Jordan 69 pt game vs Kobe 81 point game

[xxxSuperStar]

We all know Kobe scored 81, but take a look at Kobe's 81 point game vs. Jordan's 69 point game vs the Cavs on 3/28/90

Kobe 81 points (28-46 63% shooting), 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 steal, 1 block, 3 turnover

Jordan 69 points(23-37 62% shooting), 18 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals, 1 block, 2 turnovers

Which is more impressive? I have to say Jordans. 18 rebounds while scoring 69 points is unheard of.

BTW, this game is on ESPN classic for you younger whippersnappers who have no idea how good Jordan was. Actually, there ESPN classic is running great NBA games all day today.

[RidonKs]

Yeah, Jordan's takes it, just because of those 18 rebounds. Not only is it unheard of in general, but for a guard? That's insane. But it's not like it's miles better performance. Kobe's 81 point showing is pretty much as close to Jordans 69/18 as you can get without actually doing better.

[Roll]

jordan could score 200 pts if he wanted to

[RidonKs]

jordan could score 200 pts if he wanted to

I agree. 200 points, 85 rebounds, 60 assists, it's all child's play for MJ. He could hit a 6 pointer if he wanted to, he just doesn't want to show anyone up.

[Roll]

I agree. 200 points, 85 rebounds, 60 assists, it's all child's play for MJ. He could hit a 6 pointer if he wanted to, he just doesn't want to show anyone up.

yep you said it

:banana:

[VCDrivesAPorscheToWork]

Prime Jordan in today's league would average 50 PPG because of the handcheck

[Fatal9]

The game went to overtime so of course his stats will be inflated. Don't be stupid, Kobe's 81 points in regulation to bring his team back from a 20+ point deficit is far more impressive.

[ACCBaller1403]

What's harder? Getting an extra 12 points on 9 more shots or getting an additional 12 rebounds, 4 assists, and a steal? Jordan's is better, not to take anything away from Kobe but honestly if Jordan took 9 more shots he'd have a darn good chance to pass 81.

[Sasquatch Testes]

Michael Jordan had a more impressive game.

[Roll]

The game went to overtime so of course his stats will be inflated. Don't be stupid, Kobe's 81 points in regulation to bring his team back from a 20+ point deficit is far more impressive.

jordan could outplay kobe with one finger

[BradMiller52]

MJ's 69/18 game is better IMO.

[Xplicit]

Jordan x1000.

How can say with a straight face that Kobe's was more impressive? You people saying that are the same ones complaining about the rules today against defending wing-players. You complain about how guys like Wade and Lebron have it so easy nowadays without handchecking.. yet you totally fail to mention that Jordan scored his 69 with guys physically abusing him all game. Kobe would NEVER score 69, let alone 81, in Jordan's day with the same handchecking rules. NEVER

[NBAEMoreira022]

are you trying to say that MJ's 69 was better than Kobe's 81? go to the store and buy something that costs 81 dollars but instead only pay 69 dollars and 18 pennies and see if the clerk thinks its better than 81

[MaxFly]

Bryant's 81 was more impressive offensively, but it's obvious that Jordan's was the better all around game.

[NBAEMoreira022]

Bryant's 81 was more impressive offensively, but it's obvious that Jordan's was the better all around game.

agree to disagree, when in rome.

[LakersDynasty]

Bryant's 81 was more impressive offensively, but it's obvious that Jordan's was the better all around game.
You beat me to it.

[Yao Ming]

Michael Jordan

[MaxFly]

agree to disagree, when in rome.

You believe that Bryant had the better all around game?

[Xplicit]

are you trying to say that MJ's 69 was better than Kobe's 81? go to the store and buy something that costs 81 dollars but instead only pay 69 dollars and 18 pennies and see if the clerk thinks its better than 81

Handchecking. Ever heard of it?

And comparing rebounds to pennies makes you sound retarded. You're saying a rebound is only worth .01 of a scored point?

[Brunch@Five]

considering the zone Kobe was in in the 2nd half, it's no stretch to say that he'd have gotten to 90 points in overtime. Also, Kobe singlehandedly erased a 20 point deficit and outscored the opponent in the second half.
I don't care how many rebounds you get, it doesn't compare to what Kobe achieved that game

[NBAEMoreira022]

You believe that Bryant had the better all around game?

no Jordan had the better all around game Kobe just scored and he had like what 2 assists?

[NBAEMoreira022]

Handchecking. Ever heard of it?

And comparing rebounds to pennies makes you sound retarded. You're saying a rebound is only worth .01 of a scored point?

that was not the point :hammerhead:

[Roll]

considering the zone Kobe was in in the 2nd half, it's no stretch to say that he'd have gotten to 90 points in overtime. Also, Kobe singlehandedly erased a 20 point deficit and outscored the opponent in the second half.
I don't care how many rebounds you get, it doesn't compare to what Kobe achieved that game

you can suck kobe's **** all day sis. like i said jordan could score 1,000 pts if he wanted to. he just wasnt as much a ballhog as kobe

[Xplicit]

that was not the point :hammerhead:

Yeah the point was you totally ignore the subject of handchecking.

Guys like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc. score 40 so often noawadays, it's almost not even news anymore when they do it. In the 90's, there werent even half-as-many 40-point occurences.


Bottom line:
Jordan getting abused all game long and still scoring 69, with 18 rebounds >>>>>> Kobe getting 81 with these corny handcheck rules.

[MaxFly]

no Jordan had the better all around game Kobe just scored and he had like what 2 assists?

I didn't understand what you meant when you said "agree to disagree, when in rome."

[junkifunki]

are you trying to say that MJ's 69 was better than Kobe's 81? go to the store and buy something that costs 81 dollars but instead only pay 69 dollars and 18 pennies and see if the clerk thinks its better than 81


I see you like to use analogies. How bout this?

One scored point = one dollar. Handchecking = Inflation.

Just like you can buy a gallon of gas for a mere dollar in the 80's/90's, you have to pay about 3 dollars now to buy that same gallon. A dollar today isn't worth as much as a dollar yesterday. Just like a scored point today isn't the same as a scored point years ago. Handchecking makes it harder to score just like inflation makes it harder to buy stuff with that dollar...

so yes, Jordan's 69 dollars hack then is worth more Kobe's 81 now :D

[Brunch@Five]

just wondering .. have any of you guys actually seen MJs 69 point game? because you're all talking out of your asses when saying that he was "getting abused" all night. He was not, he wasn't even guarded harder than Kobe at all.

[xxxSuperStar]

Everyone should turn on espn classic and watch the game.

[Xplicit]

just wondering .. have any of you guys actually seen MJs 69 point game? because you're all talking out of your asses when saying that he was "getting abused" all night. He was not, he wasn't even guarded harder than Kobe at all.

The question is: HAVE YOU?

I'm not going to lie. I did not witness Jordan's 69 point game. But I did watch A LOT of basketball back then, and I saw how defenders guarded Jordan and other good wing-players. Guys had their hands and forearms all over them. Today, if you even breathed on Kobe the wrong way, they call a foul

[Indian guy]

MJ.

Better overall numbers(18 rebs, 6 assists, 4 stls and 1 blk) against a playoff team.

[NBAEMoreira022]

I see you like to use analogies. How bout this?

One scored point = one dollar. Handchecking = Inflation.

Just like you can buy a gallon of gas for a mere dollar in the 80's/90's, you have to pay about 3 dollars now to buy that same gallon. A dollar today isn't worth as much as a dollar yesterday. Just like a scored point today isn't the same as a scored point years ago. Handchecking makes it harder to score just like inflation makes it harder to buy stuff with that dollar...

so yes, Jordan's 69 dollars hack then is worth more Kobe's 81 now :D

:applause: Ok so I see what your saying .. trying to look smart therefore making me look stupid :hammerhead: good point but if Kobe played in MJ's day he would never have done what he does now? LeBron, DWADE still drive to the rim where its still physical and your going to get slammed to the floor just like in the 80s 90s so what about the handchecking

[Xplicit]

Totally forgot about that too!

MJ did it in the playoffs. Much more impressive. Kobe against the Toronto craptors in a much less meaningful game

[Targus]

geez, MJ's is way better. give bibby 46 shots he can probably score 81 too.

[MaxFly]

Again, for those who have never seen the 69 point game, ESPN Classic is showing it at 7pm EST.

[LakersDynasty]

Let's not forget Kobe also scored 62 in 3 quarters and outscored an NBA Finals team.

62 in 3 quarters or 69 in overtime?

[lakers-city]

i think kobe's game against dallas was better than the one against toronto because it was against one hell of a team.

[Roll]

Let's not forget Kobe also scored 62 in 3 quarters and outscored an NBA Finals team.

62 in 3 quarters or 69 in overtime?

i can see kobe's **** all over your face. BALLHOG!

[Roll]

by the way **** = d!ck

[Roll]

and d!ck = ****

[LakersDynasty]

i can see kobe's **** all over your face. BALLHOG!
STFU you ****ing troll!

[Brunch@Five]

Totally forgot about that too!

MJ did it in the playoffs. Much more impressive. Kobe against the Toronto craptors in a much less meaningful game

you sir have absolutely no clue :banghead:

Jordan scored 63 in the playoffs, a double-overtime lossagainst . He scored 69 in the regular season against Cleveland.

And yes, I have seen both games (as I own the Ultimate Jordan DVD), and there is no way that you can say with a straight face that Jordan faced far better defense/better defenders.

But as you have not seen MJs game, you have no right to post in this thread. :no:

[Prezwoodz]

MJ was way more impressive in scoring his. The rebounds just make it a no contest.

[Knoe Itawl]

Yeah the point was you totally ignore the subject of handchecking.

Guys like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc. score 40 so often noawadays, it's almost not even news anymore when they do it. In the 90's, there werent even half-as-many 40-point occurences.


Bottom line:
Jordan getting abused all game long and still scoring 69, with 18 rebounds >>>>>> Kobe getting 81 with these corny handcheck rules.

Bottom line.

Anyone who thinks Kobe's OVERALL game was better than Jordan's is just ridiculous.

18 rebounds in a game where you scored 69 points?

Insane

[Knoe Itawl]

double post

[Knoe Itawl]

Wow, Kobe Groupies think Bryant's was more impressive while everyone else thinks Jordan's was.

SHOCKING!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Targus]

kevin martin's 15 points in less than 6 minutes yesterday owns them all!!! :D

[Brunch@Five]

Bottom line.

Anyone who thinks Kobe's OVERALL game was better than Jordan's is just ridiculous.

18 rebounds in a game where you scored 69 points?

Insane

sure, the individual overall performance may be better.

However, Kobe brought his team back from -20, outscored the opposing team, and didn't even need an overtime to A score 81 and B win the game.
Scoring 69 and getting 18 rebounds, but you're still nearly losing to a non-elite team? Not a good sign.

In terms of impact, Kobe's game was far better than any game I've ever seen.

[Xplicit]

i think kobe's game against dallas was better than the one against toronto because it was against one hell of a team.

One hell of a team? or one hell of an offense? Dallas' offense has nothing to do with Kobe abusing Dallas' shiiitty defenders

[Brunch@Five]

One hell of a team? or one hell of an offense? Dallas' offense has nothing to do with Kobe abusing Dallas' shytty defenders

Dallas had one of the best defenses in the league last year, dumbass :hammerhead:

[XxNeXuSxX]

For guard to grab 18 boards in a game is absolutely crazy, combine that with 69 points? Yeah that is more impressive.

[Xplicit]

One of the best team defenses. They don't have any great one-on-one stoppers. Numerically, Dallas may been one of the better D's last year, but opposing swingmen can still carve them up. As evidenced by Wade singlehandedly eating them up in the Finals and shiiitting them out..

[LakersDynasty]

Adrian Griffin is a top 10 perimeter defender in this league!

[Brunch@Five]

One of the best team defenses. They don't have any great one-on-one stoppers. Numerically, Dallas may been one of the better D's last year, but opposing swingmen can still carve them up. As evidenced by Wade singlehandedly eating them up in the Finals and shiiitting them out..

And the cavs had who? Craig Ehlo? :roll:

also, doesn't the name "Adrian Griffin" remind you of some pretty decent defensive stopper?

[Xplicit]

Adrian Griffin is starting to age. He's not the defender he was 2-3 years ago. How many minutes a game does he actually play any more?

[Xplicit]

And the cavs had who? Craig Ehlo? :roll:



Why are you even going to pretend like you know anything about the Cavs back then? :rolleyes:

[Brunch@Five]

Bruce Bowen is lik 36 and still considered a top3 peremiter defender. You don't become a bad defender when getting older


Why are you even going to pretend like you know anything about the Cavs back then?

you pretend to know how MJ was defended that game, but in the same breath are admitting that you haven't even seen the game. Do I smell hypocrit?

[LakersDynasty]

Adrian Griffin is starting to age. He's not the defender he was 2-3 years ago. How many minutes a game does he actually play any more?
Nothing to do with age. Dallas just has a deep team. He played a lot of minutes whenever Dallas faced a team with a great perimeter player.

[lakers-city]

Adrian Griffin is a top 10 perimeter defender in this league!

he sure proved it against kobe and wade this year.

[IGGYIVERSON]

in all honesty, watching David Robinson win the scoring title was more fun than watching both Kobe and MJ. i'm lucky enough to have watched all 3 games (not in person)

guy needed 69 points to win the scoring title on the last day of the season......he answered with 71 points (26-41 fg).

he shouldve gone for more after he got it.

[lakers-city]

One hell of a team? or one hell of an offense? Dallas' offense has nothing to do with Kobe abusing Dallas' shiiitty defenders

the mavs made the finals, they beat the defending champions on their own home and then beat the suns who were great too.

06 mavericks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the cavs jordan scored 69 against.

[Xplicit]

you pretend to know how MJ was defended that game, but in the same breath are admitting that you haven't even seen the game. Do I smell hypocrit?

Bullshyt. I didn't pretend anything. I even admitted I didn't see the actual 69-point game. You don't have to see that one game to see how defenders were defending MJ back then, dumbass.

[xxxSuperStar]

sure, the individual overall performance may be better.

However, Kobe brought his team back from -20, outscored the opposing team, and didn't even need an overtime to A score 81 and B win the game.
Scoring 69 and getting 18 rebounds, but you're still nearly losing to a non-elite team? Not a good sign.

In terms of impact, Kobe's game was far better than any game I've ever seen.

You are contradicting yourself. The Cavs were actually a team that was over .500 that year, what was the Raptors record last year? While that Cavs team was not a great defensive team, it was better defensively in almost every single aspect over last year's Raptors and the junk that was guarding Kobe.

Kobe had an impressive 81, I just think 69 points on the same shooting percentage AND 18 rebounds and six assists is more impressive.

Anyways, the Jordan game starts in 1 minute. Watch and then discuss more.

[shawnkempslovechild]

Again, for those who have never seen the 69 point game, ESPN Classic is showing it at 7pm EST.
Thanks for the heads up.

[Xplicit]

*****, I dont get ESPN classic :cry:

[IGGYIVERSON]

And the cavs had who? Craig Ehlo? :roll:

also, doesn't the name "Adrian Griffin" remind you of some pretty decent defensive stopper?

its a shame that the young kids hate on Craig Ehlo. how much do you know about his game??? oh thats right...just the Jordan shot. :rollingeyes:

Ehlo would be a GREAT role player in today's game. he'd start for pretty much any team in today's game. he wasnt a bad defender at all either. who the hell can guard prime MJ???

in his prime he averaged 13,5,and 4. if he played in today's game those numbers would be even higher.

[lakers-city]

who the hell can guard prime MJ???


joe dumars.

[Brunch@Five]

You are contradicting yourself. The Cavs were actually a team that was over .500 that year, what was the Raptors record last year? While that Cavs team was not a great defensive team, it was better defensively in almost every single aspect over last year's Raptors and the junk that was guarding Kobe.

Kobe had an impressive 81, I just think 69 points on the same shooting percentage AND 18 rebounds and six assists is more impressive.

Anyways, the Jordan game starts in 1 minute. Watch and then discuss more.

I'm not contradicting myself. By no means was I saying that the Cavs were worse than the Raps or anything. Just that I'd expect a great player having the best game of his life not needing OT to win a game against a mediocre ballclub.

Kobe's 81 caused a near 40-point-swing in favour of the Lakers, making the Lakers win comfortably with the 2nd best player (Odom) being off and playing horribly all night.

[IGGYIVERSON]

joe dumars.

Dumars did the best job on MJ but everyone knows Jordan burned him for 40+ quite a few times.

i just laugh when people make fun of Craig Ehlo. he'd be better than half the league today.

[Brunch@Five]

its a shame that the young kids hate on Craig Ehlo. how much do you know about his game??? oh thats right...just the Jordan shot. :rollingeyes:

Ehlo would be a GREAT role player in today's game. he'd start for pretty much any team in today's game. he wasnt a bad defender at all either. who the hell can guard prime MJ???

in his prime he averaged 13,5,and 4. if he played in today's game those numbers would be even higher.


neither do I hate on Ehlo, nor am I a young kid. From what I've seen of Craig Ehlo, he's not a better defender than Adrian Griffin or Josh Howard.

[MaxFly]

Ehlo would be a GREAT role player in today's game. he'd start for pretty much any team in today's game. he wasnt a bad defender at all either. who the hell can guard prime MJ???

in his prime he averaged 13,5,and 4. if he played in today's game those numbers would be even higher.

You have to be consistent. You can't say that Ehlo would have been a great role player and then say that he would have averaged better than 13, 5 and 4. That's a second or third option...

[IGGYIVERSON]

You have to be consistent. You can't say that Ehlo would have been a great role player and then say that he would have averaged better than 13, 5 and 4. That's a second or third option...

in today's game, he's definitely a legit 3rd option.....at least early 90s Ehlo is.

[MaxFly]

in today's game, he's definitely a legit 3rd option.....at least early 90s Ehlo is.

Well if so, you can't say that he would be a role player. A thrid option and a role player aren't consistent descriptions.

[elinss86]

plus, jordan did it against much better competition. kobe did it against the hopeless raptors

[lakers-city]

yea, sure the cavs were completely owning the league :rolleyes:

[XxNeXuSxX]

yea, sure the cavs were completely owning the league :rolleyes:

I don't think anyone said they were, but they were a playoff caliber team in a much slower game.

[lakers-city]

being a playoffs caliber team in the east doesnt mean much, it never has.

[junkifunki]

You're insane. You claim you've been watching basketball since the 80's and say some stupid shat like that? The East have owned the West for many stretches in the last 20 years.

[lakers-city]

the bulls aside the west has COMPLETELY dominated the lame east.

lakers have 8 championships since 1980.

houston has 2

spurs have 3

since 1999 to 2005 the lakers and spurs won 6 of 7 championships. in the 90's (jordan's era of dominance the west won 3 rings as well) in the 80's the lakers (western powerhouse) had 5 rings and 9 finals appearences.


russell's era side the east has always been weaker than the west, i dont see how that is even debateable

and this isnt about championships, this is about teams, the east has always had less strong teams than the west which is why bad teams make the playoffs, the bulls once made the playoffs with a 30-52 record for christs sake, thats how weak the east has been for the last 2 1/2 decades.

[junkifunki]

Yeah, but you're simply looking at Finals winners. Miami just won the title, but you wouldn't say the East was better than the West this year, would you?

The East have had more quality teams from the late 80's all the way to the late 90's. It's not just the Bulls. The championship Pistons of the early 90's were a quality team. Same with the Pat Riley Knicks all the way through the 90's. Teams that make the playoffs and go deep in the playoffs every year.

[junkifunki]

Since you like looking at Finals winners so much.... Just remember: If Jordan didn't retire for baseball, the East would've ran a decade of championships (from the Bad Boy Pistons to what would've been 8 straight rings for Chicago) without the West winning one.

[lakers-city]

that is bs and cant be proved, the olajuwon-led rockets matched up damn well to the bulls.

[Fatal9]

Since 1980, East has won 14 times and West has won 13 times. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Shepseskaf]

06 mavericks >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the cavs jordan scored 69 against.
Er.... no. Not quite.

1990 Cavs
G - Mark Price
G- Craig Ehlo
F- Larry Nance
F- Hot Rod Williams
C- Brad Daugherty

Bench: Winston Bennett, Chucky Brown

I'll take the 1990 Cavs vs. the '05-'06 Mavs any day. The Cavs had size, speed, defense, very good point guard play, good ball movement. I would love to see Dirk try to get off with Nance on him.

EDIT: I have both games on DVD and watched them back-to-back recently. Hands-down, Jordan's was the more impressive performance. Not to diminish what Kobe did, but basically he was basically just shooting all night. Jordan actually played defense, grabbed rebounds, etc. When you watch the games its real clear who the better player was. And I'm not a Kobe-hater, just acknowledging the truth.

[picc84]

Jordan x1000.

How can say with a straight face that Kobe's was more impressive? You people saying that are the same ones complaining about the rules today against defending wing-players. You complain about how guys like Wade and Lebron have it so easy nowadays without handchecking.. yet you totally fail to mention that Jordan scored his 69 with guys physically abusing him all game. Kobe would NEVER score 69, let alone 81, in Jordan's day with the same handchecking rules. NEVER

Because Mj had 5 extra minutes to further increase his stats.

[picc84]

MJ.

Better overall numbers(18 rebs, 6 assists, 4 stls and 1 blk) against a playoff team.

What about 62 in 3 quarters against the WC champs? :confusedshrug:

[XxNeXuSxX]

What about 62 in 3 quarters against the WC champs? :confusedshrug:


You can do the same thing for Jordan, bring up his other games, but this thread is just comparing these 2 .

[picc84]

Sure. But he acted as if Kobe couldnt do it to a playoff team. When he did arguably better to the WC champions. It completely invalidates the argument "but it was the raptors".

[Inspector Rick]

Too bad MJ didnt score one more bucket. 71 sounds like so much more than 69.

[geeWiz15]

yo someone had this analogy earlier on that comparing Kobe's 82 to Jordan's 69/18 to paying with 82 dollars versus paying with 69 dollars and 18 cents when you buy something. And I'd just like to say to whoever made that analogy.. that is positively the worst analogy in the history of human civilization. it is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start so I won't. I'm just gonna lay this on the table. that was positively horrible.

[geeWiz15]

I tried to find this for torrent and I searched "jordan 69" and I got like THOUSANDS of porn links :roll::roll:

who is this Jordan Capri? I'd better investigate. very busy girl it seems.

[04mzwach]

Jordan is better than Kobe. Seriously, how many times do we have to go through this Kobe 81 and Jordan 69 business? We all know that Jordan would have 200 points in a game or something like that compared to Kobe's measley 81 points in a game with versus one of the ****tiest teams in the entire universe on top of that and with Jordan facing the best team with basketball abilities in equivilance to God.

(sorry, belvedaire is very good)

[LakersDynasty]

"Measly 81 points" :roll: These haters are pathetic, yeah Jordan would score 200, no wait 2000, ain't nothing for him cause he's God right? Jordan handjobber. :roll:

[hotsizzle]

Jordan is better than Kobe. Seriously, how many times do we have to go through this Kobe 81 and Jordan 69 business? We all know that Jordan would have 200 points in a game or something like that compared to Kobe's measley 81 points in a game with versus one of the ****tiest teams in the entire universe on top of that and with Jordan facing the best team with basketball abilities in equivilance to God.

(sorry, belvedaire is very good)

you're pathetic. playing the "if" game. bottom line is 81>69. To belive that jordan's 69 is better than kobe's 81 is fine and is legit but to play the "if" game and downplay kobe's performance is ridiculous.

[LakersDynasty]

And here comes Loki with the efficiency stats........

[ManUtd]

Haters are so ****in pathetic. Always have to take things away from Kobe.

Kobe scored 81..Jordan didn't..deal with it.

Jordan is the greatest ever but Kobe scored more. He also should've scored more than 69 against Dallas.

Jordan thinks Kobe's the best right now..rightfully so.

[Targus]

im not hating here. Kobe scored 81, MJ didnt. the real qustion is...if MJ took that many more shots, would he have scored more than 81? the reason i think MJ's performance was more impressive was because of what else he did besides scoring. nothing wrong with that..

[West-Side]

Better overall numbers(18 rebs, 6 assists, 4 stls and 1 blk) against a playoff team.

OMG, a PLAYOFF team guys...a PLAYOFF team, I recall Kobe dropping 62 points in THREE quarters on the western conference championsions last season...that's more impressive then 81 or 69 by Jordan to me.

Jordan had the better overall game, Kobe obviously had a more impressive scoring night...I mean scoring 11 points above the 69 mark while mentaining the same FG avg as Jordan is amazing...I don't care what y'all say about Kobe, Dirk drops 70 points next season and he'll be more impressive as well to y'all. You guys love to bring the handcheck crap into this discussion, yet can someone care to explain why teams scored significantly more in those days? So I can just as easily say that Kobe could drop 40 PPG playing in the 90's...can't I? I mean I'm playing your game....but, if, and....right?

[hotsizzle]

im not hating here. Kobe scored 81, MJ didnt. the real qustion is...if MJ took that many more shots, would he have scored more than 81? the reason i think MJ's performance was more impressive was because of what else he did besides scoring. nothing wrong with that..

got no problem with that, its the idiots that say sh!t like "kobe's measley 81" that gets to me and "if jordan played today he'd avg 50". I mean WTF...i luv MJ but this sh!t pisses me off

[LakersDynasty]

Yeah MJ had a better all-around game because of the 18 rebounds, no one is denying that. But if you are going to say what would have happened IF MJ took 9 more shots (which he'd have to make 6 of them to tie it up) then you could also say what would have happened if Kobe's 81 point game went into overtime! The point is, everyone can play the IF game, especially if you want to bring in Kobe's 62 point game in this too!

[ManUtd]

Jordan took 37 shots and he needed overtime to score 69. So basically, Kobe took 9 shots more, scored 12 poins more and he did it in less time.

Why do people always use WHAT IF excuses and arguments when they talk about Kobe? It's always the same. People just want to take things away from him. It's disrespectful and unfair.

[Targus]

81 is huge. measley and 81 dont belong in the same sentence when it comes to this. how many players can say theyve scored 81 points?

[West-Side]

Kobe scored 81, MJ didnt. the real qustion is...if MJ took that many more shots, would he have scored more than 81?

Retarded statement, you didn't notice Kobe shooting 63% to Jordan's 62%? Kobe took the extra shots but he was on pace anyways...not like he scored 80 points while shooting 45%...he shot BETTER then Jordan that night while worrying about SCORING because his team was behind like 20 points...I don't remember that night Jordan scored 69, was his team in the same situation where he had to score? I can't recall...Kobe is the most IMPRESSIVE shooting performance in league HISTORY...there has been some better games by individuals no doubt about it...but Kobe's 81 is more impressive then Wilt's 100 simply because of the weak ass era Wilt played in, and he was a center who was a giant compare to other players...and only like 12 teams existed back in the day, no? Not much competition.

[hotsizzle]

Let's not forget Kobe also scored 62 in 3 quarters and outscored an NBA Finals team.

62 in 3 quarters or 69 in overtime?

in double overtime, wasnt it?

[ManUtd]

Yeah MJ had a better all-around game because of the 18 rebounds, no one is denying that. But if you are going to say what would have happened IF MJ took 9 more shots (which he'd have to make 6 of them to tie it up) then you could also say what would have happened if Kobe's 81 point game went into overtime! The point is, everyone can play the IF game, especially if you want to bring in Kobe's 62 point game in this too!


Good post. However it seems that WHAT IF is only used to minimize Kobe.

Yeah, WHAT IF that 81 point game went into overtime? Yeah, what if?

Stop it, idiots. What if doesn't count.. :hammerhead:

[West-Side]

"if jordan played today he'd avg 50".

:roll: Don't even get mad over these statements bro, these guys got half a brain...I mean it's simple math, teams in the past scored more points then today...yet somehow Jordan will avg 20 more options while teams score less each game.

Makes a sh*t load of sense to me.

[ManUtd]

in double overtime, wasnt it?

It was a double overtime? Damn..

[Targus]

what were kobe's stats when he scored 60 something in 3 quarters?

[hotsizzle]

62 pts..8 rebs..0 assts..3 stls on 18-31 shooting

[LakersDynasty]

Over 58% shooting, if you can make them at that rate, who's to say you can't take 60 shots a game, can you imagine people complaining about a prime Shaq taking 40 shots and making 25-30 of them?

[Loki]

in double overtime, wasnt it?

No, the 63-pt game vs. Boston was.

[Targus]

see now thats even more impressive imo. did it in 3 quarters on 18-31.

[hotsizzle]

It was a double overtime? Damn..

my bad, just checked..only one OT

[lakerfreak]

people act like Kobe played against kindergarteners or something.

They threw like three guys at him most of the time and he schooled them all.

Anyone who says Jordan's 69 was better than 81 id ****in retarded because its all numbers. Of course 81 is better. And kobes 81 was NOT better than wilts 100.

****...Must we go back to school to teach u bastardous haters that the DUCK ALWAYS GOES FOR THE BIGGER QUANTITY....

Im pretty sure u guys that say 69>81 failed math for 1 or 2 reasons.

[hotsizzle]

Over 58% shooting, if you can make them at that rate, who's to say you can't take 60 shots a game, can you imagine people complaining about a prime Shaq taking 40 shots and making 25-30 of them?

haha well shaq is dominant..kobe is a ball hog:rolleyes:

[hotsizzle]

people act like Kobe played against kindergarteners or something.

They threw like three guys at him most of the time and he schooled them all.

Anyone who says Jordan's 69 was better than 81 id ****in retarded because its all numbers. Of course 81 is better. And kobes 81 was NOT better than wilts 100.

****...Must we go back to school to teach u bastardous haters that the DUCK ALWAYS GOES FOR THE BIGGER QUANTITY....

Im pretty sure u guys that say 69>81 failed math for 1 or 2 reasons.

well theres definetly an arguement for MJ's 69 point game being better because he added 18 boards to it but 81>69 no matter what you do to it

[Targus]

****...Must we go back to school to teach u bastardous haters that the DUCK ALWAYS GOES FOR THE BIGGER QUANTITY....
.

....and I was always told the > was a crocodile :cry:


but really, you've got to see beyond the scoring, yeah he owned him there. but those 16 or w/e rebounds while scoring, yeesh.

[LakersDynasty]

haha well shaq is dominant..kobe is a ball hog:rolleyes:
I'll take all the ballhogs in the world if they can give me 58%/63% shooting on 62/81 points.

[hotsizzle]

I'll take all the ballhogs in the world if they can give me 58%/63% shooting on 62/81 points.

yea..but..but...but handchecking rules support perimeter players

[LakersDynasty]

yea..but..but...but handchecking rules support perimeter players
:roll:

[millencolin735]

Yeah the point was you totally ignore the subject of handchecking.

Guys like Kobe, Lebron, Wade, etc. score 40 so often noawadays, it's almost not even news anymore when they do it. In the 90's, there werent even half-as-many 40-point occurences.


Bottom line:
Jordan getting abused all game long and still scoring 69, with 18 rebounds >>>>>> Kobe getting 81 with these corny handcheck rules.

Now it's true that era of basketball was far more difficult to score in but Jordan was absolutely not being abused, I've seen the game quite a few times and they played straight up on MJ with Ehlo (who he always abused) and Mark Price. Even with the handchecking rules players of today would have theyre way with those players.

Now obviously Jordan had the better allaround game but c'mon it's 8 freakin 1 points, to many of you guys act like it's just a walk in the park. I think it's a shame how so many people try to discredit it when they should just sit back and admire it for what it is, a damn great accomplishment.

[ManUtd]

"Well the NBA is in great hands, but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant, without hesitation."

MJ knows what's up!!!!!!

[ManUtd]

Now it's true that era of basketball was far more difficult to score in but Jordan was absolutely not being abused, I've seen the game quite a few times and they played straight up on MJ with Ehlo (who he always abused) and Mark Price. Even with the handchecking rules players of today would have theyre way with those players.

Now obviously Jordan had the better allaround game but c'mon it's 8 freakin 1 points, to many of you guys act like it's just a walk in the park. I think it's a shame how so many people try to discredit it when they should just sit back and admire it for what it is, a damn great accomplishment.

It's because people have the need to take things away from Kobe.

If I got a nickle for every time someone said that any other star guard could win rings with Shaq I'd be a rich man. However, you don't hear the same about Wade for example.
It's just that. People hate Kobe so they use double standards and what if excuses. It's utterly pathetic.

[Money 23]

I'm a huge Jordan fan...

And I know the 81 point game is a way bigger accomplishment. Kobe wasn't playing chopped liver. But he was MAKING them look like chopped liver, but the defense wasn't THAT bad. He wasn't playing pre-schoolers. He was facing the same caliber defense, that Mike faced to notch 69 (in overtime), against guards that weren't even close enough to contend with Michael's jumper, or athletic ability. Kobe went up against people who were of similar athletic ability, quickness, and length. These were modern PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL PLAYERS. No excuse in the world can be made for that accomplishment. If you try to diminish that, you simply aren't a fan of the game of basketball. And you are just hating on a player, and a ridiculous all-time performance, for the sake of hating.

The scary part is, 62 in 33 minutes is a better accomplishment than both of those. Kobe had 51 in 3 quarters, the game he scored 81. Kobe had 62 points, outscoring the entire Mavericks roster, through 3 quarters of play. That is disgusting its so good. Imagine if he played the fourth, and had another 30 point quarter or more? He could've exceeded 90 points. His effeciency in both games was ri-god damn-diculous. Inside. Outside. Beyond area code range. It's all there. Seriously, both performances out due Jordan's 69.

[Psileas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6l7MHr4Wag

This is the video of Jordan's 69 points.

As far as the comparison goes, I think it's clear that Kobe's 81 in 42 minutes were more impressive than Jordan's 69 in 50. Jordan, OTOH, had the better all-around performance, with 10 rebounds and 4 assists more than Kobe. If you adjust playing times, Kobe's performance comes closer, but I don't really like these specific adjustments, so I won't assume things.

IMO, the best individual Reg.Season performance since 1990 was that Karl Malone's game against the Bucks in 1990, where he had 61 points on 21/26 shots and 19/23 FT's, 18 rebounds and 3 steals in 33 minutes.

[KillaBee]

Im too lazy to look it up, but I think in like 2001 or so Shaq had a 61 and 20 game on his birthday. I would probably give that the best single all around game ever.

[Lei]

Im too lazy to look it up, but I think in like 2001 or so Shaq had a 61 and 20 game on his birthday. I would probably give that the best single all around game ever.

It was agaisnt the then hopeless clippers and he got infinite passes from his teammates because it was "on his birthday". It was kinda watered-down just like how D-Rob edged him in ppg by scoring 71 points in that one last game of season 95.

[geeWiz15]

Kobe went up against people who were of similar athletic ability, quickness, and length. These were modern PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL PLAYERS. No excuse in the world can be made for that accomplishment.
Um Kobe went against MoPete for maybe like 15 minutes of the game cause he was always in foul trouble. you know who was guarding him for most of that? Nobody good, I'll tell you that much. He was rarely doubleteamed. It's a difference of 12 points while Jordan wasn't statpadding at the end; the game went down to the wire, and Jordan had the 18 boards and 6 assists to boot.

I can't speak to whether the Cavs defense was better than the Raptors defense but I'm betting it was. The Cavs were a playoff team; the Raps were near the bottom of the league.

[geeWiz15]

OMG, a PLAYOFF team guys...a PLAYOFF team, I recall Kobe dropping 62 points in THREE quarters on the western conference championsions last season...that's more impressive then 81 or 69 by Jordan to me.
I agree with this. 62 in 3 quarters against the best team in the West is absolutely phenominal. The Mavs had/have one of the best defenses in the league, and unlike the Raps, had 2 very good shotblockers in the middle. Kobe was on pace for over 80 in that one too, but had already outscored the conference champs BY HIMSELF after 3 quarters so he didn't even need to play.

[picc84]

Jordan is better than Kobe. Seriously, how many times do we have to go through this Kobe 81 and Jordan 69 business? We all know that Jordan would have 200 points in a game or something like that compared to Kobe's measley 81 points in a game with versus one of the ****tiest teams in the entire universe on top of that and with Jordan facing the best team with basketball abilities in equivilance to God.


yes, jordan is the greatest player ever. but wtf does jordan being better than kobe have to do with who had the better game?

If mj had gotten his stats in regulation I would agree it was a better overall game. However he had 5 EXTRA MINUTES to further increase them. Can we find kobe's stats per minute, extrapolate what he would done had the game gone into overtime, and then compare them to mj's game? :rolleyes:

[ronron15]

michael jordan's performance is more empressive.... Kobe's just number (stat) impressive

handcheck rules...

if MJ played with handchecks today, he'll average 40ppg

rules changed now cause lotta these new young cats cant score, the young players get convinced by the money-making agents that thy can turn pro, but the fact is they're not ready, many dunno how to shoot a jumper and too skinny for the pros

the points scored every game is lower n lower by the season, so they made the handcheck rules to rise the points scored in games...

[DCL]

sh!t, i think 0 points and 18 rebounds is already impressive enough for a 6'6" guard.

[XxNeXuSxX]

"Well the NBA is in great hands, but if I had to pick the single greatest player on the planet, I take Kobe Bryant, without hesitation."

MJ knows what's up!!!!!!

Except he never said "Well the NBA is in great hands" or "without hesitation" in fact you got the whole god damn quote wrong.

[geeWiz15]

Kobe's just number (stat) impressive
I'm more impressed by 69/18/6 in a nailbiting overtime game against a playoff team than I am 81/nothing/nothing with about 15 of those points coming when the game was long over against a cellar dweller with some of the worst D in the nation.

Hell, a guard getting 18 rebounds and 6 assists, without the points, is one of the most impressive things that can happen IMO. how many guards have gotten 18 boards? SFs even?

[Money 23]

I can't speak to whether the Cavs defense was better than the Raptors defense but I'm betting it was. The Cavs were a playoff team; the Raps were near the bottom of the league.
Umm, the defenders Kobe actually faced were better than the defenders Jordan faced. The Cavs were a playoff team at that time, but that doesn't mean Jordan faced better caliber defenders. Jordan was guarded that game by Ehlo (whom he routinely torched, and couldn't match up physically), he was guarded by little / un-athletic Mark Price. Think about that. In today's league, that would be like Kobe getting iso's all game + overtime agains Steve Nash and Bobby Sura. Instead Kobe faced Mo Pete, Jalen Rose, and combos with other athletic players, splitting double teams with behind the back dribbles like it was his job. Kobe's 81 is far more impressive. Not as complete, all-around, but 81 points, and single handedly leading a team back from a deficit and scoring 55 in ONE HALF is a more amazing game than 69 and 18 in 50 minutes of play.

[Loki]

Umm, the defenders Kobe actually faced were better than the defenders Jordan faced. The Cavs were a playoff team at that time, but that doesn't mean Jordan faced better caliber defenders. Jordan was guarded that game by Ehlo (whom he routinely torched, and couldn't match up physically), he was guarded by little / un-athletic Mark Price.

Jordan was guarded by Mark Price on a switch for approximately one possession in that game. He was primarily guarded by Ehlo (6'7") and Winston Bennett (6'7"). You've said this twice, and I'm not sure why you're repeating it since it's false. I also like how you act like Jordan wasn't doubled that game. :hammerhead: And I like how you compare Price's defense (even though he didn't guard Jordan, as we've established) to Nash's, even though Price was light years ahead as a defender.

Btw, is Jalen "I can't get off the ground" Rose really that much more athletic than Ehlo? Maybe 5-6 years ago he was. Lemme guess: because he's black, right? :rolleyes:


Btw, Cleveland was ranked 9th out of 27 teams in defense in 1990, with a defensive rating of 106.7 (giving up 102.9 ppg), whereas Toronto was ranked 28th out of 30 teams, with a defensive rating of 112.5 (giving up 104.0 ppg). That's quite a difference.

[Indian guy]

The Cavs in 89-90 were the 9th most efficient defensive team in the league. Toronto in 05-06? 28th :roll:

Only a true moron(or a groupie) would think Kobe went up against better D.

69/18/6/4/1 against a playoff team and a FAAAAAR better defensive team >>>>> 81/3 stls against a sh*tty squad that plays no D.


Instead Kobe faced Mo Pete, Jalen Rose, and combos with other athletic players,

Jalen Rose :roll:. The guy who'd make everybody's Worst Defenders of the Post-2000 Era" List. I saw 2 years of this bum in Chicago and he is without a doubt the worst perimeter defender I've seen this decade. He isn't athletic either. Also, who the heck are these "other athletic players" and if they're such a big deal then why were the Raptors the 3rd worst defensive team in the league last season? And since when does athleticism = automatically better/good D? Do you consider LeBron a good defender?

I also find it funny how in the Hill vs. James thread you were constantly talking abt how today's league is easier and Grant did it in a "much better and tougher league". Yet no such talk this time around. How come?

You also need to go and watch the game if you think MJ wasn't constantly doubled and trapped that night.

[Money 23]

I wouldn't say Price is light years ahead of Nash's defense. Probably better to an extent, but definetely not light years. Explain how he is 'light years' better? Are you one of those fans who presumes EVERYTHING was better back in the day? Or do you just hate Kobe?

And I realize Jordan was doubled that game. I didn't have to say it, because it was known. People were acting like Kobe wasn't, and that his defenders were mince meat compared to those backcourt Cavs players who were put on Jordan. When at least, they were about equal. So you can't use that as a means to diminish Kobe's performance. The reason why the Cavs had a good defense, was their athletic big men. Not because of their guard's defense. That's why Jordan routinely torched them, and why in 1993 they went to get the supposed "Jordan Stopper" in Gerald Wilkins. But Craig Ehlo, and Winston Bennett aren't near as athletic as the players Kobe faced for his 81. They can't contest with shots, and use explosive innate abilities to help them play defense. I have both games on tape, and it isn't even close. I'm not slighting Jordan. That performance was crazy. Yet, not near as crazy as 81 points. Better all-around game, in an extra 5 - 10 minutes compared to what Kobe played? Sure. Which is all the more reason, why 81 points is ridiculous. Second most points in a game in NBA HISTORY. And it was done by a 6'6 shooting guard, shooting mostly perimeter and long range bombs. That takes a hell of alot of stamina to get your legs into long shots, and to shoot as many times as he did, at such a great percentage. It was nuts. I think Kobe scored something like 20 points in the last 4 or 5 minutes of the game. It was incredible. As was Jordan's feat. Just not AS amazing, due to the context. In my opinion, at least. And as we know, we all have opinions. Plus, I don't think Jordan's 69 is his best performance...

[geeWiz15]

LOL Loki once again, a total 90s NBA library.

[Money 23]

I also find it funny how in the Hill vs. James thread you were constantly talking abt how today's league is easier and Grant did it in a "much better and tougher league". Yet no such talk this time around. How come?
It is a more difficult league then. Hands down. But that doesn't make me believe 69 points in 50 minutes, was more impressive than 81 in 41 minutes. Because I have tapes of both games, and can compare them. The Cavs weren't a physical team that knocked your block off. They were a finesse team, and were good defenders not because of their permiter, but because of their interior. It wasn't like Jordan was being defensed by great permiter defenders that game against Cleveland. There is a reason he routinely made them his b1tch. And why they searched desperately for years, for an athletic two guard who could at least contend with his athletic ability, let alone his game. In comes Gerald Wilkins in 1992 - 1993.


You also need to go and watch the game if you think MJ wasn't constantly doubled and trapped that night.
Oh, I've watched it. Recently actually. And I never said he wasn't double and tripple teamed. But when it comes down to it numbers wise, 81 to me is more impressive than 69 in an overtime win. 12 more points, in about ten less minutes of play. Going against double teams, and triple teams that Jordan faced, and shooting long range bombs ... which takes a real toll on your legs. I just find 81 more amazing than his Jordan's 69 performance. And as I've said, I've seen better Jordan games than his 69 / 18 in Overtime.

[Loki]

I wouldn't say Price is light years ahead of Nash's defense. Probably better to an extent, but definetely not light years. Explain how he is 'light years' better? Are you one of those fans who presumes EVERYTHING was better back in the day? Or do you just hate Kobe?

How does me noting that Price's defense was way better than Nash's (your analogy, not mine) make me a "Kobe hater" considering that Steve Nash didn't guard Kobe in that game? Price was simply a much better defender; I've seen both of them. Price was more fundamental, gave more effort, and was gritty to boot. Nash is...well...Nash.


And I realize Jordan was doubled that game. I didn't have to say it, because it was known. People were acting like Kobe wasn't, and that his defenders were mince meat compared to those backcourt Cavs players who were put on Jordan.

Did I personally say that? Kobe was doubled (not as much as some fans would have you believe, but he was), but the actual quality of the defenses in question can be viewed objectively, as I've tried to show you. As to individual defenders, I really don't think that Jalen Rose is much more athletic than Craig Ehlo. Don't know what else to say except that I think you're simultaneously overestimating the athleticism of Toronto's defenders while underestimating that of Cleveland's defenders.


When at least, they were about equal. So you can't use that as a means to diminish Kobe's performance.

I have never -- as in "not once" -- tried to diminish Kobe's performance. Not when it happened, and not in the intervening months.


Second most points in a game in NBA HISTORY. And it was done by a 6'6 shooting guard, shooting mostly perimeter and long range bombs. That takes a hell of alot of stamina to get your legs into long shots, and to shoot as many times as he did, at such a great percentage. It was nuts.

I agree.


we all have opinions. Plus, I don't think Jordan's 69 is his best performance...

Neither do I.

[Younggrease]

I think the MAvs game was better because of the quality of team but I like Kobe's 81. The reason is there a was a moment of time in the game where you just saw Kobe say, "screw this im not going to lose to Toronto" They go from being down 20 to up 20 in mere matter of minutes. You could see the fear and helplessness in the defenders faces, Kobe took their hearts. Thats why I liked Kobe's game. You can actually pick out the moment where he rips each Toronto defenders heart out.

[Indian guy]

And I realize Jordan was doubled that game. I didn't have to say it, because it was known.

Ummm, you said MJ going up against Ehlo/Price was the equivalent of Kobe FACING SINGLE coverage against Sura/Nash.


People were acting like Kobe wasn't, and that his defenders were mince meat compared to those backcourt Cavs players who were put on Jordan.

Compared to the Cavs the Raptors are indeed mince meat defensively. 9th best versus 3rd worst. Think about it.


The reason why the Cavs had a good defense, was their athletic big men. Not because of their guard's defense.

Defense is a TEAM game. The Cavs didn't have an intimidating presence in the paint who you can say held the team together. Nobody ala a TD/Shaq/Hakeem/D-Rob.


But Craig Ehlo, and Winston Bennett aren't near as athletic as the players Kobe faced for his 81.

Once again, who are these athletic players Kobe faced while going up against 3rd ****tiest defensive team in the league? Rose? :roll:. Peterson is a decent athlete, nothing more. The Raptors don't have anyone else in the back court(around Kobe's height) who I'd term as athletic.


I have both games on tape, and it isn't even close.

So, 69/18/6/4/1 isn't even close to 81/nothing because MJ didn't go up against a 27-win, 3rd worst defensive team in the league that featured IMO the worst perimeter defender of the post-2000 era in Jalen Rose(who guarded Kobe quite a lot that night). Is that the reason why it isn't even close to you?

[Indian guy]

It is a more difficult league then. Hands down. But that doesn't make me believe 69 points in 50 minutes, was more impressive than 81 in 41 minutes.

The question wasn't 69 in 50 vs. 81 in 42. The question on the first page is asking which is the better GAME? 69/18/6/4/1 against a playoff squad that also happens to be the 9th best defensive team in the league is clearly superior in my eyes.


It wasn't like Jordan was being defensed by great permiter defenders that game against Cleveland. There is a reason he routinely made them his b1tch. And why they searched desperately for years, for an athletic two guard who could at least contend with his athletic ability, let alone his game. In comes Gerald Wilkins in 1992 - 1993.

The Cavs DID have an athletic 2-guard in Ron Harper. He fared no better than Ehlo or Wilkins. MJ simply liked playing against Cleveland. They were one of the few teams who used to guard him 1-on-1(they smartened up, eventually) and MJ obviously took it as an insult and used to go extra hard at them.


And as I've said, I've seen better Jordan games than his 69 / 18 in Overtime.

Agreed. I think most people who've seen a lot of MJ will tell you that's not his best game. Even though he was near perfect at all aspects of the game that night.

[West-Side]

So, 69/18/6/4/1 isn't even close to 81/nothing because MJ didn't go up against a 27-win

Isn't even close? :confusedshrug: Kobe had 6 rebounds and 3 steals...but I guess that's nothing...I guess since Jordan had 18 rebounds (did Cavs even have a big man on that team, a good post presence who can grab them rebounds?)...does mean that Kobe didn't do anything but score...last I checked 6 rebounds and 3 steals a game is more then 95% of SGs production a game in this league.
I don't know about you guys but this kid lost every credibility, I see people complain about Kobe groupies yet this is probably the biggest Jordan homer I've seen in my life. I can understand if Jordan impressed you more, I'm fine with you saying he had the better all around game because he did...but claiming it ain't even close is a case of unbelievable denial.

If you want to play that game buddy...Kobe sh*ts on Jordan's overtime win with his 69 points/18 rebounds when Kobe he OUTSCORED a western conference champions by HIMSELF aftter 3 quarters...you're just mad that Kobe could probably have already 3-4 games over 69 throught FIRST half of his career...and being a 2nd option for 8 years of his career.

[Indian guy]

...but claiming it ain't even close is a case of unbelievable denial.

So you're saying Money 23(apparently a big MJ fan) is in denial? He's the one who said 69/18/6/4/1 isn't even close to 81.

[Loki]

Isn't even close? :confusedshrug: Kobe had 6 rebounds and 3 steals...but I guess that's nothing...I guess since Jordan had 18 rebounds (did Cavs even have a big man on that team, a good post presence who can grab them rebounds?)...

Actually, Cleveland had 3 big men over 8 rebounds per game that year: Nance (8.3 rpg), Daugherty (9.1 rpg), and Williams (8.1 rpg). Toronto only had Bosh at 9.2 and then no other player above 6.4 rpg (Villanueva). So I'm not sure why you'd make that comment...

[West-Side]

I just made a big post but it didn't proceed...not bothering to retype it. I talk about about how 9 RPG in those days aren't that impressive, since today 13 RPG would clinch you a rebounding title, while back in the day dozen of players had that mark in the league. I'm pretty sure Bosh would get well over 12 RPG in those days, deep down Loki knows it too.

I'm out.

[littlespyda]

mj's was better. 69, 18, 6 oh my goddd! they showed this game on espn classic today.

[Brunch@Five]

All numbers put aside Kobes performance was simply more impressive because of the complete momentum swing it caused. MJ needed OT to win the game, Kobe brought back the lackers from -20 to lead them to a near 20 point victory.
Also, in Kobe's 81 game Kwame and Odom each got 10 rebounds, Mihm had 8 and George got 7. MJ's game? 2nd leading rebounder was Pippen with 8, and the two big men, Cartwright and and Ho Grant each got only 5. Of course MJ would get many rebounds with both big men not producing.
Not that it was not a great rebounding performance, but you have to put it into context.

[jan803]

well naturally mj's 69 was a better overall better game. it gets bigger props because it was a playoff game as well.

but for some who try to underestimate kobe's performance, just aren't fans of the guy...(what a surprise)

there was a few articles w/quotes from other players of the league after kobe's 81. a few of them noted that they'd have trouble shooting 46 times in a game. it takes a lot of conditioning to shoot that many shots. they noted their legs and arms would be very tired.

kobe did this in what, 42 mins? and he was VERY efficient in the process.

just accept that that scoring 81 is hard. no one but wilt out did it and he took just a regulation game to pull it off.

some of you touched on the 62 againt the mavs. his 56 point game in 2002 against memphis was another game where he did it in 3 quarters and wasn't needed in the 4th and he was very efficient in that one as well.

now 69/18 for mj...the 18 boards is a very remarkable accomplishment as well. that pushes his game over kobe's.

[LakersDynasty]

It wasn't a playoff game.

[Brunch@Five]

well naturally mj's 69 was a better overall better game. it gets bigger props because it was a playoff game as well.


it was NOT in the playoffs. Is that so hard to understand?

[Money 23]

How does me noting that Price's defense was way better than Nash's (your analogy, not mine) make me a "Kobe hater" considering that Steve Nash didn't guard Kobe in that game? Price was simply a much better defender; I've seen both of them. Price was more fundamental, gave more effort, and was gritty to boot. Nash is...well...Nash.
Just wasn't sure, that's all. That's why I asked, and didn't label. Plus, I do think Price is a better defender than Steve Nash. But I definetely wouldn't label it as "light years". You know the deal though. Price and Nash are virtually the same player in my opinion, except Price faced and played against way better defense.

BTW, Price guarded him on more than one play. I remember specifically him making Price fall, on a turn around fadeaway where he shook Price, and he fell to the ground. I also remember Jordan hitting a long perimter 3 on him. And he guarded him on a few more plays.

Did I personally say that?
No, you didn't. But at the same time I'm like defending myself from 2-3 people. Naturally I lumped you in with them, and I apologize. I was addressing like 2 or 3 of you all at once. Know what I mean?


Kobe was doubled (not as much as some fans would have you believe, but he was)
Yeah. Actually, he wasn't doubled till the 4th quarter. But I also think the 4th quarter of that game was his highest scoring quarter. But definetely, he wasn't doubled until the 4th. I mean they ran players at him, but the double team wasn't intense until the later stages. And they were doing i on the perimeter.


but the actual quality of the defenses in question can be viewed objectively, as I've tried to show you. As to individual defenders, I really don't think that Jalen Rose is much more athletic than Craig Ehlo.
Jalen Rose might not be, but Mo Pete is.


Don't know what else to say except that I think you're simultaneously overestimating the athleticism of Toronto's defenders while underestimating that of Cleveland's defenders.
I could be, that's also why I also settled on saying they were equal. Because if you watch the game, Jordan isn't facing some difficult defense like the Knicks, or Pistons who gave Jordan bigger fits than other teams. Cavs may have been good statistically on defense against other teams, but this is a team that never gave Jordan troubles, individually. Toronto wasn't a good defensive team either. That's why they were on a level playing field as far as defense they faced, goes.


I have never -- as in "not once" -- tried to diminish Kobe's performance. Not when it happened, and not in the intervening months.
Ok, cool. Can't say the same for some of the people in this thread. You'd have to have your basketball fan membership revoked if you didn't dig, or acknowledge the craziness that was this game. If you try to diminish this game at all, you aren't a fan. Even if you don't like the guy, which is a vast majority of people, you have to give him props for this game.


I agree.
Good, smart man.


Neither do I.
Double true. What is your favorite Mike performance? Personally, I don't know if it is my favorite... but the game where he dropped like 35 in the half of Game 1 of the 1992 NBA Finals... he could've dropped a ridiculous amount of points in an NBA FINALS GAME!!! He realistically, the way he was playing ... and shooting the 3. Jordan could've got to 80 in that game. And I say that w/o hesitation, and w/o pity.

[Money 23]

just accept that that scoring 81 is hard. no one but wilt out did it and he took just a regulation game to pull it off.
If you have to ask someone to admit that is difficult, there is no use in talking about sports with them.

I still feel 81 points, 6 rebounds, and 3 steals in 41 minutes is more amazing than Jordan's 69 points, 18 rebounds, and 3 steals in 50 minutes of basketball. That 12 points is alot, given the amount of playing time the two played. They played a similar defense. You can't use competition as a means to dis-credit, and/or praise either, because watching the games both Jordan and Kobe sliced through a similar permiter defense. Kobe didn't have those massive 18 rebounds, but that also wasn't what the team needed to win the game. And Kobe scored all those points, because that is what his team needed to win.

Don't take it as I am dis-crediting MJ. That's my man. That's my favorite player of all time. The GOAT, imo. And he was a better player than Kobe Bryant. But that 62 in 3, and 81, are two of the greatest scoring games in history. Both sitting right behind Wilt's 100. That 62 in 3, against the second best team in the league, and one of the better defenses in the league was crazy. A much more thrilling feat (IMO) than Kobe's 81. That game, realistically, Kobe could've put up around 90 points if he stayed that hot, and played the rest of the game out. Kind of frightening if you think about it. PJ said he had never seen a scoring outburtst like that. He said he never saw someone drop 62 points in only 3 quarters of play. It was crazy. That's a real life video game, right there.

[jan803]

it was NOT in the playoffs. Is that so hard to understand?

oh, then i was thinking of another game of mj's.

still doesn't change what i said about his rebounds. it was why it was the better overall game.

[Loki]

BTW, Price guarded him on more than one play. I remember specifically him making Price fall, on a turn around fadeaway where he shook Price, and he fell to the ground. I also remember Jordan hitting a long perimter 3 on him. And he guarded him on a few more plays.

That's the play I recalled as well. I honestly don't recall any others, though he might have hit a 3 on Price as well. To say that Jordan was guarded by "Price and Ehlo" is misleading, however. Like I said, he was guarded by Ehlo and Bennett for at least 90-95% of the game.



Jalen Rose might not be, but Mo Pete is.

Yeah, but it's marginal -- it's not like Mo Pete is TMac, after all.


Double true. What is your favorite Mike performance? Personally, I don't know if it is my favorite... but the game where he dropped like 35 in the half of Game 1 of the 1992 NBA Finals... he could've dropped a ridiculous amount of points in an NBA FINALS GAME!!! He realistically, the way he was playing ... and shooting the 3. Jordan could've got to 80 in that game. And I say that w/o hesitation, and w/o pity.

I don't think he could've gotten 80 that game (or even 65+), but there's no question he could have had 40-45 points that first half. Few people know this (people who don't have the game on tape, that is :D), but Jordan scored 35 in the first half while sitting out about 7 1/2 minutes. That's insane.

[picc84]

Just being in the playoffs doesnt make you a good defensive team. Look at the Suns.

[Shepseskaf]

it was NOT in the playoffs. Is that so hard to understand?
It wasn't, but it might as well have been. It definitely had playoff-level intensity. The Cavs were trying desperately to get into the playoffs, so it was a key game for them.

In other words, this wasn't some lackadaisical mid-season game.

[Loki]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6l7MHr4Wag

That's every one of his baskets from the 69-point game. As you can see, Price is on him (on a switch where Jordan rolled into the post, mind you) for only one play, and then comes to help on the baseline on another jumper as Jordan beat Ehlo baseline.

[Money 23]

I don't think he could've gotten 80 that game (or even 65+), but there's no question he could have had 40-45 points that first half. Few people know this (people who don't have the game on tape, that is :D), but Jordan scored 35 in the first half while sitting out about 7 1/2 minutes. That's insane.
I fully realized that. That's why I said, if he kept that hot shooting, and got the minutes... he could've put up 60+ for sure.

[Loki]

I fully realized that. That's why I said, if he kept that hot shooting, and got the minutes... he could've put up 60+ for sure.

Keeping the hot shooting and getting the minutes in a blowout game are the hard parts. Also, getting 16+ FT's on a hot shooting night, AND getting 40+ shots up AND staying in the game til the very end. It was a confluence of circumstances that allowed Kobe's game to occur:

-- he was incredibly hot (not normal hot -- incredibly hot)

-- he played the entire game and needed to score to erase a deficit (as opposed to sitting a lot with a big lead or playing but filling another role, like say facilitator, if the team was playing well)

-- he put up a huge # of shots

-- he got a ton of FT's in the same game that all of the above was happening


Jordan has unquestionably been "hotter" than Kobe many games (i.e., higher FG%); for example, in 1989 he went 24-29 from the field for 52 points -- he hit 21 of his first 23 shots that game. But he only got 4 free throws. There are other games like that; the point is that if he was having a super hot game, AND had to play big minutes, AND got a ton of FT's in the same game, AND took 46 shots in the same game, he'd have many more games of 60+ to his credit, and even possibly a couple of 70+ games.


This is not to discredit what Kobe did -- but you have to admit that everything came together for him that night, which is incredibly rare. A lot of that has nothing to do with him (e.g., the # of FT's awarded in any given game, the quality of the defense etc.). Still, a remarkable performance, and one that I probably won't see the equal of in my lifetime.

[crisoner]

I'll have to with MJ

playoff game and against a great team like the Celtics.

Not to discredit Kobe though 91 points by a 2 guard is freaking crazy.

[Loki]

I'll have to with MJ

playoff game and against a great team like the Celtics.

Not to discredit Kobe though 91 points by a 2 guard is freaking crazy.

:roll:

I'm hoping this was facetious. :hammerhead: :D In fact, I'm pretty sure it was.

[ALlArOuNDPIaya]

I'll have to with MJ

playoff game and against a great team like the Celtics.

Not to discredit Kobe though 91 points by a 2 guard is freaking crazy.

:confused:

[eliteballer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6l7MHr4Wag

LOL @ people acting like that's good defense. MJ was wide open damn near most the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8MXycYwfRg

56 in 3 quarters back in 2002

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNGTN_s4l78

42 in a half(55 total) vs Wizards. Kobe had over 30 points in a stretch of 7 minutes at one point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeY6_f-pJWc

Kobe drops 62 in 3 quarters vs Dallas who had WAY MORE CAPABLE DEFENDERS than the damn Cavs.

Of course the 81 point game as well...didn't Kobe score over 50 in the second half alone? Don't quite remember. Took MJ OT...that seals it for Kobe.

[StarJordan]

Of course the 81 point game as well...didn't Kobe score over 50 in the second half alone? Don't quite remember. Took MJ OT...that seals it for Kobe

Kobe highlights B-O-R-I-N-G. Jordan's jumpers are better than Kobe's dunks.

[Loki]

Eliteballer, what video were you watching? Jordan had 3-4 open shots in that game, and 2 of those were when he shot directly behind a screen so the defense couldn't challenge; another was on a kickout for 3, and the last (which was semi-challenged) was on a semi-transition pull-up from 18 feet. In addition, he had another open look when Price gambled and Jordan spun and fired, and another relatively open look that he himself generated by breaking Ehlo off on the baseline to create space. And one breakaway dunk. Every other shot of his 23 made field goals was contested by 1-2 defenders, not including the other attempts he was fouled on.


Kobe's performance was more impressive from a purely offensive POV, but don't engage in revisionist history when the evidence is right there for others to see.

[97 bulls]

what if jordan did not have to expend so much energy battling nance, brad daujghtery, and hot rod williams, for those rebounds? i think if jordan could have used more energy on scoring he probably would have had more points.

[xxxSuperStar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6l7MHr4Wag

LOL @ people acting like that's good defense. MJ was wide open damn near most the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8MXycYwfRg

56 in 3 quarters back in 2002

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNGTN_s4l78

42 in a half(55 total) vs Wizards. Kobe had over 30 points in a stretch of 7 minutes at one point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeY6_f-pJWc

Kobe drops 62 in 3 quarters vs Dallas who had WAY MORE CAPABLE DEFENDERS than the damn Cavs.

Of course the 81 point game as well...didn't Kobe score over 50 in the second half alone? Don't quite remember. Took MJ OT...that seals it for Kobe.

A) This isnt Kobe vs Jordan as career, becaue only the most blind and ignorant fans would think that half a career is better than an entire career of Jordan's level.

B) Tell me how the 2005-06 Mavs defense was better than the 1989-90 Cavs defense. That wasn't a watered down league back then. Price, Ehlo, Nance and Doughrety. They'd win 55-60 easy in today's NBA.

[MaxFly]

what if jordan did not have to expend so much energy battling nance, brad daujghtery, and hot rod williams, for those rebounds? i think if jordan could have used more energy on scoring he probably would have had more points.

Honestly, having watched the game a number of times, Jordan didn't "battle" for rebounds. Most of them came fairly easily. He found himself on the low block on a number of occasions and was able to pull them down. Many of the rebounds would have gone to a teammate if Jordan himself hadn't gotten them. I don't want to take away from Jordan's achievement; 18 rebounds is wonderful... but to say that he expended a lot of energy battling for rebounds isn't accurate. It was my intention to record the game last night but I got sidetracked. I wish I had... I'd have visual aid to further back up my statements. But having watched the game last night, Jordan wasn't battling anyone.

[xxxSuperStar]

Honestly, having watched the game a number of times, Jordan didn't "battle" for rebounds. Most of them came fairly easily. He found himself on the low block on a number of occasions and was able to pull them down. Many of the rebounds would have gone to a teammate if Jordan himself hadn't gotten them. I don't want to take away from Jordan's achievement; 18 rebounds is wonderful... but to say that he expended a lot of energy battling for rebounds isn't accurate. It was my intention to record the game last night but I got sidetracked. I wish I had... I'd have visual aid to further back up my statements. But having watched the game last night, Jordan wasn't battling anyone.

You just don't "find" youself on the lowblock and take rebounds away from much taller and bigger and capable rebounding teammates. For example, the very first Jordan rebound was over 6 10 and high leaping, ex dunk champion Larry Nance and then fouled for a 3-point play. You expend effort as a 6"6 guard vs large men (Doughrety and Nance, not to mention those on his own team).

Jordan is the GOAT because of his will to win and do great. Kobe probabaly, all in all is as talented, he just doesn't have the will. No discredit to him, because I don't know if anybody in all of professional sports has had the will and desire to win like Jordan had. That is why he's not only the NBA GOAT, but ranks up there will the professional athlete GOATs.

[MaxFly]

You just don't "find" youself on the lowblock and take rebounds away from much taller and bigger and capable rebounding teammates. For example, the very first Jordan rebound was over 6 10 and high leaping, ex dunk champion Larry Nance and then fouled for a 3-point play. You expend effort as a 6"6 guard vs large men (Doughrety and Nance, not to mention those on his own team).

Jordan is the GOAT because of his will to win and do great. Kobe probabaly, all in all is as talented, he just doesn't have the will. No discredit to him, because I don't know if anybody in all of professional sports has had the will and desire to win like Jordan had. That is why he's not only the NBA GOAT, but ranks up there will the professional athlete GOATs.

This is where people's personal feeling get mixed up with objective, logical discourse. I'm not sure where the "Jordan is the Goat because of his will to win" diatribe came from. This discussion has nothing to do with Jordan being the Goat or his will to win. I'm saying that Jordan didn't expend a lot of energy battling and getting rebounds. Moreover, on several plays, he found himself on the low block in perfect position to grab rebounds. It's pretty simple. He wasn't flying in from the perimeter repeatedly to pull down boards, nor did he often find himself fighting the opposition for rebounds. Again, I've watched this game several times, and most recently, yesterday evening. The majority of Jordan's rebounds came easily. 18 rebounds is 18 rebounds... there is no need to exaggerate the feat. He didn't have to out jump or battle with Doughrety and Nance on too many occasions.

[DieHardBullsFan]

Im a diehard Bulls and Jordan fan and I say, Kobe's 81 point game was better (and I dont like Kobe at all) heres why:

Jordan got his 69 points during a whole game and overtime

Kobe got his 81 in a whole game without no overtime, plus the game was close too...so was the Jordan game, but I think that 5 extra minutes that MJ had gives Kobe the edge in this one...

[xxxSuperStar]

This is where people's personal feeling get mixed up with objective, logical discourse. I'm not sure where the "Jordan is the Goat because of his will to win" diatribe came from. This discussion has nothing to do with Jordan being the Goat or his will to win. I'm saying that Jordan didn't expend a lot of energy battling and getting rebounds. Moreover, on several plays, he found himself on the low block in perfect position to grab rebounds. It's pretty simple. He wasn't flying in from the perimeter repeatedly to pull down boards, nor did he often find himself fighting the opposition for rebounds. Again, I've watched this game several times, and most recently, yesterday evening. The majority of Jordan's rebounds came easily. 18 rebounds is 18 rebounds... there is no need to exaggerate the feat. He didn't have to out jump or battle with Doughrety and Nance on too many occasions.

And like I said, do you think that players just "find themselves on the low block in perfect position?"

I have seen the game probably 10 times as well. Tell me what happened on the very first rebound, which was an offensive rebound BTW.

Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, D-Howard just don't "find themselves on the low block." They work to get the best position.

As a guard, Jason Kidd just doesn't "find himself on the low block" he works to get those rebounds.

People who get rebounds don't wait for them to "fall into their hands" and "find themselves on the low block," they work for them.

That's why people like Eddy Curry at 7 0 and 290 don't "find themselves on the low block." It takes effort.

And like I said, not that Kobe doesn't exert effort, there are just very few who exerted it all the time and consistently like MJ. Kobe does it a lot, more than just about anybody, but not all the time (see game 7 playoffs v Suns.)

[MaxFly]

And like I said, do you think that players just "find themselves on the low block in perfect position?"


Yes, it happens all the time. If you're guarding someone and they are in the paint, on the outskirts, or you are collapsing on a player and find yourself close to the basket, you find yourself in pretty good rebounding position. Again, Jordan wasn't flying in from the perimeter to collect rebounds, nor did he have to work very hard to position himself for rebounds.


I have seen the game probably 10 times as well. Tell me what happened on the very first rebound, which was an offensive rebound BTW.

Dennis Rodman, Ben Wallace, D-Howard just don't "find themselves on the low block." They work to get the best position.

As a guard, Jason Kidd just doesn't "find himself on the low block" he works to get those rebounds.

People who get rebounds don't wait for them to "fall into their hands" and "find themselves on the low block," they work for them.

There is a level of work involved. Rebounds seldom fall into your hands, though they do at times... but the majority of the rebounds that Jordan pulled down did not require him to expend a lot of energy or exert himself excessivly. Did he battle for a few rebounds, of course. Did he have to battle for the majority of his rebounds and expend a lot of energy? He did not.


That's why people like Eddy Curry at 7 0 and 290 don't "find themselves on the low block." It takes effort.

Again, the reason that guards generally don't pull down a lot of rebounds is that they usually guard players on the perimeter, and as a result, find themselves in positions or locations on the court that make it difficult for them to get their hands on a rebound consistently. If the players Jordan guarded had stood out on the perimeter for the duration of the game, more likely than not, Jordan wouldn't have come down with 18 rebounds. However, Jordan was fortunate to find himself in positions that made it easier for him to rebound. There was one rebound where the ball bounced to the left block, and only Bulls players were in the paint. Jordan came down with the ball because he was in good position to get it. He didn't work very hard... didn't have to outleap several Cavs players, nor expend a lot of energy, and many of his other rebounds were of a similar fashion,.


And like I said, not that Kobe doesn't exert effort, there are just very few who exerted it all the time and consistently like MJ. Kobe does it a lot, more than just about anybody, but not all the time (see game 7 playoffs v Suns.)

I'm not sure where Bryant comes into this. You keep mentioning him, but this specific discussion concerning Jordan's rebounds has nothing to do with him. This discussion you and I are having concerns whether Jordan expended a lot of energy collecting rebounds... Bryant doesn't factor into this specific conversation in the least. The poster I responded to said that Jordan expended a lot of energy going after rebounds. I addressed that specific issue and nothing else.

[Loki]

Honestly, having watched the game a number of times, Jordan didn't "battle" for rebounds. Most of them came fairly easily. He found himself on the low block on a number of occasions and was able to pull them down. Many of the rebounds would have gone to a teammate if Jordan himself hadn't gotten them. I don't want to take away from Jordan's achievement; 18 rebounds is wonderful... but to say that he expended a lot of energy battling for rebounds isn't accurate. It was my intention to record the game last night but I got sidetracked. I wish I had... I'd have visual aid to further back up my statements. But having watched the game last night, Jordan wasn't battling anyone.

7 offensive rebounds -- which is what he had that game -- don't come easily. I guess he's the only player in history to have 18 rebounds fall into his lap. ;)

A little known fact: Jordan's career high in rebounds is 19, not 18, though NBA.com and most reference sites list 18 as his career high. He had 19 rebounds (8 offensive) vs. Philly in the '91 playoffs. I guess they only count regular season highs as "career highs"?

[xxxSuperStar]

Yes, it happens all the time. If you're guarding someone and they are in the paint, on the outskirts, or you are collapsing on a player and find yourself close to the basket, you find yourself in pretty good rebounding position. Again, Jordan wasn't flying in from the perimeter to collect rebounds, nor did he have to work very hard to position himself for rebounds.



There is a level of work involved. Rebounds seldom fall into your hands, though they do at times... but the majority of the rebounds that Jordan pulled down did not require him to expend a lot of energy or exert himself excessivly. Did he battle for a few rebounds, of course. Did he have to battle for the majority of his rebounds and expend a lot of energy? He did not.

I disagree, as I saw him work for many of the rebounds and considering that 7of his 18 rebounds were on the offensive end, that tells you something.

Two different people watching the same thing coming to a differnt conclusion is not unusual. I hope that one day Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Allen, Kidd, Melo,



Again, the reason that guards generally don't pull down a lot of rebounds is that they usually guard players on the perimeter, and as a result, find themselves in positions or locations on the court that make it difficult for them to get their hands on a rebound consistently. If the players Jordan guarded had stood out on the perimeter for the duration of the game, more likely than not, Jordan wouldn't have come down with 18 rebounds. However, Jordan was fortunate to find himself in positions that made it easier for him to rebound. There was one rebound where the ball bounced to the left block, and only Bulls players were in the paint. Jordan came down with the ball because he was in good position to get it. He didn't work very hard... didn't have to outleap several Cavs players, nor expend a lot of energy, and many of his other rebounds were of a similar fashion,.



I'm not sure where Bryant comes into this. You keep mentioning him, but this specific discussion concerning Jordan's rebounds has nothing to do with him. This discussion you and I are having concerns whether Jordan expended a lot of energy collecting rebounds... Bryant doesn't factor into this specific conversation in the least. The poster I responded to said that Jordan expended a lot of energy going after rebounds. I addressed that specific issue and nothing else.

I disagree, as I saw him work for many of the rebounds and considering that 7of his 18 rebounds were on the offensive end, that tells you something.

But, two different people watching the same thing coming to a differnt conclusion is not unusual.

I hope that one day Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Allen, Kidd, Melo and any other player in today's NBA may one day have 18 rebounds fall into their lap or find themselves in "perfect position" while scoring 69 points.

[MaxFly]

I disagree, as I saw him work for many of the rebounds and considering that 7of his 18 rebounds were on the offensive end, that tells you something.

He worked hard for a few of the rebounds, but the majority of rebounds didn't require that Jordan expend a lot of energy.


I hope that one day Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Allen, Kidd, Melo and any other player in today's NBA may one day have 18 rebounds fall into their lap or find themselves in "perfect position" while scoring 69 points.

Depends on how those players reach 18 rebounds. If Lebron is battling for position more often than not, and actually expending a lot of energy to get rebounds, then that will be very impressive. If he manages to come down with 18 rebounds which is impressive, but it's obvious that he didn't have to overly exert himself, and someone says that Lebron expended a lot of energy pulling down rebound, I'd hope that others would realize that it wasn't so.

[04mzwach]

you're pathetic. playing the "if" game. bottom line is 81>69. To belive that jordan's 69 is better than kobe's 81 is fine and is legit but to play the "if" game and downplay kobe's performance is ridiculous.
i take nothing away from Kobe you Laker Homer. I'm just saying that Kobe's 81 is nothing compared to Jordan's 69 and you even know that yourself. Don't play me dude.

[JtotheIzzo]

Kobe's 62 in 33 minutes against the Conference Champs (Dallas) is BETTER than Jordan's 69 and Kobe's 81.

There, I said it...

who said I was a Kobe hater?

[hotsizzle]

i take nothing away from Kobe you Laker Homer. I'm just saying that Kobe's 81 is nothing compared to Jordan's 69 and you even know that yourself. Don't play me dude.

heres your post:

Jordan is better than Kobe. Seriously, how many times do we have to go through this Kobe 81 and Jordan 69 business? We all know that Jordan would have 200 points in a game or something like that compared to Kobe's measley 81 points in a game with versus one of the ****tiest teams in the entire universe on top of that and with Jordan facing the best team with basketball abilities in equivilance to God.

nuff said

[MJ23Overrated]

If I saw Kobe's 81 point game on dvd I'd be willing to pay up to $7 for it. On the other hand, I wouldn't even waste my time watching Jordan's 69 point game in overtime.

[ManUtd]

You just don't "find" youself on the lowblock and take rebounds away from much taller and bigger and capable rebounding teammates. For example, the very first Jordan rebound was over 6 10 and high leaping, ex dunk champion Larry Nance and then fouled for a 3-point play. You expend effort as a 6"6 guard vs large men (Doughrety and Nance, not to mention those on his own team).

Jordan is the GOAT because of his will to win and do great. Kobe probabaly, all in all is as talented, he just doesn't have the will. No discredit to him, because I don't know if anybody in all of professional sports has had the will and desire to win like Jordan had. That is why he's not only the NBA GOAT, but ranks up there will the professional athlete GOATs.

Kobe doesn't have the will? Go **** yourself you ignorant, unknowledgable ****.

[Shepseskaf]

Kobe doesn't have the will? Go **** yourself you ignorant, unknowledgable ****.
I don't believe he's saying that Kobe doesn't have the "will to win." He obviously does. Its just that his will and desire doesn't match Jordan's - which is true. You don't have to be either a Jordan or Kobe supporter to acknowledge this.

Its hard to measure things like "will" and "desire," but the only athlete that I would put on Jordan's level in that regard is Muhammad Ali.

[xxxSuperStar]

I don't believe he's saying that Kobe doesn't have the "will to win." He obviously does. Its just that his will and desire doesn't match Jordan's - which is true. You don't have to be either a Jordan or Kobe supporter to acknowledge this.

Its hard to measure things like "will" and "desire," but the only athlete that I would put on Jordan's level in that regard is Muhammad Ali.

Thank you. That is exactly what I was saying.

[ekzistenz]

To me it's Kobe's game.

81 points, 42 minutes, 1.93 PPM
69 points, 50 minutes, 1.38 PPM

That's a huge discrepency.

[EricForman]

sorry, Jordan's 63 in the PLAYOFFS against the eventual champs, and also one of the top 5 greatest basketball teams OF ALL TIME , is more impressive than his 69 or Kobe's 81 against the worse team in the league in the regular season.

And Jordan fans, why even waste breath arguing with Kobe fans, Jordan has done so much more besides the 69, hell I'm a huge Jordan fan and I don't even care about the 69, he has had at least 10-15 more memorable or better performances, most of them when it mattered, WITH THE CHAMPIONSHIP on the line, so let Kobe fans have their 81, it'll be like the way Tmac fans always bring up their 13 in 35 EVERY FREAKING TIME Tmac is being compared to another player. After a few more years of .500 ball and first round exits, that's all the Kobe fans will have.

I can just picture it, in 2009 or so--

Lebron fan: Damn Lebron, back to back MVPs, led his team to the finals, averaged 30 10 and 9 for a whole season.

Kobe fan: So, remember when Kobe had 81?

it's gonna be like that, they're gonna hold on to the 81, that's all they have right now.

I love how one dimensional their thinking is too, it's like we can be arguing who's a better player, and Duncan fans will bring up their team success/win % with Duncan, Lebron fans will bring up his many upsides (youth, athletism), Wade will bring up his amazing performance in the Finals, generally, most fans will have something legit to bring up, something that usually lasts more than one game or has been proven over a few seasons.... Kobe fans wlil just jump in and go "OH YEAH, WELL CAN LEBRON SCORE 81? NOP HE CAN'T" and act like that's enough to justify Kobe as the most important player in the league. Come on man, Duncan barely scores 21 and I'd take Duncan over Kobe every game every time ( and so would most NBA execs, GM, coaches)

[Shepseskaf]

To me it's Kobe's game.

81 points, 42 minutes, 1.93 PPM
69 points, 50 minutes, 1.38 PPM

That's a huge discrepency.
This is just stupid. The real discrepancy here is in the assertion made and the obvious lack of understanding of how the game works by this poster.

While stats are important, you can't reduce a comparison between two games to "points per minute." How retarded is that? You haven't factored in the quality of the opponent, the significance/importance of the game, the venue where it was played, or many other such factors which add many more layers of complexity to this discussion.

There have been some good arguments on both sides in this thread, but please feel free not to join in if a stupid "ppm" criteria is all you're going to contribute.

[Brunch@Five]

sorry, Jordan's 63 in the PLAYOFFS against the eventual champs, and also one of the top 5 greatest basketball teams OF ALL TIME , is more impressive than his 69 or Kobe's 81 against the worse team in the league in the regular season.

so you take 63 in a double-OT loss over 81 or even 69 points in a win? If so, you're one dumb ****

[ManUtd]

I don't believe he's saying that Kobe doesn't have the "will to win." He obviously does. Its just that his will and desire doesn't match Jordan's - which is true. You don't have to be either a Jordan or Kobe supporter to acknowledge this.

Its hard to measure things like "will" and "desire," but the only athlete that I would put on Jordan's level in that regard is Muhammad Ali.


Umm, check your facts. Kobe's will to win is incredible. On the par with Jordan's. In fact, Tex Winter said that Kobe works harder than Jordan. That's saying something.
Kobe and Jordan are equals when it comes to will, desire and hard work.

[Brunch@Five]

Umm, check your facts. Kobe's will to win is incredible.

"will to win" can hardly be called a "fact"

[Lei]

If I saw Kobe's 81 point game on dvd I'd be willing to pay up to $7 for it. On the other hand, I wouldn't even waste my time watching Jordan's 69 point game in overtime.

This is funny as hell, I am not sure whether it is because the post is so random yet speaks the truth to a large degree, or because it's the first post titled "pointless thread" by a poster called "MJ23overrated".

If Kobe's 81 points game and MJ's 69 points game were both on dvd available at the same price and I only had the money for one I'd pick Kobe's for sure. I don't know why, maybe it's because video nowadays are in better quality or something.

[Loki]

This is funny as hell, I am not sure whether it is because the post is so random yet speaks the truth to a large degree, or because it's the first post titled "pointless thread" by a poster called "MJ23overrated".

If Kobe's 81 points game and MJ's 69 points game were both on dvd available at the same price and I only had the money for one I'd pick Kobe's for sure. I don't know why, maybe it's because video nowadays are in better quality or something.

I'd pick Kobe's too, simply because it's more historic. Doesn't make it the better overall game, however. :P

[MaxFly]

If Kobe's 81 points game and MJ's 69 points game were both on dvd available at the same price and I only had the money for one I'd pick Kobe's for sure. I don't know why, maybe it's because video nowadays are in better quality or something.

There's an element of theatrics present in the Bryant game that just isn't present in the Jordan game. The 81 points itself is somewhat exciting, but the nature of the feat, the circumstances under which the points were scored, and the effect that Bryant's performance had on both teams, almost single handedly turning the game around, all lend to the allure of the 81 point game.

One thing about Jordan's performance is that the Bulls at a point had a decent lead. It was the Cavs who had come back to make the game close inspite of Jordan's huge numbers. It's almost the reverse of what generally makes for exciting games... one player is putting up big numbers for the duration of a game, his team develops a decent lead, but it's the other team comes back to almost win... It's almost an anticlimax.

On the other hand, the Lakers were down by a lot of points to the Raptors. A team that many have described as the worst defensive team in quite some time had managed to lock up almost all of Bryant's teammates with the exception of a few and were having their way with the them. Commentators were saying that the game was over and most of the Lakers were playing as if it was over. Bryant then leads the team back from being down big, the energy of his teammates picks up as a result of his play and they too begin to play better, they turn a large deficit into a large lead, Bryant scores the second most points in NBA history, and they win. People like comeback stories, especially ones that are theatrical and improbable. This is likely why Bryant's game is more exciting for some. This certainly doesn't mean that it was a better performance, and I think that this is where some get mixed up. They don't differentiate between the more exciting performance and the better all around performance.

[Lei]

There's an element of theatrics present in the Bryant game that just isn't present in the Jordan game. The 81 points itself is somewhat exciting, but the nature of the feat, the circumstances under which the points were scored, and the effect that Bryant's performance had on both teams, almost single handedly turning the game around, all lend to the allure of the 81 point game.

One thing about Jordan's performance is that the Bulls at a point had a decent lead. It was the Cavs who had come back to make the game close inspite of Jordan's huge numbers. It's almost the reverse of what generally makes for exciting games... one player is putting up big numbers for the duration of a game, his team develops a decent lead, but it's the other team comes back to almost win... It's almost an anticlimax.

On the other hand, the Lakers were down by a lot of points to the Raptors. A team that many have described as the worst defensive team in quite some time had managed to lock up almost all of Bryant's teammates with the exception of a few and were having their way with the them. Commentators were saying that the game was over and most of the Lakers were playing as if it was over. Bryant then leads the team back from being down big, the energy of his teammates picks up as a result of his play and they too begin to play better, they turn a large deficit into a large lead, Bryant scores the second most points in NBA history, and they win. People like comeback stories, especially ones that are theatrical and improbable. This is likely why Bryant's game is more exciting for some. This certainly doesn't mean that it was a better performance, and I think that this is where some get mixed up. They don't differentiate between the more exciting performance and the better all around performance.

Great post overall and I think it's pretty reasonable to say Jordan had the better all around performance. I'd just like to point out that the thread was actually about "the more impressive" performance as the thread starter put it:


Which is more impressive? I have to say Jordans. 18 rebounds while scoring 69 points is unheard of.

So I think the criteria is rather the degree of "impressiveness", which is why I'd take Kobe's for those key factors you mentioned above such as the second highest score in history, a dramatic comeback (singlehandedly) under pressure instead of almost blowing a lead, etc.

[hotsizzle]

sorry, Jordan's 63 in the PLAYOFFS against the eventual champs, and also one of the top 5 greatest basketball teams OF ALL TIME , is more impressive than his 69 or Kobe's 81 against the worse team in the league in the regular season.

And Jordan fans, why even waste breath arguing with Kobe fans, Jordan has done so much more besides the 69, hell I'm a huge Jordan fan and I don't even care about the 69, he has had at least 10-15 more memorable or better performances, most of them when it mattered, WITH THE CHAMPIONSHIP on the line, so let Kobe fans have their 81, it'll be like the way Tmac fans always bring up their 13 in 35 EVERY FREAKING TIME Tmac is being compared to another player. After a few more years of .500 ball and first round exits, that's all the Kobe fans will have.

I can just picture it, in 2009 or so--

Lebron fan: Damn Lebron, back to back MVPs, led his team to the finals, averaged 30 10 and 9 for a whole season.

Kobe fan: So, remember when Kobe had 81?

it's gonna be like that, they're gonna hold on to the 81, that's all they have right now.

I love how one dimensional their thinking is too, it's like we can be arguing who's a better player, and Duncan fans will bring up their team success/win % with Duncan, Lebron fans will bring up his many upsides (youth, athletism), Wade will bring up his amazing performance in the Finals, generally, most fans will have something legit to bring up, something that usually lasts more than one game or has been proven over a few seasons.... Kobe fans wlil just jump in and go "OH YEAH, WELL CAN LEBRON SCORE 81? NOP HE CAN'T" and act like that's enough to justify Kobe as the most important player in the league. Come on man, Duncan barely scores 21 and I'd take Duncan over Kobe every game every time ( and so would most NBA execs, GM, coaches)

who started this thread? was it a kobe fan? NO. and Kobe had done alot more than 81 to be remembered for, haters like you are bringin up kobe's 81 and how insiginificant it was, when you damn well if Lebron or wade had that, you and others would be all over their nuts. you seem to be puttin words into our mouth, kobe's arguement against the rest of them cats is not his 81 pts game and all that, hes actually more skilled than lebron/wade and plays 10x better defense, clutchness, etc... keep dreaming about that scenario in 2009...Im sure Kobe proved you wrong before and will prove you wrong again

[EricForman]

Kobe doesn't have the will? Go **** yourself you ignorant, unknowledgable ****.


lol, why are you angry like saying "kobe doesnt have the will" isthe most ridiculous statement ever?

what happened in game 7 this year?

I also came up with a fool proof way to counter the Kobe fans about game 7.

Since Kobe had such a quiet, downright bad second half, in the most important game of the year. you can only come to two conclusions--

1: He tried his best but that mediocre second half was all he could do

2: He didn't try his best

so what is it man, did he try his best but stunked it up in game 7 or did he not try his best ? either way, either he ain't that good or he quit... i'm choosing the latter, but I want you, Kobe fan to choose.


so you take 63 in a double-OT loss over 81 or even 69 points in a win? If so, you're one dumb ****

It doesn't necessarily mean I "take" losing over winning, you moron. It simply means I believe the 63 point performance was more impressive than the 69 and the 81 because of the competition and the situation. Maybe your dumba** hasn't figured it out yet, and alot of Kobe 81 point lovers have not, but regular season usually tend to be a lot less competitive than the playoffs, especialy when a team is already out of contention (like the raptors). Jordan dropped 63 on one of the top five teams of ALL TIME (think about it for a second, top five nba team ALL TIME in the history of all teams), yes it would have been nicer if the Bulls had won that game, but you can't use the bulls lost to simply discredit the performance as impressive. 81 vs the worse team in the league in a meaningless regular season, or 63 against a TOP FIVE TEAM ALL TIME PLAYING THEIR ABSOLUTE HARDEST....... I take 63. You probably wouldn't understand though, cause you're a moron.

[EricForman]

who started this thread? was it a kobe fan? NO. and Kobe had done alot more than 81 to be remembered for, haters like you are bringin up kobe's 81 and how insiginificant it was, when you damn well if Lebron or wade had that, you and others would be all over their nuts. you seem to be puttin words into our mouth, kobe's arguement against the rest of them cats is not his 81 pts game and all that, hes actually more skilled than lebron/wade and plays 10x better defense, clutchness, etc... keep dreaming about that scenario in 2009...Im sure Kobe proved you wrong before and will prove you wrong
again


Just because you didn't use the 81 points to justify everything doesn't mean most Kobe fans on here don't. Remember, most Laker fans on here are morons. There was a thread a while back debating player you'd most want on your team, I wrote a two paragraph stating solid numbers that Duncan has simply won more and won enough to put him on a historic leve (with bill russell and shaq, im talking about career win %, not number of rings), throw int he fact that Duncan has won over 50 games EVERY YEAR OF HIS CAREER and has done it with multiple supporting cast, including some not-so-great cast, Duncan was the clear choice.

Then some clown Laker fans claims Duncan can barely score 21, let alone 81 so he's not overrateed and aint as good as Kobe. I mean come on, you can't say you don't read sh*t like that on here. People are morons, they only look at stats, they think because Duncan only averaged 18 and 10 last year he's no longer a top 10 player.

I'm sorry, Kobe quit in game 7 this year, so let's stop the "will to win" crap. I'm from LA, and you Laker Kobe bandwagon jumpers annoy me to no end.

[hotsizzle]

Just because you didn't use the 81 points to justify everything doesn't mean most Kobe fans on here don't. Remember, most Laker fans on here are morons. There was a thread a while back debating player you'd most want on your team, I wrote a two paragraph stating solid numbers that Duncan has simply won more and won enough to put him on a historic leve (with bill russell and shaq, im talking about career win %, not number of rings), throw int he fact that Duncan has won over 50 games EVERY YEAR OF HIS CAREER and has done it with multiple supporting cast, including some not-so-great cast, Duncan was the clear choice.

Then some clown Laker fans claims Duncan can barely score 21, let alone 81 so he's not overrateed and aint as good as Kobe. I mean come on, you can't say you don't read sh*t like that on here. People are morons, they only look at stats, they think because Duncan only averaged 18 and 10 last year he's no longer a top 10 player.

I'm sorry, Kobe quit in game 7 this year, so let's stop the "will to win" crap. I'm from LA, and you Laker Kobe bandwagon jumpers annoy me to no end.

I'll give you the first two paragraphs because some laker or kobe fans are like that, but not all are.

I dont agree with the last statement whatsoever. Look at it this way, Kobe had 23 in the first half...and they were down 15, he had to change his style because obviously it wasnt working. Now, I agree that it was wrong because he leaned towards sharing the ball too much. he didnt find the balane. He was unaggressive and didnt show much drive at all. For this I blame Kobe, and I'll admit to that. But there is no way, no way, he would even think of quiting. He hasnt done if for 10 yrs, even when him and shaq were having problems, kobe would always be the one sparking the 4th qtr comebacks...no reason to believe he would quit now. BUt hey, answer this honestly, if kobe would have went out firing in the second half...I guarantee your arguement would be "See, Kobe went back to his old selfish self..blah blah blah"

[Brunch@Five]

It doesn't necessarily mean I "take" losing over winning, you moron. It simply means I believe the 63 point performance was more impressive than the 69 and the 81 because of the competition and the situation. Maybe your dumba** hasn't figured it out yet, and alot of Kobe 81 point lovers have not, but regular season usually tend to be a lot less competitive than the playoffs, especialy when a team is already out of contention (like the raptors). Jordan dropped 63 on one of the top five teams of ALL TIME (think about it for a second, top five nba team ALL TIME in the history of all teams), yes it would have been nicer if the Bulls had won that game, but you can't use the bulls lost to simply discredit the performance as impressive. 81 vs the worse team in the league in a meaningless regular season, or 63 against a TOP FIVE TEAM ALL TIME PLAYING THEIR ABSOLUTE HARDEST....... I take 63. You probably wouldn't understand though, cause you're a moron.

putting up huge stats while losing is meaningless. Isn't that what Kobe haters say all the time? btw, did he even have 50 by the end of regulation that game?

[xxxSuperStar]

who started this thread? was it a kobe fan? NO.

I started this thread and I do like Kobe, I think he is the best SG in the game, but I'm neither a hater or his biggest fan. He is what he is.

The thread was started not to say which is more impressive scoring 81 points in regulation or 69 points in OT. Obviously scoring 81 is more impresive in terms of scoring.

However Jordan grabbed 18 rebounds and had 6 assists among other better numbers during the 69 point performance (refer to 1st post in thread). So the general question is not who is a better scorer, but what impresses you more, a complete game scoring 69 or a dominant 81 point scoring performance. Obviously by the response to this thread there are two catergories of people. One who:

1) Thinks scoring outweighs everything else
2) Is more impressed by a complete game

[MaxFly]

However Jordan grabbed 18 rebounds and had 6 assists among other better numbers during the 69 point performance (refer to 1st post in thread). So the general question is not who is a better scorer, but what impresses you more, a complete game scoring 69 or a dominant 81 point scoring performance. Obviously by the response to this thread there are two catergories of people. One who:

1) Thinks scoring outweighs everything else
2) Is more impressed by a complete game

I think you should further narrow the focus of the question, making sure that people who respond are addressing the stats solely. When you ask who had the more impressive performance, as someone mentioned earlier, a number of factors are involved, not just the stats. Jordan scored 69 points, grabbed 18 rebounds, helped his team to a decent size lead, but inspite of his performance, his team almost lost the game when the Cavs came back and sent the game to overtime. Bryant scored 81 points leading his team back from a large deficit, helped them gain a large lead and revitalized his teammates who were dead prior to his run. Arguments can be made on both sides concerning who had the more impressive performance.

You should simply state that you want to focus on the stats and that you want to confirm that Jordan's game was statistically more impressive that Bryant's.

[xxxSuperStar]

I think you should further narrow the focus of the question, making sure that people who respond are addressing the stats solely. When you ask who had the more impressive performance, as someone mentioned earlier, a number of factors are involved, not just the stats. Jordan scored 69 points, grabbed 18 rebounds, helped his team to a decent size lead, but inspite of his performance, his team almost lost the game when the Cavs came back and sent the game to overtime. Bryant scored 81 points leading his team back from a large deficit, helped them gain a large lead and revitalized his teammates who were dead prior to his run. Arguments can be made on both sides concerning who had the more impressive performance.

You should simply state that you want to focus on the stats and that you want to confirm that Jordan's game was statistically more impressive that Bryant's.

I know that Kobe had a more impressive scoring game and Jordan had a more impressive statistical game already. That's simple to see. I just wanted to know what impresses people more, the scoring or the complete game.

Both teams won their game so I put that as a wash considering, like you said, the Lakers were down 20 to one of the league's worst teams in the first place and the Bulls need OT to win against a good team. When anybody puts up monster scoring games (55+) the games are usually close. I mean you rarely see somebody score a ton in a blowout for a variety of reasons.

[IGGYIVERSON]

even tho this argument is stupid.....

MJ basically as a rookie dropping 63 on possibly the Greatest team of all time still amazes me. the only team that comes close to the 86 Celtics are the 96 Bulls.

i didnt even know who Jordan was when i was watching that game on tv. only thing i knew was that the Celtics were the greatest team on earth.

[lakers-city]

this is crap, there are a lot of teams that are as good as the 86 celtics.

most of the 60s celtics are, wilt's sixers from 67; lakers from 1982, 1985 and 1987; bulls from 1992, sixers from 1983, lakers from 2001, lakers from 1972, there are a lot of teams as good or better than the 86 celtics.

[IGGYIVERSON]

this is crap, there are a lot of teams that are as good as the 86 celtics.

most of the 60s celtics are, wilt's sixers from 67; lakers from 1982, 1985 and 1987; bulls from 1992, sixers from 1983, lakers from 2001, lakers from 1972, there are a lot of teams as good or better than the 86 celtics.

lol keep believing that.

[lakers-city]

the lakers won 5 rings in the 80's 2 of them against boston, they are obviously better.

the celtics won 11 rings in the 50s and 60s, they are obviously better.

[EricForman]

I'll give you the first two paragraphs because some laker or kobe fans are like that, but not all are.

I dont agree with the last statement whatsoever. Look at it this way, Kobe had 23 in the first half...and they were down 15, he had to change his style because obviously it wasnt working. Now, I agree that it was wrong because he leaned towards sharing the ball too much. he didnt find the balane. He was unaggressive and didnt show much drive at all. For this I blame Kobe, and I'll admit to that. But there is no way, no way, he would even think of quiting. He hasnt done if for 10 yrs, even when him and shaq were having problems, kobe would always be the one sparking the 4th qtr comebacks...no reason to believe he would quit now. BUt hey, answer this honestly, if kobe would have went out firing in the second half...I guarantee your arguement would be "See, Kobe went back to his old selfish self..blah blah blah"


Hotsizzle, I have respect for you. You are indeed a legit "laker/kobe" fan. One of VERY FEW on this board. I apologize to YOU for generalizing Kobe fans as clowns on this board.

[hotsizzle]

Hotsizzle, I have respect for you. You are indeed a legit "laker/kobe" fan. One of VERY FEW on this board. I apologize to YOU for generalizing Kobe fans as clowns on this board.

Thanks for the praise and the respect. :cheers:

[StarJordan]

If I saw Kobe's 81 point game on dvd I'd be willing to pay up to $7 for it. On the other hand, I wouldn't even waste my time watching Jordan's 69 point game in overtime.

Dumbfuk Jordan's videos outsell Kobe's videos probably by 10:1

[G-Funk]

Im currently working on a video that shows their top 3 scoring games, shot for shot!

[G-Funk]

Its gonna be sick!

[Round Mound]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTMFTQFvO_8

Ill Take Barkley`s 56 Points/14 Rebounds/4 Assists/3Stls/1Block on 74.2% FG vs the Warriors in the Play-Offs Game 3 with Only 31 Shots, Going 11 fgs/11 fgas and 27 Points in the 1st Quarter Over Both MJ`s and Kobe`s Game.

He Should Have Been More a of a Ball Hogg and Take More Shots...But Wait Barkley Wasn`t Close to a Ballhogg (he needed only 14 FGAs PG to Score over 20 and That Includes his Dummy 3 Pointers) While Kobe and MJ Where...Nothing Against Them but They Where Both Ballhoggs

[Shaquille O'Neal]

We all know Kobe scored 81, but take a look at Kobe's 81 point game vs. Jordan's 69 point game vs the Cavs on 3/28/90

Kobe 81 points (28-46 63% shooting), 6 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 steal, 1 block, 3 turnover

Jordan 69 points(23-37 62% shooting), 18 rebounds, 6 assists, 4 steals, 1 block, 2 turnovers

Which is more impressive? I have to say Jordans. 18 rebounds while scoring 69 points is unheard of.

BTW, this game is on ESPN classic for you younger whippersnappers who have no idea how good Jordan was. Actually, there ESPN classic is running great NBA games all day today.


Lettuce not forget which team was better defensive either. The '90 Cavs that were getting ready for the playoffs and primed and ready for their rival Bulls or a '06 Canadian team.

I've watched both entire games. Kobe was shooting the hell out of the ball, but IMO the edge goes to Mike for the rebounds plus he did it against VASTLY superior defense.

[JohnnySic]

Kobe's 81 point game reeked of the spoonfeeding Robinson got during his 71 point game. Not to the same extent, but similar.

[pauk]

Jordan, because he contributed more overall and didnt need to be spoonfedd and didnt need to padd the extra points in the 4th quarter with a blowout lead.... and he faced tougher competition.

[KOBE143]

Jordan, because he contributed more overall and didnt need to be spoonfedd and didnt need to padd the extra points in the 4th quarter with a blowout lead.... and he faced tougher competition.
LOL at this clown.. :facepalm The game was close and they need Kobe to score for them to win.. They were down by double digits and Kobe brought them back and win the game.. Stop hating dude..

Kobe 81 points >>> LeBrick .5 cheap ring

[DaHeezy]

It's a shame that the 81 point game is tied to Kobe's name. Had it been flipped around and Kobe had the 69/16 game ISH would scream, "yeah but Jordan scored more."

I don't agree with the "spoonfed" comments. In retrospect the game was still close. You give the ball to the guy who's hot and unstoppable. That's called "BASKETBALL". The Lakers were down by alot and the outcome is they won the game. What more do you want? The fact that it's Kobe Bryant seems to justify criticism with all you folks.

[andgar923]

It's a shame that the 81 point game is tied to Kobe's name. Had it been flipped around and Kobe had the 69/16 game ISH would scream, "yeah but Jordan scored more."

I don't agree with the "spoonfed" comments. In retrospect the game was still close. You give the ball to the guy who's hot and unstoppable. That's called "BASKETBALL". The Lakers were down by alot and the outcome is they won the game. What more do you want? The fact that it's Kobe Bryant seems to justify criticism with all you folks.

I think the biggest problem people have isn't that he scored 81, or that he kept shooting. It was the way he went about it.

He was only there to score, nothing more nothing less. He wasn't even there to attempt to play team ball, run plays or anything. And we've seen that a number of times with him, win or lose, he's gonna get his regardless. That's what people don't like about him.

Even if MJ shoots a lot, he still does it in the flow of the game for the most part. Most of his shots are still inside the team framework with a win in mind.

Kobe forces things more.

[b1imtf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTMFTQFvO_8

Ill Take Barkley`s 56 Points/14 Rebounds/4 Assists/3Stls/1Block on 74.2% FG vs the Warriors in the Play-Offs Game 3 with Only 31 Shots, Going 11 fgs/11 fgas and 27 Points in the 1st Quarter Over Both MJ`s and Kobe`s Game.

He Should Have Been More a of a Ball Hogg and Take More Shots...But Wait Barkley Wasn`t Close to a Ballhogg (he needed only 14 FGAs PG to Score over 20 and That Includes his Dummy 3 Pointers) While Kobe and MJ Where...Nothing Against Them but They Where Both Ballhoggs
Wtf

[pauk]

LOL at this clown.. :facepalm The game was close and they need Kobe to score for them to win.. They were down by double digits and Kobe brought them back and win the game.. Stop hating dude..

Kobe 81 points >>> LeBrick .5 cheap ring

Ahhh... the legendary Kobetard delusion & lies to try and cover what really happened.......

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/pbp/200601220LAL.html#q4

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc500/pauk666/statpadding.png




Those were COMPLETELY not necessary, even if he left with 3:26 to go and his teammates wouldnt score anything during that time they would still have won by 11 points....

With 2:36 remaining the Raptors removed their entire starting lineup... who cares? Kobe still stayed and enjoyed it even more with 7 unnecessary points... During especially this time he got mad at his teammates if they didnt give him the ball, they were forced to feed him the ball even when completely open... It was clear he was hunting for as many points as possible.... Even with 20-40 seconds left he was struggling like hell to try and get a foul/shot, Vujacic couldnt get him the ball and stood completely open with 10 seconds left, finally had to take the shot himself... he tilted his head down and start moving to the bench with 4 seconds left.... oh mi oh my.... why didnt he stay? he could have milked out extra points during those 4 seconds... what a slacker....

This is disrespectful to the game, its absolutely discusting...

Just stop it... stop...

Those last few minutes completely destroyed it, he should have left with around 2-3 minutes remaining... with a respectable ~70 points... and a respectable lead... and a fantastic game.... that would show he simply did what he did to secure the lead, nothing else, it would have been very classy.......... Do you know how many times Jordan had these oppurtunities to milk out as many points as possible? But he never did... never... I bet when Jordan saw those last 2-3 minutes of this game he simply facepalmed.... What Kobe did there was just desperate, low...

[NumberSix]

Lol. This is not even close.

[DFish]

EricForman, you were a moron six years ago and still are today.

[SourPatchKids]

No matter how you look at it, 81 points is pretty unreal. But factor in Jordan's assists, rebounds, and steals make it a tough call.

[Kobr]

Lol. This is not even close.

This. A 12 point difference is substantial. Kobe scored 17.4% more points than Jordan. Not that close.

[NewYorkNoPicks]

are you trying to say that MJ's 69 was better than Kobe's 81? go to the store and buy something that costs 81 dollars but instead only pay 69 dollars and 18 pennies and see if the clerk thinks its better than 81

This is the dumbest analogy ive heard in my entire life

[chazzy]

The value/impact of ~15 rebounds certainly changes when it's a Jordan or Kobe game, huh?

[Calabis]

As far as a individual offensive display, Kobe's is better. If you watch Jordan's 69, it comes much more within the realm of the offense. The better overall game was Jordan, but the better pure display of offensive brilliance was Kobe Bryant, I think he even kicked one in:oldlol:

[Money 23]

Easily Jordan's game. With reason. He gave you 69, but his context makes his game better. 69 big ones, with 6 dimes (2 points a bucket means he affected 81 points on the score boards), plus the 18 rebounds ... against one of the best team's in the conference.

And MJ didn't start raining buckets until he came down with a tweaked ankle, and got pissed when the Cleveland crowd was cheering while he was down with injury.

I recently re-watched the Kobe game, and remove 6 years and have a clear head and it is one of the most self serving disgusting performances I have EVER seen. Like everything in Kobe's career, it seemed to come out contrived, pre-planned, and forced.

Kobe went into the game with the mind set of trying to score AS MANY points as possible. Do little else. Just score. Against a BOTTOM FEEDER.

I never saw MJ going into a game trying to score AS MANY points as possible, at the expense of everything else in the game. MJ would make statement games where he'd give a team 50 but he did it in the flow of the offense, still got others involved, played the game organically ... and wasn't self indulgent trying to go over a certain mark.

I forget what exact point in the game, but when I just recently re-watched it ... when Kobe was in the mid 60's the Lakers had handily taken control of the game. They were doubling him, and he could have EASILY got others involved, but he kept shooting. I had fun watching it in 2006, but watching it now it was embarrassing. No wonder his teammates didn't even seem all that thrilled for him.

If MJ went out with the purpose to score as much as he wanted to in a game, everyone else be damned, and truly put out a selfish contrived performance like Kobe's 81 ... he could've replicated it quite easily.

As always, context is what separates things. The devil is in the details, and the WAY in which Kobe got his points. It's the mentality. Not to mention this was against an atrocious defense, in a meaningless regular season game, against one of the worst teams in the league.

I've never seen Kobe go off in legendary mode for epic memorable games in the playoffs or against elite competition like Mike did when expected. Kobe if anything usually underperforms and disappoints in those game.

And I don't even want to hear quality of defenders, athleticism bull sh1t excuse for Kobe. Ehlo was a good scrappy defender even if non athletic. Jalen Rose was old as dirt and always un athletic and so was Mo Pete at that point in his career. Defensive capabilities has never been only attributed to athletic ability, anyway.

Plus, watching the Jordan 69 video, he was sinking mid range jumpers with two and three men coming at him ... most note worthy 6'10 and 7'0 Hot Rod Williams (very athletic) and Brad Daughrety.

MJ as usual wins in the contest with Kobe. Let's see Bean do this in the playoffs with any sort of regularity. Cause it won't happen. His one playoff 50 point game came in an overtime contest with a team whose ENTIRE philosophy was to NOT play defense.

Call to Kobe stans: eliteballer, MaxFly ... rebuttal?

:biggums:

[Calabis]

Let's not forget Kobe also scored 62 in 3 quarters and outscored an NBA Finals team.

62 in 3 quarters or 69 in overtime?

:roll:

Kobe shot 6 less times in 3 quarters, he also shot 2 more free throws in three quarters than MJ did in a OT game :roll:

[Heavincent]

As far as a individual offensive display, Kobe's is better. If you watch Jordan's 69, it comes much more within the realm of the offense. The better overall game was Jordan, but the better pure display of offensive brilliance was Kobe Bryant, I think he even kicked one in:oldlol:

Kobe was playing within the realm of the offense for most of the first half...but it wasn't working at all. They were down nearly 20 to the Raptors at one point. The Lakers came back when Kobe started playing hero ball.

[chazzy]

How is it a preconceived goal when his team was DOWN double digits? He scored 55 points in the second half.. he didn't come out gunning from the get go

[Money 23]

Kobe shot 6 less times in 3 quarters, he also shot 2 more free throws in three quarters than MJ did in a OT game
Dude well that was the season where they gave out free-throws like candy.

[Money 23]

How is it a preconceived goal when his team was DOWN double digits?
Purely coincidental. You can see it in his mannerisms coming out he was looking to ONLY score.


He scored 55 points in the second half.. he didn't come out gunning from the get go
Those 55 points weren't needed ... JUST from Bryant.

The Lakers recaptured the lead I believe late 3rd quarter or very early 4th.

There is a point in the game where Kobe has 60+ and the Lakers have the definitive lead and Kobe is still shooting with double teams for what reason?

All he needed to do was use his ability to create to get others involved.

:oldlol: @ acting like all those 2nd half 55 points from Bryant and Bryant alone were pure heroics to win the game.

My jesus you Kobe stans are too much sometimes. There is about 11 - 15 points from the 81 that weren't necessary in the slightest. Or could've been easily used to help a teammates confidence.

This site has become overrun by the Kobe apostle generation.

[Bigsmoke]

MJ

[chazzy]

I've never seen Kobe go off in legendary mode for epic memorable games in the playoffs or against elite competition like Mike did when expected.
And just lol at this. Just because you've stopped watching the NBA since your boy retired, doesn't mean these games haven't happened.

Did you not see what Odom was doing that game? He couldn't do a thing. Kobe was hot and rode it for an entire game. I don't understand why you Jordan stans are so.. offended.. that he rode a hot hand. Just sit back and be entertained.

[Heavincent]

I've never seen Kobe go off in legendary mode for epic memorable games in the playoffs or against elite competition like Mike did when expected. Kobe if anything usually underperforms and disappoints in those game.


Guess you haven't paying attention then.

[Money 23]

And just lol at this. Just because you've stopped watching the NBA since your boy retired, doesn't mean these games haven't happened.
Son, I've seen Kobe's career come and go.

I was on the boards rooting for him time and time again ... believe me I'm objective when it comes to Kobe.

And watched him disappoint over and over in the playoffs and Finals. The most memorable Kobe games from the playoffs were his 48 v.s. the Nuggets in the 1st round in 2008, and his 50 against Phoenix in game 6 in 2006.

That's it. He just hasn't had many solo legendary games in the playoffs. Kobe / Laker stans still clinging to a self indulgent regular season game from 2006. It's pathetic.

[chazzy]

Son, I've seen Kobe's career come and go.

I was on the boards rooting for him time and time again (Samurai Swoosh) ... believe me I'm objective when it comes to Kobe.

And watched him disappoint over and over in the playoffs and Finals. The most memorable Kobe games from the playoffs were his 48 v.s. the Nuggets in the 1st round in 2008, and his 50 against Phoenix in game 6 in 2006.

That's it. He just hasn't had many solo legendary games in the playoffs. Kobe / Laker stans still clinging to a self indulgent regular season game from 2006. It's pathetic.
Oh I didn't know you were Sam Swoosh. You have an angrier tone on this account :oldlol:

[Money 23]

Guess you haven't paying attention then.
The only individual legendary games that immediately come to mind in recent history are as follows.

LeBron v.s. Boston ECF game 6 (2012) ... entire reputation on the line, immence hate and a country wanting you to fail. RISES above.

LeBron v.s. Detroit (2007)

Kobe's had some good ones ... his game 6 v.s. Denver (2009), game 1 v.s. Magic (Finals 2009), his 3rd quarter game 5 v.s. Boston (Finals 2010)

But please son, nothing legendary. Don't try to school me I was there to watch it all, and I've forgot more ball than you ever thought of man.

[Calabis]

Kobe was playing within the realm of the offense for most of the first half...but it wasn't working at all. They were down nearly 20 to the Raptors at one point. The Lakers came back when Kobe started playing hero ball.

All Im saying is that if he doesn't go into that hero mode, he probably doesn't shoot that many times...much more indivdual play in the Kobe game than the Jordan game, but u can't knock him, dude was blazing hot...even me a Jordan guy knows peak "on fire"... Kobe is more dangerous cause the long ball.

[guy]

I think I'll actually take Kobe's 81. Maybe if Jordan's didn't take OT I would give him the edge.

I don't see why people are bitching about Kobe's game that much. Who cares? Its literally the one comparison Kobe wins over Jordan :oldlol:

[Heavincent]

Son, I've seen Kobe's career come and go.

I was on the boards rooting for him time and time again ... believe me I'm objective when it comes to Kobe.

And watched him disappoint over and over in the playoffs and Finals. The most memorable Kobe games from the playoffs were his 48 v.s. the Nuggets in the 1st round in 2008, and his 50 against Phoenix in game 6 in 2006.

That's it. He just hasn't had many solo legendary games in the playoffs. Kobe / Laker stans still clinging to a self indulgent regular season game from 2006. It's pathetic.

48/16 vs the Kings in 01
45/10 vs the Kings in 01
45/10 vs the Spurs in 01
50 vs the Suns in 06
49/10 vs the Nuggets in 08
40/6/3 on 60% vs the Rockets in 09
Averaged 34/6/6 on 48% in the 09 WCF (2 40 point games in this series)
40/8/8 vs the Magic in the 09 Finals
Averaged 34/8/7 on 52% vs the Suns in 2010 WCF

Those are just a few of his memorable playoff games. He has a shitload of 30+ point performances. Top 3 all time in that category I think. lol at him not being a great playoff performer. Just laughable.

[Calabis]

48/16 vs the Kings in 01
45/10 vs the Kings in 01
45/10 vs the Spurs in 01
50 vs the Suns in 06
49/10 vs the Nuggets in 08
40/6/3 on 60% vs the Rockets in 09
Averaged 34/6/6 on 48% in the 09 WCF (2 40 point games in this series)
40/8/8 vs the Magic in the 09 Finals
Averaged 34/8/7 on 52% vs the Suns in 2010 WCF

Those are just a few of his memorable playoff games. He has a shitload of 30+ point performances. Top 3 all time in that category I think. lol at him not being a great playoff performer. Just laughable.

Pacers in Finals his run at the end of the game

[LakersReign]

I think I'll actually take Kobe's 81. Maybe if Jordan's didn't take OT I would give him the edge.

I don't see why people are bitching about Kobe's game that much. Who cares? Its literally the one comparison Kobe wins over Jordan :oldlol:

Yeah....cuz Lebron supposedly has so much more over Jordan than Kobe does....right?:sleeping

[Money 23]

48/16 vs the Kings in 01
45/10 vs the Kings in 01
45/10 vs the Spurs in 01
50 vs the Suns in 06
49/10 vs the Nuggets in 08
40/6/3 on 60% vs the Rockets in 09
Averaged 34/6/6 on 48% in the 09 WCF (2 40 point games in this series)
40/8/8 vs the Magic in the 09 Finals
Averaged 34/8/7 on 52% vs the Suns in 2010 WCF

Those are just a few of his memorable playoff games. He has a shitload of 30+ point performances. Top 3 all time in that category I think. lol at him not being a great playoff performer. Just laughable.
None of those were legendary performances, kid. Some great performances no doubt, but nothing awe inspiring.

Not an individual game in that lot that serves as a memory. That is a microcosm of who Kobe Bryant was as a player. Something we will always remember him for ... a stamp on NBA playoff / Finals history.

No the way Kobe stans and the moronic latin cholo Laker fan base percieve Kobe's reputation as a player on a self indulgent 81 point regular season game.

You listed a damn series in there haha ... in the vast majority of these cases, given Kobe's team, he was the favorite in the series.

There wasn't a series of events where Kobe overcame some obstacle and just did something no one would've expected.

The closest Kobe has EVER come in recent history to a truly memorable and legendary performance was in the 2010 Finals. Boston was roughing them up, showing signs they were the better team (and w/ Perk, I think they were) ... he had that STUNNING 19 point 3rd quarter.

And that's when I said "wow, the self entitled black mamba is finally going to do his venomous 81 point thing in an actual MEANINGUL game with something on the line" ... and then he didn't duplicate it in the 4th. And failed to meet legendary expectations once again.

That was his opportunity. To seperate himself and become a MEMORY. The way we remember past legends stand out games in a HIGH pressure and intensity atmosphere. But he blew it. That year given his physical abilities was the last time he'd be able to do it on an EPIC scale against a very difficult opponent. That opportunity is gone.

The most lasting Kobe legendary memory is how he took over in the final minutes for Team USA in the gold medal game in 2008. And they wouldn't have even been in the game if it wasn't for the clutch-ness of D-Wade through 3 quarters.

All those games you mentioned, no casual or even regular NBA fan lists those as LEGENDARY games. I get it, that's your guy. And he's easily the 2nd greatest SG of all-time. But please, hop off his d1ck ... lay off and stay off.

I'd go so far to say even Jerry West has had more truly legendary type performances in the playoffs or Finals. Elgin Baylor as well.

[Odinn]

The value/impact of ~15 rebounds certainly changes when it's a Jordan or Kobe game, huh?
12 more rebounds + 4 more assists + 1 more steal + 1 less turnover > 12 points

Kobe played 42 mins and Jordan played 50 mins. Their PER36 statline would be like this;
Kobe - 69.4/5.1/1.7/2.6/0.9 (69/5/2)
Jordan - 49.7/13.0/4.3/2.9/0.7 (50/13/4)

[guy]

Yeah....cuz Lebron supposedly has so much more over Jordan than Kobe does....right?:sleeping
:wtf: what the Hell is your issue? Who the **** brought up Lebron :oldlol: ?

[LakersReign]

:wtf: what the Hell is your issue? Who the **** brought up Lebron :oldlol: ?

So......we're suppose to believe that you dissin' Kobe in comparison to Jordan(like ALL Lebron fans do) has nothing to do with you, being a bandwagon Lebron fan....huh? Riiiiiiiiiiiight:rolleyes:

Oh, and by the way....Page 1:

Jordan x1000.

How can say with a straight face that Kobe's was more impressive? You people saying that are the same ones complaining about the rules today against defending wing-players. You complain about how guys like Wade and Lebron have it so easy nowadays without handchecking.. yet you totally fail to mention that Jordan scored his 69 with guys physically abusing him all game. Kobe would NEVER score 69, let alone 81, in Jordan's day with the same handchecking rules. NEVERhttp://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15422

Try again:no:

[guy]

So......we're suppose to believe that you dissin' Kobe in comparison to Jordan(like ALL Lebron fans do) has nothing to do with you, being a bandwagon Lebron fan....huh? Riiiiiiiiiiiight:rolleyes:

Oh, and by the way....Page 1:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15422

Try again:no:

I'm not a Lebron fan at all.