Jason Kidd or Scottie Pippen who was better

[pierce2008mvp]

I have to say Jason Kidd with ease. Pippen was good, but never got out of round 1 without having a guy on the team that made the allstar game. Kidd took his team to the finals without an allstar.

[Roundball_Rock]

I have to say Jason Kidd with ease. Pippen was good, but never got out of round 1 without having a guy on the team that made the allstar game. Kidd took his team to the finals without an allstar.

:roll: @ this MJ troll's Pippen agenda. 1-9 kills you guys, doesn't it?

Horace Grant and Armstrong were fluke all-stars. Armstrong was voted in. Armstrong was something like a 14/4 player and Grant was 15/11. 15/11 is good but are those all-star numbers?

Pippen and Kidd are close but I'll go with Pippen. Both were for years the best at their positions but Pippen is a bigger winner. Kidd was a horrible shooter for most of his career. Pippen was the better scorer, better defender (although Kidd was good at defense too), and Pip was much more versatile. Kidd was better at passing and that is about it.

[elementally morale]

I have to say Jason Kidd with ease. Pippen was good, but never got out of round 1 without having a guy on the team that made the allstar game. Kidd took his team to the finals without an allstar.

Pierce easily. The only one among the three to have a Finals MVP and a clear cut winner. Kidd was good but Paul is already a lot better than he ever was and Pippen... don't get me started. He was... meh... a quitter and an overrated defender. Pierce is a lot better than these guys.

(I'm sure someone will take it seriously... let's see... :-D )

[pierce2008mvp]

:roll: @ this MJ troll's Pippen agenda. 1-9 kills you guys, doesn't it?

Horace Grant and Armstrong were fluke all-stars. Armstrong was voted in. Armstrong was something like a 14/4 player and Grant was 15/11. 15/11 is good but are those all-star numbers?

Pippen and Kidd are close but I'll go with Pippen. Both were for years the best at their positions but Pippen is a bigger winner. Kidd was a horrible shooter for most of his career. Pippen was the better scorer, better defender (although Kidd was good at defense too), and Pip was much more versatile. Kidd was better at passing and that is about it.

Who is a MJ fan? Not me. It kills you to see that Grant and BJ were the reasons of the Bulls success in 1994.

Jason Kidd took a worse team to the finals in a stronger time period.

[Roundball_Rock]

pierce2008 is not a real Pierce fan. That is duncan21mvp/TMacsRockets. All he does is bash Pippen and Kobe with this account. Which fan group fits that description? This guy has said Horry, Steve Smith, Horace Grant, Armstrong, and Mookie Blaylock were all better than Pippen.


Who is a MJ fan? Not me. It kills you to see that Grant and BJ were the reasons of the Bulls success in 1994.

Jason Kidd took a worse team to the finals in a stronger time period.

:roll: :roll: :roll: On all three counts.

[elementally morale]

pierce2008 is not a real Pierce fan. That is duncan21mvp/TMacsRockets. All he does is bash Pippen and Kobe with this account. Which fan group fits that description?

It's easy with him. He is an obvious troll, but one who doesn't even take himself seriously.

[pierce2008mvp]

pierce2008 is not a real Pierce fan. That is duncan21mvp/TMacsRockets. All he does is bash Pippen and Kobe with this account. Which fan group fits that description?

Fatal9, I am a true Pierce fan dude. Why the hell would I support a guy like Jordon who I hate.

Just because you have Pippen's dick in your mouth doesn't mean I support Jordon.

[No_Look604]

guy's just mad Pippen was a beast and resembled Shock-G from digital underground :roll:

edit: and who knows he might be from Utah

[Roundball_Rock]

It's easy with him. He is an obvious troll, but one who doesn't even take himself seriously.

He is entertaining, though. :D


guy's just mad Pippen was a beast and resembled Shock-G from digital underground

edit: and who knows he might be from Utah

Nah, he isn't a Jazz fan. His duncan21 account does a third thing: always argue Jordan is the GOAT. So this guy does three things: 1) bash Pippen 2) bash Kobe 3) argue Jordan is the GOAT. He goes to any extreme necessary to prop up Jordan. The funniest thing he has said is Russell never won a final's MVP and hence he is overrated. :oldlol: He is a Jordan fan, albeit a troll version.

[Shepseskaf]

Its obvious that most of these comparison threads are agenda-driven, but can we at least compare two players who play the same position?

[elementally morale]

He is entertaining, though


Most trolls are. :cheers:

[Roundball_Rock]

Most trolls are. :cheers:

That is something we can agree on. :cheers:


Its obvious that most of these comparison threads are agenda-driven, but can we at least compare two players who play the same position?

Ask the OP who was better between Robert Horry and Scottie Pippen. Most comparison threads are legit threads, even if there is a bit of an agenda involved in some, but this guy thinks Horry>Pippen and is comparing him to a legend like Kidd?

[pierce2008mvp]

He is entertaining, though. :D



Nah, he isn't a Jazz fan. His duncan21 account does a third thing: always argue Jordan is the GOAT. So this guy does three things: 1) bash Pippen 2) bash Kobe 3) argue Jordan is the GOAT. He goes to any extreme necessary to prop up Jordan. The funniest thing he has said is Russell never won a final's MVP and hence he is overrated. :oldlol: He is a Jordan fan, albeit a troll version.

When is this? I've never defended Jordon at all dude.

You are nothing but a Pippen jocker who does nothing but try to elevate a guy who never was the best player on his team.

[elementally morale]

You are nothing but a Pippen jocker who does nothing but try to elevate a guy who never was the best player on his team.


But he could have... had he played on a diferent team. :roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

You are nothing but a Pippen jocker who does nothing but try to elevate a guy who never was the best player on his team.

Yeah, because BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant were better than Pippen even though most people believed Pip was a top 2-4 player in the league at that time. :roll:

[pierce2008mvp]

Yeah, because BJ Armstrong was better than Pippen. :roll:

Horace Grant was.

I believe someone mentioned he finished higher in shares than Pippen.

[elementally morale]

Horace Grant was.

I believe someone mentioned he finished higher in shares than Pippen.

And I heard rumors he was also a bit taller.

[Shepseskaf]

this guy thinks Horry>Pippen
That's a pretty laughable thought.

EDIT: I have no idea why Pippen seems to always be a target. The most "unworthy" player currently in the Top 50 is none other than James Worthy.

Someone please explain to me how this guy got into the HOF and became regarded as one of the best players of all-time.

Basically, he was much more of a caddy to Magic than Pippen was to MJ. If anyone needs to be kicked out of the Top 50 when it gets revised, its Big-game James.

[elementally morale]

this guy says Horry>Pippen

Fixed.



That's a pretty laughable thought.

Let's laugh. I do it a lot here. BTW, this dude does not in reality think Horry was better than Pippen. There is nobody in the world who thinks that, not even Horry.

[Roundball_Rock]

Horace Grant was.

I believe someone mentioned he finished higher in shares than Pippen.

Yeah--you mentioned it (and exposed yourself as duncan21mvp by stating the same absurdity verbatim)! :roll:

He said Horry>Pippen in the all-time role player thread. He argued Pippen was just a role player and then later said Horry>Pippen.


Fixed.

Thanks. Is he deliberately trying to be funny or does he think he is going to rile up the board by making statements like that? At least most trolls make semi-reasonable arguments.

[Soopa]

smh


Scottie made it to the Western Conference Finals without MJ....came real close to beating the Lakers too.


MJ never even made it past the first round without Pippen! MJ's playoff record without Scottie was 1 win and 9 loses and he never even had a season above .500 without him!




idiot MJ jockers!

[elementally morale]

Is he deliberately trying to be funny or does he think he is going to rile up the board by making statements like that? At least most trolls make semi-reasonable arguments.


Not everyone is talented at trolling. You can still laugh at all the failed attempts, too.

[pierce2008mvp]

smh


Scottie made it to the Western Conference Finals without MJ....came real close to beating the Lakers too.


MJ never even made it past the first round without Pippen! MJ's playoff record without Scottie was 1 win and 9 loses and he never even had a season above .500 without him!




idiot MJ jockers!


Derek Fisher made the WCF without Kobe and Kobe never made it out of the first round without Fisher and this despite having Hall of fame coaches in Rudy T and Phil Jackson.

In fact Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs with a franchise is known yearly to make the playoffs despite having Caron Butler and Lamar Odom when Wade made the 2nd round in the strong east with them as a rookie.

F***** Kobe dick jockers.

[Roundball_Rock]

I am a huge Pippen fan but I have to admit: Fisher>Pippen. :(

[Soopa]

1-9 kills you guys, doesn't it?

Jordan Jihadist are angry that there hero was basically Tracy Mcgrady status (couldn't make it past the first round) before Scottie Pippen finally showed up and carried the Bulls to 6 titles :oldlol:

[pierce2008mvp]

Jordan Jihadist are angry that there hero was basically Tracy Mcgrady status (couldn't make it past the first round) before Scottie Pippen finally showed up and carried the Bulls to 6 titles :oldlol:


Just like Derek Fisher led the Lakers to 4 titles. Kobe has star players in Butler and Odom and fails to make the playoffs. Then Kobe needs the GOAT coach to just make the playoffs. Then he gets Fisher back and gets out of round 1. Fisher is the key. Fisher led the Jazz to the WCF and they haven't been back since.

Not only that but Kobe got outplayed by Pierce on a busted knee.

Imagine if Pierce was healthy.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan Jihadist are angry that there hero was basically Tracy Mcgrady status (couldn't make it past the first round) before Scottie Pippen finally showed up and carried the Bulls to 6 titles :oldlol:

:oldlol:

Another pierce/duncan21/tmacsrockets hilarity is he implied Barkley played with prime Dr. J, Moses, Hakeem, Pippen, and Drexler. He also said Kobe had prime Butler. :roll:

Pierce, who do you think is/was better? Pippen or Derek Fisher?

[pierce2008mvp]

:oldlol:

Another pierce/duncan21/tmacsrockets hilarity is he implied Barkley played with prime Dr. J, Moses, Hakeem, Pippen, and Drexler. He also said Kobe had prime Butler. :roll:

Pierce, who do you think is/was better? Pippen or Derek Fisher?

Caron Butler was 25 which was his prime. The year before he wasn't and was pretty bad, yet Wade made round 2 with him with a terrible coach.

You should know this Fatal9/Wolf_Man

[Soopa]

Just like Derek Fisher led the Lakers to 4 titles. Kobe has star players in Butler and Odom and fails to make the playoffs. Then Kobe needs the GOAT coach to just make the playoffs. Then he gets Fisher back and gets out of round 1. Fisher is the key. Fisher led the Jazz to the WCF and they haven't been back since.

Not only that but Kobe got outplayed by Pierce on a busted knee.

Imagine if Pierce was healthy.

Pippen led the Jazz to the WCF? :oldlol:

He was a role player in Utah bruh.

You cant really use the Derek Fisher argument because unlike Pippen, Fisher isn't a hall of famer. Fisher was the 5th or 6th option when he went to play in Utah. Pippen was the leader when he nearly took the Bulls to the ECF and the Blazers to the NBA Finals without MJ.

[pierce2008mvp]

Pippen led the Jazz to the WCF? :oldlol:

He was a role player in Utah bruh.

You cant really use the Derek Fisher argument because unlike Pippen, Fisher isn't a hall of famer. Fisher was the 5th or 6th option when he went to play in Utah. Pippen was the leader when he nearly took the Bulls to the ECF and the Blazers to the NBA Finals without MJ.

Fisher and Pippen had the same role. Pippen came to the Bulls as a role player. And finished as a role player in Chicago, and Portland. Pippen was the 5th option when he came to the Bulls while Fisher was the 1st option on the Lakers in clutch.

:cheers:

[Roundball_Rock]

Caron Butler was 25 which was his prime.

:roll: He averaged 15.5/6/2 at 25. He became a 20 ppg guy in Washington. Saying Kobe had prime Butler is like saying Lebron had prime Boozer.


Fisher and Pippen had the same role.

:roll:

Yeah, Fisher was called the second best player in the league by Sports Illustrated, Chuck Daly, Bob Ryan and other respected observers. Fisher was consensus top 5 in his prime. Fisher was the leading vote getter for the all-Defensive team for four straight years. Fisher made numerous all-NBA teams.

[pierce2008mvp]

:roll: He averaged 15.5/6/2 at 25. He became a 20 ppg guy in Washington. Saying Kobe had prime Butler is like saying Lebron had prime Boozer.

Whatever the case, Wade had a worse Butler and made it further. Wade had a worse Shaq and won it all.

[Soopa]

Fisher and Pippen had the same role. Pippen came to the Bulls as a role player. And finished as a role player in Chicago, and Portland. Pippen was the 5th option when he came to the Bulls while Fisher was the 1st option on the Lakers in clutch.

:cheers:


Really though?

Pippen is a top 15-20 player in NBA history!


:oldlol: @ comparing Scottie to Derek Fisher

[Roundball_Rock]

Really though?

Pippen is a top 15-20 player in NBA history!


:oldlol: @ comparing Scottie to Derek Fisher

:cheers: :rockon:

Why is a "pierce fan" obsessed with Kobe in a thread about Pippen and Kidd (in which he is bashing Pip)? Classic behavior of...

[pierce2008mvp]

Really though?

Pippen is a top 15-20 player in NBA history!


:oldlol: @ comparing Scottie to Derek Fisher


Yep due to Jordon. Guess what, let's see Kobe turn someone into a top 15-20 player all time *****.

Fisher is much more clutch than Scottie and a better leader. Fisher would never sit out a play when it wasn't designed for him nor would he ever rape a girl like Kobe did.

[Roundball_Rock]

Yep due to Jordon

:roll: Jordan can't even "make" his Wizards or Bobcats into playoff teams in the weak East. Jordan can't "make" a single all-star let alone one of the greatest players ever. Jordan was a basketball player, not a god.

Jordan as GM: 0-7 in having winning seasons
Jordan in baseball: 0-2
Jordan without Pippen as a player: 0-5

Pippen without Jordan: 7-1 (the only losing season the legend had was his final season when he played only 20 games. He had 16 straight seasons of 47 or more wins)

Scottie made Jordan a winner in the pro's! Jordan should hire Scottie to work for the Bobcats so he can start winning again. :rockon:

[pierce2008mvp]

:roll: Jordan can't even "make" his Wizards or Bobcats into playoff teams in the weak East. Jordan can't "make" a single all-star let alone one of the greatest players ever. Jordan was a basketball player, not a god.

Jordan as GM: 0-7 in having winning seasons
Jordan in baseball: 0-2
Jordan without Pippen as a player: 0-5

Pippen without Jordan: 7-1

Scottie made Jordan a winner in the pro's! Jordan should hire Scottie to work for the Bobcats so he can start winning again. :rockon:

Is that why Pippen is broke as hell because his dumb ass was buying airplanes and went broke and now because he is stingy he cant get ****?

Guess what, Pippen was garbage, dude would have been out of the league in a year if Jordan didn't train his ass.

Jordan's Playoff win % > Pippen's Playoff win % and Kobe Playoff Win %.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan's Playoff win % > Pippen's Playoff win %

1-9 is better than Pip's record? Jordan came through in the clutch to save himself from going 1-17 by managing to miss the playoffs twice, even in a very weak conference where 40 wins would get you in. Pippen was in the playoffs every year for 16 years until his final season. Even with scrubs he carried them to 5th-6th place in 95' and a winning record, not 37 or 40 wins. Jordan also conveniently quit whenever the Bulls dynasty began to totter. He never quit when they were coasting to 67 or 69 wins.

Pippen isn't broke. How do you think he is traveling around the world?

[plowking]

Pippen quite easily. I'd never want a player on my team who's capable of shooting 37% for a season like Kidd is. No matter how many rebounds he grabs at the point guard position, it simply doesn't matter.

[magnax1]

Its just so crazy, one side over rates Pippen to no end, another has decided that Pippen is as good as Derek Fisher (Heck no! Fisher is better!)
Im joking, dont freak out
Point is Pippen was good, but never better than 5-15 best in the league, but Jordan wouldn't be winning much without him. Though, its not like they'd be losing something if they traded Pippen for prime Dominique.

[pierce2008mvp]

1-9 is better than Pip's record? Jordan came through in the clutch to save himself from going 1-17 by managing to miss the playoffs twice, even in a very weak conference where 40 wins would get you in. Pippen was in the playoffs every year for 16 years until his final season. Even with scrubs he carried them to 5th-6th place in 95' and a winning record, not 37 or 40 wins.

Pippen isn't broke. How do you think he is traveling around the world?

Jordan had a 66.5 winning percentage and this despite never having a player better than him on his team and Pippen 65.4% winning % and this with him never being the best player on the team. Kobe's is 63.4% and this with having a player better than him on his team for 10 years.

And Pippen can travel like all americans. He uses a credit card

:roll:

[Soopa]

:roll: Jordan can't even "make" his Wizards or Bobcats into playoff teams in the weak East. Jordan can't "make" a single all-star let alone one of the greatest players ever. Jordan was a basketball player, not a god.

Jordan as GM: 0-7
Jordan in baseball: 0-2
Jordan without Pippen is a player: 0-5

Scottie made Jordan a winner in the pro's! Jordan should hire Scottie to work for the Bobcats so he can start winning again. :rockon:



Don't forget Jordan's oldest son Jeff is a disappointment/loser too. Jordan can't even make his own son better!

Maybe he needs Antron Pippen to make him better the same way his dad needed Scottie to make him better. :oldlol:

[pierce2008mvp]

Don't forget Jordan's oldest son Jeff is a disappointment/loser too. Jordan can't even make his own son better!

Maybe he needs Antron Pippen to make him better the same way his dad needed Scottie to make him better. :oldlol:


Playoffs


Kobe Bryant
25.0 ppg, 44.7% fg, 32.9% 3pt FG, 5.1 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg , 22.0 per


Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg, 21.4 per


Don't forget Kobe got outplayed by Pierce on a busted knee.

[Roundball_Rock]

Point is Pippen was good, but never better than 5-15 best in the league, but Jordan wouldn't be winning much without him. Though, its not like they'd be losing something if they traded Pippen for prime Dominique.

Never better than 5-15? Your opinion but that wasn't the view of most at the time. He was all-NBA first team and all-Defensive first team (#1 vote getter) during his peak. That sounds like a 5-15 player?

Pippen=Dominique? Again a minority opinion. Pippen was a legendary defender and ran the offense. Losing Pippen for Wilkins means:

1) A weaker defense
2) No Paxson or Harper because you would need a real PG without Pip there running the offense
3) A weaker team. Jordan could not function with a traditional PG. Jordan would be less effective, the defense less effective.
4) In Dominique's case a 30 ppg ballhog could not coexist with someone like Jordan

People forget Pippen's defense (GOAT perimeter defender) and his versatility. You can't just trade Pippen for Wilkins or Mullin or Detlef Schrempf (all inferior SF's btw). You have to get a PG too, and that creates big problems for MJ.


Jordan had a 66.5 winning percentage and this despite never having a player better than him on his team and Pippen 65.4% winning % and this with him never being the best player on the team.

Yeah, because he would retire whenever the Bulls began to totter. Pip had to play with CBA players and Will Perdue as starters.


Pippen without Jordan

Regular season

51-21 (71%) on pace for the second best record in the NBA, #1 in the East
34-31 (52%)
31-19 (62%)
59-23 (72%) second best record in the NBA
35-25 (58%)
39-21 (65%)
38-19 (67%)
23-59 (28%) Pippen played in only 23 games and started only 6 so I cannot find their record in games he played. Needless to say, he was a washed up scrub by 2004.

Total: 310-218
Total minus 2004*: 287-159 (64%)

Playoffs

6-4 ECSF
1-3
10-6 WCF
0-3
0-3
3-4
DNQ

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%)
30-52 (37%) MJ played in only 18 games and started only 7 but bball reference does not have starting lineups for 1986.
40-42 (49%)
26-12 (68%)
30-30 (50%)
37-45 (45%)

Total: 201-225
Total minus 1986*: 171-173 (49.7%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
DNQ
DNQ


*Since it is not possible to determine which games they played in.
**DNQ=Did not qualify for the playoffs


Don't forget Jordan's oldest son Jeff is a disappointment/loser too. Jordan can't even make his own son better!

Maybe he needs Antron Pippen to make him better the same way his dad needed Scottie to make him better.

:oldlol:

[pierce2008mvp]

Never better than 5-15? Your opinion but that wasn't the view of most at the time. He was all-NBA first team and all-Defensive first team (#1 vote getter) during his peak. That sounds like a 5-15 player?

Pippen=Dominique? Again a minority opinion. Pippen was a legendary defender and ran the offense. Losing Pippen for Wilkins means:

1) A weaker defense
2) No Paxson or Harper because you would need a real PG without Pip there running the offense
3) A weaker team. Jordan could not function with a traditional PG. Jordan would be less effective, the defense less effective.
4) In Dominique's case a 30 ppg ballhog could not coexist with someone like Jordan

People forget Pippen's defense (GOAT perimeter defender) and his versatility. You can't just trade Pippen for Wilkins or Mullin or Detlef Schrempf (all inferior SF's btw). You have to get a PG too, and that creates big problems for MJ.



Yeah, because he would retire whenever the Bulls began to totter. Pip had to play with CBA players and Will Perdue as starters.


Pippen without Jordan

Regular season

51-21 (71%) on pace for the second best record in the NBA, #1 in the East
34-31 (52%)
31-19 (62%)
59-23 (72%) second best record in the NBA
35-25 (58%)
39-21 (65%)
38-19 (67%)
23-59 (28%) Pippen played in only 23 games and started only 6 so I cannot find their record in games he played. Needless to say, he was a washed up scrub by 2004.

Total: 310-218
Total minus 2004*: 287-159 (64%)

Playoffs

6-4 ECSF
1-3
10-6 WCF
0-3
0-3
3-4
DNQ

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%)
30-52 (37%) MJ played in only 18 games and started only 7 but bball reference does not have starting lineups for 1986.
40-42 (49%)
26-12 (68%)
30-30 (50%)
37-45 (45%)

Total: 201-225
Total minus 1986*: 171-173 (49.7%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
DNQ
DNQ


*Since it is not possible to determine which games they played in.
**DNQ=Did not qualify for the playoffs



:oldlol:

Pippen played with Allstars Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong and then played with Hakeem and Barkley and then Rasheed Wallace, Steve Smith and Jermaine O'neal and still has a worse playoff record than Jordon despite him never playing with a player better than him on his teams nor any other allstar.

Oh and just so that you know Jordan led in Win Shares 9 times which means no one woudl have done better. Damn as a rookie he finished 2nd in win shares meaning even Magic on the Bulls would have been below .500.

[pierce2008mvp]

In fact, in 1992 and 1993 and some other years, Pippen was 3rd on the team in Win Shares behind Jordan of course and Grant.


Pippen averaged 16ppg 6.4reb 5.2ast 2.0stl .8blk 47%fg for his career and people talk about him like he was playing on LeBron's level. The one thing people never talk about with Pippen is the fact that yes he averaged 17ppg in the playoffs 7.6reb and 5.0ast, but Pippen shot 44% in the playoffs for his career. Pippen shot 39% in the 96 playoffs, Pippen shot 41% in the 97 and 98 playoffs. The first year Pippen played in the playoffs without Jordan(99) Pippen shot 32.9% in the playoffs that year. Pippen only had one season shooting over 50% in the playoffs and that was the 90 playoffs when he made 50.4% of his shots. Other than that, he was a streaky scorer, overrated passer and ball handler, overrated defender, and he only shot 30% from 3 point land to go with 72% free throws for his career in the playoffs.

Pippen shot 40% in the 96,97 and 98 playoffs, name one other player who could will his team to a 3 peat, like Jordan did, with a sidekick that shot 40% in the playoffs during those 3 championship runs.

[Soopa]

Never better than 5-15? Your opinion but that wasn't the view of most at the time. He was all-NBA first team and all-Defensive first team (#1 vote getter) during his peak. That sounds like a 5-15 player?

Pippen=Dominique? Again a minority opinion. Pippen was a legendary defender and ran the offense. Losing Pippen for Wilkins means:

1) A weaker defense
2) No Paxson or Harper because you would need a real PG without Pip there running the offense
3) A weaker team. Jordan could not function with a traditional PG. Jordan would be less effective, the defense less effective.
4) In Dominique's case a 30 ppg ballhog could not coexist with someone like Jordan

People forget Pippen's defense (GOAT perimeter defender) and his versatility. You can't just trade Pippen for Wilkins or Mullin or Detlef Schrempf (all inferior SF's btw). You have to get a PG too, and that creates big problems for MJ.



Yeah, because he would retire whenever the Bulls began to totter. Pip had to play with CBA players and Will Perdue as starters.


Pippen without Jordan

Regular season

51-21 (71%) on pace for the second best record in the NBA, #1 in the East
34-31 (52%)
31-19 (62%)
59-23 (72%) second best record in the NBA
35-25 (58%)
39-21 (65%)
38-19 (67%)
23-59 (28%) Pippen played in only 23 games and started only 6 so I cannot find their record in games he played. Needless to say, he was a washed up scrub by 2004.

Total: 310-218
Total minus 2004*: 287-159 (64%)

Playoffs

6-4 ECSF
1-3
10-6 WCF
0-3
0-3
3-4
DNQ

Jordan without Pippen


Regular season

38-44 (46%)
30-52 (37%) MJ played in only 18 games and started only 7 but bball reference does not have starting lineups for 1986.
40-42 (49%)
26-12 (68%)
30-30 (50%)
37-45 (45%)

Total: 201-225
Total minus 1986*: 171-173 (49.7%)

Playoffs

1-3
0-3
0-3
DNQ
DNQ


*Since it is not possible to determine which games they played in.
**DNQ=Did not qualify for the playoffs



:oldlol:


Ether for MJ stans!


Without Pippen, MJ was and would have been nothing but a bald-headed Dominique Wilkins.

[Roundball_Rock]

:roll:

Pippen with scrubs=5th-6th place in the East and a winning record
Jordan with scrubs=five losing records


. Pippen shot 39% in the 96 playoffs, Pippen shot 41% in the 97 and 98 playoffs. The first year Pippen played in the playoffs without Jordan(99) Pippen shot 32.9% in the playoffs that year.

He was injured each of those years. :oldlol: The first year without Jordan he averaged 23 ppg and led his team in scoring, rebounding, assists, minutes, steals, and was second in blocks.

Pippen had lines of 21/9/8, 21/9/7, and 21/8/8 in the NBA finals. Now excuse me, I am a Bulls fan not a Jordan fan. I have to vent at the Bulls blowing a 35 point lead in the Bulls game thread. :rant

[pierce2008mvp]

:roll:

Pippen with scrubs=5th-6th place in the East and a winning record
Jordan with scrubs=five losing records



He was injured each of those years. :oldlol: The first year without Jordan he averaged 23 ppg and led his team in scoring, rebounding, assists, minutes, steals, and was second in blocks.

Pippen had lines of 21/9/8, 21/9/7, and 21/8/8 in the NBA finals. Now excuse me, I am a Bulls fan not a Jordan fan. I have to vent at the Bulls blowing a 35 point lead in the Bulls game thread. :rant

Again Dick, Pippen had allstars on his team every single year and never was the best player on his team as he never led them in win shares in the season and playoffs.

Jordon with scrubs won 4 titles. He didn't have allstars.

[pierce2008mvp]

Ether for MJ stans!


Without Pippen, MJ was and would have been nothing but a bald-headed Dominique Wilkins.

Except Nique doesn't have season or finals mvp's.


Kobe is nothing but a lessor Vince Carter

Playoffs


Kobe Bryant
25.0 ppg, 44.7% fg, 32.9% 3pt FG, 5.1 rpg, 4.7 apg, 1.4 spg, 0.7 bpg, 2.9 tpg , 22.0 per


Vince Carter
25.9 ppg, 41.8% fg, 33.2% 3 pt FG, 6.9 rpg, 5.2 apg, 1.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.7 tpg, 21.4 per


But then again Vince actually scored 50 in the playoffs in regulation.

[Soopa]

Without playing with Shaq or Fisher, Kobe would have actually molested his own son.

:wtf:......:confusedshrug:

[magnax1]

Never better than 5-15? Your opinion but that wasn't the view of most at the time. He was all-NBA first team and all-Defensive first team (#1 vote getter) during his peak. That sounds like a 5-15 player?

Pippen=Dominique? Again a minority opinion. Pippen was a legendary defender and ran the offense. Losing Pippen for Wilkins means:

1) A weaker defense
2) No Paxson or Harper because you would need a real PG without Pip there running the offense
3) A weaker team. Jordan could not function with a traditional PG. Jordan would be less effective, the defense less effective.
4) In Dominique's case a 30 ppg ballhog could not coexist with someone like Jordan

People forget Pippen's defense (GOAT perimeter defender) and his versatility. You can't just trade Pippen for Wilkins or Mullin or Detlef Schrempf (all inferior SF's btw). You have to get a PG too, and that creates big problems for MJ.
See what I'm saying? Pippen was not as near as big of an impact as you say. his biggest impact was his ability to be a secondary scorer for Jordan. If not for him, he would've only had Kukoc as a scorer other than him. His second biggest impact was his on ball D, so Jordan didn't have play the other teams best defender.
Dominique was a much better, scorer, and a better rebounder. They miss his defense, and his passing, but I don't see why Jordan, who was just as good of a passer as Pippen, couldn't run the offense,(and really, the Triangle isn't built with 1 main facilitator in mind) and give some of his scoring off to Dominique. He might not have liked it much, but they would only have lost Pippen's defense, and gained a much better offense.
Also, calling Pippen the GOAT defender is a grand overstatement. Rodman was just as good, and Jordan was just as good of an on ball Defender (though his team defense wasn't as good)

[Roundball_Rock]

Again Dick, Pippen had allstars on his team every single year and never was the best player on his team as he never led them in win shares in the season and playoffs.

Jordon with scrubs won 4 titles. He didn't have allstars.

What all-star did Pippen have in 95'? He didn't have all-stars every year in Portland either.

Pippen was a top 2-4 player in the league in 94' and 95' when Jordan retired. Yet he wasn't the best player on his team? :roll:

Every top 10 player of all-time won a ring without his best teammate except Jordan and Magic. Magic at least got to the finals. Jordan was 1-9. No wonder you guys are so mad about Pippen. There is a reason why Pippen was the first person MJ thanked in his HOF speech. He even choked up a bit, although he was teary before that so it is hard to tell whether he got additionally emotional when praising Pippen for being there for every championship he won.


Dominique was a much better, scorer, and a better rebounder.

Pip was a better rebounder.


I don't see why Jordan, who was just as good of a passer as Pippen, couldn't run the offense

Ask his coaches Doug Collins and Phil Jackson (hint: why do you think the triangle was implemented in the first place?)...Doing that would also cause Jordan to expend a lot more energy on offense, not to mention an increased defensive load. Jordan would not be Jordan under this scenario.

Pippen is in the conversation for GOAT perimeter defender. Dominique was not even an average defender. Rodman by the time he got to the Bulls was past his prime defensively.

You actually underrate Pip. I notice those who say they are "in the middle" on him always underrate him. He was a 5-15 player in his prime? He was considered a top 2-4 player at his peak. National sports magazines were calling him the second-best player in the league. Dream Team III players wanted to be him more than any other player. You are entitled to your opinion but the notion that you are a sort of equator on Pippen is incorrect.

Pippen as a facilitator


It was Pippen who directed the triangle offense, enabling Jordan to get in position on the wing to attack the defense. It was Pippen who was the good teammate. Steve Kerr used to say how Pippen not only would get you the good shot, Pippen knew when you were slumping or hadn't had a shot in a while and he'd work the offense to get you a good shot to get going. It was Pippen who was the more favored teammate.

One definition of greatness is making other players better, and Pippen did that.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1895719

In 1997-98 Scottie played only 9 games before the all-star break. Let's look at the stats of the Bulls' top five scorers other than Pippen before and after the all-star break.

Toni Kukoc: 12.6 ppg on 45% shooting before the ASG, 14.4 on 46.4% after the ASG

Luc Longley: 11.1 ppg on 44.4% before the ASG, 12.8 ppg on 50% after the ASG

Ron Harper: 9.6 on 42.9% before the ASG, 8.8 on 46% after the ASG

Steve Kerr: 7.1 on 41.1% before the ASG, 8.0 on 50.7% after the ASG

And...dare I do it????

Michael Jordan: 28.9 on 45.0% before the ASG, 28.5 on 48.9% after the ASG

Gee, maybe this was all just a string of coincidences? Let's try one more, Bill Wennington. 3.3 ppg on 41.4% before the ASG, 3.7 on 45.9% after the ASG.

Dominique could make his teammates better like that?

[pierce2008mvp]

What all-star did Pippen have in 95'? He didn't have all-stars every year in Portland either.

Pippen was a top 2-4 player in the league in 94' and 95' when Jordan retired. Yet he wasn't the best player on his team? :roll:

Every top 10 player of all-time won a ring without his best teammate except Jordan and Magic. Magic at least got to the finals. Jordan was 1-9. No wonder you guys are so mad about Pippen. There is a reason why Pippen was the first person MJ thanked in his HOF speech. He even choked up a bit, although he was teary before that so it is hard to tell whether he got additionally emotional when praising Pippen for being there for every championship he won.

Jordan won multiple titles without even having an allstar.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/all_star.html

1991 and 1998 won titles with no other star. Only player who can say they won multiple titles without another allstar on the team.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan won multiple titles without even having an allstar.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/all_star.html

1991 and 1998 won titles with no other star. Only player who can say they won multiple titles without another allstar on the team.

:roll: That was because Pippen was snubbed in 91' and hurt in 98' (see above post). Pippen dropped 22/9/6 in the 91' playoffs and 21/9/7 in the NBA finals. That isn't an all-star? By the end of the season he was the fifth choice for the Dream Team by the best coach at the time (and in reality third or fourth. Bird was chosen in the first group out of respect and Magic might have been the same, depending on whether he was retired when the invitations were made). That doesn't sound like an all-star?

Why does Pippen being a great player anger Jordan fans? Kareem fans don't hate Magic or vice versa. Bird fans don't hate McHale or vice versa. Today Nash fans don't hate Amare or vice versa. There are a million other examples. Only Jordan fans have this odd quirk. Why? Does Pippen reveal that Jordan was not a god?

[pierce2008mvp]

:roll: That was because Pippen was snubbed in 91' and hurt in 98' (see above post). Pippen dropped 22/9/6 in the 91' playoffs and 21/9/7 in the NBA finals. That isn't an all-star? By the end of the season he was the fifth choice for the Dream Team by the best coach at the time (and in reality third or fourth. Bird was chosen in the first group out of respect and Magic might have been the same, depending on whether he was retired when the invitations were made). That doesn't sound like an all-star?

Why does Pippen being a great player anger Jordan fans? Kareem fans don't hate Magic or vice versa. Bird fans don't hate McHale or vice versa. Today Nash fans don't hate Amare or vice versa. There are a million other examples. Only Jordan fans have this odd quirk. Why? Does Pippen reveal that Jordan was not a god?

No, it is Kobe fans that overrate Pippen. I could care less about him honestly. I actually created this thread because Kidd and Pippen are similar and the same level. But it still doesn't change that Pippen wasnt an allstar those years when the Bulls won.

No offense, I'm sure Bulls fans would want to have either Jordon or Pippen on the team now.
:eek:

[Roundball_Rock]

:oldlol: Most of your threads are Pippen threads and you proceed to bash him in each of them. Everyone can see your agenda.

http://a.espncdn.com/media/nba/2004/1005/photo/a_pippen_hi.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/wasteofspace04/umadumadumad.jpg

[CB4GOATPF]

Pippen get f- real :rolleyes: :confusedshrug:

[NBASTATMAN]

I have to say Jason Kidd with ease. Pippen was good, but never got out of round 1 without having a guy on the team that made the allstar game. Kidd took his team to the finals without an allstar.


Comeon.. Pippen better... Kidd was great though.. If Kidd played with Mj.. Kidd would have alot of Titles as well...

[Soopa]

Comeon.. Pippen better... Kidd was great though.. If Kidd played with Mj.. Kidd would have alot of Titles as well...

Pippen would also have alot of titles if he played with Dominique Wilkins.

[Roundball_Rock]

Comeon.. Pippen better... Kidd was great though.. If Kidd played with Mj.. Kidd would have alot of Titles as well...

And if Pippen played with Kidd he would have a lot of titles as well. It is funny how Jordan fans only look at one side of the equation.

[Soopa]

And if Pippen played with Kidd he would have a lot of titles as well. It is funny how Jordan fans only look at one side of the equation.

Imagine if the Bulls didn't get to swap Pippen for Olden Polynice.

Pippen goes to Seattle.

Payton/Pippen/Kemp/Schrempf etc. That's at least 6 or 7 ships.

[NBASTATMAN]

And if Pippen played with Kidd he would have a lot of titles as well. It is funny how Jordan fans only look at one side of the equation.



Doubt that... Two second options don't win titles... Pippen proved that in 2000.. When there were like 5 second or third options on that team... Wallace, Pippen, Detlef, Steve Smith, sabonis, damon stoudamire.. Were all second or third options on a team that could win a title.. Yet they couldn't get it done...

You also fail to recognize that Pippen and Kidd are both naturally playmakers... Go ahead and dream... Kidd has played with Novitzki now for a while.. I guess they will be winning a title this year.. Dirk is a player that can be compared to Pippen.... Actually a better fit for Kidd...



BTW I watched that Great AMARE get backdoored like 5 times tonight.. Gasol is not that stupid... Over and over this happened.. In one quarter I believe........



Amare is not even close to being the player Gasol is.. Huge difference in IQ....

[NBASTATMAN]

Imagine if the Bulls didn't get to swap Pippen for Olden Polynice.

Pippen goes to Seattle.

Payton/Pippen/Kemp/Schrempf etc. That's at least 4 or 5 ships.


Wrong... Pippen would have at least made that team somewhat better.. No chance to get payton with a better record.... Whatever.. You are starting to turn into a joke...

[Roundball_Rock]

Imagine if the Bulls didn't get to swap Pippen for Olden Polynice.

Pippen goes to Seattle and plays with Payton and Kemp! That's at least 4 or 5 ships.

The other scenario is if the Bulls traded Jordan in 88'. They could have had this team:

PF Grant or Oakley
SF Pippen
C Smits
SG Richmond
PG K. Johnson

Bench: Toni Kukoc, BJ Armstrong, Kerr (although not all at the same time)

Jordan would be on the Clippers. :roll: Here is a thread on this scenario: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3720571#post3720571

Oh, and you know why Reinsdorf vetoed the trade? $$$$, not basketball grounds. Jordan was such a ballhog the team, including Collins and Krause, were convinced they could not win with him (this is why Jordan could not work as a PG). Eventually Jackson came in, implemented the triangle (to allow others to get the ball), put the ball in Pippen's hand to be the primary playmaker and the rest is history.


Wrong... Pippen would have at least made that team somewhat better.. No chance to get payton with a better record.... Whatever.. You are starting to turn into a joke...

Yes, but they would have gotten Kemp, Hersey Hawkins (a 20 ppg scorer in Philly), and Sam Perkins. They could also have acquired Detlef Schrempf. He came via free agency. With Pippen there they would not need a SF but they could move Pippen to PG and play Schrempf at SF.


Doubt that... Two second options don't win titles...

What exactly is the definition of "second option"? Two guys who were at their peaks top 5 players could not win championships (the Pippen-Kidd scenario assumes, like the Jordan-Kidd scenario, that either Pippen was older or Kidd younger and they played their primes together)?

The 2000 Blazers were huge underdogs and were up against the most dominant player ever at his absolute peak, Kobe, and Glen Rice (a guy who was a top 3 scorer just two seasons before with the Hornets!). :oldlol: @ Jordan fans using that against Pippen. Pip came within 2 minutes of a championship; Jordan never came within more than 2 games of the second round without Pippen (only because back then the first round was best out of 5 and MJ won a playoff game. Once.).


You also fail to recognize that Pippen and Kidd are both naturally playmakers... Go ahead and dream... Kidd has played with Novitzki now for a while.. I guess they will be winning a title this year.. Dirk is a player that can be compared to Pippen.... Actually a better fit for Kidd...

Kidd was past his prime when he went to Dallas. Do you think prime Kidd and prime Dirk aren't winning championships????

Two playmakers cannot function on a team? Grant Hill (Pippen-like in this regard) is doing fine with Nash, no? What you don't realize is with Kidd there Pippen would play more of a traditional SF role.

Also, we know Jordan could not function with a traditional PG. How would he function with one of the best PG's ever? You look at details regarding Pippen but not regarding Jordan. There is a reason Chicago had a revolving door of guards until Pippen became the point forward...

Saying Gasol>Amare would be considered a joke two years ago. Gasol is overrated now because he plays for the LA Lakers.

Last point regarding the 87' draft: Jordan wanted the Bulls to draft Kenny Smith! :eek:

[NBASTATMAN]

The other scenario is if the Bulls traded Jordan in 88'. They could have had this team:

PF Grant or Oakley
SF Pippen
C Smits
SG Richmond
PG K. Johnson

Bench: Toni Kukoc, BJ Armstrong, Kerr (although not all at the same time)

Jordan would be on the Clippers. :roll: Here is a thread on this scenario: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3720571#post3720571

Oh, and you know why Reinsdorf vetoed the trade? $$$$, not basketball grounds. Jordan was such a ballhog the team, including Collins and Krause, were convinced they could not win with him (this is why Jordan could not work as a PG). Eventually Jackson came in, implemented the triangle (to allow others to get the ball), put the ball in Pippen's hand to be the primary playmaker and the rest is history.



Yes, but they would have gotten Kemp, Hersey Hawkins (a 20 ppg scorer in Philly), and Sam Perkins. They could also have acquired Detlef Schrempf. He came via free agency. With Pippen there they would not need a SF but they could move Pippen to PG and play Schrempf at SF.



What exactly is the definition of "second option"? Two guys who were at their peaks top 5 players could not win championships (the Pippen-Kidd scenario assumes, like the Jordan-Kidd scenario, that either Pippen was older or Kidd younger and they played their primes together)?

The 2000 Blazers were huge underdogs and were up against the most dominant player ever at his absolute peak, Kobe, and Glen Rice (a guy who was a top 3 scorer just two seasons before with the Hornets!). :oldlol: @ Jordan fans using that against Pippen. Pip came within 2 minutes of a championship; Jordan never came within more than 2 games of the second round without Pippen (only because back then the first round was best out of 5 and MJ won a playoff game. Once.).



Kidd was past his prime when he went to Dallas. Do you think prime Kidd and prime Dirk aren't winning championships????

Two playmakers cannot function on a team? Grant Hill (Pippen-like in this regard) is doing fine with Nash, no? What you don't realize is with Kidd there Pippen would play more of a traditional SF role.

Also, we know Jordan could not function with a traditional PG. How would he function with one of the best PG's ever? You look at details regarding Pippen but not regarding Jordan. There is a reason Chicago had a revolving door of guards until Pippen became the point forward...

Saying Gasol>Amare would be considered a joke two years ago. Gasol is overrated now because he plays for the LA Lakers.

Last point regarding the 87' draft: Jordan wanted the Bulls to draft Kenny Smith! :eek:



What if ,,, ah forget it... :lol

[Roundball_Rock]

The point is the notion MJ fans try to peddle that Pippen would never have won a championship without playing with Jordan is false. They love to point to great players and say Jordan would have won championships with them but never mention--probably never fathom--that Pippen would do the same thing with those players. Hakeem is the player MJ fans love to cite the most. Pippen and Hakeem wouldn't have won multiple rings? Let's get real here.

In the end, though, all we have is the historical record. The record is Pippen and Jordan won 6 championships together. Apart, Pippen won 19 playoff games and had winning seasons in seven of eight seasons (his only losing season was his last when he played only 20 games). Pippen was 2 minutes away from a championship in 2000 and in 94' everyone other than MJ fans believes the Bulls were on their way to at least making the finals if not for perhaps the worst playoff call in NBA history. Jordan? 1-9 in the playoffs (twice he didn't even make the playoffs) and zero winning seasons. This is the historical record. It amazes me why Jordan fans would want to compare the two players separately because Jordan's record is far worse than that of any top 10 player without his best teammate. Eight of the ten won championships without their best team, another reached the NBA finals. Jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs. Why draw attention to this fact? :confusedshrug:

[Dbrog]

I take Scottie based on defense. Kidd never really could defend very well. Basketball is a 2 way game. However, I think Kidd made a lot more happen on the offensive end (even though he wasn't the scorer Pippen was).

[NBASTATMAN]

The point is the notion MJ fans try to peddle that Pippen would never have won a championship without playing with Jordan is false. They love to point to great players and say Jordan would have won championships with them but never mention--probably never fathom--that Pippen would do the same thing with those players. Hakeem is the player MJ fans love to cite the most. Pippen and Hakeem wouldn't have won multiple rings? Let's get real here.

In the end, though, all we have is the historical record. The record is Pippen and Jordan won 6 championships together. Apart, Pippen won 19 playoff games and had winning seasons in seven of eight seasons (his only losing season was his last when he played only 20 games). Pippen was 2 minutes away from a championship in 2000 and in 94' everyone other than MJ fans believes the Bulls were on their way to at least making the finals if not for perhaps the worst playoff call in NBA history. Jordan? 1-9 in the playoffs (twice he didn't even make the playoffs) and zero winning seasons. This is the historical record. It amazes me why Jordan fans would want to compare the two players separately because Jordan's record is far worse than that of any top 10 player without his best teammate. Eight of the ten won championships without their best team, another reached the NBA finals. Jordan was 1-9 in the playoffs. Why draw attention to this fact? :confusedshrug:



This just shows what a hater you are... You are ready to give Pippen credit for the Bulls reaching the semifinals in his rookie year while avg 10 pts a game and reaching the ECFinals in his second year while only avg 13 pts a game... That is like giving Fisher credit for Kobe's playoff success last year or the year before... You are a hater and a joke..

As for Pippen, he would never have become the player he became if it wasn't for MJ... He admits it himself... Keep trying

[NBASTATMAN]

Pippen is a Top 25 player to ever play the game, Kidd isn't there and I don't think he'll be there when he retires.


Name the top 25.. I would love to hear this list....

[plowking]

And if Pippen played with Kidd he would have a lot of titles as well. It is funny how Jordan fans only look at one side of the equation.

Honestly, just shut the f*ck up. I think everyone here almost gets a little dumber reading your posts.

[Soopa]

Honestly, just shut the f*ck up. I think everyone here almost gets a little dumber reading your posts.

haha we makin them mad bruh :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

haha we makin them mad bruh :oldlol:

He is the classic example of what you were talking about yesterday: someone who parrots whatever the mass media tells him. Even outside of basketball. There was a discussion bout Formula One racing and he didn't realize the obvious fact that Schumacher won against weak competition. He may be the GOAT--I think he is--but that is a huge ***** in his case. This guy was claiming Schumacher had great comp, even though he raced against only one top 10 of all-time driver in his prime, and that driver had a car to compete for championships for only three years. For the rest of his career he was competing with vastly inferior drivers. He didn't even know this, or was not able to comprehend this, yet he was getting angry at me for merely saying Senna and Prost had cases over him (Senna and Prost raced against each other--meaning they raced against another top 3 driver for their prime and they also raced against two other top 10 of all-time drivers all in their primes!). According to this guy Jordan was the GOAT and Schumacher the GOAT. No questions asked! No one else has a case (Kareem>Jordan)! :roll:

Common sense says if two guys who were top 5 players in their prime played together they would win championships. Suppose Wade and Howard or Paul and Howard played together. They aren't winning championships? These clowns can't handle that Pippen was good enough to win rings without Jordan. There were three scenarios in Pippen's career that would have had him play several years of his prime without Jordan:

1) The Jordan gets traded to the Clips in 88' one
2) Pippen remained with Seattle in 87'
3) Pippen gets traded for Kemp in 95' and Pippen plays four years of his prime with Payton, Schrempf, Hawkins, and Perkins

He would win rings in all of these scenarios. The other question that this raises--something they would not like to discuss--is what would happen to Jordan? The best player the Bulls front office brought in during his tenure after 87' was Toni Kukoc until Rodman in 96'. Kukoc didn't even show up until 94', when MJ retired. Maybe the Bulls would have acquired a great player to pair with Jordan but their track record makes that questionable. These are the same people who brought Ron Harper in to be a 20 ppg "sidekick" for Pippen. Harper turned out to be a 7 ppg guy in Chicago. Why do Jordan fans want to raise this question as a corollary to their "What would Pippen have done without Jordan?" question? Again, it puts him in a bad light. We know what every other top 10 of all-time player did without his best teammate. Eight of them won championships and the other reached the NBA finals. Why draw attention to this?

Which team is better?

PF Schrempf
SF Pippen
C Perkins/Johnson
SG Hawkins
PG Payton

PF Kemp
SF Kukoc
C Longley
SG Jordan
PG ??????? (maybe they would have kept Harper, a SG, as the official PG and used Kukoc as a point forward)

Damn, I wish Krause had traded Pippen for Kemp in 94-95'! :D We would have been spared the "clear GOAT" nonsense and Pippen would have won rings as "the man" and the talk about him never winning as "the man" would never be there. Soopa, in your opinion where would Pip rank all-time if he went to Seattle and won 2-4 (95', 96', 97', 98' would all be great opportunities to win. Certainly they would be the favorite to win each year) rings there on top of the 3 he won in Chicago? Pip could have had 7 championships in 8 years. :eek:


This just shows what a hater you ar

No, that is the historical record. Who passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964? Kennedy proposed it but what does the historical record show regarding who passed it?


As for Pippen, he would never have become the player he became if it wasn't for MJ... He admits it himself...

Another MJ myth. What he said was Jordan helped him. And? Pippen helped Jordan as MJ has said. Teammates help each other all the time. Even retired players help current players. On the Bulls Miller is helping Noah and Hunter Rose. If Rose becomes a HOFer does that mean Hunter "made" Rose? Patrick Ewing greatly helped Yao and Dwight. Does anyone claim Ewing "made" them? Moses helped Hakeem. Did he make Hakeem? Only Jordan fans, because they view him as a god, make such ridiculous claims. Logic says if Jordan had this magic ability to make top HOFers from scratch he would have done it in Washington and Charlotte. Instead he can't even make an all-star and his teams are 0-7. Why? This is a man so obsessed with winning that he bought a Pac Man machine so he could practice to beat Dave Corzine at Pac Man in airport arcades. He isn't willing to do whatever it takes to make Gerald Wallace or Rip Hamilton HOFers? He is happy going 0-7 as a GM? Get real. If he could do it he would have. He can't. After all, while he may be the GOAT player he is not GOD.

Somebody did say he would never have become the player he became without a certain individual. Guess who that was? Did Kevin Loughery "make" Jordan?


Name the top 25.. I would love to hear this list....

To Jordan fans having Pippen in the top 25 is a shocker even though every non-MJ fan list has him around there. :oldlol:

[magnax1]

Once again, you over rate Pippen. Pippen+Kidd does not bring a title (well, it could but of they got really lucky and got an 03 Nets type team or he was on a 04 pistons style team it would. Otherwise, no chance) Pippen was great, but he did not have enough have enough impact to be a 1st option on a championship team, and he was never top 5 in the league.

He had the chance, as the best player on his team to get a ring, and in both 99, and 00 (when, he was still about the same player as 98, even though the stats don't show it. He really fell off after 98, and thats why the bulls struggled against the Jazz and Pacers more that year). Sure, Jordan had that chance in the late 80's, but did he have Rasheed Wallace, Hakeem, Barkley, Steve Smith, Damon Stoudamire, and Sabonis on his team? No, he had Charles oakley.

Don't think I don't like Pippen. I definitely hated him when he was one the Bulls, along with Jordan when they beat the Jazz out twice, but I really came to like both him, and Jordan more once they left the bulls.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen was great, but he did not have enough have enough impact to be a 1st option on a championship team, and he was never top 5 in the league.


How was he all-NBA first team and all-Defensive first team at his peak if he was not a top 5 player (some people had him as high as 2nd or 3rd)? In 95' he was voted the best all-around player in the league. By who? A poll of coaches, players, and GM's. You vastly underrate him. Fine. What is amusing, though, is everyone who seems to think they are middle-of-the-road on Pippen always vastly underrates him. He was one horrible foul call away from the ECF and probably the NBA finals in 94'--with Horace Grant as his second best player. Add Kidd and they couldn't do it? Pippen showed he could be the leader of a championship caliber team, even with scrubs starting at C and SG.

In 99' and 00' he was past his prime (as were Hakeem and Barkley). Do you think the Blazers lose with prime Pippen?

Jordan is supposed to be the "greatest of all-time." You are comparing that to what a guy who you think was never a top 5 player did past his prime? Wow. If the claims made about Jordan were accurate this comparison would not need to be invoked...


PHOENIX -- I walked up to each one of them and asked the question.

If you could be any other player here who would it be?

It was a question I'd asked 12 years ago to Dream Team III: Reggie Miller, Charles Barkley, Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Shaq.

Their answers lent insight into which players they respected, whose game they feared. Back then Scottie Pippen's name came up the most. Five out of the 12 players on that team wanted to be, even if for one game, Jordan's Green Hornet. When asked, "Why Pip?" it was Miller who explained it best: "Because Pippen can score only five points and still dominate a basketball game."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=jackson/090216

So Pippen was just another good player but he was the player most people on Dream Team III wanted to be? Here is who was on it: Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Karl Malone, Reggie Miller, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, Gary Payton, Scottie Pippen, Mitch Richmond, David Robinson, Glenn Robinson and John Stockton. You may not consider him a top 5 player but obviously coaches, players, and GM's considered him that. When he was on the trading block he commanded a high price. Seattle was willing to trade a young PF who was top 10 overall in Shawn Kemp for 29 year old Pippen. He wasn't being traded for Detlef Schrempf, a top 15 type at his peak.


Pippen May Lead Dream Team III
Chicago Sun-Times June 26, 1995

DALLAS Bulls forward Scottie Pippen and Hakeem Olajuwon of the NBA champion Houston Rockets and head the list of 10 players extended invitations to compete for the U.S. basketball team in the 1996 Summer Olympics, The Dallas Morning News reported Sunday.

Several sources involved in the selection process confirmed to the newspaper the core of the team that will represent the country in Atlanta has been selected.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-4289432.html

This was in the Chicago Sun-Times but the original report was from the Dallas Morning News. Notice who the headliners were. Remember who was on that team. Pippen and Hakeem were the headliners...

[indiefan23]

Who is a MJ fan? Not me. It kills you to see that Grant and BJ were the reasons of the Bulls success in 1994.

Jason Kidd took a worse team to the finals in a stronger time period.

What? The east was stronger when Kidd went to the finals? Since when? And since when is prime Keigth Van Horn/Kenyon Martin/Richard Jefferson not all star level help wether they made teams or not? And since when does playing with/without the GOAT mean you're better/worse? Do you really think that if Pippen was in Kidd's role as the lone superstar on a team they would never have gotten out of the first round? Its silly.

[indiefan23]

No order.

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Kobe
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem
11. West
12. Robertson
13. Dr. J
14. Isiah
15. Moses Malone
16. Karl Malone
17. Kevin Garnett
18. Charles Barkley
19. Admiral
20. Hondo
21. Ewing
22. Pippen
23. Bob Pettit
24. Elgin Baylor
25. Rick Barry

I love all time lists. They're always so arbitrary with no rhyme or reason beyond what those around you generally think. A big LOL at Kobe > Duncan though. If you don't count media coverage, Kobe is not even > Duncan this decade, let alone all time. And why's Hondo better then Ewing? Do you even have a reason? People will come up with some arbitrary measure like rings but then when you look at their list, they don't follow their own rules at all.

[indiefan23]

No order.

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Kobe
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem
11. West
12. Robertson
13. Dr. J
14. Isiah
15. Moses Malone
16. Karl Malone
17. Kevin Garnett
18. Charles Barkley
19. Admiral
20. Hondo
21. Ewing
22. Pippen
23. Bob Pettit
24. Elgin Baylor
25. Rick Barry

Here's a better one... why is hondo on your list, but John Stockton is not? What, 14.5 APG for a season, 58% assist% for a season, 51% career, all time leader in dimes AND steals is not good enough for a guy who was realistically 20/6? Or Bob Pettit who played vs a bunch of guys who could not dribble the ball with both hands?

[liljohnnywall]

pippen

[Roundball_Rock]

Do you really think that if Pippen was in Kidd's role as the lone superstar on a team they would never have gotten out of the first round? Its silly.

People always talk about his 6 rings and 94' but his most impressive season to me was 95'. He played 80% of that season without Jordan. Look at the team he had:

PF Kukoc/Dickey Simpkins/Corie Blount/Larry Krystkowiak
SF Pippen
C Will Perdue
SG Harper
PG Armstrong

Kukoc was soft and too weak to play PF. He averaged 5 boards as the "power forward" for much of the year. Who were the other guys?

Simpkins: A career 4/4/1 player
Blount: Another career 4/4/1 player
Krystkowiak: 8/5/1 for his career.

Will Perdue was a career scrub. 5/5/1 for his career.

Ron Harper was a 7/2/2 bust. He was brought in to be a 20 ppg second scorer behind Pippen.

Armstrong was a decent player. 14/2/3. Kukoc was decent too but not as a PF.

This was a team as bad as the teams KG had or the 05'-06' Lakers Kobe had. Everyone credits them for leading those teams to respectability but forgets Pippen did the same thing. Pippen had the team with a winning record and in 6th place in the East, only two games out of 5th (and they were gaining on 5th).

CluctchCover, having him there is common for Pippen. He usually is around 22-26 and sometimes gets into the top 20 for people who weight winning and/or defense. Of course to a Jordan fan who probably has Pip 45th having him that high is a shocker. :confusedshrug:


Here's a better one... why is hondo on your list, but John Stockton is not? What, 14.5 APG for a season, 58% assist% for a season, 51% career, all time leader in dimes AND steals is not good enough for a guy who was realistically 20/6? Or Bob Pettit who played vs a bunch of guys who could not dribble the ball with both hands?

Petit was all-NBA first team perennially while playing with Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West and Baylor. If they are credited for their achievements in that era Petiti should be too.

[Soopa]

The Bulls replaced Jordan with a CBA journeyman named Pete Myers and they only lost two more games then they did the previous year with Jordan. The Bulls also would have made it to the Eastern Conference Finals that year if it wasn't for Hue Hollins who called a phantom foul on Pippen during Game 5 of the ECSF against the Knicks.
Jordan never even made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen and never even had a record above .500 without Pippen. So what makes people think if Pippen played with Jason Kidd he wouldn't have won any rings?

The CBA was then NBA's minor league, in case you didn't know.

Jordan waited until the last minute to retire so the Bulls couldn't pick up a better free agent.



Also Hue Hollins phantom foul against Scottie Pippen is considerd one of the worst calls in sports history.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/readers/worstcalls.html


Bulls vs. Knicks, Game 5, Eastern Conference finals. No call has ever been nor ever will be more heinous than this travesty of justice.

Hollins calls a phantom foul on Scottie Pippen, who cleanly contested the 3-pointer by Hubert Davis in the waning seconds of the game and the Bulls clinging to a slim lead. Had Hollins done the correct thing, Davis would have missed the shot, and the Bulls would have stolen the pivotal fifth game (without the then-retired Michael Jordan!) in the Garden. Instead, Davis made three free throws to give the Knicks the lead, wresting the game out of the Bulls' clutches.

Chicago would have won the series in Game 6, but instead Hollins gave the Knicks the series in seven.

[NBASTATMAN]

No order.

1. Jordan
2. Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Bird
6. Magic
7. Kobe
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem
11. West
12. Robertson
13. Dr. J
14. Isiah
15. Moses Malone
16. Karl Malone
17. Kevin Garnett
18. Charles Barkley
19. Admiral
20. Hondo
21. Ewing
22. Pippen
23. Bob Pettit
24. Elgin Baylor
25. Rick Barry




Where is Clyde Drexler, Bob Cousy, George Mikan?All deserve a ranking higher than Pippen... .

[indiefan23]

reading problems? It says in no order.


Excuse me, seems that the list starts out with you know, the GOAT and progressively diminishes in talent does appear to be an order.

The idea that Jason Kidd is not better then Rick Barry boggles the mind. Or like, why is Pettit and Hondo on your list and Artis Gilmore, who's career dominated the poo right out of their's not? I can make a list of 25 arbitrary famous basketball players and not include someone on it too, but that's got no bearing on if they should be there or not.

[Roundball_Rock]

Also Hue Hollins calls phantom foul against Scottie Pippen is considerd one of the worst calls in sports history.

Google "Hue Hollins Scottie Pippen." This is the third or fourth hit: http://www.apakistannews.com/hue-hollins-calls-foul-against-scottie-pippen-2-123086

Even in Pakistan, not exactly a basketball bastion, the call is considered so bad it was newsworthy 15 years after it happened!

ESPN readers voted it the worst call in NBA history. http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/readers/worstcalls.html


7. Hue Hollins calls foul against Scottie Pippen (62 letters)
Bulls vs. Knicks, Game 5, Eastern Conference finals. No call has ever been nor ever will be more heinous than this travesty of justice.

Hollins calls a phantom foul on Scottie Pippen, who cleanly contested the 3-pointer by Hubert Davis in the waning seconds of the game and the Bulls clinging to a slim lead. Had Hollins done the correct thing, Davis would have missed the shot, and the Bulls would have stolen the pivotal fifth game (without the then-retired Michael Jordan!) in the Garden. Instead, Davis made three free throws to give the Knicks the lead, wresting the game out of the Bulls' clutches.

Chicago would have won the series in Game 6, but instead Hollins gave the Knicks the series in seven.
Aaron K.
Lombard, Ill.


The Bulls replaced Jordan with a CBA journeyman named Pete Myers and they only lost two more games then they did the previous year with Jordan. The Bulls also would have made it to the Eastern Conference Finals that year if it wasn't for Hue Hollins who called a phantom foul on Pippen during Game 5 of the ECSF against the Knicks.
Jordan never even made it past the first round of the playoffs without Pippen and never even had a record above .500 without Pippen. So what makes people think if Pippen played with Jason Kidd he wouldn't have won any rings?

The CBA was then NBA's minor league, in case you didn't know.

Jordan waited until the last minute to retire so the Bulls couldn't pick up a better free agent.

Pippen had a legit shot at winning a championship with scrubs playing C and SG. Myers was out of the NBA for two years until Jordan mysteriously retired right before the preseason. That is how bad Myers was. He couldn't even make it on a roster as a 12th man!

This team couldn't win?

PF Grant
SF Pippen
C Scrub
SG Scrub
PG Kidd

Bench: Kukoc, Armstrong


Where is Clyde Drexler, Bob Cousy, George Mikan?All deserve a ranking higher than Pippen... Crazy that you can put Kobe over SHAQ,DUNCAN AND HAKEEM..

It is in no order.

Drexler? 92' Pippen>peak Drexler (and prime Stockton) according to your hero MJ...

So you could only name three guys he should have ahead of Pippen. So your beef is Pippen should be 25th instead of 22nd???


The idea that Jason Kidd is not better then Rick Barry boggles the mind. Or like, why is Pettit and Hondo on your list and Artis Gilmore, who's career dominated the poo right out of their's not?

Petit, Hondo, and Barry all won championships. My guess is that is a factor in his ranking. Gilmore is rarely that high. Kidd is around the top 25-30 range on some lists but it depends on criteria and how much you penalize him for not winning a championship.

[Soopa]

Where is Clyde Drexler, Bob Cousy, George Mikan?All deserve a ranking higher than Pippen... Crazy that you can put Kobe over SHAQ,DUNCAN AND HAKEEM..

:roll:

Didn't Mikan play in the 1950's? (weakest era in NBA history)

I don't even think the league allowed minority players back then.

[raptorfan_dr07]

Imagine if the Bulls didn't get to swap Pippen for Olden Polynice.

Pippen goes to Seattle.

Payton/Pippen/Kemp/Schrempf etc. That's at least 6 or 7 ships.

OMGZ LOLZ Imagine imagine imagine if the Lakers never traded Vlade to Charlotte for Kobe. Prime Divac and Prime Shaq???? Does anyone beat that team??? The real twin towerz!!!! OMG!!! On the flip side, Kobe rots away in Charlotte and b*tches and pouts and moans like the selfish little baby he is and we all know him for what he truly is, a slightly more glorified Allen Iverson.


Honestly, just shut the f*ck up. I think everyone here almost gets a little dumber reading your posts.

:cheers: I was actually starting to think he was becoming a decent poster, but then he pulls out his low IQ posts like in this thread.

[raptorfan_dr07]

:roll:

Didn't Mikan play in the 1950's? (weakest era in NBA history)

I don't even think the league allowed minority players back then.

Mikan: 5 rings as the number one guy on his team, Kobe: 1 ring as the number one guy on his team.

Mikan>>>Kobe, deal with it. Don't sit there and :cry: :cry: :cry: like usual.

[Soopa]

He usually is around 22-26 and sometimes gets into the top 20 for people who weight winning and/or defense. Of course to a Jordan fan who probably has Pip 45th having him that high is a shocker.

Its crazy.

I have even head some analysts say Pippen didn't even deserve to be on the NBA's 50 greatest players list for the leagues 50th anniversary team.

[Soopa]

Mikan: 5 rings as the number one guy on his team, Kobe: 1 ring as the number one guy on his team.

Mikan>>>Kobe, deal with it. Don't sit there and :cry: :cry: :cry: like usual.


Honestly all jokes aside.....do you really think this guy is better then Kobe Bryant?

http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/2/2a/GeorgeMikan.jpg

[indiefan23]

Where is Clyde Drexler, Bob Cousy, George Mikan?All deserve a ranking higher than Pippen... Crazy that you can put Kobe over SHAQ,DUNCAN AND HAKEEM..

Where's 'Nique? I totally agree that Pippen is a top 25 player as well, I just disagree with these all time lists. I've never read one that didn't favor weaker players not cuz they deserve to be on such a list, but only because a bunch of people still fondly remember them.

Ya know, I remember when James Worthy was a top 50 all time player. He was really freaking good. But he just isn't anymore. 20 years have passed and too many amazing players have come, and gone, and he just got pushed out. Of course, I suppose that's if you consider someone like George Mikan a top 50 player. I really do not.

It will be tough when someone surpasses MJ, but hopefully when the time comes I'll be able to admit it and won't make excuses to have him higher on lists. If MJ can still be in the top 10 or even 100 in 50 more years of growth and advancement, it's truly a testament to how great he was that he's there without era excuses pushing him up the lists so more deserving players, like Kidd and Pippen today, get pushed down.

[Roundball_Rock]

Mikan: 5 rings as the number one guy on his team,

Mikan=GOAT? He dominated his era more than anyone else. If you guys want to give full credit to Mikan that means he has to be in the GOAT conversation.


OMGZ LOLZ Imagine imagine imagine if the Lakers never traded Vlade to Charlotte for Kobe. Prime Divac and Prime Shaq???? Does anyone beat that team??? The real twin towerz!!!! OMG!!! On the flip side, Kobe rots away in Charlotte and b*tches and pouts and moans like the selfish little baby he is and we all know him for what he truly is, a slightly more glorified Allen Iverson.

Read the thread. The Pippen to Seattle scenario came up only after a MJ stan acting as if Pip could not have won rings without MJ.


I have even head some analysts say Pippen didn't even deserve to be on the NBA's 50 greatest players list for the leagues 50th anniversary team.

Yeah, I remember J. Van Gundy saying that but we know why he is mad. :oldlol: Other than MJ stans, though, basically everyone has Pippen around top 20-25, give or take a few spots on either end. Slam had him 27th, ISH's poll two years had him 26th (since MJ fans weren't voting for him who knows how many spots higher he would have been without them) and Bill Simmons' best-seller has him 24th (and as the GOAT defensive forward, the second-best all-around player of the 90's and he says Pip may have been better than MJ in that regard). Simmons' book will influence far more opinions than MJ stans on the internet so the new generation will know how great he was thanks to that book. :rockon:

It is shame the Hollins atrocity happened. If he wins that year or even "just" gets to the NBA finals without Jordan how high would he be?

[NBASTATMAN]

Honestly all jokes aside.....do you really think this guy is better then Kobe Bryant?

http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/2/2a/GeorgeMikan.jpg

Well he has the rings to prove it... Even though the pic is funnyy

[NBASTATMAN]

Mikan=GOAT? He dominated his era more than anyone else. If you guys want to give full credit to Mikan that means he has to be in the GOAT conversation.



Yeah, I remember J. Van Gundy saying that but we know why he is mad. :oldlol: Other than MJ stans, though, basically everyone has Pippen around top 20-25, give or take a few spots on either end. Slam had him 27th, ISH's poll two years had him 26th (since MJ fans weren't voting for him who knows how many spots higher he would have been without them) and Bill Simmons' best-seller has him 24th (and as the GOAT defensive forward, the second-best all-around player of the 90's and he says Pip may have been better than MJ in that regard). Simmons' book will influence far more opinions than MJ stans on the internet so the new generation will know how great he was thanks to that book. :rockon:



shame the Hollins atrocity happened. If he wins that year or even "just" gets to the NBA finals without Jordan how high would he be?









Somewhat agree.. Imagine how high Pippen is if the 2000 Lakers weren't given game 7 WCF....


Webber would have been close to cracking the top 50 if he wasn't robbed in game 6 WCF vs the Lakers as well..


What if Kobe actually passed to Shaq in 2004 finals.. Kobe would have 5 and SHAQ would as well... They would both be locks for top 5....

[Roundball_Rock]

Somewhat agree.. Imagine how high Pippen is if the 2000 Lakers weren't given game 7 WCF....

He had a good chance at winning 8 championships in 10 years if it weren't for Hollins and some "questionable" calls at the end of Game 7 in 2000. The team collapsed against a superior team but the final score was still close and the refs didn't help things. Portland vs. Indiana in the NBA finals? Stern would have had a heart attack if that happened. :oldlol:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Well he has the rings to prove it... Even though the pic is funnyyFunny in the same way that this pic below is funny? A legend from the past eras should not have rank or physical ability determined by a photograph. :cheers:

http://i49.tinypic.com/13zwl76.jpg

[NBASTATMAN]

:roll:

Didn't Mikan play in the 1950's? (weakest era in NBA history)

I don't even think the league allowed minority players back then.


Aren't we rating guys on their careers...

[Roundball_Rock]

Aren't we rating guys on their careers...

Apparently not. If you guys are then Mikan has to be in the GOAT conversation. Who dominated his era more than Mikan did? Mikan did it while winning championships too. 5 titles in 6 years and in the other he made it to the the equivalent of the WCF.

[NBASTATMAN]

He had a good chance at winning 8 championships in 10 years if it weren't for Hollins and some "questionable" calls at the end of Game 7 in 2000. The team collapsed against a superior team but the final score was still close and the refs didn't help things. Portland vs. Indiana in the NBA finals? Stern would have had a heart attack if that happened. :oldlol:



Then Kobe and Shaq would suffer... I could live with that...

[Soopa]

This ''number one guy'' **** is really getting old.


It was a 1-2 punch. They both needed eachother. Shaq had an all star backcourt in Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones, but the Lakers couldn't win a title. it wasn't until Kobe developed and became a great player that Shaq was able to win his first title.

Kobe's playoff numbers during the 3 titles:
2000: 21pts 4 rebs 4 asts
2001: 29pts 7 rebs 6 asts
2002: 26pts 6 rebs 5 asts


Kobe was instrumental in the 3 championships the Lakers won. Shaq and Kobe were one of the greatest duos in NBA history. Give the man the respect he has earned.



I already know people are gonna say ''Kobe could have easily been replaced by any other all-star guard during that time''.

The same people who bring up that non sense but don't look at the scenario if Shaq was replaced by another all-star big man like Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett back then.

[NBASTATMAN]

Funny in the same way that this pic below is funny? A legend from the past eras should not have rank or physical ability determined by a photograph. :cheers:

http://i49.tinypic.com/13zwl76.jpg



Money looks like a better athlete than anyone in the NBA today.. This guy was sick...

[NBASTATMAN]

This ''number one guy'' **** is really getting old.


It was a 1-2 punch. They both needed eachother. Shaq had an all star backcourt in Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones, but the Lakers couldn't win a title. it wasn't until Kobe developed and became a great player that Shaq was able to win his first title.

Kobe's numbers during the 3 titles:
2000: 21pts 4 rebs 4 asts
2001: 29pts 7 rebs 6 asts
2002: 26pts 6 rebs 5 asts


Kobe was instrumental in the 3 championships the Lakers won. Shaq and Kobe were one of the greatest duos in NBA history. Give the man the respect he has earned.



I already know people are gonna say ''Kobe could have easily been replaced by any other all-star guard during that time''.

The same people who bring up that non sense but don't look at the scenario if Shaq was replaced by another all-star big man like Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett back then.



Kobe deserves respect.. But it wasn't kobe that made the Lakers a better team..The Lakers may have never won a title if not for Phil Jackson...

[NBASTATMAN]

This ''number one guy'' **** is really getting old.


It was a 1-2 punch. They both needed eachother. Shaq had an all star backcourt in Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones, but the Lakers couldn't win a title. it wasn't until Kobe developed and became a great player that Shaq was able to win his first title.

Kobe's playoff numbers during the 3 titles:
2000: 21pts 4 rebs 4 asts
2001: 29pts 7 rebs 6 asts
2002: 26pts 6 rebs 5 asts


Kobe was instrumental in the 3 championships the Lakers won. Shaq and Kobe were one of the greatest duos in NBA history. Give the man the respect he has earned.



I already know people are gonna say ''Kobe could have easily been replaced by any other all-star guard during that time''.

The same people who bring up that non sense but don't look at the scenario if Shaq was replaced by another all-star big man like Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett back then.




You could also bring up the fact that the Lakers only won their first TITLE cuz DUncan was injured.. If that doesn't happen ,WHO KNOWS.. They may have never won... The Lakers were really fortunate in their run... Derek anderson got hurt before the series vs the Lakers in 01.. Arron Mckie guarded Kobe with a broken ankle in the Finals... In 02 pEJA was injured and the Lakers got alot of help from the refs... IN 09 KG was injured...

[Roundball_Rock]

Then Kobe and Shaq would suffer... I could live with that...

Maybe, maybe not. Bird has 3 and he is still ranked with Shaq even though Shaq has 4 and with Magic, who has 5. Kobe has 4 and he is still behind Hakeem, who has 2. It is harder to move up when you get higher on the list. Pippen would easily be top 20 and maybe even top 15 if he had 8 titles in a decade, instead of being top 25 and sometimes top 20.


This ''number one guy'' **** is really getting old.


It was a 1-2 punch. They both needed eachother.

:applause: The "#1" guy thing is the most overrated thing in basketball. No one in other sports cares about that. Jerry Rice=0 rings as the "#1 guy". No one holds that against him when someone says Rice was greater than, say, Emmit Smith or Peyton Manning.



Kobe's numbers during the 3 titles:
2000: 21pts 4 rebs 4 asts
2001: 29pts 7 rebs 6 asts
2002: 26pts 6 rebs 5 asts


Kobe was instrumental in the 3 championships the Lakers won. Shaq and Kobe were one of the greatest duos in NBA history. Give the man the respect he has earned.



I already know people are gonna say ''Kobe could have easily been replaced by any other all-star guard during that time''.

The same people who bring up that non sense but don't look at the scenario if Shaq was replaced by another all-star big man like Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett back then.

:applause:


But it wasn't kobe that made the Lakers a better team..The Lakers may have never won a title if not for Phil Jackson...

Surely you realize the irony of those two sentences...

[indiefan23]

Petit was all-NBA first team perennially while playing with Russell, Wilt, Oscar, West and Baylor. If they are credited for their achievements in that era Petiti should be too.

Agree about Pippen. He's prolly in my top 10 honestly.

Agree about Pettit, but I don't give them credit for playing in that era because hoop stunk in that era, frankly. Basketball is a subjective, dynamic sport so it's difficult to measure how good people are at it since they are good in comparison to their competition.

If you took something like track, you can see times, it's scientific. You would never say runner x was better then Ussain Bolt, because no one has run faster then Bolt therefore no one has played 'running' better then him. This is a function of the competition being against a clock. It's unchanging. You never hear people say something like "yea, well, Frank Bannister is the greatest runner of all time, if he had the nutrition and training of runners today" because, firstly, no one actually cares about running, but more importantly, because it's just plain dumb. Bolt ran faster then anyone ever has, he's the fastest there ever was.

Why is Pettit on that list? He was really good. Sure. But lets say that he was a runner, and his competition, the clock, progressively got more accurate over time, and as you went back in time, clocks tended to be really slow, thus making running times faster, but improved every year.

Most hoop writers/fans would suggest to you that claiming runner x from 1940 deserves to be recognized as a better runner then Bolt. When you said "There is no way 1940's dude is better then Bolt! No way!" they'd come back at you with the number of races runner x won and a list of his times, telling you "look, in 1942 runner x finished the 100 M in a time half a second faster then Bolt! Bolt is #2 all time!" and you'll be like

"Obviously, the clocks were slow then, his times were not that fast."

and they'll respond:

"it's not about the actual times, it's about the gold medals"

and you'll obviously say

"no, it's not, if bolt ran back then he'd obviously run way faster since a clock today is exact and clocks then were a second slow"

and they'll say:

"That makes no sense. You can't compare eras and there are no time machines. if runner x had Bolt's advantages of nutrition and training he would totally cream him today"

and you'll obviously say:

"yea, but he didn't have those things, Ussain Bolt has run this race faster then anyone ever has. It really doesn't matter if player x needed a part time job to support his family and couldn't train as much. Bolt found a way to be a full time athlete. Training is what makes you a better athlete and run faster. Its why Bolt beat the guy in 6'th. Look at the times and compare them to the clocks taht are a second slow in 1940. Even the guy who came in 6'th vs bolt would have medaled in the germany olympics. The guys who did medal were the fastest then, but today, they just would not be that good. The training is why they are better today. The clocks is just why their times are comparable."

And, they'll jump like a scratched record:

"No man, count the gold medals!"

I don't mean to book, but this craziness is one of my favorite topics. Everyone seems so convinced that Bill Russel deserves special consideration, but never says squat about Pettit or Mikan. You are 100% right. Those guys do deserve the same consideration if it'd given to everyone else. What about the other dudes who deserve it too? I don't even know their names. The reality is that everyone puts these names into their lists without reason but merely because they feel they have to for public acceptance. No one under 40 legitimately believes Bill Russell could be a starting center on a championship team and square off vs prime Shaq, and most people over 40 who do are pretty much deluded. Anyone else, like Artis Gilmore, Mikan, Pettit don't get recognition because they didn't play on the Lakers or Celtics. Its just so political and farcical yet no one ever admits it.

[Soopa]

The "#1" guy thing is the most overrated thing in basketball. No one in other sports cares about that. Jerry Rice=0 rings as the "#1 guy". No one holds that against him when someone says Rice was greater than, say, Emmit Smith or Peyton Manning.



Great post.

I mean seriously some people act like Kobe was Rick Fox or Devean George status on the team or something.

[Roundball_Rock]

indie, good points. I forgot that you are one of the consistent people on the issue. A lot of people penalize Mikan (or Dolph Schayes) and to a lesser extent Petit for playing in a weaker era athletically but they don't say anything about the guys who played a few years after them in the 60's.


Great post.

I mean seriously some people act like Kobe was Rick Fox or Devean George status on the team or something.

It is all about their agenda. You can't argue winning overall for Jordan (he had a losing season 1/3 of the time) so they cling to the "rings as the #1 guy." They also conveniently ignore that Jordan would retire whenever the Bulls' dynasty would begin to totter. If Jordan played from 99'-01' that would mean three more losing seasons without Scottie and Jackson. Damn. That would be 0-8 without...

[indiefan23]

:applause: The "#1" guy thing is the most overrated thing in basketball. No one in other sports cares about that. Jerry Rice=0 rings as the "#1 guy". No one holds that against him when someone says Rice was greater than, say, Emmit Smith or Peyton Manning.


Hmm... yea, but that's because basketball is the only sport where one guy can take over any game and win it on his own. I mean, it's a good point and all, but Emmit Smith can't win vs a vastly superior team without his O Line or a decent one. Peyton Manning 'needs' a competent receiver. Sidney Crosby or Wayne 'need' at least a decent goalie. Lebron James or MJ or Shaq 'can' win a game all by themselves by taking over the 4'th quarter and deciding that they won't miss anymore. I've seen them do it in person. It's the one thing that makes hoop stand out. One player actually can beat a team.

[Roundball_Rock]

In a given game, yes, but not over a season and in the playoffs. If great players could then Lebron would have won a championship by now.

[indiefan23]

indie, good points. I forgot that you are one of the consistent people on the issue. A lot of people penalize Mikan (or Dolph Schayes) and to a lesser extent Petit for playing in a weaker era athletically but they don't say anything about the guys who played a few years after them in the 60's.

Yep, you're one of the few people who actually appreciates it. ;0

I've never made a top 50 list, but I imagine if I did and posted it in a thread it would be scoffed at by what, 99% of the people who post? I can tell you Bill Russell would not be making any appearances and Wilt would probably get in the back door. How would those crazed Wilt fans react to someone daring to rate Bill Walton ahead of him??? Could they cope with Jerry West not making the list?

[Roundball_Rock]

"Abe Lincoln" would got nuts if you did that! :roll:

[indiefan23]

In a given game, yes, but not over a season and in the playoffs. If great players could then Lebron would have won a championship by now.

I'm not so sure man. Lebron made the finals. He should not have. Wade made the playoffs. He should not have. Nash won 62 games with a team that won 29 the year before. The Spurs went from winning 59 games to 20 because David Robinson got hurt. One player in the NBA can literally be the difference be being the best and worst team in the league.

[PistonsFan#21]

Mikan: 5 rings as the number one guy on his team, Kobe: 1 ring as the number one guy on his team.

Mikan>>>Kobe, deal with it. Don't sit there and :cry: :cry: :cry: like usual.

Is Mikan also better than Duncan, Shaq, malone, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Isiha Thomas, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, etc?

[indiefan23]

"Abe Lincoln" would got nuts if you did that! :roll:

You know, I really should try to make a list. I don't even know how people consider Wilt so high. Compared to Walton? Career's, Walton of course was just hurt all the time but as players, I don't think it's even close. It'd take lots of time but reading the reactions would be just oh so entertaining.

[indiefan23]

Is Mikan also better than Duncan, Shaq, malone, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Isiha Thomas, Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, etc?

Mikan couldn't make a college, let alone a good HS team today. Remember, Bill Russell hadn't 'invented' jumping yet.

[NBASTATMAN]

Maybe, maybe not. Bird has 3 and he is still ranked with Shaq even though Shaq has 4 and with Magic, who has 5. Kobe has 4 and he is still behind Hakeem, who has 2. It is harder to move up when you get higher on the list. Pippen would easily be top 20 and maybe even top 15 if he had 8 titles in a decade, instead of being top 25 and sometimes top 20.



:applause: The "#1" guy thing is the most overrated thing in basketball. No one in other sports cares about that. Jerry Rice=0 rings as the "#1 guy". No one holds that against him when someone says Rice was greater than, say, Emmit Smith or Peyton Manning.



:applause:



Surely you realize the irony of those two sentences...


Not dissing kobe.. I am not one of the guys who thinks he could have been replaced by any other star guard.. But the facts are the facts... Kobe and Shaq were playing together.. Before Phil they were getting swept year and year...

[magnax1]

How was he all-NBA first team and all-Defensive first team at his peak if he was not a top 5 player (some people had him as high as 2nd or 3rd)? In 95' he was voted the best all-around player in the league. By who? A poll of coaches, players, and GM's. You vastly underrate him. Fine. What is amusing, though, is everyone who seems to think they are middle-of-the-road on Pippen always vastly underrates him. He was one horrible foul call away from the ECF and probably the NBA finals in 94'--with Horace Grant as his second best player. Add Kidd and they couldn't do it? Pippen showed he could be the leader of a championship caliber team, even with scrubs starting at C and SG.
Which of these players were worse than Pippen?
Jordan
Robinson
Barkley
Malone
Hakeem
Drexler
Ewing
Mourning
Dominique
Gary Payton
I'm not saying they're all better, but there are definitely 6 players that Pippen isn't even close to on that list. Pippen was best SF in the league for a good five or six years, but not a top 5 best player, except maybe in 94, when Jordan was gone.
And, Pippen had 3 chances to makes it to the finals, while he was the best player on his team, and the farthest he made it to was conference finals.

[Roundball_Rock]

Which of these players were worse than Pippen?
Jordan
Robinson
Barkley
Malone
Hakeem
Drexler
Ewing
Mourning
Dominique
Gary Payton
I'm not saying they're all better, but there are definitely 6 players that Pippen isn't even close to on that list.

Which six players? Who is the 6th? He was considered better than everyone on that list at some point other than Jordan, Hakeem, and maybe overrated David Robinson.

It depends on the year. As I showed, he definitely was considered top 5 at the time the same way, say, Wade or Chris Paul was last year. His peak years were 1994, 1995, and 1996.

1994: He was second best behind Hakeem.
1995: Third best behind Hakeem and Shaq.
1996: Third best behind Jordan and Hakeem. Shaq was injured for too much of the season to be top 5.
1997: Third best behind Jordan and Malone. Shaq again was injured for half the season.
1998: Pippen played at a top 5 level but missed half the season.
In 1992 and 1993 he wasn't top 5 but top 7-8.

Those are my assessments. How about what others think? guy is a knowledgeable poster and a MJ fan who won't be confused as a Pippen fan, although he does not hate Pip like most MJ fans. He ranked Pippen by season.


94 - top 5, only Hakeem and Robinson were better IMO.
95 - top 5, only Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Malone were better IMO.
96 - top 5, only Jordan, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone were better IMO. But if Shaq was healthy, he'd be in there, and I'd take Pippen out of the top 5.
97 - top 5, only Jordan, Malone, Hakeem, and arguably Hill were better. If Shaq was healthy he'd be in there taking Hill or Pippen's spot. I could give Robinson that Shaq label as well, but he missed pretty much the whole season, so thats a bit unfair.

91 - top 10, Jordan, Magic, Robinson, Barkley, Drexler, Malone, KJ, Ewing, and arguably Stockton are better. Hakeem when healthy might bump him or Stockton off.
92 - top 10, Jordan, Drexler, Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone are better.
93 - top 10, Jordan, Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, and Malone were better.
98 - Not top 10. Sorry, hard to put a guy that missed almost half the season in the top 10. Jordan, Malone, Shaq, Robinson, Duncan, Payton, Hill, Miller, Kidd, Hardaway were better. If Pippen doesn't miss nearly half the season, he's clearly better then Miller, Hardaway, and Kidd, and probably better then Payton and Hill.

Its not like I put a bunch of nobodies ahead of him, like Steve Smith or Mookie Blaylock like trolls do. For the most part, the main reason he's not such a sure-fire top 5 player is cause of Jordan + all the great centers that played in this era. He's ahead of alot of the players that I mentioned in certain years. He surpasses Drexler after 92, Barkley and Ewing after 93, he's ahead of Shaq until 95, etc.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3734950#post3734950

How about all-NBA and all-defensive teams?

1992: second team all-NBA, first team all-D
1993: third team all-NBA, first team all-D
1994: first team all-NBA, first team all-D
1995: first team all-NBA, first team all-D (named the best all-around player in the league by players, coaches, and GM's in a USA Today poll)
1996: first team all-NBA, first team all-D
1997: second team all-NBA (Hill took his spot, which is debatable since Hill was slightly better offensively but Pippen far better defensively. Of course, this was back when the NBA was looking at Hill and Penny to be MJ's replacements and they had a lot of hype around them.), first team all-D
1998: third team all-NBA, first team all-D. So he missed half the season and still made first team all-Defense and third team all-NBA. If he played the whole season he would have been on the second team, switching places with Vin Baker.

Does this look like the resume of a top 15, Joe Johnson type?


And, Pippen had 3 chances to makes it to the finals, while he was the best player on his team, and the farthest he made it to was conference finals.

That was discussed earlier. He was past his prime in 99' and 00'. The only time he had a chance in his prime was 94'. Still, you act as if coming within 2 minutes of a championship (everyone knows the WCF was the real championship series that year) is something to be ashamed of. How about comparing that three year record to that of the other players you mentioned?

Jordan: 1-9 in the playoffs, missed the playoffs twice without Pippen in five seasons
Hakeem: 2 championships, 3 NBA finals, 4 conference finals in 13-14 seasons as his team's best player. He lost in the first round 6 times, including four straight years. He also missed the playoffs once.
Robinson: 0 championships, 0 NBA finals, 1 conference finals in 8 seasons as the best player on his team. He lost in the first round 3 times.
Barkley: 0 championships, 1 NBA finals, 1 conference finals in 10 seasons as the best player on his team. He lost in the first round once and missed the playoffs another time.
Malone: 0 championships, 2 NBA finals, 5 conference finals. He lost 9 times in the first round as his team's best player from 1986-2003.

The point has been made. There is no need to go on to Drexler, Ewing, et al. So why hold Pippen to a special standard? That sounds like being a hater...


Not dissing kobe.. I am not one of the guys who thinks he could have been replaced by any other star guard.. But the facts are the facts... Kobe and Shaq were playing together.. Before Phil they were getting swept year and year...

Facts are facts. Why can you see that regarding Kobe but not regarding Jordan? Where was Jordan without Pippen and Jackson?

[NBASTATMAN]

Which six players? Who is the 6th? He was considered better than everyone on that list at some point other than Jordan, Hakeem, and maybe overrated David Robinson.

It depends on the year. As I showed, he definitely was considered top 5 at the time the same way, say, Wade or Chris Paul was last year. His peak years were 1994, 1995, and 1996.

1994: He was second best behind Hakeem.
1995: Third best behind Hakeem and Shaq.
1996: Third best behind Jordan and Hakeem. Shaq was injured for too much of the season to be top 5.
1997: Third best behind Jordan and Malone. Shaq again was injured for half the season.
1998: Pippen played at a top 5 level but missed half the season.
In 1992 and 1993 he wasn't top 5 but top 7-8.

Those are my assessments. How about what others think? guy is a knowledgeable poster and a MJ fan who won't be confused as a Pippen fan, although he does not hate Pip like most MJ fans. He ranked Pippen by season.



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3734950#post3734950

How about all-NBA and all-defensive teams?

1992: second team all-NBA, first team all-D
1993: third team all-NBA, first team all-D
1994: first team all-NBA, first team all-D
1995: first team all-NBA, first team all-D (named the best all-around player in the league by players, coaches, and GM's in a USA Today poll)
1996: first team all-NBA, first team all-D
1997: second team all-NBA (Hill took his spot, which is debatable since Hill was slightly better offensively but Pippen far better defensively. Of course, this was back when the NBA was looking at Hill and Penny to be MJ's replacements and they had a lot of hype around them.), first team all-D
1998: third team all-NBA, first team all-D. So he missed half the season and still made first team all-Defense and third team all-NBA. If he played the whole season he would have been on the second team, switching places with Vin Baker.

Does this look like the resume of a top 15, Joe Johnson type?



That was discussed earlier. He was past his prime in 99' and 00'. The only time he had a chance in his prime was 94'. Still, you act as if coming within 2 minutes of a championship (everyone knows the WCF was the real championship series that year) is something to be ashamed of. How about comparing that three year record to that of the other players you mentioned?

Jordan: 1-9 in the playoffs, missed the playoffs twice without Pippen in five seasons
Hakeem: 2 championships, 3 NBA finals, 4 conference finals in 13-14 seasons as his team's best player. He lost in the first round 6 times, including four straight years. He also missed the playoffs once.
Robinson: 0 championships, 0 NBA finals, 1 conference finals in 8 seasons as the best player on his team. He lost in the first round 3 times.
Barkley: 0 championships, 1 NBA finals, 1 conference finals in 10 seasons as the best player on his team. He lost in the first round once and missed the playoffs another time.
Malone: 0 championships, 2 NBA finals, 5 conference finals. He lost 9 times in the first round as his team's best player from 1986-2003.

The point has been made. There is no need to go on to Drexler, Ewing, et al. So why hold Pippen to a special standard? That sounds like being a hater...



Facts are facts. Why can you see that regarding Kobe but not regarding Jordan? Where was Jordan without Pippen and Jackson?


You have claimed in the past that Pippen was injured in the last three years of the bulls title run.. Yet you think the poster who states that Pippen is the third best player during that period in the game is correct.. Funny..Pips playoff numbers reflect that he had diminished as a player.. Rodman was not that great either.. Pip was great defensively though..

And yes Phil was the reason Mj started winning titles as well..Pippen was obviously a big part of the bulls .. Like I haven't stated that in the past.. Your problem is that if we don't have similar opinions to you regarding Pippen you think we are wrong.. Pippen was the third best player in the NBA in 1994... Hakeem, drob, pippen... That was his best season.. Still he didn't take the shot that helped the Bulls almost win vs the Knicks... Too many ifs....

[Roundball_Rock]

You have claimed in the past that Pippen was injured in the last three years of the bulls title run

Claimed? That is a fact (I thought you claim to have watched basketball back then?). You claim to have watched back then but don't know he played hurt in the playoffs each year? In the regular season he was healthy, except for the final fifth of the 96' season. Before that he was playing at a MVP caliber level--MJ himself was calling Pippen the MVP.


Pips playoff numbers reflect that he had diminished as a player..

No, they reflect foot, back, neck, and ankle injuries. His regular season numbers in 96' were on par with his 94' and 95' numbers (except for rebounding since Rodman was grabbing so many of them) before he got hurt. In 97' his numbers were slightly down but that was because of a slow start due to being hurt in 96' and not having time to recover because he along with Hakeem was leading Dream Team III. In the second half of the year he was scoring as much as Grant Hill. Even in 98' he scored 20 ppg after the all-star break (he struggled in his first few games back. He played only 14 games before the ASG). He declined by 98' but was still elite.

Here are the numbers:

94': 22/9/6 on 49% shooting
95': 21/8/5 on 48%. He was at 22 ppg before MJ came back)
96': 19/6/6 on 46%. He was at 21.3 ppg on 49% shooting before the ASG. He kept that up until getting hurt, which caused him to slip to 15 ppg and 41% shooting for the final one-fifth of the season.
97': 20/7/6 on 47%. He scored "only" 19.4 ppg on 46% in the first half of the season but was at 21.4 on 49% in the second half.

As you can see he was consistent whenever he was healthy. Regarding his shooting percentages, he took 200 three pointers in 94' but 300 in 95' and 400+ in 96' and 97'. He actually was more efficient than in 94' when you take this into account. His eFG% was 51.5% in 94' but 52.2%, 52.5% and 53.1% in 95'-97'.


Pippen was the third best player in the NBA in 1994... Hakeem, drob, pippen... That was his best season..

He got the most attention in 94' because Jordan was not there. He was as good in 95' and 96'. 96' may have been his best season. So he played at the same level, and dropped only slightly in 97', and was 3rd best in 94' but slipped to, what, 7th or 8th in 95' and 96' in your view?

Yeah, and Jordan didn't take the shot that prevented a Game 7 in Phoenix. Your point? What ifs matter regarding Pippen; they don't matter regarding Jordan?

[Sotheara]

I'm just surprised that you would even compare two players who play two different positions. I like both players, but each have their own strengths.

[juju151111]

Honestly, just shut the f*ck up. I think everyone here almost gets a little dumber reading your posts.
:roll: :applause:

[juju151111]

Yeah, that passes for an intelligent comment for a MJ fan. MJ fans have to have the lowest IQ of any fan group here. This isn't surprising. The dumber one is the more likely one is to be influenced by marketing and we know who had the biggest mass marketing campaign in the history of American sports behind him...
LOL I gave up arguing with you which is why i barley post in your threads anymore. I thought we had a agreement about this issue, i guest not. You keep claiming Pip would win titles with everyone MJ could. THE FACT IS PIPPEN ISN'T MJ AND IS NOT ON HIS LEVEL.

[magnax1]

Which six players? Who is the 6th? He was considered better than everyone on that list at some point other than Jordan, Hakeem, and maybe overrated David Robinson.

It depends on the year. As I showed, he definitely was considered top 5 at the time the same way, say, Wade or Chris Paul was last year. His peak years were 1994, 1995, and 1996.

1994: He was second best behind Hakeem.
1995: Third best behind Hakeem and Shaq.
1996: Third best behind Jordan and Hakeem. Shaq was injured for too much of the season to be top 5.
1997: Third best behind Jordan and Malone. Shaq again was injured for half the season.
1998: Pippen played at a top 5 level but missed half the season.
In 1992 and 1993 he wasn't top 5 but top 7-8.

Those are my assessments. How about what others think? guy is a knowledgeable poster and a MJ fan who won't be confused as a Pippen fan, although he does not hate Pip like most MJ fans. He ranked Pippen by season.



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3734950#post3734950

How about all-NBA and all-defensive teams?

1992: second team all-NBA, first team all-D
1993: third team all-NBA, first team all-D
1994: first team all-NBA, first team all-D
1995: first team all-NBA, first team all-D (named the best all-around player in the league by players, coaches, and GM's in a USA Today poll)
1996: first team all-NBA, first team all-D
1997: second team all-NBA (Hill took his spot, which is debatable since Hill was slightly better offensively but Pippen far better defensively. Of course, this was back when the NBA was looking at Hill and Penny to be MJ's replacements and they had a lot of hype around them.), first team all-D
1998: third team all-NBA, first team all-D. So he missed half the season and still made first team all-Defense and third team all-NBA. If he played the whole season he would have been on the second team, switching places with Vin Baker.

Does this look like the resume of a top 15, Joe Johnson type?



That was discussed earlier. He was past his prime in 99' and 00'. The only time he had a chance in his prime was 94'. Still, you act as if coming within 2 minutes of a championship (everyone knows the WCF was the real championship series that year) is something to be ashamed of. How about comparing that three year record to that of the other players you mentioned?

Jordan: 1-9 in the playoffs, missed the playoffs twice without Pippen in five seasons
Hakeem: 2 championships, 3 NBA finals, 4 conference finals in 13-14 seasons as his team's best player. He lost in the first round 6 times, including four straight years. He also missed the playoffs once.
Robinson: 0 championships, 0 NBA finals, 1 conference finals in 8 seasons as the best player on his team. He lost in the first round 3 times.
Barkley: 0 championships, 1 NBA finals, 1 conference finals in 10 seasons as the best player on his team. He lost in the first round once and missed the playoffs another time.
Malone: 0 championships, 2 NBA finals, 5 conference finals. He lost 9 times in the first round as his team's best player from 1986-2003.

The point has been made. There is no need to go on to Drexler, Ewing, et al. So why hold Pippen to a special standard? That sounds like being a hater...



Facts are facts. Why can you see that regarding Kobe but not regarding Jordan? Where was Jordan without Pippen and Jackson?
OK, let me just ask you a question. How was Pippen better than Prime Gary Payton? They both were great passers, great defenders, actually were almost exactly the same players, except the height and Payton's stupid shots selection. So what makes Pippen better? *Hint* He won 6 championships, and played with the best player ever.

[Roundball_Rock]

thought we had a agreement about this issue, i guest not.

?


You keep claiming Pip would win titles with everyone MJ could

I never said that. What I have said is Pippen could have won with the guys MJ fans cite (Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, et al.). Two very great players on the same team in their prime will win championships in the 90's or 00's given expansion (someone will cite Malone-Stockton. They would have won 2 championships but they ran into two greater players on the same team). Is that too hard to understand for someone like plowking?


So what makes Pippen better? *Hint* He won 6 championships, and played with the best player ever.

What makes Jordan better than Payton using your logic? They too were great passers, great defenders. A better comparison is Jordan and Drexler. Drexler did everything Jordan could do. He was Jordan-lite. So what made MJ better than them? He simply was. Just because players are similar does not mean they are equally as good.

Pippen never played with Kareem. Regarding Jordan, what does he have to do with Pippen in 94' and 95'? :oldlol: @ Pippen being nothing more than a glorified Joe Johnson type. You actually think you are middle-of-the-road on Pip? That is what is stunning on one level but not on another (everyone here who claims that vastly underrates him. One "middle-of-the-roader" had Pippen outside of the top 50 all-time).

Magnax, who is your favorite player of all-time?

[plowking]

This is basically Roundball's posts when talking about Jordan:

- I love Jordan, I'm a Bulls fan...

- Though he sucks, he didn't have winning records without Pippen.
- Pippen was a better defender.
- He wouldn't have won without Pippen.

- I love Jordan though.
- Remember, I'm a Bulls fan.

- Spouts more sh!t about Jordan sucking.

[Roundball_Rock]

There is more of that plowking intelligence on display. :bowdown:


- I love Jordan, I'm a Bulls fan...

I stopped liking Jordan after joining ISH. I am a Bulls fan--unlike most Jordan fans. There are only 2-3 who ever show up in Bulls game threads or post in the Bulls forum. Speaking of that, why are you, a Heat fan, such a MJ zealot? Is it because that franchise is so pathetic it has never produced an all-time great so you have to "borrow" Jordan?


Though he sucks, he didn't have winning records without Pippen.

How does the question of his record without Pippen always come up? I know you were influenced by McDonald's, Hanes, Nike, Space Jam, Ballpark hot dogs, catchy jingles, etc. in the biggest mass marketing campaign in sports history but you may be able to figure this one out.


Pippen was a better defender.

I didn't mention that fact in this thread.


He wouldn't have won without Pippen.

Idiocy. The post you quoted implicitly held that Jordan would have won championships with Jason Kidd. I'll try to explain it to you.

1) MJ fan says Jordan would have won championships with Kidd too
2) I say Jordan fans never look at the other side of the coin: Pippen also would win with the great players they cite.
3) Pippen would win with Kidd
4) Since Pippen would win with Kidd that means Jordan would too (assuming Jordan accepted that he had to give the ball to Kidd to allow him to do what he did. If he didn't then having Kidd would be pointless since he would be reduced to being a 40% shooting John Paxson).

Jordan sucking? He is top 2-4 all-time.

[magnax1]

?



I never said that. What I have said is Pippen could have won with the guys MJ fans cite (Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, et al.). Two very great players on the same team in their prime will win championships in the 90's or 00's given expansion (someone will cite Malone-Stockton. They would have won 2 championships but they ran into two greater players on the same team). Is that too hard to understand for someone like plowking?



What makes Jordan better than Payton using your logic? They too were great passers, great defenders. A better comparison is Jordan and Drexler. Drexler did everything Jordan could do. He was Jordan-lite. So what made MJ better than them? He simply was. Just because players are similar does not mean they are equally as good.

Pippen never played with Kareem. Regarding Jordan, what does he have to do with Pippen in 94' and 95'? :oldlol: @ Pippen being nothing more than a glorified Joe Johnson type. You actually think you are middle-of-the-road on Pip? That is what is stunning on one level but not on another (everyone here who claims that vastly underrates him. One "middle-of-the-roader" had Pippen outside of the top 50 all-time).

Magnax, who is your favorite player of all-time?
Pippen's best year
21 points, 8 assists 3 steals, 6 rebounds 48%
Payton's best year
20 points 8 assists 3 steals 4 rebounds 47%

Jordan's best year
33 points 8 assists 8 rebounds 3 steals 54%
Drexlers best year
27 points 6 assists 8 rebounds 2.5 steals 50%
Theres a difference between Jordan vs. Clyde and Payton vs. Pippen
And my favorite player ever is John Stockton, though i don't see how its relevant.

[Roundball_Rock]

Theres a difference between Jordan vs. Clyde and Payton vs. Pippen

Yeah--Drexler never led the league in FGA. Why did you use the 8 apg year? Jordan played PG. Drexler never did. How about comparing apples and apples?

1992 season (Drexler's best)

Jordan 30/6/6
Drexler 25/7/7

What made Jordan better? Him leading the league as usual with 1,800+ shots and Drexler taking less than 1,500?

Ah, a Jazz fan. That explains it. The non-MJ fans who are anti-Pip the most here tend to be Jazz and Knicks fans. :D

How about a contemporary example?

Zach Randolph's best year: 24/10/2
Pau Gasol's best year: 21/10/3

What makes Gasol better? The extra assist?

[juju151111]

?



I never said that. What I have said is Pippen could have won with the guys MJ fans cite (Hakeem, Shaq, Malone, Ewing, Barkley, Drexler, et al.). Two very great players on the same team in their prime will win championships in the 90's or 00's given expansion (someone will cite Malone-Stockton. They would have won 2 championships but they ran into two greater players on the same team). Is that too hard to understand for someone like plowking?



What makes Jordan better than Payton using your logic? They too were great passers, great defenders. A better comparison is Jordan and Drexler. Drexler did everything Jordan could do. He was Jordan-lite. So what made MJ better than them? He simply was. Just because players are similar does not mean they are equally as good.

Pippen never played with Kareem. Regarding Jordan, what does he have to do with Pippen in 94' and 95'? :oldlol: @ Pippen being nothing more than a glorified Joe Johnson type. You actually think you are middle-of-the-road on Pip? That is what is stunning on one level but not on another (everyone here who claims that vastly underrates him. One "middle-of-the-roader" had Pippen outside of the top 50 all-time).

Magnax, who is your favorite player of all-time?
I thought we agreed that Pip was top 25 and we won't bash either player. ?? Ithought we was talking about Kidd here. LOL Malone and stackton were better then Pip 97 and 98 wtf ran it to two greater player my ass. Payton can't score like MJ.

[Roundball_Rock]

I thought we agreed that Pip was top 25 and we won't bash either player. ?? Ithought we was talking about Kidd here. LOL Malone and stackton were better then Pip 97 and 98 wtf ran it to two greater player my ass. Payton can't score like MJ.

Did you read the thread? This thread's agenda was to bash Pippen. Read the first page and then come back. Jordan fans are the biggest hypocrites on ISH. They love to bash Pippen and Kobe yet complain when it triggers a response. The funniest part is they often use very bad arguments. Why? Because those arguments backfire on them by causing logical reactions that are unfavorable to Jordan like looking at Jordan's record without Pippen. That should be the last thing Jordan fans should want to bring up but they keep saying Pippen could not do anything without Jordan or Kobe could not without Shaq and even Kareem without Magic when Kareem is compared to Jordan.

Stockton was better than Pippen in 97' and 98'? Stockton was not even all-NBA in 98'. 12/8.5>Pippen? I thought you claimed not to hate Pippen? Stockton may be better than Pippen all-time but he wasn't better in 97' and 98'. Pippen and Stockton are usually ranked near each other btw--except by MJ fans...

[NBASTATMAN]

Claimed? That is a fact (I thought you claim to have watched basketball back then?). You claim to have watched back then but don't know he played hurt in the playoffs each year? In the regular season he was healthy, except for the final fifth of the 96' season. Before that he was playing at a MVP caliber level--MJ himself was calling Pippen the MVP.



No, they reflect foot, back, neck, and ankle injuries. His regular season numbers in 96' were on par with his 94' and 95' numbers (except for rebounding since Rodman was grabbing so many of them) before he got hurt. In 97' his numbers were slightly down but that was because of a slow start due to being hurt in 96' and not having time to recover because he along with Hakeem was leading Dream Team III. In the second half of the year he was scoring as much as Grant Hill. Even in 98' he scored 20 ppg after the all-star break (he struggled in his first few games back. He played only 14 games before the ASG). He declined by 98' but was still elite.

Here are the numbers:

94': 22/9/6 on 49% shooting
95': 21/8/5 on 48%. He was at 22 ppg before MJ came back)
96': 19/6/6 on 46%. He was at 21.3 ppg on 49% shooting before the ASG. He kept that up until getting hurt, which caused him to slip to 15 ppg and 41% shooting for the final one-fifth of the season.
97': 20/7/6 on 47%. He scored "only" 19.4 ppg on 46% in the first half of the season but was at 21.4 on 49% in the second half.

As you can see he was consistent whenever he was healthy. Regarding his shooting percentages, he took 200 three pointers in 94' but 300 in 95' and 400+ in 96' and 97'. He actually was more efficient than in 94' when you take this into account. His eFG% was 51.5% in 94' but 52.2%, 52.5% and 53.1% in 95'-97'.



He got the most attention in 94' because Jordan was not there. He was as good in 95' and 96'. 96' may have been his best season. So he played at the same level, and dropped only slightly in 97', and was 3rd best in 94' but slipped to, what, 7th or 8th in 95' and 96' in your view?

Yeah, and Jordan didn't take the shot that prevented a Game 7 in Phoenix. Your point? What ifs matter regarding Pippen; they don't matter regarding Jordan?


Jordan had something to do with that play... Pippen sat the bench...:lol

[magnax1]

Yeah--Drexler never led the league in FGA. Why did you use the 8 apg year? Jordan played PG. Drexler never did. How about comparing apples and apples?

1992 season (Drexler's best)

Jordan 30/6/6
Drexler 25/7/7

What made Jordan better? Him leading the league as usual with 1,800+ shots and Drexler taking less than 1,500?

Ah, a Jazz fan. That explains it. The non-MJ fans who are anti-Pip the most here tend to be Jazz and Knicks fans. :D

How about a contemporary example?

Zach Randolph's best year: 24/10/2
Pau Gasol's best year: 21/10/3

What makes Gasol better? The extra assist?
Well, if you don't like the 33-8-8 season, then 30-6-6 definitely isn't Jordan's best.
35 ppg 6 rpg 6 apg 3 spg 1.5 bpg 54% fg (50 wins)
27 ppg 8 rpg 6 apg 2.5 spg .7 bpg 50% fg (39 wins)
And if Jordan was forcing up so many shots why was his fg% still so much higher? Because he was just plain better.
And me being a Jazz fan has me disliking Jordan (or formerly disliking) more than I formerly Disliked Pippen. Jordan lost Utah 2 championships, and won 2 games all by himself in each series. I'm not arguing with you because I dislike Pippen. He was actually one of my favorite players once he left the Bulls. I'm arguing with you because you're over rating Pippen. A lot.
Point is Prime Pippen=Prime Payton, probably a notch higher, but not much.

[Roundball_Rock]

then 30-6-6 definitely isn't Jordan's best.

Still, he was considered better than Drexler that year. Why?


And if Jordan was forcing up so many shots why was his fg% still so much higher?

He wasn't forcing shots. He was taking a lot. Does the extra 5 ppg on 300 more shots and more FT's automatically make him better?


Point is Prime Pippen=Prime Payton, probably a notch higher, but not much.

What is your point? Prime Payton was a top 5 player. Payton is considered top 30-40 all-time. His ranking varies more because he never won a championship until he became a bench player. If you care about winning he is lower.

I am overrating Pippen by saying he was a top 5 player when nearly everyone at the time and everyone today, even some MJ fans, believes he was top 5 in his best years? :confusedshrug:

Yeah, Pippen had nothing to do with Utah losing those series. :D


Jordan had something to do with that play...

No, Pippen's penetration set that play up. The D shifted focus onto him, he passed to Grant who saw Paxson.

[juju151111]

Yeah--Drexler never led the league in FGA. Why did you use the 8 apg year? Jordan played PG. Drexler never did. How about comparing apples and apples?

1992 season (Drexler's best)

Jordan 30/6/6
Drexler 25/7/7

What made Jordan better? Him leading the league as usual with 1,800+ shots and Drexler taking less than 1,500?

Ah, a Jazz fan. That explains it. The non-MJ fans who are anti-Pip the most here tend to be Jazz and Knicks fans. :D

How about a contemporary example?

Zach Randolph's best year: 24/10/2
Pau Gasol's best year: 21/10/3

What makes Gasol better? The extra assist?
LOL yea and more stls blks, a better % from FT/FG% He also said peak year. LMAO posting BS won't help If you ever actually watch Zach play you would relized he is a beast on offense. He just doesn't play defense or team concepts good. The Memphis coach changed that tho which is why the grizz are beating top notch teams. He actually playing something that resembles defense.:lol oh yea MJ was also the superior defender to drexler failed again.

[NBASTATMAN]

Yeah--Drexler never led the league in FGA. Why did you use the 8 apg year? Jordan played PG. Drexler never did. How about comparing apples and apples?

1992 season (Drexler's best)

Jordan 30/6/6
Drexler 25/7/7

What made Jordan better? Him leading the league as usual with 1,800+ shots and Drexler taking less than 1,500?

Ah, a Jazz fan. That explains it. The non-MJ fans who are anti-Pip the most here tend to be Jazz and Knicks fans. :D

How about a contemporary example?

Zach Randolph's best year: 24/10/2
Pau Gasol's best year: 21/10/3

What makes Gasol better? The extra assist?


Isn't this when Laker fans write that "STATS DON'T MATTER":lol

[plowking]

You aren't a Bulls fan. You aren't as old as you claim you are. I guarantee you're a Kobe fan.

And no Bulls fan in the world has Jordan anything other than number 1, along with 95% of basketball fans.

[NBASTATMAN]

Still, he was considered better than Drexler that year. Why?



He wasn't forcing shots. He was taking a lot. Does the extra 5 ppg on 300 more shots and more FT's automatically make him better?



What is your point? Prime Payton was a top 5 player. Payton is considered top 30-40 all-time. His ranking varies more because he never won a championship until he became a bench player. If you care about winning he is lower.

Yeah, Pippen had nothing to do with Utah losing those series. :D



No, Pippen's penetration set that play up. The D shifted focus onto him, he passed to Grant who saw Paxson.


What did Pippen do to help Kukoc hit the winner VS THe knicks? THROW A CHAIR..

[magnax1]

Still, he was considered better than Drexler that year. Why?



He wasn't forcing shots. He was taking a lot. Does the extra 5 ppg on 300 more shots and more FT's automatically make him better?



What is your point? Prime Payton was a top 5 player. Payton is considered top 30-40 all-time. His ranking varies more because he never won a championship until he became a bench player.

Yeah, Pippen had nothing to do with Utah losing those series. :D



No, Pippen's penetration set that play up. The D shifted focus onto him, he passed to Grant who saw Paxson.
Lol, I actually really hate Payton. I'd say hes top 60,(I don't really see how you could rank him higher) and Pippen is top 50-35, and at Payton's best he was top 10 in the league, maybe lower. I never said Pippen didn't have a factor in the Bulls championship, just that Jordan was a much larger factor.

[juju151111]

Did you read the thread? This thread's agenda was to bash Pippen. Read the first page and then come back. Jordan fans are the biggest hypocrites on ISH. They love to bash Pippen and Kobe yet complain when it triggers a response. The funniest part is they often use very bad arguments. Why? Because those arguments backfire on them by causing logical reactions that are unfavorable to Jordan like looking at Jordan's record without Pippen. That should be the last thing Jordan fans should want to bring up but they keep saying Pippen could not do anything without Jordan or Kobe could not without Shaq and even Kareem without Magic when Kareem is compared to Jordan.

Stockton was better than Pippen in 97' and 98'? Stockton was not even all-NBA in 98'. 12/8.5>Pippen? I thought you claimed not to hate Pippen? Stockton may be better than Pippen all-time but he wasn't better in 97' and 98'. Pippen and Stockton are usually ranked near each other btw--except by MJ fans...
I am not the one bashing Pip here. I see you doing your ushal downgrade MJ thing and i respond its that simple. Pipp was injured in 98 and 97 they were comparable.

[NBASTATMAN]

Still, he was considered better than Drexler that year. Why?



He wasn't forcing shots. He was taking a lot. Does the extra 5 ppg on 300 more shots and more FT's automatically make him better?



What is your point? Prime Payton was a top 5 player. Payton is considered top 30-40 all-time. His ranking varies more because he never won a championship until he became a bench player. If you care about winning he is lower.

I am overrating Pippen by saying he was a top 5 player when nearly everyone at the time and everyone today, even some MJ fans, believes he was top 5 in his best years? :confusedshrug:

Yeah, Pippen had nothing to do with Utah losing those series. :D



No, Pippen's penetration set that play up. The D shifted focus onto him, he passed to Grant who saw Paxson.


Better question is why was Kobe better than Iverson in 05-06 .. Kobe avg 35 4ass,5 reb, I believe.. Iverson 33 pts ,7.4 ass, 3 reb and 1.9 steals and a better assist to turnover ratio..

[NBASTATMAN]

You aren't a Bulls fan. You aren't as old as you claim you are. I guarantee you're a Kobe fan.

And no Bulls fan in the world has Jordan anything other than number 1, along with 95% of basketball fans.


Everyone knows who this fool is...The other Pippen fan... :roll:

He just got a kobe tat on his arm... Thats sweet..

[Roundball_Rock]

You aren't a Bulls fan. You aren't as old as you claim you are. I guarantee you're a Kobe fan.

And no Bulls fan in the world has Jordan anything other than number 1, along with 95% of basketball fans.

Wow. You really have gotten dumber. :oldlol: Yeah, I watch nearly every Bulls game just to keep the facade of being a Bulls fan up because for some odd reason I am hiding being a Kobe fan. Wow. Why would I need to hide that? Moreover, why would I watch nearly every Suns game? What does that have to do with the alleged Kobe facade?

95% of basketball fans. For the same reason you have Schumacher #1 and could not even fathom that there are legit arguments for others. Correction. Not the exact same reason. Schumacher did not have the biggest marketing campaign in sports history behind him.

Yeah, I am faking my age. I somehow knew MS faced weak competition even as far back as 1994. How could I know and you not know? How old are you?


LOL yea and more stls blks, a better % from FT/FG% He also said peak year.

Whatever. It was just an example of two similar players with one just being better. Is this too hard for brilliant MJ fans to grasp?

Zach Randolph is never in the discussion of elite PF's. Why? He just isn't as good as the others, even though his stats are similar.


What did Pippen do to help Kukoc hit the winner VS THe knicks?

Get suspended for gambling days before the preseason started? :confusedshrug: See, MJ fans aren't the only ones who can go to the gutter if need be.

[GP_20]

Lol, I actually really hate Payton. I'd say hes top 60,(I don't really see how you could rank him higher) and Pippen is top 50-35, and at Payton's best he was top 10 in the league, maybe lower. I never said Pippen didn't have a factor in the Bulls championship, just that Jordan was a much larger factor.
Someone really needs to ban you. Payton Top 60? :oldlol:

Payton was arguably Top 5 multiple years, and I mean good argument.


As far as Pippen goes, I'd take peak Payton over peak Pippen. And I'd take both of them over peak Stockton. And that's the truth magnax. Stockton at his peak was worse than both. You're just so delusional.

[Roundball_Rock]

Lol, I actually really hate Payton. I'd say hes top 60,(I don't really see how you could rank him higher) and Pippen is top 50-35, and at Payton's best he was top 10 in the league, maybe lower. I never said Pippen didn't have a factor in the Bulls championship, just that Jordan was a much larger factor.

Hmm...So you underrate Pippen and Payton (compared to how most people rate them). I guess you don't value defense? Payton wasn't at least clear top 10 to you? We just have different things we look at and how we evaluate players. :cheers:


I am not the one bashing Pip here. I see you doing your ushal downgrade MJ thing and i respond its that simple. Pipp was injured in 98 and 97 they were comparable.

Read the thread. As usual, a MJ fan began the bashing. Why can't MJ fans understand the concept of sequence?

Pippen was all-NBA in both seasons and all-D first team. Pippen didn't get hurt in 97' until the playoffs.


Better question is why was Kobe better than Iverson in 05-06 .. Kobe avg 35 4ass,5 reb, I believe.. Iverson 33 pts ,7.4 ass, 3 reb and 1.9 steals and a better assist to turnover ratio..

They were close. It is hard to chose between them that season, although Kobe got more hype that year.

[juju151111]

Wow. You really have gotten dumber. :oldlol: Yeah, I watch nearly every Bulls game just to keep the facade of being a Bulls fan up because for some odd reason I am hiding being a Kobe fan. Wow. Why would I need to hide that? Moreover, why would I watch nearly every Suns game? What does that have to do with the alleged Kobe facade?

95% of basketball fans. For the same reason you have Schumacher #1 and could not even fathom that there are legit arguments for others. Correction. Not the exact same reason. Schumacher did not have the biggest marketing campaign in sports history behind him.



Whatever. It was just an example of two similar players with one just being better. Is this too hard for brilliant MJ fans to grasp?

Zach Randolph is never in the discussion of elite PF's. Why? He just isn't as good as the others, even though his stats are similar.



Get suspended for gambling days before the preseason started? :confusedshrug: See, MJ fans aren't the only ones who can go to the gutter if need be.
Zach Randolph isn't has good on defense. Zach could always score and rebound. He has found a coach who actually gets him to play team defense which is why Memphis is playing better. LOL Gasol wasn't either until recently. All Randolph needs to do is take a dump on someone in the playoffs and ISH will go ape ****. They have already slightly start making threads. Memphis makes playoffs its over.

[indiefan23]

Which of these players were worse than Pippen?
Jordan
Robinson
Barkley
Malone
Hakeem
Drexler
Ewing
Mourning
Dominique
Gary Payton
I'm not saying they're all better, but there are definitely 6 players that Pippen isn't even close to on that list. Pippen was best SF in the league for a good five or six years, but not a top 5 best player, except maybe in 94, when Jordan was gone.
And, Pippen had 3 chances to makes it to the finals, while he was the best player on his team, and the farthest he made it to was conference finals.

Hmm... ya know I totally disagree. Pippen sacrificed his game immeasurably to be on the best team of all time. He won't have the same stats as those guys cuz they were the #1 guys on their teams. Much as you say 94, you know you're taking the career of those players, not the 94 season, and using that to compare vs Pippen's single year as the man.

Why would you take Payton's fewer points, rebound, assists and steals over Pippen? Or Chuck's weaker and much, much less versatile defence? Drexler's numbers are all worse too. Robinson, you have a bit of a case, but not much of one. Was David Robinson obviously a better center then Scotti was a better small forward? Pippen was pretty much peerless at the 3, while Robinson was not at the 5.

Unless you're comparing a 3 to a bunch of 4's and 5's so people look at their rebounds and don't realize that's mostly because their position dictates they grab lots of boards while Pippen's will have him out guarding the best guy shooting the ball night in and night out. Given all that, Scotti has what, a board or two less then Mourning and shoots .01 lesser FG% then a center? And you're even asking if he's better or not?

[juju151111]

Hmm...So you underrate Pippen and Payton (compared to how most people rate them). I guess you don't value defense? Payton wasn't even clear top 10 to you? We just have different things we look at and how we evaluate players. :cheers:



Read the thread. As usual, a MJ fan began the bashing. Why can't MJ fans understand the concept of sequence?

Pippen was all-NBA in both seasons and all-D first team. Pippen didn't get hurt in 97' until the playoffs.



They were close. It is hard to chose between them that season, although Kobe got more hype that year.
I said 97 they were comparable and 98 Pip was injured.I did read the thread. Like i told you multiple times, if you downgrading MJ to make your point means noting.

[indiefan23]

Read the thread. As usual, a MJ fan began the bashing. Why can't MJ fans understand the concept of sequence?

I'm a massive, massive MJ fan. Huge. I still think Pippen deserved finals MVP in 98. Most MJ fans are actually huge Pippen fans.


They were close. It is hard to chose between them that season, although Kobe got more hype that year.

Ha, not for me it wasn't. That season was shameful, and not for Iverson.

[indiefan23]

What is your point? Prime Payton was a top 5 player.

Wasn't it 94 Payton? Even prime Payton doesn't touch Scotti's game.


Payton is considered top 30-40 all-time. His ranking varies more because he never won a championship until he became a bench player. If you care about winning he is lower.

Again, Payton is probably top, what, 20? It's difficult to not see him there. Which points would ever beat Payton? Not many.

[Roundball_Rock]

Zach Randolph isn't has good on defense. Zach could always score and rebound. He has found a coach who actually gets him to play team defense which is why Memphis is playing better. LOL Gasol wasn't either until recently. All Randolph needs to do is take a dump on someone in the playoffs and ISH will go ape ****. They have already slightly start making threads. Memphis makes playoffs its over.

The point is players can have similar stats but not be equal.


Unless you're comparing a 3 to a bunch of 4's and 5's so people look at their rebounds and don't realize that's mostly because their position dictates they grab lots of boards while Pippen's will have him out guarding the best guy shooting the ball night in and night out.

Great post, indiefan. I don't agree with you on everything but your posts are always well-reasoned and well-argued. A lot of people are seduced by rebounding numbers. Look at the top players of the 90's. They were all centers or power forwards except for Jordan, Pippen, Payton, and for brief periods Drexler and Hill. So a Malone is always going to have more boards. If you ask people to rank perimeter players then Pippen would get his due. Jordan was better. Payton had a case but that is it. At worst Pippen was the third best perimeter player of the 90's and was hands down the best SF. That isn't a great player?


I said 97 they were comparable and 98 Pip was injured.I did read the thread. Like i told you multiple times, if you downgrading MJ to make your point means noting.

If MJ fans are going to attack Pip what do they expect? When MJ fans cease do you see me bashing MJ?

In 97' they were comparable? Stockton was not even all-NBA third team, not on the all-D team and not an all-star. That is comparable to Pippen, who had a strong case for being top 5 in the league? :wtf:


I'm a massive, massive MJ fan. Huge. I still think Pippen deserved finals MVP in 98. Most MJ fans are actually huge Pippen fans.

I agree. Look at the Bulls fans here. You never see them bashing Pippen (i.e. kshutts, 97_bulls, Undisputed, Conan, GreatGreg, tamara). There are only 2-3 real Bulls fans who bash Pippen. The others are MJ zealots who left the Bulls when MJ did (many of them seem to be on the Lebron bandwagon now). Regular MJ fans and regular Bulls fans love Pip.

[juju151111]

I'm a massive, massive MJ fan. Huge. I still think Pippen deserved finals MVP in 98. Most MJ fans are actually huge Pippen fans.



Ha, not for me it wasn't. That season was shameful, and not for Iverson.
Exactly, before ISH i loved pip(still do reaally), but the crap that comed out of posters is crazy).

[Roundball_Rock]

Exactly, before ISH i loved pip(still do reaally), but the crap that comed out of posters is crazy).

Why can't you see the same thing happens in the other direction with Pippen fans and MJ? It is Jordan fans always bashing Pippen, not the other way around. Pip fans defend him. Jordan fans are consistently the aggressors yet act as if Jordan is unfairly maligned.

[indiefan23]

I thought we agreed that Pip was top 25 and we won't bash either player. ?? Ithought we was talking about Kidd here. LOL Malone and stackton were better then Pip 97 and 98 wtf ran it to two greater player my ass. Payton can't score like MJ.

Sorry, Scotti Pippen decimated Karl Malone's soul in the 98 finals. Karl Malone deserves credit for nothing. Stockton = The Utah Jazz. The same way people say 'put a star guard with Kobe' (which I do support) I say 'put a star forward with Stockton'. People (and MVP voters) pretend like the difficult part in executing a pick/roll is finishing a layup with an open lane or taking an open jump shot on the shoulder, not choosing which to execute at the exact right moment and in an instant.

**** karl malone.

[indiefan23]

Exactly, before ISH i loved pip(still do reaally), but the crap that comed out of posters is crazy).

I dun get the ISH, so to speak. Jordan's the GOAT, what's wrong with Pippen sacrificing his numbers to win. That's exactly what happened. Everyone knows he could have been The Man on another team but that team would not have had the same success. Pippen chose the personal glory of team domination instead of sulking that he wasn't leading the league in scoring. I mean, shouldn't that be commended? You say Pippen is top 25... is it really so difficult to accept that the high end of a top 25 ranking is that he's the 10'th best player all time? The semantics needed to argue that Pippen is 23, say ( :) ) and I dunno, Jerry West is 10, are pretty much endless.

[juju151111]

The point is players can have similar stats but not be equal.



Great post, indiefan. I don't agree with you on everything but your posts are always well-reasoned and well-argued. A lot of people are seduced by rebounding numbers. Look at the top players of the 90's. They were all centers or power forwards except for Jordan, Pippen, Payton, and for brief periods Drexler and Hill. So a Malone is always going to have more boards. If you ask people to rank perimeter players then Pippen would get his due. Jordan was better. Payton had a case but that is it. At worst Pippen was the third best perimeter player of the 90's and was hands down the best SF. That isn't a great player?



If MJ fans are going to attack Pip what do they expect? When MJ fans cease do you see me bashing MJ?

In 97' they were comparable? Stockton was not even all-NBA third team, not on the all-D team and not an all-star. That is comparable to Pippen, who had a strong case for being top 5 in the league? :wtf:



I agree. Look at the Bulls fans here. You never see them bashing Pippen (i.e. kshutts, 97_bulls, Undisputed, Conan, GreatGreg, tamara). There are only 2-3 real Bulls fans who bash Pippen. The others are MJ zealots who left the Bulls when MJ did (many of them seem to be on the Lebron bandwagon now). Regular MJ fans and regular Bulls fans love Pip.
When i first joined Ish i use to defend Pip. Goat perimeter defender etc.. but during early 2008 when KB fans went ape**** and claiming MJ was led by Pip and KB will be goat i couldn't take it anymore. When they loss to the Celtics LA fans got back to reality. Even when they won in 09 they it wasn't like how 08 was. Freaking idiots.

[Roundball_Rock]

:applause: Pippen sacrificed his stats to win yet some hold that against him. Isn't that what we say we want out of superstars?

He sacrificed more when Jordan was there but he did it even when MJ was retired.


It was Pippen who directed the triangle offense, enabling Jordan to get in position on the wing to attack the defense. It was Pippen who was the good teammate. Steve Kerr used to say how Pippen not only would get you the good shot, Pippen knew when you were slumping or hadn't had a shot in a while and he'd work the offense to get you a good shot to get going. It was Pippen who was the more favored teammate.

One definition of greatness is making other players better, and Pippen did that.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1895719

But since Pippen was sacrificing personal glory to give the Steve Kerrs of the world a good shot people today hold it against him because he did not score 30 ppg chucking the ball instead of helping his teammates--and yes, making them better! This is why he has 6 rings while some others who scored a lot have none...


When i first joined Ish i use to defend Pip.

Yeah, and I used to defend MJ.

What is this Kobe thing? I rarely see Kobe fans in Pippen threads defending him. If there is a conspiracy of Kobe fans seeking to praise Pippen 95% of them didn't get the memo!

[juju151111]

Sorry, Scotti Pippen decimated Karl Malone's soul in the 98 finals. Karl Malone deserves credit for nothing. Stockton = The Utah Jazz. The same way people say 'put a star guard with Kobe' (which I do support) I say 'put a star forward with Stockton'. People (and MVP voters) pretend like the difficult part in executing a pick/roll is finishing a layup with an open lane or taking an open jump shot on the shoulder, not choosing which to execute at the exact right moment and in an instant.

**** karl malone.
WE can't really judge because they played with each other their whole prime. Nba fans who just started watching would think Amare isn't noting without Nash which is crap.

[indiefan23]

Why can't you see the same thing happens in the other direction with Pippen fans and MJ? It is Jordan fans always bashing Pippen, not the other way around. Pip fans defend him. Jordan fans are consistently the aggressors yet act as if Jordan is unfairly maligned.

I don't think Jordan fans bash Pippen. Jordan fans defend Jordan when lamers say 'he needed Pippen to win'. Neither needed each other to 'win'. They did need each other to be the best team of all time, though.

Pippen will always be under rated cuz he was #2. The Bulls were #1 all time though because of equal parts of Jordan's greatness as the GOAT and Pippen's sacrifice as the second best player who's better then everyone else in the league. Shaq/Kobe were dominant because Kobe was a really awesome player for a #2. They won way less because Kobe couldn't do what Pippen did and they won 3 rings instead of like, 7 or 8. I give Pip credit for that. When you're happy to be a great winner instead of a great individual player you always get huge credit in my books.

[Roundball_Rock]

I don't think Jordan fans bash Pippen. Jordan fans defend Jordan when lamers say 'he needed Pippen to win'. Neither needed each other to 'win'. They did need each other to be the best team of all time, though.

Pippen will always be under rated cuz he was #2. The Bulls were #1 all time though because of equal parts of Jordan's greatness as the GOAT and Pippen's sacrifice as the second best player who's better then everyone else in the league. Shaq/Kobe were dominant because Kobe was a really awesome player for a #2. They won way less because Kobe couldn't do what Pippen did and they won 3 rings instead of like, 7 or 8. I give Pip credit for that. When you're happy to be a great winner instead of a great individual player you always get huge credit in my books.

Great post. :applause: Pippen did what everyone says we want superstars to do and then many people criticize him for it?

I should say Jordan zealots on ISH as opposed to MJ fans in general. There are about a dozen of them who are in every Pippen thread diminishing him.

[indiefan23]

WE can't really judge because they played with each other their whole prime. Nba fans who just started watching would think Amare isn't noting without Nash which is crap.

Granted, but the only thing is that Jordan obviously gets full credit for his greatness. Pippen does not. I think being the #2 on 2 separate GOAT teams with totally different players built around you means you're better then lots of #1's. I full believe they made each other much better players.

[indiefan23]

WE can't really judge because they played with each other their whole prime. Nba fans who just started watching would think Amare isn't noting without Nash which is crap.

John Stockton had a season where he had an assist% of 58%. Of the top 10 assist%'s in league history John Stockton has 7 of them. His career assist % is 51%. Here are some noteables stats:

Nash

Max:50%

Career:39%


Kidd

Max: 45%

Career: 40%


Magic

Max: 49%

Career: 40%


Williams

Max: 48%

Career:41%


Paul

Max: 54%

Career:47%


Isiah

Max: 47%

Career: 37%

So Stockton's 18 year career assist % is better then the best seasonal assist % of every single one of the greatest point guards of all time. (note: Paul is not there yet, I conceed that the awesomeness of CP3 is comparable to Stockton, but I sincerely doubt CP3 will be banging off 10 APG seasons at the age of 35, 'n that's cuz Stockton is actually a better PG then he is, while Paul is a freak). Of the top 10 APG stats in history, John Stockton's name is beside numbers 1 through 6. 14.5 dimes a game being #1. He's the all time leader in Assists by well almost 5,500 dimes. 5.5 k, yes, that many. Jason Kidd is #2 and will never catch him. He leads Michael Jordan in steals by over 700. Lastly, Stockton did all this in the toughest defensive era for a guard to play in. Playing in today's guard friendly defenses, his dimes approach 20 per game and he scores many more points.

Karl Malone won 2 MVP awards for being the second best player on his team. Karl Malone's biggest accomplishment is the only stat Stockton affected: scoring. Karl Malone loved to take credit for Jazz wins and losses, and I hated him for both. He's a douche, a loser and a choker who cost the greatest pure PG ever NBA titles. In more situations then his chokes in the finals.

I hate Karl Malone because he deserves it. Yes, we can judge. He sucks and is an over-rated pile of poo.

[Da_Realist]

I don't think Jordan fans bash Pippen. Jordan fans defend Jordan when lamers say 'he needed Pippen to win'. Neither needed each other to 'win'. They did need each other to be the best team of all time, though.

Pippen will always be under rated cuz he was #2. The Bulls were #1 all time though because of equal parts of Jordan's greatness as the GOAT and Pippen's sacrifice as the second best player who's better then everyone else in the league. Shaq/Kobe were dominant because Kobe was a really awesome player for a #2. They won way less because Kobe couldn't do what Pippen did and they won 3 rings instead of like, 7 or 8. I give Pip credit for that. When you're happy to be a great winner instead of a great individual player you always get huge credit in my books.

I agree. But in Kobe's defense...Kobe had more talent. Pippen made sacrifices that I'm truly grateful for but he never had the talent that Kobe has. To say Kobe should have been more like Pippen is true but it would have been a bigger sacrifice for Kobe to make than it was for Pippen to make.

When you have that much talent... It still doesn't excuse selfishness, I'm just saying it's a bigger temptation to takeover when you have the talent to takeover. Pippen's game was complimentary from the beginning. It was a natural choice for him to play that role because that was his strength.

[indiefan23]

I agree. But in Kobe's defense...Kobe had more talent. Pippen made sacrifices that I'm truly grateful for but he never had the talent that Kobe has. To say Kobe should have been more like Pippen is true but it would have been a bigger sacrifice for Kobe to make than it was for Pippen to make.

When you have that much talent... It still doesn't excuse selfishness, I'm just saying it's a bigger temptation to takeover when you have the talent to takeover. Pippen's game was complimentary from the beginning. It was a natural choice for him to play that role because that was his strength.

Hmm... when you show me Kobe shutting down Karl Malone in the finals and averaging 7 dimes/7.7 boards, 2 steals, a block and over 50% shooting. I'll agree with you. Actually, when you just show me a solid performance in the finals by Kobe I'll consider it. Or if you show me Pippen shooting 17% from anywhere in any series at all.

Pippen's role was being one of the very best players of all time. On my all time list, he's 'way' higher then Kobe cuz he does way more to win then Kobe, frankly. Pippen didn't do anything to lose either. He had every opportunity to feud with Jordan who I'd imagine is a lot more difficult to get along with then Shaq.

And WTF... Kobe and Pippen were both #2 players. Shaq got traded and Kobe got legitimate talent back for Shaq, and promptly won 34 games. Jordan left and they replaced him with a CBA scrub and the Bulls lost like, 6 more games then they did with Jordan. Complementary player my ass. I would take Pippen over Kobe 11 times out of 10, and whoever took Kobe would lose in a match up 12 out of 10.

[Da_Realist]

Hmm... when you show me Kobe shutting down Karl Malone in the finals and averaging 7 dimes/7.7 boards, 2 steals, a block and over 50% shooting. I'll agree with you. Actually, when you just show me a solid performance in the finals by Kobe I'll consider it. Or if you show me Pippen shooting 17% from anywhere in any series at all.

Pippen's role was being one of the very best players of all time. On my all time list, he's 'way' higher then Kobe cuz he does way more to win then Kobe, frankly. Pippen didn't do anything to lose either. He had every opportunity to feud with Jordan who I'd imagine is a lot more difficult to get along with then Shaq.

And WTF... Kobe and Pippen were both #2 players. Shaq got traded and Kobe got legitimate talent back for Shaq, and promptly won 34 games. Jordan left and they replaced him with a CBA scrub and the Bulls lost like, 6 more games then they did with Jordan. Complementary player my ass. I would take Pippen over Kobe 11 times out of 10, and whoever took Kobe would lose in a match up 12 out of 10.

It's not about who is "better". If you're asking me who I prefer, then I would say Pippen. I'm just saying that Pippen's skill set is no match for Kobe's. Kobe has more talent than Pippen did. When you can do the things with the basketball that Kobe can do, it's a much harder choice to accept a complimentary role. Pippen's strengths fit his game. Defense, ball movement, team sacrifice. Pippen wasn't the dynamic playmaker (or rather, shotmaker) that Kobe is. When you have that ability, it's a bigger sacrifice to sacrifice.

[indiefan23]

It's not about who is "better". If you're asking me who I prefer, then I would say Pippen. I'm just saying that Pippen's skill set is no match for Kobe's. Kobe has more talent than Pippen did. When you can do the things with the basketball that Kobe can do, it's a much harder choice to accept a complimentary role. Pippen's strengths fit his game. Defense, ball movement, team sacrifice. Pippen wasn't the dynamic playmaker (or rather, shotmaker) that Kobe is. When you have that ability, it's a bigger sacrifice to sacrifice.

Why wasn't he? If Kobe was a better shot maker wouldn't he have averaged over 50% like Pippen did? Wouldn't he have a better career FG%? The reality is that Kobe hits harder shots, but Pippen didn't take them. Pippen's play destorys Kobe's in the playoffs and in the finals.

Also, lets not get confused. We are comparing the careers here, not 10 Kobe to the career of Pippen. Kobe's the rare player that does improve every year and credit is due there, but Pippen was better way earlier. Kobe spent years getting swept out of the playoffs with Shaq every year and forcing bad shots like crazy. If you want to say that Kobe is a better scorer that's fine, but you'll need to find a reason why Pippen literally put the ball through the basket more efficiently. Pippen was less flashy, and that's for sure, but a better skill set is hardly true when Pippen owns him in every category except PPG, which Kobe is only a little better at with 5 more PPG without actually playing past his prime yet. Pippen's stats include years playing to 38. As stated, if Pippen played for 8 years without Jordan as the #1 scoring option, don't you think Pippen's PPG would be a little closer to 25? 5 more PPG and doing 'everything' else at a lower level to me does not indicate having unquestionably better talent then a guy who's scoring average is obviously affected by playing behind the GOAT scorer and playing till he was 38.

I appreciate what you're getting at, but hitting difficult shots is not nearly as good a skill as not taking them. Especially considering the first half of his career, Kobe has forced more bad shots then almost anyone I can think of. I hardly remember Pippen taking a bad shot.

[Da_Realist]

Why wasn't he? If Kobe was a better shot maker wouldn't he have averaged over 50% like Pippen did? Wouldn't he have a better career FG%? The reality is that Kobe hits harder shots, but Pippen didn't take them. Pippen's play destorys Kobe's in the playoffs and in the finals.

Also, lets not get confused. We are comparing the careers here, not 10 Kobe to the career of Pippen. Kobe's the rare player that does improve every year and credit is due there, but Pippen was better way earlier. Kobe spent years getting swept out of the playoffs with Shaq every year and forcing bad shots like crazy. If you want to say that Kobe is a better scorer that's fine, but you'll need to find a reason why Pippen literally put the ball through the basket more efficiently. Pippen was less flashy, and that's for sure, but a better skill set is hardly true when Pippen owns him in every category except PPG, which Kobe is only a little better at with 5 more PPG without actually playing past his prime yet. Pippen's stats include years playing to 38. As stated, if Pippen played for 8 years without Jordan as the #1 scoring option, don't you think Pippen's PPG would be a little closer to 25? 5 more PPG and doing 'everything' else at a lower level to me does not indicate having unquestionably better talent then a guy who's scoring average is obviously affected by playing behind the GOAT scorer and playing till he was 38.

I appreciate what you're getting at, but hitting difficult shots is not nearly as good a skill as not taking them. Especially considering the first half of his career, Kobe has forced more bad shots then almost anyone I can think of. I hardly remember Pippen taking a bad shot.

Kobe has the mentality of wanting to be the man and his game fit that mentality. Putting the ball through the basket, being a closer... however good he is at it is irrelevant.

Pippen's game was of being a set up guy. He set the table, made sure everyone at the table ate and did the little things to keep the team successful. Closer, he was not. In the last 5 mins of the game, the Bulls didn't look to Pippen. It's different in the last 5 mins of the game. That's when Pippen needed a closer, but Kobe IS the closer.

I don't really want to dog Pippen but it was hard for him to score in crunch time. Watch the 4th quarters of the 94 ECSF vs the Knicks. Marv Albert mentions how it was hard for him to score in the fourth quarters and the Knicks made fun of him. In 93, Game 6 vs Phoenix...Jordan scored 9 of the 12 points in the 4th quarter and it was mentioned how scared the rest of the Bulls were playing. I could go on...

Pippen was a great, great player but he needed that guy to finish off games. It doesn't diminish his importance to the team but my point was that he's a different player than Kobe Bryant is. Kobe is a closer. He is that guy. He did his job and won 3 titles with Shaq but he wanted more... Pippen would not have wanted more. Because he was unselfish, but also because it didn't fit his game to be that guy.

[hitmanyr2k]

Kobe has the mentality of wanting to be the man and his game fit that mentality. Putting the ball through the basket, being a closer... however good he is at it is irrelevant.

Pippen's game was of being a set up guy. He set the table, made sure everyone at the table ate and did the little things to keep the team successful. Closer, he was not. In the last 5 mins of the game, the Bulls didn't look to Pippen. It's different in the last 5 mins of the game. That's when Pippen needed a closer, but Kobe IS the closer.

I don't really want to dog Pippen but it was hard for him to score in crunch time. Watch the 4th quarters of the 94 ECSF vs the Knicks. Marv Albert mentions how it was hard for him to score in the fourth quarters and the Knicks made fun of him. In 93, Game 6 vs Phoenix...Jordan scored 9 of the 12 points in the 4th quarter and it was mentioned how scared the rest of the Bulls were playing. I could go on...

Pippen was a great, great player but he needed that guy to finish off games. It doesn't diminish his importance to the team but my point was that he's a different player than Kobe Bryant is. Kobe is a closer. He is that guy. He did his job and won 3 titles with Shaq but he wanted more... Pippen would not have wanted more. Because he was unselfish, but also because it didn't fit his game to be that guy.

I beg to differ. Jordan's highlights are played over and over again because he was the face of the league. Pippen has come up huge on both ends in many playoff games as well but the league was never on his jock like they were MJ's so his great plays/games will always be buried.

Jordan scores 1 point in the 4th qtr in this playoff game but you'll never hear about it. Pippen hit three straight 3's to get them back in the game in the first place, plays great defense on in the final minute when the Hawks were trying to take the lead and then hit the dagger 3 in the end over Mutombo. Huge game because the Bulls actually lost Game 2 of this series and could have easily been down 0-2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyufleA6UlA#t=8m35s

The game before the one above against the Wizards in Game 3 Pippen hit a huge 3 to cut the lead and on the final play Jordan lost the ball going up for the shot. Pippen gets the ball and takes it in for the game winning dunk smacking his back hard on the floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Df_BHT0AP8#t=8m38s

Also, the countless big shots he hit against the Knicks in the ECF in '93. Marv Albert and Mike Fratello talk about it after Pippen hits dagger three to end the Knicks hopes of a Game 7.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM#t=4m56s


Also leading the Bulls back from the 15 point deficit against the Blazers in the '92 Finals in Game 6 and hitting big shots down the stretch of that game, The big shots down the stretch against the Pacers in Game 7 of the '98 ECF, etc. You'll never see stuff like this because the NBA was never on the Pippen bandwagon. Never has been, never will. Pippen knew his role on the team and that was to let Mike have the show. But if Mike didn't have it going that night he would step in like a great #2 should. When Jordan retired abruptly and left Pippen hanging with a bunch of roleplayers Pippen didn't have that luxury.

[guy]

Hmm... when you show me Kobe shutting down Karl Malone in the finals and averaging 7 dimes/7.7 boards, 2 steals, a block and over 50% shooting.

Ummm, when did Pippen do that? Rodman guarded Malone in those finals.

Why do people always say Pippen sacrificed his stats playing next to Jordan? In his two seasons in his prime without Jordan he averaged 21-22 ppg. He had seasons WITH Jordan where he averaged 20-21 ppg. How did he sacrifice his stats? Why people automatically assume that if one player is playing next to a great player, he must be sacrificing stats? Maybe he's just playing to his capabilities.

And Pippen > Kidd. However, as much as I dislike Kobe, there's no way Pippen is better then him. Its claims like that has made Pippen one of the most overrated players on this board.

[robertshaw_1]

pippen is top 15

[Roundball_Rock]

Watch the 4th quarters of the 94 ECSF vs the Knicks. Marv Albert mentions how it was hard for him to score in the fourth quarters and the Knicks made fun of him.

Yeah--in the intro to Game 3 or Game 4. That is an unfair comparison. Pippen was playing with offensive scrubs. It was like AI in 01'. The defense focused completely on him. Kobe always has had a Shaq, Rice, Gasol, Odom, Bynum, or Artest around him.


In 93, Game 6 vs Phoenix...Jordan scored 9 of the 12 points in the 4th quarter and it was mentioned how scared the rest of the Bulls were playing.

What about Game 6 the year before against Portland? Pippen carried four bench players to erasing a 15 point lead in the fourth quarter. Game 6 vs. Phoenix. Why didn't you mention it was Pippen's penetration which set up the game (and championship) winning 3? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkG1b9NZ6mc&feature=related Game 6 vs. Phoenix. Why didn't you mention the previous round, when the Bulls were at greater risk of losing?


It was not surprising that Jordan was able to pick up Pippen, of course; such acts are part of Superman's daily agenda. But it was intriguing to see Pippen step into the temporary vacuums left by the sometimes physically exhausted and mentally overburdened Jordan (page 13). For the first time in Chicago's three successive marches into the NBA Finals, in fact, a Bull other than Jordan would have deserved to be named MVP in a playoff series, were such an honor awarded for a series other than the Finals.



The spotlight will inevitably be trained on Jordan and his superstar counterpart, Charles Barkley of the Phoenix Suns, in the 1993 NBA Finals, which began in Phoenix on Wednesday. But if Jordan's shaky shooting continues—a career 52% shooter, he made only 40% of his shots against the Knicks—Pippen's number will be called, again and again.

During the decisive Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals, for example, it was not Jordan who made the big second-half shots but Pippen, he of the supposedly crumbling-cookie composure. When the Knicks, having almost eliminated a seven-point deficit, threatened to steal the game late in the fourth period, two Pippen jumpers with the shot clock almost at zero bailed out the Bulls. The first came from the deep right corner just after Pippen had flashed a smirk at Knick superfan Spike Lee, sitting at courtside. The second, a three-pointer from beyond the top of the key, was followed by Pippen's raising his index finger and glancing at Starks with another Were you there? expression on his face. Boy, the Knicks must've felt like killing Pippen.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1138680/index.htm

Don't forget Pippen coming up huge with the dynasty on the line in Game 3 vs. the Knicks in the 93' ECF. The Bulls were down 0-2 and Jordan shot 17% in that game. Pippen came up big with 29 points on 83% shooting. Who can forget Pippen's clutch plays on Charles Smith in Game 5 to prevent the Knicks from taking a 3-2 lead (which he repeated on Christmas in 94' on Smith and Hubert Davis)?

How about 1997?


June 09, 1997
Extending Himself
Not even You Know Who has been more valuable than Scottie Pippen in the Bulls' postseason run
Marty Burns

For the better part of 10 years in Chicago, picking up four NBA championship rings and two Olympic gold medals along the way, Pippen has played the role of Jordan's sidekick. And though Jordan's basket knocked another outstanding effort by Pippen out of the headlines, Pippen's performance on Sunday certified that he—as much as Jordan—has been the Bulls' MVP throughout the postseason.

Despite playing with a sore left foot that had him grimacing at times and despite being distracted by trade rumors that last week had him going to the Philadelphia 76ers, Pippen had 27 points, nine rebounds, four blocked shots and three steals against Utah. The soft tissue injury to his left foot, which he aggravated in the Eastern Conference-championship-clinching win over the Miami Heat on May 28, forced him to miss three days of practice last week, but he nevertheless played 43 minutes in Game 1, two more minutes than Jordan played and 10 more than any other Chicago player.

In many ways Pippen has been the Bulls' most consistent performer this postseason, averaging 18.8 points, 6.1 rebounds and 3.9 assists through Sunday while causing havoc on the defensive end. It was Pippen who made the dunk that beat the Washington Bullets in Game 3 of their first-round series, and it was Pippen who shut down Heat forward Jamal Mashburn in the Bulls' five-game series victory. "He has been unbelievable," says Chicago guard Steve Kerr. "He's hit some big shots. He makes things easier on Michael."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1010198/index.htm

That game winning dunk? Pippen did it on a bad back. He could have taken a jumper or lay up but he wanted to ensure victory and risked his health to do it.

Pippen was huge in Game 1 against Utah. If he doesn't put up a monster performance on one good foot--and no one knew if he could play until the game began--the Jazz take a 1-0 lead. How about Pippen making the clutch steal to secure the championship against Utah?

How about the first championship? Pippen had something like 26 points in the second half to vanquish the Lakers in 91'.

I could go on but the point is made. Pippen was not Reggie Miller in the clutch but he wasn't Chris Webber either. You don't win 6 rings without stepping up when it counts more often that not. 21/9/8. 21/9/7. 21/8/8. Flirting with triple double averages! These are the NBA finals lines of a choker?


I beg to differ. Jordan's highlights are played over and over again because he was the face of the league. Pippen has come up huge on both ends in many playoff games as well but the league was never on his jock like they were MJ's so his great plays/games will always be buried.

Great point. I will say MJ was not only the face of the league. He was Nike's marketing campaign. The pumped so much $$$$ into him that they went from a blip on the radar screen to a dominant sneaker company. Jordan is still the face of Nike and Hanes. He also was backed by Coke, McDonald's, Hollywood, sold hot dogs, batteries, etc. Jordan had the biggest marketing campaign in the history of North American sports, perhaps even the world (Pele? Beckham? I know Schumacher in F1 didn't have the $$$$ behind him that MJ had and Schumacher is the GOAT in F1) behind him.



Jordan scores 1 point in the 4th qtr in this playoff game but you'll never hear about it. Pippen hit three straight 3's to get them back in the game in the first place, plays great defense on in the final minute when the Hawks were trying to take the lead and then hit the dagger 3 in the end over Mutombo. Huge game because the Bulls actually lost Game 2 of this series and could have easily been down 0-2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyufleA6UlA#t=8m35s

The game before the one above against the Wizards in Game 3 Pippen hit a huge 3 to cut the lead and on the final play Jordan lost the ball going up for the shot. Pippen gets the ball and takes it in for the game winning dunk smacking his back hard on the floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Df_BHT0AP8#t=8m38s

Also, the countless big shots he hit against the Knicks in the ECF in '93. Marv Albert and Mike Fratello talk about it after Pippen hits dagger three to end the Knicks hopes of a Game 7.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM#t=4m56s


Also leading the Bulls back from the 15 point deficit against the Blazers in the '92 Finals in Game 6 and hitting big shots down the stretch of that game, The big shots down the stretch against the Pacers in Game 7 of the '98 ECF, etc. You'll never see stuff like this because the NBA was never on the Pippen bandwagon. Never has been, never will. Pippen knew his role on the team and that was to let Mike have the show. But if Mike didn't have it going that night he would step in like a great #2 should. When Jordan retired abruptly and left Pippen hanging with a bunch of roleplayers Pippen didn't have that luxury.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: All of this is on offense. Then there is the clutch defensive plays Pippen had. This is a guy who carried scrubs to the #2 defense in the league in 95'!


Why do people always say Pippen sacrificed his stats playing next to Jordan? In his two seasons in his prime without Jordan he averaged 21-22 ppg.

He did sacrifice stats. This is why he has been called a rare unselfish superstar by Jackson and his teammates ("the perfect teammate" according to Bill Wennington). It wasn't due to Jordan, though, but playing the point forward role.


Pippen did what Jordan couldn't, or wouldn't. Pippen usually guarded the toughest offensive player, enabling Jordan to freelance in the lanes for steals and the fast break that broke most teams. While most regard those champion Bulls for Jordan, it was their aggressive defense that produced its offense and created the fear.

When the Bulls won their first championship in 1991, it was Pippen guarding Magic Johnson and creating so much havoc for the Lakers. It was Pippen who directed the triangle offense, enabling Jordan to get in position on the wing to attack the defense. It was Pippen who was the good teammate. Steve Kerr used to say how Pippen not only would get you the good shot, Pippen knew when you were slumping or hadn't had a shot in a while and he'd work the offense to get you a good shot to get going. It was Pippen who was the more favored teammate.

One definition of greatness is making other players better, and Pippen did that.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1895719

But since Pippen was sacrificing personal glory to give the Steve Kerrs of the world a good shot people today hold it against him because he did not score 30 ppg chucking the ball instead of helping his teammates--and yes, making them better! This is why he has 6 rings while some others who scored a ton have none...

What effect Jordan had is on the recognition Pippen received. We saw some of it in this thread. Pippen's detractors all pointed to 94' as his best season with the implication being he was only a top 5-7 level player for that one year. Why? 95' Pippen and 96' Pippen were as good as 94' Pippen. 96' Pippen was better offensively (before he got hurt) when you factor in pace and Jordan's presence and him being a better shooter, although 94' Pippen was better defensively. So what changed? Jordan's shadow. This is what we mean when say he sacrificed to win. He could have pulled a Kobe/Shaq with Jordan or demanded a trade so he could win as "the man" but opted to win 6 rings with Jordan, even though many people don't give him credit for that (in retrospect: go for the trade to Seattle for Kemp. Play in Seattle with Payton, Schrempf, Hawkins, and Perkins in your prime starting in 95'...). He did what we demand superstars do. Give up the ball to make his teammates better. Care about winning, not personal stats. Care about winning, not winning MVP's or getting on the cover of magazines. Yet now he is criticized for it? What hypocrisy.

This reminds me of what Charles Barkley once said about NASCAR legend Jeff Gordon when JG was in his prime. Gordon was hated by many fans because he won so much. Barkley noted that here was a guy who didn't some, didn't drink, was a family man (he was perceived as such at the time--NASCAR's Tiger :oldlol: ) and was a perfect role model. He was what we say we want sports superstars to be. Yet he was hated? Some cannot be pleased. We are in many ways our own worst enemy.

[NBASTATMAN]

[QUOTE=robertshaw_1]pippen is top 15

[Da_Realist]

Pippen was not a closer. I didn't say he wasn't great, but he was not a closer. He didn't have the type of game to take over in the last 5 minutes of a game on a consistent basis. You are showing me clips of great basketball over a quarter or a half or a game. I'm talking about tie game, 30 seconds left... Pippen is not the same type of player as Kobe in that regard. Doesn't mean he hasn't hit some big shots over the course of his career.

That's like me pointing out some of Kobe's triple doubles as proof that he was the same type of player Pippen was. He wasn't.

And because they were different type of players, there are different concerns when you ask each of them to sacrifice for the team. Pippen's game was textbook in that regard. Kobe's more of a scorer/closer. No matter what, players need to sacrifice for the team...but Kobe's giving up more than Pippen did to do it. Pippen could not score and still dominate a game. Kobe's a scorer. If ask him to sacrifice shots, he's sacrificing the best facet of his game. Not so with Pippen. That's why I said it was a bigger sacrifice for Kobe than it was for Pippen.

[Roundball_Rock]

I agree. That is why I said he wasn't Reggie Miller. The reason I, and hitmary, wanted to post that is most people here never saw Pippen play (median age here: 21) and are susceptible to what is peddled about him. Your post made it sound as if he was a Chris Webber type. We wanted to correct that.

Too much is made of "closers" anyway, both in basketball and baseball (give me a 5-1 lead with one inning :oldlol: ). First of all people only look at the offensive side of the equation. If your team is down 3 with 30 seconds left and your team is there any SF in NBA history you would rather have on the court to get a stop? Moreover, the game is won over 48 minutes. Does Horry>Rodman because Horry made a ton of big shots in his career at the end of games and Rodman didn't? The third problem I have is a lot of it is based on hype. People remember when "closers" succeed in basketball but never remember all the times they failed. You mentioned Kobe. His conversion rate is abysmal in that situation. There was a thread on that a few days ago. I think his accuracy rate is 25%. He has made a ton of game winners because he has taken so many and we remember the ones he made but not the three out of four he misses.

I just saw your edit. You make a valid argument. The key difference, though, is Kobe should have won 6-7 rings with Shaq but eventually destroyed the team because he refused to sacrifice (why was he taking so many shots in the 04' finals when he was shooting so poorly??? Did you ever see Pippen jack up 25-30 shots on a poor shooting night?). Pippen got all he could with Jordan. It would have been interesting to see Scottie traded to LA (where he wanted to go because he has always said he would have loved playing with a dominant big like Shaq and Jackson was there), not Houston, in 99'.

[Da_Realist]

I agree. That is why I said he wasn't Reggie Miller. The reason I, and hitmary, wanted to post that is most people here never saw Pippen play and are susceptible to what is peddled about him. Your post made it sound as if he was a Chris Webber type. We wanted to correct that.

Too much is made of "closers" anyway, both in basketball and baseball (give me a 5-1 lead with one inning :oldlol: ). First of all people only look at the offensive side of the equation. If your team is down 3 with 30 seconds left and your team is there any SF in NBA history you would rather have on the court to get a stop? Moreover, the game is won over 48 minutes. Does Horry>Rodman because Horry made a ton of big shots in his career at the end of games and Rodman didn't? The third problem I have is a lot of it is based on hype. People remember when "closers" succeed in basketball but never remember all the times they failed. You mentioned Kobe. His conversion rate is abysmal in that situation. There was a thread on that a few days ago. I think his accuracy rate is 25%. He has made a ton of game winners because he has taken so many and we remember the ones he made but not the three out of four he misses.

Yeah, I mentioned before that I would still take Pippen over Kobe. I was only trying to highlight that they were different types of players.

[indiefan23]

Kobe has the mentality of wanting to be the man and his game fit that mentality. Putting the ball through the basket, being a closer... however good he is at it is irrelevant.

Pippen's game was of being a set up guy. He set the table, made sure everyone at the table ate and did the little things to keep the team successful. Closer, he was not. In the last 5 mins of the game, the Bulls didn't look to Pippen. It's different in the last 5 mins of the game. That's when Pippen needed a closer, but Kobe IS the closer.

I think that's a lot of conjecture. During Jordan's first retirement Pippen was the man, played like a legit superstar and only lost 6 more games or so. There is really no reason to think he could not do that on a regular basis, but when you've got the best scorer in history on your team it's obviously better for your team if you let him score. Pippen hit enormous amounts of big huge shots in his day. You're acting like he could not or did not do it. He did. All the time. Kobe had the mentality to be 'the man' and ended up spending his absolute prime in abject mediocrity while Pippen spent his prime on the best basketball teams of all time. As if Pippen's ridonkulus D didn't close out games. I appreciate the effort, but I think you are reaching. Jordan was better then everyone, ever, but that does not mean you're not closing out games.


I don't really want to dog Pippen but it was hard for him to score in crunch time. Watch the 4th quarters of the 94 ECSF vs the Knicks. Marv Albert mentions how it was hard for him to score in the fourth quarters and the Knicks made fun of him. In 93, Game 6 vs Phoenix...Jordan scored 9 of the 12 points in the 4th quarter and it was mentioned how scared the rest of the Bulls were playing. I could go on...

I don't think you could go on. I mean, you're going to announcer comments you recall? I recall Scotti Pippen and MJ both scoring 40 points in a game at the same time. I also recall Scotti Pippen's D crushing Kevin Johnson so badly he only got 1 or 2 dimes for a whole game and shooting some wack number like 20%. But that's playing scared? Or does only offense count?

Or Pippen, playing as the only star on a team that he's carried to the conference finals (and game 7) is having trouble scoring on one of the best defenses in history that is totally focused on stopping him cuz he's the only one capable of beating them. How is that different then Jordan himself losing to the Pistons when his team didn't have enough to compete but he was good enough to get them past the non-elites? Really, what Pippen needed was another Pippen. He had BJ Armstrong, oh, and that guy from the CBA.

Jordan, was absolutely a better closer then Scotti Pippen, I will give you that. But Kobe is not Jordan and does not even really resemble Jordan. Kobe does not have the mentality cuz frankly, Kobe lacks heart. If Kobe is shooting his team out of the finals or has a personal beef with a player he doesn't have the heart to find another way to win. Great fantastic closers are not the reasons their teams lose finals. He'll keep shooting even though he's been figured out. Pippen and Jordan would find ways to win, not just score. Kobe lacks Pippen's mentality, and not vice versa. Honestly, how do you say this stuff about Kobe when he shot 17% in a finals with Shaq on his team shooting over 60%, and they lost that finals 4-1, and really, it should have been 4-0, to an inferior team. Why do people value selfishness when it hurts your team?


Pippen was a great, great player but he needed that guy to finish off games. It doesn't diminish his importance to the team but my point was that he's a different player than Kobe Bryant is. Kobe is a closer. He is that guy. He did his job and won 3 titles with Shaq but he wanted more... Pippen would not have wanted more. Because he was unselfish, but also because it didn't fit his game to be that guy.

Kobe's not really that guy either though. He's recently been more like that guy, but he's also been on a team so stacked they can probably win if he plays poorly anyway. Kobe's selfishness prevented his teams from winning on many occasions, and my point is that does diminish his importance to the team. When you look at his career, there are a few times I can remember him closing out games, but he's never been consistent at this and all the times they were swept out of the playoffs is a strong indicator.

Again, I don't see how you see him as this closer. He can hit plenty of tough, crazy flashy shots but why take so many low percentage shots in the first place? He's been in 6 finals. 3 of them playing a role for another player who was much better then he was, 2 where he played horribly and gave up on his team, and 1 where he beat a team that was more or less happy to be there and not ready for the big stage. I dunno, I just don't see it, or why guys hitting crazy two on one fade away three pointers are seen as good plays at all. They're not.

[Da_Realist]

I think that's a lot of conjecture. During Jordan's first retirement Pippen was the man, played like a legit superstar and only lost 6 more games or so. There is really no reason to think he could not do that on a regular basis, but when you've got the best scorer in history on your team it's obviously better for your team if you let him score. Pippen hit enormous amounts of big huge shots in his day. You're acting like he could not or did not do it. He did. All the time. Kobe had the mentality to be 'the man' and ended up spending his absolute prime in abject mediocrity while Pippen spent his prime on the best basketball teams of all time. As if Pippen's ridonkulus D didn't close out games. I appreciate the effort, but I think you are reaching. Jordan was better then everyone, ever, but that does not mean you're not closing out games.



I don't think you could go on. I mean, you're going to announcer comments you recall? I recall Scotti Pippen and MJ both scoring 40 points in a game at the same time. I also recall Scotti Pippen's D crushing Kevin Johnson so badly he only got 1 or 2 dimes for a whole game and shooting some wack number like 20%. But that's playing scared? Or does only offense count?

Or Pippen, playing as the only star on a team that he's carried to the conference finals (and game 7) is having trouble scoring on one of the best defenses in history that is totally focused on stopping him cuz he's the only one capable of beating them. How is that different then Jordan himself losing to the Pistons when his team didn't have enough to compete but he was good enough to get them past the non-elites? Really, what Pippen needed was another Pippen. He had BJ Armstrong, oh, and that guy from the CBA.

Jordan, was absolutely a better closer then Scotti Pippen, I will give you that. But Kobe is not Jordan and does not even really resemble Jordan. Kobe does not have the mentality cuz frankly, Kobe lacks heart. If Kobe is shooting his team out of the finals or has a personal beef with a player he doesn't have the heart to find another way to win. Great fantastic closers are not the reasons their teams lose finals. He'll keep shooting even though he's been figured out. Pippen and Jordan would find ways to win, not just score. Kobe lacks Pippen's mentality, and not vice versa. Honestly, how do you say this stuff about Kobe when he shot 17% in a finals with Shaq on his team shooting over 60%, and they lost that finals 4-1, and really, it should have been 4-0, to an inferior team. Why do people value selfishness when it hurts your team?



Kobe's not really that guy either though. He's recently been more like that guy, but he's also been on a team so stacked they can probably win if he plays poorly anyway. Kobe's selfishness prevented his teams from winning on many occasions, and my point is that does diminish his importance to the team. When you look at his career, there are a few times I can remember him closing out games, but he's never been consistent at this and all the times they were swept out of the playoffs is a strong indicator.

Again, I don't see how you see him as this closer. He can hit plenty of tough, crazy flashy shots but why take so many low percentage shots in the first place? He's been in 6 finals. 3 of them playing a role for another player who was much better then he was, 2 where he played horribly and gave up on his team, and 1 where he beat a team that was more or less happy to be there and not ready for the big stage. I dunno, I just don't see it, or why guys hitting crazy two on one fade away three pointers are seen as good plays at all. They're not.

O...K. So you can't see that Pippen and Kobe are two different types of players?

[indiefan23]

I agree. That is why I said he wasn't Reggie Miller. The reason I, and hitmary, wanted to post that is most people here never saw Pippen play (median age here: 21) and are susceptible to what is peddled about him. Your post made it sound as if he was a Chris Webber type. We wanted to correct that.

Wow, are you serious? ;0

21? Holy crap. I guess it makes sense with the way people act, but no wonder so many people here think such dumb things. Not that 21 year olds are dumb, but the NBA has just gone through drastic changes in the last 10 years... someone told me that John Stockton would not have been able to average 8 assists per game without Karl Malone a while ago. ha. ;0 It's an odd thing though, cuz the best ball was played in the 90's, then there was a weakening. Compared to the early 70's 90's ball was far superior and it was obvious the best in history were all playing right now. Today though, it's not like that cuz the early 90's were a peak. Which makes me think of two things.

1. When we were saying Jordan was the best ever, were older dudes scoffing at us too, or agreeing? I think the Jordan issue was pretty much a consensus as was talent just being the best then.

2. Do the kiddies today feel the same way we did then or do they accept the 90's ridonkulus talent pool?

I think it's started to swing back as an FYI. I'm not really sure where talent is all at, but I'm pretty sure it's much, much better then the talent right around 99/00 'n all that.

[indiefan23]

O...K. So you can't see that Pippen and Kobe are two different types of players?

Well, yea, of course they're different, but I kind of see the difference as focused on individual/scoring and Pippen just focused on winning. I really don't understand why you seem to be saying that being selfish mean's Kobe is more valuable or brings something to his game Pippen didn't have. I totally do not view Pippen as a setup man. That was not who he was at all. Pippen was just anything your team needed him to be to get the win and that did include closing out plenty of games.

[indiefan23]

I beg to differ. Jordan's highlights are played over and over again because he was the face of the league. Pippen has come up huge on both ends in many playoff games as well but the league was never on his jock like they were MJ's so his great plays/games will always be buried.

Jordan scores 1 point in the 4th qtr in this playoff game but you'll never hear about it. Pippen hit three straight 3's to get them back in the game in the first place, plays great defense on in the final minute when the Hawks were trying to take the lead and then hit the dagger 3 in the end over Mutombo. Huge game because the Bulls actually lost Game 2 of this series and could have easily been down 0-2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyufleA6UlA#t=8m35s

The game before the one above against the Wizards in Game 3 Pippen hit a huge 3 to cut the lead and on the final play Jordan lost the ball going up for the shot. Pippen gets the ball and takes it in for the game winning dunk smacking his back hard on the floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Df_BHT0AP8#t=8m38s

Also, the countless big shots he hit against the Knicks in the ECF in '93. Marv Albert and Mike Fratello talk about it after Pippen hits dagger three to end the Knicks hopes of a Game 7.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Llgnf6gY_gM#t=4m56s


Also leading the Bulls back from the 15 point deficit against the Blazers in the '92 Finals in Game 6 and hitting big shots down the stretch of that game, The big shots down the stretch against the Pacers in Game 7 of the '98 ECF, etc. You'll never see stuff like this because the NBA was never on the Pippen bandwagon. Never has been, never will. Pippen knew his role on the team and that was to let Mike have the show. But if Mike didn't have it going that night he would step in like a great #2 should. When Jordan retired abruptly and left Pippen hanging with a bunch of roleplayers Pippen didn't have that luxury.

Yep, exactly. Pippen would do what was needed to win. Each of them as franchise players on their own team probably win titles, but they aren't the best team of all time and they don't dominate an entire decade. Pippen was widely considered the second best player in the league for many years.

[indiefan23]

pippen was great in the 98 finals

I really, really do think he got robbed of MVP, but I understood it. It was Jordan, he hit the shot, the NBA is a business so why eff up the NBA Story Book. But Pippen outplayed Jordan that year. I don't even think it was close.

[Da_Realist]

Well, yea, of course they're different, but I kind of see the difference as focused on individual/scoring and Pippen just focused on winning. I really don't understand why you seem to be saying that being selfish mean's Kobe is more valuable or brings something to his game Pippen didn't have. I totally do not view Pippen as a setup man. That was not who he was at all. Pippen was just anything your team needed him to be to get the win and that did include closing out plenty of games.

Ok. Pippen was a better all-around player, but he's not the end-game closer that Kobe...

Never mind. My main point is that asking Kobe to be a complimentary player is different than asking Scottie to do the same thing. That was Pippen's game. Kobe's a scorer and he had to sacrifice more of his game to be a distributor because that's not his strength. His strength is putting the ball in the hole. Scottie flourished in that role, Kobe felt held back.

If we both work for a company in some fashion and there is a need to fill a software developer role due to some turnover. The company asks each of us to help out. You have a computer science background while I have a degree in literature. The company would expect us both to be team players and fill that void, but wouldn't it be a bigger sacrifice for me to do it because of my limited background even though we are being asked to do the same thing?

[indiefan23]

Pippen was not a closer. I didn't say he wasn't great, but he was not a closer. He didn't have the type of game to take over in the last 5 minutes of a game on a consistent basis. You are showing me clips of great basketball over a quarter or a half or a game. I'm talking about tie game, 30 seconds left... Pippen is not the same type of player as Kobe in that regard. Doesn't mean he hasn't hit some big shots over the course of his career.

Why didn't he? I don't get it. He had Jordan on his team so he didn't consistently take last second shots. That only makes sense but to say that because someone else was better that mean's he was not good at it is a logical fallacy. Why would you say that? The only reason is because Jordan took those shots and that made sense for the bulls to win. It had no bearing on Scotti's game. Pippen is even more important then Kobe in the last 30 seconds because he can take over the game in so many different ways.

In reality, Kobe is just not this player you are thinking of. He's pretty average in crunch time except for his attempts. Have you actually looked at his clutch stats? His FG% is about the same as Mike Mller and Michael Beasley. His 3 point % is the same as Beno Udrih. His boards are less then Matt Barnes. His dimes are the same as Rafer Alston.

His steals are less then Ryan Gomes. And if there's any indicator that he just stops playing D, his blocks are as bad as anyone in the league cuz over a whole season, he averaged 0 clutch blocks.

He does however take far and away more attempts then anyone in the league. Per 36 minutes, almost 40 shots a game. We don't have Pippen's clutch stats but I can assure you if we did, they would own the black poo out of Kobe's.

[Roundball_Rock]

Wow, are you serious? ;0

21? Holy crap.

Yeah. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3790169#post3790169

Responses: 50

Age breakdown

10-14: 1 (2%)
15-19: 18 (36%)
20-25: 21 (42%)
26-30: 5 (10%)
31-40: 3 (6%)
41-49: 2 (4%)
50: 0

Average: 22.5

*The average is skewed higher than the median because obviously the higher ages differ more from the median than the lowest ages. The youngest posters were 14 in one case and 16 in two. The oldest posters were 47 and 41. Take the two oldest and the two youngest out and the average is down to 21.9.

Since I summarized the tally after 50 responses seven more people have responded. Their average is 22.7, but that includes a 32 year old who skews the average higher. Without him the average is 21.2 of those seven. I'll update it again after there are few more responses or the thread dies.

I have a poli sci background so I have an interest in demographics. I will probably do a thread for a geographic breakdown of ISH down the road.


Yeah, I mentioned before that I would still take Pippen over Kobe. I was only trying to highlight that they were different types of players.

I know. I just wanted to clarify Pippen's record after 1) I saw the results of the age survey (much younger than I thought) 2) I read someone here saying "From what I understand Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991". The person quoted bought the myths peddled by duncan21mvp/pierce2008mvp/tmacsrockets. Yeah, he technically wasn't an all-star but he was the year before and the year after (and the year after and the year after and...). His numbers were better in 91' than in 90', he dropped 22/9/6 in the playoffs and 21/9/7 in the NBA finals and after it he was highly coveted by the selection committee for the Dream Team. Bill Simmons claims the first five people selected were Jordan, Magic, Bird, D. Robinson, and Pippen in that order. I don't know if that is exactly right. I read a New York Times article from the period which said Pippen was the fourth choice. Either way the point remains: at the time he was considered that good. Bird was there out of respect for what he did and maybe Magic (was he retired when the team was selected?). In reality Pippen was the 2nd-4th real choice, depending on if Magic was retired and if Simmons or the NYT is correct (the NYT is one of the newspapers historians rely on when trying to determine how things were at a given time so I am going with them over Simmons). Yet you have some people here, especially one troll with at least three accounts, peddling the myth that he was a run-of-the-mill good player in 91'. (What happened on the Dream Team? According to Chuck Daly, the coach, the best player on the team was Jordan. No surprise there. Who was second, though? A tie between Pippen and Barkley. Keep in mind this was 92' Pippen, not peak Pip and the Dream Team was comprised of the best players in the NBA, with the exception of Hakeem who was not a US citizen at the time.)

Due to the mythology surrounding MJ you have people making ludicrous statements such as this (in the comments section of the video hitmary posted):


yaiqab (9 months ago)
Pippen played a more consistent series than Michael. Jordan is the MVP of every series and every game that they played. I don't think Pipper ever saw a double team in all the time he was with Michael. He ran the floor like a gazelle and nobody stopped the ball because every team was scared that he would pass off to Michael. Everything revolved around Jordan.


:wtf:


I really, really do think he got robbed of MVP, but I understood it. It was Jordan, he hit the shot, the NBA is a business so why eff up the NBA Story Book. But Pippen outplayed Jordan that year. I don't even think it was close.

His defense was amazing, not only in the finals but in the ECF. Jordan had a case too, though. Pippen hurt his back taking seven charges from Malone alone in Game 3 or 4 and this got worse and caused him to be ineffective shooting the ball in later games. Before that he was the front-runner for the MVP because of his defense along with very good offensive production. I would give it to MJ because he had to carry the team offensively with Pip rendered ineffective but 97' is the year Pippen should have won it imo. Jordan got the flu and played great and that was too good a story, though.

It amazes me that people scream "final's MVP's! final's MVP's!" and hold it against Pippen. 21/9/8. 21/9/7. 21/8/8. 20/8/4 and wreaking havoc on defense for the Jazz--with only one good foot. 98' was mentioned. This is a poor final's record? His final's record>>>that of some who won FMVP's. He played great in five of six finals (96' being the exception). Of course, Jordan played off the charts in all of his finals so that hurt Pippen's FMVP chances but that shouldn't be held against him. The fact that he was even in the conversation in the same series with Jordan in 97' and 98' is a testament to how great he performed in the finals. How many players could have played with Jordan putting up 32/7/6 and have a shot at FMVP?

[indiefan23]

Ok. Pippen was a better all-around player, but he's not the end-game closer that Kobe...

Never mind. My main point is that asking Kobe to be a complimentary player is different than asking Scottie to do the same thing. That was Pippen's game. Kobe's a scorer and he had to sacrifice more of his game to be a distributor because that's not his strength. His strength is putting the ball in the hole. Scottie flourished in that role, Kobe felt held back.

If we both work for a company in some fashion and there is a need to fill a software developer role due to some turnover. The company asks each of us to help out. You have a computer science background while I have a degree in literature. The company would expect us both to be team players and fill that void, but wouldn't it be a bigger sacrifice for me to do it because of my limited background even though we are being asked to do the same thing?

Hmm... do you think Kobe lacks the talent or ability to sport a strong all around game? I don't. I think they're both talent wise well suited. I don't think it had anything to do with Kobe's predisposition for the job and everything to do with his perceived perception of himself. Kobe had 3 rings in that role and evidently was doing a pretty okay job filling in the gaps so I don't really get your analogy.

I think Scotti could have been a top 10 player all time but we're having this conversation now because he choose winning with MJ. How is that supposed to be less then whatever sacrifice was asked of Kobe? I don't even know how you measure that.

The point I'm making is that your view of his game is colored by that sacrifice rather then what he was capable of. He came within a few shots of the finals with BJ Armstrong as his second leading scorer. I don't think Kobe is capable of doing that, at all, so I don't understand how you think Kobe had to give up more by not being the man when his ceiling was lower as a franchise guy to begin with. Claiming he couldn't close makes no sense because being on Jordan's team that's obviously the part he sacrificed the most, even though he did close games out regularly.

[hitmanyr2k]

His defense was amazing, not only in the finals but in the ECF. Jordan had a case too, though. Pippen hurt his back taking seven charges from Malone alone in Game 3 or 4 and this got worse and caused him to be ineffective shooting the ball in later games. Before that he was the front-runner for the MVP because of his defense along with very good offensive production. I would give it to MJ because he had to carry the team offensively with Pip rendered ineffective but 97' is the year Pippen should have won it imo. Jordan got the flu and played great and that was too good a story, though.

It amazes me that people scream "final's MVP's! final's MVP's!" and hold it against Pippen. 21/9/8. 21/9/7. 21/8/8. 20/8/4 and wreaking havoc on defense for the Jazz--with only one good foot. 98' was mentioned. This is a poor final's record? His final's record>>>that of some who won FMVP's. He played great in five of six finals (96' being the exception). Of course, Jordan played off the charts in all of his finals so that hurt Pippen's FMVP chances but that shouldn't be held against him. The fact that he was even in the conversation in the same series with Jordan in 97' and 98' is a testament to how great he performed in the finals. How many players could have played with Jordan putting up 32/7/6 and have a shot at FMVP?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/events/1998/playoffs/burns/burnsfinals4.html


Utah simply has not been able to come up with an answer for the 6'7" Pippen's all-around game. Just consider a few of his highlights in Game 4: he double-teamed John Stockton and forced him to give up the ball; intercepted a Karl Malone pass; forced Howard Eisley to miss a layup; found teammate Ron Harper cutting through the lane for an easy basket; got in teammate Toni Kukoc's face for not sacrificing his body on a Malone waltz through the lane. "He was sensational," said Jazz coach Jerry Sloan.

That article sums up what you were saying were saying about Pippen during the '98 Finals but I can't help but chuckle at the part in bold in retrospect of how Pippen ended up taking charges on Malone :oldlol: Toni Kukoc was like "oh hell no".

[Roundball_Rock]

Good find. :cheers: :oldlol: @ Kukoc!

Here is the final paragraph:


Pippen, indeed, has been the MVP of this year's Finals thus far. For a guy who plays with Michael Jordan, that's saying a lot. If the Bulls wrap up the series Friday night in Game 5 at the United Center, the crowd will be roaring like a 757 for Mike and Co.'s possible farewell game and Pippen will probably become the first Chicago player other than Jordan to win the Finals MVP award. What's more, he'll have earned it.

This was a guy who some considered the second or third best player in the league at his peak (even as late as 97' SI called him the second-best player in the NBA) yet you have people today comparing him to Gasol. :confusedshrug:

[guy]

He did sacrifice stats. This is why he has been called a rare unselfish superstar by Jackson and his teammates ("the perfect teammate" according to Bill Wennington). It wasn't due to Jordan, though, but playing the point forward role.


Dude I've read multiple posts from you where you said or implied that Pippen had to sacrifice stats due to Jordan. Now you're backpedalling on that and saying thats not the case?



http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_sam&id=1895719

But since Pippen was sacrificing personal glory to give the Steve Kerrs of the world a good shot people today hold it against him because he did not score 30 ppg chucking the ball instead of helping his teammates--and yes, making them better! This is why he has 6 rings while some others who scored a ton have none...

Sure thats true. But Pippen played to his capabilities that a winning environment would allow. Pippen could've probably averaged 30 ppg if he wanted to, but on disgustingly low efficiency and whatever team he did that on wouldn't have won more then 20 games. Thats the difference between Pippen "chucking" and players like Jordan, Bird, Kobe, Lebron, Wade, and even AI "chucking". Pippen just wasn't that great of a scorer, and he knew that. So with that being the case, I really don't see how that "sacrifice" from 30 to 20-22 ppg should really be considered that great.

The labels of "unselfish" and "selfish" seem to be thrown around too loosely around here. Anyone notice that every player that has been considered "selfish" happens to be a great 30+ ppg scorer (Jordan, Nique, AI, T-Mac, Kobe, etc.) while the players considered "unselfish" happens to be great point guards/forwards (Magic, Pippen, Kidd, Nash, CP3, etc). Is that just a coincidence? Those 30 ppg scorers are taking that many shots for a reason. Because thats their style of play and their great at it, and its usually the best possible way for their teams to win. When they get better teams, they usually take less shots. And thats the same thing with the point G/Fs. They distribute more because thats what their great at and its usually the best possible way for their teams to win. When the pieces around them aren't as good, they usually shoot a little more. I'm not sure if thats being selfish or unselfish. Don't get me wrong, there certainly have been displays of selfishness and unselfishness, but its really overblown IMO.

[magnax1]

Someone really needs to ban you. Payton Top 60? :oldlol:

Payton was arguably Top 5 multiple years, and I mean good argument.


As far as Pippen goes, I'd take peak Payton over peak Pippen. And I'd take both of them over peak Stockton. And that's the truth magnax. Stockton at his peak was worse than both. You're just so delusional.
:oldlol:
Every time I so much as mention Payton, this guy comes around and starts tearing down Stockton.
The only year I can think of that Payton might have been top 5 is 96, when he peaked, Robinson was Injured, and Ewing started to get worse.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan scores 1 point in the 4th qtr in this playoff game but you'll never hear about it. Pippen hit three straight 3's to get them back in the game in the first place, plays great defense on in the final minute when the Hawks were trying to take the lead and then hit the dagger 3 in the end over Mutombo. Huge game because the Bulls actually lost Game 2 of this series and could have easily been down 0-2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyufleA6UlA#t=8m35s

Wow, you managed to find a game where MJ was quiet in the 4th. Congrats. Let's forget about the fact that he averaged like 12-13 points per 4th quarter in the playoffs in 1997. :oldlol: Let's also ignore the fact that in this very game he scored 20 points in the 3rd quarter to bring Chicago back from a deficit.


The game before the one above against the Wizards in Game 3 Pippen hit a huge 3 to cut the lead and on the final play Jordan lost the ball going up for the shot. Pippen gets the ball and takes it in for the game winning dunk smacking his back hard on the floor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Df_BHT0AP8#t=8m38s

Maybe you missed it, but Jordan had like 14-16 points over the final 4 minutes of this game to bring Chicago back. Yes, Pip had a big 3 and the game-sealing dunk, but let's not act as if he was a bigger factor than Jordan was late in that game.


The big shots down the stretch against the Pacers in Game 7 of the '98 ECF, etc.

You're crazy if you're watching game 7 vs. Indy in the second half/4th quarter and see Pippen's fingerprints on the game more than Jordan's. That's all I'll say. MJ hit shots, set others up for shots, repeatedly drew fouls and got to the line, and had like 4 offensive boards in the 4th quarter alone, including the game-saving one over 3 Pacers off a (wait for it) missed Pippen FT.


It's not that Pippen didn't make big plays, it's that Jordan was just so enormously good that he was overshadowed. Anyone who acts like they were of equal or even near-equal value to that team is kidding themselves, plain and simple.

[indiefan23]

His defense was amazing, not only in the finals but in the ECF. Jordan had a case too, though. Pippen hurt his back taking seven charges from Malone alone in Game 3 or 4 and this got worse and caused him to be ineffective shooting the ball in later games. Before that he was the front-runner for the MVP because of his defense along with very good offensive production. I would give it to MJ because he had to carry the team offensively with Pip rendered ineffective but 97' is the year Pippen should have won it imo. Jordan got the flu and played great and that was too good a story, though.

Jordan won it because of who he was historically. It's very arguable that Jordan deserved it. Pippen's game 4 and those charges destroyed Karl Malone. It shook his confidence that Pippen could shut him down and that one player could disrupt his team so much that they could only manage a record low 54 points in a finals game. Why do you think Malone missed hif FTs? I think it's cuz he didn't believe he could win anymore and the reason was Pippen. Jordan deserved MVP vs the Blazers because he took Drexler, their best player, and demoralized him into a shell of himself. Pippen deserved it for doing the same to Karl Malone. Pippen's shooting/game did get affected by the injured back, but I still think it was his defense pulling the team over the top in the last two games.

I hate Karl Malone. He's a useless drop of ass pimple puss.


It amazes me that people scream "final's MVP's! final's MVP's!" and hold it against Pippen. 21/9/8. 21/9/7. 21/8/8. 20/8/4 and wreaking havoc on defense for the Jazz--with only one good foot. 98' was mentioned. This is a poor final's record? His final's record>>>that of some who won FMVP's. He played great in five of six finals (96' being the exception). Of course, Jordan played off the charts in all of his finals so that hurt Pippen's FMVP chances but that shouldn't be held against him. The fact that he was even in the conversation in the same series with Jordan in 97' and 98' is a testament to how great he performed in the finals. How many players could have played with Jordan putting up 32/7/6 and have a shot at FMVP?

Yea, exactly. People like to say he was some kind of role player or something. ;0 He competed with Jordan for MVP's in the playoffs and it wasn't fake competition. Pippen was actually being considered for them... it wasn't lip service.

[OldSchoolBBall]

We actually have people arguing that Pippen deserved the '97 or '98 Finals MVP over Jordan? I'm so done with this thread -- there's no arguing with that level of stupidity.

MJ averaged 33/7/6 in the '97 Finals, had two game-winning shots, the entire "flu game", and a game-winning assist, but somehow Pippen "arguably" deserved Finals MVP. Get outta here with that noise. :oldlol:


He competed with Jordan for MVP's in the playoffs and it wasn't fake competition. Pippen was actually being considered for them... it wasn't lip service.

Really? When was this? :oldlol:

[magnax1]

Good find. :cheers: :oldlol: @ Kukoc!

Here is the final paragraph:



This was a guy who some considered the second or third best player in the league at his peak (even as late as 97' SI called him the second-best player in the NBA) yet you have people today comparing him to Gasol. :confusedshrug:
Yeah, Pippen MIGHT have been the MVP after game four, but he went quiet in game 5, and was out for most of game 6. While Jordan averaged 34 points 4 rebounds 3 assists and 2 steals a game in the series. Pippen only averaged 20 points, a steal, 3.5 assists, and 7 boards in the first four games. Just off that, how could you not give it to Jordan, and you still have failed to explain how he was a top five player in the league.

[indiefan23]

:oldlol:
Every time I so much as mention Payton, this guy comes around and starts tearing down Stockton.
The only year I can think of that Payton might have been top 5 is 96, when he peaked, Robinson was Injured, and Ewing started to get worse.

I love Payton, he's under rated now, but his best season he averaged 9 dimes... Stockton's best season he averaged 14.5. It's not even close.

[magnax1]

I love Payton, he's under rated now, but his best season he averaged 9 dimes... Stockton's best season he averaged 14.5. It's not even close.
Yeah, I don't want to derail this thread, or derail it more than it already is, but it isn't close. Payton was great on D, but he was frustrating to watch on offense, especially after Kemp left. He wasn't willing to pass the ball, and took absoulutely terrible shots.

[indiefan23]

We actually have people arguing that Pippen deserved the '97 or '98 Finals MVP over Jordan? I'm so done with this thread -- there's no arguing with that level of stupidity.

MJ averaged 33/7/6 in the '97 Finals, had two game-winning shots, the entire "flu game", and a game-winning assist, but somehow Pippen "arguably" deserved Finals MVP. Get outta here with that noise. :oldlol:

Really? When was this? :oldlol:

By 98 Jordan was starting to diminish athletically. You could see it in his game. He was leaning on Pippen more then ever for support. You can list stats all you want, but there are no defensive stats. Pippen was defending both of Utah's best players Stockton and Malone and ravaged their team defensively. You can make arguments for Jordan and obviously he won it, but IMHO, Pippen outplayed him in that series more then Jordan outplayed Pippen. People would talk about Jordan 'conserving his energy on defense' when really Jordan just didn't have the same gas he used to in 98.

I LOVE Jordan... he's my favorite player ever, but I don't let things I like cloud my judgment and I think Pippen outplayed him. Had Pippen not been hurt, I don't think MJ would have had a chance at the MVP.

[indiefan23]

Yeah, I don't want to derail this thread, or derail it more than it already is, but it isn't close. Payton was great on D, but he was frustrating to watch on offense, especially after Kemp left. He wasn't willing to pass the ball, and took absoulutely terrible shots.

Heh, if you read above, there is someone arguing that being a selfish player and forcing bad shots mean's you're a better closer. :)

[OldSchoolBBall]

By 98 Jordan was starting to diminish athletically. You could see it in his game. He was leaning on Pippen more then ever for support. You can list stats all you want, but there are no defensive stats. Pippen was defending both of Utah's best players Stockton and Malone and ravaged their team defensively. You can make arguments for Jordan and obviously he won it, but IMHO, Pippen outplayed him in that series more then Jordan outplayed Pippen. People would talk about Jordan 'conserving his energy on defense' when really Jordan just didn't have the same gas he used to in 98.

I LOVE Jordan... he's my favorite player ever, but I don't let things I like cloud my judgment and I think Pippen outplayed him. Had Pippen not been hurt, I don't think MJ would have had a chance at the MVP.

Where are you getting that Pippen guarded Stockton and Malone from? He guarded neither of them save for isolated switches. :oldlol:

Pippen outplayed Jordan in the 1998 Finals. This is the most hysterical thing I've ever heard - even more so than saying that he was aguably the MVP of the '97 Finals. The level of delusional and simply NOT KNOWING ANYTHING required to believe these things is beyond comprehension.


Had Pippen not been hurt, I don't think MJ would have had a chance at the MVP.

WOW. LMAO. :oldlol:

[indiefan23]

Where are you getting that Pippen guarded Stockton and Malone from? He guarded neither of them save for isolated switches.

From watching the games. Pippen played as a floater/free safety and guarded them all. Where did you get your info from: looking at Pippen's position and deducing that he only guarded Jeff Hornacek?


Pippen outplayed Jordan in the 1998 Finals. This is the most hysterical thing I've ever heard - even more so than saying that he was aguably the MVP of the '97 Finals. The level of delusional and simply NOT KNOWING ANYTHING required to believe these things is beyond comprehension.


Yea, so hysterical that after game 4 Sports Illustrated published the same thing as did countless NBA affiliated groups, fans.

[GP_20]

:oldlol:
Every time I so much as mention Payton, this guy comes around and starts tearing down Stockton.
The only year I can think of that Payton might have been top 5 is 96, when he peaked, Robinson was Injured, and Ewing started to get worse.
You severely overrate Stockton and underrate Payton.

Yeah 1996, but also
He was arguably Top 5 in 2000, and for sure in 1998.

[OldSchoolBBall]

From watching the games. Pippen played as a floater/free safety and guarded them all. Where did you get your info from: looking at Pippen's position and deducing that he only guarded Jeff Hornacek?

Go ahead and tell me that Pippen guarded Stockton and Malone for any extended period of time and I'll POST THE FREAKING LINKS TO THE GAMES right here and people can see for themselves that he didn't. What a joke. :oldlol:



Yea, so hysterical that after game 4 Sports Illustrated published the same thing as did countless NBA affiliated groups, fans.

:oldlol:

Keep dreaming, dude. I'm sure he also deserved it in the '97 Finals, like you said. Again, just a tragic joke.

[GP_20]

I love Payton, he's under rated now, but his best season he averaged 9 dimes... Stockton's best season he averaged 14.5. It's not even close.
Yeah Stockton is clearly a better passer/playmaker, but Payton is clearly a better scorer and defender. Scoring and defense are usually regarded as more important when evaluating basketball players.

Like I said, I'll take prime Payton and Pippen over prime Stockton. Who himself never really was able to take over games. Just played his role well and not really taking over. He was always 2nd fiddle to Malone (Malone's 2 MVPs and Stockton never finishing Top 6 in MVP voting is evident that he was easily considered more valuable than Stockton in Utah)...

[che guevara]

Yea, so hysterical that after game 4 Sports Illustrated published the same thing as did countless NBA affiliated groups, fans.
After game 4? There were actually 2 more games, so it doesn't matter. Game 5, the bulls lost, with both Jordan and Pippen playing like **** (Jordan maybe slightly less so, but both were terrible). Game 6, Pippen only plays 26 minutes due to the bad back and ends with 8/3/4, while Jordan put the team on his back and dropped 45 points, including 3 clutch plays at the end to come back from down 3 (hitting a layup within 5 seconds, stealing the ball from Malone, and hitting his famous game winner). You're completely delusional if you think Pippen had any case whatsoever over Jordan. And honestly, Pippen had even less of a case in 1997.

Look what you made me do... I actually like Pippen for what he is, not what you're trying to make him out to be. The problem here is that his abilities are being ludicrously overrated.

[hitmanyr2k]

Yeah, Pippen MIGHT have been the MVP after game four, but he went quiet in game 5, and was out for most of game 6. While Jordan averaged 34 points 4 rebounds 3 assists and 2 steals a game in the series. Pippen only averaged 20 points, a steal, 3.5 assists, and 7 boards in the first four games. Just off that, how could you not give it to Jordan, and you still have failed to explain how he was a top five player in the league.

Because you're not considering defense. The game is played on BOTH ends and Pippen's defense was overshadowing everything in that series. The Jazz were actually trying to figure out ways to score after their pick-and-roll was stomping every other team in the league.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/events/1998/playoffs/news/1998/06/11/jordan_pippen/

"It's natural ability, desire and knowledge that makes Scottie such a great defensive player," teammate Michael Jordan says. "He sets the tempo defensively for us. The more active Scottie Pippen is, the better we are because we feed off of his situation. He can disrupt anybody's offense because he can play anybody from a point guard to the five (center) position."

"The luxury for us is to have a defender like Scottie who can cover more than one situation at a time, play a man and play a play," coach Phil Jackson says. "He's able to hang tight with whoever he's playing and recover and help on a defensive set so that the other team can't operate. Scottie is able to be a one-man wrecking crew."

[indiefan23]

Go ahead and tell me that Pippen guarded Stockton and Malone for any extended period of time and I'll POST THE FREAKING LINKS TO THE GAMES right here and people can see for themselves that he didn't. What a joke. :oldlol:

Keep dreaming, dude. I'm sure he also deserved it in the '97 Finals, like you said. Again, just a tragic joke.

Hmm... I didn't say that... I'm not sure why we should trust what you remember from 11 years ago when you can keep what happened 11 minutes ago straight. What a joke! lol

[indiefan23]

After game 4? There were actually 2 more games, so it doesn't matter.

And 2 less games that Jordan was better in, and 3 less wins.


Game 5, the bulls lost, with both Jordan and Pippen playing like **** (Jordan maybe slightly less so, but both were terrible). Game 6, Pippen only plays 26 minutes due to the bad back and ends with 8/3/4, while Jordan put the team on his back and dropped 45 points, including 3 clutch plays at the end to come back from down 3 (hitting a layup within 5 seconds, stealing the ball from Malone, and hitting his famous game winner). You're completely delusional if you think Pippen had any case whatsoever over Jordan. And honestly, Pippen had even less of a case in 1997.

Look what you made me do... I actually like Pippen for what he is, not what you're trying to make him out to be. The problem here is that his abilities are being ludicrously overrated.

So your case is that Jordan deserved finals MVP because he played better in one game when Pippen got hurt... ;0 awesome!

[che guevara]

And 2 less games that Jordan was better in, and 3 less wins.



So your case is that Jordan deserved finals MVP because he played better in one game when Pippen got hurt... ;0 awesome!
Which games did Pippen play better than Jordan in? I'd love to hear a case for this.

[indiefan23]

Yeah Stockton is clearly a better passer/playmaker, but Payton is clearly a better scorer and defender. Scoring and defense are usually regarded as more important when evaluating basketball players.

Oh, really? Is that why Stockton is the career leader in steals by over 700 steals and almost 800 more then Payton? And why is it you think Stockton was a bad scorer when he put up 14.5 assists and 5 straight seasons of more then 13 dimes? Like, do you really think Payton is a better offensive player because he scored 9 dimes with 22 points while Stockton had 14.5 with 17 points? Do you really think 5 ppg is worth more then 5.5 APG, especially with the PG position?


Like I said, I'll take prime Payton and Pippen over prime Stockton. Who himself never really was able to take over games. Just played his role well and not really taking over. He was always 2nd fiddle to Malone (Malone's 2 MVPs and Stockton never finishing Top 6 in MVP voting is evident that he was easily considered more valuable than Stockton in Utah)...

? What do you mean he never took over games? John Stockton averaged over 13 APG for 5 seasons and has a career assist% of 51%. I mean, tell me exactly how many plays you saw Utah run without Stockton? The fact is Karl Malone does not deserve his MVP awards but at that time points were never considered. The real fact is that Stockton took over every game from the start to the finish. The Jazz were the best executing team in the league for 18 years and it was 100% because of JS. Seriously, how do you refer to a player who's got the ball in his hands 75% of the game and dishing 14.5 assists, along with the 7 highest assist%'s and 7 highest APG seasons in history as a role player?

[indiefan23]

Which games did Pippen play better than Jordan in? I'd love to hear a case for this.

Ahh... games 1 through 4. Pippen's defence was carrying the bulls. Again, you can read about it in Sports Illustrated if you think I'm making it up or something.

[indiefan23]

You severely overrate Stockton and underrate Payton.

Yeah 1996, but also
He was arguably Top 5 in 2000, and for sure in 1998.

Who's under rating Payton? He was incredible. Stockton is the best point of all time though.

[che guevara]

Ahh... games 1 through 4. Pippen's defence was carrying the bulls. Again, you can read about it in Sports Illustrated if you think I'm making it up or something.
I don't care whether or not Sports Illustrated said it, it doesn't matter. Game 1? Jordan had 33/3/2 with 2 blocks on 45% shooting. Pippen had 21/8/1, a block and a steal with 5 turnovers (Jordan had 0). You're forgetting that Jordan was a great defender himself - the relatively minor difference in their defensive impact is not even close to making up for the statistical gap. Jordan was clearly better in game 1. Oh, and the Bulls lost, so who gives a ****.

Game 4? It was pretty close. Maybe Pippen was better, but it wasn't clear cut.

Even after game 4, Jordan would still have been the favorite for Finals MVP to anybody rational. After game 6, Pippen had no case whatsoever.


Who's under rating Payton? He was incredible. Stockton is the best point of all time though.
http://jehingr.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/magic-johnson.jpg

[GP_20]

Who's under rating Payton? He was incredible. Stockton is the best point of all time though.
Top All-Time? There you go overrating Stockton. He's not even close to Magic.

[Roundball_Rock]

Because you're not considering defense. The game is played on BOTH ends and Pippen's defense was overshadowing everything in that series. The Jazz were actually trying to figure out ways to score after their pick-and-roll was stomping every other team in the league.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/events/1998/playoffs/news/1998/06/11/jordan_pippen/

"It's natural ability, desire and knowledge that makes Scottie such a great defensive player," teammate Michael Jordan says. "He sets the tempo defensively for us. The more active Scottie Pippen is, the better we are because we feed off of his situation. He can disrupt anybody's offense because he can play anybody from a point guard to the five (center) position."

"The luxury for us is to have a defender like Scottie who can cover more than one situation at a time, play a man and play a play," coach Phil Jackson says. "He's able to hang tight with whoever he's playing and recover and help on a defensive set so that the other team can't operate. Scottie is able to be a one-man wrecking crew."

:applause: Anyone who watched those finals knows the case for Pippen revolved around defense, especially in 98'.


THE N.B.A. FINALS: At Every Turn, Jazz Finds Pippen; The Bulls' Consummate Defender Picks Apart the Pick-and-Roll
By MIKE WISE
Published: June 9, 1998

Scottie Pippen was buzzing John Stockton like an annoying gnat in the backcourt, filling the passing lanes the way Coach Jerry Sloan wishes his players would and taking a charge from Karl Malone under the basket. On the next Utah Jazz possession, Pippen caused more havoc.

''He is probably the only guy in basketball who draws offensive fouls anymore,'' Sloan said today. ''He had a ton of them last night, I think eight or nine. That was about as good a display of being able to step up and take a charge as you'll see.''

Pippen, a roving linebacker in high-tops, is using the finals to reaffirm his position as the game's most complete and chaos-inspiring defensive player. On Sunday night, he was largely responsible for the lowest scoring total in National Basketball Association history since the advent of the shot clock, when the Chicago Bulls pulverized the Jazz, 96-54, to take a two-games-to-one lead in the four-of-seven-game series.

Pippen roamed the floor, spreading his 6-foot-7-inch angular body from player to player on the Jazz roster. Twenty-six Utah turnovers and an unprecedented finals rout later, everyone wanted to know how one player could cause such disruption.

He has obliterated the criticism he once received for not being physical enough. This post-season alone, he shut down Charlotte's Glen Rice in the second round and discombobulated the Pacers' offense in the Eastern Conference finals.


Whereas everyone remembers Steve Kerr's game-winning shot in Game 6 of last season's finals against the Jazz, few recall what happened moments later. Pippen deflected the inbounds pass on the other end to Toni Kukoc, who dunked to seal the victory and Chicago's fifth title.

''He could be the best defensive player playing,'' Malone said.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/09/sports/nba-finals-every-turn-jazz-finds-pippen-bulls-consummate-defender-picks-apart.html?pagewanted=1


THE N.B.A. PLAYOFFS; Bird Calls for Fouls on Pippen's Defense
By SELENA ROBERTS
Published: May 22, 1998


The lanky, 6-foot-7-inch Pippen has covered the 6-3 Jackson like a cup over a bug, and he continues to play as physically as he wants -- at least in Bird's view. As a result of Pippen's hands-on defense, Jackson has turned the ball over 14 times in Games 1 and 2 of the Eastern Conference final. It is no wonder the Pacers trail the Bulls, 2-0, in this four-of-seven series.


Pippen's defense has forced a stream of turnovers that have allowed the Bulls to win Games 1 and 2 despite being outrebounded and outshot from the floor.

''I think everything has been solid with the exception of the turnovers,'' said Jackson, who had a 5-to-1 assist-to-turnover ratio in the regular season. ''That's hurt us. And every turnover has given them life and energy and easy baskets. That's how they've been able to go on their runs. That's hurt us in both games.''

When Jackson has been able to move the ball around Pippen, the Pacers have been clicking. But stop Jackson, and you stop the ball flow. Before Reggie Miller can tear himself away from Ron Harper, before Rik Smits can get in position, the ball is in the Bulls' hands via a turnover. Often, there is contact in the process of Pippen's stripping Jackson. This is Bird's complaint. But will he be heard?

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/05/22/sports/the-nba-playoffs-bird-calls-for-fouls-on-pippen-s-defense.html?pagewanted=1


Sports Illustrated/and THE GOAT: CHICAGO (AP) -- Say this for Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen's supporting cast, they're not stupid.

Ask any one of the Chicago Bulls whether Jordan or Pippen deserves the MVP award for the NBA Finals, and they come back with the most decisive of non-decisive answers.

"Both," Steve Kerr said, smiling. "Co-MVPs."

Jordan has won the MVP in each of Chicago's five championship seasons. But even His Airness admits the Bulls might not be up 3-1 over the Utah Jazz -- let alone even in the finals -- if not for Pippen's smothering defense.

Chicago can win its sixth title in eight years with a victory Friday at the United Center.

Pippen is a mainstay with Jordan on the NBA's All-Defensive team. But he's cranked his defense up a notch in the playoffs, disrupting Indiana's offense and squeezing off Utah's famed pick-and-roll.

"Scottie Pippen is the reason, a major reason, why we're here," Jordan said Thursday. "He's a unique and creative type of player offensively and defensively. And the harmony between the two of us is incomparable. You can't compare it to anything. That's taken time to deliver and trust each other to where we compliment each other."

Against Utah, Pippen has been floating all over the floor. One second he's at the top of the key, the next he's doubling Karl Malone. In Game 3, when Chicago held Utah to a record-low 54 points, Pippen interrupted the pick-and-roll with his quickness and closed off Malone's inside game by planting himself in front of the basket and drawing charges. [Roundball's note: he injured his back doing this and then proceeded to shoot poorly due to that but MJ zealots turn around and use this great act of unselfish defense against Pippen. Pathetic.]

He's been so bothersome that Utah complains he's got to be playing illegal defense, but Pippen makes sure he's never in one place long enough to get caught.

"I use my speed, my quickness, my size to roam around the court and stay aggressive on the ball," he said. "To the Utah Jazz, I'm probably the most illegal guy that's ever played a game. But I'm being aggressive, and the officials see me as being the aggressor. I'm trying to stay active and doing a good job of pretty much recovering to my man or getting to the basket to get the defensive rebound, whatever it takes."

There's more to Pippen's game than defense. In Game 4, he had nine rebounds and a steal. He also scored 28 points, including 15 from 3-point range, and dished out five assists.

"From my situation, it's hard to merit who would be [MVP]," coach Phil Jackson said. "And I really don't like to think about it until we're finished, but I would say that between Michael and Scottie, you've got a real tough choice."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...jordan_pippen/

This is what was said at the time. MJ stans interested in revising history can't handle the inconvenient truth. Fortunately, evidence from the time lives on in SI and New York Times articles. This is how historians interpret how things appeared at the time. They read articles from major newspapers and major magazines (NYT=#1 newspaper. This is why it is called the "paper of record." For politics they would look to Time or Newsweek for magazines. For sports, SI reigns supreme). Thankfully! This makes historical revisionism difficult.


Dude I've read multiple posts from you where you said or implied that Pippen had to sacrifice stats due to Jordan. Now you're backpedalling on that and saying thats not the case?

Technically he did. Who cares? What I said is 90% of players, barring injury, have a season or two where their scoring spikes. Pippen didn't because Jordan was there when the spike would occur (96' and 97'). Does it matter? No. So what if he scored 24 or 25 ppg once or twice? Would he be rated higher? No. What matters is the lost recognition. What if he was traded to Seattle during the 95' season?

PF Schrempf
SF Pippen
C Perkins
SG Hawkins
PG Payton

I think we can agree this team has a great shot at least winning one championship. That mid-90's Seattle team was close to 60 wins every year. It is very likely that they would have the best or second best record in the league at once. Since Pippen would be the best player on the team he would have an excellent chance at winning a MVP. So Pippen could have had a MVP, a ring as "the man." Would he have 6 championships? No, but evidently even 1>6 if you win one as "the man" plus he would have a MVP. This is where he sacrificed to win. He could have demanded a trade to a contender to win as "the man." Seattle desperately wanted him. They were willing to give up a young Kemp for a 29 year old peak Pippen. Other teams were very interested in him. Phoenix for example (playing with a still very good Barkley and Kevin Johnson).

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen could've probably averaged 30 ppg if he wanted to, but on disgustingly low efficiency

I agree. He was a very good, top 10 caliber scorer but not a great scorer. He couldn't score 30 ppg on good efficiency. Have you ever seen me say he could? All I say is he could have scored 24-25 ppg.


The labels of "unselfish" and "selfish" seem to be thrown around too loosely around here. Anyone notice that every player that has been considered "selfish" happens to be a great 30+ ppg scorer (Jordan, Nique, AI, T-Mac, Kobe, etc.) while the players considered "unselfish" happens to be great point guards/forwards (Magic, Pippen, Kidd, Nash, CP3, etc).

KG? Duncan? :confusedshrug:

Bro, can you me a favor. Can you explain to magnax how Pip was a top 5 player in his prime, especially 94' and 95'? I have quoted you. I have quoted Reggie Miller. I have cited 5 Dream Team III members. I have quoted Chuck Daly. I have quoted Michael Jordan. I have cited all-NBA and all-Defensive teams. Yet magnax still thinks the notion that Pip was top 5 in his prime is preposterous.


I hate Scottie Pippen

Relax. No one is saying Pippen was more clutch than Jordan. All we did was respond to a MJ fan whose post made it seem as if Pippen was a Chris Webber in the clutch.


It's not that Pippen didn't make big plays, it's that Jordan was just so enormously good that he was overshadowed. Anyone who acts like they were of equal or even near-equal value to that team is kidding themselves, plain and simple.

We agree with the first sentence. Jordan was perhaps the most clutch player ever.

As to the second sentence, Marv Albert, Sports Illustrated, Bob Ryan, Ron Harper, and others are all delusional? Equal, no. Near-equal? Damn right for the second threepeat. Let me guess: they were all in on the big bad Kobe conspiracy as far back as 96' and 97'? I was watching Game 1 of the 97' finals just the other day. Guess what Albert says?

Part 3, 7:30: Albert: “In many ways he (Pippen) has been the Bulls' MVP in the postseason” (Game 1, 97' finals)

Search for Game 1 1997 NBA finals part 3.

SI:


June 09, 1997
Extending Himself
Not even You Know Who has been more valuable than Scottie Pippen in the Bulls' postseason run
Marty Burns


Just after his team had defeated the Utah Jazz in the opening game of the NBA Finals on Sunday, Scottie Pippen stood at mid-court in the United Center waiting for Michael Jordan to finish an interview with NBC. While Jordan was recounting his game-winning jumper over Bryon Russell, Pippen pumped his fists and celebrated along with the crowd of cheering Chicago Bulls fans. Only after Jordan was finished did Pippen step in front of the camera.

For the better part of 10 years in Chicago, picking up four NBA championship rings and two Olympic gold medals along the way, Pippen has played the role of Jordan's sidekick. And though Jordan's basket knocked another outstanding effort by Pippen out of the headlines, Pippen's performance on Sunday certified that he—as much as Jordan—has been the Bulls' MVP throughout the postseason.

Despite playing with a sore left foot that had him grimacing at times and despite being distracted by trade rumors that last week had him going to the Philadelphia 76ers, Pippen had 27 points, nine rebounds, four blocked shots and three steals against Utah. The soft tissue injury to his left foot, which he aggravated in the Eastern Conference-championship-clinching win over the Miami Heat on May 28, forced him to miss three days of practice last week, but he nevertheless played 43 minutes in Game 1, two more minutes than Jordan played and 10 more than any other Chicago player.

In many ways Pippen has been the Bulls' most consistent performer this postseason, averaging 18.8 points, 6.1 rebounds and 3.9 assists through Sunday while causing havoc on the defensive end. It was Pippen who made the dunk that beat the Washington Bullets in Game 3 of their first-round series, and it was Pippen who shut down Heat forward Jamal Mashburn in the Bulls' five-game series victory. "He has been unbelievable," says Chicago guard Steve Kerr. "He's hit some big shots. He makes things easier on Michael."

Last year Pippen helped the Bulls to their fourth title in six years while playing with a sore back, neck and foot, and last week he spent hours undergoing treatment for his injured foot. "During his therapy you could see he was in a lot of pain," says Chicago forward Jud Buechler. "We had no idea before the game if he could play at all, let alone as much as he did. But that's Scottie."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1010198/index.htm

Sports Illustrated: Pippen is the second best player in the league (1997).

1995-96 season ESPN Sunday Conversation

Roy Firestone interviewing Scottie: "They are saying this is an MVP season for you..."
Who was "they" you ask? Several people, including some guy named Michael Jeffery Jordan...

Bob Ryan: "This guy gives them elements on the court that are unattainable, unapproachable anywhere else..."

Dick Schaap: "Is he is good as his teammate?"

Ryan: "Well, as a matter of fact technically he is, but he doesn't have the aura of Michael Jordan but he can do things--in a package--that is unsurpassed in the NBA today..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTRqNvUSACE

Ryan considered Pippen the second-best player in the NBA at his peak. Who cares what he thinks? Well, he probably is the most respected NBA writer.

Matt Guokas: “Scottie Pippen, the best all-around player in the game. (1996)”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJQvkn_zUIg&feature=channel_page


Pippen has the sleek body lines of a Lear-jet. There's a tiny tattoo on his left biceps that reads PIP, and in case that's too subtle, a white wristband bearing the same three letters often rests just below his left elbow. Nobody plays the team game as well as Scot-tie Pippen, but because of his off-court pop-offs, few people acknowledge this.

"Everybody who talks about the Chicago Bulls talks about MJ first," Harper says, "but Pip had a more all-around game. Defense, offensive rebounds and defensive boards: Pip made the game easier for us to play. But he may not ever get his due, not until he brings that other championship ring home."

This is a technical analysis, a basketball purist's take, because in matters that can't be quantified but mean everything—heart, courage, response to pressure—Jordan was incomparable. But the fact is, Jordan never won a championship without Pippen, either, and for good reason. No one is more versatile than Pippen. "He's the best defender I've seen," Dunleavy says. "I put him in a class with Bobby Jones, Sidney Moncrief and certainly Jordan. But they're different. Jordan, at his position, may have been as good as there was. But Scottie could guard more positions than Michael. Scottie can handle more sizes."

Jackson wanted Pippen badly in L.A., but Buss never seriously considered going after him. "I thought it was meant to be," Jackson says. "I thought he was a godsend for us in L.A. For me to have to swallow it and move on was very difficult. On the Bulls he was probably the player most liked by the others. He mingled. He could bring out the best in the players and communicate the best. Leadership, real leadership, is one of his strengths. Everybody would say Michael is a great leader. He leads by example, by rebuke, by harsh words. Scottie's leadership was equally dominant, but it's a leadership of patting the back, support."

Or, as former Bull Joe Kleine puts it, "Michael was the father figure saying, 'You're grounded.' Pip was like Mom coming in to tell you everything's going to be all right."

At week's end the Trail Blazers were 15-4 and leading the Pacific Division. They had already handled contenders such as the Lakers and the Miami Heat—without the help of power forward Brian Grant, who returned from a knee injury on Nov. 17. Team president Bob Whitsitt gathered together this impressive bunch, dealing for Pippen and Smith and signing free agent Detlef Schrempf in the off-season, but Pippen is the one stitching the team together. "He wants another ring: That's why he's great and why he has six of them," Smith says. "He could just coast, but he won't. He still does the little things: He's here early, he defends. He still plays hard. He dislocated his finger and kept playing. A guy with six rings? You'd think he'd sit down. But he wants to win. No matter what it takes."


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1017938/5/index.htm

Need I continue?


While Jordan averaged 34 points 4 rebounds 3 assists and 2 steals a game in the series. Pippen only averaged 20 points, a steal, 3.5 assists, and 7 boards in the first four games. Just off that, how could you not give it to Jordan, and you still have failed to explain how he was a top five player in the league.


Sincerely,

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

See above regarding top 5. Ask guy. I have said all I can say to you. Or even ask OldSchool. This guy is the captain of the Pippen diminishing team , not because he is big hater but because he is very knowledgeable, shrewd and knows how to mask his agenda behind a kind of academic veneer. To put it simply, he is the most effective anti-Pippen voice here. Yet even he has said Pippen was top 5 for 4-5 seasons and top 10 for several more! Saying Pippen was top 5 is like saying Chris Paul was top 5 last year. It was the consensus at the time. What will you say a decade from now if someone asks you if Paul was top 5 in 2009?

You mentioned Pippen missed part of a game in 98'. Do you know how the game was going when he was in the game? Do you know what Utah did immediately after he left?


Yea, exactly. People like to say he was some kind of role player or something. ;0 He competed with Jordan for MVP's in the playoffs and it wasn't fake competition. Pippen was actually being considered for them... it wasn't lip service.

Yes, in 97' and 98'. Rodman competed for it in 96' but that too has been airbrushed from Jordanian history.


You severely overrate Stockton and underrate Payton.

Yeah 1996, but also
He was arguably Top 5 in 2000, and for sure in 1998.

This guy evidently doesn't care about defense. He thinks Pippen and Payton were "just" top 10--at their peaks. These guys were legendary defenders, perhaps the two best perimeter defenders ever. Yet since they never scored 30 ppg they weren't top 5? I


I actually like Pippen

:roll:

[Roundball_Rock]

Ahh... games 1 through 4. Pippen's defence was carrying the bulls. Again, you can read about it in Sports Illustrated if you think I'm making it up or something.

In other words, for 3 of the 4 Chicago wins...


I don't care whether or not Sports Illustrated said it, it doesn't matter. Game 1? Jordan had 33/3/2 with 2 blocks on 45% shooting. Pippen had 21/8/1, a block and a steal with 5 turnovers (Jordan had 0). You're forgetting that Jordan was a great defender himself - the relatively minor difference in their defensive impact is not even close to making up for the statistical gap. Jordan was clearly better in game 1. Oh, and the Bulls lost, so who gives a ****.

Game 4? It was pretty close. Maybe Pippen was better, but it wasn't clear cut.

Even after game 4, Jordan would still have been the favorite for Finals MVP to anybody rational.

Obviously this guy has never watched that finals.

1) If you aren't going to watch the games read the SI and New York Times articles. You obviously don't know what the games were about. You are citing Jordan's scoring and his good defense. Jordan's defense wasn't shutting Utah down (or before that wreaking havoc in the ECF on the Indiana offense). This was 98' Jordan, not 88' Jordan. Relatively minor gap? Wow. :wtf:

2) Anybody rational? Pippen was the favorite for FMVP after Game 4. Again, read the articles since you either don't remember what was being said at the time or weren't old enough to. This is what annoys many of us about Jordan. History is completely revised to make him look perfect in every way and the best at every possible thing. Now "anybody rational" had him as the FMVP favorite after Game 4 even though in reality it was Pippen who was the front-runner? You are either deliberately revising history or you have been fed so much Jordan propaganda that you cannot even fathom Pippen (or Rodman in 96') being considered for FMVP over him.

[che guevara]

In other words, for 3 of the 4 Chicago wins...



Obviously this guy has never watched that finals.

1) If you aren't going to watch the games read the SI and New York Times articles. You obviously don't know what the games were about. You are citing Jordan's scoring and his good defense. Jordan's defense wasn't shutting Utah down (or before that wreaking havoc in the ECF on the Indiana offense). This was 98' Jordan, not 88' Jordan. Relatively minor gap? Wow. :wtf: Again, watch the games or at least read the articles.

2) Anybody rational? Pippen was the favorite for FMVP after Game 4. Again, read the articles since you either don't remember what was being said at the time or weren't old enough to.
Relative to the statistical gap. One player doesn't shut down an entire team's offense. How you could have watched the series and come to the conclusion that Pippen was more important than Jordan, I don't know - and can you stop with the ad hominem attacks, like saying that I'm not old enough to remember the games (like I couldn't have watched it on Youtube anyway)? You're constantly using them, and all you're really doing is making yourself look like an immature teenager. If you really are in your late 20's, grow up.

Roundball, why are you overrating Pippen to this ludicrous extent? Are you a Kobe fan trying to diminish Jordan? What is it? There's no ****ing way you could have watched Pippen's career and actually think he was as good as you're making him out to be.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Hysterical. Pippen "competed with Jordan" for postseason MVP in '97 and '98. These cats are beyond delusional. :oldlol:

Jordan (1997 playoffs): 31.1 pts/7.9 reb/4.8 ast/1.6 stl/.8 blk/45.6% FG/27.1 PER

Pippen (1997 playoffs): 19.2 pts/6.8 reb/3.8 ast/1.5 stl/.9 blk/41.7% FG/18.1 PER


Jordan (1998 playoffs): 32.4 pts/5.1 reb/3.5 ast/1.5 stl/.6 blk/46.2% FG/28.1 PER

Pippen (1998 playoffs): 16.8 pts/7.1 reb/5.2 ast/2.1 stl/.9 blk/41.5% FG/19.5 PER


Keep drinking that Kool-Aid, guys. :oldlol:

[Roundball_Rock]

Relative to the statistical gap. One player doesn't shut down an entire team's offense. How you could have watched the series and come to the conclusion that Pippen was more important than Jordan, I don't know - and can you stop with the ad hominem attacks, like saying that I'm not old enough to remember the games (like I couldn't have watched it on Youtube anyway)? You're constantly using them, and all you're really doing is making yourself look like an immature teenager. If you really are in your late 20's, grow up.

You obviously didn't watch them or have forgotten. They are on YouTube. Maybe you did watch them but if you did you clearly have forgotten what happened. Read the articles since that gives you a flavor of what happened instead of spending hours watching all the games. Pippen's defense was the top story. He was destroying the Utah defense in 98'. Why would SI and the New York Times conspire to concoct a story about Pippen doing this? Were they in the tank for 18 year old Kobe too? In Game 3 he scored only 10 points yet the NYT credited him with causing the Jazz to score 54 points--a record low--in the game. You are only looking at the 10 points he scored, not what he did on defense.

One player doesn't shut down an entire team's offense? Ask Jerry Sloan, Karl Malone, John Stockton, Larry Bird, Mark Jackson, and Reggie Miller about that one. Of course he wasn't 100% responsible but he was the dominant reason for it, just as Jordan wasn't 100% responsible for the Bulls' offense.

There is nothing wrong with not watching them or not remembering them. That was over a decade ago. It wasn't an attack. If I tend to be rude toward you the next time I do it PM me and I will correct it in the future.

Here are three more articles. The Washington Post, Philadelphia Inquirer, and Daily Herald (Miami?) were all whoring for 18 or 19 year old Kobe too?


With forward Scottie Pippen playing the passing lanes to help force 26 Jazz turnovers and the Bulls collectively using their superior speed and reach to harass the Jazz into shooting a collective 30 percent, Chicago took a 2-1 lead in the best-of-seven series with a ...

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-665954.html


Taking charge: Pippen draws raves from all around for his stellar defense

In holding their opposition to 54 points Sunday, several members of the Bulls played very well defensively, but Pippen was the key, playing a sort of free-safety role and stopping the Jazz from getting into their offense, much less scoring.

Pippen got 2 of the Bulls' 4 steals, had 1 blocked shot and got four charging calls, twice stepping in on Karl Malone as he swung into the lane and toward the basket. His defensive effort allowed others, like Toni Kukoc, to come up with steals, and the Bulls had 13 pilfers and 6 blocked shots while holding the Jazz to 30 percent shooting and no more than 17 points in any quarter.

"I can't conjure anyone playing defense like Pippen,'' said Dr. Jack Ramsay, the former Portland Trail Blazers coach and current NBA broadcast analyst.

"Scottie has been the key to this team the last two or three years,'' said Bulls coach Phil Jackson. "This guy has become something that is in another dimension. I don't know if there is a better defensive player in understanding, the visualization, concepts of what the opponent's offense is about.

"He has been a one-man wrecking crew. He just loves to take opponents apart with his defense. He is a great offensive player, but defense is his hallmark."

More at http://www.dailyherald.com/special/bulls98/game4/16rest.htm


Byline: Bill Lyon Philadelphia Inquirer

Like any accomplished pickpocket he can lift your wallet. Except Scottie Pippen can do it from across the street. He has the wingspan of a 757. And feet so quick you suspect he might be able to catch his own shadow.

``What Scottie's doing,'' said John Stockton the bewildered Utah lead guard, ``is floating.''
What the Jazz is doing is floating, too. Like a corpse in water.

Utah trails the Bulls in the NBA finals by a game, but it feels more like six games after that Sunday-night 96-54 mushroom cloud. ``What we have to do now,'' said Pippen, ``is come out and do this again.''

Is that possible? After all, no team ever played better, more strangulating *defense than the Bulls did on the Jazz. That was the closest thing basketball has to a shutout. There wasn't a Jazz player Pippen didn't guard at some point. He was the free safety. Roaming. Rotating. Helping. Recovering.

Was he also illegal? Probably. In the NBA who really knows? But he's so quick the officials didn't whistle him for playing an illegal defense and the Jazz didn't do anything to help itself. It didn't hold the ball to force Pippen to commit and then pass to whomever*he abandoned.

The Jazz just didn't look like itself. Utah doesn't look like it really believes it can win. And a large measure of this is Pippen. It has neither antidote nor answer for him. He pressures the ball at midcourt, then rejects a 7-foot-2 center.

All that worked for the Jazz this year suddenly doesn't work. Pippen has taken it away and Utah appears to have no Plan B. Jazz personnel say they have options off their options, but where are they? Which brings us to an interesting question: Who is the second-best player in the NBA?

The question isn't whom would you take to build a franchise around. The question is who is, in all-around ability, second only to you-know-who?

Shaquille O'Neal ? Possibly.

Karl Malone ? His strange passivity and fade in these finals notwithstanding. Possibly.

Pippen? No worse than fourth.

And if he had his perimeter shot, he'd be second.

Every year the balloters for defensive player of the year go by the numbers and select either the league leader in blocked shots or the league leader in steals. But you ask a coach. You ask anyone who sees a hundred games a year. And Pippen is almost always their choice.

Every time we fall to thinking he's soft, he blasts to the hole. Or he runs half the length of the court to overhaul Malone, gets in front of him and takes the charge. He's also adept at flopping, by the by.

Michael Jordan said yesterday: ``It's like playing with my twin brother in some respects.''

Jordan also insisted that the best thing that happened to Pippen was ``when I stepped away.'' Meaning his baseball odyssey. Meaning Pippen had the chance to define himself.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/UTAH+IN+PIPPEN%27S+POCKET%3B+CHICAGO+DEFENDER%27S+ PRESENCE+CONSIDERABLE+IN+...-a083826695

So even in 98' a respected sports writer in a major newspaper which had no horse in the race was saying Pippen was anywhere from the 2nd best to the 4th best player in the league. All for Kobe? After all, he was born near Philly?!

The reference to his perimeter shot regarding the fact that by 98' Pip was declining and not shooting as well as he did during his best years of 94'-97')

The talk about illegal defense is Pippen was owning the Indiana and then Utah offense so much they resorted to crying that he was playing illegal defense (false). That tells you how desperate they were. Why weren't they crying about Jordan's defense?



Roundball, why are you overrating Pippen to this ludicrous extent? Are you a Kobe fan trying to diminish Jordan? What is it? There's no ****ing way you could have watched Pippen's career and actually think he was as good as you're making him out to be

Yeah, my plan is to diminish Jordan from #1 to #3 so Kobe moves up from #10 to...#10?! Pippen is my favorite player of all-time. He was arguably the third most popular player of the 90's. Not everybody got on the Jordan corporate bandwagon, just as not everybody has gotten on the Lebron and Kobe bandwagon's in the 2000's. What is with this Kobe thing? I never see Kobe fans in Pippen threads. Do you see Kobe fans defending Pippen in this thread, other than one exception? Hitmary, me, and others like 97_bulls are Pippen fans (although I don't know if Pippen was their favorite but they clear are/were fans). Indie wrote an article against Kobe.

Really? You didn't read the articles. I am not the only one who thought he was that good. Were Marv Albert, Matt Guokas, Bob Ryan, Sports Illustrated, the New York Times, half of Dream Team III, etc. all in on the big bad Kobe conspiracy as far back as 96', 97', and 98'?


ysterical. Pippen "competed with Jordan" for postseason MVP in '97 and '98. These cats are beyond delusional.

:oldlol: Yeah, SI, Marv Albert, and others were delusional. LMAO at citing offensive stats and ignoring defense. PER is a joke. According to PER Magic Johnson--and no PG--is top 10 all-time (why? turnovers hurt your PER. Who was Chicago's chief ballhandler?). You are a MJ fan so presumably you used to be a Bulls fan (Cavs now?). Here are the Bulls' best players today according to PER:

Deng
Tyrus Thomas
Noah and Rose tied
Gibson

Until Rose's big game the other day PER had Rose as the 4th best Bull. :roll:



Pippen (1997 playoffs): 19.2 pts/6.8 reb/3.8 ast/1.5 stl/.9 blk/41.7% FG/18.1 PER

This is low. Why are you including the game where Pippen got hurt and played only 7 minutes and scored 2 points? His actual numbers were more like 20/7.5/etc.

1980 NBA finals

Kareem: 33/14/3 with 5 blocks a game
Magic: 21.5/11/9

Guess who won MVP? :oldlol: at just looking at scoring.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I took the numbers from basketball-reference.com. Deal with it. If you want to take the time to recalculate them for a missing game, do so. It's still nowhere near close. And no, Pippen's "defensive impact" doesn't close that gap at all, especially when Jordan had a large defensive impact as well -- he was no Magic Johnson out there.

[Roundball_Rock]

And no, Pippen's "defensive impact" doesn't close that gap at all, especially when Jordan had a large defensive impact as well

The record speaks for itself. No one was talking about Jordan shutting down Utah or Indiana. If he did anywhere near that we would hear about it 24/7 from that day forward. The fact that the media couldn't even include him in the discussion says it all about what really happened. These are guys who would credit Jordan for it raining if he showed up in the middle of a drought. Saying it doesn't "close that gap at all" is a joke. Of course it closed the gap. The question is how much? At the time we know what the answer was.

What a shame Pippen had the bad luck of getting injured taking so many charges--7 from Karl Malone alone in one game. How many did MJ take? Those are lost possessions for the other team. How many points are they worth? Utah scored 1.13 points per possession that year with the best offense in the league. Those 7 turnovers on Malone charges alone translate to -8 points for Utah based on their average efficiency when Scottie wasn't there shutting them down. Then there are other charges he took, other turnovers he caused, the missed shots him flying from nowhere to contest them caused, the poor shot selection his harassment caused because it ruined the play or caused them to force a bad shot up to beat the shot clock, etc. all were points Pippen subtracted from Utah. There is no neat stat like "points per game" to quantify what impact all this had.

Luck matters. Pippen did not have the nearly perfect luck that some others were blessed with in their careers. The Hollins atrocity in 94' (everyone aside from Knicks fans and Jordan fans, who evidently hopped on the Knick bandwagon in 94' because they couldn't stand the Bulls succeeding that year agrees it was egregious and had immense consequences on the outcome of that season. Forget the series. The season.), injuries in 96' (cost him a higher than 5th MVP finish. Probably 3rd and definitely 4th since he was only 2% behind Hakeem in the vote. It also cost him a shot at FMVP when MJ had the worst finals of his career since Pippen's myriad of injuries caused him to have his worst as well), the back injury in 98' when he had a great shot at the FMVP are the three biggest examples.

I did recalculate the scoring and rebounding a long time ago. The scoring definitely got over 20 ppg. The real scoring gap was 11 ppg. What was the defensive gap? Too bad there is no stat that can determine this. Jordan imo was more valuable but Pippen was damn near close in 97' and 98'. Jordan himself would tell you that.

Wait. Hitmary: this is you??????? http://www.youtube.com/Scottie33Pippen If so, :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[momo]

I have to say Jason Kidd with obvious troll. Pippen was good, but never got out of obvious troll without having a guy on the team that made the allstar game. Kidd took his team to the finals without dwight>yao.

:D

[chitownsfinest]

Ron Harper was the primary defender on Stockton in the Bulls-Jazz series, not Pippen. Pippen played great help D but Harper was the one constantly bodying up Stockton when he dribble the ball up and obstructing his view. Longley and Rodman were the ones who guarded Malone in the 98 series. If I, remeber, Malone would destroy Longley and then Rodman would come in and force Malone to his weak spots and force Malone to shoot tough jumpers. I believe Malone was shooting in the 30s against Rodman's D in that series at one point (NBC aired a graphic I beleive) yet the article does not say that at all. It's unfair to act as if Pippen was doing all the work on defense in that series. Even if Pippen had more defensive impact then Jordan in that series, Jordan had the much bigger scoring impact and was simply the better player. He had 14 points in the 4th of game 2 and scored like 45 of Chicago's last 80 points in game 6 with Pippen out most of the game with a bad back. Jordan had to score 38% of his teams points in that series and scored more then twice the ppg then Pippen scored in that series (even if you take out Pippen's game 6, the gap is still big). Pippen's defense was amazing in that series but scoring is what won the games in end and the Bulls needed Jordan's scoring in that series. Pippen had lost a lot of his scoring ability and explosiveness due to injury, Harp was a poor scorer, Kukoc was too inconsistent of a scorer but did step up in that series, Rodman did not score, and Longley was too limited of a scorer. While Bulls had other really good defenders other then Pippen, they did not have players to pick up on the scoring if MJ didn't score 30+ a game.

Another thing to note is that scoring will be the biggest outlier for determinong the finals mvp no matter what. For example, Duncan had the larger defensive impact then Parker in 07 but Parker's 6 ppg advantage on Duncan got him the FMVP. Ben Wallace easily had the bigger defensive and rebounding impact on Biluups, but Billups got the FMVP due to larger scoring impact. Heck, you can argue Kobe had the bigger defensive impact then Shaq (while Kobe's defense is arguably overrated today, his defensive impact in the early 2000s was really effective and he was known as a top defender) in 02 or 01 for that matter, but Shaq's larger impact on scoring and offense was too large and made up for any difference in D. The point is that in the end scoring will be valued as the more important factor in determining the FMVP and imo that is fair (you will probably disagree but we have our different opionions). The only time I believe that you had a player win a FMVP despite having a lower scoring output as Pippen's was to Jordan was Magic in 1980, and that is widely regarded by most as a bs win as Kareem easily deserved it. Pippen played great in the 97 series (better then Malone imo in that series) and had a very good series in 98 before his back took him out of game 6, but Jordan was sim0ply the better player in those finals. Alot of those Jazz-Chicago games were close in the end and a jordan takeover or game winner was the difference maker in a win or loss for Chicago. Jordan had 3 game winners against Utah in that stretch: game 1 in 97, game 6 in 98, and a clutch three off his own missed free throw to give Chicago the lead with about 30 left i believe in the "flu game". He also had plenty of 4th quarters where he scored 12+.

[indiefan23]

I don't care whether or not Sports Illustrated said it, it doesn't matter. Game 1? Jordan had 33/3/2 with 2 blocks on 45% shooting. Pippen had 21/8/1, a block and a steal with 5 turnovers (Jordan had 0). You're forgetting that Jordan was a great defender himself - the relatively minor difference in their defensive impact is not even close to making up for the statistical gap. Jordan was clearly better in game 1. Oh, and the Bulls lost, so who gives a ****.

Game 4? It was pretty close. Maybe Pippen was better, but it wasn't clear cut.

I really do disagree. I don't care if Jordan scored a whole extra 4 buckets and hit a couple free throws. Jordan was a great defender and Pippen was a great scorer. Pippen's defensive impact on that series was one of the best ever seen in the finals and immeasurably important to the 98 title.


Even after game 4, Jordan would still have been the favorite for Finals MVP to anybody rational. After game 6, Pippen had no case whatsoever.

Well, as I said, plenty of rational people work for SI. The argument was not irrational at the time at all since everyone was talking about it. It was a common idea, not something crazy as you suggest. Maybe you're one of the 21 years old crowd that Roundball Rock talks about that pass judgment on games that didn't actually watch. Pippen's defence carried them through that series. Defence is something that has 0 stats so trying to compare it to Jordan statistically is pretty much useless.



http://jehingr.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/magic-johnson.jpg

Its sad what happened to Magic, but his career at point is just not better then Stockton's. Stockton dominated the league for 18 years and had 5 stright seasons with more APG then Magic's best of 13.1. He had 8 full seasons with a higher assist % then Magic's highest season of 49.7. He's got 3 seasons with steals over 3 to Magic's 1, and 10 seasons over 2 to Magic's 5. Magic was a better scorer and rebounder then Stockton, but I don't think that really plays into evaluating a PG. Its kind of like how Duncan's stats dominate everyone at the 4 because he has played so much 5. People look at career averages but don't count that Magic retired when he was 31 and in his prime. Stockton retired when he was 40.

Was magic a better player? I'd have to say yes, he could flat out do way more things then Stockton could. His versatility was off the charts. But could he do more PG things then Stockton? Not really. In fact Magic's jumper, for an all time point discussion, was pretty weak for the majority of his career.

There is a subtle yet significant difference between being the best who played at a position, and playing a position the best.

[Abraham Lincoln]

Ron Harper was the primary defender on Stockton in the Bulls-Jazz series, not Pippen. Pippen played great help D but Harper was the one constantly bodying up Stockton when he dribble the ball up and obstructing his view. Longley and Rodman were the ones who guarded Malone in the 98 series. If I, remeber, Malone would destroy Longley and then Rodman would come in and force Malone to his weak spots and force Malone to shoot tough jumpers. I believe Malone was shooting in the 30s against Rodman's D in that series at one point (NBC aired a graphic I beleive) yet the article does not say that at all. It's unfair to act as if Pippen was doing all the work on defense in that series. Even if Pippen had more defensive impact then Jordan in that series, Jordan had the much bigger scoring impact and was simply the better player. He had 14 points in the 4th of game 2 and scored like 45 of Chicago's last 80 points in game 6 with Pippen out most of the game with a bad back. Jordan had to score 38% of his teams points in that series and scored more then twice the ppg then Pippen scored in that series (even if you take out Pippen's game 6, the gap is still big). Pippen's defense was amazing in that series but scoring is what won the games in end and the Bulls needed Jordan's scoring in that series. Pippen had lost a lot of his scoring ability and explosiveness due to injury, Harp was a poor scorer, Kukoc was too inconsistent of a scorer but did step up in that series, Rodman did not score, and Longley was too limited of a scorer. While Bulls had other really good defenders other then Pippen, they did not have players to pick up on the scoring if MJ didn't score 30+ a game.

Another thing to note is that scoring will be the biggest outlier for determinong the finals mvp no matter what. For example, Duncan had the larger defensive impact then Parker in 07 but Parker's 6 ppg advantage on Duncan got him the FMVP. Ben Wallace easily had the bigger defensive and rebounding impact on Biluups, but Billups got the FMVP due to larger scoring impact. Heck, you can argue Kobe had the bigger defensive impact then Shaq (while Kobe's defense is arguably overrated today, his defensive impact in the early 2000s was really effective and he was known as a top defender) in 02 or 01 for that matter, but Shaq's larger impact on scoring and offense was too large and made up for any difference in D. The point is that in the end scoring will be valued as the more important factor in determining the FMVP and imo that is fair (you will probably disagree but we have our different opionions). The only time I believe that you had a player win a FMVP despite having a lower scoring output as Pippen's was to Jordan was Magic in 1980, and that is widely regarded by most as a bs win as Kareem easily deserved it. Pippen played great in the 97 series (better then Malone imo in that series) and had a very good series in 98 before his back took him out of game 6, but Jordan was sim0ply the better player in those finals. Alot of those Jazz-Chicago games were close in the end and a jordan takeover or game winner was the difference maker in a win or loss for Chicago. Jordan had 3 game winners against Utah in that stretch: game 1 in 97, game 6 in 98, and a clutch three off his own missed free throw to give Chicago the lead with about 30 left i believe in the "flu game". He also had plenty of 4th quarters where he scored 12+.
Yes.

Sadly, nobody here understands the concept of the "team" anymore. It's all about 1 man fans beit real or make believe disputing which teammate of the two was more important to the team. That is talk that should be reserved for a coaching staff or the idiotic press looking to make $$$ from the brainwashed fans. Scottie in '97 was playing as their most consistent performer. Not to say he was better than Jordan, but his game conformed to that of Jordan's beautifully. No active wing player today in their current state could nearly be as effective in that role on either end of the floor. He did at both. He was the 'balancer' so to speak on offense and as important to the team concept during the 2nd run of championships, when he was more polished in the half court from his younger years on both ends and as good in transition. Bulls primary offensive weapon was Jordan, but can a team that lives on ball movement & player movement have a specified player that be relegated to the term "1st option" or "2nd option"? That should not decrease the value of Pippen, Rodman, Longley, Harper, or Kukoc in certain instances. Jordan was capable of carrying that team on his back. Pippen was capable of carrying that team his back. Together the were capable of ruling the NBA. You appear to be a Chicago Bulls fan, so I'd encourage you to gracefully bow out and not waste time with the KB fan and his next post which will likely be a generic reply applauding you for the same thing I have been deemed a 'troll' (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154591) for.

[indiefan23]

Ron Harper was the primary defender on Stockton in the Bulls-Jazz series, not Pippen. Pippen played great help D
but Harper was the one constantly bodying up Stockton when he dribble the ball up and obstructing his view. Longley and Rodman were the ones who guarded Malone in the 98 series. If I, remeber, Malone would destroy Longley and then Rodman would come in and force Malone to his weak spots and force Malone to shoot tough jumpers.

Yea, Ron Harper and his huge 24 minutes in games one and two. ;0 And what does it matter who Stockton's primary defender was? I said Pippen was a floater who disrupted the entire team's offense dramatically hurting Stockton/Malone's effectiveness. Pippen guarded 'everyone' in that series.


It's unfair to act as if Pippen was doing all the work on defense in that series. Even if Pippen had more defensive impact then Jordan in that series, Jordan had the much bigger scoring impact and was simply the better player. He had 14 points in the 4th of game 2 and scored like 45 of Chicago's last 80 points in game 6 with Pippen out most of the game with a bad back.

Who said all? I just said best, and I did say carried. Pippen's D led the bulls to a 3-1 lead and hurt his back in the process. Yea, Jordan scored a lot of points, he was their 'SCORING' guard.


Jordan had to score 38% of his teams points in that series and scored more then twice the ppg then Pippen scored in that series (even if you take out Pippen's game 6, the gap is still big). Pippen's defense was amazing in that series but scoring is what won the games in end[quote]

It was? ;0 I beg to differ. The Jazz averages 101 points a game that season and had the most efficient offense in the league. The Bulls had the 9'th best offense, but the 3'rd best defence. The Jazz didn't score more then 88 points in any game, had one game where they scored 54 points and averages 80 PPG, 20 below their seasonal average. Defence won that title and stating otherwise is historical revision.

[quote]and the Bulls needed Jordan's scoring in that series. Pippen had lost a lot of his scoring ability and explosiveness due to injury, Harp was a poor scorer

He was? ;0 Harper was older but he knew how to score. Poor scorers don't have multiple 20 PPG seasons.



Another thing to note is that scoring will be the biggest outlier for determinong the finals mvp no matter what. For example, Duncan had the larger defensive impact then Parker in 07 but Parker's 6 ppg advantage on Duncan got him the FMVP. Ben Wallace easily had the bigger defensive and rebounding impact on Biluups, but Billups got the FMVP due to larger scoring impact.

How is bringing up other people who were robbed of FMVP awards helping you? As if Tony Parker was more valuable then Duncan. ;0


Heck, you can argue Kobe had the bigger defensive impact then Shaq (while Kobe's defense is arguably overrated today, his defensive impact in the early 2000s was really effective and he was known as a top defender) in 02 or 01 for that matter, but Shaq's larger impact on scoring and offense was too large and made up for any difference in D.

Are you effing kidding me? ;0 Holy crap. Shaq averaged 16 boards and 3.4 blocks in a finals. You could argue it but you'd be dead wrong.


The point is that in the end scoring will be valued as the more important factor in determining the FMVP and imo that is fair (you will probably disagree but we have our different opionions). The only time I believe that you had a player win a FMVP despite having a lower scoring output as Pippen's was to Jordan was Magic in 1980, and that is widely regarded by most as a bs win as Kareem easily deserved it. Pippen played great in the 97 series (better then Malone imo in that series) and had a very good series in 98 before his back took him out of game 6, but Jordan was sim0ply the better player in those finals. Alot of those Jazz-Chicago games were close in the end and a jordan takeover or game winner was the difference maker in a win or loss for Chicago. Jordan had 3 game winners against Utah in that stretch: game 1 in 97, game 6 in 98, and a clutch three off his own missed free throw to give Chicago the lead with about 30 left i believe in the "flu game". He also had plenty of 4th quarters where he scored 12+.

No, my point is that basketball fans, like many players, are quite dumb and have no idea how the game works. Yes, its very easy to say that the best player is always the one who scored the most points, but in reality that is just not true because defence is equally as important as offense. Its just ridiculous, you're saying Pippen's all time effort in that finals was due to Ron Freaking Harper when he was playing 24 minute games to Pippen's 43 per game average before he got hurt. ;0

Anyway, sure, you want to make excuses but the reality is that the MVP award is not actually an offensive award. Its not an opinion, it's a fact. It's often handed out to the best offensive player, but it's really because the league markets itself on offensive players. Over value scoring if you want, but it 'is' equally important and that's not an opinion. If Pippen didn't get hurt, the bulls probably win the series in 5 and Pippen takes home the MVP. Its was not even controversial... prior to his injury that's what most everyone thought would happen.

[indiefan23]

Yes.

Sadly, nobody here understands the concept of the "team" anymore. It's all about 1 man fans beit real or make believe disputing which teammate of the two was more important to the team. That is talk that should be reserved for a coaching staff or the idiotic press looking to make $$$ from the brainwashed fans. Scottie in '97 was playing as their most consistent performer. Not to say he was better than Jordan, but his game conformed to that of Jordan's beautifully. No active wing player today in their current state could nearly be as effective in that role on either end of the floor. He did at both. He was the 'balancer' so to speak on offense and as important to the team concept during the 2nd run of championships, when he was more polished in the half court from his younger years on both ends and as good in transition. Bulls primary offensive weapon was Jordan, but can a team that lives on ball movement & player movement have a specified player that be relegated to the term "1st option" or "2nd option"? That should not decrease the value of Pippen, Rodman, Longley, Harper, or Kukoc in certain instances. Jordan was capable of carrying that team on his back. Pippen was capable of carrying that team his back. Together the were capable of ruling the NBA. You appear to be a Chicago Bulls fan, so I'd encourage you to gracefully bow out and not waste time with the KB fan and his next post which will likely be a generic reply applauding you for the same thing I have been deemed a 'troll' (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154591) for.

Hmm... you're a bit of a troll Abe, but I like you. :)

I was a huge Jordan fan back in the day. As RRock pointed out, this seems to really be turning into a debate between people who actually watched the series and people who looked up Jordan's scoring stats.

Although I'm not sure this guy has watched any games... he tried to say Kobe was arguably the better defensive player in LA. ;0

[indiefan23]

The record speaks for itself. No one was talking about Jordan shutting down Utah or Indiana. If he did anywhere near that we would hear about it 24/7 from that day forward.

Yea, exactly. Jordan was the vehicle for the entire league. Nothing he did of note was under-rated, under-reported, or under-repeated, ever.

[indiefan23]

Relative to the statistical gap. One player doesn't shut down an entire team's offense.

Not one normal player, but Pippen was not normal.

[chitownsfinest]

^
Harper averaged 28 minutes per game in the 98 series and Stockton averaged 31 mpg. My point in mentioning him was that he was the primary defender on Stockton and had as much importance on disrupting the Jazz p & r then Pippen did. Harper would pick up on Stockton while he dribbled up court and would disrupt his motion. This would slow down the Jazz offense and pippen would then come as the help defender on the possible screener. They both had an important impact.

You saying carried is revision as well. Rodman held Malone to under 40% shooting (I will try posting the link later when I come back) in the periods he guarded him and would routunely shut him out in 4th quarters. It was a tem defensive effort and timely scoring from Jordan that led them to a 3-1 lead.

Your point? The Bulls only averaged 88 ppg in that series and their offense was weaker as well. Jordan was Chicago's most consistent scorere in that series and had to be. The 98 Bulls defense was extremely gritty and played a huge role in the series win and i'm not denying that at all but the Bulls needed Mj to gout there and score 30+ ppg. 3 of Chicago's 4 wins were close and went down the wire.

I meant Harp was a poor scorer in 98. He was a good scorer in his Cleveland and Clipper days, but that is entirely irrelevant to the discussion as I am talking about him in 98.

My point in that was not that all those players deserved it entirely but the player who was the bigger scoring impact will be looked more favorably as the FMVP then that player who has the larger defensive impact. You clearly misread my point entirely. Maybe I was wrong about the Kobe point but Kobe was viewed as a great perimeter defender in those days. You also sort of go against your on views in mentioning the block numbers. Didn't you say earlier in the thread that stats can't be used to measue defense? Since you are using blocks as an argument, I guess Jordan and Pippen had similar defensive impact since they averaged around the same spg and bpg in the 98 finals?

Where did I say Harper was the reason Pippen played well? I just said he was really important in disrupting the Jazz p & r as well. I also stated that the FMVP is viewed as an offensive award and is often given to the best scorer. Your reading comprehension is clearly low.

Also, good post ABE. I agree with everything you said.

[Duncan21formvp]

A guy who averaged 15 ppg on 41% deserved finals mvp
:wtf:

[Abraham Lincoln]

Hmm... you're a bit of a troll Abe, but I like you. :)

I was a huge Jordan fan back in the day. As RRock pointed out, this seems to really be turning into a debate between people who actually watched the series and people who looked up Jordan's scoring stats.

Although I'm not sure this guy has watched any games... he tried to say Kobe was arguably the better defensive player in LA. ;0
I am no more of a troll than 95% of the NBA Forum. And Kobe did not have the same defensive impact as big man Shaq did (especially with def. 3 seconds) but he was a very capable shut down guy and defensive superstar. Inconsistent at times, but very capable unlike these past several years where he has lived off reputation. And RR is one of the top out of context statistcal crunchers here. Even if the modern fan were to go back and watch those games, they would still not understand the importance of Pippen because they either follow the ball handler all the time or only care about 1-1 iso scoring. Or both. Not everyone can make a proper helpside defensive stab like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XNfDxZ5Sm4) (7:50 mark) or lead a perfect fast break like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20ByBuATTyg) (0:40 mark).

[Abraham Lincoln]

A guy who averaged 15 ppg on 41% deserved finals mvp
:wtf:
Statistical scoring stats shall not be the sole determinant of the top player. As the wise man Red once said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_G8SlZTuIA) (3:00 mark), offensive stats are not very useful other than to an agent attempting to sell his client to a team. Jordan was not better than Bryant due to his stats, but rather his proper decisiveness and flat out superior ability in most aspects. Shaq was not better than Duncan due to his stats, but rather his direct effect on a team's opposing big men as well as getting the entire team into the penalty early in quarters. Just rough examples on the top separating factors between the players.

[guy]

Technically he did. Who cares? What I said is 90% of players, barring injury, have a season or two where their scoring spikes. Pippen didn't because Jordan was there when the spike would occur (96' and 97'). Does it matter? No. So what if he scored 24 or 25 ppg once or twice? Would he be rated higher? No.

No he didn't. The evidence shows that technically the presence of Jordan cost Pippen 1 ppg at the most. Thats almost nothing. Why would the scoring spike occur in 96 or 97? When he's 31-32 as opposed to 29-30?




What matters is the lost recognition. What if he was traded to Seattle during the 95' season?

PF Schrempf
SF Pippen
C Perkins
SG Hawkins
PG Payton

I think we can agree this team has a great shot at least winning one championship. That mid-90's Seattle team was close to 60 wins every year. It is very likely that they would have the best or second best record in the league at once. Since Pippen would be the best player on the team he would have an excellent chance at winning a MVP. So Pippen could have had a MVP, a ring as "the man." Would he have 6 championships? No, but evidently even 1>6 if you win one as "the man" plus he would have a MVP. This is where he sacrificed to win. He could have demanded a trade to a contender to win as "the man." Seattle desperately wanted him. They were willing to give up a young Kemp for a 29 year old peak Pippen. Other teams were very interested in him. Phoenix for example (playing with a still very good Barkley and Kevin Johnson).

I find it funny that 11 years after Pippen was a Bull we're arguing about Pippen's lack of recognition. That in itself shows he gets plenty of recognition. Pippen got the most recognition he could've playing with the Bulls. If he didn't play with the Bulls, he's probably about as recognized as someone like Drexler or Ewing.

And I agree, that team has a shot at winning a championship, but its kind of irrelevant, cause guess what? So did alot of teams.

[Da_Realist]

Statistical scoring stats shall not be the sole determinant of the top player. As the wise man Red once said (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_G8SlZTuIA) (3:00 mark), offensive stats are not very useful other than to an agent attempting to sell his client to a team. Jordan was not better than Bryant due to his stats, but rather his proper decisiveness and flat out superior ability in most aspects. Shaq was not better than Duncan due to his stats, but rather his direct effect on a team's opposing big men as well as getting the entire team into the penalty early in quarters. Just rough examples on the top separating factors between the players.

Good post :applause:

[Roundball_Rock]

Bulls primary offensive weapon was Jordan, but can a team that lives on ball movement & player movement have a specified player that be relegated to the term "1st option" or "2nd option"? That should not decrease the value of Pippen, Rodman, Longley, Harper, or Kukoc in certain instances. Jordan was capable of carrying that team on his back. Pippen was capable of carrying that team his back. Together the were capable of ruling the NBA.

:applause: You have also said they were 1a/1b during the second threepeat. When I say the same thing they say I am delusional. :oldlol:

You seem to be at least fairly intelligent. Do this: in the next Lakers game thread go in and try to find one who thinks I am a Lakers/Kobe fan.

You didn't catch the irony of the troll comment. I don't think you are a troll. You are a gimmick/sock, though.


Ron Harper was the primary defender on Stockton in the Bulls-Jazz series, not Pippen. Pippen played great help D but Harper was the one constantly bodying up Stockton when he dribble the ball up and obstructing his view

The help D was the key to disrupting Utah's defense. Why do you think Sloan and the Jazz, along with the Pacers, were complaining about Pippen so much? They weren't complaining about Harper or Jordan. There is a reason for that...


t's unfair to act as if Pippen was doing all the work on defense in that series.

What irony. For our entire lives we have heard of Jordan doing all the work on offense and now that it has been shown with legit evidence that Pippen was by far the dominant player on defense suddenly it is a team achievement. Why jump through so many hoops?


Even if Pippen had more defensive impact then Jordan in that series, Jordan had the much bigger scoring impact and was simply the better player.

There is no "even if." Saying that is like saying "even if" Jordan had more scoring impact. Read those articles. Jordan isn't even mentioned regarding defense.

"Simply the better player." That isn't relevant. The better player does not allows win FMVP. Just look at two of the last three years.


e had 14 points in the 4th of game 2 and scored like 45 of Chicago's last 80 points in game 6 with Pippen out most of the game with a bad back.

Pippen's FMVP chances went down the tubes in Game 5. All I am saying is he was the front-runner after four games. I suppose it is a shame he took 7 charges from Malone alone in one game (again I ask, how many was Jordan taking?). Had he not done that he could have had a FMVP and idiots today would not be saying Pierce>Pippen because Pierce (21.5/6/4) even though Pippen's finals performances>Pierce's (21/9/8, 21/9/7, 21/8/8, etc. all with great D while we know about Pierce's D).


Another thing to note is that scoring will be the biggest outlier for determinong the finals mvp no matter what.

Sad but true.


Alot of those Jazz-Chicago games were close in the end and a jordan takeover or game winner was the difference maker in a win or loss for Chicago. Jordan had 3 game winners against Utah in that stretch: game 1 in 97, game 6 in 98

I want to say good post, although I disagree with some of it. Regarding "closing", that is another problem. If it weren't for Pippen's efforts the game wouldn't be close in the first place yet that is ignored. You mentioned Game 1 in 97'. Pippen had 21 second half points (29 total), took over the game in the middle of the 3rd quarter when the Chicago offense was so ineffective that they were setting screens for Dennis Rodman. He hit a clutch 3 with 70 seconds left. He had a bunch of fourth quarter points as well. He had something like 12 boards, 4 blocks, and 3 steals all in intense pain. Yet all people remember is Jordan's last shot (MJ had a great game too. It wasn't just one shot. Let me make that clear). That game was a great example of how they worked together as a duo.

Regarding "closing", Jordan was taking 90% of the shots at the end as usual. Of course he is going to score most of the points in the final few minutes. When Pippen got the ball he was very effective. Should Jordan deciding to take more shots in the final 3-4 minutes render what Pippen did to carry the team when the offense was struggling and when Jordan was resting for part of the time irrelevant?


It was? ;0 I beg to differ. The Jazz averages 101 points a game that season and had the most efficient offense in the league. The Bulls had the 9'th best offense, but the 3'rd best defence. The Jazz didn't score more then 88 points in any game, had one game where they scored 54 points and averages 80 PPG, 20 below their seasonal average. Defence won that title and stating otherwise is historical revision.

:applause:

There is a lot of historical revisionism regarding Pippen--all coming from fans of a certain retired player. Why? If the claims made regarding you-know-who are accurate there would be need for revionism that says Pippen never had a shot at FMVP, Pippen's D was no big deal, Pippen's D was barely more important than Harper or Jordan's, Pippen was never a top 5 player, etc.


Yes, its very easy to say that the best player is always the one who scored the most points, but in reality that is just not true because defence is equally as important as offense.

Great post. People always talk about "#1 option". Option for what? Scoring. They always leave that part out. Well, as Ron Artest noted in his Sporting News interview their are "#1 options" on defense too. Pippen was the "#1 option" on defense. Aside from MJ fans, everyone can agree Pippen was the team's best defender--probably the best in the league--from 96'-98'.


. If Pippen didn't get hurt, the bulls probably win the series in 5 and Pippen takes home the MVP. Its was not even controversial... prior to his injury that's what most everyone thought would happen.

I am glad you remember that. :cheers:


As RRock pointed out, this seems to really be turning into a debate between people who actually watched the series and people who looked up Jordan's scoring stats.

Well, I didn't say that. One guy didn't and just looked up scoring but the others watched it but have either forgotten what happened or are intentionally engaged in historical revisionism. Fortunately, all the facts from the period were put on the table, including from numerous objective sources, so readers can reach their own conclusions.


Yea, exactly. Jordan was the vehicle for the entire league. Nothing he did of note was under-rated, under-reported, or under-repeated, ever.

They don't realize that. They seem to think Jordan deserved every ounce of praise and hype he got. Look at the flu game. How come we never hear of the foot game that Pippen had in the game MJ owned Russell at the buzzer for the first time?


Not one normal player, but Pippen was not normal.

Sadly, many of them think he was. Pippen is considered by many to be the GOAT perimeter defender and 99% of people have him as the GOAT defensive SF. We aren't talking about Raja Bell here.


You saying carried is revision as well.

No. How can it be revisionism when it reflects what was being said at the time--by everyone from coaches, players, newspapers, to magazines (and major ones. I am not citing some paper from small town Kansas)? What we are doing is the exact opposite of revisionism.


I also stated that the FMVP is viewed as an offensive award and is often given to the best scorer.

There is no official criteria. As indiefan pointed out, if Pippen didn't get hurt and go 2-for-16 in Game 5 he would have won the FMVP. This is what was expected to happen. The Bulls were up 3-1 and the Bulls were expected to close out the series and if Pippen had a decent game he was expected to be the FMVP. After his poor game there was even an article in the New York Times saying Pippen let a FMVP slip away. Were they in on the big bad Kobe fan conspiracy to overrate Pippen? There are always exceptions to the rule and this looked like one time a defensive player was going to win the award. He was that good a defender! Speaking of D and FMVP, we all know Russell would have won a bunch if it existed when he played but your general point is true.


No he didn't. The evidence shows that technically the presence of Jordan cost Pippen 1 ppg at the most. Thats almost nothing. Why would the scoring spike occur in 96 or 97? When he's 31-32 as opposed to 29-30?

We went over this before. I showed you stats from about 8 players. Almost all of them had big spikes. Do it yourself. Search for some random players on bball reference--they have random players listed on the left side of the front page--and you will see the same thing 90% of the time so long as a player didn't suffer an injury. The only prominent exception I can think of other than Pippen is Shaq.

Why 96'? He was a better shooter for one. He was scoring around 21.5 ppg before getting hurt during the final fifth of the season. This was with the league leader in FGA on his team and a slower pace in 96' than 94'. I think it is self explanatory why that was his best scoring season until he got hurt. 96' was his best offensive season.

97' he started slow because of a myriad of injuries in 96' and then not having time off due to leading Dream Team III along with Hakeem. During the second half of he season he was at 21.3 or 21.4. Again, with lower pace and the league leader in FGA there.

The presence of MJ did not cost him 1 ppg at most. He improved 3.4 ppg from 93' to 94' after MJ retired. A better comparison is 95'. He was at 22 ppg when Jordan came back (9th or 10th in the league) and fell to a shade under 20 ppg when he came back. Jordan cost him 2 ppg even when he was rusty. His real impact was 2-3 ppg. This is where I got 24-25 ppg from.

Why does it even matter? Like I said, would anyone look at him differently if he scored 24 ppg once or twice?


I find it funny that 11 years after Pippen was a Bull we're arguing about Pippen's lack of recognition. That in itself shows he gets plenty of recognition.

No. It shows the historical revisionism going on with respect to him led by a certain faction (only these people do this). People today are saying Pippen was never a top 5 player, never had a shot a FMVP, could not lead a team as the "main man", saying someone like Gasol is as good as him, etc. Fortunately Simmons' book gave Pippen proper recognition and hopefully that stems some of the tide.


Pippen got the most recognition he could've playing with the Bulls. If he didn't play with the Bulls, he's probably about as recognized as someone like Drexler or Ewing.

It depends on how you define recognition. Yeah, in terms of publicity he did. However, in terms of accolades and recognition as a great player no. Jordan retires and he finishes 3rd in MVP voting. He had only one top 5 finish in the rest of his career. Read this thread. All the Pippen detractors have said 94' was his best season. 95' Pippen and 96' Pippen were on par with 94' Pippen and 97' Pippen only slightly inferior. So why does everyone think 94' was by far his best season? The answer is obvious.


And I agree, that team has a shot at winning a championship, but its kind of irrelevant, cause guess what? So did alot of teams.

:oldlol: come on. That team would be a run-of-the-mill championship contender? Those teams were winning 57, 64, 57, and 61 games from 95'-98'. This was with Kemp. Surely you agree Pippen>Kemp. 96' is particularly important. They were the second best team. However, take Pippen off the Bulls and the Bulls are no longer the best team. Seattle is.

[indiefan23]

Harper averaged 28 minutes per game in the 98 series and Stockton averaged 31 mpg. My point in mentioning him was that he was the primary defender on Stockton and had as much importance on disrupting the Jazz p & r then Pippen did. Harper would pick up on Stockton while he dribbled up court and would disrupt his motion. This would slow down the Jazz offense and pippen would then come as the help defender on the possible screener. They both had an important impact.

You saying carried is revision as well. Rodman held Malone to under 40% shooting (I will try posting the link later when I come back) in the periods he guarded him and would routunely shut him out in 4th quarters. It was a tem defensive effort and timely scoring from Jordan that led them to a 3-1 lead.


Why is it on ISH that people hear the word defense and think only of man to man/on ball defense? Pippen led that team defensively and while others were good defenders, sure, Pippen totally disrupted the entire team by always being in the right place at the right time.

How can you say I'm 'revising history' when we've quoted Sports Illustrated, who are involved in the writing of Sports History, saying the exact same things?


The 98 Bulls defense was extremely gritty and played a huge role in the series win and i'm not denying that at all but the Bulls needed Mj to gout there and score 30+ ppg. 3 of Chicago's 4 wins were close and went down the wire.

The bulls needed to score more points then the Jazz in 4 games to win, plain and simple. The Jazz were just a much better offensive team and the only way to win was make them the worse offensive team. That series was won by defense. They averaged 91 PPG vs Dream's rockets. 85 vs Robinson's spurs. And 104 vs Shaq's Lakers. Vs Pippen's Bulls, because he was the best defender on that team, they averaged 80 ppg and had a 54 point night.

Finals MVP is not designated as an offensive award at all any more then best actor/actress at the Oscars is designated as an award for playing a retard who speaks funny. I liked all the retard winners, I did, but there is no way in god's creation that Forrest Gump is a better movie then Pulp Fiction. I'm a bigger Jordan fan then you most likely are, but there is no way that Pippen's insane, epic defensive dismantling of the best offensive team in the league is in any way secondary in that 98 series.

[indiefan23]

I am no more of a troll than 95% of the NBA Forum.

Dude, 95% of ISH are totally trolls. ;0 Come on, I said I like you. And I do think you know your shizzle. But you do over-rate past stars loads... but we kind of approach evaluation from different perspectives so it's somewhat acceptable. Menh.


And Kobe did not have the same defensive impact as big man Shaq did (especially with def. 3 seconds) but he was a very capable shut down guy and defensive superstar. Inconsistent at times, but very capable unlike these past several years where he has lived off reputation. And RR is one of the top out of context statistcal crunchers here. Even if the modern fan were to go back and watch those games, they would still not understand the importance of Pippen because they either follow the ball handler all the time or only care about 1-1 iso scoring. Or both. Not everyone can make a proper helpside defensive stab like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XNfDxZ5Sm4) (7:50 mark) or lead a perfect fast break like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20ByBuATTyg) (0:40 mark).

What about Pippen's ridiculous ability to use his length to hedge and show? He could cover multiple passing lanes at once. 'n like, how many plays did Pippen's man get the ball because everyone thought he was open only to have that dude pass it back to his point cuz he actually was not open at all. Then the shot clock would be winding down and someone else would have to force something. That's the thing about Pippen's work on Stockton... Pippen affected Stockton's game without coming within 5 feet of him.

[Roundball_Rock]

What about Pippen's ridiculous ability to use his length to hedge and show? He could cover multiple passing lanes at once. 'n like, how many plays did Pippen's man get the ball because everyone thought he was open only to have that dude pass it back to his point cuz he actually was not open at all. Then the shot clock would be winding down and someone else would have to force something. That's the thing about Pippen's work on Stockton... Pippen affected Stockton's game without coming within 5 feet of him.


Finals MVP is not designated as an offensive award at all any more then best actor/actress at the Oscars is designated as an award for playing a retard who speaks funny. I liked all the retard winners, I did, but there is no way in god's creation that Forrest Gump is a better movie then Pulp Fiction. I'm a bigger Jordan fan then you most likely are, but there is no way that Pippen's insane, epic defensive dismantling of the best offensive team in

Good posting. Bill Russell would have won more FMVP's than anyone if the award existed when he played solely because of defense.

Here is what they were saying after Game 3. I guess Doug Collins was in on the vast Kobe conspiracy too?

"Scottie Pippen was a one-man wrecking crew. He totally disrupted Utah's set offense."

Watch from 3:30 on. He shows Pippen's great defense on Ostertag, Stockton, ruining the pick and roll of Stockton with Malone. NBC shows a graphic of Utah's pick and roll being shut down. It accounted for 50% of Utah's points in the regular season. Remember, they had the #1 offense in the league that year.

Game 1: 35 points (40%)
Game 2: 20 points (23%)
Game 3: 8 points (15%)

According to Collins this happened because of Scottie Pippen. Going from 50% to 23% and 15% had nothing to do with the Bulls winning?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0VjAr23siQ

Further in the clip another member of the conspiracy is revealed: Bob Costas. Damn. Et tu, Bob? Here we were thinking you were on MJ's nuts for all these years. Go to 7:00. He notes that Pippen scored 0 points in the second half--but it didn't matter. Why? His defense was so dominant.

NO ONE--not Sports Illustrated, not the Washington Post, not the New York Times, not the Miami Daily Herald, not the Philadelphia Inquirer, not Doug Collins, not Bob Costas, not Jack Ramsey, not Jerry Sloan, not Jeff Hornacek, not Karl Malone, not Phil Jackson, is even in passing talking about Jordan's defense or Harper's defense. Were all these people in on the conspiracy to lie about Pippen so Jordan goes from #1 all-time to #1 all-time (no one has said Pippen>Jordan so how the hell does giving Pippen proper credit diminish Jordan? Explain that one.) and Kobe goes from #10 all-time to #10 all-time all the way back in 1998 when Kobe was a 19 year old bench player?

[Abraham Lincoln]

Do this: in the next Lakers game thread go in and try to find one who thinks I am a Lakers/Kobe fan.

Lets hope not. :cheers:

And Abraham Lincoln is the only account I have used in well over a year.

[Abraham Lincoln]

What about Pippen's ridiculous ability to use his length to hedge and show? He could cover multiple passing lanes at once. 'n like, how many plays did Pippen's man get the ball because everyone thought he was open only to have that dude pass it back to his point cuz he actually was not open at all. Then the shot clock would be winding down and someone else would have to force something. That's the thing about Pippen's work on Stockton... Pippen affected Stockton's game without coming within 5 feet of him.
Now this is a proper post. 100% agreed.

[magnax1]

Pippen's defense was great, but was it even close to accounting for 14 more points than Jordan gave the Bulls on offense? (Bad way to say it, but I don't know how else to) Especially since Jordan was a top 10 or so defensive player in the league too? He must have caused at least 2/3 as much disruption on defense as Pippen did.

[Roundball_Rock]

Pippen's defense was great, but was it even close to accounting for 14 more points than Jordan gave the Bulls on offense? (Bad way to say it, but I don't know how else to) Especially since Jordan was a top 10 or so defensive player in the league too? He must have caused at least 2/3 as much disruption on defense as Pippen did.

Evidently it was. Not Sports Illustrated, not the Washington Post, not the New York Times, not the Miami Daily Herald, not the Philadelphia Inquirer, not Doug Collins, not Bob Costas, not Jack Ramsey, not Jerry Sloan, not Jeff Hornacek, not Karl Malone, not Phil Jackson, was even in passing talking about Jordan's defense or Harper's defense. Pippen's defense was the primary reason the Bulls were winning. Utah was the #1 offense in the NBA, had two top 25 players of all-time, averaged 103 ppg but thanks largely to Pippen they were reduced to 80 ppg in the finals.

The 14 points you cite is the final margin after Pippen disappeared offensively in Games 5 and 6 due to his back. Before that he was averaging something like 20-21 ppg.

2/3 of the disruption??????????? His impact on defense was so little that no one even bothered to mention it--both in the ECF (98' ECF was the closest the Bulls dynasty ever came to losing, not counting 95' of course) and the NBA finals. This was 35 year old 98' Jordan, not prime Jordan. He had great impact on offense and one can argue his impact on offense>Pippen's on defense but on defense Jordan was not anywhere close to Pippen by 98'. Why do you think Harper guarded Stockton, not Jordan? If Jordan was still a dominant defender why not put him on Stockton? Rodman give Malone fits, Harper guarded Stockton, Pippen played strong safety and killed the Jazz offense and Jordan did...?


Especially since Jordan was a top 10 or so defensive player in the league too?

That is like talking about Lebron and saying "Brandon Roy was a top 10 player in the league too".

There are two separate questions here:

1) Who was the front-runner for FMVP after four games (Bulls led 3-1)? The answer to that was Pippen at the time.
2) Who deserved the FMVP after six games? This is more debatable because Pippen was nonexistent offensively in the final two games. Still, a strong case can be made that he was more responsible than Jordan for 3 of the 4 Chicago wins.

Da_Realist, why aren't you speaking on this? You have mentioned a few times that Pippen had a good shot at FMVP in 97' before the flu game. What is your take on 97' and 98'?

Abe, I will say this: the more I learn about NBA history beyond the 90's and 00's the more I respect the older legends. I have Wilt's autobiography and plan on reading that down the road along with The Rivalry about Wilt vs. Russell.

[magnax1]

Evidently it was according to Sports Illustrated, not the Washington Post, not the New York Times, not the Miami Daily Herald, not the Philadelphia Inquirer, not Doug Collins, not Bob Costas, not Jack Ramsey, not Jerry Sloan, not Jeff Hornacek, not Karl Malone, not Phil Jackson, is even in passing talking about Jordan's defense or Harper's defense. The 14 points you cite is the final margin after Pippen disappeared offensively in Games 5 and 6 due to his back. Before that he was averaging 20 ppg.

2/3 of the disruption??????????? His impact on defense was so little no one even bothered to mention it. This was 35 year old 98' Jordan, not prime Jordan.

There are two separate questions here:

1) Who was the front-runner for FMVP after four games (Bulls led 3-1)? The answer to that was Pippen at the time.
2) Who deserved the FMVP after six games? This is more debatable because Pippen was nonexistent offensively in the final two games. Still, a strong case can be made that he was more responsible than Jordan for 3 of the 4 Chicago wins.

Da_Realist, why aren't you speaking on this? You have mentioned a few times that Pippen had a good shot at FMVP in 97' before the flu game. What is your take on 97' and 98'?

Abe, I will say this: the more I learn about NBA history beyond the 90's and 00's the more I respect the older legends. I have Wilt's autobiography and plan on reading that down the road along with The Rivalry about Wilt vs. Russell.
The fourteen point margin is Michael Jordan in all 6 games, and Scottie Pippen in the first four. Jordan averaged 34 ppg in the series, and pippen averaged 20 ppg in the first four games. Plus Pippen did not have half the impact that Jordan did in the clutch, and that really isn't debatable.

Also, Jordan was still widely considered a top 10 defender in the league in 98, he was on the all nba defensive team (which I usually hate to point out, because they usually have some terrible selections) and still was a great one on one defender, though his help defense suffered grandly compared to years before. Jordan did still have a very large impact on defense.

[indiefan23]

Pippen's defense was great, but was it even close to accounting for 14 more points than Jordan gave the Bulls on offense? (Bad way to say it, but I don't know how else to) Especially since Jordan was a top 10 or so defensive player in the league too? He must have caused at least 2/3 as much disruption on defense as Pippen did.

Well, the thing is Pippen got hurt after game 4 when they went up 3-1. It affected his shot a lot. By game 6 he was really hurting and only played 26 minutes. Through the first five games though, Pippen pretty much out played Jordan, especially defensively. MJ is still MJ and scored lots of points and was fantastic, but the bulls were winning cuz they had destroyed the Jazz's offense... not cuz MJ shot < 45% in the finals.

Personally, I think it's the single greatest/impacting defensive effort by a non center in the finals I've ever seen.

[indiefan23]

The fourteen point margin is Michael Jordan in all 6 games, and Scottie Pippen in the first four. Jordan averaged 34 ppg in the series, and pippen averaged 20 ppg in the first four games. Plus Pippen did not have half the impact that Jordan did in the clutch, and that really isn't debatable.

Also, Jordan was still widely considered a top 10 defender in the league in 98, he was on the all nba defensive team (which I usually hate to point out, because they usually have some terrible selections) and still was a great one on one defender, though his help defense suffered grandly compared to years before. Jordan did still have a very large impact on defense.

MJ was slipping by the finals in 98. It was obvious. He was getting points by craft, not domination. Jordan like Kobe now too got All Defence nods on name recognition. I don't get how Pippen had half the impact in the clutch when he was raping the Utah offense of it's efficiency and also, Pippen was still hitting huge baskets at the ends of games. It's not like he just stopped scoring and gets no credit.

[indiefan23]

Pippen's defense was great, but was it even close to accounting for 14 more points than Jordan gave the Bulls on offense? (Bad way to say it, but I don't know how else to) Especially since Jordan was a top 10 or so defensive player in the league too? He must have caused at least 2/3 as much disruption on defense as Pippen did.

As I stated earlier... Jordan was showing legit signs of slipping by the 98 finals. For sure. He was still MJ, he was still the GOAT, he could still take over games, and still could defensively own you. But he was not all those things for every minute of every game anymore. He was described as "conserving energy on defence so he could exert it on offense." It was a kind way of saying "the goat doesn't have the gas to go 100% both ways anymore." It made sense. Defence is harder work then offense. MJ had Pippen to carry defence. It won them their last ring. I think he made the right decision. When it comes to winning for MJ, its only what I'd expect. I don't think Jordan gave a damn about the MVP award.

[Roundball_Rock]

The fourteen point margin is Michael Jordan in all 6 games, and Scottie Pippen in the first four. Jordan averaged 34 ppg in the series, and pippen averaged 20 ppg in the first four games.

Jordan averaged 34 ppg after 6 games, after picking up some of Pippen's slack in the final two. What was the margin after four games?


Plus Pippen did not have half the impact that Jordan did in the clutch, and that really isn't debatable.

Game 1: Utah 88, Chicago 85
Game 2: Chicago 93, Utah 88
Game 3: Chicago 96, Utah 54
Game 4: Chicago 86, Utah 82

Half the impact on clutch? Yeah, not on offense. What about the other half of basketball? Look at those margins. They were close games. Pippen discombobulating the Utah offense for 40+ minutes a night (just like he did with Indiana in the ECF. Why were the Pacers crying only about Pippen and not the defense of Jordan?)had nothing to do with it? It was all about MJ dominating the ball in the final 3 minutes?


Also, Jordan was still widely considered a top 10 defender in the league in 98, he was on the all nba defensive team (which I usually hate to point out, because they usually have some terrible selections) and still was a great one on one defender, though his help defense suffered grandly compared to years before. Jordan did still have a very large impact on defense.

Irrelevant. We are talking about the NBA finals, that is impact over a short period against a specific team. No one even mentioned Jordan's impact in the finals. Why? If what you say is true how come no one at the time realized it? What exactly did he do on defense? Rodman guarded Malone, Harper guarded Stockton, Pippen played safety and shut down the passing lanes. What was Jordan doing? Jordan was such a great defender that they put Harper on Stockton?

Even if we accept your claims there is a big difference between the two. Brandon Roy is top 10. Lebron is top 1-2. Are their impacts close? Hell, let's look at Jordan vs. 91'-93' Pippen. Pippen was top 10 overall. Was his impact close to that of Jordan?

Jordan getting on the all-D team was a joke btw just like Kobe being on it last year was. If his name was Michael Smith he wouldn't have been on it, certainly not the first team.


MJ is still MJ and scored lots of points and was fantastic, but the bulls were winning cuz they had destroyed the Jazz's offense... not cuz MJ shot < 45% in the finals.

Personally, I think it's the single greatest/impacting defensive effort by a non center in the finals I've ever seen.


:applause:


Jordan like Kobe now too got All Defence nods on name recognition. I don't get how Pippen had half the impact in the clutch when he was raping the Utah offense of it's efficiency and also, Pippen was still hitting huge baskets at the ends of games. It's not like he just stopped scoring and gets no credit.

:applause:

[AirJordan23]

MJ was slipping by the finals in 98. It was obvious. He was getting points by craft, not domination. Jordan like Kobe now too got All Defence nods on name recognition. I don't get how Pippen had half the impact in the clutch when he was raping the Utah offense of it's efficiency and also, Pippen was still hitting huge baskets at the ends of games. It's not like he just stopped scoring and gets no credit.

Who do you think deserved to be an on the all defensive team over him? I'd say Payton was the only guard who had more impact on defense than him. And I don't think I'm being biased either. Jordan was not as good of a defender as he was in the early 90s compared to the late 90s but he still had a significant amount of defensive impact. I guess Eddie Jones could be the other guard over him? Regardless, he was at least deserving of a second team nomination. And I do realize he had defensive studs in Pippen and Harper to guard some of the premier offensive players in the league. But, MJ had the most load to carry on offense. And he was still having great defensive games/plays. MJ could still play elite defense at times and when needed to. He couldn't roam around and get back in time as well as he could in his earlier days but the impact was still there. Just not as consistently. You can't expect a guy in his mid 30s to carry all the offense load while playing exceptional defense. It's really hard to maintain that level since it takes a lot of energy to do that. Jordan could do it from '87 to about '92 but he was past his athletic prime in '98 and had to save up energy.

And like I mentioned before, there were certain games from the second three-peat team that showcase MJ's defense. There's a Raptors game from '98 where he hit a fadeaway J to win the game (absolutely disrupted T.O's offense and locked up a young Chauncey and Christie), his defense on Strickland in the '97 playoffs and the 1998 ECF is also a good example of MJ's defensive impact. I think Strickland was held to 42% shooting which was well below his season average. You could also take a look at what the opposing 2s averaged against him in the '97 and '98 playoffs. Steve Smith put up 18 PPG on 32% shooting. Think Smith was talkin' trash to MJ so MJ used that as motivation. Not sure about it since I haven't watched that series in 3-4 years. Hornacek was held well below his season averages in the finals.

[Da_Realist]

Who do you think deserved to be an on the all defensive team over him? I'd say Payton was the only guard who had more impact on defense than him. And I don't think I'm being biased either. Jordan was not as good of a defender as he was in the early 90s compared to the late 90s but he still had a significant amount of defensive impact. I guess Eddie Jones could be the other guard over him? Regardless, he was at least deserving of a second team nomination. And I do realize he had defensive studs in Pippen and Harper to guard some of the premier offensive players in the league. But, MJ had the most load to carry on offense. And he was still having great defensive games/plays. MJ could still play elite defense at times and when needed to. He couldn't roam around and get back in time as well as he could in his earlier days but the impact was still there. Just not as consistently. You can't expect a guy in his mid 30s to carry all the offense load while playing exceptional defense. It's really hard to maintain that level since it takes a lot of energy to do that. Jordan could do it from '87 to about '92 but he was past his athletic prime in '98 and had to save up energy.

And like I mentioned before, there were certain games from the second three-peat team that showcase MJ's defense. There's a Raptors game from '98 where he hit a fadeaway J to win the game (absolutely disrupted T.O's offense and locked up a young Chauncey and Christie), his defense on Strickland in the '97 playoffs and the 1998 ECF is also a good example of MJ's defensive impact. I think Strickland was held to 42% shooting which was well below his season average. You could also take a look at what the opposing 2s averaged against him in the '97 and '98 playoffs. Steve Smith put up 18 PPG on 32% shooting. Think Smith was talkin' trash to MJ so MJ used that as motivation. Not sure about it since I haven't watched that series in 3-4 years. Hornacek was held well below his season averages in the finals.

Jordan is just a figment of your imagination. He was created by the media to increase the marketing of the game. His MVP's, Finals MVP's, Defensive honors and impact on the game and his team are all questioned by knowledgeable fans that weren't old enough to watch the games so they are immune to the media brainwashing to which we have been subjected.

What you think you saw, you didn't see.

[Roundball_Rock]

Jordan is just a figment of your imagination. He was created by the media to increase the marketing of the game. His MVP's, Finals MVP's, Defensive honors and impact on the game and his team are all questioned by knowledgeable fans that weren't old enough to watch the games so they are immune to the media brainwashing to which we have been subjected.

What you think you saw, you didn't see.

:roll: Pippen supporters are here presenting hard evidence and this is the kind of stuff we see from Jordan fans in response.

Jordan benefited from the biggest marketing campaign in the history of sports. That had no impact on his perception? I guess you also believe it is just a coincidence that the candidate with the biggest budget wins nearly every time? There are some who came out the blue to beat well-established figures, such as former governors or senators, even in primaries solely because they had the biggest budget and hence the biggest marketing machine. Jordan the player was created on the court. Jordan the icon was created by Nike--which built itself from irrelevancy to dominance solely through marketing Jordan--Coke, McDonald's, Hanes, Gatorade, Rayovac, Ballpark, Wheaties, Bijan, MCI, Wilson, Oakley, AMF Bowling, CBS, Chevy, Warner Brothers, Spike Lee movies, clever jingles, ESPN and more. As of 1999, Nike alone had pumped $5 million into marketing Jordan.

You complain about not watching games yet have not said a word about the games in this thread (assuming you watched the 98' finals). Why? :oldlol: @ you invoking the "watched games" thing in this thread. It is Pippen fans in this thread who are the ones who watched, or at least remembered, the games. We have cited games, everyone involved in the games, numerous newspapers, magazines and the responses in the face of overwhelming evidence are "but Pippen did not dominate on defense", "Jordan was as good on defense", "Pippen had no case for FMVP", etc. Yet your response is to claim Pippen fans didn't see the games? :wtf:



And I do realize he had defensive studs in Pippen and Harper to guard some of the premier offensive players in the league. But, MJ had the most load to carry on offense. And he was still having great defensive games/plays.

No excuse. Kobe has great games too on defense when he feels like it but he didn't deserve to be on the first team. Jordan was old. He had to conserve energy. He could not go 100% on both ends like he could in his youth. This is why I believe Lincoln has argued sharing of responsibilities was key during the second threepeat. Certainly author David Halberstam, who knows more about the inner workings of the team than anyone here, believed that was the case. Codependency was the term used by the Jordan hagiographer.

Who deserved it? Mookie Blaylock. He probably deserved to be on the second team but Mookie should have been on the first--where he was before Jordan came back and took his spot. Still, what are we talking about? So what if Jordan was the 8th or 10th best defender in the league when compared to the 1st or 2nd best? Don't you guys see the irony here? Now all of a sudden the impact of 8th best=1st? That means in 92' and 93' for sure that...

[magnax1]

Jordan averaged 34 ppg after 6 games, after picking up some of Pippen's slack in the final two. What was the margin after four games?



Game 1: Utah 88, Chicago 85
Game 2: Chicago 93, Utah 88
Game 3: Chicago 96, Utah 54
Game 4: Chicago 86, Utah 82

Half the impact on clutch? Yeah, not on offense. What about the other half of basketball? Look at those margins. They were close games. Pippen discombobulating the Utah offense for 40+ minutes a night (just like he did with Indiana in the ECF. Why were the Pacers crying only about Pippen and not the defense of Jordan?)had nothing to do with it? It was all about MJ dominating the ball in the final 3 minutes?



Irrelevant. We are talking about the NBA finals, that is impact over a short period against a specific team. No one even mentioned Jordan's impact in the finals. Why? If what you say is true how come no one at the time realized it? What exactly did he do on defense? Rodman guarded Malone, Harper guarded Stockton, Pippen played safety and shut down the passing lanes. What was Jordan doing? Jordan was such a great defender that they put Harper on Stockton?

Even if we accept your claims there is a big difference between the two. Brandon Roy is top 10. Lebron is top 1-2. Are their impacts close? Hell, let's look at Jordan vs. 91'-93' Pippen. Pippen was top 10 overall. Was his impact close to that of Jordan?

Jordan getting on the all-D team was a joke btw just like Kobe being on it last year was. If his name was Michael Smith he wouldn't have been on it, certainly not the first team.

1-Saying that people were talking about Pippens impact more than Jordan's impact is just insane. One of the worst arguements I've heard. Maybe he had a better impact, but nobody was saying Pippen had a larger impact.
2-There is a huge difference between Brandon Roy and Lebron James. You can say there is a minor difference between Kobe-LBJ-Wade but after those three there is a huge fall off. Same with Jordan vs. Pippen. Not even close. You could say Shaq vs Jordan was close or maybe 97 Hill vs. Jordan was close, but not Pippen vs. Jordan.
3-Jordan's defense was barely a drop worse than Pippen's with three minutes left in a close game. He was good to average throughout the rest, but Jordan is one of the best clutch players ever, not just on offense. Who stole the ball from malone in the finals seconds? Jordan (though anybody could tear apart Malone in the clutch)
EDIT: and jordan Averaged 32 ppg in the first 4 games, compared to 34 through all 6. Barely a difference