisher get a lot of assists? Or Tony Parker? It doesn't work that way. Truly great scorers don't give their pgs any advantage in apg because they create instead of the point guard.
neither fisher or parker are traditional pgs. bad example. and your right about greeat scorers. but somehow rondo is getting the assists. i mean, hes not passing to himself is he?

[Real Men Wear Green]

neither fisher or parker are traditional pgs. bad example. and your right about greeat scorers. but somehow rondo is getting the assists. i mean, hes not passing to himself is he?
Parker is no less of a traditional pg than Rose. And if you don't like the example of Fisher, look at how GP's stats dipped with Shaq, Kobe, and Malone. Did MJ ever have a high-assist point guard? Or Olajuwon? No, duh, of course Rondo isn't passing to himself, but the fact that no Celtic is up there in the scoring leaders should tell you that the offense isn't about the big guns scoring all the points.

[97 bulls]

Parker is no less of a traditional pg than Rose. And if you don't like the example of Fisher, look at how GP's stats dipped with Shaq, Kobe, and Malone. Did MJ ever have a high-assist point guard? Or Olajuwon? No, duh, of course Rondo isn't passing to himself, but the fact that no Celtic is up there in the scoring leaders should tell you that the offense isn't about the big guns scoring all the points.
payton was in the twighlight of his career when he got to LA. and yes the celtics dont have scoring leaders, but they have more scorers than the bulls. why are the celtics contending for a championship and the bulls the 5 to 8 seed? rose is just more talented than rondo bro. you would honestly decline if you were the celtics GM and was offered rose for rondo?:hammerhead: :hammerhead: :hammerhead:

[Real Men Wear Green]

The Celtics are better than Chi because they're infinitely superior on D and have a cohesive offensive unit. As for Rose vs. Rondo? I'm not sure about that. Who I would want would depend on who else was on the team, whether the squad needs as many points as possible or a floor general to ensure offensive cohesion. I just wanted to straighten things out in regards to the misguided idea that Rose could average 10 assists. He couldn't.

[Bigsmoke]

Injuries have set him back this season, but it I still think #5 is...

http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/calderon.jpg

HELL NO!!!!

[Bigsmoke]

after thinking about out and reading a few opinions.. imma say

Rose because of what he has done to the Bulls. Rondo is an important peace on the Celtics but they would be very good without him. Rose is also the guard i rather have on the court in clutch situations. Rondo couldnt make his free throws. I think i would rather have Rose passing abilities than Rondo's shooting ANYDAY.

so as for right now

Rose > Rondo

[rfm767]

Rose

[spree43]

Baron Davis? Where's the love?

I think Rondo has been better this year, Rose could be better next year. People talk of Rose stepping up in the last month, Rondo is producing 18 points 4.5 rebounds 10 assists and 2.2 steals in the last month

[Cermet]

Right now, i'm trying to put together an official list of the top 5 PGs in the game right now.

1.CP3
2.Deron williams
3.Steve Nash
4.Chauncey Billups
5. ?
Rose? Rondo?
http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab42/canelo92/385fe91cd0bcc6d1c6ae1c135344bbb3-ge.jpg


http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t131/dani2fly4ya/Rajon-Rondo-2.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIiTwQPPA-Y

Both players have their strengths and weaknesses. Rose is an explosive guy that would get to the rim at any giving moment and could finish stronger than a lot of centers out there while Rondo is one of the best playmakers out now who uses his speed and agility to make things happen on the offensive end. We all know that Rondo isnt a great shooter. But i think people need to know that Rondo is still young and could pick up better shooting accuracy along the way. Wasnt Jason Kidd a poor shooter when he was Rondo's age too?

I thoughts changes daily between the 2.

Why both of the pictures are when they are doing something on dragic ? :D

[MMM]

I know Rose has stepped up this month avg over 23ppg/6apg on near 50% shooting but hasn't Rondo been equally as impressive??? The only thing Rose has on Rondo is scoring but Rondo has shown he can carry a scoring load while still being an elite play maker. Rondo's efficiency this month has been off the charts shooting at a 56% clip from the field mainly because he can actually shoot from 15ft and in now. So does the 6ppg difference in Rose's favor off set the play making, efficiency, and defense???

[G.O.A.T]

While I think both Rose and Rondo will overtake Nash, Billups and Parker very soon, they haven't yet.

Rondo has the better resume, but I'd take Rose over him if I had a choice right now to build a team around. The only exceeption is a situation like the Celtics with an established perimeter and post scorer (kind of) in place.

[ChuckOakley]

I'd say Rondo is the better PG right now, though next season may be different.

I haven't seen much of TP this season, but I still think he's a notch above Rondo, but maybe not.

[ProfessorMurder]

Rooooooooooooonnnnnnnnddddddddoooooooooooo!

[Bigsmoke]

cough cough

[jasonresno]

Put Rondo on the bulls and what happens? Deng and Noah get suddenly better? Nah. Rondo would be forced to score and he wouldn't be able to.

Put Rose on the celtics and what do you think happens? Rose assists per game go way up and he's still a better scorer than Rondo.

Rose > Rondo.

[aem]

I love and appreciate both Rondo and Rose. The NBA is in good hands with these two.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Put Rondo on the bulls and what happens? Deng and Noah get suddenly better? Nah. Rondo would be forced to score and he wouldn't be able to.

Put Rose on the celtics and what do you think happens? Rose assists per game go way up and he's still a better scorer than Rondo.

Rose > Rondo.
No, that's not what I think happens. The "Point" of Rose's hypothetical apg has been beaten to death, and one win tonight doesn't change that. He averages 6. There is no team on which he is going to average 10.

[JimmyConway]

i think its become quite clear that rose>rondo. I mean what does rondo do better? average 3-4 more assists? gimme a break. rose is averaging 6 assissts with absolutely laughable shooters. hes averaging the same amount he did last year when he had BEN GORDON. if gordon or another sharpshooter were here rose would be gettin around 8 assists this year no doubt. lets not forget rondos teammates. he might be the better defender as well but rose is getting better. rose is the unquestioned leader of the bulls, something has to be said about that.

[Pharcyde]

No, that's not what I think happens. The "Point" of Rose's hypothetical apg has been beaten to death, and one win tonight doesn't change that. He averages 6. There is no team on which he is going to average 10.

He'll average 9.8.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I have already shot down the "Rose would get so many more assists" argument numerous times. I even showed what's wrong with it in this very thread. Rose is a scoring point guard. That is how he plays, he is shoot (or slash) first. Guys like that don't pile up assists. And that's part of why Gordon's departure had no effect on his apg (the other part being, as mentioned, Gordon is a scorer who creates much of his own offense). 8+ assists per game is a stat generally accomplished by pass-first pgs. At his peak, when he has a good grasp on the game Rose may do that but right now he's a score-first guy. And he's very good at it, to the point where there are games he dominates with his scoring ability. But not with his passing because that's just not his strength.

[Real Men Wear Green]

He'll average 9.8.
Great point. Really.

[burnsy87]

I have already shot down the "Rose would get so many more assists" argument numerous times. I even showed what's wrong with it in this very thread. Rose is a scoring point guard. That is how he plays, he is shoot (or slash) first. Guys like that don't pile up assists. And that's part of why Gordon's departure had no effect on his apg (the other part being, as mentioned, Gordon is a scorer who creates much of his own offense). 8+ assists per game is a stat generally accomplished by pass-first pgs. At his peak, when he has a good grasp on the game Rose may do that but right now he's a score-first guy. And he's very good at it, to the point where there are games he dominates with his scoring ability. But not with his passing because that's just not his strength.

Half of Gordons shots in any given game are of the catch and shoot variety. I would hardly call that creating your own shot.

[JimmyConway]

I have already shot down the "Rose would get so many more assists" argument numerous times. I even showed what's wrong with it in this very thread. Rose is a scoring point guard. That is how he plays, he is shoot (or slash) first. Guys like that don't pile up assists. And that's part of why Gordon's departure had no effect on his apg (the other part being, as mentioned, Gordon is a scorer who creates much of his own offense). 8+ assists per game is a stat generally accomplished by pass-first pgs. At his peak, when he has a good grasp on the game Rose may do that but right now he's a score-first guy. And he's very good at it, to the point where there are games he dominates with his scoring ability. But not with his passing because that's just not his strength.
eh everything you just said is opinionated and arguable so ill just stay out to avoid a lengthy argument. lol. rose>rondo. suck it boston.

[Pharcyde]

I have already shot down the "Rose would get so many more assists" argument numerous times. I even showed what's wrong with it in this very thread. Rose is a scoring point guard. That is how he plays, he is shoot (or slash) first. .

Which is completely incorrect. Derrick Rose plays extremely passive and probably doesn't shoot enough. He's way more of a willing passer then what some of his detractors say he is.


I don't think it's odd to say that he could pretty easily average 8-9 a game if he had a pick and roll big man and a spot up shooter.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Half of Gordons shots in any given game are of the catch and shoot variety. I would hardly call that creating your own shot.
Did I say all of his points were self-made? I said, "Gordon is a scorer who creates much of his own offense." Are we clear on the difference?

[Real Men Wear Green]

eh everything you just said is opinionated and arguable so ill just stay out to avoid a lengthy argument. lol.
Thank you, and, "whatever."
Which is completely incorrect. Derrick Rose plays extremely passive and probably doesn't shoot enough. He's way more of a willing passer then what some of his detractors say he is.
So, this extremely passive point guard manages to average 17.5 shots per game. I wonder what he would do if he was "aggressive?"

[Pharcyde]

Averages 17.5 shots on a team whose 2nd "option" is Luol Deng who's primary game is to cut and shoot transition 20 footers.
If you think Rose is a score first player, simply put, you don't watch him play much.

[Crystallas]

I'll take the 20/6/4 21 year old that still is improving in all areas over a 24 year old that thrives within a system and may be as good as they ever will be. And Tony Parker in 2010 in this conversation? Maybe 2009, Definately 2007, not 2010.

[JimmyConway]

Thank you, and, "whatever."
So, this extremely passive point guard manages to average 17.5 shots per game. I wonder what he would do if he was "aggressive?"
yeah its probably because he has no choice. that's what i call stepping up and realizing your teammates just cant hit buckets so hes doing what he needs to do to win.

[burnsy87]

Thank you, and, "whatever."
So, this extremely passive point guard manages to average 17.5 shots per game. I wonder what he would do if he was "aggressive?"

The Bulls would probably have won 5-6 more games this year.

Last year and early this season, Rose was extremely passive. When he realized this team was garbage without him as the first scoring option, he began shooting more.

He has the ability to be a distributor. Do you notice the fact that every single time he broke towards the baseline tonight, he got a double team and kicked it to a WIDE open guy at the elbow...over...and over...and over..and over. They run the same freaking play 9 times out of 10.

Did you notice that Noah started taking that shot from the elbow? You know why? Because he realized that he will have that shot all day, every single game, for the rest of his career as a Bull. He will have that shot because Rose creates it for him...over...and over...and over again.

[JimmyConway]

Averages 17.5 shots on a team whose 2nd "option" is Luol Deng who's primary game is to cut and shoot transition 20 footers.
If you think Rose is a score first player, simply put, you don't watch him play much.
quoted for truth.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Averages 17.5 shots on a team whose 2nd "option" is Luol Deng who's primary game is to cut and shoot transition 20 footers.
If you think Rose is a score first player, simply put, you don't watch him play much.
This is humorous. If he didn't drop 39 on the Cs tonight we wouldn't even be having this argument. He averages over 20 points. He's a scorer. And really, there's (so far) nothing wrong with that. His team needs him to put the ball in the hole and he does it well. I'm sure you Bulls fans do watch Rose more than me, but I've still seen him numerous times, and so far he's shown a lot more Iverson to his game than Kidd. And again: There's nothing wrong with that. But you Bulls fans just can't let it be. Why? You are arguing based on absolutely nothing. He has done nothing in the NBA to suggest that he is capable of being amongst the league leaders in assists. He has done plenty in the NBA to show that he's one of the best scoring pgs in the game. These are just the facts. Your arguing otherwise is pointless.

[JimmyConway]

well were just sayin hes better than your boy rondo.

[Real Men Wear Green]

The Bulls would probably have won 5-6 more games this year.

Last year and early this season, Rose was extremely passive. When he realized this team was garbage without him as the first scoring option, he began shooting more.

He has the ability to be a distributor. Do you notice the fact that every single time he broke towards the baseline tonight, he got a double team and kicked it to a WIDE open guy at the elbow...over...and over...and over..and over. They run the same freaking play 9 times out of 10.

Did you notice that Noah started taking that shot from the elbow? You know why? Because he realized that he will have that shot all day, every single game, for the rest of his career as a Bull. He will have that shot because Rose creates it for him...over...and over...and over again.
Thus making him the first player in NBA history to ever drive and kick, right?

If every time a pg hit an open (or semi-open) teammate for a shot the ball went in the league leaders in APG would be up in the 20s. But most players fall between 40-50% on field goals, and that includes open lay-ups. Life can be unfair like that.

[NuggetsFan]

I still got Rondo higher. Rose is close tho.

[Crystallas]

This is humorous. If he didn't drop 39 on the Cs tonight we wouldn't even be having this argument. He averages over 20 points. He's a scorer. And really, there's (so far) nothing wrong with that. His team needs him to put the ball in the hole and he does it well. I'm sure you Bulls fans do watch Rose more than me, but I've still seen him numerous times, and so far he's shown a lot more Iverson to his game than Kidd. And again: There's nothing wrong with that. But you Bulls fans just can't let it be. Why? You are arguing based on absolutely nothing. He has done nothing in the NBA to suggest that he is capable of being amongst the league leaders in assists. He has done plenty in the NBA to show that he's one of the best scoring pgs in the game. These are just the facts. Your arguing otherwise is pointless.

Ainge would trade Rondo for Rose in a heartbeat.

[Real Men Wear Green]

well were just sayin hes better than your boy rondo.
I don't really care about that. I've already admitted that he might be, although Rondo has his nights as well. I'm just arguing against the baseless assumption that he's a better passer. He is not.

[Go Getter]

Derrick Rose stuck some pretty clingy defense tonight including blocking Rondo's shot once again.

It's pretty clear.

Rose>Rondo

[Real Men Wear Green]

Ainge would trade Rondo for Rose in a heartbeat.
Which you gathered from all the conversations you've had with Ainge on the subject, right?

Rose played very well tonight. He got the better of Rondo on both ends of the floor, and by a wide margin. Kudos. But you all seem to have forgotten that Rondo averaged a triple-double on him over a whole series just last season.

[jasonresno]

This is humorous. If he didn't drop 39 on the Cs tonight we wouldn't even be having this argument. He averages over 20 points. He's a scorer. And really, there's (so far) nothing wrong with that. His team needs him to put the ball in the hole and he does it well. I'm sure you Bulls fans do watch Rose more than me, but I've still seen him numerous times, and so far he's shown a lot more Iverson to his game than Kidd. And again: There's nothing wrong with that. But you Bulls fans just can't let it be. Why? You are arguing based on absolutely nothing. He has done nothing in the NBA to suggest that he is capable of being amongst the league leaders in assists. He has done plenty in the NBA to show that he's one of the best scoring pgs in the game. These are just the facts. Your arguing otherwise is pointless.

You take 3 future HOFs off of the Celtics and replace them with guys like Luol Deng and Taj Gibson and I bet Rondos APGs drop like a rock annnnd that's the only thing he's got on Rose.

Rondo doesn't make the people around him better. He is better because of them. Rondo =/= Jason Kidd in that category. Rondo is a lousy shooting PG who makes his living passing the ball to future HOFers. DRose is a 2nd year All Star rookie who can get to the basket at will, finish above the rim, and take a game over...and this is all without having any big talents beside him (of the Garnett/Pierce variety). You put Bosh down low and I am 100% certain those assists that Rose loses on bricks put up by Noah/Deng will start to add up.

I guess my point is: DRose is a game changer and Rondo is a game manager who excels because of his cast.

This is my last post on the subject I just hate the idea that you've somehow proven anything to anyone outside of the color of the koolaid you drink.

[Undisputed]

I hate this argument so much.

[burnsy87]

Thus making him the first player in NBA history to ever drive and kick, right?

If every time a pg hit an open (or semi-open) teammate for a shot the ball went in the league leaders in APG would be up in the 20s. But most players fall between 40-50% on field goals, and that includes open lay-ups. Life can be unfair like that.


So you are saying that every PG in the NBA draws a double teamm anytime he leaves the top of the key?

OK.

[JimmyConway]

theres only one boston fan in this thread right now and everyone else is a chicago fan. lol. go bullz.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You take 3 future HOFs off of the Celtics and replace them with guys like Luol Deng and Taj Gibson and I bet Rondos APGs drop like a rock annnnd that's the only thing he's got on Rose.

Rondo doesn't make the people around him better. He is better because of them. Rondo =/= Jason Kidd in that category. Rondo is a lousy shooting PG who makes his living passing the ball to future HOFers. DRose is a 2nd year All Star rookie who can get to the basket at will, finish above the rim, and take a game over...and this is all without having any big talents beside him (of the Garnett/Pierce variety). You put Bosh down low and I am 100% certain those assists that Rose loses on bricks put up by Noah/Deng will start to add up.

I guess my point is: DRose is a game changer and Rondo is a game manager who excels because of his cast.

This is my last post on the subject I just hate the idea that you've somehow proven anything to anyone outside of the color of the koolaid you drink.
More hypothetical nonsense based on no proof whatsoever beyond your own useless guessing. TY for nothing.

[HisAirness3]

I would have said Rondo earlier in the season, but It's Rose now.....I have no clue where Rondo has been since the all-star game, but it's definitely not the same place Rose has been. Rose has been stepping it up since the all-star game, while Rondo has done to complete opposite and took a step down. The answer is Derrick Rose.

And for future references, Rondo doesn't have as much weapons as people realize. This isn't two years ago, when he had three HOFers playing at their peak.

[Real Men Wear Green]

So you are saying that every PG in the NBA draws a double teamm anytime he leaves the top of the key?

OK.
No, I didn't say that at all. But that is something that will happen to a guy, like Rose, that is a score-first guard. Teams are actually afraid to double great passing pgs because they hurt them by finding the open man. But if a guy is out there to score, you want to make him give the ball up and force someone else to beat you.

[jasonresno]

More hypothetical nonsense based on no proof whatsoever beyond your own useless guessing. TY for nothing.
I find it profound that people who clearly have nothing intelligent to say seem deadset on screaming it at the world.

[Go Getter]

And for future references, Rondo doesn't have as much weapons as people realize. This isn't two years ago, when he had three HOFers playing at their peak.


I agree that the three HOF excuse is lame because they are all over the hill. But as far as scoring/shooting [helping a PG rack up assists] KG/Allen/Pierce>>Deng/Kirk/Noah without question.

[pete's montreux]

theres only one boston fan in this thread right now and everyone else is a chicago fan. lol. go bullz.

That's because this thread comes up once a week.

[Meticode]

At this point Derrick Rose is my pick. You can see him steadily improving when he's fully healthy. And while Rondo has improved aspects of his game his jumpshot and freethrow shooting hasn't improved at all really to me. I mean c'mon Rondo, what's so hard about shooting 70-75% from the damn line man?

[Real Men Wear Green]

I find it profound that people who clearly have nothing intelligent to say seem deadset on screaming it at the world.
Which is why I appreciate the fact that you've typed your posts instead. Again: Thank you for nothing.

[jasonresno]

Which is why I appreciate the fact that you've typed your posts instead. Again: Thank you for nothing.
Someones awfully ornery. You feelin' the vice grip of playoff elimination already? Well, now that KG/Allen/Pierce are over the hill, and obviously not a boon to the All Star Rondo, it's good you'll have Rajon to hold this team together and lead them to many championships in the imminent future :oldlol:

It's been fun pal. Cling to those better days and look forward to the era of Rajon Rondo, may he lead your team to many championships.

It just sucks that my Bulls are stuck with Rose and whatever FA they pick up in the offseason. /slitwrist

[Real Men Wear Green]

Well, if you want to go there, I like my Cs chances vs. Miami (I think that's the opponent) better than the Bulls vs. the Cavs. You really don't have much room to brag when your team is the 8th seed. And didn't you say you were done posting? Whatever though.

[jasonresno]

Well, if you want to go there, I like my Cs chances vs. Miami (I think that's the opponent) better than the Bulls vs. the Cavs. You really don't have much room to brag when your team is the 8th seed. And didn't you say you were done posting? Whatever though.
You proved my point. You guys just got destroyed by an 8th seed team. The Celtics are a lie. The "dynasty" is over. The team is crumbling. The Celtics have turned into that team that makes the playoffs year in/year out but nobody expects to do anything once inside there: and for good reason.

And you're right: I did say I would quit posting but pointing out the stupidity of others attracts me like a bug to a light bulb.

[Derek Zoolander]

Rondo and his stats-and that's the only thing good about Rondo, is a product of playing with 2 hofers and 1 possible hofer

Derek Rose should be the only answer in this thread.

[Meticode]

If they meet I hope it's almost as good as last year's Celtics/Bulls series. That shit was amazing to watch.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You proved my point. You guys just got destroyed by an 8th seed team. The Celtics are a lie.
"Destroyed?" They lost a game. It happens in the course of a season. Big deal. Will the Cs win the Championship? Probably not. But why the fan of a team that's in the 8th seed and struggling to make .500 would bring up winning is beyond me. If Bosh didn't get hurt you wouldn't even have that much.
And you're right: I did say I would quit postingOk. Just wanted to point that out.

[jasonresno]

"Destroyed?" They lost a game. It happens in the course of a season. Big deal. Will the Cs win the Championship? Probably not. But why the fan of a team that's in the 8th seed and struggling to make .500 would bring up winning is beyond me. If Bosh didn't get hurt you wouldn't even have that much.

****in LOOOOL. Is the guy who "hates hypothetical" bringing up a hypothetical situation?

Brother, it's past your bed time.

[JimmyConway]

jason.. you have become my favorite poster here hahaha but yeah if the bulls could pull off a win in charlotte i would hope for the cavs series to be competitive throughout. a win or two and i would be happy. that would definitely lure some big names here.

[jasonresno]

jason.. you have become my favorite poster here hahaha but yeah if the bulls could pull off a win in charlotte i would hope for the cavs series to be competitive throughout. a win or two and i would be happy. that would definitely lure some big names here.
haha thank you. i just wanna see the bulls make it in there. there's like a .000001 percent chance they'll really do anything but I think anytime you put a guy like D-Rose on the center stage in front of the mainstream media: it's good for both him and the organization.

[Real Men Wear Green]

That's dumb. Before Bosh went down the Raptors were ahead. After they lost him they couldn't win a game. All fact.

[Derek Zoolander]

****in LOOOOL. Is the guy who "hates hypothetical" bringing up a hypothetical situation?

Brother, it's past your bed time.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Meticode]

Rondo and his stats-and that's the only thing good about Rondo, is a product of playing with 2 hofers and 1 possible hofer

Is there any players that you know of that have averaged 20PPG for their careers while playing at least 10 seasons in the NBA and not made it to the Hall of Fame? Just an honest question, becuase I'm pretty sure they're all going to make it...

Ray Allen: 45% FG%, 40% 3P%, 89% FT%, 4.3 RPG, 3.7 APG, 1.2 SPG, 20.5 PPG

Paul Pierce: 44% FG%, 37% 3P%, 80% FT%, 5.1 RPG, 3.8 APG, 1.5 SPG, 22.5 PPG

Kevin Garnett: 50% FG%, 28% 3P%, 79% FT%, 10.8 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 19.8 PPG

...I'm assuming you're saying the definite ones going are Pierce and Garnett. Obviously Allen is the weaker of the 3 players, but I don't think there's anyway he doesn't go to the Hall of Fame. Just my opinion.

[burnsy87]

That's dumb. Before Bosh went down the Raptors were ahead. After they lost him they couldn't win a game. All fact.

They couldn't win games before he got hurt. Your logic is flawed.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Is there any players that you know of that have averaged 20PPG for their careers while playing at least 10 seasons in the NBA and not made it to the Hall of Fame? Just an honest question, becuase I'm pretty sure they're all going to make it...

Ray Allen: 45% FG%, 40% 3P%, 89% FT%, 4.3 RPG, 3.7 APG, 1.2 SPG, 20.5 PPG

Paul Pierce: 44% FG%, 37% 3P%, 80% FT%, 5.1 RPG, 3.8 APG, 1.5 SPG, 22.5 PPG

Kevin Garnett: 50% FG%, 28% 3P%, 79% FT%, 10.8 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 19.8 PPG

...I'm assuming you're saying the definite ones going are Pierce and Garnett. Obviously Allen is the weaker of the 3 players, but I don't think there's anyway he doesn't go to the Hall of Fame. Just my opinion.
Don't get the troll started, please. Manu's ass recently hit him with a restraining order and he's been having a bad week since.

[Derek Zoolander]

Is there any players that you know of that have averaged 20PPG for their careers while playing at least 10 seasons in the NBA and not made it to the Hall of Fame? Just an honest question, becuase I'm pretty sure they're all going to make it...

Ray Allen: 45% FG%, 40% 3P%, 89% FT%, 4.3 RPG, 3.7 APG, 1.2 SPG, 20.5 PPG

Paul Pierce: 44% FG%, 37% 3P%, 80% FT%, 5.1 RPG, 3.8 APG, 1.5 SPG, 22.5 PPG

Kevin Garnett: 50% FG%, 28% 3P%, 79% FT%, 10.8 RPG, 4.2 APG, 1.4 SPG, 1.6 BPG, 19.8 PPG

...I'm assuming you're saying the definite ones going are Pierce and Garnett. Obviously Allen is the weaker of the 3 players, but I don't think there's anyway he doesn't go to the Hall of Fame. Just my opinion.
Spencer Haywood, Sidney Moncrief, Bernard King, Dennis Johnson all have similar or better stats as Ray Ray, I think Pierce will get it just because his finals MVP-Ray Ray, he might not get in.

[Meticode]

Don't get the troll started, please. Manu's ass recently hit him with a restraining order and he's been having a bad week since.
You know, I honestly didn't mean too. I was just looking for a good conversation and wondering why he though one of them would "possibly" make it, then after I posted it I realized it was in the Rondo/Rose thread and I'm like "Damn, I'm way off base here."

[Undisputed]

That's dumb. Before Bosh went down the Raptors were ahead. After they lost him they couldn't win a game. All fact.

Before the Joakim, Deng, and Rose went down, the Bulls were on their way to surpassing the Raptors for the 5th seed.

Just trying to point out that the Raptors injuries shouldn't be in the discussion when in comparison to the Bulls.

[Real Men Wear Green]

They couldn't win games before he got hurt. Your logic is flawed.
They were 38-38 before he got hurt and have gone 1-4 since. Please stop arguing with reality.

[Derek Zoolander]

They were 38-38 before he got hurt and have gone 1-4 since. Please stop arguing with reality.
39-42 is not very different from 38-38, stop being retarded.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Before the Joakim, Deng, and Rose went down, the Bulls were on their way to surpassing the Raptors for the 5th seed.
"On their way?" I will admit to genuinely not remembering this, and I am willing to believe you, but would not your phrasing imply that they had not actually passed them at that point?

[Undisputed]

"On their way?" I will admit to genuinely not remembering this, and I am willing to believe you, but would not your phrasing imply that they had not actually passed them at that point?

Read my edit.

And "On their way" means damn near, like a game back. Might've been a half game back.

[burnsy87]

They were 38-38 before he got hurt and have gone 1-4 since. Please stop arguing with reality.


Sun 07 vs Philadelphia L 101-114
Tue 09 @ LA Lakers L 107-109
Wed 10 @ Sacramento L 90-113
Sat 13 @ Golden State L 112-124
Sun 14 @ Portland L 98-109
Wed 17 vs Atlanta W 106-105
Fri 19 vs Oklahoma City L 89-115
Sat 20 @ New Jersey W 100-90
Mon 22 @ Minnesota W 106-100
Wed 24 vs Utah L 87-113
Fri 26 vs Denver L 96-97
Sun 28 @ Miami L 94-97
Mon 29 @ Charlotte W 103-101
Wed 31 vs LA Clippers W 114-92
April Opponent Result
Sat 03 @ Philadelphia W 128-123
Sun 04 vs Golden State L 112-113


Yeah, they had such a great run leading up to bosh being hurt.

6-10 is so amazing.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Just trying to point out that the Raptors injuries shouldn't be in the discussion when in comparison to the Bulls.
To me there isn't much difference, really they're both teams that fight to stay around .500. This whole thing was started when a Bulls fan wanted to talk to me about how the Cs weren't winning anything, so I pointed out the fact that the Bulls lucked out with the Bosh injury, else they wouldn't even be the 8th seed and headed for an ass-kicking from the Cavs and more dancing from LeBron James.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Yeah, they had such a great run leading up to bosh being hurt.

6-10 is so amazing.
The season is full of streaks, that's just basketball. The importance of a team losing it's best player, who was giving them 24 points and 10 rebounds, for the final few games with a playoff berth at stake should not be denied. Are you really going to argue that losing Bosh made no difference? Because that would be stupid.

[Undisputed]

To me there isn't much difference, really they're both teams that fight to stay around .500. This whole thing was started when a Bulls fan wanted to talk to me about how the Cs weren't winning anything, so I pointed out the fact that the Bulls lucked out with the Bosh injury, else they wouldn't even be the 8th seed and headed for an ass-kicking from the Cavs and more dancing from LeBron James.
You can also say Toronto lucked out by the Bulls losing all of their best players shortly after the all-star break. Works both ways.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You can also say Toronto lucked out by the Bulls losing all of their best players shortly after the all-star break. Works both ways.
I'm really not even arguing that Toronto is that much better, like I said, they're both just struggling for the 8th seed. Was just pointing out that that level of "success" does not give Bulls fan the basis to deride the Celtics' position.

[burnsy87]

The season is full of streaks, that's just basketball. The importance of a team losing it's best player, who was giving them 24 points and 10 rebounds, for the final few games with a playoff berth at stake should not be denied. Are you really going to argue that losing Bosh made no difference? Because that would be stupid.

Bosh wasn't even playing that good of basketball before he got hurt!

You have to be kidding me with this argument, for Christ's sake, he missed a WIDE OPEN layup for a game winner against GS!

Lot's was made of his sub par play leading up to his injury mostly due to the fact that he called his team out for being so awful.

Sure him being out hurts them, but it's not like this guy was carrying them to all these amazing wins. He wasn't playing his best and theres no saying that the Raptors are in any better position than they are right now.

There IS saying that the Bulls would have 2-3 more wins if Deng, Noah, and Rose didnt miss extended time AT THE EXACT SAME TIME.

[Undisputed]

I'm really not even arguing that Toronto is that much better, like I said, they're both just struggling for the 8th seed. Was just pointing out that that level of "success" does not give Bulls fan the basis to deride the Celtics' position.

Can't disagree with that.

[Juges8932]

Ok, well I am only going to compare Rose/Rondo in-depth, but I do think a healthy TP is superior to both.

Rondo- great passer, great defender, good court-vision, long-arms, feisty, and good at getting in the lane and to the cup.

Rose- good scorer, good at getting to the rim, ok passing, decent defense, nice athleticism.

Comparison- Rondo is the superior passer of the two, but also, let's take a look at what each has to work with. Rondo passes to the likes of Ray, Pierce, KG, and co. While Rose has Deng and Miller. Rondo has the superior defense. He has long arms and reads passes well. But he also has the benefit of a great team defense that could be argued allowing him to make the plays that he does due to the pressure the team provides on the defensive end. But Rose does underachieve in getting steals, particularly for a PG, but I think steals can be misleading and overrated as a stat due to the gambling that is sometimes required to make the steal (i.e; Allen Iverson). When it comes to scoring, it isn't really even close. Rose by a mile. He has arguably the quickest step in the league and has nice slashing ability making him one the best (IMO) at getting to the rim. Kind of like a mini D.Wade in those respects. He's also much better at FT shooting. Nothing spectacular for a guard, but decent overall and a hell of a lot better than Rondo at it. Also, Rondo has an atrocious looking shot and can't shoot the 3 worth crap. Not that Rose is a great three-point shooter, but his mid-range isn't bad.

Overall- I would have to go with Rondo. I like Rose better, but as far as for a PG, Rondo is what I'd want. Great defense, great passing, and the ability to command who gets the ball and when with such great players accompanying him. However, Rose is the franchise kind of guy. The person you can give the rock to when you need a bucket or can put the team on his back and get them the W. However, to be fair to each of them, I think they are best suited for each of their teams. One could argue, however, that we have no idea how effective the other would be as we have only seen them in their current systems. With weapons like what Boston has to offer, maybe Rose would be equally great with play-making dictation and ability and Rondo would be a prolific scorer, though I doubt it.

[Derek Zoolander]

Lol real men wear green deleted all the posts of people clowning on him, what a joke of a mod

[Derek Zoolander]

Juges, great post. In answer to your question, if Rondo was on the Bulls, they'd be the worst team in the league. If Rose was on the Celtics they'd be title contenders.

They are not title contenders this season with the horrible basketball they are playing-which can perhaps partly be attributed to the offense being run through Rondo now instead of KG and Pierce?

[Juges8932]

Juges, great post. In answer to your question, if Rondo was on the Bulls, they'd be the worst team in the league. If Rose was on the Celtics they'd be title contenders.

Well, to be fair to Rondo, what do you think Rose would be able to do with the Celtics that would put them over the top that Rondo hasn't? Rondo's job with the Celtics is to facilitate, dictate play, and play great defense. They aren't really in need of more scoring. Rose would obviously help them and perhaps be able to be even more of a threat due to the greater amount of threats on Boston that would have to be respected, allowing Rose to take greater advantage. But as far as passing and doing the PG role, I think Rondo is a great fit with the Celtics and has really come into his own. He's also still young, but Rose is only 21. That's pretty crazy when putting that into perspective as to where he's at already. But 24 or 21, doesn't really matter. Both are great, young PGs that will be great. Also, I truly believe Rondo has been the Celtics team-MVP this year. Throughout all the injuries and slumps to the other players, he has been the one constant that has been playing great.

[Derek Zoolander]

Let's just say that Rose would completely take over on a D-Wade level if teams had to respect the shooters around him.

Did you see what Rose did in the playoffs last year with that horrible cast? He took the defending champs to 7 games!

Look how bad the Celtics are when they are relying on Rondo-not the same team as the one that won the championship at all.

[Replay32]

Rondo really needs to work on his jumper. From the games I've seen of the celtics this year, they have had 2nd half/4th quarter melt downs and rondo has disappeared offensively. With rondo, teams can pack the paint. The celtics could use a point guard that has the ability to score late in games consistently. Or a point guard that could make a flippin' jumper. I would take rose over rondo and if rose was on the Celtics I think they would be a better team.

Don't get me wrong though, rondo is a really good point guard. But that Jumper is beyond broke.

[Juges8932]

Let's just say that Rose would completely take over on a D-Wade level if teams had to respect the shooters around him.

Did you see what Rose did in the playoffs last year with that horrible cast? He took the defending champs to 7 games!

Look how bad the Celtics are when they are relying on Rondo-not the same team as the one that won the championship at all.

Lol, well, he and Wade have comparable teams now and he doesn't dominate anywhere close to that level and I find it kind of irrelevant to compare Rose on a stacked team to Wade on a team that he has similar responsibilities to as Rose does currently. Unless you simply think he would actually put up Wade numbers if he were on the Celtics, then so be it, I suppose. I disagree because I don't think he is the passer/defender that Wade is.

Yeah, I loved Rose last year in the playoffs, especially with that huge block at the end of the game on Rondo. And his first playoff game, with what was it, 36 points, in the company with the likes of Kareem? Yeah, impressive, but he also faded away in a couple of those games. If I recall, having an atrocious game 2, but that's to be expected, especially given he was a rookie and everybody has bad/off days. Also, the Celtics weren't exactly the Celtics of the year before. No James Posey and KG to anchor the defense is quite the difference, but nonetheless, I agree, impressive performance indeed.

Well, yeah, they are not the same team so it would be foolish to expect similar results. Rondo is not the first, second, or third option on the offensive end for Boston. So when he goes from at best 4th to second or first in some instances, to expect the same dominance would be stupid. However, for a young guy who was thrown into the position, I think he more than held his own and did fine. Showed some bright-spots. Obviously, Rondo is not the offensive threat that Rose is in terms of scoring, but Rose has had almost 2 full seasons of being one of the and now the primary offensive scoring machine.

[lukekarts]

Both Rose and Rondo are very similar levels of talent.

Rondo is the better defender & better facilitator, and arguably the better decision maker of the 2 (despite being a horrible shooter, he's very efficient).

Rose is the better scorer, and the guy more likely to carry a team.

I guess it all comes down to what people want from their point guard to decide how to rank them.

Right now, I'd probably not take either. I prefer Russell Westrbook.

[dbugz]

Both Rose and Rondo are very similar levels of talent.

Rondo is the better defender & better facilitator, and arguably the better decision maker of the 2 (despite being a horrible shooter, he's very efficient).

Rose is the better scorer, and the guy more likely to carry a team.

I guess it all comes down to what people want from their point guard to decide how to rank them.

Right now, I'd probably not take either. I prefer Russell Westrbook.


This.

Except for the last statement.

[lilojmayo]

Both Rose and Rondo are very similar levels of talent.

Rondo is the better defender & better facilitator, and arguably the better decision maker of the 2 (despite being a horrible shooter, he's very efficient).

Rose is the better scorer, and the guy more likely to carry a team.

I guess it all comes down to what people want from their point guard to decide how to rank them.

Right now, I'd probably not take either. I prefer Russell Westrbook.

This shouldnt be a thread. Derrick Rose is on a different level. Rose mid range game is almost flawless now. I almost jumped out my seat when i saw Rose had 39 points on 15/22 shooting against the Celtics wasn't expected that when i looked on the box score.

Russell Westbrook is loads of fun to watch, like watching his game. However he is benefitting from Kevin Durant, that's not a knock him. Teams don't gameplay how to stop Westbrook, heck they probably say let Westbrook try to beat us, even though Kevin Durant will still find a way to get his 30. Guys like Derrick Rose and a few others inexperienced players like him teams watch when he has the ball and when it comes to crunch time try to actually deny him the ball.

Even with all the Kevin Durant attention, Westbrook still hovers around the 39-42% FG mark. Just think what his FG% would be if he was the main option, it could be getting into Brandon Jennings territory. Not to mention he is 2nd in the NBA in turnovers. Who knows how many assists he would actually get if Durant wasn't a catch and shoot player, but a 1-on-1 iso player.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

This shouldnt be a thread. Derrick Rose is on a different level. Rose mid range game is almost flawless now. I almost jumped out my seat when i saw Rose had 39 points on 15/22 shooting against the Celtics wasn't expected that when i looked on the box score.

Russell Westbrook is loads of fun to watch, like watching his game. However he is benefitting from Kevin Durant, that's not a knock him. Teams don't gameplay how to stop Westbrook, heck they probably say let Westbrook try to beat us, even though Kevin Durant will still find a way to get his 30. Guys like Derrick Rose and a few others inexperienced players like him teams watch when he has the ball and when it comes to crunch time try to actually deny him the ball.

Even with all the Kevin Durant attention, Westbrook still hovers around the 39-42% FG mark. Just think what his FG% would be if he was the main option, it could be getting into Brandon Jennings territory. Not to mention he is 2nd in the NBA in turnovers. Who knows how many assists he would actually get if Durant wasn't a catch and shoot player, but a 1-on-1 iso player.

Rose is a better scorer, granted, but Rondo is a better defender, passer, facilitator... They are different PGs. I wouldn't say that Rose makes the Celtics much better; Rondo would, however, make the Bulls one of the worst teams in the League. But theres a reason why Rose was a #1 pick and Rondo was early 20s.

[Pharcyde]

This is humorous. If he didn't drop 39 on the Cs tonight we wouldn't even be having this argument. He averages over 20 points. He's a scorer. And really, there's (so far) nothing wrong with that. His team needs him to put the ball in the hole and he does it well. I'm sure you Bulls fans do watch Rose more than me, but I've still seen him numerous times, and so far he's shown a lot more Iverson to his game than Kidd. And again: There's nothing wrong with that. But you Bulls fans just can't let it be. Why? You are arguing based on absolutely nothing. He has done nothing in the NBA to suggest that he is capable of being amongst the league leaders in assists. He has done plenty in the NBA to show that he's one of the best scoring pgs in the game. These are just the facts. Your arguing otherwise is pointless.

I think it's you and your Rondo fans that are blind. Rose's passiveness was to the point to where he said he wasn't going cut his hair until he became more aggresive. If he played anything like Iverson he wouldn't be averaging 17.5 FGA on a team that has no other offensive option that can really create for himself.

[Pharcyde]

I don't really care about that. I've already admitted that he might be, although Rondo has his nights as well. I'm just arguing against the baseless assumption that he's a better passer. He is not.

There are no assumptions that he's a better passer. The assumptions come in when Rondo fans like you say he will never average 8 assits per game because he's a score first.
There is several things wrong with this.
1. Vinny's system doesn't produce a lot of assists. It's mainly the high screen where you have to pass it to the big man because of being trapped and Isolation.
2. We run the high screen every time down the court. The big men we run it through is Noah and Miller. If you think either of them are good in pick and pop you're not watching games. To say Derrick wouldn't average 8+ assists with a guy like David West, David Lee, Chris Bosh or Amare in that pick and pop or pick and roll is you wishing.

[lukekarts]

This shouldnt be a thread. Derrick Rose is on a different level. Rose mid range game is almost flawless now. I almost jumped out my seat when i saw Rose had 39 points on 15/22 shooting against the Celtics wasn't expected that when i looked on the box score.

Russell Westbrook is loads of fun to watch, like watching his game. However he is benefitting from Kevin Durant, that's not a knock him. Teams don't gameplay how to stop Westbrook, heck they probably say let Westbrook try to beat us, even though Kevin Durant will still find a way to get his 30. Guys like Derrick Rose and a few others inexperienced players like him teams watch when he has the ball and when it comes to crunch time try to actually deny him the ball.

Even with all the Kevin Durant attention, Westbrook still hovers around the 39-42% FG mark. Just think what his FG% would be if he was the main option, it could be getting into Brandon Jennings territory. Not to mention he is 2nd in the NBA in turnovers. Who knows how many assists he would actually get if Durant wasn't a catch and shoot player, but a 1-on-1 iso player.

I haven't seen anything from Rose that puts him on another level to guys like Rondo or Westrbook. Both of those guys have also had big scoring games or big assist games.

And I've certainly not seen anything that makes me think 'next Deron Williams'.

He's a shooting guard posing as a point guard. That's not necessarily a bad thing (elite point guards don't seem to win titles anyway). I'm more concerned they guy doesn't seem to take the initiative in setting up his teammates, and is still a pretty rubbish defender.

They're all still below Deron, CP3, Nash, Billups IMO, with nobody being clear cut for filling out the top 5.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I think it's you and your Rondo fans that are blind. Rose's passiveness was to the point to where he said he wasn't going cut his hair until he became more aggresive. If he played anything like Iverson he wouldn't be averaging 17.5 FGA on a team that has no other offensive option that can really create for himself.
You have your own view of reality, and this argument is going nowhere. 17.5 shots per game, to me, is not indicative of a passive player. You're not going to change my mind, and I don't feel that I've been unfair to Rose. Sorry, but I refuse to give him credit for being a better passer than Rondo based on nothing.
There are no assumptions that he's a better passer. The assumptions come in when Rondo fans like you say he will never average 8 assits per game because he's a score first.
That's a misquoting. I specifically said that he might average 8 assists one day when he has a better understanding of the game, but right now would not because his focus is on scoring. You don't average 20 points by accident, regardless of what you think.[/quote]2. We run the high screen every time down the court. The big men we run it through is Noah and Miller. If you think either of them are good in pick and pop you're not watching games. To say Derrick wouldn't average 8+ assists with a guy like David West, David Lee, Chris Bosh or Amare in that pick and pop or pick and roll is you wishing.[/QUOTE]
I'm wishing? Which one of us is talking exclusively about hypothetical situations? Rose averages 6 assists. I'm not a fan of del Negro, but if he had this great passing pg like you think he does I'd bet that he would be using him that way. Rose's greatest asset, the way that he effects the outcome of the game, is scoring. This is just a fact.

[Dresta]

Rondo > Rose, and its not even close really, one game doesn't change a whole season.

[TennesseeFan]

Rondo: 1 ring
Rose : 0 ring

[Juges8932]

Rondo: 1 ring
Rose : 0 ring

Rondo: Ray Allen (Great in Pistons/Finals series), Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett (DPOY/MVP candidate), James Posey (The year they won it), and great team defense.

Rose: Uh, Miller, Salmons, and Hinrich?

Yeah, ok.

[jasonresno]

Rondo: 1 ring
Rose : 0 ring
Rondo has been in the league a year or two longer and came into the league to play on an ALREADY championship-caliber team (at the time, at least). Rose is MAKING the Bulls a championship caliber team. You get him a legit teammate (Wade, Bosh, even Johnson and Lee) and the Bulls are serious contenders.

Shitty post.

Darko Milicic: 1 ring.
Brooki Lopez: 0 rings.

Hm. I think I'd rather have Lopez.

[Lebron23]

Derrick Rose

[Derka]

Both Rose and Rondo are very similar levels of talent.

Rondo is the better defender & better facilitator, and arguably the better decision maker of the 2 (despite being a horrible shooter, he's very efficient).

Rose is the better scorer, and the guy more likely to carry a team.

I guess it all comes down to what people want from their point guard to decide how to rank them.


Right on the $$.

[JohnnySic]

Rose FINALLY outplayed Rondo in a head-to-head matchup, so lets bump and old thread and gloat.

This is how I know I'm on ISH.

[EroticVanilla]

Why the **** is this even a topic? Rondo and Rose are 2 different style of players and really don't deserve a comparison. Rondo is better if you need a defender/distributor at PG and Rose is better if you need a slasher/scorer at PG. To definitively say one is better then the other is a useless argument because it all depends on the teams needs. I'm a Celtics fan, but I'll admit that Rose most likely has more upside then Rondo, but that shouldn't take away from what Rondo has to offer.

[RajonKGcelts]

Rondo>Rose not even close. And when we get rid of these old guys, his stats will improve.

[PeroAntic]

Ten years later, these two are still elite. Loving it.

[CelticBaller]

Ten years later, these two are still elite. Loving it.

Define elite

[PeroAntic]

Define elite

A player who when it matters can put in elite performances that make the difference between winning and losing a playoff series?

[1987_Lakers]

Ten years later, these two are still elite. Loving it.

:roll:

[Wally450]

Derrick Rose is in the playoffs?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Ten years later, these two are still elite. Loving it.

As in amongst the better reserve guards in the league?

[KrizMiz]

Its easy

Rondo any dayy basketball IQ is more woth than athleticism and speed