Raptor Truth - 2009-2010 Preview

[indiefan23]

Check out this preview of the 2009-2010 Raptors... totally revamped team could go any possible way this season. Is Chris Bosh even relevant anymore?

http://www.fullcourtpest.com/2009/10/raptor-truth-2009-2010-preview.html

[indiefan23]

Check out this preview of the 2009-2010 Raptors... totally revamped team could go any possible way this season. Is Chris Bosh even relevant anymore?

http://www.fullcourtpest.com/2009/10/raptor-truth-2009-2010-preview.html

What, no haters? Don't tell me ISH matured while I was gone... Nah. ;)

[IamSofaKing]

I predict a first round exit, and im a raptors fan....

[hayden695]

I predict a first round exit, and im a raptors fan....
This unless they can get a 4 or 5 spot. Then maybe it is a second round exit.

Getting a 5 spot would be nice but unlikely unless Derozan plays great and all the chemistry goes good with the new pick ups.

[Hiei]

Totally revamped team just to get rolled in the first round.

[indiefan23]

Totally revamped team just to get rolled in the first round.

First round? I'm not totally convinced. Who in the east is legitimately rock solid to get that 4'th and 5'th seed? TO could very potentially win a series vs Atlanta, Philly, Detroit or Washington. Thats before you also consider that they have a lot of pieces to make a major mid-season deal too. I think the outlook is positive and they'll be playing one of the most entertaining games out there.

[lukekarts]

If Bosh isn't even relevant, can you send him to Miami at the end of this season please?

We'll enjoy him and your first rounder next season :cheers:

[Real Men Wear Green]

The writer forgot to mention that the entire starting line-up sucks at D and they've only got one real rebounder in said first five. They could have a good offense this year but it's not unstoppable, so if they don't come with some toughness they're not going to win anything of significance. Seeing this team in the playoffs wouldn't be shocking as Bosh is a legit franchise player but if/when they get there they're going to get crushed by the Cavs, Magic, or Celtics. The writer ignores the reason why Mitchell was "hindering" Bargnani's development: His presence makes them soft upfront. Bosh teamed with a tough center is fine, because it makes up for his pseudo-sf game. Bargnani with a guy that defends the basket and rebounds could also be fine, although Bargnani, unlike Bosh, probably isn't worth accommodating to start, as he's basically a 7-foot sg that doesn't rebound, Mark Blount with more range. Having a rookie sg and an unathletic pg known for bad d isn't helping in this regard.

On a different track, who cares if the Raptors have European players? That "point" is stupid and has a borderline racist undertone. The European teams that beat Team USA were actually still in the minority (even the bad American Teams were still well above-average), and it had much to do with Team USA not preparing their team for competition, giving them far less training camp together than other, more serious countries. The Raptors will not enjoy that advantage, nor will they be having a team full of players that see Team USA and feel like they are playing for history and a moment of national pride. There is no real advantage to being of Italian descent (or whatever Bargnani is) in the NBA.

There, you wanted some hate, you got it. Kind of. (I don't really hate the article, just find it a bit biased, full of irrelevent "points," and not totally worth the time it took to read it)

[Real Men Wear Green]

http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww126/indiefan23/dinobots.jpg

This was cool though.

[beasted86]

I stil think the team's composition is broken. All of their players are naturally shooters. Bosh can somewhat mix it up in the post, and get to the foul line... but I think similar to last season, they shoot under 40% as a team and they are almost guaranteed to lose... because they won't have the ability to get to the foul line, play defense, or rebound enough to make up the difference.

Live by the jumpshot, die by the jumpshot. I'm just not sure they will make the playoffs.

[hawksdogsbraves]

The raps would get steamrolled by ATL in the playoffs, assuming they could even make it

[indiefan23]

If Bosh isn't even relevant, can you send him to Miami at the end of this season please?

We'll enjoy him and your first rounder next season :cheers:

Heh, I think the dillo is that if he wants to leave, trade him. A team strategy of trying to convince star players to stay is almost always a fail. TO has to man up, state this is what we are doing, if you want in, stay.

[indiefan23]

The raps would get steamrolled by ATL in the playoffs, assuming they could even make it

Steamrolled? Heh, you must be thinking of that fantasy Hawks team that drafted Chris Paul OR Deron Williams. Which bigs are going to stop Bosh/Bargnani/Hedo from scoring? Atlanta is not exactly a high scoring team, so how will they keep up?

[hoopaddict08]

Toronto will be a first round exit indeed.

I'm looking forward to seeing Amir Johnson possibly getting some playing time.

[indiefan23]

I stil think the team's composition is broken. All of their players are naturally shooters. Bosh can somewhat mix it up in the post, and get to the foul line... but I think similar to last season, they shoot under 40% as a team and they are almost guaranteed to lose... because they won't have the ability to get to the foul line, play defense, or rebound enough to make up the difference.

Live by the jumpshot, die by the jumpshot. I'm just not sure they will make the playoffs.

Hmm... last season is nearly meaningless. Its not the same team. Dunno about foul shooting, Hedo attempted over 5 a game last year and a running team is not really that concerned with FT's anyway.

[indiefan23]

The writer forgot to mention that the entire starting line-up sucks at D and they've only got one real rebounder in said first five. They could have a good offense this year but it's not unstoppable, so if they don't come with some toughness they're not going to win anything of significance. Seeing this team in the playoffs wouldn't be shocking as Bosh is a legit franchise player but if/when they get there they're going to get crushed by the Cavs, Magic, or Celtics. The writer ignores the reason why Mitchell was "hindering" Bargnani's development: His presence makes them soft upfront. Bosh teamed with a tough center is fine, because it makes up for his pseudo-sf game. Bargnani with a guy that defends the basket and rebounds could also be fine, although Bargnani, unlike Bosh, probably isn't worth accommodating to start, as he's basically a 7-foot sg that doesn't rebound, Mark Blount with more range. Having a rookie sg and an unathletic pg known for bad d isn't helping in this regard.

Steve Nash was unathletic too... Calderon is one of the best PGs in the league. Again, name someone else who had a 71:1 assist:turnover ratio for a month. He's not going to dunk on your head, but he's more then qualified to run an incredible offense with the right tools around him.

About Bargnani... he's soft? Why? In pretty limited minutes he avg'ed over 5 boards and a block a game. January on he averaged well over 6 boards and close to a block and a half. He's not prime Ben Wallace or Dwight Howard, but during that stretch he was also scoring 20 ppg. With a full season of starters minutes and a game plan that actually suits his and his team's talents, there no reason to not expect that to go up.


On a different track, who cares if the Raptors have European players? That "point" is stupid and has a borderline racist undertone. The European teams that beat Team USA were actually still in the minority (even the bad American Teams were still well above-average), and it had much to do with Team USA not preparing their team for competition, giving them far less training camp together than other, more serious countries. The Raptors will not enjoy that advantage, nor will they be having a team full of players that see Team USA and feel like they are playing for history and a moment of national pride. There is no real advantage to being of Italian descent (or whatever Bargnani is) in the NBA.

Its pretty well known that international players, especially bigs, are taught the skill game. It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with their sports culture. Its hardly stupid at all... or you think its a coincidence that TO is loaded with Euro talent and yes, the stars of those teams that did whip the USA? Esp if you include Garbo from a couple years back.

If you think I'm racist, quick, name the best fundamentally skilled 7 footers. Now tell me where they are from. Theres an easier answer, where are they 'not' from. Bingo.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Steve Nash was unathletic too... Calderon is one of the best PGs in the league. Again, name someone else who had a 71:1 assist:turnover ratio for a month. He's not going to dunk on your head, but he's more then qualified to run an incredible offense with the right tools around him.
Nash isn't dunking on anyone but he's actually a good athlete, he's very good at soccer and has excellent hand-eye coordination. During his (controversial) MVP seasons he was the best drive-and-dish pg in the league. There is nothing special about Calderon's penetration ability. Just because Calderon has a good jumper and court vision does not mean he's Steve Nash. Last season as a full-time starter he averaged 13 points and 9 assists. These are not the statistics that got Steve Nash the MVP award. Calderon isn't even an All-Star. Please stop comparing them.


About Bargnani... he's soft? Why? In pretty limited minutes he avg'ed over 5 boards and a block a game. January on he averaged well over 6 boards and close to a block and a half. He's not prime Ben Wallace or Dwight Howard, but during that stretch he was also scoring 20 ppg. With a full season of starters minutes and a game plan that actually suits his and his team's talents, there no reason to not expect that to go up.
I love how Bargnani's supporters cite these month-stretches of good basketball. Lots of players go hot for a month. Long-term results are what's important, and for Bargnani the results are indicative of a soft big man. He doesn't rebound and he doesn't protect the basket on par with a legit center. Last season, his best season, he averaged 15 points and 5 boards in 31 mpg, which is not "limited minutes" for an NBA big. No, he's certainly no Ben Wallace out there. The problem is that he's not even Marc Gasol out there, who managed to average 7 rebounds despite slightly lower mpg than Bargs. If the Raptors continue to play Bargnani 30+ mpg he could score somewhere in the mid-to-high teens but the Raptors will have no one protecting the basket, and you will soon discover that it's not that great to have a center shooting threes when you're surrendering 110 points per game.

And no, a 7-footer getting a bpg doesn't mean anything. Dirk Nowitzki averages a block. How's his d?

Its pretty well known that international players, especially bigs, are taught the skill game. It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with their sports culture. Its hardly stupid at all... or you think its a coincidence that TO is loaded with Euro talent and yes, the stars of those teams that did whip the USA? Esp if you include Garbo from a couple years back.
Carter forced his way out a few years back and Hedo is the latest in a long list of players trying to fill his spot. Ditto T-Mac. Shawn Marion was a rental that had no intention of sticking around. And we could go on with players that abandoned TO. The Raptors signed Turkoglu because he was the best FA they could get. They drafted Bargnani because the GM was a ****ing idiot (or do you want to argue that he was the best player in his class? lol). They've had Calderon for 4 years, meaning he pre-dates Colangelo and Triano. So your idea that they've bet on loading their team up with European players in order to dominate our domestic products has nothing to do with reality; the conspiracy only exists in your head. In reality the TO management, like any other management, is just trying to assemble the best team they can with the resources at their disposal. Either that, or you can explain to the class what drafting Derozan had to do with the goal of assembling Euro talent. Not to mention the fact that they don't even have Garbajosa anymore, yet you still cite him? Come on.

Your belief that European bigs are more skilled is similarly flawed. We only see the best of their best come into the NBA, as the NBA isn't going to sign anyone from Europe that wasn't considered an elite talent over there. And even with that, how many great post defenders make it over here from Europe? That's half the game. You severely overrate the importance of having a big with long range. When's the last time an NBA Champ started a center that hit from long range? And on a side note, you completely ignore the fact that the Team USA squads that got beat did not prepare as extensively as the other countries...whatever though.


If you think I'm racist, quick, name the best fundamentally skilled 7 footers.
Tim Duncan, Al Jefferson (well ok, he's 6'9, but he plays center), Chris Bosh, and Kevin Garnett. And for the record, I don't think you're especially racist, just found your comment somewhat racist. I was attacking the statement moreso than you personally.

Now tell me where they are from. Theres an easier answer, where are they 'not' from. Bingo.
They're not from Italy, I'll tell you that. FYI, there's a lot more to basketball fundamentals than just jumpshooting ability.

[RaininThrees]

The Raps will start out slow, of that I can assure you. Tough early sched, new players, Hedo and Bosh still getting used to each other due to limited practicing in pre-season... it's a recipe for a slow start. The hate on the team will be widespread, even among the fans. Where they go from there... entirely anyone's guess. They have the offensive talent to get a #4 seed... but the defensive liabilities (thus far, anyway) to hang on for an 8. It's all about how all the new guys gel, how everyone finds their role, etc..... and that's anyone's guess.

[Lyoto15]

The only reason why I will watch the raptors this year..I mean..the highlights is because of deRozan. I think he could be a great player in this league eventually.

[RajonKGcelts]

Why don't they let Bosh walk or do a sign and trade and get someone physical downlow to put with Bargs?

[beasted86]

Why don't they let Bosh walk or do a sign and trade and get someone physical downlow to put with Bargs?
Like who?

What Cs or Pfs are available through trade or free agency who are better than Bosh who can play from the low post & defend the low post?

But you are right... that team needs an Elton Brand. Someone who can defend & play from the low post while being offset by all those shoters. Either that or just force Bosh into the low post... he's effective once he commits himself.

[IamSofaKing]

You guys hate on Bargnani too much... He can be an all star

Mehmet Okur was an all star back '07 averaging 17 PPG, 7 RPG and 2 APG so why cant Bargnani?

[Skywalker]

Raptors lookin' deep. Bosh and Bargs will both improve on defense.

[indiefan23]

The only reason why I will watch the raptors this year..I mean..the highlights is because of deRozan. I think he could be a great player in this league eventually.

I'm pretty big on him too. He'll end up being the steal of a super weak draft. They're talking about starting him this season too so it might be interesting.

[kwajo]

Rapz iz teh gaylordz

[indiefan23]

Nash isn't dunking on anyone but he's actually a good athlete, he's very good at soccer and has excellent hand-eye coordination. During his (controversial) MVP seasons he was the best drive-and-dish pg in the league. There is nothing special about Calderon's penetration ability. Just because Calderon has a good jumper and court vision does not mean he's Steve Nash. Last season as a full-time starter he averaged 13 points and 9 assists. These are not the statistics that got Steve Nash the MVP award. Calderon isn't even an All-Star. Please stop comparing them.

No, it means not being a great athlete is no pre-requisite to being a great point guard. IMHO, there was also nothing controversial about Nash's MVP seasons at all. Seriously, do you think Calderon is a poor athlete? Like, he can't run or dribble or something? Those are Jose's 4'th year stats... in Nash's 4'th season he scored 8.6 points and 4.9 assists. He didn't even crack 9 dimes till his 9'th season. PG has the steepest learning curve in the L and the comparison is more then valid.


I love how Bargnani's supporters cite these month-stretches of good basketball. Lots of players go hot for a month. Long-term results are what's important, and for Bargnani the results are indicative of a soft big man. He doesn't rebound and he doesn't protect the basket on par with a legit center. Last season, his best season, he averaged 15 points and 5 boards in 31 mpg, which is not "limited minutes" for an NBA big.

Month stretch? January to the end of the season is not a month stretch. Over that time he averaged 6.5 boards while scoring ~20 ppg, and well over a block, after finally adjusting to getting minutes. It's his third year dude and he's had to adjust to NBA style defense in that time. People used to say these things about Dirk and where are they now?

You go on about not even 7 boards and that he could score in the mid to high teens. He scored 20 PPG from January to April. Maybe you missed it, but he made a leap last year when given an opportunity. The same leap he would have made had he not been buried on the bench by Mitchell. Its totally reasonable to expect his numbers to get better by half a block and 2 boards as he develops and gets more then 31 minutes, so how can you say 20 ppg, 8.5 RPG and 2 BPG are bad potential stats? You're knocking him by comparing him to guys who's only job on the floor is to board or D up.


And no, a 7-footer getting a bpg doesn't mean anything. Dirk Nowitzki averages a block. How's his d?

This is silly too. Hmm... good enough to make the finals, win an MVP on one of the best teams in NBA history.


The Raptors signed Turkoglu because he was the best FA they could get. They drafted Bargnani because the GM was a ****ing idiot (or do you want to argue that he was the best player in his class? lol).

Uh, he was the best pick. Brandon Roy has come on pretty strong, but there's no way to predict that at draft time. He wasn't Kevin Durant coming out of college at all.


They've had Calderon for 4 years, meaning he pre-dates Colangelo and Triano. So your idea that they've bet on loading their team up with European players in order to dominate our domestic products has nothing to do with reality; the conspiracy only exists in your head.

Uh, who said it was Triano OR Colangelo's idea? Its something that people in Toronto have been talking about for a long time because of all those players leaving. They say "if Americans don't want to stay, don't get them, get European guys who will appreciate the city and love it here."


Your belief that European bigs are more skilled is similarly flawed.

Uh, so what you're really saying is that you just don't know much about Europe or how hoop is taught/played there. ;)


Tim Duncan, Al Jefferson (well ok, he's 6'9, but he plays center), Chris Bosh, and Kevin Garnett.

Heh, yea, none of them are as skilled as Dirk and none of them are 7 footers. Next.


And for the record, I don't think you're especially racist, just found your comment somewhat racist. I was attacking the statement moreso than you personally.

U know, Europe is not like America. There's nothing racist in stating that there are difference between how they train for ball then there is in stating that they eat different food. The statement was no racially based in any way. N e way, thanks for the foolishness. ;0

[indiefan23]

The Raps will start out slow, of that I can assure you. Tough early sched, new players, Hedo and Bosh still getting used to each other due to limited practicing in pre-season... it's a recipe for a slow start. The hate on the team will be widespread, even among the fans. Where they go from there... entirely anyone's guess. They have the offensive talent to get a #4 seed... but the defensive liabilities (thus far, anyway) to hang on for an 8. It's all about how all the new guys gel, how everyone finds their role, etc..... and that's anyone's guess.

Very reasonable... unlike the guy who thinks they'll be a failure cuz 3'rd and 4'th year players aren't all stars yet. ;0

I think it will be a slow start too with a stronger finish. It really hinges on how Calderon develops this year with Bargnani/Bosh/Hedo. There will be 0 problems scoring points. Now if they can commit to a bit of defense. Either way they are going to have one entertaining team to watch.

[Lyoto15]

I'm pretty big on him too. He'll end up being the steal of a super weak draft. They're talking about starting him this season too so it might be interesting.

Good !
I really hope they do start and play him alot.
Personally my favorite player out of this years draft class.

[RaininThrees]

Good !
I really hope they do start and play him alot.
Personally my favorite player out of this years draft class.


He's going to start, I imagine. I think putting him in the line-up with Bosh, Bargs, Calderon and Hedo is a good move. There will be no pressure on him to score points in the line-up, as he'll be the #5 option. It'll allow him to work on his D, rebounding etc a little more, while still getting experience. From what they're talking about, it sounds like he's going to get 7-9 minutes to start the first half and the same in the second, handing it off to Bellinelli and Wright to finish the halves (which is more important, IMO). If his play improves I'm sure he'll get more burn.

[Lyoto15]

Great to hear!
I actually wasn't up to date about his starting position what so ever. Im sure he will impress them up in toronto and play the majority of the minutes sooner or later.

[phoenix18]

Raptors=Dangerous. Elite teams better watch out.

[Zan Tabak]

From what I've seen in preseason. The Raps are still soft on interior D. Could/will be an issue moving forward.

[beasted86]

Maybe I'm just reading the wrong threads... but it seems people keep going overboard describing/comparing players all around this board. What business does Jose Calderon have being mentioned against Steve Nash, or Andrea Bargnani against Dirk Nowitzki?

[Zan Tabak]

Maybe I'm just reading the wrong threads... but it seems people keep going overboard describing/comparing players all around this board. What business does Jose Calderon have being mentioned against Steve Nash, or Andrea Bargnani against Dirk Nowitzki?
Agree, both are poor man versions of the other.

[beasted86]

Agree, both are poor man versions of the other.
Almost poorer than poor.

You can say Beasley is a poor mans version of Jamison... because who is Jamison? an allstar, sure, but he hasn't done much in his career. At best he's a second option, but probably better suited as third.

To call Calderon and Bargnani even a poor mans version of Nash & Dirk is a big compliment. Those are 2 former MVPs you are talking about. At this point, I'm not even sure Bargnani or Calderon can be a legit second option on a contender, let alone first option like those two.

[Take Your Lumps]

http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/Image/D-fence.jpg

["Jesus"]

http://www.arktimes.com/blogs/arkansasblog/Image/D-fence.jpg

Calderon needs to learn that word.

[indiefan23]

Great to hear!
I actually wasn't up to date about his starting position what so ever. Im sure he will impress them up in toronto and play the majority of the minutes sooner or later.

I was seriously pumped about Derozen going into the draft. There were like, 4 people worth much of anything in the whole thing and I never thought his stock would drop that much. He's like Anthony Randolph in that he's totally exciting and unlike the Warriors, they'll give him minutes.

The one thing I really dig about the coaching change... I think Triano realizes that winning long term has little to do with winning short term, and management is on the same page.

[indiefan23]

Maybe I'm just reading the wrong threads... but it seems people keep going overboard describing/comparing players all around this board. What business does Jose Calderon have being mentioned against Steve Nash, or Andrea Bargnani against Dirk Nowitzki?

Well, cuz at this point in his career, Calderon is light years ahead of where Nash was, and at his height, theres no other player in the league who can do with Bargnani does except Dirk. Its pretty obvious. If you take out Bargnani's second year on the bench doing nothing their stats are even similar.

[indiefan23]

Calderon needs to learn that word.

Okay, can 'anyone' explain to me why people say this about point guards? Having a lock down PG is no where near as important as having a point who can run the offense, take care of the ball and make good decisions. Count the rings on Tony Parker's fingers and remember how great Nash's MVP teams were. Consider that TP has started at point on the best perennial defensive team of this decade. Great defensive teams are not built around point guards. They are not. Having a lock down point is really nice to have, but Kirk Hinrich is NOT starting on the Bulls because good D at the 1 is just not that important. The raps are not fantastic on D, and that granted, but to slam Calderon cuz he doesn't 'shut people down' is just silly. Points need to play team D, not lock people up.

[indiefan23]

Almost poorer than poor.

You can say Beasley is a poor mans version of Jamison... because who is Jamison? an allstar, sure, but he hasn't done much in his career. At best he's a second option, but probably better suited as third.

To call Calderon and Bargnani even a poor mans version of Nash & Dirk is a big compliment. Those are 2 former MVPs you are talking about. At this point, I'm not even sure Bargnani or Calderon can be a legit second option on a contender, let alone first option like those two.

Love ISH. ;0 So the PG who's far and away got the best assist:turnover ration in the league and never misses FT's is not capable of playing point on a contender huh?

BTW, comparisons were made, no one stated Barg/Jose were Dirk/Nash. The discussion is about where they're going, not where they are.

[phoenix18]

Whats up indie fan? Good to see you back.

[Huey Freeman]

Like who?

What Cs or Pfs are available through trade or free agency who are better than Bosh who can play from the low post & defend the low post?

But you are right... that team needs an Elton Brand. Someone who can defend & play from the low post while being offset by all those shoters. Either that or just force Bosh into the low post... he's effective once he commits himself.
Would Kaman or Biedrins fit on Toronto well?

[Qwyjibo]

Would Kaman or Biedrins fit on Toronto well?
Absolutely. They are 2 players that I've wanted at C beside Bosh for a while.

[A.M.G.]

The Raptors will probably start too slow to get anything better than the 6th seed. Also, they will not be entertaining. Too many boring, methodical European players.

[Lyoto15]

The Raptors will probably start too slow to get anything better than the 6th seed. Also, they will not be entertaining. Too many boring, methodical European players.

I really don't think they mind the "boring" methodical european players up in toronto...as long as they win.. A win is a win. I never heard san antonio complain about their boring players, and their boring way of play. A win is a win my friend.

[Lyoto15]

The one thing I really dig about the coaching change... I think Triano realizes that winning long term has little to do with winning short term, and management is on the same page.

Good!



He's like Anthony Randolph in that he's totally exciting and unlike the Warriors, they'll give him minutes.

Guess I will have to take my time and actually watch some Toronto ball. I really like randolph as well. Hope he parts with the warriors and nellie really soon.

[ChuckOakley]

I think this team has alot of potential to be good.

One of the most underrated signings this summer was Jarret Jack, a tall stronger defender to make-up for Calderon's lack of D, and Jack can play the 1 or the 2. Really, if I'm Toronto I think Jack, along with Turkoglu and Belinelli's PG skills, makes Calderon expendable for an upgrade either at SG or maybe at C.

I also like the additions of Reggie Evans and Amir Johnson to give Bosh some quality back ups.

If I'm Toronto I look to see what their worst defensive players can bring back.
Calderon and Barganani (+ whatever pieces) for

Iggy + Dally?
SJax + Biedrins?
Davis + Camby/Kaman
etc...

[indiefan23]

Whats up indie fan? Good to see you back.

Heh, you too. I kinda go dormant in not hoop season. ISH gets pretty silly so with no incentive. ;) Back to the blog which is going to be even better this year. ;)

[indiefan23]

The Raptors will probably start too slow to get anything better than the 6th seed. Also, they will not be entertaining. Too many boring, methodical European players.

They're going to be one of the highest scoring teams in the league. Which players are methodical? ;0 Love how people just make up a term thats obviously pretty baseless cuz they wanna slam a team. Methodical is Utah, TO won't be anything like them. They'll hardly have a system at all.

[indiefan23]

I think this team has alot of potential to be good.

One of the most underrated signings this summer was Jarret Jack, a tall stronger defender to make-up for Calderon's lack of D, and Jack can play the 1 or the 2. Really, if I'm Toronto I think Jack, along with Turkoglu and Belinelli's PG skills, makes Calderon expendable for an upgrade either at SG or maybe at C.

I also like the additions of Reggie Evans and Amir Johnson to give Bosh some quality back ups.

If I'm Toronto I look to see what their worst defensive players can bring back.
Calderon and Barganani (+ whatever pieces) for

Iggy + Dally?
SJax + Biedrins?
Davis + Camby/Kaman
etc...

I totally think Calderon is worth keeping, but this is what I'm talking about. The Raps are like, 8 or 9 deep with quality players. They've got a million different trade scenarios they can execute. Their off season was great!

[raptorfan_dr07]

Seeing this team in the playoffs wouldn't be shocking as Bosh is a legit franchise player but if/when they get there they're going to get crushed by the Cavs, Magic, or Celtics.

I think that's the likely fate of whoever finishes with the 6-8 seed(I don't see Boston, Orlando, or Cleveland finishing any lower than 3). Those three teams are in a class of their own out East. In order for the Raptors to possibly avoid that fate, they'd have to finish either 4th or 5th which I don't really see likely. Atlanta has made some nice moves to fill out their bench this summer and will probably remain in the 4 spot. They're definitely better than us. Miami also has the possibility of finishing ahead of us because of Wade alone.

[beasted86]

Well, cuz at this point in his career, Calderon is light years ahead of where Nash was, and at his height, theres no other player in the league who can do with Bargnani does except Dirk. Its pretty obvious. If you take out Bargnani's second year on the bench doing nothing their stats are even similar.
Yeah, maybe it's not such a good idea I keep entering these types of threads with fans with this type of homer bias, then try and debate with you guys.

Calderon light years ahead of Nash? How much have you had to drink. Calderon averaged 12.8 PPG 8.9 AST on 49% FG, 40% 3PT, 98% FT and "led" (more like role playered) his team straight to the lottery.... Nash at this same exact age was averaging 17.9 PPG 7.7 AST on 48% FG, 45% 3PT, 88% FT on basically double the FTAs.... and was actually helping to "lead" the team to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

I'm really baffled how you can say such an annoyingly biased thing? :confusedshrug: when the results are obvious.

I don't even want to get into Barg vs. Dirk, that's just really disgusting. It makes me sick to the stomach to think anyone thinks Bargnani is comparable to Dirk... under any circumstance. What Bargnani is doing now @ 23, doesn't even compare to what Dirk was doing @ 21. Because Dirk was more efficient in all areas, and he averaged what he averaged for a full year, not for x given months under this and this circumstance... all while resulting in a disgustingly low win percentage.

[beasted86]

Love ISH. ;0 So the PG who's far and away got the best assist:turnover ration in the league and never misses FT's is not capable of playing point on a contender huh?

BTW, comparisons were made, no one stated Barg/Jose were Dirk/Nash. The discussion is about where they're going, not where they are.

No. A team with Calderon as the second option, probably isn't going anywhere. Nash was the second option on Dallas, and he was a legit 2nd option. Calderon is a poorer than poor mans version of him, no matter how efficient he is. His impact on wins, and the game in general are far poorer.

And, really... there's no reason to think either Calderon or Bargnani are headed to the level of Nash or Dirk because as I stated, at the very same age, both of them were loads better... and both went on to eventually be MVPs. I'll just tell you this right now... Calderon and Bargnani will never ever, ever, ever, be the MVP of the NBA. That might sound harsh, or like I'm hating... but it's the truth.

[beasted86]

Would Kaman or Biedrins fit on Toronto well?
Maybe because they are white/european :oldlol:

But other than that, no possible way either of those guys are better than Bosh. This is not a scenario where they get addition by subtraction.

[indiefan23]

Yeah, maybe it's not such a good idea I keep entering these types of threads with fans with this type of homer bias, then try and debate with you guys.

Homer bias? You're wrong, its not bias. Watch, you say:


Calderon light years ahead of Nash? How much have you had to drink. blah blah blah

Except I distinctly said he's light years ahead of Nash when Nash was in his 4'th year. Role players do not have the best assist/turnover ratio in the league nor are they among the league leaders in dimes. Nor do they have the best FT percentage in history. The bias is in you, my friend, not me. Even if you take Nash's 'age', which is stupid cuz age has nothing to do with 'experience' (you're comparing a 4'th year point on a much worse team to a 7 year player on a great offensive team) he's still getting way less dimes on a nightly basis to go with way more turnovers.



I don't even want to get into Barg vs. Dirk, that's just really disgusting. It makes me sick to the stomach to think anyone thinks Bargnani is comparable to Dirk... under any circumstance. What Bargnani is doing now @ 23, doesn't even compare to what Dirk was doing @ 21.

Dirk was considered a bust at 21 by people who just 'make things up' when they want to hate on someone. You're in that club. That's the comparison. I love how when a hater wants to slam a player they just use some unmeasurable quality like 'he can't penetrate' or 'no D' to slam that guy. Its just foolish really. Both Calderon and Bargnani have a wack of potential and you're calling them role players. I think you've got some unaddressed issues to deal with or something, cuz again, you're just wrong.

[indiefan23]

No. A team with Calderon as the second option, probably isn't going anywhere. Nash was the second option on Dallas, and he was a legit 2nd option. Calderon is a poorer than poor mans version of him, no matter how efficient he is. His impact on wins, and the game in general are far poorer.

There's another one... 'impact on games'. Love it. I suppose you're right, Calderon is a league assist leader but he's got far too few 'game impacts' to really be taken seriously. ;0


And, really... there's no reason to think either Calderon or Bargnani are headed to the level of Nash or Dirk because as I stated, at the very same age, both of them were loads better... and both went on to eventually be MVPs. I'll just tell you this right now... Calderon and Bargnani will never ever, ever, ever, be the MVP of the NBA. That might sound harsh, or like I'm hating... but it's the truth.

Except straight age is pretty dumb to compare on when at 27 Nash had many extra seasons under his belt to learn PG with. I don't get it. Maybe you love Nash or something, and I do too, and I don't think Calderon is going to be MVP, but I don't think he has to to be part of a great Raptors team future. You're slamming young players by comparing them to vets and its just bluntly stupid.

[indiefan23]

Maybe because they are white/european :oldlol:

But other than that, no possible way either of those guys are better than Bosh. This is not a scenario where they get addition by subtraction.

Well, if Bosh does not want to stay, they're 'way' better then him. I like Bosh, but everyone talks about the lack of interior defense, 'n you know, he's got a lot to do with that. When Shaq called him soft, it wasn't really fair, but its kind of true also.

[beasted86]

Homer bias? You're wrong, its not bias. Watch, you say:



Except I distinctly said he's light years ahead of Nash when Nash was in his 4'th year. Role players do not have the best assist/turnover ratio in the league nor are they among the league leaders in dimes. Nor do they have the best FT percentage in history. The bias is in you, my friend, not me. Even if you take Nash's 'age', which is stupid cuz age has nothing to do with 'experience' (you're comparing a 4'th year point on a much worse team to a 7 year player on a great offensive team) he's still getting way less dimes on a nightly basis to go with way more turnovers.

So I don't understand... are we waiting on Calderon to turn 31 (7th yr) before he's supposed to be good or a top PG? I don't get it....

Anyway... point blank period... tell me right now that Calderon is ready to be a 2nd option on a contending team so I can quote it and put a bunch of ":oldlol:", and ":roll:" symbols after the statement. Because the truth of the whole matter... which is undenyably a fact... Calderon cannot be the 2nd option on a team that is going anywhere.... otherwise playing on the Raptors with Bosh they would have atleast made the playoffs, and there would have been no need to sign Turkoglu.



Dirk was considered a bust at 21 by people who just 'make things up' when they want to hate on someone. You're in that club. That's the comparison. I love how when a hater wants to slam a player they just use some unmeasurable quality like 'he can't penetrate' or 'no D' to slam that guy. Its just foolish really. Both Calderon and Bargnani have a wack of potential and you're calling them role players. I think you've got some unaddressed issues to deal with or something, cuz again, you're just wrong.

If Dirk was a bust at 21, Bargnani is truly living up to his nickname Bustnani. He's already 23, and his best statistical season was 15/5 while sending his team to an early lottery pick. Simple as that.

Like I said, it's really disgusting and baffling that there are actually people who think Calderon and Nash or Bargnani and Dirk belong even in the same sentence at this point as comparable players.

[indiefan23]

So I don't understand... are we waiting on Calderon to turn 31 (7th yr) before he's supposed to be good or a top PG? I don't get it....

Umm... Calderon 'is' a top point guard now and it's his fourth year. By the time he's 31 I expect him to be much, much better. How thick is your skull? He has the best A/TO in the entire league. He's the best free throw shooter in history. He averaged 9 dimes a game last year for 4'th best in the league right on the heels of Steve Nash and would have passed him if he hadn't been hurt. He had more assists then Kidd, Rondo, Wade, Baron Davis, Tony Parker, Devin Harris, TJ Ford, Andre Miller and Derrik Rose. What, are they no good to you? ;0 do they suck?


Anyway... point blank period... tell me right now that Calderon is ready to be a 2nd option on a contending team so I can quote it and put a bunch of ":oldlol:", and ":roll:" symbols after the statement. Because the truth of the whole matter... which is undenyably a fact... Calderon cannot be the 2nd option on a team that is going anywhere....

Second option? Do you like, mean, 'scoring option'? Jose is a pure point guard. He's there to run the offense. Was Nash the second option? No, his teammates like Amare/Marion/Barbosa were. Is Kidd the second option? No. Was Rondo the second option? Clue: your PG does not have to be a second option to be a contending team.


If Dirk was a bust at 21, Bargnani is truly living up to his nickname Bustnani. He's already 23, and his best statistical season was 15/5 while sending his team to an early lottery pick. Simple as that.

Already 23? ;0 Simple, yes, that's quite a simple way of viewing it. Considering that team is no longer there, cuz they stank, and there's a wack of new talent... I dunno, how are you going to hate next. So far you've got he was 23 and in his third year in the league he couldn't lift a crappy team into the playoffs.


Like I said, it's really disgusting and baffling that there are actually people who think Calderon and Nash or Bargnani and Dirk belong even in the same sentence at this point as comparable players.

Well, you put them in the same sentence, not me. Mindless morons came up with BS reasons to hate on Dirk and Nash back in the day and now they're both all stars. Bargnani and Calderon both have the talent to make the all star team easily. If TO had more wins last year Calderon would have made it then. Honestly, I don't know whats fueling your hatred of this team or these players, but hating cuz someone is 'already' 23 and just fishing as hard as you can for any reason to justify your hate is pretty, I dunno, its just weak.

Menh, I spose you're just a troll anyway. Prolly not worth the effort.

[beasted86]

Umm... Calderon 'is' a top point guard now and it's his fourth year. By the time he's 31 I expect him to be much, much better. How thick is your skull? He has the best A/TO in the entire league. He's the best free throw shooter in history. He averaged 9 dimes a game last year for 4'th best in the league right on the heels of Steve Nash and would have passed him if he hadn't been hurt. He had more assists then Kidd, Rondo, Wade, Baron Davis, Tony Parker, Devin Harris, TJ Ford, Andre Miller and Derrik Rose. What, are they no good to you? ;0 do they suck?



Second option? Do you like, mean, 'scoring option'? Jose is a pure point guard. He's there to run the offense. Was Nash the second option? No, his teammates like Amare/Marion/Barbosa were. Is Kidd the second option? No. Was Rondo the second option? Clue: your PG does not have to be a second option to be a contending team.

Okay... so I still don't get it. Are we now comparing a 35yr old Steve Nash to a 28yr old Calderon? Because if so, even now he loses. Maybe you don't understand the concept of shooting barely over 2 FTs a game regarldess of what percentage he hits, or the idea of having efficient, yet empty stats that don't provide a big impact to help a team win. BTW, to think a guy will finally hit his prime at 31 is just... I don't know... I'm not even going to comment. :confusedshrug:.

But to put it simply, Calderon's peak might not even match Nash's Dallas years. It's really not fair to Nash to compare Calderon to the Phoenix version... but yes, Calderon probably won't match Dallas Nash because even then Nash was the second option. Calderon can never be a 2nd option on a team going anywhere.




Already 23? ;0 Simple, yes, that's quite a simple way of viewing it. Considering that team is no longer there, cuz they stank, and there's a wack of new talent... I dunno, how are you going to hate next. So far you've got he was 23 and in his third year in the league he couldn't lift a crappy team into the playoffs.



Well, you put them in the same sentence, not me. Mindless morons came up with BS reasons to hate on Dirk and Nash back in the day and now they're both all stars. Bargnani and Calderon both have the talent to make the all star team easily. If TO had more wins last year Calderon would have made it then. Honestly, I don't know whats fueling your hatred of this team or these players, but hating cuz someone is 'already' 23 and just fishing as hard as you can for any reason to justify your hate is pretty, I dunno, its just weak.

Menh, I spose you're just a troll anyway. Prolly not worth the effort.

As I said, maybe I'm just opening the wrong threads. This guy is still relentless in his approach to compare Calderon and Nash, and Bargnani and Dirk. It's really quite a simple concept. Let me deliver it one last time... just put true or false if you agree or disagree, then we'll leave it at that... to agree to disagree. If you disagree bold any parts you disagree with.

1. Nash and Dirk arent/werent simply "allstars"... they are/were superstars... and they are legit 1st or 2nd options on a team offensively, and leadership wise to the point where they could lift a team to title contention.

2. Bargnani or Calderon may possibly some day make an all-star team, but they will never, I mean, never be the NBA MVP.... They will never be the #1 option on a contending team... and they will never be considered 'superstars'.

[Finger Roll]

Toronto will be a first round exit indeed.

I'm looking forward to seeing Amir Johnson possibly getting some playing time.

he has a lot to learn.
when you watch him its like watching bargs in his rookie season looking all confused

[hassano]

Menh, I spose you're just a troll anyway. Prolly not worth the effort.

This, this man has always been a toronto hater and a Bosh hater btw, but he wont admit to it now cuz he wants bosh to go to miami in 2010:rolleyes:

[beasted86]

This, this man has always been a toronto hater and a Bosh hater btw, but he wont admit to it now cuz he wants bosh to go to miami in 2010:rolleyes:
Who the fu*k are you? :oldlol:

I never even watched or commented on Bosh until last season... and even then I was mostly defending the fact that he's forced to play out of position.

[Qwyjibo]

I don't get the comparisons either.

Nash breaking out at a later age is a rarity and not the rule. The playing styles between Nash and Calderon aren't even similar to begin with. I'm not bashing Calderon because the guy is a very solid PG and I'm satisfied with him being the starter.

Bargnani is nowhere close to Dirk's development pace when it comes to age, experience and production. Not even remotely close. After 3 years Bargnani is closer to Vladimir Radmanovic than Dirk in terms of overall career thus far. Now since I'm a Raptors fan, I really really hope that changes and he continues his play from late last year but facts are facts so far.

[indiefan23]

I don't get the comparisons either.

Nash breaking out at a later age is a rarity and not the rule. The playing styles between Nash and Calderon aren't even similar to begin with. I'm not bashing Calderon because the guy is a very solid PG and I'm satisfied with him being the starter.

Actually, point guard is a position that takes the longest to learn. Its pretty normal for a point to take some time before they really come into their own. Nash, Billups, Jameer Nelson.


Bargnani is nowhere close to Dirk's development pace when it comes to age, experience and production. Not even remotely close. After 3 years Bargnani is closer to Vladimir Radmanovic than Dirk in terms of overall career thus far. Now since I'm a Raptors fan, I really really hope that changes and he continues his play from late last year but facts are facts so far.

I didn't say he was close, I said he was like Dirk in the criticism he receives for having a similar skill set. Bargnani's potential is to be a whole lot like Dirk. I love how morons on ISH take anything you say and just make up whatever they want you to say. :) Not that you're that moron, but thats where this notion came from. And Radmanovic is a spot up shooter, not a guy who can get his own shot and take over games.

[indiefan23]

This, this man has always been a toronto hater and a Bosh hater btw, but he wont admit to it now cuz he wants bosh to go to miami in 2010:rolleyes:

Yep, he's kinda an idiot troll. ;0 Don't know why it took me so long to realize it.

[phoenix18]

Toronto is going deep. "Elite" teams will be on there heels. Especially Orlando. Watch out y'all!

[hayden695]

Toronto is going deep. "Elite" teams will be on there heels. Especially Orlando. Watch out y'all!
Oh yes.

Phoenix get you black ass into the OTC I am bored and want to have something funny happen tonight and no one is in there.

[indiefan23]

Okay... so I still don't get it. Are we now comparing a 35yr old Steve Nash to a 28yr old Calderon? Because if so, even now he loses. Maybe you don't understand the concept of shooting barely over 2 FTs a game regarldess of what percentage he hits, or the idea of having efficient, yet empty stats that don't provide a big impact to help a team win. BTW, to think a guy will finally hit his prime at 31 is just... I don't know... I'm not even going to comment. :confusedshrug:.

You don't get it because you're trying not to get it. You said Calderon is not athletic enough. I said thats not a requirement as Nash is not crazy athletic. You can't admit you're wrong so you started talking about all this other trash. Regardless, Calderon is a great pure point 'right now' and is getting better every single year.


But to put it simply, Calderon's peak might not even match Nash's Dallas years. It's really not fair to Nash to compare Calderon to the Phoenix version... but yes, Calderon probably won't match Dallas Nash because even then Nash was the second option. Calderon can never be a 2nd option on a team going anywhere.

Considering in Dallas Nash was not the second option, Michael Finley and Juaun Howard (or another few guys) were (making him fourth), heh, one year he was behind Gary Trent, Robert Pack and Eric Strickland (who, exactly) and he 'never' totaled Calderon's assist totals and always surpassed his turnover totals despite being surrounded with way better talent, I'm gonna go ahead and laugh at you. Ha!


As I said, maybe I'm just opening the wrong threads. This guy is still relentless in his approach to compare Calderon and Nash, and Bargnani and Dirk.

Its pretty obvious I've only compared tiny parts of these players to point out your abject wrongness, not their whole games.


1. Nash and Dirk arent/werent simply "allstars"... they are/were superstars... and they are legit 1st or 2nd options on a team offensively, and leadership wise to the point where they could lift a team to title contention.

Exactly, and as I've said, early in their careers they had reactionary people, like you, saying the exact same things you said about them, which is my point exactly. Thanks!


2. Bargnani or Calderon may possibly some day make an all-star team, but they will never, I mean, never be the NBA MVP.... They will never be the #1 option on a contending team... and they will never be considered 'superstars'.

Never is a pretty big word. And that being said, they don't have to be superstar MVPs to be on a contending team. Calderon 'is' a top point. Bargnani very possibly could be one of the top scorers, and top scoring big men, in the league. Again, why the animosity? They're talented players, very real potential all stars, and Toronto seems to have a game plan. You seem offended for some reason. ;0

[indiefan23]

Toronto is going deep. "Elite" teams will be on there heels. Especially Orlando. Watch out y'all!

I dunno how deep they'll go, but depending on how things go, they could for sure put a scare into a few teams. A million things can happen in hoop.

[beasted86]

You seem offended for some reason. ;0
Mainly at anyone's (not just you) audacity to compare them to Nash or Dirk when neither are on pace statistically, nor seem like they will ever be anything better than a 2nd or 3rd option on a team. I called out a guy who tried to compare Channing Frye and LaMarcus Aldridge, and Aldridge is just an above average player who's not even an all-star. I'm almost more realistic comparing Michael Beasley to Charles Barkley... atleast their stats as a rookie and age have some sort of resemblence :rolleyes:


The annoying bias someone would have to mention Bargs and Dirk or Calderon and Nash is just looney. Also offended by you specifically for insinuating Calderon doesn't have the experience yet, and will peak at 31. That's just space cadet right there.

But I'll just agree to disagree on this matter. I believe both scenarios 1 & 2 are both true, and everybody should know that at this point.

[indiefan23]

Mainly at anyone's (not just you) audacity to compare them to Nash or Dirk when neither are on pace statistically, nor seem like they will ever be anything better than a 2nd or 3rd option on a team.

Umm... Calderon is much better then Nash was in his 4'th year in the league. Nash has never been the 2'nd or 3'rd option on his teams. You don't seem to comprehend that a point's job is to primarily choose and set up the scoring options, they start plays, not primarily finish them. With the exception of super players like AI or CP3, no good point guard is the first or second option, and in the case they are, they typically switch between playing the 1 and the 2 in an offense built around them doing so. You've learned something today: scoring lots of points is not an important skill for a great point guard. I'm glad you've learned this important facet of basketball.

You said Caleron was not athletic enough, and that this was why you didn't like him when its obvious that its an excuse, not a reason, to not like him. I gave Nash as an example of how athleticism is not overly important because Nash was the best PG in the league.

Bargnani 'is' capable of being the first, second or third option on a team because the dude 'is' capable of scoring 20 PPG. Very, very, very few people are capable of doing this. He did it for extended periods last season. As a starter he averaged 18/6 and a over a block. Only 18 players were 18/6 last year. Only 8 players did it with a block. Only 78 players in the entire history of the NBA have done this by their 3'rd season. Only 52 have done it by the age of 23. Only 10 have done it by age 23 in the last 10 years. Only 9 7 footers have done this by the time they are 23 in NBA history and no one has done it by that age and there have been no 7 footers to do it in the past 10 years by 23 except: Dirk. And, no 7 footers, in history, have done this by the age of 23 shooting over 40% from 3, which Bargnani did do, and Dirk did not. He came close shooting 38 and 39 percent from 3, but he did not do better then Bargnani's 40.9%. In fact, the only two 7 footers to shoot over 40% from 3 in HISTORY for legit season are two dudes. Dirk and Bargnani. This is why they're alike. And yes, this is why Bargnani is special.

Is Bargnani as good as Dirk? No. But the concept of comparison is lost on you. It does not mean they are the same or as good, but similar. In this case, a young player has similar skills to a vet player when he was younger and has some potential to be like that player in the future. There are only two 7 footers in history with this kind of game.


I called out a guy who tried to compare Channing Frye and LaMarcus Aldridge, and Aldridge is just an above average player who's not even an all-star. I'm almost more realistic comparing Michael Beasley to Charles Barkley... atleast their stats as a rookie and age have some sort of resemblence

Did you call them out, or did you make yourself look like a blathering idiot? Cuz that's about what you've done in this thread.


The annoying bias someone would have to mention Bargs and Dirk or Calderon and Nash is just looney. Also offended by you specifically for insinuating Calderon doesn't have the experience yet, and will peak at 31. That's just space cadet right there.

Its his fourth year in the league. Following the path of many great point guards like Billups, Nash, Stockton, etc it takes a few years before they reach their full potential. Its very common knowledge. You've learned remember.


But I'll just agree to disagree on this matter. I believe both scenarios 1 & 2 are both true, and everybody should know that at this point.

Agree to what? You're wrong, at this point, and either have very little knowledge about the game or some other kind of motivation to not accept facts. You can state the agree to disagree thing now that you don't really have a leg to stand on, but its frankly obvious that both player 1 and 2 are unique players who while are quite good, have yet to meet their ceilings at all. Both could easily be all stars. Its too early to tell. But like Nash/Dirk in similar circumstances years ago, they were counted out by opinions such as the one you've displayed.

The hate flows freely on ISH, the odd thing is you have some pretense like your hate is backed up with facts or some sort of reasonable analysis. Its not. Its apparent. Its obvious.

[Take Your Lumps]

Toronto is going deep. "Elite" teams will be on there heels. Especially Orlando. Watch out y'all!

If Toronto decides to play defense...sure they can scare some teams IF they're clicking on all cylinders offensively. BUT, that will only take you so far...eventually your percentages will catch up to you.

Everyone thought the Magic were going to fail in the post-season but what they didn't realize was that Orlando was top-3 defensively all year long.

As a raptor, Turkoglu's lack of D is really going to be exposed this season now that he doesn't have Howard behind him bailing him out anymore.

I'm looking at the Raptors roster here and I just don't see them having the personnel to go very deep....where's the defense? Honestly, am I missing something here?

I love the addition of Amir Johnson though...

[beasted86]

Umm... Calderon is much better then Nash was in his 4'th year in the league. Nash has never been the 2'nd or 3'rd option on his teams. You don't seem to comprehend that a point's job is to primarily choose and set up the scoring options, they start plays, not primarily finish them. With the exception of super players like AI or CP3, no good point guard is the first or second option, and in the case they are, they typically switch between playing the 1 and the 2 in an offense built around them doing so. You've learned something today: scoring lots of points is not an important skill for a great point guard. I'm glad you've learned this important facet of basketball.

You said Caleron was not athletic enough, and that this was why you didn't like him when its obvious that its an excuse, not a reason, to not like him. I gave Nash as an example of how athleticism is not overly important because Nash was the best PG in the league.

Bargnani 'is' capable of being the first, second or third option on a team because the dude 'is' capable of scoring 20 PPG. Very, very, very few people are capable of doing this. He did it for extended periods last season. As a starter he averaged 18/6 and a over a block. Only 18 players were 18/6 last year. Only 8 players did it with a block. Only 78 players in the entire history of the NBA have done this by their 3'rd season. Only 52 have done it by the age of 23. Only 10 have done it by age 23 in the last 10 years. Only 9 7 footers have done this by the time they are 23 in NBA history and no one has done it by that age and there have been no 7 footers to do it in the past 10 years by 23 except: Dirk. And, no 7 footers, in history, have done this by the age of 23 shooting over 40% from 3, which Bargnani did do, and Dirk did not. He came close shooting 38 and 39 percent from 3, but he did not do better then Bargnani's 40.9%. In fact, the only two 7 footers to shoot over 40% from 3 in HISTORY for legit season are two dudes. Dirk and Bargnani. This is why they're alike. And yes, this is why Bargnani is special.

Is Bargnani as good as Dirk? No. But the concept of comparison is lost on you. It does not mean they are the same or as good, but similar. In this case, a young player has similar skills to a vet player when he was younger and has some potential to be like that player in the future. There are only two 7 footers in history with this kind of game.



Did you call them out, or did you make yourself look like a blathering idiot? Cuz that's about what you've done in this thread.



Its his fourth year in the league. Following the path of many great point guards like Billups, Nash, Stockton, etc it takes a few years before they reach their full potential. Its very common knowledge. You've learned remember.



Agree to what? You're wrong, at this point, and either have very little knowledge about the game or some other kind of motivation to not accept facts. You can state the agree to disagree thing now that you don't really have a leg to stand on, but its frankly obvious that both player 1 and 2 are unique players who while are quite good, have yet to meet their ceilings at all. Both could easily be all stars. Its too early to tell. But like Nash/Dirk in similar circumstances years ago, they were counted out by opinions such as the one you've displayed.

The hate flows freely on ISH, the odd thing is you have some pretense like your hate is backed up with facts or some sort of reasonable analysis. Its not. Its apparent. Its obvious.

It's obvious you are a sensitive groupie who can't keep his emotions in check. You are making up things and are saying I said it. I really don't care at this point... My whole purpose was to call out that BS comparison of Nash & Nowitzki... and to point out it's a fact that Calderon will never be as good as Nash, and he's already hit his ceiling... and Bargnani will never be as good as Dirk, and he'll never be a #1 option on a contending team.

Live with it. :cheers:

Face the facts.

[indiefan23]

It's obvious you are a sensitive groupie who can't keep his emotions in check. You are making up things and are saying I said it. I really don't care at this point... My whole purpose was to call out that BS comparison of Nash & Nowitzki... and to point out it's a fact that Calderon will never be as good as Nash, and he's already hit his ceiling... and Bargnani will never be as good as Dirk, and he'll never be a #1 option on a contending team.

Live with it. :cheers:

Face the facts.

I thought I was pretty cold honestly, and emotionless. Facts are, you didn't come to this thread stating any of those intentions. You did latch on to very valid comparisons between the above players and distort those comparisons to something they were not, which is stating Bargnani is as good as Dirk and Nash Calderon. Do you honestly have a learning disability to the point where you can't see how obvious it was I didn't say that? Why do you need to win this argument so badly when its so obvious you're really disagreeing with absolutely nothing, and have gone from saying both players will never be 'good' to admitting they have all star potential??? Why are you so insecure to refuse to admit you were wrong and headstrong?

[indiefan23]

I thought I was pretty cold honestly, and emotionless. Facts are, you didn't come to this thread stating any of those intentions. You did latch on to very valid comparisons between the above players and distort those comparisons to something they were not, which is stating Bargnani is as good as Dirk and Nash Calderon. Do you honestly have a learning disability to the point where you can't see how obvious it was I didn't say that? Why do you need to win this argument so badly when its so obvious you're really disagreeing with absolutely nothing, and have gone from saying both players will never be 'good' to admitting they have all star potential??? Why are you so insecure to refuse to admit you were wrong and headstrong?

Yep, that's the response I expected. :)

[Lebron23]

Chris Bosh needs to improve his man to man defense. He has all the tools to become a good defender in the NBA, but sometimes he leave his man on a bad rotation.

[beasted86]

I thought I was pretty cold honestly, and emotionless. Facts are, you didn't come to this thread stating any of those intentions. You did latch on to very valid comparisons between the above players and distort those comparisons to something they were not, which is stating Bargnani is as good as Dirk and Nash Calderon. Do you honestly have a learning disability to the point where you can't see how obvious it was I didn't say that? Why do you need to win this argument so badly when its so obvious you're really disagreeing with absolutely nothing, and have gone from saying both players will never be 'good' to admitting they have all star potential??? Why are you so insecure to refuse to admit you were wrong and headstrong?
Yeah, emotionless enough to make up lies about what I said, huh?

As I said, a more valid comparison would be Michael Beasley's rookie season to Charles Barkley's... and even that gets a total WTF-SMH response. Nash and Calderon and Dirk and Bargnani, as well as Barkley and Beasley have no business in the same sentence... period. You are really stupid if you think there are any grounds for comparison other than the description of their height and that they are euro players... or Beasley/Barkley's height and that they are light skinned black guys :lol... otherwise they don't even belong in the same sentence. SMH @ you still upholding that notion.

And please... hold your breath on the idea that Calderon is going to get any better, or that Bargnani can lead a team to the Finals.

[indiefan23]

Yeah, emotionless enough to make up lies about what I said, huh?

As I said, a more valid comparison would be Michael Beasley's rookie season to Charles Barkley's... and even that gets a total WTF-SMH response. Nash and Calderon and Dirk and Bargnani, as well as Barkley and Beasley have no business in the same sentence... period. You are really stupid if you think there are any grounds for comparison other than the description of their height and that they are euro players... or Beasley/Barkley's height and that they are light skinned black guys :lol... otherwise they don't even belong in the same sentence. SMH @ you still upholding that notion.

And please... hold your breath on the idea that Calderon is going to get any better, or that Bargnani can lead a team to the Finals.

Heh, yea, emotional huh? How about last night when Bargnani carried his team past a much, much more talented one? Like, one of the best teams in the league.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=291028028

yep, pure loser there.

[beasted86]

Heh, yea, emotional huh? How about last night when Bargnani carried his team past a much, much more talented one? Like, one of the best teams in the league.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=291028028

yep, pure loser there.
Yeah... he carried them. The rest of the team were scrubs. :rolleyes:

It's one night... I maintain my stance... Bargnani is a second option at best. He won't lead a team to the Finals. Calderon is not even a second option. He's your third option at best... but considering the current lineup 4th, and just a slightly above average PG, who probably won't ever be considered top 5 in the NBA. Neither will ever be superstars... they will never ever, ever win MVP... and they don't warrant a comparison of either skillset, or talent/age comparison to Nash & Dirk.

[indiefan23]

Yeah... he carried them. The rest of the team were scrubs. :rolleyes:

It's one night... I maintain my stance... Bargnani is a second option at best. He won't lead a team to the Finals. Calderon is not even a second option. He's your third option at best... but considering the current lineup 4th, and just a slightly above average PG, who probably won't ever be considered top 5 in the NBA. Neither will ever be superstars... they will never ever, ever win MVP... and they don't warrant a comparison of either skillset, or talent/age comparison to Nash & Dirk.

Heh, fact is, both have a very legitimate shot at being stars in this league. Calderon was very close to making the all star team just last year. Bargnani is a very unique player who had not reached his potential. Whatever you say really does not matter. Calderon already is a top 5 point guard in this league.

Last year, he was 4'th in dimes and 1'rst in ast/to ratio, the two most critical PG stats. Its not above average, its pushing 'best in the world'. Being the 'first option' is just an ignorant way to evaluate a PG. Cuz u know, Magic Johnson, he sucked, because he was not the first or second option either. ;0 idiot

[indiefan23]

Chris Bosh needs to improve his man to man defense. He has all the tools to become a good defender in the NBA, but sometimes he leave his man on a bad rotation.

Heh, how long ago must you have gotten that login? ;0 I agree about Bosh. I've just never bought him as a franchise player. I've never bought Amare for the same (although much more glaring) reasons.

[beasted86]

Heh, fact is, both have a very legitimate shot at being stars in this league. Calderon was very close to making the all star team just last year. Bargnani is a very unique player who had not reached his potential. Whatever you say really does not matter. Calderon already is a top 5 point guard in this league.

Last year, he was 4'th in dimes and 1'rst in ast/to ratio, the two most critical PG stats. Its not above average, its pushing 'best in the world'. Being the 'first option' is just an ignorant way to evaluate a PG. Cuz u know, Magic Johnson, he sucked, because he was not the first or second option either. ;0 idiot
1) Haha... okay.. fool yourself into believing Magic was the third option on the Lakers. :oldlol: So who was the second option? Jamal Wilkes? :oldlol:

2) Find me one other person who is not a Raptors fan on this board who would rather have Calderon than Paul, Williams, Parker, Billups, or Nash. Please do. He is not a top 5 PG... Many would argue he's not even better than Rose, Rondo, Harris, or Kidd either.

[Dresta]

Raps suck.

[indiefan23]

1) Haha... okay.. fool yourself into believing Magic was the third option on the Lakers. :oldlol: So who was the second option? Jamal Wilkes? :oldlol:

Umm... James Worthy, know nothing. You must be like, a teenager huh? ;0


2) Find me one other person who is not a Raptors fan on this board who would rather have Calderon than Paul, Williams, Parker, Billups, or Nash. Please do. He is not a top 5 PG... Many would argue he's not even better than Rose, Rondo, Harris, or Kidd either.

Hmm... I'll take him over Billups for sure. Nash too maybe considering how old they are. If you're going to actually build a team for the next 5 years I can tell you those guys are not going over Calderon. And honestly, I'd take him over Parker too. Tony is great, but he's benefited from having an amazing team around him.

[beasted86]

Umm... James Worthy, know nothing. You must be like, a teenager huh? ;0

Okay... now I'm sure you have no brain. :oldlol: You do realize Worthy outscored Magic 3 seasons out of the 9 they played together, right? Did you also realize Magic was the main facilitator on the team, regardless of the 1-2 point advantage Worthy had in those 3 seasons?

I don't know where you are from, or what country you were watching basketball from at the time, but Worthy and Wilkes were always considered the 3rd wheel to Magic and Kareem.


Hmm... I'll take him over Billups for sure. Nash too maybe considering how old they are. If you're going to actually build a team for the next 5 years I can tell you those guys are not going over Calderon. And honestly, I'd take him over Parker too. Tony is great, but he's benefited from having an amazing team around him.
I didn't ask whether YOU would take them genius. I already know you're a strongly biased homer with a tainted perception. I asked you to find 1 non-raptor fan who would admit something that stupid. No way no how, right now Calderon is better than those 5 I mentioned. And as I already said, besides those 5, almost everyone on this board could easily make a case that right now Rondo, Rose, Harris, and Kidd are better right now also.

[indiefan23]

Okay... now I'm sure you have no brain. :oldlol: You do realize Worthy outscored Magic 3 seasons out of the 9 they played together, right? Did you also realize Magic was the main facilitator on the team, regardless of the 1-2 point advantage Worthy had in those 3 seasons?

I don't know where you are from, or what country you were watching basketball from at the time, but Worthy and Wilkes were always considered the 3rd wheel to Magic and Kareem.

3'rd wheel, but 2'nd scorer. Magic played point. He set people up. Thats why so many Laker teams had like, 5 guys scoring in double figures. Dispite the fact that Worthy WAS the second option, Magic passing to someone else was the option their offense took 75% of the time. Magic trying to score himself was a rare option in comparison. Look at 1983. Norm Freaking Nixon took 100's more shots then magic. In 84 he's 4'th and only just in front of Bob Mcadoo. In 85 he's 4'th behind Byron Freaking Scott. Same in 86. In 87 they used Magic as a scorer more cuz Kareem was getting old. Then in 88 he had the 3'rd highest attempts, but only just in front of Kareem. Then 3'rd in 89. In 90 he was second and they got bounced in the second round. 91 he was third and they made the finals. Spanked by MJ though. Now, that's just raw attempts. You've got to consider minutes.

When you consider that FGA/minute would really indicate how much of a scorer you are in the offense Magic is ranked on the lakers like this year by year. Again, from 83 (which I arbitrary picked as a year when Magic was solidified).

11/10/8/9/1 (his scorer year)/6/4/8/5

Anyway, when you wanna man up and admit you're wrong, get back to me. Magic played point better then anyone. He could score, but he was only once a first/second option type. Its got little to do with him, and everything to do with his position. Being a great scorer has little to do with being a great point and as the example of Magic's play exhibits, you're at your strongest when you're not looking to score. You are wrong. FACT.


I didn't ask whether YOU would take them genius. I already know you're a strongly biased homer with a tainted perception. I asked you to find 1 non-raptor fan who would admit something that stupid. No way no how, right now Calderon is better than those 5 I mentioned. And as I already said, besides those 5, almost everyone on this board could easily make a case that right now Rondo, Rose, Harris, and Kidd are better right now also.

Well, I can only speak for me bozo, what do you expect? You find me one person posed with this question. "If you're building a franchise, as the raptors are, and want to build around a core. Do you take Nash/Billlups, or Calderon" and every single person will take Calderon. Sure those guys are great, but they're playing their last elite seasons right now. The PG career arc starts right about now at the age where Calderon is, and extends right to the age where about Nash is. I love to play you on my fantasy team. You'd be the guy drafting Chris Webber when he was in Philly. Rondo I would take cuz of his killer D and uncanny skills of getting in the lane. Kidd, you have to be joking. Jason Kidd is on his last leg. Harris is a great scorer, but does not really know how to play point. 7 dimes and 3 TO's a game is not good PG. He'll learn though, but I don't think he'll ever get out of the scorer's concept. He's a 2 inside a 1's body.

Its pretty obvious this whole argument is basically inane. You've already admitted both these guys are totally capable of making allstar teams and youi're like "yea, they suck, they can't be the first option, they won't be league MVP!" No one ever said they will. At least I didn't. All I've said is they are quality players who are taking a team in the right direction and have the potential to be part of an elite team. Since you do think they can be allstars, how have you even contradicted that? All you've demonstrated is a poor understanding of how good ball clubs are constructed. Menh to Beasted86. I think your handle is much scarier then your bite. ;)

[indiefan23]

A bunch of tripe I've repeated with no evidence or reasoning, just repetition and loud words

Yes, yes, beasted. I recall you doing that earlier. Here's a new line for you.

22/12/2 Bargnani's dominant performance in a TO win.

[mamba24]

If Bosh isn't even relevant, can you send him to Miami at the end of this season please?

We'll enjoy him and your first rounder next season :cheers:

Lol Bosh and wade is like a younger combo of kobe and Pau...would love to see this..

but i have to say...pair wade with someone that good and I dont care if your the celtics hes gonna get to the finals.

[beasted86]

Yes, yes, beasted. I recall you doing that earlier. Here's a new line for you.

22/12/2 Bargnani's dominant performance in a TO win.
Here's a new line for you: 9pts/5ast/2tos on 37%... that's what Calderon is averaging through 4.

Now I'm sure by your backwards logic, Calderon in 100% likely to bounce back and start averaging more assists, higher percentages, and more points, yet Bargnani is 0% likely to revert in the same manner by hitting a cold streak.

Whatever........ you win the argument. It isn't much of an argument when someone vehemently supports the notion that Magic was the third scoring option on the Lakers to Worthy, even though Magic outscored him 6 out of 9 years played together. I mean if you will support bullsh!t just to try and make yourself look right, go ahead. I'm not wasting any more time here.

Good luck with the Raptors making the playoffs. Bosh is still the #1 option, and that's the only way the team will ever get anywhere. If he leaves next year, and Bargnani is ever the #1 option with some mediocre C brought in with the MLE in 2010 like Przybilla or something, everyone will notice the Raptors win percentage start to slump again, and them heading back to the lottery. He's a solid scorer, but that's all. Reminds me of a younger Okur. He can't and won't lead a team anywhere even though he might make an all-star or 2.

Anyway, as I said good luck with the season. Keep making comparisons with Dirk & Nash and maybe they'll come true someday when Dirk and Nash are 40+ and retired.

[indiefan23]

Here's a new line for you: 9pts/5ast/2tos on 37%... that's what Calderon is averaging through 4.

Now I'm sure by your backwards logic, Calderon in 100% likely to bounce back and start averaging more assists, higher percentages, and more points

That would make sense seeing as he was one of the league leaders in dimes at 9 per last year and led history in FT%. He's shooting 70% from the line after shooting 90% and 98% the previous two seasons, so yea, I'm guessing he'll get back on track.


Whatever........ you win the argument.

Yes, I did.


It isn't much of an argument when someone vehemently supports the notion that Magic was the third scoring option on the Lakers to Worthy, even though Magic outscored him 6 out of 9 years played together. I mean if you will support bullsh!t just to try and make yourself look right, go ahead. I'm not wasting any more time here.

Well, that's my opinion, not the support for it. Magic just shot the ball less. Much less. That's why Magic had seasons where his 'attempts' were ranked 11, 10, 8, 9, 6, 4, 8, 5 on his team. When you take more shots, it means you're higher in the list of 'options' your team goes to. Worthy took many more attempts. Magic was not the second option, and for many, many years in his career he was not even the 5'th, or 7'th option. Its not even an opinion, its a fact.


Good luck with the Raptors making the playoffs. Bosh is still the #1 option, and that's the only way the team will ever get anywhere. If he leaves next year, and Bargnani is ever the #1 option with some mediocre C brought in with the MLE in 2010 like Przybilla or something, everyone will notice the Raptors win percentage start to slump again, and them heading back to the lottery. He's a solid scorer, but that's all. Reminds me of a younger Okur. He can't and won't lead a team anywhere even though he might make an all-star or 2.

Hmm... Bargnani is scoring 20, boarding 7, and blocking one, and his numbers are still improving. I don't really care if he's the #1 option, he's a good player with a strong future on his team. You keep slamming me for comparing him to Dirk, but you're saying all the things they said about Dirk when he was 23. The point you refuse to accept is that a player with lots of potential like Bargnani can't really be judged so early. No one knows how he'll adjust or how he can play once he's developed and inserted into a system. He (and Calderon) don't need to be the #1 player on a team to be solid pieces to a good team.

The fact is they're a piece away from pushing elite in the east. Say they land Stephen Jackson for cheap. They are pretty instantly in the conversation for 4'th in the east. Being able to build with these guys does not mean they're going to be superstars... however its very likely one of the two we are discussing become all stars within the next 3 years, so I'm not sure what you're level of 'good' is.

[Dresta]

Raps suck ass.

[SESSEL15]

Raps suck ass.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Care to explain? But if you have nothing insightful to say, you shouldn't even be posting at all. In attempt to maintain intuative basketball discussion, posts like yours are redundant and useless.

[indiefan23]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Care to explain? But if you have nothing insightful to say, you shouldn't even be posting at all. In attempt to maintain intuative basketball discussion, posts like yours are redundant and useless.

Heh, don't sweat it. This place is just full of trolls mostly like that beasted freak. He'll still slam on Bargnani when he's putting up 20/6/1, shooting over 50%, over 46% from 3, and over 93% from the line... not a talented player at all there. ;0 Not to mention the raps have far and away the #1 offense in the league, yet the guy running it, he also sucks.

[beasted86]

Okay seriously...

BURN!

[beasted86]

Where is this guy indiefan23? I'd love to hear what he has to say now. I'm so glad I found this topic. This tool was PMing me afterwards and everything.

This is the longest debate I've upheld with a clown.

[Real Men Wear Green]

TO finished about where expected. There was nothing special about them, so they hovered around .500 basketball. Chi's main man was healthy for the end of the season, while there's was not.

[beasted86]

TO finished about where expected. There was nothing special about them, so they hovered around .500 basketball. Chi's main man was healthy for the end of the season, while there's was not.
Yeah, but...

Bargnani = Dirk
Calderon = Nash

How can a team with these caliber players hover around .500?

[MagicalLA]

Bumping old threads to show others you were right is overrated.

[indiefan23]

Bumping old threads to show others you were right is overrated.

Agree with you MagicalLA. ;0

Beasted86 is wondering what happened to the Raptors? :0 In my preview I stated the importance of Calderone who's season was drastically affected and slowed due to injuries. Bargnani showed improvements in literally every measurable aspect of his game. Hedo was a disappointment in his first year but honestly, I don't think I was the only person expecting him to play better then he did coming off taking a team to the finals. Derozan played a very decent rookie season. Jack had a very good season and looks to be a solid contributor. Most of the things I said would happen happened. The raps ended second in their division and 1 game out of the playoffs. Considering I was talking about building the team for the future and that future is still pretty bright.

All that is not even mentioning that Chris Bosh missed about a month of games at a point when they had gone 23-9 and were on pace for home court in the first round. If he did not get hurt they win 45-50 games easily. I'm not sure how I got 'burned'. ;0

[indiefan23]

Yeah, but...

Bargnani = Dirk
Calderon = Nash

How can a team with these caliber players hover around .500?

Don't be a retard. I never once stated that Bargnani and Calderon were those on their level at all. I just stated that your criticisms of them were similar to the ones people said about them at the same point in their careers before they had gained the experience they needed to be stars. Sheesh.

[indiefan23]

Toronto will be a first round exit indeed.

I'm looking forward to seeing Amir Johnson possibly getting some playing time.

Yep, agreed. He did very well when he got some minutes in Detroit.

[indiefan23]

Okay, so where is Mr. Burn anyway? ;0 He obviously kept this thread in his mind for an entire freaking season and hardly made a good point now that the season is over.

[indiefan23]

Okay, so where is Mr. Burn anyway? ;0 He obviously kept this thread in his mind for an entire freaking season and hardly made a good point now that the season is over.

Where you at beasted? I want to hear more about how I got burned on the raptors when they most likely would have won 50 games and had home court advantage in the playoffs had Bosh not been hurt. They also spent much of the season as the top ranked offensive team too BTW. ;0

[T-Low]

Ok, we know the raps suck. Now let it go and move on!

[Nito]

Where you at beasted? I want to hear more about how I got burned on the raptors when they most likely would have won 50 games and had home court advantage in the playoffs had Bosh not been hurt. They also spent much of the season as the top ranked offensive team too BTW. ;0

You are basing an entire argument on an absurd assumption that the raptors would have won 50 games if Bosh wasn't injured. The fact is they did not win 50 games. An argument cannot be based on what could of happened. The fact is they did not win and the raptors suck.

Bargnani is just plain bad. He is a center in a shooting guards body. When has a team ever been successful with such an unorthodox center? History has proven that a team needs a banger inside that can grab a couple boards here and there, something that Bargnani is not capable of.

As for the offence - you are right, they were a very succesful offensive team. However there good offence could not make up for their horrendous defense. Calderon is an absolute liability on defense. Literally every point guards walks around him as if he was a pylon.

I don't know how you can possibly justify the raptors being a good-decent team with a point guard that plays virtually no defence and a center that grabs 5 boards and plays like a shooting guard.

Unfortunately, I don't see any short term improvements to this team with these 2 guys locking up big salaries for the next few seasons.

[Nito]

and lets not forget Turkoglu. Theres another big salary capable of minimal production.

[indiefan23]

You are basing an entire argument on an absurd assumption that the raptors would have won 50 games if Bosh wasn't injured. The fact is they did not win 50 games. An argument cannot be based on what could of happened. The fact is they did not win and the raptors suck.

? ;0 What? I feel like I shouldn't even point out how retarded that is. Yes, it's a fact they didn't win 50 games. It's also a fact that before Bosh went out they had what, the 4'th best record in the East and had come off a stretch going 20-7. He went down and they went 1-9 losing games to teams like the Warriors, Kings and sixers. He came back and they beat the Atlanta Hawks and was never really the same even after he came back from the injury. Why is it a stretch to think with a healthy Bosh they win 10 more games?


Bargnani is just plain bad. He is a center in a shooting guards body. When has a team ever been successful with such an unorthodox center? History has proven that a team needs a banger inside that can grab a couple boards here and there, something that Bargnani is not capable of.

Uh, I heard about this guy Dirk who's a 7 footer and does pretty well. Oh, and that Rik Smitts guy had successful teams. I really don't get your point. So he's a tall guy who's a better shooter then a defensive presence (even though his post numbers improve every year). And what's so terrible about 6.2 boards and 1.5 blocks anyway? Just cuz he's tall that means he's a terrible player if he doesn't play like other people who are tall? WTF. The league has a 'salary' cap, not a height cap and his game gets better every year. I really don't get the hate on him.


As for the offence - you are right, they were a very succesful offensive team. However there good offence could not make up for their horrendous defense. Calderon is an absolute liability on defense. Literally every point guards walks around him as if he was a pylon.

Who cares? A team's defence is weak because of bigs, not points. Tony Parker was the starting point on the past decades very best and most consistent defensive team and he's brutal on D. A point's job is to distribute and take care of the ball and Calderon does those two things very, very well.


I don't know how you can possibly justify the raptors being a good-decent team with a point guard that plays virtually no defence and a center that grabs 5 boards and plays like a shooting guard.

No defence? ;0 How many blocks does Bargnani have per game? 1.5. How many blocks does Tim Duncan have? 1.5. How many blocks does Joakim Noah have? 1.6. Bargnani is not a defensive anchor, but you're severely under rating him. And he grabbed 6.2 boards and his boards are actually going to be down since he shoots so many 3's in the offense and plays on the perimeter.


Unfortunately, I don't see any short term improvements to this team with these 2 guys locking up big salaries for the next few seasons.

Well, it really depends if you consider the things you made up about the team, or the facts. ;0 Christ.

[Nito]

Uh, I heard about this guy Dirk who's a 7 footer and does pretty well. Oh, and that Rik Smitts guy had successful teams. I really don't get your point. So he's a tall guy who's a better shooter then a defensive presence (even though his post numbers improve every year). And what's so terrible about 6.2 boards and 1.5 blocks anyway? Just cuz he's tall that means he's a terrible player if he doesn't play like other people who are tall? WTF. The league has a 'salary' cap, not a height cap and his game gets better every year. I really don't get the hate on him.

As a 7' who is supposedly a center, Bargnani certainly does not play like one. He spends much of his time on the offensive end camped out around the 3 point line. His interior presence is negligble, rendering his ability to effectively grab offensive boards. You don't see a guy like Tim Duncan, Shaq, or heck even Pryzbilla, who are all big men, camping around outside. Bargnani's unorthodox play at the center position does not help this teams cause. All the best teams have a gritty inside presence of a center, (ie. perkins - boston, bynum- LA) something the raptors lack.

And yes, you make a point bargnani is a better offensive presence then a defensive one. However, the raptors need the exact opposite out of him. We already have numerous options on the offensive end.


Who cares? A team's defence is weak because of bigs, not points.

Exactly why we don't need bums like Bargnani who can't play defense.



Tony Parker was the starting point on the past decades very best and most consistent defensive team and he's brutal on D. A point's job is to distribute and take care of the ball and Calderon does those two things very, very well.



Everytime someone beats calderon off the dribble another player is forced to rotate to pick up his slack. This creates holes on the defensive end. It all starts at the point guard position.

Comparing the spurs to the raptors is unfair, when many of the players on the spurs are competent defenders. The raptors have numerous defensive flaws (bargnani, calderon, turkoglu) which makes it that much harder to pick up the slack. Its one thing to have one defensive weakness a la Parker on the spurs. Its another to have a whole team of poor defenders, with a point guard that can be walked around.




No defence? ;0 How many blocks does Bargnani have per game? 1.5. How many blocks does Tim Duncan have? 1.5. How many blocks does Joakim Noah have? 1.6. Bargnani is not a defensive anchor, but you're severely under rating him. And he grabbed 6.2 boards and his boards are actually going to be down since he shoots so many 3's in the offense and plays on the perimeter.

Okay so bargnani is competent blocker. Excellent. He is not a defensive anchor though, something every center should be a part of. I don't see teams winning with the absence of a center that can hold down the paint with a fair level of comptency. Bargnani certainly can not do this.

[indiefan23]

As a 7' who is supposedly a center, Bargnani certainly does not play like one. He spends much of his time on the offensive end camped out around the 3 point line. His interior presence is negligble, rendering his ability to effectively grab offensive boards. You don't see a guy like Tim Duncan, Shaq, or heck even Pryzbilla, who are all big men, camping around outside. Bargnani's unorthodox play at the center position does not help this teams cause. All the best teams have a gritty inside presence of a center, (ie. perkins - boston, bynum- LA) something the raptors lack.

Umm... so Bargnani sucks because he can shoot 3's? ;0 His interior presence is not negligible because you say it is. He blocked as many shots as Tim Duncan, Joakim Noah, Perkins and MORE then Andrew Bynum this season you moron.

I've absolutly seen plenty of bigs who can shoot 3's playing on the perimeter because it will draw out the other team's interior defenders. Webber did it. Amare Stoudamire does it. Dirk does it.

You seem to be confused here. 1. Bargnani is NOT nearly as brutal an interior presence as you're suggesting. 2. There is NO reason to suggest that because he not a bruising center the Raptors can't get one and play him with Bargnani.


And yes, you make a point bargnani is a better offensive presence then a defensive one. However, the raptors need the exact opposite out of him. We already have numerous options on the offensive end.

Exactly why we don't need bums like Bargnani who can't play defense.


So your point is that Bargnani sucks because the Raptors have done a poor job of defensively constructing their team? It's not his fault that they have not brought in a defensive anchor. And Bargnani actually can play defence.


Everytime someone beats calderon off the dribble another player is forced to rotate to pick up his slack. This creates holes on the defensive end. It all starts at the point guard position.

Why doesn't it start at the guard position on the best defensive team of the past decade then genius? ;0


Comparing the spurs to the raptors is unfair, when many of the players on the spurs are competent defenders. The raptors have numerous defensive flaws (bargnani, calderon, turkoglu) which makes it that much harder to pick up the slack. Its one thing to have one defensive weakness a la Parker on the spurs. Its another to have a whole team of poor defenders, with a point guard that can be walked around.

So, I'll ask you again, these players 'suck' because the Raptors have not addressed defence? Comparing the Spurs to the Raptors is actually quite fair since good NBA defence (which the spurs have) is based on a system with the right players in the right roles so the system works. You're slamming Calderon when great defensive teams often have points who need to be hidden. That's cuz point is the easiest position on the floor to exploit. Watch how easy it is to get rid of Rondo for Nelson. You just run him off a screen and he's out of the play.


Okay so bargnani is competent blocker. Excellent. He is not a defensive anchor though, something every center should be a part of. I don't see teams winning with the absence of a center that can hold down the paint with a fair level of comptency. Bargnani certainly can not do this.

I never said he was a defensive anchor. You said he plays no defence but a guy with 1.5 blocks and over 6 boards when he shoots 3's absolutely is playing some defence. And he's 24 and showing improvement every yea he plays. 20/8/2 is totally capable for him. I don't think he'll become KG defensively, but I also don't think he needs to be that type of player.

For both these guys you're bashing the hell out of them individually when the reality is that there just aren't any good defensive players on the Raptors, and that's a team thing, not a Bargnani or Calderon thing. If you stuck Dwight Howard on the Raptors tomorrow they would go from one of the worst to one of the best defensive teams in the league with both Bargnani AND Calderon playing. It's like you think there is only one way to build a railroad. It's just silly.

[Qwyjibo]

And Bargnani actually can play defence.
If he can then he sure hasn't been doing it in the past 4 years. Every advanced metric out there shows Bargnani as one of the worst defensive players in the league.

Just because you may be average at man to man defense, doesn't make you solid overall. His pathetic help defense and rebounding drop him among the bottom of the league when it comes to forwards/centers.

[indiefan23]

If he can then he sure hasn't been doing it in the past 4 years. Every advanced metric out there shows Bargnani as one of the worst defensive players in the league.

Just because you may be average at man to man defense, doesn't make you solid overall. His pathetic help defense and rebounding drop him among the bottom of the league when it comes to forwards/centers.

Every 'advanced metric'? ;0 Like what? Are you going to throw something stupid like defensive rating, a team/unit based metric, at me? The Raptors suck defensively cuz they can't put an effective defensive lineup on the floor. That's not Andrea Bargnani, it's his team.

Hmm... pathetic? 6.2 boards is not pathetic, especially when his role in the offense is playing on the perimeter and taking a lot of outside shots as this is inherently going to limit his offensive boards.

This past season, there are a total of 17 other players in the league with 6.2 boards and 1.5 blocked shots. Between them they have collectively made a grand total of 5 3 point attempts. Bargnani had 119 3 point attempts. So lets say that for every 2 3's a game, that's one board. Since he's a shooter it seems to make sense since Bargnani also took many more deep 2's that will eliminate him crashing the offensive glass right? At 4.1 3's a game that's an extra 2 rebounds.

I think this makes a lot of sense honestly. Josh Smith is a better rebounder then Bargnani, but he pulled down only 1 more defensive boarg a game but almost two more offensive boards. Nothing definitive and there's lots of room for explanation/error, but it's pretty much obvious that Bargnani's role offensively is going to limit his rebounds and pull that category down in comparison to a guy who's playing in the paint all the time. Smith still shoots jumpers though.

So look at Brendan Haywood. In Washington when he played starter minutes he pulled down 1.4 more defensive boards then Bargnani. His real 'advantage' is on offensive boards which he triples Bargnani's production. The real difference creating the 10.3 to 6.2 gap in boards is the fact that Bargnani is productive offensively and took 14.3 shots a game to Haywood's 6.8. If Bargnani's role was only to rebound and play defence would his boards be much more comparable. It's pretty obvious they would be.

All that being said, Bargnani is 24 and coming from Europe was expected to take a little longer to develop. Will his boards go up? History say yes, that's very likely. Is he capable of 20/10? Yes, he is.

Is his rebounding/defence at the bottom of the league when it comes to centers? Hardly at the bottom of the league at all. Again, Toronto has a very uniquely gifted player. You can complain about the team's composition but to say he's terribe when his stats on defence and rebounding are quite comparable to people who's entire job is to focus on rebounding and defence is just a fallacy. And guys like Brendan Haywood also don't offer the ability to take over games like Bargnani does. That's not like, an extra. It's a huge ability.

For a guy not even close to his prime, Bargnani's numbers are not pathetic, they're actually great and reflect all star potential. Not saying he achieves it but that is still very much his ceiling.

[raptorfan_dr07]

All that being said, Bargnani is 24 and coming from Europe was expected to take a little longer to develop. Will his boards go up? History say yes, that's very likely. Is he capable of 20/10? Yes, he is.

Is his rebounding/defence at the bottom of the league when it comes to centers? Hardly at the bottom of the league at all. Again, Toronto has a very uniquely gifted player. You can complain about the team's composition but to say he's terribe when his stats on defence and rebounding are quite comparable to people who's entire job is to focus on rebounding and defence is just a fallacy. And guys like Brendan Haywood also don't offer the ability to take over games like Bargnani does. That's not like, an extra. It's a huge ability.


Saying he is capable of 20/10 is really, really stretching it. His rebounding is atrocious. We don't need statistics or any of that crap to tell us otherwise. We watch him with our own eyes. Too often, he is caught out of position and gives up an offensive board and/or easy putback. For a 7 footer, it's embarrassing to be averaging under 7 boards a game. I don't care if his game is perimeter oriented and that limits his rebounding. That's the problem. You don't win in this league with a soft, three point shooter for a big man. I do admit though, that I have always been a bit curious as to how Bargnani would fare with a tough, defensive C and him playing PF. Although I'd much rather have Bosh alongside the defensive C.

How is he uniquely gifted? He is a jump shooting big man with no real rebounding or defensive skills. Plenty of those in the NBA. How can he take over games? He was given his chance to step up and shine when Bosh went down, and he failed miserably. Journeyman role players like Amir Johnson, Jarrett Jack, and Sonny Weems wanted it more than he did. His entire offensive game revolves around his little pump fake and shoot off the dribble, or from the defensive attention that Chris Bosh creates. When he is cold, he continues to jack up ill advised perimeter shots. He has the foot speed to take most big men off the dribble and get to the rim, he just rarely does it. Or he'll do it for a period in the game, then just go back to chucking threes.

[indiefan23]

Saying he is capable of 20/10 is really, really stretching it.

That's why it's called a ceiling. In 35 minutes this year he averaged 17.2 points and 6.2 boards. Say he plays 40 minutes per in his prime. At his current production that is 19.7 PPG and 7.1 boards. If he follows a career path the same as Dirk, meaning he stops shooting so many 3's and plays inside more (note: he's not on Dirk's level, but can follow that path), can he get an extra 3 boards a night? I don't think that's a reach for his prime but a pretty good 'ceiling'. Keep in mind most players don't actually reach their ceilings.


His rebounding is atrocious. We don't need statistics or any of that crap to tell us otherwise. We watch him with our own eyes. Too often, he is caught out of position and gives up an offensive board and/or easy putback. For a 7 footer, it's embarrassing to be averaging under 7 boards a game. I don't care if his game is perimeter oriented and that limits his rebounding.

No, he's not out of position. You are distinctly confusing height for style of play. Offensively they ask Bargnani to play on the perimeter to utilize his accurate shooting from distance. For players who take over 4 3's a game he's 4'th in the entire league in rebounding with only Kevin Durant, Lebron James and Troy Murphy ahead of you. That's pretty good company. You can dislike how Toronto uses Bargnani and what they ask him to do, but stating that he has no ability to rebound and blaming him for 'being out of position' when his coach tells him to be out there is just dumb wether you like his perimeter game or not.


That's the problem. You don't win in this league with a soft, three point shooter for a big man. I do admit though, that I have always been a bit curious as to how Bargnani would fare with a tough, defensive C and him playing PF. Although I'd much rather have Bosh alongside the defensive C.

Yep... how would Bargnani be with someone like KG or maybe like, Al Jefferson with him. That's the real question. I'm guessing his ability to draw bigs out of the paint would be pretty amazing with Jefferson opening the paint for his amazing post-game. Or even a dude like Marcin Gortat would fit nicely in there.


How is he uniquely gifted? He is a jump shooting big man with no real rebounding or defensive skills. Plenty of those in the NBA. How can he take over games? He was given his chance to step up and shine when Bosh went down, and he failed miserably.

Well, he obviously does have rebounding and defensive skills. You don't block the same shots as Duncan, Noah and Perkins if you have no defensive skills. You don't rebound more then 6 boards a game taking over 4 3's unless you're Lebron James, Kevin Durant, Troy Murhpy, or, Andrea Bargnani. If Toronto asked Bargnani to only play defence and rebound, he would have over 2 blocks and 10 boards a game. But they ask him to shoot cuz he's an amazing shooter. His defence has obviously improved pretty dramatically since his personal fouls has decreased considerably while he played 5 more minutes a game.

I mean, so how's he uniquely gifted? Tell me how many other players in the league have a virtually unblockable shot? Not only that, but he can get it off with almost a minimum of effort/movement for a super quick release.

Here's an example of Bargnani taking over a game, with defense actually, during that stretch in which you said he failed horribly. You'll also see him developing the same top of the key mid-range post-up game that Dirk has and them having no answer for it.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=70fELZPMQpg

Again, I'm not saying he's Dirk and it's fair to call him the poor man's Dirk if you want.


Journeyman role players like Amir Johnson, Jarrett Jack, and Sonny Weems wanted it more than he did. His entire offensive game revolves around his little pump fake and shoot off the dribble, or from the defensive attention that Chris Bosh creates.

Yea, or behind the back dribbling into turn around swishes like in the clip. How are Weems and Johnson even journeymen anyway... they are 22 and 23 years old and have each only played on 2 teams.

What you're really saying is that Bosh got hurt, the team lost, so it's somehow Bargnani's fault. Here is a revelation for Toronto fans. Unless your team is stacked, and TO's team is not stacked, if you lose your best player you are going to lose a lot of games in that stretch.

Is Andrea Bargnani ready to fill in for Chris Bosh? No, he's not, but Bosh is in his absolute prime and TO's entire game revolves around him. I'm willing to bet you that if you take any team's leading rebounder and scorer off their team they're going to struggle. You can't just switch the focus of everything at once and expect to win. Maybe if you're LA and stacked but TO is not like that.

Has Bargnani shown progress every season and flashes of a much better player he can become? Absolutely. Look at your complaint here:


When he is cold, he continues to jack up ill advised perimeter shots. He has the foot speed to take most big men off the dribble and get to the rim, he just rarely does it. Or he'll do it for a period in the game, then just go back to chucking threes.

Yea, he's inconsistent, but that's what young players are. When he's hot he has the ability to shoot over 80% from 3 and totally dominate a game. When he learns how to harness that ability and maybe more importantly when TO learns to incorporate his skills in their game plan more, he's got the potential to be an allstar. He absolutely has the ability to be a 20/8 guy and in reality he's there at that ability 'right now'.

Do you know how many 20/8 players are in the league this season? 4. That's it. Amare Stoudamire. Chris Bosh. Zach Randolph. David Lee. Of those guys, no one is even 'close' to blocking 1.5 shots a game. Bosh/Amare both block a single shot a game. David Lee .5. Randolph .4.

Do you know how many players have more points, blocks and rebounds then Bargnani? 3. That's it. Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol and Brook Lopez.

What I don't get about Toronto is why don't you have some patience? The guy grows every year as a player. He's just posted career highs in points, blocks, rebounds and FG% yet you're ripping on him as if he's some kind of team cancer. You've got a player with one of the most unique skill sets in the league and all you do is rip on him when he's very easily got all star potential. When players suck and are terrible, you can't make lists of their stats including them with only 3 guys like Lebron/Durant or three of the very best big men in the league. You can't do it, and Bargnani is only scratching the surface of what he can do.

I think it's no small wonder why players don't want to play for the Raptors. Fans low on faith who turn on you the instant you face any adversity. Stoudamire: requested a trade and left. T-Mac: left. Camby: happy he left. Carter: left running. Hedo: now wants to leave. Bosh: Not looking too happy and pretty much wants to leave. Maybe if you learned to show a little love for the team instead of ripping on everyone for every misgiving you'd keep the all-star players you have for a change.

[Qwyjibo]

That entire long post
You are not putting any of the #'s you are using in context. 6.2 rebounds per game alone means nothing. It could be good, it could be bad. When you add in minutes per game and position, it shows Bargnani to be one of the worst rebounders in the leauge relative to minutes played and position. Josh Smith is a significantly better rebounder than Bargnani. It's not even close. Go look at something like REB% (both ORB and DRB) to get some context on how bad he truly is. I've already posted this stuff in the Raptors board before so I'm not pulling it all up again.

20/10 being possible? Sure. Anything is possible. But unless Bargnani suddenly starts playing 45 minutes per game, I can tell you it is very unlikely. In fact, I'd wager my entire life on it never happening if Bargnani stays in a reasonable 32-36 minutes per game. His career per minute #'s have basically been the same across the board since he came into the NBA. There hasn't been much improvement in terms of actual on-court production. So regardless of who he plays with or against, there is nothing based on his previous performance that would lead any rational person to believe such a huge increase in production. Only if you are banking on him being an exception (like Dirk's improvement in rebounding was).

Context. It matters.

Your posts are some of the worst examples of not using stats properly or manipulating them to suit your argument rather than looking at them objectively. Only 3 players have more combined points,blocks and rebounds? Ok. So what? What does that tell us? That's ESPN-level feeding the casual viewer with cherry-picked meaningless stats. No insight whatsoever. Are points, rebounds, and blocks worth the same if you are simply adding them up? How efficient was each player at getting those points? How many minutes did they play? What were their rebounding percentages? etc.



If Toronto asked Bargnani to only play defence and rebound, he would have over 2 blocks and 10 boards a game.
Again, based on what? Nothing in his NBA career has even come close to suggesting he is capable of this. I'm talking about 4 years worth of evidence so don't cherry pick a game vs Duncan or Howard here and there. I'm pretty sure a 4-year sample size is big enough to get an accurate picture of a player unless he came into the league as a high schooler and has been glued to the bench.


Will his boards go up? History say yes, that's very likely.
Huh? Seriously? What history? Rebounding is the one thing that generally stays constant even going to back college #'s. And for a player going into his 5th season after showing almost no improvement in rebounding during his first 4 years?



And I don't rip on him because I simply don't like the guy or something. I don't care about him. I don't care about any of the Raptors as individual players. I just care about the front of the jersey, Toronto Raptors. Chris Bosh is probably my favourite player right now because he is the best thing going for the Raptors. But once he leaves, I don't care about him and hope he does poorly. There is no loyalty to players with me.

I don't like Bargnani on the team because he is simply not good enough to warrant the contract extension he was given as well as all the backing he gets from managment. But don't get me started on Bryan Colangelo. He is the root of all the problems on the Raptors right now and I've already gone into it many times and probably will again throughout the summer.

[knickscity]

Just curious...who would you guys rather have Bargnani or Gallinari?

[Qwyjibo]

Just curious...who would you guys rather have Bargnani or Gallinari?
Bargnani is a better player right now but Gallinari has barely even played 2 seasons (if you consider minutes). I think I'd take the chance on Gallinari improving a bit because you can actually play him at SF and I'd rather not have Bargnani starting and playing 35 minutes per game as a PF/C.

Bargnani has the game of an SG/SF but clearly can't guard those positions. That's why I think he'd be best suited as a 6th man. Gallinari is already a more efficient overall scorer because he takes and makes so many 3's. I'll take that from an SF.

[Bodhi]

Maybe this offseason the Raptors can sign and trade Bosh for even more soft Euros who don't play defense so that everyone can overhype the team again.

[indiefan23]

You are not putting any of the #'s you are using in context. 6.2 rebounds per game alone means nothing. It could be good, it could be bad. When you add in minutes per game and position, it shows Bargnani to be one of the worst rebounders in the leauge relative to minutes played and position. Josh Smith is a significantly better rebounder than Bargnani. It's not even close. Go look at something like REB% (both ORB and DRB) to get some context on how bad he truly is. I've already posted this stuff in the Raptors board before so I'm not pulling it all up again.

20/10 being possible? Sure. Anything is possible. But unless Bargnani suddenly starts playing 45 minutes per game, I can tell you it is very unlikely. In fact, I'd wager my entire life on it never happening if Bargnani stays in a reasonable 32-36 minutes per game. His career per minute #'s have basically been the same across the board since he came into the NBA. There hasn't been much improvement in terms of actual on-court production. So regardless of who he plays with or against, there is nothing based on his previous performance that would lead any rational person to believe such a huge increase in production. Only if you are banking on him being an exception (like Dirk's improvement in rebounding was).

Context. It matters.


Well context doesn't matter when you ignore it. My 'long post' was context. You're not considering position because in Bargnani's position offensively is not in the paint nearly as much as the other centers in the league. Lets compare DRB to Josh Smith, which you obviously have not. I agree he's a better rebounder then Bargnani, but last year he only had 5.3 DRBs, which is a wopping .4 more DRB's a game. Whoopee!

His per minute numbers have not been the same. WTF are you talking about? Bargnani's career lows /36 minutes are 15.3 pts, 5.6 boards and .7 blocks with 4.1 personal fouls and 2.4 TOs. His last season was 17.7 points, 6.3 boards, 1.4 blocks, 2.8 fouls and 1.5 TOs. Yea, he's playing more minutes because he is learning how to play defence without fouling. I didn't even mention his career high shooting percentage.

I mean, you literally just made up that his numbers have not changed. ;0 Then you accuse me of:


Your posts are some of the worst examples of not using stats properly or manipulating them to suit your argument rather than looking at them objectively. Only 3 players have more combined points,blocks and rebounds? Ok. So what? What does that tell us? That's ESPN-level feeding the casual viewer with cherry-picked meaningless stats.

Cherry picked? No, they are the three most significant cats in the game for a big man. ;0 WTF again. Bargnani's CORE stats have improved, dramatically. FACT!


No insight whatsoever. Are points, rebounds, and blocks worth the same if you are simply adding them up? How efficient was each player at getting those points? How many minutes did they play? What were their rebounding percentages? etc.

No insight? I gave specific insight into how TO's offensive usage of Bargnani reduces his effectiveness on the offensive glass. That's another fact BTW. You keep talking about minutes and rebounding as if Bargnani


Again, based on what? Nothing in his NBA career has even come close to suggesting he is capable of this. I'm talking about 4 years worth of evidence so don't cherry pick a game vs Duncan or Howard here and there. I'm pretty sure a 4-year sample size is big enough to get an accurate picture of a player unless he came into the league as a high schooler and has been glued to the bench.

Well, based on the information I gave you. Can you read? I showed you my entire method to figure that out and you said 'based on what?' ;0


Huh? Seriously? What history? Rebounding is the one thing that generally stays constant even going to back college #'s. And for a player going into his 5th season after showing almost no improvement in rebounding during his first 4 years?

Except he has shown improvement rebounding, especially in his ability to cut his fouls down while doing it allowing him to grab 6.2 RPG instead of 3.9. That's actually a HUGE improvement. Yea he's not pulling down 10 a game but it's his offensive rebounding numbers that are down, and that's cuz he shoots 4 3's a game. You want to pretend like this effect does not exist, but it obviously does. If you shoot 3 pointers you are going to get less boards. FACT!


And I don't rip on him because I simply don't like the guy or something. I don't care about him. I don't care about any of the Raptors as individual players. I just care about the front of the jersey, Toronto Raptors. Chris Bosh is probably my favourite player right now because he is the best thing going for the Raptors. But once he leaves, I don't care about him and hope he does poorly. There is no loyalty to players with me.

You mean the same Chris Bosh who's shown no defensive improvement his entire career? His .8/.6 steals and .9/1.0 blocks per 36 minutes are both pretty much career lows. He actually have more steals and blocks as a rookie playing less minutes. Awesome job Toronto fan! Again, I think you should focus on why he's going to leave instead of when. I could provide you with a mirror for assistance! :)

I love Chris Bosh, but he's more to blame for the defensive hole on the raptors then Bargnani, the developing player is.

Here's a good example of what I'm talking about:


I don't like Bargnani on the team because he is simply not good enough to warrant the contract extension he was given as well as all the backing he gets from managment. But don't get me started on Bryan Colangelo. He is the root of all the problems on the Raptors right now and I've already gone into it many times and probably will again throughout the summer.

Well, had Bosh not been injured the raptors would easily have pushed 50 or more games, gotten home court and guys like you would have been riding their jocks about how 'anything can happen in the playoffs'... a favorite saying in the TO sports world.

[indiefan23]

Maybe this offseason the Raptors can sign and trade Bosh for even more soft Euros who don't play defense so that everyone can overhype the team again.

Heh, seriously, I love Bosh, but he is not a great defender either.

[Qwyjibo]

Except he has shown improvement rebounding, especially in his ability to cut his fouls down while doing it allowing him to grab 6.2 RPG instead of 3.9. That's actually a HUGE improvement. Yea he's not pulling down 10 a game but it's his offensive rebounding numbers that are down, and that's cuz he shoots 4 3's a game. You want to pretend like this effect does not exist, but it obviously does. If you shoot 3 pointers you are going to get less boards. FACT!

(and other stuff)


www.basketball-reference.com

Go look at Bargnani's REB% #'s and you will see a tiny improvement over the first 4 years of his career. Also, go compare it to Josh Smith and see how much of a better rebounder he is. And then, take a look at Bargnani's per minute stats from year to year see the tiny improvements.

Unless you expect a player going into his 5th year to magically explode (incredibly rare), this is it for Bargnani. A solid scorer best suited as a 6th man because when his jump shot is off, there is little positive that he brings to the floor. Seriously, go look at the some of the good forwards in the NBA and see what kind of improvements they made going from their 3rd to 4th to 5th years. Bosh, Boozer, Gasol, West, etc. It's not much if anything at all. Banking on him being an exception to the rule is not a safe bet.

[Mr. Obvious]

Bargnani is just soft.

Floating out on the perimeter shooting jumpshots has nothing to do with it. Guys like Troy Murphy, Dirk Nowitzki, Antawn Jamison, Mehmet Okur, Yi Jianlian, Ersan Ilyasova, etc... are better rebounders on similar or less minutes per game.... and all of those players attempt alot of 3pters.

Some players know how to rebound, some don't and are just too soft. Bargnani is just too soft and gets thrown in the heap with Rashard Lewis, Boris Diaw, Jeff Green, and all the rest of the softies that play 30+ in minutes a game, yet suck at rebounding.

As for his defense, I don't blame him if you have a coach/team that never commits to teaching defense... but no reason a starting PF/C can't grab 7 or more boards a game on 30 minutes+.

[indiefan23]

www.basketball-reference.com

Go look at Bargnani's REB% #'s and you will see a tiny improvement over the first 4 years of his career. Also, go compare it to Josh Smith and see how much of a better rebounder he is. And then, take a look at Bargnani's per minute stats from year to year see the tiny improvements.

Unless you expect a player going into his 5th year to magically explode (incredibly rare), this is it for Bargnani. A solid scorer best suited as a 6th man because when his jump shot is off, there is little positive that he brings to the floor. Seriously, go look at the some of the good forwards in the NBA and see what kind of improvements they made going from their 3rd to 4th to 5th years. Bosh, Boozer, Gasol, West, etc. It's not much if anything at all. Banking on him being an exception to the rule is not a safe bet.

Heh, you keep going on about his per minute stats. Bargnani's problem when he came into the league was that defensively he couldn't play without fouling guys and it cut his minutes. He's improved dramatically at that.

As for his percentages you fail to mention that he just shot a career high % from the field. But aside from that his rebound percentage is going to be dramatically affected by shooting the 3's and playing outside the same way his rebound totals are. His defensive rebound percentage is around 16%. Josh Smith in his prime is a better rebounder then Bargnani before he's hit his, duh, but like, last year Smith's DRB% was 17.6 compared to Bargnani's 16.4. That's not dramatic at all.

I don't get what your point is about other bigs 4'th to 5'th year. By their 5'th year most players have reached their potential and plateau. Some like you listed take a little longer to get there. And Most don't have the talent to make it.

What I see in Bargnani is NOT a lack of talent like you keep saying, it's a lack of consistency and the FACT is that Bargnani has become much, much more consistent in his play on a game to game basis. This is reflected in his per game stats which you continue to ignore.

He still has lots more room to grow into though. The cool thing about him too is since his game is based on skill and not overt freakish athleticism it means once he hits his plateau he'll be able to stay there much longer then most players. He'll have that high post turn around jumper in 11 years when he's 35. It will be automatic. Josh Smith will not be able to jump out of the gym and is going to be retired or coming off the pine.

I don't get how you just look to flawed stats like rebound %. I mean, you're comparing apples and oranges. Yea, Kendrick Perkins has a better rebound percentage but it's because he plays under the hoop and only focuses on that and lacks the talent to do what Bargnani does. I mean, don't you see you're slamming his because he has skills? Could he pull down an extra 1.9 boards if he played under the hoop all the time and that's all he spent his energy doing to match Perkins? ;0

It's a pretty obvious yes. You keep implying that Bargnani does not even try on defence. How do you ignore that he blocks an extra half shot more then Bosh a game? Why don't you criticize Bosh for his obvious defensive decline over the years?

[indiefan23]

Bargnani is just soft.

Floating out on the perimeter shooting jumpshots has nothing to do with it. Guys like Troy Murphy, Dirk Nowitzki, Antawn Jamison, Mehmet Okur, Yi Jianlian, Ersan Ilyasova, etc... are better rebounders on similar or less minutes per game.... and all of those players attempt alot of 3pters.

Some players know how to rebound, some don't and are just too soft. Bargnani is just too soft and gets thrown in the heap with Rashard Lewis, Boris Diaw, Jeff Green, and all the rest of the softies that play 30+ in minutes a game, yet suck at rebounding.



Shooting jumpers has everything to do with offensive rebounding. If you're 20 feet away from the rim shooting a ball and people are 2 feet from the rim, who do you think is going to get the board? ;0 Don't be ridiculous. Bargnani takes a LOT of jumpers. Over 4 from 3. Troy Murphy takes over that and rebounds more. But everyone else's ratio is.

3PA/DRG/ORG/TPG
Jamison: 3.2/5.5/1.5/7
Dirk: 1.5/6.7/1.0/7.7
Yi: 0.8/5.6/2.5/8.1
Memo: 2.9/5.2/1.8/8
Murphy: 4.6/8.4/1.8/10.2
Barg: 4.2/5.0/1.4/6.3


Keep in mind that guys like Dirk/Jamison/Memo/Murphy are still in their primes here too. The only guy who's even close to taking that many jumpers and rebounding at an elite level is Murphy. Jamison gets half a board more and .1 offensive boards more while taking 1 fewer 3's and playing MUCH closer to the hoop. Dirk takes 65% fewer 3's and rebounds far fewer offensive boards. You can see a big difference with Yi who's not that much of a better rebounder on the defensive end but yanks down way more offensive boards since he plays closer to the hoop. Is Memo a better rebounder? Not defensively where he only gets .2 more boards a game, but he takes 1.3 fewer 3's, players closer to the hole and even then he's not even 1 total board over Bargnani and only .4 more defensively.

Again, if you want to suggest they should tell Bargnani to not shoot as much that's fine, but suggesting he's some kind of soft crappy rebounder and it's not shooting but his lack of rebounding talent is pretty silly when he's boarding right there with just about everyone you listed before he's even hit his prime. His low rebounding numbers are a direct result of his shooting role on the team. Look at what you're saying:


As for his defense, I don't blame him if you have a coach/team that never commits to teaching defense... but no reason a starting PF/C can't grab 7 or more boards a game on 30 minutes+.

He's what. .8 boards away from 7 boards. ;0 Come on. He's a better rebounder then most of those guys you mentioned. If he was shooting .8 3's like Yi intead of four more (which means he's taking loads of deep jumpers too) then he easily out-rebounds him. The difference between a strong/weak rebounder is NOT .2 boards on the defensive end. ;0

Just to clarify, I don't think Bargnani is likely going to be a superstar or franchise player of a championship team. I just don't think he's this talentless bum which is the mold you're trying to push him into. He's a talented two way player with a very bright future. The best case scenario for TO is he becomes an all star. The worst case scenario is he continues to develop and scores them someone useful in a trade. Of course if TO gets anyone useful they won't want to stay once the fans start hating on him too. ;0

[indiefan23]

Seriously Beasted86, u called me out to come here, now you don't show up? ;0

[Mr. Obvious]

Again, if you want to suggest they should tell Bargnani to not shoot as much that's fine, but suggesting he's some kind of soft crappy rebounder and it's not shooting but his lack of rebounding talent is pretty silly
No... no... Bargnani is just a soft crappy rebounder.

Per 48 minutes, he's by far the worst rebounding starting Center in the NBA, and it isn't close. There are 97 Centers in the whole NBA, including bench guys, and he ranks 90th in entire league per 48. He's also dead last among starters.

There's no stat that better clarifies how bad he is. The only post player I consider far worse than him who gets 30+ minutes is Rashard Lewis. Both him and Bargnani need to seek rebounding coaches and work on only that the entire summer, because otherwise their offense is mostly fine. I don't care how many 3s both of them take. They plain suck rebounding and are soft.

[Nito]

The problem is that Bargnani is standing around the 3 point line shooting 3 pointers. The raptors don't need this in a center - they need someone who will hold down the paint inside.


Bargnani plays more like a shooting guard/small forward. We need a center, not an oversized wing player.

[indiefan23]

The problem is that Bargnani is standing around the 3 point line shooting 3 pointers. The raptors don't need this in a center - they need someone who will hold down the paint inside.


Bargnani plays more like a shooting guard/small forward. We need a center, not an oversized wing player.

Uh... again, you seem to think this is about Bargnani's abilities but what you're complaining about is how the Raptors are using him. He shot 47% last season which is a fantastic percentage for someone who shoots a lot of jumpers. I mean, you do realize that Bargnani is a very good offensive player, right? People constantly assume that someone's height dictates how they 'should' play. The best power forward ever was 6'4". The best Point Guard ever was 6'8". I mean, don't you see the value in a guy who demands the other team's defensive anchor guard him closely outside of the paint?

You need someone who holds down the paint inside, sure, but defensively Bargnani blocks as many shots as Duncan and Joakim Noah. I'm not saying he is those guys defensively, but he's surely not the guy you're pointing him out to be which is the reason TO's defence sucks.

[indiefan23]

No... no... Bargnani is just a soft crappy rebounder.

Per 48 minutes, he's by far the worst rebounding starting Center in the NBA, and it isn't close. There are 97 Centers in the whole NBA, including bench guys, and he ranks 90th in entire league per 48. He's also dead last among starters.

First things first, Bargnani is actually listed as (and plays more like) a forward, not a center. It's pretty normal for centers to get more boards cuz they play closer to the hoop. That's a big duh right there.

Per 48 minutes? ;0 Joey Dorsey is the best rebounder in the league according to that. ;0 WTF. Secondly he takes loads of perimeter shots which limit his boards. Another forward who plays like he does is Danny Granger who Bargnani totally out rebounds. Or Mello who he out boards. Rashard Lewis who he out boards. Or Paul Pierce who he outboards. Bargnani can shoot and he rebounds better then almost everyone in the entire league who can/does shoot as well.

I mean, you're comparing him to Perkins who's 'only' job is to play D and rebound and claiming it's a fair comparison cuz they are the same position when 1. They are NOT the same position and 2. their game is entirely different.


There's no stat that better clarifies how bad he is. The only post player I consider far worse than him who gets 30+ minutes is Rashard Lewis. Both him and Bargnani need to seek rebounding coaches and work on only that the entire summer, because otherwise their offense is mostly fine. I don't care how many 3s both of them take. They plain suck rebounding and are soft.

Rebounding coaches? ;0 Christ... Bargnani pulls down 5.0 rebounds a game and has drastically improved his game to do that. I don't care about your per minute numbers. Danny Forston had some of the best per minute rebounding numbers ever but couldn't stay on the floor. It's crazy how far you guys reach to defend your opinions and pretend they are not arbitrary. Bargnani 'has' improved loads. The team is still built like crap and you can barely tell the difference.

[SprtsTmeMachine]

Things will get interesting if they are able to move Turkiglu and his bad contract. It is hard to think their would be too many takers unless the Raptors demanded little value in return. I can't figure out if Derozan can actually play or not. There is no questioning his athleticism but his production at UCLA and with Toronto led me to believe he has a long way to go

The videos on this website just crack me up

http://themid-rangepull-up.blogspot.com/2010/05/toronto-raptors-off-season-shake-up.html

[indiefan23]

Things will get interesting if they are able to move Turkiglu and his bad contract. It is hard to think their would be too many takers unless the Raptors demanded little value in return. I can't figure out if Derozan can actually play or not. There is no questioning his athleticism but his production at UCLA and with Toronto led me to believe he has a long way to go

The videos on this website just crack me up

http://themid-rangepull-up.blogspot.com/2010/05/toronto-raptors-off-season-shake-up.html

Yep, agree about Hedo. He's a good player but a total defensive liability. On Orlando Dwight makes up for that. Getting more offensive instead of defensive was the mistake this season. Again, if they had signed/dealt for a real post player instead of Evans (who admittedly was injured most of the season) they would have done much better on that end. That being said, they were among the conference leaders at once point before Bosh was hurt. Had he not been they would have made the playoffs easily. 50 games was in range.

[bokes15]

No... no... Bargnani is just a soft crappy rebounder.

Per 48 minutes, he's by far the worst rebounding starting Center in the NBA, and it isn't close. There are 97 Centers in the whole NBA, including bench guys, and he ranks 90th in entire league per 48. He's also dead last among starters.

There's no stat that better clarifies how bad he is. The only post player I consider far worse than him who gets 30+ minutes is Rashard Lewis. Both him and Bargnani need to seek rebounding coaches and work on only that the entire summer, because otherwise their offense is mostly fine. I don't care how many 3s both of them take. They plain suck rebounding and are soft.
The funny thing is, Bargnani actually did seek someone to help him with D and rebounding. It's not a matter of not having the ability or not knowing what to do, it's clearly just a matter of desire and will..

[indiefan23]

The funny thing is, Bargnani actually did seek someone to help him with D and rebounding. It's not a matter of not having the ability or not knowing what to do, it's clearly just a matter of desire and will..

Man, I don't get it. If you guys watch Bargnani as a rook and soph, and watch him this past season his defence and rebounding has improved leaps and bounds. He's much smarter and more comfortable. I mean, he's not the DPOY or anything, but he's also on a very, very poor defensive team which regularly fails to box out players crashing the boards among a million other things. You say it's desire and will but no one here even responds to how Josh Smith is not THAT much of a better defensive rebounder or how there are only 3 players in the league taking as many 3's as him and rebounding better. Troy Murphy, Lebron James and Kevin Durant. And of those 3 only Murphy has shot better from 3. Except Murphy is in his absolute prime and Bargnani is not even touching his yet. Lebron and Durant are possibly the best players in the game. It's like you guys just 'want' to hate him so you make up amorphous statements about desire and ignore the fact that he's improved loads.

[Grey Dawn]

For the stat hounds, Bargnani's stats could 'jump leaps and bounds' this year if Bosh is gone. He will pick up all kinds of padding stats, for example Bosh has always been their 'default' defensive rebounder, where he'd pick up 5+ rebounds a game just from being the guy that grabs uncontested rebounds. If Bargnani fills in for that role, instant HUGE increase in rebounding #s. Now I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it does say something about stats and being aware of how the team actually functions.

And Bargs has shown signs of offensive (posting, aggressiveness) and defensive (man-on-man, blocks) improvement, particularly in the 09-10 season, his biggest problem seems to be that he 'spaces out' far too often, which is an issue of will/determination/attention rather than of talent or ability.

[indiefan23]

For the stat hounds, Bargnani's stats could 'jump leaps and bounds' this year if Bosh is gone. He will pick up all kinds of padding stats, for example Bosh has always been their 'default' defensive rebounder, where he'd pick up 5+ rebounds a game just from being the guy that grabs uncontested rebounds. If Bargnani fills in for that role, instant HUGE increase in rebounding #s. Now I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it does say something about stats and being aware of how the team actually functions.

And Bargs has shown signs of offensive (posting, aggressiveness) and defensive (man-on-man, blocks) improvement, particularly in the 09-10 season, his biggest problem seems to be that he 'spaces out' far too often, which is an issue of will/determination/attention rather than of talent or ability.

Heh, I almost find your post funny cuz it's not filled with hate or homerism. Don't you know this is ISH? ;0 I agree just about fully. Bargnani has oodles of talent, especially offensively. It will be interesting to see if he can reach his potential. I think he's capable of making an all star team honestly. We'll see though.