Michael Jordan jumper % or shot chart?

[stephanieg]

Nowadays there are advanced stat sites (e.g. 82games) which break down players in fine detail, e.g. Player X shoots 43% from mid-range jumpers, 75% in close shots, and so on. And shot charts are always fun.

Does anything like this exist for MJ? I'd love to know what he hit on mid-range J's in '96.

[Dasher]

I have looked for some. If they were kept, it was probably by the Bulls' assistant coaching staff. I have not found any from his Bulls days on the web. Maybe his entrance into the HOF will get this info released if it still exists.The only thing I found from his Wiz days was this:http://www.hicstatistics.org/2003StatsProceedings/DeMarc%20Hickson.pdf. I haven't read it yet, but it seems like a good read.

[Psileas]

Τhis thing can't be done unless they track all his games and shots from that season. They started adding this collective data to 82games from as early as 2005, iirc. I'm sure there may be a couple of people who managed to find advanced shooting stats for specific players before 2005, but if 82games is to deal with this, they'll probably need to do it for the whole league, which will take a lot of time.

Think of it this way: Basketball-reference struggles to find even boxscores before '87 (and they used to struggle to find boxscores even before '92). Imagine how much someone would struggle to find things like hot zones for every single game of these older seasons. Only the NBA itself would be able to finish such a project during some logical time frame.

[stephanieg]

I know Psileas but there are some pretty devoted Bulls / MJ fans out there who have entire seasons on tape. I figured there's an outside shot that someone somewhere did something like that just for MJ.

[Da_Realist]

I know Psileas but there are some pretty devoted Bulls / MJ fans out there who have entire seasons on tape. I figured there's an outside shot that someone somewhere did something like that just for MJ.

:oldlol: NOBODY is that crazy.

[Da KO King]

:oldlol: NOBODY is that crazy.
You haven't been on ISH very long have you? :oldlol: Don't be shocked if you get a shot charting breakdown before Barack Obama gets sworn into office.

[Psileas]

Originally Posted by stephanieg
I know Psileas but there are some pretty devoted Bulls / MJ fans out there who have entire seasons on tape. I figured there's an outside shot that someone somewhere did something like that just for MJ.

Yeah, like I said, a couple of people may have done this for their favorite player. Don't tell anyone, but I'm talking about Loki and Hoop/pedia (actually, the reason Loki hasn't responded yet is because he's searching for these archives right now :D ).

[chains5000]

You should ask BULLS, he's got every NBA game ever on tape.

[Loki]

Nothing like this exists, obviously. It's easier now to collect the data going forward because they keep shot chart logs for each game for every player. The only way to do this, as others have said, is to watch all 82 games from a given season and mark it down by hand, which would be incredibly laborious. Also, very few people (even me :D) have full seasons for any of the Jordan Bulls years. I think the years I have the most games from are '97 and '98 because I had League Pass then, and even then I "only" have about 30-40 regular season games from each season on tape.

I mean, you could do it for the 15-20-30-whatever number of games you have for a season, which would be a bit easier, but it'd still be incredibly time consuming.

[gts]

Basketball on Paper By Dean Oliver has a chapter on scoring games by hand and doing shot charts..he uses one of the bulls jazz games as an example, and shows the break down

[PHILA]

"Wilt was big on stats. One time he called me up and said, 'You know, Harvey, Michael Jordan can't hit a shot beyond 15 feet?'

I said, 'How do you know that?'

He said to me, 'Don't you watch the games?'

I said, 'I don't watch stuff like that. How do you know?'

He said, 'I watch it.'

So, during the height of Michael's career, I got the play-by-play of the first 20 Bulls games and I checked the distance of every shot Jordan took during the season and sure enough, he was shooting 38 percent from 15 feet back. So, I did 20 more and came up with the same result. So then I said, if I did 40, I might as well do 82. Wilt’s appraisal was perfect. From 13 feet back (Jordan) was 37.8 percent.

Then Wilt said, 'Jordan doesn't take any shots from seven feet in, all of those shots are drives to the basket. He doesn't take five or six footers. He goes right to the hoop.'

I tried 20 more games and ended up looking at the entire season and got the same results. Wilt's analysis held up.

Wilt was a student of the game. People don't know that. He knew everything that was going on.

Another season, Wilt said that the refs never called any traveling violations on Jordan. Wilt was after Jordan for some reason. I checked the play by plays and Wilt was right. Jordan was called only for four traveling violations.

Whenever Wilt came out with a book, he always credited me with the stats. I'm referenced throughout his books."

Pat Riley said the NBA doesn’t keep field goal percentage right. They should separate the (two-point shots) from the (three-point shots). They separate the three’s, but overall they don’t separate the two’s. So one of the categories I keep is field goal percentage for two’s. Charles Barkley was the leader in the two-point category for years."

-Harvey Pollack

[The_Yearning]

Nothing like this exists, obviously. It's easier now to collect the data going forward because they keep shot chart logs for each game for every player. The only way to do this, as others have said, is to watch all 82 games from a given season and mark it down by hand, which would be incredibly laborious. Also, very few people (even me :D) have full seasons for any of the Jordan Bulls years. I think the years I have the most games from are '97 and '98 because I had League Pass then, and even then I "only" have about 30-40 regular season games from each season on tape.

I mean, you could do it for the 15-20-30-whatever number of games you have for a season, which would be a bit easier, but it'd still be incredibly time consuming.

Why did this guy get banned?

[ashbelly]

[QUOTE=PHILA][I]"Wilt was big on stats. One time he called me up and said, 'You know, Harvey, Michael Jordan can't hit a shot beyond 15 feet?'

I said, 'How do you know that?'

He said to me, 'Don't you watch the games?'

I said, 'I don't watch stuff like that. How do you know?'

He said, 'I watch it.'

So, during the height of Michael's career, I got the play-by-play of the first 20 Bulls games and I checked the distance of every shot Jordan took during the season and sure enough, he was shooting 38 percent from 15 feet back. So, I did 20 more and came up with the same result. So then I said, if I did 40, I might as well do 82. Wilt

[PHILA]

This article made Wilt sound like he was scared of Mike's greatness.. :roll: Same trend is happening right now against Lebron :roll:

Indeed he as well as other greats from that era have held a rightful grudge as most of what they did was taken for granted at the time and now is shamefully dismissed by the misinformed basketball fans.





The best team I ever saw was the 1967 Sixers. Everything today is geared for the offensive player. Open the middle so he can drive. You can't put your hand on a guy's back. Can you imagine me in the paint with only one guy on me and he can't put his hands on me and nobody's beside me? Michael Jordan is a bit older and he walks all the time, but the referees allow it. He's not going to come through dunking the basketball on Luke Jackson. He's going to get slammed to the floor. I'd like to see Wali Jones playing defense on him, driving him into me. I'd be more than happy to see that."

-1996



"He's 6'6, 196 lbs. Coming into our domain, the pivot, would not have been very wise of Michael. I don't think, I know he would have been crushed back then. During my time, if you did a 360 dunk you would either be on knocked on you ass or benched. It was called hot-dogging back then."

-1997



"I'm not a big fan of Michael Jordan's because he never led the league in field goal percentage. If you take the dunk out of his game, his percentage will be even lower."

-1997

[Soothsayer]

Indeed he as well as other greats from that era have held a rightful grudge as most of what they did was taken for granted at the time and now is shamefully dismissed by the misinformed basketball fans.





The best team I ever saw was the 1967 Sixers. Everything today is geared for the offensive player. Open the middle so he can drive. You can't put your hand on a guy's back. Can you imagine me in the paint with only one guy on me and he can't put his hands on me and nobody's beside me? Michael Jordan is a bit older and he walks all the time, but the referees allow it. He's not going to come through dunking the basketball on Luke Jackson. He's going to get slammed to the floor. I'd like to see Wali Jones playing defense on him, driving him into me. I'd be more than happy to see that."

-1996



"He's 6'6, 196 lbs. Coming into our domain, the pivot, would not have been very wise of Michael. I don't think, I know he would have been crushed back then. During my time, if you did a 360 dunk you would either be on knocked on you ass or benched. It was called hot-dogging back then."

-1997



"I'm not a big fan of Michael Jordan's because he never led the league in field goal percentage. If you take the dunk out of his game, his percentage will be even lower."

-1997



Yes, we know Wilt was a bitter old man, with incorrect information and uninformed opinions. Thank you for reminding us.

[iamgine]

I wanna see Kareem's Skyhook %age. They like to show him making it but I bet it's a low percentage shot.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Nowadays there are advanced stat sites (e.g. 82games) which break down players in fine detail, e.g. Player X shoots 43% from mid-range jumpers, 75% in close shots, and so on. And shot charts are always fun.

Does anything like this exist for MJ? I'd love to know what he hit on mid-range J's in '96.

They didn't keep such stats back then (certain teams and coaches did, and certainly Elias Sports Bureau did, but that's private data).

The only such stat I've ever heard for Jordan was from a game in the 1997 ECF vs. Miami, where Marv Albert or whoever said that Pat Riley and his assistants analyzed Jordan throughout the season and found that he hit 47-48% of his jumpers (it was either 47 or 48%) with a hand in his face, but something like 62-63% without a hand in his face (for example, either an open shot or a late closeout, a non-challenge on a post up fadeaway etc.). Pretty sure the game is up on youtube.

[Crystallas]

I know Psileas but there are some pretty devoted Bulls / MJ fans out there who have entire seasons on tape. I figured there's an outside shot that someone somewhere did something like that just for MJ.


I have some of 89-92 and all of 92-98 on tape. That's a boatload to sort through.

[YAWN]

Why did this guy get banned?
he is still here under: OldSchoolBBall

[magnax1]

I have looked for some. If they were kept, it was probably by the Bulls' assistant coaching staff. I have not found any from his Bulls days on the web. Maybe his entrance into the HOF will get this info released if it still exists.The only thing I found from his Wiz days was this:http://www.hicstatistics.org/2003StatsProceedings/DeMarc%20Hickson.pdf. I haven't read it yet, but it seems like a good read.
That was actually interesting to read. It said that Jordan actually shot a better % in a mid range shot the a shot close, but not directly under the basket. Of course its from his Wizard years and it'd probably be way different during his early years.

I wanna see Kareem's Skyhook %age. They like to show him making it but I bet it's a low percentage shot.
I bet it was probably 45-50% depending on where he shot it, which considering how easy it was to get off is pretty good. I can't say for certain, but thats what it seemed.

[Fatal9]

What year is that Wilt-Pollack story from? Has to be in the 80s because otherwise those numbers seem really off. MJ shot 43% from (shortened) three for a season but shot only 37% on shots 13+ feet back? That would make Lebron's jumpshot better than MJ's. It doesn't make sense at all and I think Pollack is taking some liberties (like with most Wilt stories).


I wanna see Kareem's Skyhook %age. They like to show him making it but I bet it's a low percentage shot.
You must have only watched him play from '87-'89 when his skyhook noticeably got worse (no lift). Kareem is the most efficient scorer in history, has the most efficient 30+ ppg season and 30+ ppg playoff runs, and he damn sure didn't do it on a "low percentage shot". I think it would be as high as around 50% in some seasons.

[OldSchoolBBall]

What year is that Wilt-Pollack story from?

Supposedly it's from '87, but I think it's BS. Anyone can watch his games from that season to see that he's shooting well above that from that distance.

[Fatal9]

Supposedly it's from '87, but I think it's BS. Anyone can watch his games from that season to see that he's shooting well above that from that distance.
I can almost believe it then if it's '87. A lot of MJ's offense was coming from drives and leaning jumpers from inside 15 feet at that stage.

[EastCaliChillin]

They didn't keep such stats back then (certain teams and coaches did, and certainly Elias Sports Bureau did, but that's private data).

The only such stat I've ever heard for Jordan was from a game in the 1997 ECF vs. Miami, where Marv Albert or whoever said that Pat Riley and his assistants analyzed Jordan throughout the season and found that he hit 47-48% of his jumpers (it was either 47 or 48%) with a hand in his face, but something like 62-63% without a hand in his face (for example, either an open shot or a late closeout, a non-challenge on a post up fadeaway etc.). Pretty sure the game is up on youtube.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
I knew you were a Jordan Fan Boy but Damn! You cant belive them bullsh*t numbers you just posted. Throw lay-ups and dunks in and that would equate to him shooting 60-70% Lmao.
I thought Lebron fan boys were bad SMH

[jlauber]

POLLACK is THE most RESPECTED statistician in the history of the NBA. In fact he was responsible for many of the stats that we have today. How accurate was he? He had an SI reporter track a game between Russell and Wilt, and the Boston scorekeeper had Russell with more rebounds. Pollack had Wilt with considerably more. The SI reporter confirmed that Pollack's number were EXACT. In fact, because of that, Auerbach did not speak to Pollack for years. That article that Abe posted was in 2009. Now, I could not determine what season it was from, but we know that Wilt died in 1999. As for Jordan's 3pt shooting...take away the seasons in which the NBA moved in the 3pt line, and he was a career .288 3pt shooter.

Kareem was probably well in the 50% range with his sky-hook. As Fatal9 pointed out, he had some of the most efficient 30+ ppg seasons in NBA history (although he had some low percentage seasons in the mid-70's.) And I don't consider Kareem's 80's season's FG% marks as overly impressive, since the entire NBA was shooting nearly 50%. And, Kareem only led the NBA in FG% ONE season.

As for Pollack's stats...take a look at this. Probably the most extensive collection of NBA stats anywhere...

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/03/08/Harvey.Pollack.20090308/

"Yet statistics is Pollack's claim to fame. That's what landed him a distinguished place in the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame in 2002 as a John Bunn Award recipient. No one in the field of statistics has had a greater impact in the history of the game than Pollack. Pollack was keeping such statistics as minutes played, blocked shots, offensive and defensive rebounds, steals and turnovers long before the league made it part of the official boxscore."



http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/Pollack_200607_Stats.pdf

[Soothsayer]

POLLACK is THE most RESPECTED statistician in the history of the NBA. In fact he was responsible for many of the stats that we have today. How accurate was he? He had an SI reporter track a game between Russell and Wilt, and the Boston scorekeeper had Russell with more rebounds. Pollack had Wilt with considerably more. The SI reporter confirmed that Pollack's number were EXACT. In fact, because of that, Auerbach did not speak to Pollack for years. That article that Abe posted was in 2009. Now, I could not determine what season it was from, but we know that Wilt died in 1999. As for Jordan's 3pt shooting...take away the seasons in which the NBA moved in the 3pt line, and he was a career .288 3pt shooter.

Kareem was probably well in the 50% range with his sky-hook. As Fatal9 pointed out, he had some of the most efficient 30+ ppg seasons in NBA history (although he had some low percentage seasons in the mid-70's.) And I don't consider Kareem's 80's season's FG% marks as overly impressive, since the entire NBA was shooting nearly 50%. And, Kareem only led the NBA in FG% ONE season.

As for Pollack's stats...take a look at this. Probably the most extensive collection of NBA stats anywhere...

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/03/08/Harvey.Pollack.20090308/

"Yet statistics is Pollack's claim to fame. That's what landed him a distinguished place in the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame in 2002 as a John Bunn Award recipient. No one in the field of statistics has had a greater impact in the history of the game than Pollack. Pollack was keeping such statistics as minutes played, blocked shots, offensive and defensive rebounds, steals and turnovers long before the league made it part of the official boxscore."



http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/Pollack_200607_Stats.pdf


Irrelevant. Those stats may have been accurate for Jordan for a single season early in his career, but are FAR from accurate from the late 80s onward. As well, they are even inaccurate for Jordan in college.

The college 3PT line is 19'9". In 82-83, Jordan shot .447 from behind that line. So much for Pollack and Wilt's fantasies. :banana: